YWAM & Boot Camp Christianity? A Former Insider Speaks Out | Podcast Episode 596 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Paul explore the history, theology, and culture of Youth With A Mission (YWAM), examining its Pentecostal roots, Discipleship Training School model, and long-term impact on young adults. Drawing from firsthand experience, Paul reflects on inner healing practices, financial faith models, Seven Mountains influence, and how mission culture intersects with modern Pentecostalism.  This conversation also addresses broader themes within charismatic Christianity — including the legacy of the Latter Rain movement, the Assemblies of God response, miracle culture, leadership dynamics, and the tension between spiritual enthusiasm and critical thinking. Whether you are researching YWAM, Pentecostal history, or the New Apostolic Reformation, this discussion provides thoughtful insight without sensationalism.  00:00 Introduction 01:27 Paul Hibbs Introduces His YWAM Background 07:00 How a Moderate Pentecostal Viewed YWAM 09:23 Defining Extreme Pentecostalism 10:41 Miracles, Healings, and Spiritual Discernment 16:40 What YWAM Was Like on the Base 17:27 Inner Healing, Trauma, and Psychological Concerns 19:28 Food, Hardship, and Base Life 22:46 Boot Camp Culture and Being Broken Down 29:11 Power, Authoritarianism, and Seven Mountains Questions 31:17 The Theological DNA of YWAM 34:27 What the Mission Actually Was 38:02 Why “Youth” Meant Young Adults 40:13 Critical Thinking, Hearing God, and Rational Judgment 42:20 Financial Sacrifice and Long-Term Consequences 49:33 Life on the Base and Separation From Ordinary Church Life 52:25 Advice for Parents and Young Adults Considering YWAM ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Paul Hibbs, formerly involved with YWAM.

00:47Paul, it's good to have you on and to talk about Youth with a Mission and all of the intricate

00:53details within.

00:54You probably know this.

00:56I've been communicating with Jenny and a couple of others who have escaped YWAM, and it's a broad array of

01:02stories.

01:03I have some people who say it was devastating to their lives, and their experience is their experience.

01:09I can't argue with that.

01:10But I have other people contacting me who say, no, it wasn't that bad on our base.

01:15And so there's a wide variety of things, and I'm trying to unpack that.

01:20How do you make sense of that?

01:21And you give another view into this, so I'm very glad to have you on.

01:24If you could just take a moment and introduce yourself.

01:27Yes, I'm Paul Hibbs.

01:28I'm residing in Greymouth, New Zealand, which is on the South Island, West Coast.

01:33And I've been a Christian since I was a young kid, really.

01:37I grew up in what's called the Anglican Church.

01:41In the States, what would be closest to that would be the probably Episcopalian Church.

01:46I had a solid upbringing in Christianity.

01:50From a young age, we were saying our prayers, but I would say that I became a Christian about

01:55the age of nine on my own accord.

01:57No one pushed me to go to church or anything like that.

02:00I was mainly, I ended up reading some Bible story books for kids that were actually put

02:07out and turned out later on.

02:08I found out that it was through the Seventh-day Adventists.

02:10But we actually used them in the Sunday school that I went to with the Anglican Church.

02:15But they were very good, I thought, and I believe by reading those.

02:20So then I went through my teenage years in youth group at the church.

02:24And then after that, I went off to live in Wellington in New Zealand and went to a Baptist

02:30church there.

02:31I didn't consider any one denomination as being the true one.

02:36So yeah, and we knew about YWAM in the churches.

02:41This was back in the 80s, so it's a while ago now, quite a while ago.

02:45But YWAM was quite well known in New Zealand.

02:48It was actually, I understand from what I've read, in about the mid-60s, they started bases

02:55overseas and New Zealand was one of the first to have bases.

03:00So yeah, I knew about YWAM from my early years, and I felt the call to go.

03:06So I went and joined a discipleship training school in Christchurch, New Zealand, in September

03:121987.

03:15And when you go, you sign up, you know what to expect.

03:18You knew, because I say the YWAM was well known in New Zealand, and it was known as being

03:23the school itself, was known as being a test, you know, people would be challenged, character

03:31was meant to be developed on that school.

03:34So you knew you were probably going to get a bit of, asked to do things you didn't want

03:39to do necessarily.

03:40Not bad, but there were some stories that you'd hear back of how leaders could be a little

03:45bit heavy-handed.

03:47Now, and also there were things like, you'd sign up, when you signed up, if you were single,

03:52you would just agree to the time that you were on the school, that you would not form

03:56romantic relationships with other people in the school.

03:59And to me, that was, you knew that ahead of time, it wasn't, to me it wasn't controlling,

04:04and you were basically, if you had thought it through, you were setting yourself apart to

04:09seek the Lord, and to change, and grow in the Lord, and learn.

04:16And the school that I went to, I didn't, for me, I didn't find anything too untoward.

04:22I found the people personable, the leaders were fine.

04:27I'm not the, I didn't come from the rebellious background, but some did.

04:32Just the personalities.

04:34So, but there were some things I felt, in hindsight, were a little bit, that weren't

04:40the best way of doing things.

04:43I suppose we've talked often about hearing from God, and some of the practices of confession

04:49of sin, and that sort of thing, I think would have been handled better.

04:54So that's a basic summary of my involvement with YOM.

04:57I then, what happened was, I stayed on after the school, because what happened was, my

05:03mother took ill with cancer, and I flew back from the outreach early, to support her in

05:09Christchurch.

05:10She was living here in Greymouth, but they got across to Christchurch for hospital work.

05:14And the base staff were very helpful, very, very supportive.

05:18And I stayed on with what was called support work, where I'd go, I went off and got a factory

05:25job for a while, and paid the money into the base, and they gave me an allowance, and free

05:29board, and food.

05:31You'd help out still with duties and stuff.

05:34And then, as time went by, I moved on to living a normal, you know, I might call it, just

05:42exited

05:44YOM involvement.

05:46Kept in contact with some people.

05:48So that's a basic summary of what my involvement with YOM was.

05:53I did go later on to visit a friend in India, and she was based in Kolkata, or now they

06:00call

06:00it Kolkata, I think it is, or Kolkata, if I change the name.

06:04That was an experience.

06:06She was doing what was called primary health care.

06:09And I got to see some of the work they were doing, which I thought was very good.

06:13They went down to a couple of slums where they were helping with, particularly with children,

06:18get proper nutrition.

06:20I don't know how effective it was long term, but it was quite impressive what they were

06:26doing.

06:28So, yeah, that was a basic summary of my involvement with Waiwai.

06:31It was not a huge, long time, and I was certainly not in leadership or working for them for many

06:37years or having to get support work, you know, because you had to pay your own way.

06:43And some people were, you know, base fees could be quite expensive.

06:47So there was a lot of people who had to, if they were a full-time YOM staff, they had

06:53to

06:53fundraise and keep a base going with their finances.

06:56One of the reasons I was really excited to have you on, you are still Pentecostal, but

07:02you, I read your email correctly, you're not into some of the more extreme forms of

07:06Pentecostalism.

07:08I have friends who are, I'm not Pentecostal, I'm no longer of that belief set, but I have

07:13friends who are, and we get along fine.

07:16You know, you can have a conversation with somebody and you can talk about things that

07:19both people can come together on.

07:22And so I have really, really good conversations.

07:24But when you talk to somebody who's in one of those extremist forms, it's almost like

07:29you've got to pick fights because they're going to fight you over something if you disagree

07:33with the way they believe.

07:34So very excited to have somebody on who has a different opinion than me, but also somebody

07:40I can talk to freely and openly.

07:43And one of the things that I'm curious about, I really wanted to know how somebody who is

07:50in the Pentecostal movement, not in one of the extreme forms, how they would have viewed

07:55youth with a mission, both doctrinally, operationally, from a mission standpoint.

08:01What does this look like to a Pentecostal?

08:03Well, I think a lot of the Pentecostal side of things was miracles are supposed to happen

08:12and you're supposed to be able to hear from God and get direction.

08:15So all that stuff we had been taught before we went to IOM.

08:18So in many ways, it wasn't that far different from what I believed.

08:23And I'd like to say, because I actually was involved with the charismatic movement as a

08:28teenager, you know, we believed in speaking in tongues, believed in prophecies and healings,

08:34although you didn't see that many, in hindsight, as I've mentioned in my email, I have come

08:42to question a lot of the teachings we've had.

08:47But it wasn't that far removed.

08:50Why we're teaching and what their practices when I was there were not that dissimilar to

08:56what I was used to.

08:57And like I say, I'm not the extreme Pentecostal side of things.

09:02Yeah, so there's not a lot of difference in my view from what I found when I was there

09:07and what I've heard when I've listened to some other podcasts on people's experience

09:10with YOM.

09:12Some of the, it doesn't seem to be that much different if you go to a DTS of what I

09:16experienced

09:18nearly 40 years ago.

09:20So yeah, they're very similar, I think.

09:23Yeah.

09:23So, and we should probably define that.

09:26I was just thinking as you were talking, what if somebody's in this?

09:28How would they even know?

09:29Is it extreme?

09:30How would you define an extreme Pentecostal group?

09:35Well, I would say that people that are shaking and falling on the floor.

09:41I know there was about 1995, there was a Toronto blessing came sweeping through it.

09:49When I was in WIWAM, we didn't have that.

09:51Although we would have people who would fall over on the ground when they were being prayed

09:54for when I was in the WIWAM school.

09:55I just saw that in church services or before I went to WIWAM in the 80s, even in the 70s.

10:05So, but in the extreme, I'm very, very skeptical of the people barking like dogs and plucking

10:14like chucks and jumping around on one foot.

10:15That's absolutely ridiculous.

10:17And I think it's, personally, my view, it's an insult to the Holy Spirit.

10:20Absolute, total insult to God, that sort of stuff.

10:23And you hear stories of, like, people are shaking.

10:28You get that, I hear you get that in Hindu faith as well, religion.

10:34And that's what you've got to ask.

10:35And that's what I've had to ask over the years is, what really is, if you have a manifestation

10:41of something that seems to be a miracle, what spirit is it?

10:45Do you mind if I give a story of a healing I went to once?

10:48No, absolutely.

10:49In fact, I was hoping that you would, because you and I are of the same opinion in this.

10:54You can see many of those things happening in other religions.

10:57So, sure, go ahead.

10:58Yeah.

10:59Well, I went, probably about 2001, I had quite a bad back issue.

11:05I must have pulled it when I was lifting a monitor, because I'm an IT, and in those days

11:09the monitors were big, chunky, hefty things.

11:12And I had a bad back for a few months, and I was walking around, I used to joke, I

11:18was

11:18walking around like, because it was at the time that the reboot of Planet of the Apes

11:22came out, and I was walking around like an extra from Planet of the Apes in pain, but

11:27sort of trying to get myself going.

11:28So, I went to a healing meeting with these people that had come from Florida.

11:32They were a lovely couple, older couple, and they were into the healing ministry stuff.

11:37And before I went, I did pray.

11:39I was quite praying that I'd be healed.

11:42Went along, and he got me up, because I said, anyone up to get healed?

11:46I can't remember the exact question I asked, but I went up from my back to get healed.

11:51So, he says, oh, look, I want you to put your, stretch your arms out.

11:54I won't demonstrate too much, and with the camera it might look a bit strange.

11:58I'll stick my arms out and, you know, in front of me with my fingers, you know, pointed,

12:02it lined up.

12:03And, of course, naturally, you had one arm shorter than the other, not shorter than the

12:08other, but pulled back.

12:10And he commanded, in the name of Jesus, every bone, ligament, muscle, tendon, to align itself

12:15in the name of Jesus.

12:16And I was a little bit sceptical of that sort of stuff anyway, because I knew there had

12:20been fake half-shaped healers, would trick things like slip the shoe, if it was your

12:25leg they were trying to extend.

12:27But I would testify in a court of law, with a clear conscience, that my shoulder rotated

12:33on its own accord, and I saw my left arm move out, come back, move back past the tips of

12:41my finger, and it was like a rotating, like a rotating action on my left arm.

12:47And no one was touching me, and it was just quite a weird sensation, physically.

12:54So in my view, I mean, someone might say it was an auto-suggestion, it was a psycho, I

13:00thought it happened, but yeah, I doubt that very much.

13:07So I believe some things spiritual happened.

13:09But I used to be, I used to talk to people and say, oh, what has happened to me?

13:13And I found it quite funny how when you go to groups that believed in miracles, and they'd

13:17be sitting around talking about, oh, I've got a car park, I've prayed, and the Lord gave

13:20me a car park today, and I'd tell that story, and all of a sudden I'd be quite quiet, and

13:24no one would say anything, and then I'd move on.

13:26So it seems a bit weird when you tell about what would be quite a physical miracle, people

13:33would sort of not believe you.

13:35But putting that aside, I question, was that spirit of God?

13:43I staggered out of the meeting still with a sore back, and in all fairness, that was six

13:48weeks into the back injury, and after about a week and a half, I started walking upright

13:52and got better.

13:52So people would say maybe there was a healing took place, but it delayed.

13:58But I now don't assume, I don't automatically assume that that was actually the spirit of

14:03God.

14:03I just don't know.

14:05Exactly.

14:05I've mentioned this maybe one time, but I had a job one time where I was working with

14:12a bunch of people from India, and some of them were quite religious.

14:16I encountered one Hindu who had accepted Jesus as one of his gods, and I'm scratching my

14:23head thinking, wait a minute, how is that possible?

14:25How do you accept Jesus as one of your plural gods?

14:29But this man was very religious.

14:31He knew his Bible inside and out.

14:33In fact, I became a little bit embarrassed at how little I knew compared to him.

14:38He studied the word like a Christian should, but he would get into talking about some of

14:43the experiences he had, not just with the Jesus God, but some of the other gods.

14:48And what he's describing is not that unusual if you look at the charismatic movement.

14:53And it made me pause to think, can we, there's this ambition in some of the movements to say,

15:00because we have these experiences, that means that God is with us.

15:04That's vindication God is with us.

15:05But my question is, well, vindication of which God?

15:08Because there are multiple religions that do this, right?

15:12And so whenever you, when I'm talking to Pentecostal, I always want to bring that up

15:16to see what they think.

15:18And it's odd that you and I seem to be a lot more aligned than even some of the friends

15:22that I have that are Pentecostal, in that area, at least.

15:25So it makes me value your inside look into Youth with a Mission, because it's grounded

15:34in the reality that you can't trust the emotions and you can't trust the experiences.

15:41You really have to go back to the doctrine.

15:44And that's what I think.

15:45I look at the miracles that you hear about in many Pentecostal circles.

15:49And like my arm, it's a thing that happened with my arm.

15:53I call them, kind of call them trinket miracles.

15:56I mean, what is the point of a lot of them?

15:57I mean, can we have a raising of the dead, please?

16:00Can we have a, like in the early church, the Acts of the Apostles, the whole cities

16:05were turned upside down because they hit town.

16:08And it was all done very publicly.

16:10And even, you know, when Lazarus was raised from the dead, when Jesus, it was, the grave

16:15was smelling.

16:16It was an undeniable miracle.

16:20And it was a big one.

16:21I mean, I'm not trying to say we're looking for a big show, but I'm kind of thinking,

16:26you know, oh, Paul went to a meeting and his arm rotated around him, his left arm rotated

16:30around him, his shoulder.

16:31Wow, you know, is that really anything to write home about?

16:35And as you say, it could be done in other religions, too.

16:39Absolutely.

16:40So when you were working with Youth With A Mission, you're on the basis.

16:44Did you witness anything that people were claiming were this type of experience?

16:50Did they, in other words, were they leaning more towards the Pentecostal experiences than,

16:57say, the church that you were attending at the time?

16:59I would say much the same.

17:02I mean, the Baptist church I was going to was charismatic.

17:07And that sort of dovetails into Pentecostalism, I think, too, a similar thing.

17:12So to me, it wasn't that foreign what was going on in the school.

17:16But it wasn't too extreme, either.

17:18I mean, we didn't have anyone running around like a, barking like a dog and jumping up and

17:23down on one leg, either.

17:25And many people were just trying, I suppose they were trying to, you know, find, it was

17:31more, I suppose, focused on inner healing.

17:33And that was one of the things I think back now may be too intense.

17:38It gets very intense with that.

17:40And it gets very self-focused.

17:42And sometimes you've just got to get out and forget about yourself.

17:46I know it might be a bit glim to say that, but I wonder now whether it gets a bit,

17:51just

17:51a bit too of a hothouse with the inner healing.

17:54I don't know what it's like so much now.

17:56I think it may be much the same.

17:59But yeah, it wasn't, it was, how would I put it, it wasn't too extreme.

18:07But there was certainly people coming in from ministry, come up and get prayed for and delivered

18:12and people getting emotional.

18:16And I sometimes, and my other criticism now would be, I think you need to be, they're

18:23not trained psychiatrists or psychologists.

18:26And it's a dangerous ground to start trying to delve into people's inner trauma and stuff

18:31like that without proper training.

18:33And I think that's where back in the day when I went, there was a lot of attitude and way

18:38even in the mainstream churches of God's beyond the medical side of things.

18:44You know, man is, you know, inherently flawed.

18:47So all the doctors and the psychiatrists are all really got it wrong.

18:51And you really just need to get healing from God.

18:53And I'm not saying I can't, other people have, probably have had healing, you know, have

18:59been prayed for and a major release from trauma.

19:04I never experienced that.

19:06It's just for me, it's just been that, you know, your life goes through, you're one foot

19:09in front of the other and you get on with it and you choose to believe.

19:14And I've found in some ways relief from, say, anxiety or whatever by just singing songs

19:22to the Lord.

19:22So in talking with Jenny and some of the other people from Youth With a Mission, there were

19:27several things that they say made life very difficult.

19:30In some cases, there were people who they didn't have proper food.

19:34Some had a martyrdom complex where they felt like the suffering that they were having on

19:40the base was something that God had directed them towards.

19:45Jenny, actually, Jenny mentioned that a lot because it led her down a path of wanting to

19:50be to work with people in the psychology of recovery.

19:55So what did you experience or witness, if anything, with that regards?

20:01Were there people that were well taken care of or did you see people that might have needed

20:05a little bit more than they had?

20:07I didn't see any lack from what I could tell on my base.

20:11The food was just pretty average.

20:15And I felt we were well provided for.

20:17It wasn't like we were missing out in any of that area.

20:22Like I say, I think, I think my experience was fairly normal or ordinary.

20:27I didn't have any really bad experiences myself.

20:33You know, and like us, even I suppose on the outreach, I could have thought maybe their

20:40leadership wasn't as strong as they could have been.

20:45But on the whole, I mean, from my point of view, I'd say, look, they're only human as

20:50well.

20:50And a lot of them were probably only, like people have said, they might have only been

20:55Christian in a couple of years.

20:58And there is natural leadership ability, which I think people have.

21:04And I think that's what you, you know, you're naturally a leader.

21:08You can learn a bit of leadership, but I think it's a bit of a hit and miss at times

21:14with

21:14the leadership quality.

21:17But ours weren't too bad.

21:20So overall, I think it was fairly, fairly good in terms of being provided for.

21:25There was no lack.

21:27I think, yeah, I think in some ways, some people did say maybe the food was a bit stodgy

21:35and, you know, you put on weight, stuff like that, you know, but again, you expect, you

21:39know, you just go, well, that's, I'm only here for a short time.

21:42I'm not making a career out of this.

21:44I didn't plan to stay with YWAM for years on end unless I got a call to do so, but

21:50it

21:50didn't happen.

21:51How the food relates to the experience for the youth, it's kind of a big deal.

21:56If you go and they're going to give you a lot of chocolate chip cookies, the younger

21:59crowd's going to say, hey, this is great.

22:01Some of the older crowd's going to say, hey, this is making me fat.

22:04But, and so you can't, I guess what I'm trying to say is you can't please everybody.

22:08You know what I mean?

22:09We certainly weren't being fed bad food, I would say.

22:13It was okay.

22:14Like I say, it may not have been the fanciest, but I think one lady did say that she tended

22:20to put on a bit of weight when she was at YWAM because it was a bit stodgy at times.

22:25But even when I stayed with my friend over in YWAM and Calcutta, the food wasn't too bad

22:33in my view.

22:34Yeah, that's kind of the way that I interpret it.

22:37You're not going to send a bunch of people to a base and then just not feed them.

22:40They'd never come back.

22:41And word would quickly spread through the world, hey, this is a bad idea.

22:44Yeah.

22:45So, the other thing people have talked about, and I'm going to try to handle this delicately

22:50because this is a, for me, it's a little bit of a serious issue.

22:55There are some people that contact me, and I'm trying very hard not to give details to

23:00out those people.

23:01But what they describe basically, how can I say, a good way to explain it is it's almost

23:09as though it's like boot camp in the Army.

23:11You go, and the training is, it's more rigorous than should be.

23:16And I have friends who are in the Army.

23:19I have friends who had some issues with the way that the sergeants would try to break you.

23:25But there's a reason why the sergeant would break the people in the Army.

23:29You break them down, you build them back up better, and that's the Army mentality.

23:33I've had people who have contacted me with Youth With A Mission saying similar things.

23:39I'm not going to say the exact same thing, but similar things.

23:41And I'm trying to put into perspective how much of that is just their experience, how

23:47much of it is a shared experience.

23:49What would you say in that aspect?

23:52Well, yeah, there was, I do remember having one of the leaders saying that the YWAM school

23:57was designed to break you, because their idea was that people would come from standard

24:02churches.

24:04And the general attitude in the YWAM was that most churches weren't discipling people, which

24:10was the phrase they used.

24:13And that gets into discipling movement, shepherding movement stuff, I suppose.

24:17But their view was that a lot of Christians would just go to church, we're warming up here,

24:23attitudes weren't changing, ideas weren't changing, and there was not much difference

24:27from them when they went out into the world.

24:30Sometimes I think that can be true, and not always.

24:33And I do think if you're born as a spirit of God, you're going to change anyway.

24:38But the YWAM ideology was to put you through like a boot camp, as you say.

24:46And in various spaces, I understand, of schools, it can be harder or softer.

24:51I thought ours was in the middle.

24:54And it's just being given jobs to do, and wanting to do them, and doing work around the

25:00base, and helping out, being asked to do stuff.

25:06I understand that there was an attitude in YWAM that they could be difficult, deliberately

25:10difficult, to make it hard for you.

25:13And I was prepared for that when I went, because I heard stories of that happening.

25:18But, and again, it's various from base to base.

25:23Like I said, my friend who went there for, over to India, she said she only had one set

25:28of leaders that she found difficult.

25:29Everything else was fine for her.

25:31She didn't have much trouble with anything.

25:33Yet other people on the base I was with, in my school, one lady who was in the army

25:38before, a few years before the school, she said it was, YWAM was worse than the army.

25:43She found that they treated you better in the army than in YWAM.

25:45Um, that was how, how she took it.

25:48Uh, and yeah, I think it can be, sometimes if you're trying, if you're trying to do the

25:55boot camp thing, maybe it backfires on you, on sometimes, with people.

26:01Um, and I don't know, I know what you mean, uh, with the army side of things.

26:05I heard stories of a, friends of mine who were older, back in the UK, in the, in the, in

26:10the

26:10forties and fifties, the boys had, the guys had to go off to, um, army training for three

26:15months.

26:16And she said, they went in boys and came out men.

26:19Um, so the, the ladies in the day missed it when they stopped it.

26:23Um, and yeah, I, I don't know.

26:26Is there a, is there a place for deliberately putting yourself into a position where you're,

26:29you're tested to build character?

26:31Um, and that's what the idea and why I'm the DTS was to do was to try and build character.

26:37Uh, but unfortunately some people came away feeling, they'd been, um, feeling a bit damaged

26:41by it.

26:42You know, and I'm, I'm 50 years old.

26:44And so my mentality matches what I grew up with.

26:49And we were of a culture that was different than the culture today.

26:52You were expected to be hard.

26:55You were expected to be broken down and built back up.

26:58And so it was, it would not be that out of the ordinary.

27:02We grew up, I grew up watching GI Joe cartoons where they're doing exactly that.

27:07But in today's world, it has changed so significantly.

27:11I sometimes wonder if it isn't really just a big adjustment that needs to happen from within

27:16the organization to match the times, because you're not going to find too many parents that

27:21want to send their kid to a sergeant in the army.

27:24They, they just simply wouldn't do it.

27:26And so it could be simply that the signs of the times have, the, the era had changed

27:32enough and they haven't changed rapidly enough to match it.

27:36I think, I think with, uh, with YWAM too, it depended on how strong willed you were.

27:40If you were the person who had gone out into the world and rebelled against everything,

27:45you would have found it harder in the YWAM school.

27:48Um, if you were more of the person who had been straight and followed through and done,

27:54you know, what was the rebellious type, you probably wouldn't have found it as hard.

27:58Um, but again, I think that varied from base to base and, and humans, people are human.

28:03They, they, they, they, even if you're a Christian, of course you, you can be, um, a hard person

28:09to deal with.

28:09And if you have a leader who gets it a bit of a power trap, have you ever wondered how

28:14the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned

28:20through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

28:26You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

28:31william-branham.org.

28:33On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

28:38Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

28:44audio, and digital versions of each book.

28:47You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

28:53movements.

28:53If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute

28:59button at the top.

29:00And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

29:06to or watching.

29:07On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

29:12So you mentioned the word power trip, and I want to go a little bit deeper with that.

29:16In talking with Jenny and thinking through the Seven Mountains Mandate, from the top, from the

29:23global organization structure, there seems to be this ambition of power, because you can't – you

29:29almost can't have the Seven Mountains Mandate without some sort of an elitist mentality.

29:35You're going to take over all of these mountains of conquering government, etc.

29:40And so it makes me wonder – I came across a newspaper article where Ern Baxter of the

29:45shepherding movement is visiting these bases.

29:48So he's bringing with him all of his theology that's based on a hierarchy of authoritarian

29:55control, which the shepherd movement was later exposed for.

29:59But if that's coming onto the bases, and you find that the top has this agenda of Seven

30:04Mountains Mandate, it makes me wonder how much of this cascades down, and how much of

30:09it do you actually see when you're on a base?

30:11Did you experience anything that felt like authoritarian control?

30:14Not really.

30:15In that area, I didn't feel that, no.

30:18And I think when I was there, I was trying to work – I'm trying to remember.

30:21I remember while I was on the – I was still on the base, and I go to a few

30:26meetings when

30:27I was doing the support work, and there was – they'd gone off to a conference, and one

30:33of the guys came back, and he was – or he was about to go to a conference, a YWAM

30:38conference

30:39in Wellington, I think it was.

30:41And he was talking about the Seven Mountains Mandate ideology.

30:45And I thought it would have been rejected by YWAM New Zealand.

30:49And I could have got that wrong, so I was surprised to hear that they have that now

30:53in their mandates.

30:54So from when I was there, it wasn't – that wasn't big at all, as far as I can remember.

31:01So, no, I didn't feel that.

31:03I mean, I just – as I said, I think my base was not that authoritarian.

31:10They put pressure on you to change and develop, but it wasn't – in my view, it wasn't over

31:16the top.

31:17So let's talk a little bit about the DNA of the theology, because that's one thing

31:23that's really eluded me.

31:25When I look at the history of Youth with a Mission, I see all of these different streams

31:29of influence, and I don't see anything really direct to, like, Branhamism or Lateran.

31:36But yet, whenever I look at Youth with a Mission, I see trace elements of those theologies that

31:42came from those.

31:43So I'm trying to picture how in the world did this develop, and what type of theology

31:47did it develop into?

31:49What would you say, based on your experience on the base, would be the structural DNA of

31:56their theology?

31:56There would be that you – there would be solid Bible teaching in many ways.

32:02Of course, they viewed the Bible as the Word of God, cover to cover.

32:06But there was moved into – we're woven into that, was the, I would say, charismatic Pentecostal

32:12style of hearing from God, being able to be prayed for and have healing.

32:19That's the basis of it, and there was that whole ethic of go, you know, as a young person,

32:26go out and preach the Gospel, and not necessarily have a hugely deep theological background.

32:34It was probably more enthusiasm, I would say, in many ways, with a shallow Bible teaching

32:43layer.

32:44You didn't really get into really studying deep into the Word of God.

32:48It was more of a surface level.

32:50So it was – yeah, there was – but it was very much – God can speak to you every

32:55day, God can tell you what to do every day.

32:59Because I think Lauren Cunningham, in his book, he felt he had visions of waves of youth going

33:05across the nation, so very much into visions at the top, I suppose.

33:12And he certainly created a large organisation that's very huge.

33:19So that would be my summary of the theology.

33:23I would say it would be a very Pentecostal style of things.

33:26I think he came out of the Assemblies of God.

33:30I think his church was the Assemblies of God, which was Pentecostal.

33:32That makes sense, because the Assemblies rejected latter reign, 1949.

33:38So you wouldn't find any direct streams, but at the same time – in fact, I just recorded

33:43that podcast today.

33:44It'll come out before this one, but the Assemblies rejected it in 1949, but it didn't really get

33:51fully rejected all across the board.

33:54In fact, it caused a wedge to form and eventually split the Assemblies in half.

34:00So you had one half of the Assemblies, the independent Assemblies, that just openly accepted

34:05latter reign.

34:06The other one denounced it, but within the ones that denounced it, it still kind of, you

34:11know, it had already made its mark.

34:13I'll just say it like that.

34:14So that would make sense if he was Assemblies.

34:18One of the other things that has come up as conversation with multiple members is the

34:25idea of the mission itself.

34:27We're trying to determine what was the mission.

34:30It seems as though the mission is just simply to have a mission, because they bring these

34:34people overseas.

34:36They say, we're going to do all this work for God.

34:38And some of them, you know, they don't really – some of them don't even interact with

34:43people around the base, you know, in the place where they're going.

34:47So you have to wonder, what is the mission?

34:49Did you come in contact with anybody who had any sort of knowledge as to what the mission

34:55actually was?

34:56Well, when I went, it was – the motto was to know God and make him known.

35:02So their idea was that they would train up young people to go out and share their faith,

35:08and I'm sure some were.

35:10And like I say, my friends was working in India in a – more of a medical – a base

35:18medical help with slums.

35:20So that was part of what they were trying to do, reach out and a bit of practical help

35:24with people.

35:25The idea was that there would be evangelism.

35:28It's like when you went on your outreach, you were supposed to share your faith with

35:30people you met, and you'd be trying to work out ways of talking to people and get the

35:34conversation around to the Lord, which is a bit contrived now.

35:40It wasn't on Waiwan, but while I was trying to do that with somebody in Canada once, the

35:43guy just said to me, oh, we had a guy at work try and start a conversation about religion.

35:51And he said, I used to be a Catholic, then I became a Christian.

35:54He thought it was a bit of a joke.

35:56So it's like, you know, how do you share your faith out there without being false, without

36:02coming across as contrived?

36:06So I'm sure people do.

36:08Like my view, when we were on the – I went trekking, actually, or tramping on the outreach,

36:16and we got to meet a few people and talk.

36:18But it wasn't huge.

36:21I think you've got to – it was good to have chats with people.

36:25I don't know what effect we had, if any, overall.

36:28And that's the thing.

36:29Some people would come back from Waiwan and say, we had these amazing experiences, and

36:33people would meet the Lord, and other people would go, and nothing much happened in that

36:38area.

36:39And some people would go to the Waiwan base to do practical work.

36:43Like I had a friend go to Australia, and he worked on the maintenance side of things,

36:47and building maintenance on the base.

36:48So you've got all that infrastructure, physical infrastructure that needs supporting.

36:53I suppose it's like an army.

36:54You have the people on the front line doing the shooting.

36:57And you've got people behind the scenes doing the logistics and the backup and fixing things

37:03and making things work.

37:05That's how I would see it with Waiwan as well, and probably any organization like that.

37:11And I think there's different skill levels.

37:13Like people – some people are naturally gifted at sharing their faith directly one-on-one.

37:19Some people are naturally gifted at preaching from the pulpit.

37:21And some people are naturally gifted behind the scenes.

37:26And they might go to an organization or any mission organization and be more behind the

37:32scenes supporting the operation rather than being front line.

37:37And that's where it can look like people just go to these organizations and don't really

37:41do any mission work, but just go and have a mission.

37:46But I think the start of Waiwan was to share the gospel – well, their goal was to share

37:52the gospel around the world.

37:53Yeah, that makes sense.

37:54I think it had an initial objective, which is not the same objective that they have now.

38:00In fact, if you look at the name, Youth with a Mission – in fact, I'll ask you this

38:04question.

38:04So the name – the branding is Youth with a Mission.

38:07And when I hear the word youth, there's a certain picture that comes into my head of

38:12the people who are on the base.

38:13But each time I interview a person, it's teenagers with a mission, it's late teenagers

38:18with a mission, it's 20 years old with a mission.

38:21And most people don't call these youth.

38:23What did you see when you're on the base?

38:24Was it youth or was it teenagers or young adults?

38:28Well, when I was in my school, our school was – for some reason, it was actually a bit

38:31older, like when I say older, 24 to 27, 28.

38:34And that was considered an older DTS.

38:38And it was what they call the crossroads DTS, which you could do if you were in your 40s

38:41and you had kids or had – your kids had left home when you were in your 50s.

38:46But yeah, it was very focused on youth.

38:49But it was – our school was actually generally older.

38:52I think there was a couple of people in there still about 17, 18.

38:55But generally, we were older.

38:57Like when I went to the base in Calcutta in 96, there was a lot of young people there.

39:04And that's what it was.

39:05I remember even rolling it back a bit.

39:09Back in about 1983, which I'm my age now, I was in Christchurch in the city square.

39:14And there was some Waiwan people doing a skit.

39:18And I ended up chatting to one of the people that was running it.

39:21And she was saying, oh, you know, youth, you know, instead of running off to university

39:26and getting a degree and following a career, maybe use the best years, the young years to serve the Lord.

39:33So that's what their objective was, was to get the youth and people who were young, teenagers.

39:39And in some ways, they were trying to encourage people not to chase the money, not chase career and family

39:49and put that aside for a bit and follow the Lord.

39:54Maybe that's the way some people want to go.

39:56But I think it was – like I say, it was very focused on getting youth to do that.

40:01Yeah, that makes sense.

40:01And I'm – like I said, I'm really excited to have somebody who's Pentecostal who's not in the extremist

40:08because there's another aspect, and I can hear it in your voice.

40:12I also hear it in the friends that I have that are Pentecostal.

40:15They're not really that afraid to think.

40:18And whenever there are people who are outside the Pentecostal movement

40:21and they see the people falling on the floor, barking like dogs, all of this,

40:25the first thought that they have is, well, these people can't critically think.

40:28How can you critically think if you're barking like a dog?

40:30And the whole movement can't be branded like this, right?

40:34So what was it like with regards to critical thinking on the base?

40:39Would you say that they were as open as you are, or were they more closed thinking?

40:43I think there was a reasonable amount of critical thinking.

40:46And like I say, the barking like dogs and the jumping on one leg

40:49and plucking like a chook stuff didn't happen at our school,

40:52and it wasn't happening then.

40:54I think it came maybe eight or nine years later, maybe seven or eight years later,

40:58with that movement from Toronto.

41:00And so I understand.

41:03So there was a certain level of critical thinking,

41:06but there was also very much a push of hearing the Lord and obeying.

41:13So again, that's where you can probably get into trouble with,

41:16are you really hearing from the Lord, or is it just in your mind?

41:21And this is where I've found, even outside of Hawaii, where in my experiences sometimes,

41:27it's not that I'll sit down in the morning and go, Lord, speak to me today and tell me what

41:31to do.

41:32But every now and then I get a prompt internally, or feel like I'm leading, don't do this or do

41:37that.

41:38And I've got to be honest, often it turns out to be true.

41:43But I'm not going to tell other people to do that.

41:47It's something I've found myself.

41:50It's just experiences I've had where I've felt that it's a lot of prompting, as you might say, to be

41:57correct.

41:59And is it the Lord speaking to me?

42:01Maybe it is.

42:03But again, I think you've got to balance that out with HSA critical thinking.

42:08And I think if you go to YWAM, I think you do need to do it with a rational mind

42:14and be prepared.

42:15If you're prepared to live by faith and live by financially,

42:21and maybe at the end of your working life or your 60s or 70s,

42:25you may not have a house to live in.

42:28It's something you might have to choose to do.

42:32But having said that, I think if you do go off to an organization like YWAM,

42:36I think it's good to think it through and be financially savvy.

42:41I know somebody who's a missionary in another organization,

42:44but she's got a house back home in New Zealand, and she rents it out.

42:48And so when the day comes when she can no longer be a missionary,

42:51she's got somewhere to come back to.

42:53So I do, and I think when I was looking to go to YWAM,

42:56I remember talking to a rather older ex-pastor who was very astute,

43:02and he said, just be careful.

43:06He said, I've known so many people who are missionaries.

43:08They've gone off.

43:09They didn't buy a house.

43:10They didn't get themselves set up financially because often that can be.

43:14Trust the Lord.

43:15That's one of the things that YWAM would push.

43:16Trust the Lord.

43:18Don't worry about finances.

43:19Don't worry about your career.

43:20Trust the Lord.

43:21He'll provide.

43:22And this guy said he'd seen other missionaries come back from other organizations too with nothing.

43:29And it's hard.

43:31And later in life.

43:32So that is something you have to be wary of with these groups.

43:38You do have to look after yourself long term.

43:42And it doesn't always pan out as some of the people who are at the top would say.

43:50And what I might add with that too is that you've got to be aware that there's people who are

43:54very charismatic

43:55and have the ability to speak and talk.

43:58And they will probably get a lot more financial support than somebody who may be a bit quieter and not

44:05as charismatic.

44:05So some stories I did hear, we would have a person from a rich church in the middle of the

44:11United States who was a charismatic, good-looking guy.

44:13And he'd be basically rolling in money.

44:16And yet the person from Central America was trying to find money for a postage stamp.

44:21You know.

44:23That happens.

44:24Yeah.

44:25And I'm ugly as a box of rocks.

44:26I would be the one who didn't make any money.

44:30Honestly, that's one of the things that's really worried me about this movement in general.

44:34Because when I hear the word youth, it paints a different picture.

44:37I'm thinking, you know, if they're a five, six-year-old, sure, it's okay.

44:40But you're taking children in their late teens, early 20s, which aren't youth.

44:47They're young adults.

44:48You take a young adult during the age when they really should start to be building a foundation for themselves.

44:53Financially, mentally, worldview.

44:57And instead, what you're doing is you're giving them a worldview, the one that you want.

45:02And, you know, by all accounts, even the little bit we've talked today, the worldview they're giving you is dated

45:10back years ago.

45:11It's not the same worldview.

45:12Right down to the we're going to break you down mentality.

45:15That's something that you heard in the 50s, 60s.

45:18That's not something you hear today.

45:19So you have somebody who's brought into this environment, and they're not building the foundation for themselves.

45:26The reason it pains me is because I spent 37 years of my life in a doomsday religion where we

45:34didn't look to the future.

45:35Why would we?

45:36The world's going to end tomorrow, you know.

45:38So I never had – for 37 years, I never put a penny into a retirement account.

45:44And at age 37, when I escaped, I'm blindsided because, oh, my gosh, I am the early side of the

45:51statistics when they talk about people who will never get a retirement.

45:54I'm on the side that I'm so far behind the game that the ones that they're talking about are ahead

45:59of me.

46:00And I look at youth with a mission, well, you're doing the same thing to these individuals.

46:05Maybe they do get out of the base before age 37, but it's the same problem, just maybe to a

46:12less extreme extent.

46:14So the retirement worries me, but also there are life skills that you learn just simply by being with people

46:22who aren't on a mission.

46:24And whenever you escape this and you go suddenly to the workplace and you don't have any life skills, there

46:31are people who feel so far out of their element that they lose their jobs because they simply can't take

46:36it.

46:36They don't know how to deal with people of opposing viewpoints.

46:41So part of that worries me.

46:43What are your thoughts about that?

46:44Yeah, I feel that if you're going to go to a YWAM or any other missionalisation, you've got to take

46:51into account that you need to be prepared to suffer financially.

46:56And unfortunately, that can be pushed as a suffering for Jesus.

47:06Going back to the time I went to YWAM, there was, even in the churches in general where I was,

47:13there was this view that you shouldn't chase finances, you shouldn't chase wealth and mammon.

47:18You should just seek the Lord.

47:20And we all had day jobs, but you sort of had this, it was almost like it was sin to

47:26want to accumulate wealth.

47:29But now, in hindsight, I think that wasn't the wisest thing to do.

47:34It's not good to be greedy and make wealth your primary goal, but you've also got to be savvy about

47:43it.

47:43But it would be pushed, I think, in YWAM that God would provide and you'd have all the stories that

47:49people forsook the corporate life and gave all the money away and went off to follow the Lord.

47:56And I remember on our YWAM school, there was one of the leaders there talked about C.T. Studd and

48:02it was about how he had inherited the equivalent of three million pounds in the 1800s and gave it all

48:08away and went off and be a missionary.

48:11And, you know, if you read the story, they had a great legacy in the end, I think in Africa

48:17and China.

48:18But they suffered, you know, financially, didn't have much to eat.

48:21This was C.T. Studd and his wife.

48:23But that was sort of held up as something to aspire to almost.

48:30And you have to be careful of that.

48:31I do remember early 90s, I think it was, a family went off to YWAM.

48:36They sold their house, family of five, two mum and dad taking the kids.

48:40And I don't know what happened, but they were back within a year and having to find accommodation.

48:45So I think something went bang and, of course, all this money's been spent and now they're back to square

48:51one.

48:51So I think at the time, as I said before, there was an attitude in the churches that I was

49:02involved with of almost despising financial planning.

49:06And I do remember going to, when I was with the YWAM school, we went off to a seminar over

49:13the hill in Christchurch in a place called Littleton.

49:16And one of the head top YWAM leaders was talking about how most people are looking to plan for their

49:23retirement and they need to, you know, their focus is on how they're going to cope when they retire.

49:28And it was that what he was pushing was forget that and stop thinking like that and think of missions.

49:34Another thing that I'm hearing from people who have been on the base is, in fact, one person told me

49:40explicitly, I never left the base.

49:42I was on the base and that's, that was my life.

49:44That was my mission to be on the base.

49:46I'm curious, is that the same experience you noticed?

49:50Did they go to outside churches?

49:52Did they, did they interact with the people in the, you know, in the town or the city that they

49:58were near?

49:59Where, what was it like with regards to those who were on the base and the other Christians?

50:04Yeah, but our base was, in some ways, was a bit isolated.

50:08And like, I know one lady who was there, she used to be on a base in Wellington, which was

50:12right on the street front.

50:13And they would actually go out into the street and talk to the people in the red light district.

50:17She found, she actually found the base where we were, was in a suburban area.

50:21She found it quite relatively boring, to be honest, because we were away from the main centre of town.

50:29But we did, we did do, I do remember on the YWAM school going to a boys' institute where there's

50:37some youth who have been in trouble with the law.

50:40And they were trying to teach them how to function properly.

50:46They'd been in trouble, like probably burglaries and stuff like that.

50:49So it wasn't jail, it wasn't Borstal, but it was like a youth facility for young boys who were going

50:56off the rails.

50:57And one Saturday night we went off there and we played basketball with them and interacted with them.

51:03I mean, it was a very fulfilling time, I felt, but that was only one incident I can think of

51:08where we actually got out of the base in terms of, in the community.

51:12There was the outreach where we were talking to people out in the bush, on the tracks.

51:18And as I say, it wasn't a base that discouraged you going to other churches.

51:22I had heard some podcasts I've listened to since I started thinking about how YWAM's doing these days.

51:30They were discouraged from going to churches from the base.

51:35What I did notice was there were some people on the base who just had this air of almost superiority.

51:42They viewed churches as full of people who hadn't counted the cost, the true cost to follow the Lord.

51:49Because we have gone off, we have forsaken our careers, we've forsaken our homes,

51:53and we've thrown off the security of a day job and relying on donation support to live.

52:01So we were the ones really counting the cost for the Lord.

52:04So there was that attitude I found on some of the people there.

52:07I also have parents contacting me through either the comment feeds, or I even had a few by email,

52:13worried about people that they know of who are on the bases.

52:17And I don't really know how yet to answer them, so I answer just very in a non-answer.

52:24I hate to do that, but I don't want to give people wrong information.

52:28What advice would you give to somebody who is concerned about hearing some of the information about Youth with a

52:33Mission?

52:34What advice would you give them if they were about to send their children to the base?

52:39I would say just investigate the base, investigate what they're teaching, make sure that you're choosing to go in your

52:47own accord,

52:49and make sure that you're, I would say also if you're wanting to go long term,

52:55make sure that they've got good financial support to support them and that they can not be too destitute at

53:03the end of it.

53:05But I would say, go in with your eyes open and ideally have the ability to leave if you feel

53:13it's getting abusive.

53:15And I know some people whose daughter's gone to YWAM overseas and said that she seems to be doing very

53:22well and is no problem.

53:24So, as I say, it's base to base.

53:26But I would say just go in with your eyes open and make sure it's a solid decision you're making,

53:36not just a thing of, oh, I don't know what I'm doing now, oh, I've done university, oh, I'm a

53:42bit bored with my job, I'll go to YWAM.

53:44I don't think you should do that.

53:46Make sure it is a definite decision you're going and go with your eyes open.

53:52Well, that's very good advice.

53:53Thank you so much for doing this.

53:55You're welcome.

53:55I hope it's been of some benefit.

53:57Absolutely.

53:59Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

54:02You can find us at william-branum.org.

54:05For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponize Religion from Christian Identity to

54:11the NAR.

54:11Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

54:49Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

55:19Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

YWAM & Boot Camp Christianity? A Former Insider Speaks Out | Podcast Episode 596

Category

Transcript

Comments

Recommended