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00:01Did the Magliana gang have anything to do with Emanuele Orlandi's kidnapping?
00:07It all starts and ends with the anonymous phone call that arrived to the person who saw him and which said
00:11go and see who is buried in the Basilica of Santa Polinare or it has nothing to do with it.
00:18And now we'll explain why and how it's relevant.
00:21Now you'll hear from one of Emanuele's friends, one of his little group, they knew each other well because they always went out together.
00:28Were these the carefree times, so to speak?
00:36No.
00:39Were you classmates or friends outside of school?
00:41No, we are friends of the association Al Tempo Facciamo Parte D'Azione.
00:46Sorry, so when we talk about Emanuele Orlandi this investigation is so difficult,
00:50I mean, with us, even Antonietta and Mirella Gregori's sister sometimes make some mistakes.
00:54So I was saying carefree times because we found this photograph,
00:59if the direction can broadcast it to me, the times that this boy is talking about,
01:04before Emanuele's disappearance.
01:08Here she is, look Natalina, they don't put her in the video, you can see her there.
01:11You're right there in the middle, here it is, now we finally see it, you're right there in the middle
01:16and next to you is your sister and then your other sister.
01:21It's a beautiful photograph, that's why I wanted to start.
01:24Carefree times because many years have passed and the same years have passed for you too,
01:31Antonietta, because those are the same years as the disappearance of your sister Mirella.
01:37So, we have Antonietta here, apart from the fact that she is always in our hearts,
01:42because there is a friend who spoke, a friend of Emanuele Orlandi, Antonietta,
01:48and we want to say right away that among other things he hasn't spoken to us just now,
01:51because someone is wondering but why these memories only now?
01:55Look, this is such a good person,
01:57that what he says today is new to us too, for the first time we have interviewed him,
02:03in reality he had said it all, the whole day after Emanuela disappeared.
02:09And so his testimony was given immediately, it is very important,
02:14we are proposing it to you because he tells us that on June 21st,
02:18that is, 24 hours before Emanuela's disappearance,
02:21Today is the 20th, tomorrow the 21st, and the day after tomorrow the 22nd,
02:25Anyway, what happens on June 21st?
02:26That this little group of friends meets up as always, right?
02:31They meet but that day they are followed,
02:35they are followed by two young men and he remembers it well,
02:38you will soon hear why he remembers this disturbing fact well,
02:42so much so that he will then have identikits made.
02:44But what happens before hearing this,
02:47to make you understand how well this boy knew your sister, right?
02:52We asked him, Fiori di Rianzo also asked him something about Emanuela,
02:55because we, I must say, have come to know him through your words,
02:58Peter's words, your mother's, right?
03:00But for the first time we hear one of the friends,
03:03so that he also makes you understand what Emanuela was like,
03:07we have obscured it, you do not see his face,
03:10because he is a person we do not want to expose,
03:12because he is a very important witness in this investigation,
03:15as I was telling you before, very hard,
03:17so brave because he decided to speak
03:19and obviously we don't want to expose it.
03:21And anyway the name in his face is the influential,
03:24Emanuela Orlandi's friend spoke with Fiore di Rianzo.
03:26This is the first part of the interview about Emanuela
03:29and then we'll go to the investigation and you'll understand why they're bringing us the Magliani gang.
03:37Were you classmates or friends outside of school?
03:40No, we are friends of the association,
03:41at the time we were part of the Vatican Catholic Action,
03:44so we were a bit more of a loose group,
03:47that we went out a little sometimes, some mornings.
03:49Tell me a little about Emanuela, in short, your friend Emanuela.
03:53Emanuela had a very sunny character,
03:55in fact we very often organized theatrical shows,
04:00she was the first one to come, in short,
04:02She and I were kind of the ones who always threw ourselves forward
04:06to organize these shows,
04:08very sunny, very, let's say,
04:12of a good companion, go on, here you go.
04:15But this is between us, not outside,
04:19He wasn't the type to give you any confidence or...
04:22Before Emanuela confided in him, she had to get to know the person,
04:25because Emanuela was not, let's say,
04:30a subject who trusted immediately, was very distrustful.
04:33I then remember a detail when Roma won the championship
04:36a long time ago, a boy approached
04:38to try to take away the Roma flag from him,
04:41he can't understand what happened.
04:42He didn't let him get close at all.
04:44I mean, what did he do?
04:46There almost was a fight
04:48because he didn't want to give him the flag.
04:51Then he always said, whoever knows you, go away.
04:53But if she had had a boyfriend, for example,
04:56he would have told us.
04:57Would he have told you?
04:58Absolutely yes.
04:58And didn't she have a boyfriend?
05:00No.
05:01Wasn't she even in love with someone?
05:03As far as I know Emanuela,
05:08she would have definitely said it because she would have been happy,
05:12well, here it is.
05:13And then he would surely have shown it to us,
05:15to know, things like that.
05:17When she was free from school or music school,
05:20was he with you?
05:20Yes.
05:21Were you always together?
05:22Most of the time.
05:23Almost every day?
05:24Yes, because then we carried out this association activity,
05:28so we were also very involved in social work,
05:32in short, if we want to put it that way.
05:34Sometimes we went to visit the elderly
05:37and we organized shows for them.
05:40There was a shop in Via Capur at that time.
05:42But we were always, most of the time together,
05:47well, here it is.
05:47Look, she, obviously you also frequented her house.
05:51Yes, sometimes yes, it happened to me.
05:54So many things have been said about Emanuela,
05:56so let's take advantage of this too.
05:58How were your relationships with your family?
06:01Absolutely good.
06:03I see no reason to say otherwise.
06:05Have you ever complained about misunderstandings or things?
06:09No, she was very attached.
06:09The conversations that take place between kids?
06:11No, no, no, absolutely not.
06:12She was very close to her family, so she didn't...
06:14It was a prank that wanted to go away or something,
06:21because she was not satisfied.
06:22I can absolutely confirm the opposite, it wasn't like that.
06:27Absolutely not.
06:28She was very close to her family.
06:29And was she a happy girl?
06:32Absolutely.
06:33I have never seen Emanuela worried, nervous, agitated,
06:40for reasons...
06:41No.
06:42I am always calm, peaceful, I have never seen her, I repeat, worried,
06:47or thoughtful, or put in a corner, absolutely not.
06:51The thing that bothered me most is that it disgusts me, essentially.
06:57And it brings a few tears to my eyes.
07:00In the sense that judging Emanuela as...
07:08Getting into this car so easily bothers me that they consider Emanuela
07:16a girl like that who inspired confidence, who went out with everyone,
07:21which is absolutely not true.
07:22Let's tell who knows what he's done, this deeply annoys and disturbs me, that's true.
07:29So you think Emanuela was kidnapped?
07:32Yes.
07:33Aren't you thinking about a voluntary departure?
07:35No, absolutely not.
07:36Don't you think she could have had sexual affairs with who knows who?
07:41Absolutely not.
07:42That is, you are ruling this out based on your knowledge of Emanuela?
07:47I categorically rule it out because of my acquaintance with Emanuela in Pimese.
07:51I knew Emanuela also in terms of character, I repeat, she was not a person who gave confidence
07:56to the first person he met, both because of Emanuela's character and because I knew her,
08:03so you exclude it not completely, more so.
08:11Why does Emanuela's friend think that Emanuela was made to disappear?
08:15Because he witnessed a truly disturbing event that happened 24 hours before the disappearance.
08:21It's June 21, 1983.
08:26Let's follow the story of this friend of Emanuela's immediately after this short break.
08:30Now let's hear together the testimony of a friend of Emanuela Orlandi.
08:34We told you about it before.
08:35This is a truly important testimony.
08:37First of all, I'll tell you right away why someone might ask
08:40but why does he only remember to speak now?
08:42No, he spoke right away.
08:43The problem is also a bit how the investigations were conducted at the beginning.
08:48I must say that, rereading the book, it is alive with strong clarity.
08:51For example, I read that at a certain point both the police and the secret services go to the music school.
08:55secrets
08:56that everyone wants the attendance books
09:00and they fight over these notebooks and then later they call the police station and tell them to make photocopies.
09:04So the problem is that the investigations resumed with force years later
09:08especially after our phone call, this anonymous one that arrived at the Basilica of Santa Polinare on De Pedis.
09:15So this boy, he had already told these things
09:19tells of a tailing that took place the day before Emanuela Orlandi's kidnapping
09:2524 hours before.
09:27By the way, something similar also happened in the case of your sister Antonietta, for Mirella Gregori
09:32exactly 24 hours before, two young men show up at your family's bar.
09:37So obviously we didn't give Fiore De Rienzo his name, his face is obscured.
09:43because it is a testimony that we believe is very important for this investigation
09:48because this young man recognizes among the photographs that were recently shown to him by the investigators
09:55the man who had followed them in '83.
09:58Let's hear it.
10:03It was the day before she disappeared.
10:05So June 21st.
10:07Exact.
10:07We had agreed to go for a simple walk.
10:12It was me, Emanuela and some other friends.
10:15And we decided to go and see a shop that at the time was called GiocaGio.
10:21It was a video game store.
10:23We were curious because it was newly opened.
10:27Something new.
10:32Arriving in front of the entrance to the Vatican, Sant'Anna reports, we waited with these friends for ten minutes, Emanuela came out.
10:41Greetings, kisses, hugs as was our custom.
10:45We turned around but it was a feeling shared by everyone.
10:51In the sense that we turned around, we found two young people in front of us who were looking at us from a safe distance.
10:58But, I repeat, it was a very, very strange feeling.
11:02So much so that even Emanuela turned around and said, but who knows what they wanted.
11:08One was in front of the traffic light opposite and the other on the opposite side of the traffic light.
11:15However, what intrigued us was that the gaze was completely focused on us.
11:22So we decided to set off.
11:24But then the gaze moved on.
11:28I turned around, I don't know why, but I felt a really strange sensation.
11:33And we found them behind us.
11:34In the meantime, what did I do to Emanuela?
11:36Emanuela knows they're coming after you.
11:38We thought it was, as I say, a bit Roman, a classic pickup approach.
11:45We walked there, when we arrived at Piazza di Sorgimento, one of them left us and went away.
11:51And the other continued.
11:54But, I repeat, it was very strange because he followed us at a safe distance,
11:59but with a direct gaze on us.
12:03So much so that we said to ourselves, but what does this guy want.
12:08We crossed Viale Giulio Cesare, which was in front of this shop,
12:13right in front of the stop where Ottaviano is now.
12:16So from the other side we entered.
12:18We were in there for about 20 minutes.
12:22We saw some games, it was a video game store.
12:25We made it and I found myself facing him again.
12:31And that both intrigued me and puzzled me a little, as they say.
12:38Because my volunteer to go and say what he wanted, but since I'm a little shy, I'm not there
12:48left.
12:48Were you a kid too?
12:50Yes, not even about 14 years old.
12:56We go back, same tailing, same fixed gaze.
13:01The other, I repeat, was no longer there.
13:04We head back towards Piazza Risorgimento, with him always behind us.
13:07We went back to Porta Sant'Anna and we stayed there for another 10 minutes talking, but I turned around
13:14and I was still there.
13:16At a certain point Manuela had to go back, because it was the last day she had the flute lesson, so at
13:21school of Santa Polinare.
13:22We said goodbye and as usual Manuela just came in, I turned around and disappeared.
13:30It was no longer there.
13:32Time to turn around, everyone goes and it was gone.
13:35But how old could he have been?
13:36Bigger than us.
13:37Bigger than you?
13:39I remember the detail about the sneakers.
13:41It was an Adidas model that was very envied by us young people at the time, because it was a super model, as we used to say,
13:50super nice.
13:50It is white, with colored stripes on the side, gold trim, Adidas branding, a yellow, orange, green and blue stripe.
14:03And I remember this detail, beige laces.
14:07He was wearing jeans, a brown belt, a white shirt, and a slicked-back hairstyle with light brown hair.
14:18I honestly didn't look at his eyes.
14:20And the other one?
14:21I saw the other one much less.
14:24But I think he was the same age too.
14:26But I remember the detail too: jeans, Reno Clark shoes I think, short-sleeved shirt, I don't remember the color.
14:36Lower than the other.
14:38But with that other one the glance was very fleeting, so I didn't give it much weight.
14:49The following evening, the evening of June 22nd, Emanuela's then fourteen year old friend was with the other kids from the
14:56group, here, in front of Castel Sant'Angelo.
14:59Cristina, the youngest of the Orlandi sisters, was also there.
15:03Emanuela, leaving the music school in Piazza Santa Pollinare, was supposed to join them.
15:10He would have had to cross that bridge, a short walk along the Lungotevere.
15:17And here they would make arrangements to go to Luna Park the next morning.
15:21The appointment was around 7.20, 7.30 in the afternoon.
15:25We waited down there until about 8:00.
15:28Then since I'm quite anxious by nature, I said okay guys, let's go the other way, because school
15:35we basically had to cross the bridge and the school was there.
15:388.15, I didn't see anyone.
15:42I was very close to Emanuela as a friend, we got along very well in terms of personality.
15:498.20 I took it, I left, I went to the other side, I took a look, so a look like this,
15:56simply, absolutely nothing.
15:58I went back and said guys, look, Emanuela didn't come out, maybe she held back.
16:04The boys return home and only the next day will they learn that Emanuela has disappeared.
16:10Then after about two or three days, I went up to Emanuela's, there was an official, I think from the Carabinieri,
16:17I asked my father's permission to take me to Selci to make an identikit of this person who
16:25I did.
16:26Of both or just one?
16:27Of both of them, I repeat, I saw one well and the other very well.
16:34Here are the two identikits, they were released at the time.
16:38Today we know that they depict two people who had followed Emanuela only the day before her disappearance.
16:44This one?
16:45This is the boy that Emanuela's friend saw best, the one with the nice shoes, the gels in his
16:51hair.
16:52Under the identikit it says, person related to the disappearance of Emanuela Orlandi.
16:57I returned there later because I had been summoned to see a doctor,
17:05obviously the other person didn't see me logically, to see if that person they had summoned was him,
17:12but it was absolutely not him.
17:14And you don't know who they summoned, obviously they didn't tell you.
17:17No, they didn't tell me.
17:20Then 27 years pass and two years ago Emanuela's friend is summoned to the prosecutor's office.
17:26And now when you went before the magistrate two years ago, did you say exactly the same things?
17:33Exactly, yes, exactly the same things.
17:35Did you check that they were the same?
17:37Yes, yes.
17:38As?
17:39But he still asked me to remember a little of what happened and what was
17:45success.
17:47Generally speaking, they matched the version I had given to the police.
17:53Anyway, when did they call you up two years ago now?
17:56Did you recognize a photo of a person?
17:58Yes.
17:59How many photos did they show you?
18:00But about, I think, about twenty, about twenty photos.
18:04So which photo is it that you recognized?
18:06This.
18:07This?
18:08Yes.
18:08And did they show you photos of him at various ages?
18:11Yes, yes, yes.
18:11Even when he was very young?
18:13Even when he was very young, yes, yes.
18:14And you never had any doubts?
18:15No, no, no, absolutely not.
18:18Absolutely not.
18:19Is that his identikit, that one?
18:21Yes, obviously over time they could then change the physiognomy of the face, in short, obviously time passes.
18:27But I always recognized the subject, in short, which was precisely the one in the photo.
18:33Do you know that this person you recognized is now under investigation?
18:36Ah, I didn't know that.
18:37So, this is one of the people recently investigated, precisely for Emanuela's disappearance.
18:45Probably also based on the recognition you made.
18:50This guy you recognized is called Angelo Cassani, but he's also known as Ciletto.
18:57We have had stories that he was somehow close to the Magliana gang
19:03and even acted as a motorcyclist in particular actions.
19:08This is what other members of the gang told us.
19:14We met Angelo Cassani on the very day he was summoned to the prosecutor's office in Rome,
19:18as he was leaving.
19:20At first he was evasive, then he stopped to talk.
19:24I was charged with the kidnapping and alleged murder of Emanuele Orlandi.
19:33But they didn't ask me questions about the kidnapping, they just challenged me.
19:39I've never seen this girl in my life, nothing at all.
19:44She says, but did you recognize him?
19:46But could he have recognized?
19:47I don't know, they took a picture of him.
19:48Also because I've been in the newspapers a thousand times, it's not like I was in the newspaper yesterday.
19:53Unfortunately, I was accused of the charges, I was published in the newspaper,
19:58with the writing that the bearded man put on it.
20:01She's not going to say that at all.
20:04I have nothing to do with it, I don't know if the Magliana gang has anything to do with it,
20:08but as I deduce, I think other people would have used it.
20:14Unfortunately, one says, how do you do it?
20:16I followed the story, I formed my own opinion, like I think everyone does.
20:21And as a judgment I think there was no reason that...
20:25So, you, a cardinal or whoever you are, would have put yourself in the hands of a criminal,
20:33let's say, of a crooked one?
20:36This is how he put his life in the hands of Repetis.
20:40I don't think it's a normal thing for someone to do.
20:44So you told the magistrate that you know nothing?
20:47I don't know anything, but it's the truth, I feel sorry for the family, I don't know anything.
20:51I don't really know anything.
20:53If I could have helped him, I would have helped him, but I didn't even need to send for him.
20:57officially from the judgment.
20:58I would have gone to talk to them, but just like with them, I'm willing to go and talk to the family too.
21:02I have nothing to do with it.
21:08Well, he says something sensible obviously, I read Angelo Cassani, he says why a cardinal should have put himself in the hands
21:15of a bandit,
21:17De Pedis, he says so, and among other things we know that De Pedis certainly had a very strong relationship
21:24of friendship with Don Vergari,
21:26because Don Vergari and De Pedis met in prison and then later saw each other outside of prison.
21:32What is our source?
21:34Our source is Don Vergari himself, because if you look at his blog there is a document signed by him.
21:39in 2005,
21:41he says how important my experience in the Regina Celi prison was for almost 25 years every Saturday
21:48evening
21:49where I could bring a word of comfort and hope to the detained people.
21:52In prison I never asked anyone why he was there, among the hundreds of people I met from the most diverse backgrounds.
21:59social
21:59we talked about religious things and current events.
22:01Enrico De Pedis came like everyone else and outside of prison we saw each other several times.
22:08Vergari's signature is dated 2005, let's go back 25 years before, so in 1980 already Vergari
22:15he went to visit the prisoners.
22:18As far as we know, De Pedis has been in and out of prison since 1974.
22:28Antonietta, I want to tell you something, also for you, for your case there were two young people who
22:36just 24 hours before,
22:37that is, the day before Mirella and your sister disappeared, they unexpectedly arrive at your bar.
22:43Yes, because the shop was being inaugurated and these two came in.
22:50My mother noticed these two strange guys and at a certain point they pointed with their heads,
22:55they nodded and pointed towards my sister.
22:58That other one had ido and my mother when she saw that asked what they wanted.
23:02They wanted to take pictures, they had cameras, he said look I'm sorry it's a private party, you're bent over
23:07go out.
23:08Then your parents immediately noticed because it was a private party, so they knew everyone except these people.
23:12two.
23:12And then your mother had the identikit done just like Emanuele's friend had the two done
23:17identikit.
23:18So if we can show them there are two identikits that were then made by Antonietta's mother, by Mirella,
23:26Gregori, here they are.
23:27And then the paths cross, they're there, look, unfortunately they put them over there, here they are.
23:34So two young men appear unexpectedly in your bar, who stalk you.
23:39Then I want to tell you another thing, we listened to this friend of Emanuele who was also
23:44brave because he told us not only the things he had told the investigators at the time,
23:49but also what he said now and the recognition he made.
23:52For you, however, I have to say, we and our friends, especially your sister's friend, we can't do it.
23:58speak?
23:59No, she never even managed to contact me, to talk to me honestly, to tell me look, I don't know anything,
24:06You're always bad with investigators, every time I try to encourage her with these television appeals,
24:13if he can say something, at least lead us to the truth, to know something.
24:18Also because she was dating your sister, your sister goes out, they were together almost every day and before she disappeared she was
24:24passed by her.
24:25By the way, it would be interesting to understand from her, as it was a bit for Emanuele's friend,
24:29if for her too there were two young men who were stalking these girls, they had stalked two sisters.
24:35That was the feeling my mother had when she saw those two people that my sister had been
24:39followed by a few days,
24:41Why can't someone just walk in and nod at you if you don't know him?
24:46So, there are these coincidences, 24 hours before both Manuela and Mirella are followed.
24:55By the way, I have to say one thing, that when your paths cross, your relatives become friends in some way,
25:01but anyway they fight together like you two are doing now, the baton has passed to you two,
25:07and then things get mixed up also because in reality the only person under investigation in the affair is an official of the
25:13Vatican State,
25:14which is actually intercepted not for Manuela Orlandi, but is intercepted for your sister because your mother says
25:20I saw him a few times at the bar.
25:22But I was convinced, for her it was him, only that unfortunately they made the comparison after 6-7
25:27years.
25:27And then he didn't recognize him anymore, but the curious thing is that while he was being intercepted for the case
25:32note from Mirella,
25:33he speaking of Manuela Orlandi, has another exponent, we believe of the Vatican we do not know,
25:38who tells him not to tell him anything, he says what should I say about Manuela Orlandi if they call me
25:43investigators,
25:43and he is advised not to say anything.
25:49So our paths cross, even with this one suspect who is then dropped from the case.
25:54Yes, they seem like very parallel stories.
25:56They seem like parallel stories, though, right?
25:58Even the identikits look very similar.
26:01If we can show all four identikits again, if of course it's easy, if it's too complicated, but I hope to
26:08No.
26:08So, and if we can also show the photograph that we had prepared before,
26:13I was talking about the carefree times, the one where Natalina was with her two sisters,
26:17and then there's also, I think, a birthday party, I don't know, because there's a cake and there's
26:21Mirella Gregori's family, in fact.
26:24Here it is, then, this is another photograph.
26:27Who are you?
26:28My sister and I, I'm the taller one and my sister is the younger one.
26:32Ah, here it is.
26:32Holding a little girl.
26:34So, these are the old days, the carefree times.
26:40So, here they are, the four identikits.
26:45And so, they were made, therefore, two by the friend of...
26:51So, these are two identikits and two photographs.
26:54However, today it seems that something is wrong.
26:57However, two identikits were made by Emanuele Orlandi's friend, so we also clarify many things.
27:02And two more, instead, were made by Mirella Gregori's mother.
27:05Anyway, I wanted to say that at this point we can say that the investigations, because they are also denigrating some people on Facebook, the
27:14police investigations are not based solely on a fake phone call made to the person who saw him.
27:19But there are other things underneath, which is why they are also investigating the Magliana gang, the police, the Carabinieri.
27:27I mean, no, but you did well to say it, because that's the problem, but our viewers, I have to say, it
27:31they know.
27:32So, there is this anonymous phone call, which however for the prosecution is no longer anonymous in reality, but there is no
27:37It's just the phone call.
27:39Now we understand, with this truly important testimony, why it is not the Minardi one.
27:44This is different, because for a friend of Emanuele Orlandi this testimony is important, because he recognizes among 20 photographs
27:49a person,
27:50and that person is precisely, Ciletto and Rufetto said that they were De Pedis' men, who for two days
27:58it is no longer in the Basilica of Santa Pollinare.
28:01And I must say that many Catholics had called us and, in short, said they were super excited about this burial.
28:09So, I thank...
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