- 49 minutes ago
John and Pia Hugo discuss Pia's experiences in Harvest Rock Church, her reflections on New Apostolic Reformation culture, and the long-term effects of spiritual abuse, authoritarian leadership, and enforced submission. The conversation explores how control can shape a person's thinking, how fear and loyalty keep people inside harmful systems, and why listening to conscience matters when something feels wrong.
They also examine spiritual covering, apostolic authority, charismatic culture, YWAM, deconstruction, and recovery after religious harm. Pia connects her personal journey to her present work serving abused women and children in the Philippines, while John adds historical context about Pentecostal and charismatic movements, religious control, and the patterns that repeat across generations.
00:00 Introduction
04:00 How Pia Entered Harvest Rock And Its Inner Circle
08:12 Mental Models, Conditioning, And Life Inside The System
14:24 Abuse, Submission, And The Breaking Point
19:35 John On Branhamism, Latter Rain, And Repeating Patterns
25:02 Plato's Cave, Truth Tellers, And Why Groups Resist Change
30:59 Apostolic Authority, Spiritual Covering, And Information Control
36:05 Life After Leaving, Relearning Freedom, And Personal Recovery
45:29 Mercy, Hypocrisy, Missions, And The Pressure Of American Church Culture
53:01 Pia's Advice For Those Still Stuck In The Cave
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also examine spiritual covering, apostolic authority, charismatic culture, YWAM, deconstruction, and recovery after religious harm. Pia connects her personal journey to her present work serving abused women and children in the Philippines, while John adds historical context about Pentecostal and charismatic movements, religious control, and the patterns that repeat across generations.
00:00 Introduction
04:00 How Pia Entered Harvest Rock And Its Inner Circle
08:12 Mental Models, Conditioning, And Life Inside The System
14:24 Abuse, Submission, And The Breaking Point
19:35 John On Branhamism, Latter Rain, And Repeating Patterns
25:02 Plato's Cave, Truth Tellers, And Why Groups Resist Change
30:59 Apostolic Authority, Spiritual Covering, And Information Control
36:05 Life After Leaving, Relearning Freedom, And Personal Recovery
45:29 Mercy, Hypocrisy, Missions, And The Pressure Of American Church Culture
53:01 Pia's Advice For Those Still Stuck In The Cave
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Pia Hugo, former member of Harvest Rock Church.
00:47Pia, it's good to have you on and to talk through your story.
00:51I've been reading through your email, which is very brief, but then we talk some more, and it's so fascinating.
00:57I think our listeners are going to be very excited to hear you.
00:59Maybe if you could just take a moment and introduce yourself, tell everybody a little bit about yourself.
01:04Hey, John.
01:05Thank you so much for having me here.
01:08I am a subscriber and a follower, and I really appreciate what you do for the kingdom.
01:15So, yeah, I'm excited to be here.
01:17Right now, my husband and I, we are missionaries to the Philippines.
01:23I am a Filipino, born and raised for 20 years before coming here to the United States for good.
01:34And so now we go back and forth.
01:38I mainly do, I guess you could say spiritual healing and also trauma-informed counseling.
01:49So, one of the things I do is I go into, like, safe houses in the Philippines where I counsel
02:01the girls,
02:02the young women who have been sexually abused or domestically abused or human trafficked.
02:10So, those are the three categories.
02:13It's not an easy ministry, I have to say.
02:19But I think the reason why God chose me to be in these ministries is because I have been sexually
02:27abused.
02:28I have been domestically abused.
02:31And I've also been spiritually abused, which is really, I think, why you invited me for that last part.
02:39I definitely know what it's like to be abused by spiritual leaders above me.
02:47I have a lot of respect for people who do all of the things that you do.
02:50I could never do it.
02:51It would just break my heart to see people who have gone through what you're describing.
02:56The spiritual abuse, I can do this because I get so angry whenever I see that somebody's being abused against
03:02their will.
03:03Because in many ways, I know it can never be as bad as the other things you described.
03:09But in many ways, it's more enduring because the person who is a victim of the spiritual abuse believes that
03:15it's divinely inspired spiritual abuse.
03:19And so, their brain just connects it with God and they just suffer through this abuse.
03:24I would do anything within my power to break people from this.
03:28Yeah, well, I have seen some of your videos and I think that's exactly what you're doing.
03:35And you've actually helped me, John.
03:39One of the things that I'm realizing is really how, like, NAR, you know, Harvest Rock Church is part of
03:48NAR.
03:49And how really cultic the whole system is.
03:55So, I guess I should start there.
03:58I met Che Aon, who is one of the, I guess he's considered like a super apostle over NAR.
04:08Definitely one of the people who promoted it.
04:13You know, like some apostles and prophets of NAR don't even want to acknowledge that they're part of NAR.
04:20But I think Che is very proud of that.
04:23He wrote a book where he just talks about, you know, how they're like on the cutting edge and God's
04:32chosen leaders for today.
04:36So, I met Che when I was only 19 years old.
04:40I told you, I lived in the Philippines, you know, for the first part of my life.
04:46But I was dating his brother.
04:49Sorry, not his brother.
04:51His wife's brother.
04:53So, his wife, Sue Aon, is the sister of my ex-husband.
05:00So, I am no longer with her brother.
05:04But we were dating back, oh my gosh, 1986 is when I first met the Aons.
05:18And, you know, I guess there's a reason why cultish leaders are very successful.
05:26There is something about their charisma, the way they carry themselves, it just draws you in.
05:38And I actually came here to the United States very broken.
05:44I mentioned that I was sexually abused as a child.
05:51And, you know, and so coming here to the United States, not knowing anyone, still trying to deal with all
06:03the stuff that I left behind in the Philippines.
06:05You know, I mean, my family was kind of dysfunctional.
06:09Not really going to get into that here anyway.
06:13But, yeah, so by the time I met Che and Sue, I was ripe for the pickings, as they say.
06:24I hung on their every word, you know.
06:28They led me to the Lord.
06:29So, I went from being a Catholic to a Protestant.
06:34And the first few years were actually not bad.
06:38But, you know, they love-bombed me into their circle.
06:43And I really felt like I found my new family.
06:48So, they became, and then we, you know, my husband and I, we got married in 1986.
06:54Like, it was a very fast courtship.
06:56So, yeah, by the end of 86, I was already married into the family.
07:01I was already immersed in the church system.
07:05Now, back then, Che On was not yet part of NAR.
07:11He was part of a different cult, which I should say, called, now they're called Sovereign Grace Ministries.
07:19And it wasn't until, I guess, 1994 that his associate pastor, Lou Engel, and Che started Harvest Rock Church.
07:35So, I have been with them from that time, that, you know, very early age in my life.
07:48And I was just telling you before, you know, we started this show, it's been almost 40 years.
07:5540 years of really drinking the Kool-Aid by the pitchers, you know, like, not little sips.
08:04Like, I was very much immersed in the whole system.
08:12I want to share a book that I've been rereading.
08:18Can I do that?
08:19It's not even a spiritual book.
08:20It's called Shadows of the Neanderthal, Illuminating the Beliefs That Limit Our Organizations by David Hutchins.
08:31So, this is a book that I had to read when I was getting my social science credential.
08:40I was a high school teacher here in Los Angeles for 23 years.
08:44I taught government, economics, and history.
08:48So, as part of my social science credential, I had to have some, like, psychology units.
08:58So, I read this book, and it came at the right time because that was also when I was leaving
09:05Harvest Rock Church.
09:08I had just gotten divorced.
09:12And, yeah, so this book, I am rereading it because it really is about leaving cults, leaving very toxic environments.
09:25And, you know, the author talks about this thing called mental models.
09:33Are you familiar with that term?
09:35I am.
09:35So, I'm just going to read this.
09:38So, mental models was a concept coined in 1943 by Kenneth Craig, and he suggested that the mind constructs small
09:49-scale models of reality that it uses to anticipate events.
09:55Mental models help shape behavior, including approaches to solving problems and performing tasks.
10:02So, I feel like that's what happened to me is I totally just embrace this mental model that was presented
10:17to me by my former brother-in-law, Cheon.
10:21And it, despite the fact that I was educated, you know, I had a degree in economics from George Washington
10:32University.
10:33Like, you know, I wasn't, you know, an ignorant dummy when I joined the church.
10:44But it's like a very slow process, but it's like a very slow process, you know, of conditioning where it
10:52was absolute obedience to your senior pastor, absolute obedience to your husband.
10:59And it's almost like my brain.
11:03And it's almost like my brain just shut down.
11:05And so, when I'm reading this book, you know, it talks about these five cavemen in the cave, and all
11:14they know is the cave, and they think that's it.
11:18Like, this is our world.
11:21We can't go out there because it's very dangerous.
11:24We don't know what's out there.
11:26So, we may be miserable, and we're, you know, it's kind of funny.
11:31It's like they're sucking on rocks and eating dead bugs to survive.
11:36But that's all they know.
11:38You know, it's safe.
11:39It's familiar.
11:41So, they just stay there until someone actually, one of the cavemen, ventures out and realizes, whoa, you know, like,
11:51it's a big, beautiful world out there.
11:54And he goes back to the cave and tries to tell all the other cavemen, like, hey, you got to
11:59come out.
12:00Like, we, you know, we were told a falsehood, you know.
12:05And so, of course, we know he's telling the truth, but the cavemen think, oh, no, no, no.
12:13This is, you know, you're dangerous.
12:15And they kill him.
12:17They kill the truth teller.
12:19So, I'm really finding, you know, just interesting parallels that as I'm learning from you, John, and other podcasters, you
12:33know, exposing NAR for what it is, exposing my former brother-in-law for who he is.
12:40It's almost like I'm opening myself up to this big, beautiful world and realizing, man, I have been sitting in
12:54a dark cave too long.
12:56And I really, you know, I really want to help other cavemen come out of the caves, come out of
13:07their legalistic structures.
13:11And, you know, I think of that verse from 1 Corinthians, I wrote it down, 1 Corinthians 13, verse 12.
13:24And it talks about how we can only know in part, right?
13:28We see through a glass darkly.
13:31And it's not till, you know, we get to heaven and we see Jesus like, oh, so you're Jesus.
13:37This is your, there's a real Jesus.
13:39This is the real heaven, you know?
13:42Because, again, all we have here are just shadows and, you know, our own interpretations even, right, of the Bible.
13:53And so it can be very confusing and in churches like Harvest Rock Church and other NAR churches, it can
14:03be downright deceptive when the leaders, the preachers, the pastors are kind of giving us this false narrative of how
14:17church should be like.
14:19And I think the greatest harm that my former brother-in-law, Che On, did was when it became apparent
14:32to me that I had married an abusive narcissist.
14:36You know, my ex-husband was a cruel man.
14:40And I even suffered, you know, not just, not just mental and emotional abuse, but also towards the end of
14:49our marriage, physical abuse.
14:51And I told Che and Sue, like, I can't do this anymore.
14:55You know, this is like, I'm either gonna, like, take my own life or, I mean, he could kill me,
15:05right?
15:05And we had three kids at that time.
15:08They were very young.
15:10When I, you know, when I finally told the truth, I had been kind of protecting my husband for a
15:18while.
15:18But I finally told Che and Sue, like, you know, your brother is really harming me and the kids.
15:28And their reaction, I guess, is typical of these kinds of churches, you know, just submit more, obey more, work
15:36harder.
15:37You know, the burden is always placed on the woman.
15:40And the guy basically gets away, you know, scot-free.
15:48And so I think I finally got the courage to leave when my parents also immigrated because, you know, they
15:59were living in the Philippines.
16:00But they immigrated here to the U.S.
16:03And I told them the truth.
16:05And they were, first of all, aghast.
16:09They were like, we think you're part of a cult.
16:13And I should have listened to them.
16:16I wasn't convinced that I was part of a cult yet.
16:18Remember, I'm still drinking the Nara Kool-Aid.
16:21But I did agree with them that my life was in danger, right?
16:27My life and the lives of my children needed to be protected.
16:31And my senior pastor, Che, wasn't doing anything to protect me.
16:38And so with my parents' help, I got out, filed for divorce.
16:45And, yeah.
16:46And so, you know, I was able to leave.
16:52Well, actually, truth be told, I got kicked out.
16:59So another long story that I'm not going to get into, but, you know, I would still go, okay?
17:05I mean, that's how much I really was into all the teachings and, you know, the fellowship.
17:16You know, I think that's the hardest thing about leaving a cult is the fellowship, you know, the friends.
17:21So I wasn't ready to leave all of that yet.
17:25I had already been divorced.
17:27But, you know, I still wasn't convinced that the church wasn't, you know, what was really bad for me.
17:36But I didn't know that.
17:38So I continued to go until finally my brother-in-law said, um, this is, you know, this is probably
17:46not the right place for you.
17:48Now that I'm divorced from his brother-in-law.
17:53So long story short, I went to a different church, much healthier, word-based, non-charismatic.
18:03And, um, but later on, after, I don't know, 20 years of that, I found myself in another NAR church.
18:15Um, you know, they, they say like once a charismatic one, you know, always a charismatic.
18:22So I just decided I'm going to give it another try.
18:26And that also turned out quite badly.
18:32So here I am, uh, I'm now 60 years old, John, and I am just now really stepping back, like
18:44a hard step back and looking at all the things that I had once really believed in.
18:52And, and again, I really appreciate the fact that there are people like you who are taking the time to
19:01give us hard evidence.
19:02Like I've always, I've, I've always been a great student.
19:06I, I love doing research and, um, you know, I'm a historian, you know, I taught history.
19:12So I've been loving all your material, you know, because I thought NAR started with C. Peter Ragnar, and I
19:21didn't know that it went all the way back to William Brougham and all, all them guys.
19:28So, yeah, that's pretty much it, John.
19:30That's my life in a nutshell.
19:32I hate to say this, but as you were talking, you were bringing back so many fond memories.
19:38And as the story continued, then suddenly you started making all of these triggers in my head fire of all
19:43of the bad memories as I'm going through.
19:46Because I remember many of the things.
19:48So my, I was born and raised in Branhamism, as many people know.
19:53It was a good life for me.
19:55It was a really happy life.
19:56And I can say, I can use the phrase love bombing, and it kind of makes sense, but it was
20:01more than that.
20:02In the 1980s, there was this weird feeling of family when you're in these types of groups.
20:08And there was none of the, there was no, I guess, exposure of all of the hidden stuff.
20:14So all you had was the happy, you had none of the bad.
20:18And I had, I had no reason to leave.
20:20I had no reason to want to leave.
20:22But I started watching some of the leadership doing things that just, it didn't sit right with me.
20:28And here I am, you know, in the 1980s, I was in my teens.
20:31So I obviously couldn't do anything about it.
20:34But as time progressed, I started noticing that there were, there was a shift in the people themselves.
20:41And I'm not talking about just the rank and file members in the church.
20:44I'm talking about even the leadership.
20:45There was a shift.
20:46And I think what happened, the access to information, as time continues, access to information gets more easily available.
20:55And so some of the critical information starts to seep out.
20:59I have, through my research, I have gone through history, and I've seen that this thing ebbs and flows.
21:05It'll start out, the love bombing, everybody's happy.
21:08And then everybody finds out.
21:10Then it turns destructive.
21:12Then it gets super destructive.
21:14Then it just reinvents itself and comes out as something else.
21:18So where you say Gnar, I may say Latter Rain.
21:21I may say, you can go all the way back through time.
21:24And this just pattern just keeps happening.
21:27But when you mention the book, I've mentioned this a couple times on the podcast.
21:31I was on a business trip.
21:34My business was, I was working with the medical industry, and I had to go to a company out in
21:40Raleigh, North Carolina.
21:42So I'm in Raleigh, and I had a connecting flight in Atlanta.
21:46As I'm, I think it was Atlanta, I'm flying out of Atlanta.
21:49And I just happened to be sitting next to probably some famous psychologist and had the most wonderful conversation.
21:56When he found out that I had came out of what I did, he was just fascinated.
22:00And I became, it's a guinea pig.
22:02So he's, he's teaching me.
22:04He's trying to learn from me.
22:06He's trying to extract my information.
22:08And then at the end of the, towards the end of the flight, he starts recommending some books that I
22:13read.
22:13One of which I've mentioned several times, propaganda.
22:16When I read this, I began to understand there, there's a psychological effect that they're using.
22:21It's a technique.
22:23But still, I go back to those happy times.
22:26And I think through, I have friends who were in the ministry who were really, really good people.
22:32But I watched the system change them over time into, I don't know if I can say bad people, but
22:38they, they don't do good things.
22:40I'll say it like that.
22:42And so I can see the shift in the pattern that's emerging because of just the sheer foundation of the
22:50movement.
22:51And then, I don't think I've mentioned this before.
22:53Some of the books that he had me read, which I did read them, were books by authors that a
23:00lot of my listeners would just say, oh, no, you can never read this guy.
23:04But I'm not like this.
23:05I want to know.
23:06I want to read.
23:07One of them, I don't know if I've mentioned this before.
23:09One of them was by, I think it was Joseph Campbell, A Hero with a Thousand Faces.
23:14And I read it, and obviously, I didn't agree with everything because you can't as a Christian.
23:19But what I did pick up out of that book is the patterns that emerge from all of the pagan
23:25religions.
23:27And then our, as humans, our way to connect to those patterns.
23:33And you can see those patterns all through even Hollywood.
23:36Lion King, for example.
23:37You've got the young Simba who rises up, right?
23:42And you've got the very powerful father.
23:45You've got the love.
23:46This system really connects with people, and people want this.
23:51And when I use that pattern and apply it to some of the doctrines and teachings, it's a little bit
23:56scary because you're faced with the question, are they doing this on purpose, or is this a learned strategy?
24:04Are they putting these things out in a way that people connect with them because there's a lot of money
24:10in it, if you really think about it?
24:12Or do they really believe it?
24:15And the problem that I had once I started reading the Bible over and over and over again, some of
24:21those patterns aren't compatible with Christianity.
24:23But you see those same patterns begin to emerge, especially in the New Apostolic Reformation.
24:28So I was faced with the question, A, was this a learned thing, or did they just absorb it?
24:37But B, how has it managed to keep manifesting itself from movement to movement through all of this time?
24:45Great question.
24:47So I'm going to, yeah, I want to piggyback on what you're saying.
24:53I can't answer the question, but I will add to it.
24:58So the book, again, this book, it comes from Plato's The Republic.
25:06It's kind of based on what he wrote.
25:10And that was one of the books that he had me read, by the way.
25:12Yeah, yeah, it's a great, you know, it's a classic for a reason, right?
25:18And in The Republic, Plato talks about the parable of the cave.
25:23So very similar, right, to what I just said.
25:28And this is what Plato came up with.
25:31This is his conclusion after talking about the cave and how all the truth tellers who dared to leave and
25:37explore,
25:38you know, they get killed, they get stoned, right?
25:41It's always a truth teller that gets harmed.
25:44Everybody else just like, no, leave us alone, you know, we're drinking the Kool-Aid, everything's fine, you know.
25:51So Plato said this, we're all misguided cave dwellers operating under incomplete or distorted perceptions of reality,
26:03and we violently resist others who have different perceptions.
26:15And that word really jumped out at me, you know, that it would be great if we all were truly
26:22open-minded, you know,
26:24and if we all like, well, this is what my parents taught me, but maybe let me explore, let me
26:31try, you know.
26:35And maybe it's the way my parents raised me.
26:40They really did, even though they were Catholic, they really did raise me to have critical thinking skills.
26:48And so even though I was seeped in the New Apostolic Reformation teachings,
26:56there was always that thinking in the back of my mind, like, is this even scriptural?
27:01Like, is this even, you know, and now that I have fully stepped back, you know, it's very glaring to
27:08me.
27:09And I think the most obvious reason why we should now take a good hard look at the results, you
27:21know, like you said,
27:22whether the leader does it knowingly or unknowingly,
27:27whether he's just really a wolf devouring sheep and they just want to build their own empire and make a
27:34lot of money.
27:35Like, I'm sure there are some like that.
27:37I honestly feel the vast majority of them, this is all they know.
27:42Like, this is the cave.
27:43This is the cave that they grew up in and they like it and they're getting benefits from it.
27:49So, you know, maybe they're the head cave dwellers.
27:54So it works for them.
27:56And, you know, it's a system that they are very familiar with and it's predictable.
28:03You know, and again, that's part of human nature.
28:05We want what's predictable.
28:07You know, we go into church and we always sit in the same seat.
28:12Right.
28:13And it's, we're, we're creatures of habit.
28:17So, so my point is, I agree with Plato, you know, that, that we're all just trying to figure out
28:29this world that God made.
28:31He knows what's what.
28:33He's not confused.
28:36But it's okay for us to be confused sometimes.
28:39It's okay for us to question, you know.
28:42Like, I didn't know about that.
28:44You know, I, I remember when I was still going to Harvest Rock Church and I was part of a
28:52life group and I was reading this psychological book.
28:57Right.
28:57And I think it was Christian.
29:00I don't know.
29:01I don't remember.
29:04But I brought up something, you know, when we were having a discussion in our Bible study.
29:10And the life group leader just looked at me like, you know, where did you get that idea?
29:18I'm like, oh, I'm reading a book.
29:19Oh, what book is that?
29:21And I said the book.
29:23I don't even remember now.
29:24It's so many years ago.
29:24And he's like, and he's just like, you know, and he writes it down.
29:30And then later on, he, he pulls my husband aside and says, do you know that your wife is reading
29:39this book?
29:41And, you know, I mean, my husband, my ex-husband, you know, he might be a controller, but he doesn't
29:48care what I do.
29:50And when I'm, you know, when I actually have a downtime and I'm reading a book in bed, like, you
29:56know, he's not going to be like, we didn't have that kind of a marriage.
29:59Okay.
30:00I do now.
30:01I have an amazing husband now.
30:03I'm remarried and we're, we're partners in every way.
30:06But now this was, this was my husband who didn't care about me.
30:10Okay.
30:11And so he tells us the life group leader, like, nope, never, never heard of that book.
30:18And then he gets a scolding.
30:20He gets a stern, like admonition from, from the, the leader saying, well, you need to screen every book that
30:31Pia reads.
30:32And, you know, and you need to come to us.
30:35Like, you need to make sure, filter it through us too, blah, blah, blah.
30:39And then it went all the way up to Chae and Sue, you know, and, and Chae, Chae's actually asking
30:44me like, what is this I hear about some book that you're reading?
30:48And I, that's when I realized like, what is going on?
30:54Oh my gosh.
30:55You know, like, like, what did I just step into?
30:59Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
31:07reign, charismatic and other fringe movements?
31:09Into the New Apostolic Reformation?
31:12You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
31:19On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
31:27John McKinnon, and others,
31:29with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:33You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:40If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
31:46top.
31:47And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:52watching.
31:53On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:58I had a guy tell me one time, we were in a meeting, in a business meeting, and he said,
32:03we're all just big gumballs in a big gumball machine and you never know who's going to turn the dial.
32:09And at the time he said this, I was thinking, that is the most useless statement I have heard anybody
32:14make in a meeting.
32:15That has no relevance to anything.
32:17But the funny part of it is, now that I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm examining all of these
32:23different movements,
32:24all of these apostolic networks, that statement actually applies.
32:28Because you never know, when you're going to church, you never know what the pastor's going to be.
32:32You never know who the small group leader's going to be.
32:35It's like you don't know who's going to turn that dial and you don't know what he's going to believe
32:40and how.
32:40It actually applies and it gives relevance to – I have people tell me that sometimes I'll say things like
32:50I did just a few minutes ago
32:51and I don't really give a good example.
32:54So I'm going to give an example that kind of binds all this together.
32:58Apostolic authority, spiritual covering.
33:00When I'm talking about things that get progressively worse and things that may have good intention,
33:05the leaders may actually believe that they're doing good.
33:10There's a pattern that emerges, especially within the more strict versions of Christianity,
33:17where people come in contact with outside information that doesn't really agree with the core theology.
33:24And so to keep them from quote-unquote straying, you have to kind of watch them.
33:31And so what happens is people will watch each other and see what they do.
33:36Maybe they're reading a book.
33:37Maybe they're watching a television show.
33:39Well, then you have to confront them because, hey, if you keep doing this, you're going to go astray.
33:45And they feel like it's their responsibility to lead you instead of the Holy Spirit to lead you.
33:51And so from its core inception, I think it was good intentions.
33:55You look back at some of the – like the Puritan religion, the Quakers, you can see that they –
34:01that was their lifestyle.
34:01That's just how they lived.
34:03The problem is, as time goes on, some of those things, because they're not really good structures,
34:10as the outside world grows more complex, these primitive structures can't fit with the outside world.
34:17And so you're suddenly faced with this clash between cultures, right?
34:20The problem is, in the Pentecostal charismatic movement, that clash between cultures is seen as a battle between good and
34:30evil.
34:30The evil spirits have now taken over this world, and they don't really recognize – it's not so much that.
34:36It's just that the culture has shifted from this doctrine that is stagnant.
34:41But instead of trying to adapt, they want to uphold the stagnant doctrine.
34:46So this emerges as, well, they're getting outside information.
34:51What they really need is, we need a system where we can have somebody who's watching over them to make
34:55sure they don't read the book.
34:57So let's create an apostolic governance committee, or whatever they want to call it, spiritual covering.
35:03And they tried this with the shepherding movement.
35:06They created the shepherds who were watching the shepherds of, you know, cascading authoritarian control.
35:12And realized that this is bad in practice.
35:14This turns very good people to do very bad things.
35:18And then, like I said, the cycle continues.
35:21People will forget about that, and history repeats itself.
35:24Yes.
35:25Well, it's just like going from one cave to the next cave.
35:28Yeah.
35:30Where you have the head cave dweller in one cave saying, no, this has got to be like this.
35:37And so you're like sneaking out of that cave like, oh, no, I don't want that.
35:40But you go to the next cave, and you just meet the next head cave dweller over there.
35:46So, you know, I think the point that we're both trying to make, John, is why do we limit ourselves
35:54to living in caves?
35:56You know, we were never meant to live in caves.
35:59You know, God created this big, beautiful world.
36:03And of course, of course, there's evil, right?
36:06Of course, there's non-believers.
36:09And I still believe in, you know, the Great Commission.
36:13Like, I'm a missionary.
36:14So we go, you know, to the Philippines, and I actually preach in churches over there, you know?
36:23And because I am charismatic, I will pray over people, you know?
36:29I'm not going to be like a Benny Hinn.
36:32But, you know, I pray for people for their healing and whatever, you know?
36:37But it's just we have really allowed ourselves to be so limited in how church should look like, how our
36:51fellowship times should look like, how our Bible study times should look like, you know?
36:57And you're absolutely right.
36:59There's so much monitoring, right, coming from, you know, the higher-ups that you're almost paranoid to, you know, can
37:09I watch this movie?
37:11Like, you know, well, there's no sex in it, but, you know, it's not, you know, Christian per se.
37:17And, like, it just gets ridiculous because I remember when I started dating my husband right now is a firefighter.
37:26He's as down-to-earth and as grounded as you're going to get, which is wonderful, you know?
37:32And he did not have any of this, like, religious background.
37:37He was not charismatic when I first met him.
37:41He really isn't charismatic now, to be honest, you know?
37:47But, hey, we both love God.
37:49We both love the Bible.
37:50And, you know, we have Christian friends.
37:53And we keep it simple these days.
37:57But anyway, when I first met him and we were dating and getting to know one another, and by now
38:03I'm in my early 40s, right?
38:06So I got divorced, you know, at 30 years old and met my husband in my early 40s.
38:16And he's bringing up movies.
38:19And I'm like, nope, didn't watch that.
38:22Nope.
38:23And then we're listening to music.
38:25Like, what kind of music do you like?
38:26And honestly, all I had been listening to was just worship music.
38:30So, you know, and he's bringing up artists.
38:32And it's almost embarrassing, like, you know, I don't know any of those artists.
38:38And he's like, where have you been?
38:41Like, what, you know, like, what have you been listening to?
38:45And it's like, that's the problem.
38:46Like, I honestly, you know, wasn't, I didn't feel comfortable.
38:52I didn't trust myself to even figure out what kind of music I like.
38:58You know, what kind of movies do I like?
39:01Because, again, there was always this expectation of only watching, reading, listening to, you know, Gnar-approved materials.
39:19Yeah.
39:20I'm going to put it that way.
39:21So, I mean, we, I laugh about it now, John, but in reality, it's scary and it's very tragic because
39:33I'm one of the lucky ones that got out, you know, in time.
39:41I still have friends who are in marriages, for example.
39:47And, again, I am not one to, like, get a divorce.
39:50Like, no.
39:52But if you are being physically harmed and, you know, maybe there are listeners right now, right?
39:59If you're being physically harmed, if you're being emotionally harmed, mentally harmed by your partner, then at least give yourself,
40:12you know, a time of separation.
40:16Because it's just so sad when I, you know, I have people come to me for prayer and they've been
40:27in these very abusive marriages or abusive partnerships and they don't even know how to get out.
40:37You know, we're talking about, you know, we're talking about systems, but I want to bring it down to, like,
40:42the microcosm, right?
40:44The individual people under these systems who can't even think for themselves, you know, women who've shut off their brains
40:55and they really truly feel like this is it, you know?
41:01Like, so, going back to that cave analogy, maybe they're the ones in the darkest parts of the cave that
41:08nobody, you know, nobody sees them, nobody wants to hear their stories.
41:13They're sitting right next to us at church and we don't even know, you know, the kind of traumas that
41:21they carry.
41:21And they're not getting the healing that they need because of this, like, oh, let's just all hold hands and
41:30sing Kumbaya, right?
41:32And, you know, let's all just pretend.
41:34Let's all just continue with this facade that we're really happy in this cave.
41:44I was thinking as you were talking about the music, as you can see, I'm a musician and music fascinates
41:49me, but the study of historical music as it relates to Christianity, for me, it's a crazy interesting study that's
41:56fully untapped.
41:58I grew up hearing sermon after sermon after sermon pre-recorded because we listened to recordings of William Branham of
42:06how the Beatles music was awful.
42:07So, Beatles was number one, Elvis was number two, we can't listen to Elvis.
42:12So, he's talking about, you know, music from the 40s, 50s, and 60s.
42:17The first time I heard the Beatles, I was like, well, this sounds a lot less than some of the
42:23modern Christian music.
42:25It sounds, it's not so bad.
42:26They're talking about love and peace and happiness.
42:28Why would we not want this?
42:30But the funny part of it is I remember hearing sermons where they were specifically condemning the beat style.
42:37The different types of phrases that you hear in the music.
42:42And then, fast forward 15 years, a decade later, when music culture has shifted around them, well, now the new
42:49culture is the evil one, and the old culture actually makes it into the music.
42:55Yes, yes.
42:55I'll never forget my surprise.
42:57When I left, we weren't allowed to listen to rock and roll music at all.
43:00I left, and people are kind of like your husband was with you.
43:04I would have co-workers or employees who would say, hey, did you hear the song by, and they would
43:10list off some song from the 80s that I didn't hear.
43:13And so, I'm listening to new music.
43:15The moment I came across Midnight Special, I nearly had to walk out of the building.
43:20I was so shocked because we had Christian words basically to the entire music of this.
43:28They had actually robbed a rock and roll song, and yet they're preaching and condemning rock and roll.
43:34But the decades had shifted, and so they didn't really recognize.
43:39So, the very thing they're preaching about really is modern culture when it comes right down to it.
43:43Like you said about the cave, we want to live in this cave.
43:47If everything else grows up around us, we're going to stay in this cave.
43:51The problem is, it's usually the more fundamentalist types of Christians that do this.
43:58The ones who are very strict by the book, by the code, and they don't even recognize that some of
44:05the codes don't apply.
44:06For example, it changes the way that you read the Bible.
44:11When Paul writes a letter, he's writing to an ancient culture that no longer exists.
44:15And many of the things that he says, some of it is applicable, yes, but not all of it really
44:21is.
44:21For example, how many of you are going to go out of the building and walk down the street and
44:26greet someone with a holy kiss?
44:28You don't do this in today's world.
44:30They might slug you, right?
44:32You just don't do that.
44:34Another good example, I've used this one a few times.
44:37There are certain Pentecostals that believe that the Old Covenant law must be upheld today, and yet they're eating shellfish,
44:46which was one of the laws.
44:48You can't do this.
44:50Another funny one is that there's a law that you can't mix clothing.
44:55You can't have two types of clothing.
44:57They believe that the reason for this is whenever the warring nations would come, if they took captives, you could
45:05tell your people from their people by the clothing that was worn, which kind of makes sense if that's true.
45:10But that law today, I mean, even what I'm wearing right now has mixed clothing, right?
45:16Right, right.
45:16Two types of clothing.
45:18So, if you try to remain static, like you said, in that cave, you're totally missing not only the world
45:25around you, you're also missing what the Bible is actually saying to you.
45:29Yeah.
45:29Well, I think of what Jesus said to the Pharisees when he said, you know, like, you hypocrites.
45:38Like, you would strain a gnat, but swallow camels.
45:45And that, I think, is the biggest thing I have against these spiritually abusive leaders.
45:54You know, some of them are actual wolves, I think.
45:57Definitely, if you're out there having affairs with your secretaries or going after your young interns, you know, I mean,
46:07yeah, like, please step down, you know.
46:10But even those like my former brother-in-law, you know, like, I mean, he's not a bad guy, right?
46:18I mean, he's running for governor of California.
46:24And I'm not going to tell you not to vote for him or vote for him.
46:29Like, that's, you know, like that my experience is my experience.
46:33But I will say this, sometimes in the zeal of these very ultra religious, you know, holy, holier than thou
46:49type of spiritual leaders and pastors, you know, they're so careful about, you know, don't wear that dress because you
46:59might cause men to stumble.
47:01Don't even wear makeup or whatever.
47:03And yet, they themselves might be lusting and looking at porn behind closed doors, you know, or they treat women
47:15like they're second class citizens, you know.
47:18And so that's why Jesus said, it's like, you forget the bigger loss of mercy and grace and compassion and,
47:26you know, helping the poor and all of that, you know.
47:30And I think that's why even as I'm deconstructing from some of the, again, NAR theologies and doctrinal practices that
47:41I've been so immersed in, there are some things that I know I'm called to do, you know.
47:52It doesn't change the fact that my husband and I still have our school in the Philippines, you know, for
47:59poor children.
48:00We have our safe house for abused women and children, you know, in the Philippines.
48:05Like, when I'm over there, John, it's very clear cut.
48:10Like, I don't have to worry about what is politically correct and what is, you know, like my conversation with
48:22people over there.
48:24It's, I don't have to watch what I say because of certain people in the room.
48:32I mean, there is so much division going on right now within the political arena, the religious arena here in
48:44America that it can make your head spin, you know, really.
48:51And so, people sometimes, you know, they pray for me.
48:55They say, oh, you're going back to the Philippines.
48:57Well, we'll pray for you.
48:58And I say, yes, you know, I'll take the prayers.
49:01But honestly, when I go there, like, it's, I have a, sometimes an easier time when I'm over there because
49:11I love what I do.
49:13You know, I mean, it's hard listening to the stories of these girls, but it's what I was called to
49:18do.
49:18I'm equipped for it.
49:20So, you know, I consider it an honor, right, and a privilege to be able to help the people over
49:30there.
49:31It's when I come back here that I am just like, hmm, you know, I just spend my days watching
49:39YouTube podcasts and reeducating myself and seeing what did I miss?
49:46Like, what am I, what am I supposed to be listening to now, Lord?
49:51Like, honestly, like, every day I ask God, like, I know you want to teach me things that I may
49:59not have had eyes to see when I was looking this way and kind of like with blinders.
50:06You know, now that my blinders are off, I'm looking around like, whoa, like, so much to see, so much
50:13to explore out here in the real world because I no longer am in a dark cave.
50:18Now, see, I'm kind of the opposite because I view the world, I don't know if you have seen the
50:23movie, but I view the world much more like the Matrix after you take the pill and you start to
50:28see all of the stuff.
50:29Yes.
50:30I see, all it takes is just a little bit of studying history and you start to see how all
50:36of this mess has crept into the modern church.
50:39And I think, I've been trying to put some sort of a thought behind how this happened, but I think
50:46the biggest thing is that in America, because of the way that the systems have been built with regards to
50:54religion, it has to be run as a business.
50:57There's really no way around it.
50:59If you want to pay the light bill, you have to have, it has to run as a business.
51:03And you have so many competing forms of entertainment that suck people out of the church, you have to do
51:09things exciting to bring them back in.
51:11And where do you go to get your exciting church?
51:14You go to the charismatic movement, you go to the New Apostolic Reformation, because they know how to hold the
51:19big conventions.
51:19They know how to bring the lights, cameras, action.
51:22I went to a local church that, when we left, we started just exploring churches.
51:28I didn't, I actually haven't joined anything, because I want to not be constrained to a box.
51:34And I went to this local church that I thought was just this humble little place, and I sat down,
51:39and I'm sitting here waiting for the worship music to begin.
51:41I'm expecting an organ and a piano and soft music, and then suddenly the smoke and lights start billowing.
51:48And I'm like, what on earth have you done, and why did you do it?
51:52I don't know.
51:54And, you know, it's not that I'm condemning that.
51:57I really don't care.
51:58But they borrowed that from the entertainment industry.
52:02And in my opinion, when you mix the entertainment industry with Christianity, what you get is a mixture, and the
52:08mixture isn't Christianity.
52:09It's something else.
52:10And the sad truth is, American Christianity has become so difficult to navigate.
52:18When I'm talking to someone, and I just want to have a casual conversation, I really don't want to talk
52:24about what they believe and why.
52:25Because it always comes back to me having to walk on eggshells, because I'm going to say something that they're
52:32going to think, there's a demon in our midst.
52:34And I don't want – if I'm doing a business operation, I will never get involved with a business where
52:41that's their introduction.
52:43I'm a Christian businessman.
52:45Those are usually the guys who rob me blind.
52:49But anyway, this has been crazy fun.
52:52I thoroughly enjoyed myself, and you brought back so many memories.
52:55Thank you so much for doing this.
52:56Oh, I'm very happy to be here, and you can invite me back anytime, John.
53:01If you had any advice to give people who are stuck in this type of religion, and they're stuck in
53:07that cave that you mentioned, what advice would you give them to get out of the cage?
53:11If someone comes in and says, hey, there's a big world out there, you know?
53:19And no matter how crazy they may sound, and no matter how different their perspective might be, at least listen.
53:31You know, it starts with just listening.
53:33It starts with being aware of the fact that we all have mental models.
53:38It's not good or bad.
53:40It's how we were raised.
53:42It's what we're familiar with.
53:43But if there's this deep voice, you know, deep down inside, this still small voice saying, don't you think this
53:52is a little off?
53:54You know, like after hearing a sermon, and you start to wonder, like, huh, was that even scriptural?
54:02Right?
54:03And definitely, if you are hurting, if you are hurting, whether emotionally or mentally or spiritually, you know, you just
54:14know that things are going on around you, either around you or to you.
54:19Like, like, like what happened with me, you know, by all means, you know, talk to someone outside of your
54:29little circle.
54:30Because I know God's, I know God's not happy when we are being harmed by leaders or even by our
54:45fellow believers.
54:46You know, like Paul, you know, the thing that I don't like is how some of these pastors and apostles
54:53and prophets are saying, oh, you know, accuser.
54:56John is an accuser of the brethren, you know, like, like they're there, you know, like, don't go to social
55:02media, you know, it's just full of haters and naysayers.
55:05And they're going to lead you to the devil, you know.
55:09And the thing about that is that it's insulting, isn't it?
55:14It's insulting to our intelligence.
55:18And so I would say to anyone out there who is starting to wonder, am I in the right place?
55:28You know, are these people around me safe?
55:32Listen to that still small voice, you know, because the Holy Spirit is always speaking to us.
55:38He's always showing us things and we really should have our eyes wide open.
55:45You know, Jesus says constantly, like he who has ears to hear, let him hear.
55:50He who has eyes to see, let him see.
55:53So be aware, be curious, you know, be open minded.
56:00And just know, you know, Jesus said, I will, I am with you.
56:04You know, I will never leave you nor forsake you.
56:07If Jesus is your Lord and Savior, and you fully have put your trust in him, then trust that he's
56:14not going to mislead you.
56:16He's not going to bring you down the wrong path.
56:21Because, you know, if you ask for a fish, he's not going to give you a snake, right?
56:27If you ask for a bread, he's not going to give you a stone.
56:32We need to trust that Jesus, Holy Spirit, Father God, you know, they love us, right?
56:41They speak to us, and yeah, and he wants us to go out there and look at how beautiful and
56:52how creative and how large God and his world really is.
56:58It's very good advice.
57:00Well, thanks again for doing this.
57:01You're welcome.
57:02Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
57:06You can find us at william-brannum.org.
57:09For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion,
57:13From Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
57:46You can find us at william-brannum.org.
57:48You can find us at william-brannum.org.
58:18You can find us at william-brannum.org.
58:21Bye-bye.
58:23You
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