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00:00Beyond the Tape will be back after these messages.
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02:13Welcome to Beyond the Tape.
02:14I'm your host, Marc Bossan.
02:15And of course, joined today by ACP for the Southwestern and Southern Division, Mr. Wayne
02:22Meister.
02:23I want to welcome you, of course.
02:24Yes, thank you.
02:25And today is World Mental Day, of course, and there are a number of stories happening,
02:30of course.
02:31You know, there's Hurricane Milton in the United States that was rather devastating,
02:35and America is still counting the losses and possible lives that were also lost during
02:41that hurricane there that really smashed into Tampa Bay and moved on onto Orlando.
02:49I know there are a couple of Trinidadians there also living in those areas, and we are
02:54hopeful that they are okay.
02:56I know there were a number of tornadoes as well that touched down there prior to the
03:01hurricane.
03:02And, you know, so I know that President Biden has adjourned or delayed his visit to Germany
03:10to stay because of the impact this hurricane would have on the ground.
03:16So he decided to stay and oversee, you know, rescue operations, et cetera, for his team
03:23there.
03:24Of course, today we're going to be talking about, you know, two very important subject
03:29matters that, you know, has been in the news headlines over the last four to five days.
03:37And Mr. Meister has been in the hot seat, so to speak, been in the area where we had
03:45two things that have been on the front pages and also on the television regarding, you
03:52know, this alleged bullying incident involving Jidan Lalchan, who apparently died by suicide.
03:59And then two days ago, we had a mother and daughter being murdered after it is alleged
04:07that a male relative would have reached the protection order.
04:13Again, welcome, Mr. Meister.
04:15And I know it's been a pretty hectic last couple of days for you and what I've been
04:21trying, I guess, mentally and emotionally.
04:23Yes, definitely.
04:24And again, you know, I want to say condolences to the family of that Jidan, I don't know,
04:32fortunate incident.
04:33And, of course, condolences to the family of the victims, the wife, the lady and her
04:39one-year-old child.
04:40So it has been tough, but the TTPS, that's what we signed up for.
04:45And, I mean, we spoke yesterday, prior to the show, we talked a little bit about, you
04:54know, this whole bullying thing and how it has escalated.
04:59I know you have been speaking to the media about it.
05:03And we talk about the Minister of Education, Gatsby Dolly, speaking about this is becoming
05:10a national issue, this bullying thing, a national issue that, you know, putting all politics
05:16aside, of course, that everybody has to throw in their hat into the ring.
05:21Yes.
05:22But I want to clear something on here.
05:24You know, we're using the word bullying.
05:27So I want to let the members of the public know that the word bullying in itself is not
05:32categorized as an offense, just like how we always use home invasion loosely.
05:37Right.
05:38So what arises out of bullying, which is a word that we took from the Dutch since in
05:431516, actually that word actually meant friend and loved one, you know.
05:47And along centuries, it switched totally to the opposite.
05:52And then now we see now where these instances happen.
05:55So we use the word, but basically what it is is harassment, and it leads towards a series
06:02of different types of offenses.
06:03So, for example, if you're looking at physical bullying, that in itself is violence.
06:08So assault and battery, traditional offenses.
06:10When you look at taxing, there's extortion, and so on, as you go on.
06:14So I just wanted to clear the air on that.
06:16But for the purpose of this talk, we'll use the word bullying.
06:19And as I said before, it leads to the issues of it's a criminal offense.
06:24So then it has been, in terms of a historical context, something that has taken different
06:30forms over the last couple of years, not just in the school, but in workplaces and other
06:36places around the country, and of course, globally as well, yes?
06:40Yes, definitely.
06:41So they're all forms, you know.
06:42So you have recently, you know, somebody spoke about being an office bully.
06:46So it's all, once there's the level of harassment, that will bring distress to someone.
06:52So it could be financial, it could be sexual, it could be psychological, verbal, physical, cyber.
07:00And the dangerous thing about bullying now online is that, okay, years ago when we had
07:05issues of bullying, I will not see the bully till tomorrow in school.
07:09But with cyber bullying, that person can be bullied 24-7, throughout.
07:16So that's the dangerous thing now, having these offenses online.
07:21Is there need, you know, in your humble estimation, for the offenses against the persons to be
07:27in some way amended to kind of include, I guess, when we're dealing with minors, of
07:33course, it will be a little bit different rather than adults.
07:37Do you think there might be some kind of provision you all, I mean, a discussion has to be had
07:43first, of course, but from your expertise as a law enforcement officer.
07:47Yes, definitely.
07:48We have to advocate to bring in some clarity so that it could make a little more impact,
07:55especially with the fines and so on.
07:57Just like how we've seen, we are also advocating for the term home invasion in itself to be
08:03established in our law books with stiffer penalties because you are looking at literally
08:09years ago when someone would break into your home.
08:12They didn't want any confrontation.
08:14They wait till you're asleep.
08:15They wait till they leave your home and they break in.
08:17No, they are doing it forcefully, entering your space and committing heinous crimes.
08:23So I think we need to match those crimes with some stiffer penalties.
08:28Now, Sharon Mangu, the head of the Catholic Education Board of Management, spoke in the
08:35newspaper today and she spoke about that need for social and emotional support of the children
08:42in these schools.
08:43We also have the Minister of Education speaking about, I believe it was a 467% increase in
08:52expulsions, 17 in the last academic year, compared to three the previous year.
08:58I know these are alarming statistics, of course, and what role can the police play in their
09:06part to getting down this to something that is reasonable, if not to zero, in your personal
09:13opinion?
09:14So basically what happens is that we sometimes allow the schools to work on the issue.
09:20The Minister of Education indicated that there's a protocol for bullying.
09:23So usually when there's an issue, the parents will go and report it to the teachers.
09:30And we have many instances where parents were calling, mediation took place, and we got
09:35a win-win situation.
09:36It worked.
09:37Worst case scenario, if those things don't work and the matter is reported to us, then
09:42it reaches the stage where mediation doesn't work anymore and we will have to go according
09:47to the law.
09:48So we'll investigate.
09:49Once there's evidence to charge, persons will be placed before the court as a minor.
09:54As a matter of fact, I did some checking and I have over 140-something children before
10:01the court for this year only, ranging from a lot of offenses, from robbery, larceny,
10:07housebreaking, and I'm talking about children.
10:09What was the ages?
10:11Well, it ranged between 10 to 18.
10:15And the reason why I ask that is that a lot of them are school dropouts that would have
10:21been in the system and maybe they were asked to leave.
10:27There was expulsion in some cases.
10:30I don't know if you were able to break down that statistic.
10:33Yeah, well, not exactly, but I'm glad to bring up that about the expulsion because there's
10:37a drawback to that.
10:38So though we would have used the expulsion method and the person is no longer in the
10:43school environment, then what?
10:46That person is now either on their own because probably their parents, what did the parents
10:51work in?
10:52So there isn't anything in place to deal, or at least to supervise those persons that
10:58are not in school.
10:59Because if you're not in school, then you're doing something else.
11:01So that is the drawback of the whole expulsion and persons coming out of the school system
11:07that we need to have something in place.
11:08We try our best, our policing clubs, we try our best in terms of having what we call homework
11:14letters and those after school activities to just to keep them occupied, but we can't
11:19do it alone.
11:20We need help.
11:21Well, definitely, because as I said, I know that there was a video when you went and you
11:26visited the mother of young Jaden Lalsha, and I think she was very emotional, of course.
11:32Yes.
11:33And she was asking, you know, so many days have elapsed and why you all come to my doorstep
11:37now.
11:38I know it probably would have been a very difficult time for you just more or less to
11:42listen to her rather than say anything at that point in time.
11:45Just to correct her, she wasn't referring to us at all.
11:47Okay.
11:48She was actually referring to the school.
11:49Okay.
11:50But the way it came across, people thought that, you know, they talk about roses.
11:55We didn't send roses to her.
11:56The school sent roses.
11:57Right.
11:58So she was upset that that was sent to her late.
11:59Okay, fair enough.
12:00So that's what I'm trying to get at.
12:01Because the way the shot was captured, and then you saw there were two other female police
12:06officers, I believe, there as well, that, you know, it gave that impression.
12:10So thanks for clearing that up for us.
12:11You took some blows, some unnecessary blows.
12:13Yes, of course, of course.
12:14So I know we're going to be talking about something a little later in the program, which
12:18you're going to be revealing.
12:20But let's take a look at our headlines now.
12:40Okay.
13:10So those are some of the headlines.
13:37Of course, there is a video that was captured just about two nights ago, involving the murder
13:44of Danish Lal, a 46-year-old taxi driver that went to a mini-mart.
13:51And apparently, while he was walking into the mini-mart, a gunman came behind and shot
14:01him.
14:02And we just take a look here.
14:03Now we will see that unfolding there.
14:07A car pulls up.
14:09An armed gentleman, I believe, comes out of the vehicle.
14:13There's a guy standing there.
14:15And he walks in there.
14:18And I think this is when somebody, he's actually walking there, and the guy continues to shoot
14:24him.
14:26And I mean, clearly, it looks like something that was planned, and it looks like a supposed
14:32hit.
14:37You will be able to, I mean, talking to your colleagues, any ideas there, the motive yet
14:42for Mr. Lal's killing at all?
14:46We haven't established a motive as yet, but based on the information, we are asking members
14:52of the public.
14:54Somebody knows something.
14:56And we have established some hotlines to, if you see something, say something.
15:02So if anyone with information about this particular incident, please call us.
15:06I actually have a number, 486-9999.
15:11That is a particular number that I use for the, basically, South Central, but I get calls
15:15from all over Trinidad and Tobago.
15:16So you want to talk to someone, senior, probably they want to go to the station, call us.
15:23With those information, we're going to auction it.
15:25Okay, wonderful.
15:27Now this is something that's just been circulating quite recently on social media.
15:33It's allegedly two police officers, apparently, that seemed to have squared off after leaving
15:40their firearms in the vehicle.
15:43And I understand there was an exchange of, you know, blows.
15:48Luckily, nobody used any firearms against one another.
15:51But I know it's under investigation.
15:53I don't know how much of it you know and where it might have occurred, which division.
15:57I think that is still unclear.
16:00But we hear the officer, one of the officers at the back, sitting on the back of the vehicle,
16:05talking about the firearms on both sides and he's not touching them, et cetera, et cetera.
16:11Well, you know, I want to say, I want to first apologize to Trinidad and Tobago.
16:16And I'll tell you why.
16:17Because, you know, we as law enforcement officers, we took an oath to operate in a particular way.
16:23And on several occasions, we, and sometimes when we, you know, in local parlance, we have to take our blows.
16:31And this is, you know, I don't want to pronounce any judgment, an investigation is going on,
16:35but it's something that we don't stand for.
16:38You know, we really want officers to operate according to their oath.
16:44The public is dependent on us.
16:46After us, there's nobody else.
16:48We are the last.
16:49We are the vanguards.
16:50So, I'm making a call to all police officers, let us, let us continue to build our trust
16:56and let us stay away from things that will distract us.
17:01All right.
17:02On that note, we're going to take a short break and we'll be back.
17:05Stay with us.
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18:30I can't believe it.
18:33I can't believe it.
19:01Welcome back to Beyond the Tape, I'm your host Marc Besson,
19:04and of course joined today by ACP, Mr. Wayne Meister of the Southern and Southwestern Divisions,
19:10and we are continuing our discussion on two important subject matters,
19:16bullying and of course protection orders as it relates to domestic violence.
19:21And we just got a photo, just a short while ago,
19:26a producer posted a photo here, of course with the children's faces,
19:33and it clearly shows some type of bullying happening here.
19:39Mr. Meister, I don't know if you want to walk us through a bit.
19:42Yeah, definitely.
19:44You know, it's like every school is trying to outdo one another.
19:49And I'm saying that we want to hold the parents, you know,
19:56they have to take some serious responsibility,
20:00because I can't understand as a parent, you may see your child in a video,
20:04involved in something like this, and nothing is being done.
20:07And then at the end of the day, you know, we expect the teachers, we expect the police to do certain things,
20:12and you know, that is unfair.
20:14Parents need to take responsibility.
20:18We will do our part, the teachers will do their part,
20:21but I can't say it any louder, parents must take responsibility.
20:25And it's a critical point you raised there,
20:27because I remember listening to a gentleman two days ago on the radio,
20:31and what he was saying was that he told his son,
20:35that if I ever see you in a video, if there's a fight that breaks out,
20:40if you're even standing behind the fight, egging on the students,
20:46I will cut you too.
20:48Right? It's as simple as that.
20:50The father sent that clear message.
20:52If something is happening, go and get help,
20:54or get as far as you can from that incident.
20:58And of course, try to get help.
21:01Well, it's funny you mention that, because in this booklet here,
21:04which we already have, our booklet for the anti-bullying campaign,
21:08and it states on the first page, bullying involves three persons,
21:13the victim, the bully, and the bystander.
21:17Right? The bystander.
21:18So just the way you mentioned it,
21:19so those persons who are standing by and cheering on,
21:23you know, there's something called aiding and abetting in our law books,
21:27and we can literally push the envelope and push the buttons,
21:31pull the levers, and really, you know,
21:35I know that in recent times, Deputy Commissioner Benjamin
21:39lost Operation Film Fist.
21:41That's the latest operation, right?
21:43If we are to go by that name,
21:45and we sort of take these things by the letter of the law,
21:48a lot of persons will have problems,
21:49and then you'll hear parents talking in a particular manner.
21:52So parents, we are depending on you.
21:55We definitely want to encourage our callers to call us at 623-1711,
21:59extensions 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1997.
22:05Now, you talk about bystanders,
22:08and it seems that just not in the aspect of bullying, of course,
22:12but we have incidents where there is somebody being shot,
22:16lying on the ground, et cetera, et cetera,
22:19and the first instinct for most would be to pull their phones out
22:23rather than get help for a person that is injured in an accident or shot
22:28or being beaten or trying to part the fight.
22:31Long time ago, that was what people would want to do in most cases, right?
22:36But now your first instinct is to pull out your phone
22:39and capture this moment,
22:41and you can put it up and get how many views?
22:44That is where we have degenerated to,
22:47and it is so sad.
22:49You know, sometimes we have that person who is lying there,
22:53they have families, and they have families watching that.
22:56And sometimes the first thing you might see,
22:58probably your son or your daughter is on social media,
23:00and you have no idea what is taking place.
23:02And everyone is capitalizing, as you said, on social media,
23:06likes for views and so on.
23:08We need to do better than that here in Tobago, definitely.
23:10And I think that, I mean, parents, you guys are listening out there,
23:15and you really need to take heed.
23:17Find out from your children.
23:18Speak to them.
23:19Communicate with them every single day.
23:22Find out how their day was in school.
23:24Find out if there is anything that is pressing.
23:26Even find out, talk to the teachers as much as possible on a daily basis
23:30so that you don't end up in a situation where things start to fester
23:36and they escalate,
23:38and then something happens that we really don't want to have to report
23:43or it makes no use.
23:45Definitely.
23:48One of these days, I mean, I don't want it to happen,
23:51but these fights, you see the viciousness of these fights,
23:54these school fights.
23:55You see people falling in drains and so on.
23:57Somebody is going to get hurt very badly.
24:00And so just like how we had that awareness, you know,
24:03sad to say again, the suicide of Jaden, that brought a lot of awareness.
24:08But we don't want awareness to be brought out.
24:10I mean, we are the TTPs.
24:12We are educating persons quite on a regular basis
24:15of how to go about operating within the law,
24:19how to go about making yourself a hard target and so on.
24:21So we need the public to support us in that sense.
24:23We are not asking the public to put on a uniform,
24:26to go in the trenches and look for criminals.
24:28That is our job.
24:29We'll do that.
24:30But we want you to make yourself a hard target.
24:32Parents, we want you to, as I said, speak to your children,
24:34educate them, keep them out of trouble.
24:37All right.
24:38Thanks for that advice there.
24:40We do have a caller on the line.
24:42Caller, good afternoon.
24:44Yes, good afternoon.
24:45I believe the revolutionizing of television, cameras, likes,
24:59and all the social media fanfare is what drives persons to,
25:05instead of seeking help, of course, pulling all the pulls
25:10and wanting to be the first bearer of any such type of news, of course.
25:16I want to ask specifically, Mr. Maista,
25:20do you feel, as a police officer,
25:23are you of the feeling that agencies in national security
25:28are failing children in Tobago?
25:31I say that to mean that the police, obviously,
25:36we do manufacture guns, arms and ammunition here,
25:39and it's almost as though we are cycling arms and ammunition
25:43off the street, onto the street, and it just keeps flowing.
25:47Are you of the strong view and opinion that other agencies
25:51that are tasked with the responsibility of protecting the nation's borders,
25:55the Coast Guard, the Air Guard,
25:57are you of the belief that these agencies are not pulling the weight,
26:03allowing the strain, if it was, to be felt by the children of policemen?
26:11The strain, if it was.
26:15I want to tell Alcola, we are not going to bury our heads in the sand.
26:20We have challenges, and what I want to say is that
26:23every agency has a responsibility.
26:26The Coast Guard has a responsibility,
26:28the seas, customs have a responsibility,
26:31immigration have a responsibility, prison service, TTPS.
26:36All I'm saying is that every agency needs to stand up
26:42and own their responsibility, and once they do that
26:45and we collaborate, we shall fix this problem.
26:48Most definitely, and I know that before we take the break,
26:52I know we're going to be revealing something to the public a little later
26:56in the show, but definitely we want to encourage
27:00parents, teachers, and students to kind of be each other's keepers
27:06in a time like this, and we are hopeful that
27:10those that are looking on and listening and reading all the literature out there
27:15and looking at television shows to get ideas how to, I guess,
27:20improve their socializing and to also be their brother's keeper, so to speak,
27:26especially in school.
27:29Correct.
27:30You know?
27:31So, we're going to take a short break and we'll be back after this.
27:34Stay with us.
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