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00:00He is the Shooky Cookie, and he is with us right now.
00:03What's up, Nick?
00:03How are you?
00:05I'm fantastic, guys.
00:06Thanks for having me on.
00:07Did you just call him the Shooky Cookie?
00:08Yeah.
00:09Tell him.
00:09We go back a long way, right?
00:11Oh, yeah.
00:11We go back to, what, 2010, Andy?
00:14Yeah, back in the day, Tom, which, by the way, great to talk to you, Tom.
00:16You too, my man.
00:17Good to see you virtually here.
00:20Yeah, back in 2010 when Andy and I first got to know each other,
00:23I was in college at Kent State, and that was in the early days of Twitter
00:26when you didn't think that your username would actually carry a lasting legacy
00:29with one certain individual for the next 16 years, but here it is.
00:33That's okay.
00:34I'll tell you what, and I don't know if people know your whole story,
00:36but total inspiration.
00:38Like, every time I'm lazy and I don't go to the gym, I think about you,
00:42and I think about how, like, you transformed your life in that gym,
00:45and so I don't want to say as an old man watching you in college,
00:49but I was unbelievably proud of your, like, your transformation
00:52into, like, this bodybuilder guy.
00:54So I know this is a little bit deep, but congratulations to you.
00:57All your success and your years of success, because every time I see him,
01:01I'm just like, man, that guy, you want to talk about drive
01:04and determination to reshape the way you –
01:07He's put together.
01:08I would pencil him in a left tackle, Nick Shook.
01:10I would.
01:10That is true, Nick.
01:11I'd run behind him.
01:12He's a little undersized now.
01:13You're undersized, but that's okay.
01:15He's got good feet.
01:16Yeah, once you stop playing, you've got to kind of, you know,
01:19reshape yourself.
01:20So you can't tell, but I'm blushing.
01:23So thank you.
01:23All right, Nick, listen, let's get to –
01:26let's talk about what happened at the owners' meetings,
01:27in particular with the Browns, and, you know,
01:29now Deshaun Watson seems to be front and center again.
01:33Tell me about it, right?
01:34Same as it ever was.
01:36Right, and here's the thing.
01:37We know their situation at quarterback.
01:39We know they don't have an answer.
01:40We know that the fan base would prefer that Shador take, you know,
01:43three steps forward and become the guy,
01:44but I think the Browns are being realistic with it
01:47and also acknowledging that they still have Deshaun Watson on, you know,
01:50his contract for at least one more year.
01:52And if you're going to get something out of it,
01:53you might as well hope that maybe he makes some, you know,
01:56unexpected significant turnaround and becomes the guy that you always thought
01:59or at least hoped that you were going to get,
02:01which is kind of what explains, you know, why they've taken this approach.
02:04I think they're also just leaving every option on the table.
02:06I mean, you might as well give them a shot to go try to win the job.
02:10And if it doesn't work out, well, guess what?
02:11That's been the story of the last four years, so why not make it a fifth year?
02:14And then you, you know, retool from there.
02:17But yeah, it's funny because I caught a little bit of heat for this earlier this week
02:21and totally understandable.
02:22But if you think about ceilings, and this is not like, you know, a grand statement here,
02:26but between him and Shador, who has actually produced some sort of evidence
02:31that they could be a successful quarterback in the NFL consistently,
02:34it's been Deshaun Watson.
02:36Now that was years ago.
02:36That was five, six, seven years ago in Houston.
02:39But he's done it at least once.
02:41Given what we've seen from him over the last four,
02:43there's not a lot of evidence that he's going to do it again.
02:45But at least you've seen it at one time.
02:47So when you're looking at this, you know, situation at quarterback going into the new season,
02:51you think who has the higher ceiling?
02:53Probably the guy that once did it before.
02:56But I think that it's still a relatively low ceiling on both.
02:59So again, you might as well give them both a shot and see what you have.
03:02And maybe a coaching change helps with that.
03:03Maybe a whole year off helps with that.
03:05But if you're asking me, I'm not keeping my expectations very high for him.
03:09I think that as we all kind of understand at this point,
03:12they're going to be in the market of the position this time next year anyway.
03:15No doubt about it, Nick.
03:16What do you make, though, of Jimmy Haslam seeming 180 here on going from a swing and a miss
03:22to Deshaun can get a fresh start under Todd Munkin?
03:27Is it as simple as a coaching change that maybe has the owner thinking that
03:31this is at least salvageable for a year?
03:34I don't think that you become a billionaire and successful in business
03:38without being able to advertise yourself well.
03:40And I think that Jimmy Haslam's done quite a good job of advertising
03:44or at least spinning this toward a positive outlook going into this season.
03:49And I truly think it's because they have him under contract for one more year
03:52and there's really nothing to lose.
03:54I don't know if the coaching change necessarily makes that much of a difference.
03:58It feels more like recency is also kind of aiding him in taking this shift.
04:03Because, look, if Deshaun were to come into this season and win the job
04:07and find success, it would not look good for Jimmy's last words on Deshaun
04:11to be the big swing and a miss.
04:12So, of course, he's going to have to reposition himself going into this season.
04:15But we also think about the resurgence of Sam Donald over the last couple of years.
04:19We look at what Daniel Jones did in Indianapolis before he got hurt this past season.
04:23That is now the new train of logic in this copycat league that everybody is applying
04:27to any troubled quarterback situation with a player who may have come into the league
04:32with a lot of prominence and expectation and never delivered on that.
04:35Now, Watson's case is a little bit different because he did deliver on it early in his career,
04:39but he's just been nothing close to what he was over the last five years.
04:42And you can point to a number of different reasons that we don't really have to get into
04:45for why that's been the case.
04:47So I think he's just kind of putting himself in an advantageous spot where he can sit back
04:52and if things go really well and it becomes a dreamlike scenario,
04:54he could be on the right side of that conversation.
04:57And if it doesn't go well, we'll all forget about it anyway.
05:00All right, help me with Miles Garrett right now because the rhetoric tells me,
05:03oh, he's staying, he's going to do it, we're not going to let it.
05:06But the actions speak louder than words.
05:11Like, what happened with the contract?
05:13Why do what they did with the contract?
05:17And on paper, it looks like it's a lot easier to trade him because of what they did
05:20with the contract.
05:21So help me out with Miles Garrett and what you think their thoughts are on him.
05:24It's funny because this is also related to Watson because everything with the Browns
05:27is related to Watson.
05:28But what the Browns have done over the last four years and now this year as well
05:32is because of the massive contract that they gave him,
05:36they've had to restructure him every year.
05:38It's a very common practice in the NFL.
05:40And by restructuring, what you do is you tack on void years to the contract,
05:43which essentially extends the contract's life,
05:45but doesn't actually extend how long they're going to be on your team.
05:48It just pushes out some of the money that you owe them in terms of cap space
05:51out into future years so that you have more to work with right now.
05:55Mickey Loomis, the general manager in New Orleans, has been doing this for a decade plus.
05:58And it came to a head about four or five years ago where I thought they're going to have
06:02to get rid of a bunch of guys because they were $80 million over the cap
06:05when $80 million over the cap was a lot more significant than it is now.
06:09And in the end, they moved on from two guys.
06:11One player retired, one player went somewhere else, and everything else was fine.
06:14The Browns have taken a similar approach with their cap situation in that every time
06:18they restructure Deshaun, they add on a void year or two void years.
06:20They push out more money into the future to create immediate cap space now.
06:23And that interpretation is applied to what they did with Miles Garrett,
06:28but it's a little different because what they essentially did, from what I understand,
06:32is that they moved some of the payment times out into the future to buy themselves
06:37more flexibility to create cap space in future years.
06:40And it's a win-win in that Miles gets a larger chunk of it.
06:43It's more, I guess, I don't know if I'd use the term guaranteed,
06:46but it's more secure for him financially.
06:48It just works out for both parties.
06:49And that's immediately interpreted as any time you restructure a contract,
06:53you're looking to move a guy.
06:55If you're restructuring a contract to lessen your cap hit, if you were to move a guy,
06:59it's a sign that you're going to move a guy.
07:01I think that what they're really doing is giving themselves more options in how to manage him
07:06in the event that they were an absolute catastrophe this year or next year,
07:09and they needed to move him, and he was unhappy, and they wanted to get the most return on him,
07:15that they were able to at least afford themselves the possibility of doing that.
07:19I don't think it's a sign right now that they're going to trade him necessarily,
07:22because why do you trade a guy who's a two-time defensive player of the year
07:25and just reset the single-season sack record when the defense is the strength of your team?
07:29It just doesn't make a lot of sense unless you're trying to build a war chest of draft picks
07:33like Sashi Brown once did.
07:34And they're not in either place right now.
07:37So I think it's more of a wait-and-see and still allow yourself some freedom
07:40and flexibility in future seasons, and you get Garrett to sign up for that by saying,
07:45hey, we'll give you more of your money at this time than we would have
07:48in the previous structure of the contract.
07:51Nick, from a league standpoint, we're maybe headed towards –
07:55or we're in the middle of some messy negotiations between the NFL
07:59and the Referees Association.
08:01What's the latest there?
08:02Are we headed towards a work stoppage here at some point?
08:05Yeah, it doesn't sound great.
08:07This is something that I haven't tracked quite as closely as some of the other stuff
08:10that has been happening in the league over the last few years.
08:13But every time you get an update, like, for example,
08:15I think they were supposed to negotiate or start negotiating or talking
08:18at the annual league meeting on Sunday, and it lasted like five minutes.
08:23Right.
08:23Like, it was essentially – they made an offer, they made a counteroffer,
08:26and they're like, all right, well, we're done here.
08:27So it sounds like it's going to be dragged out.
08:29It's gotten to the point where former Browns center J.C. Treader,
08:32now the head of the NFLPA, had to convene with the Referees Association
08:37to kind of get on the same page about worries with player safety
08:41if what they would consider to be lower-level, less-experienced replacement officials
08:45were involved in the upcoming season.
08:47Kind of a leverage move to increase the sense of importance
08:52with the existing referees.
08:54So when you see that, like, when you're seeing sides pick allies
08:58in some sort of dispute, labor dispute, it's never really a good sign.
09:02So I don't think we're really that close.
09:04However, the league has taken steps, especially during this week's league meeting,
09:09to kind of insulate itself against the disaster scenario that we saw
09:13with the replacement officials and the fail-mary back in, I think, 2014
09:16or whatever that was.
09:18You know, they've opened up the possibility of involving New York in some calls
09:22and kind of just giving themselves some security in the event
09:25that they don't have the referees available.
09:27So this is a classic negotiation between two dug-in parties
09:31that I don't think is going to be resolved overnight.
09:34And it's probably something that, much like last year,
09:36we talked about the push-push for months.
09:37I think we're going to be talking about the stripes for months.
09:39All right, well, let me throw this at you.
09:40J.C. Treader came back and essentially backed the referees on this,
09:45saying that, you know, safety concerns are what they care about.
09:47They want to make sure they've got the best refs out there
09:49to make sure nobody gets hurt.
09:50But, I mean, there is a chance that the NFLPA could support the NFL,
09:56what is it called, NFL Referees Association, RA.
09:59Yeah, the NFL RA, yeah.
10:01Yeah, NFL RA, you know, that would put pressure back on the owners.
10:06That if the players came back and said, you know what, I don't know,
10:09we're worried about getting hurt if you put us out there,
10:12and then all of a sudden we've got a stalemate between both unions.
10:15I mean, it'd be really interesting to see what would happen
10:18if the players actually supported the referees in the situation.
10:21Yeah, and then it's a matter of what's most important to them
10:23because they're still going to play because there's still going to be games, right?
10:26Like, they're not going to pass up game checks because the lesser, you know,
10:30perceived to be lost to the officials.
10:32Yeah, it has happened in the past.
10:33Remember the players, they've used, I mean, they tried to bring in and replace the players
10:36as well as a kid, right?
10:38It feels like it was forever.
10:39The 80s, right?
10:39Yeah, so it'd be interesting.
10:42In their own separate labor dispute.
10:44It's not that, what's the term they always use?
10:46Scabs?
10:46It's not like scabs can't get involved in the player's side,
10:48but scab referees is a little bit of a difference.
10:51I don't think that's going to prevent the players who are under contract
10:53and have a collective bargaining agreement, you know,
10:55signed and everything with the league.
10:56It's not going to prevent them from playing,
10:58but I do think it's a good leverage point.
10:59Because a lot of this is, what is the narrative?
11:01Like, you know, the NFL is a 365-day league now.
11:04It's the most popular sport in America.
11:06It's what everybody pays attention to year-round,
11:07and especially during the fall, during football season.
11:09So the conversation never stops with the league.
11:12And if the conversation turns toward,
11:14oh, we don't have confidence in the officials,
11:16then it puts more pressure on the league.
11:18And I think that's what Treader is kind of trying to do in this scenario.
11:21Right.
11:22Kind of, again, it's just one of those classic labor negotiations
11:25where it could get a little, like, nasty on both sides.
11:27It's funny, though, because you're right.
11:29When he said that he backed them, you know,
11:30essentially what he said, I have the quote in front of me now,
11:32it says,
11:33player safety requires trained professional officials on the field.
11:35They manage the game in real time,
11:37enforce the rules and stop situations from escalating.
11:39That can't be replaced by less experienced crews or handled remotely.
11:43Handled remotely is the interesting part.
11:45They come out with this after the annual league meeting
11:48and what the league just did to kind of, you know,
11:50protect themselves security-wise from any, you know, further labor issues.
11:53So it's got to be interesting.
11:55It's going to be very interesting.
11:56The other thing I thought that was interesting about that, too,
11:58was they put that rule in place that it doesn't matter who the officials are,
12:01does it?
12:02Whether they're the regular or they'd be a replacement,
12:04that New York can chime in on any call now.
12:07That would be egregious and wrong.
12:09But I would think that if the regular officials came back,
12:12that they would drop that.
12:13That they might drop it.
12:15Could they drop a rule in the middle of the season?
12:16I don't know.
12:17No.
12:17I don't think they'd drop that because I think that that's something
12:19that people have been pushing for anyway.
12:21Because we live in an era now in which we have all these high-definition cameras.
12:24We have slow-motion replays from a billion different angles at all of these games.
12:28And it's very frustrating to the fan.
12:30And I think the league very much understands this.
12:32When they watch the game on TV,
12:33they see a clear call that was missed or was called incorrectly.
12:37And there's no power from the league to get involved
12:41and correct the officials that are on the field.
12:42I mean, we've all been to these games, right?
12:44It's chaos at times when you're down there on the field.
12:47And it's fast.
12:48It's very fast.
12:49Way faster than people realize.
12:51Yeah.
12:51And for these guys who, no offense to them,
12:54but a lot of them are headed toward middle age
12:55or their professions are as lawyers and everything else,
12:58dealing with these super athletes on the field, it's hard.
13:00It takes a lot of skill to control that chaos that happens there
13:04and make the right judgment calls in a split-second amount of time.
13:07So for the league to have any sort of kind of oversight,
13:11like there's been talk about ever since the XFL came back,
13:13which is now the UFL, they've had a sky judge in the booth.
13:15That's been a thing that people have wanted the NFL to consider adopting for years
13:19and they haven't taken that further step to do that.
13:22But the idea of New York being involved,
13:24it's beneficial from a league perspective
13:26because they'll be able to provide better oversight
13:30of what's going on when it comes to the rules
13:32and prevent the controversy
13:33or at least lessen the likelihood of controversy
13:35that often comes with some missed calls in big games.
13:38But they're also, I believe, opening up a bit of a can of worms
13:41for those on the conspiracy side, which will always exist.
13:44But they'll be like, that call came in from New York
13:46because now a call could actually come in from New York.
13:49But it's to get the call right, not to influence a can of worms is right.
13:53Nick, we are three weeks from the NFL draft.
13:56Woo-hoo!
13:57Working our way there.
13:58I think we can now finally pencil in Fernando Mendoza
14:01or pen in Fernando Mendoza.
14:03You think?
14:04After his performance yesterday.
14:06After that, I think things are a little bit up in the air.
14:09I know you've had a couple of mock drafts out.
14:11I think you have the Browns currently taking
14:14Carnell Tate number six overall,
14:16obviously addressing a major need for them.
14:19Are you firm on that?
14:24Or do you think that's open?
14:25Could there be a potential for best player available?
14:27Do you think the Browns have some other things
14:29to think about there at six?
14:31Yeah, I think that they could go in a number of different directions
14:34if they wanted to.
14:35It's a matter of how do you approach this draft?
14:38I'm always a fan of taking best player available,
14:40especially when you're taking pretty highly,
14:42because let's think about it.
14:44Are you really going to try to address the need
14:45and draft a guy 10 spots too high
14:47when there's this blue-chip player
14:49who may not be the biggest need for you
14:51but could be a transformative player for you?
14:54Can you put down some of them to address?
14:55Exactly.
14:57And that's kind of what I'm thinking here,
14:59is that can you blend the two?
15:00Because I think Tate's the best receiver in this class.
15:02He's the best contested catch receiver in this class,
15:04which is a skill that immediately translates to the next level,
15:06and it's something that the Browns sorely lack
15:08in their receiving core right now.
15:09I don't really care about his 40 time and all of that stuff
15:12because that's not his strength anyway.
15:14I think a little bit about Emeka Ibuka
15:15and the success he had during his rookie year
15:17before he started to deal with some injuries
15:19as a good kind of comparison to what Tate could do
15:22for the Browns, obviously,
15:23with a lesser quarterback at this stage of the game.
15:25And so I'm thinking, all right, this makes sense,
15:28but are you looking toward, you know, best player available
15:33because a Caleb Downs, for example, could be there.
15:36And that's why this draft gets really interesting
15:39at about picks three or four all the way to like 10.
15:43I agree.
15:43Like Cincinnati's sitting at 10.
15:46I showed up on their podcast with their play-by-play guy,
15:49Dan Hoard, great guy, and we were talking about this,
15:51and I'm thinking, man, if you had Caleb Downs fall away to 10,
15:53man, you guys should be jumping in the Ohio River for joy
15:56because that would be a massive score for you.
16:00And it just speaks to some of these defensive players,
16:03especially just the talent that they bring to the field.
16:06It's very loaded at an edge rusher.
16:07You got guys like Downs.
16:09You talk about even Sonny Stiles.
16:11You know about Arbel Reese, how they both blew up the combine.
16:13Like there's a number of guys that could still be on the board
16:16that really provide you with a blue chip player,
16:18maybe at a position that you don't necessarily need.
16:20I love the idea of them taking downs,
16:22but I was just trying to blend the two and thinking, all right,
16:26if they're really trying to go for need and best player available,
16:28you go for Tate because it makes the most sense with your overall roster.
16:33Now, we've seen this happen in the past with the Browns go toward a need
16:38and swing and miss and end up missing out on some legitimate players
16:43in past drafts, but I think that they're in a really good spot at six
16:46to really capitalize, and I think Tate would be a very good pick for them.
16:49Nick, I got like 30 seconds here.
16:51Just looked at your mock draft.
16:53It's been up for less than an hour.
16:55I do find it fascinating that Mendoza is, I believe, if I read this correctly,
17:00he's the only quarterback you have going in the first round, correct?
17:04Yep, yep, and that speaks to the class.
17:07Mendoza is far and away the guy.
17:08It's not a strong classic quarterback, but, and I know you guys already know this,
17:12you got to keep an eye on Ty Simpson because,
17:14and you got to keep an eye on Ty Simpson in Cleveland,
17:16and he's going to continue to gain steam as we get closer to the draft
17:19because people are starting to pick up on what I just picked up on in Indianapolis
17:22during the combine.
17:23The Browns are in love with him, I think.
17:25I believe that they are fascinated by him.
17:27Obviously, the relationship with Don Munkin plays a part in that.
17:29I'm worried that they take him at 24, but I'm also probably, for their case,
17:33more worried that another team catches on and takes him before that.
17:36So don't be surprised if he ends up sneaking into the first round,
17:39even if I don't necessarily think he's quite a first-round talent.
17:42Nick, your mock draft is up.
17:44Go check it out.
17:45It's at NFL.com.
17:47It is there right now.
17:48It is the hottest, latest thing to read at NFL.com,
17:50and we do appreciate your time, my friend.
17:53Thank you, Nick.
17:54You guys are the hottest, latest thing to listen to in Cleveland,
17:56so I appreciate you.
17:57Thanks, guys.
17:58Goodbye, Nick.
17:59We'll talk to you later.
18:00Nick Shook on the Make It Right Call Kyle Wright Hotline.
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