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00:00Parents, strongly caution, this program contains some material that is unsuitable for young
00:15children.
00:45Beyond the tape, we'll be back after these messages.
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01:41It's Calypso History Month, come and enjoy Crackers and Cheese 7, the Kaiso Audacity
01:47on Saturday, 12th October, 7pm at the Central Bank Auditorium, featuring 2018 NWAC Calypso
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02:21Media.
02:36Welcome to Beyond the Tape, I'm your host Marc Bessant, of course joined today by Corporal
02:40Zaheer Ali for Legally Speaking Wednesdays.
02:44We are definitely keeping an eye on Milton, that is approaching Florida of course.
02:50Very rough weather there, looking at some of the images online, and I know that we had
02:54some rain today, nothing what is expected that residents in Florida is going to face
03:00later tonight into tomorrow.
03:02It's a really damaging system, already showing signs of a number of tornadoes touching down
03:08in places like Fort Myers and so on.
03:11I know some Trinidadians who were actually in Tampa Bay that moved closer inland to Orlando
03:19and even that area is also expected to be hit with a bunch of Milton in the coming hours.
03:28So we also have an update on the body that was found off the precipice in Mover about
03:3524 hours ago, we understand that the relatives of Derek Cooper today identified that it was
03:44in fact Mr. Cooper who was actually abducted on October 1st.
03:49And of course today we do have with us Corporal Zaheer Ali from the Trinidad and Tobago Police
03:56Service, legally speaking Wednesdays, welcome sir.
04:00Well, good evening to you Mark, again it's a pleasure to share this platform with you.
04:05Good evening to Trinidad and Tobago, family on beyond the tape, and even persons who are
04:11visiting or viewing this particular program from wherever you may be.
04:17You know I just want to share with you, I don't want to use the word wishing, but asking
04:22the persons in the United States of America and the Florida area and its environs to heed
04:27the warning and direction of the authorities.
04:30I know they have been calling for persons to evacuate particular areas and with a category
04:35storm that was listed at five, I think it's now about three, it's still very dangerous
04:41and for citizens of Trinidad and Tobago, residents I should say, who may be on that side, just
04:47exercise caution.
04:49But Mark, over the last couple of days we have seen headlines with, if not domestic
04:57issues, we have seen also issues affecting our youths and let me take this opportunity
05:03immediately to express my condolences to the families, not to isolate anyone because we
05:13have had a number of unfortunate situations, so let me express my condolences to all the
05:18families who may have experienced the loss of loved ones and to urge you to continue
05:25to pray and be patient during this time and also to balance it, I'm asking the authorities
05:32kindly to ensure that you are dedicating the necessary attention to the particular instances
05:39to ensure that at least we bring some justice to these persons who are in urgent need of
05:44justice.
05:45I definitely have brought up two frontal issues right now, that is domestic violence and bullying
05:52and I do recall the Minister of National Security, in reference to the domestic violence incident,
05:58very unfortunate, a mother and baby were killed yesterday in the Barakpo area, Sarah Ramsaroop
06:04and her daughter Jada.
06:06The Minister of National Security said last night, well yesterday, late yesterday, that
06:12we are aiming and hoping, not yet the case, that every single report of domestic violence
06:17is responded to, attended to by elements of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Unit.
06:22Up till last weekend, he said there was a report of a case that was not attended to
06:26and that is a matter we are looking into but we need to do that because domestic violence
06:31is a subset of violence and all violence is important to us in the Ministry of National
06:37Security.
06:39Well again, Mark, very decisive statements on the part of the National Security Minister
06:44when in terms of clearly signalling, not distinguishing between the so-called violence that we have
06:52been exposed to but also a signal in where, even from a domestic context, still equating
06:58it with the issue of violence and very urgent need to make that intervention and I want
07:06to agree with him because there was a judgment recently and we all are aware of the judgment
07:09and the symposiums where the Honorable Justice Robin Mohamed delivered a very groundbreaking
07:16judgment where it clearly established the responsibility of the state and while we may
07:20be talking about the TTPS, Mark, that judgment also directed attention to the judiciary of
07:26Trinidad and Tobago and in this case the magistrate's court so that at least two of the public institutions
07:32must appreciate, based on that judgment, the responsibility to intervene, to take the
07:37necessary steps that are required in order to protect persons who may be exposed to domestic
07:41violence and domestic violence, you know, it has been defined whether it be any form
07:46of psychological, emotional, financial, sexual and what have you.
07:52But that judgment has spoken, it is very instructive but I'd like to just take a little angle to
07:57this, Mark.
07:58I think it's important.
07:59Mark, you know, looking at our culture and our tradition as a society and this is, you
08:06know, I'm acknowledging that the state have a responsibility but I think sometimes we
08:09need to revisit the basics and I'm saying this where when you are engaged in a relationship
08:14or maybe you get married to someone, you know, there was the belief and understanding that
08:21when you embrace someone, you embrace not only that person but their family when you
08:25are joining in marriage and I would like to take this opportunity to signal to Trinidad
08:30and Tobago that when two persons come together to share a relationship, whether it be they
08:37are married or whether they show in a common law and that sort of thing, my question is
08:41where are the families of these individuals to be able to assist?
08:45You know, when you're getting married, you have a hundred, a thousand persons present
08:49to witness that marriage, including the family members from both sides.
08:53So I think it's important for the family members to recognize the importance in relation
08:59to when you are seeing subtle signs of abuse.
09:03Let us intervene maturely.
09:05Let us intervene and see if we can lend some assistance because it may mean sometimes that
09:08two persons, Mark, is crying out for help, domestic violence, they are crying out for
09:13assistance and we must be sensitive enough and we meaning the parties, the families from
09:18both sides must be sensitive and finally, what I found as well, and this is just from
09:23my respectful understanding, you see third parties when we are speaking about domestic
09:28violence, third parties ought to be very careful at the same time in terms of what they say
09:33and what they contribute because that could just mean the tipping balance when a domestic
09:39situation is concerned.
09:40So I'm asking Trinidad and Tobago, if we have to intervene in a situation that we know that
09:44there's a level of confusion, a level of dispute, let us, if we are intervening, let
09:51us intervene in a mature way that get towards resolving the situation and not aggravating
09:57the situation.
09:58So Mark, I thought it was important to take it from that angle.
10:00I don't want to classify it as a social or family context, but to support the requirement
10:06or the obligation on the state, the families of those two individuals or families of persons
10:11who are involved in a relationship.
10:13Let us understand that when they get married, that's not the end of us looking and trying
10:17to support, especially when there may be children involved.
10:20So I thought it was important to take that slide.
10:21And that's a very valid point you bring to the fore because I was having a discussion
10:26just before the issue, trying to get an update, of course, when this particular case, and
10:32I recall speaking to my colleague, Suzanne Mohammed, and she was telling me that there
10:36are obviously a lot of rumors going around, people are saying things, because I know that
10:40Tara had two children, a one-year-old and a four-year-old, with the suspect, and she
10:46had a previous relationship with somebody where she had two elder children who were
10:52I think 8 and 15 years of age.
10:55And it was being said that she was apparently in another relationship, and I don't know
11:00what transpired with somebody now, presently, and as you said, but her sister apparently
11:09would have spoken to our colleagues at the Express and TV6 this afternoon to clarify
11:16some of what was being said by another relative, as you say, third-party information, as well
11:21as you have to treat it very carefully because you never know.
11:26But we will definitely delve into that a little more as we go along on the programme today.
11:31And Mark, may I just share one more thing in relation to the emphasis of third parties,
11:34and I'll just use the example of the media, you know, from an investigative context.
11:39You know, information will come to hand, and if you're not investigating it, if you're
11:42not checking it, you can easily be running with a particular narrative that can either
11:48be very, what, destructive, or it may create a situation where you attract things, you
11:54know, upon yourself.
11:55So, again, responsible expressions and comments, and understanding that when we are speaking
12:02domestic violence, while we are not seeing domestic violence defined as a murder, understand
12:09that the different forms of abuse naturally can land you into murder.
12:13It's a very, very, very thin line in relation to when you are speaking about domestic violence.
12:17So we need to be sensitive, we need to be responsible, we need to be mature, but at
12:22the same time, I'm asking, as I said, and I want to hammer this point because I do feel
12:25respectfully, that families of individuals are really getting involved and trying to
12:30assist in resolving an issue, and hoping that the two persons will work it out in an acceptable
12:37manner, and sometimes it doesn't work out like that.
12:40Yeah, and as I said, everything is, there's all these things that you and I would not
12:44know about.
12:45That's correct.
12:46There's a lot of sensitivity that exists in a particular relationship, and one party might
12:52be privy to some of the information and the other, but we have to find out, really find
12:56out the entire picture, because, you know, we will be hearing one thing from one side
13:01and one from something else, but sometimes you have to, like, it's like putting a puzzle
13:05together.
13:06That's correct.
13:07That's correct.
13:08So, obviously, there are a couple of things I want to talk about in relation to what our
13:11sister said, but we will hold on that until a little later, but we'll go to our headlines
13:16now.
14:17Some interesting headlines there.
14:32Of course, one of them is the body that was found in Mova was apparently identified this
14:41morning by the relatives of Derek Cooper, who's on screen now.
14:48Apparently, he was abducted on October 1st.
14:51He went to the licensing authority to transfer a vehicle with another gentleman and was leaving
14:56there.
14:57He's supposedly a well-known moneylender, has over 100 cars on the road employing people
15:03and so on, and, of course, the police are saying that they still have to do DNA testing
15:08before they can verify, but the relatives seem pretty convinced based on the clothing
15:14that he was wearing that it was him, and he would have obviously been accosted by some
15:20men dressed in, well, I guess fake police officers with tactical uniform and so on.
15:25They would have stopped and blocked the car that was parked while the other gentleman
15:30went out to get coconut water, and they tried to take him, and, of course, he resisted.
15:37He was shot at least three times, I understand, twice in his stomach, once in the leg, and
15:42then he was taken away, and then, I guess, this is the end result of that abduction.
15:49Well, again, Mark, it's unfortunate and condolences to the family, but just looking at the attributes
15:55that you have directed at that individual in terms of him being in the area of lending
16:02monies and also having numerous vehicles on the road, definitely, it's something that
16:09we need to consider when we are looking at some, maybe, why that may have been an intended target,
16:13but, again, when we get confirmation with reference to the entire circumstances,
16:19I know it'd be subject to an expeditious inquiry, so I'll reserve further comments on it,
16:24but, again, just unfortunate that we are seeing these things continue to plague our society,
16:32where crime, violent crime, that is, and murders, if it's classified as such.
16:37Just going to go back to the Trinidad Express picture there, the mom and baby that was slaughtered,
16:44of course, in Barakpur yesterday.
16:49Apparently, the police now has a suspect in custody, and I think it's a really sad situation,
16:55as we would have spoken about, and I think the Minister Ayanna Webster-Roy of Gender and Child Affairs
17:02would have summed it up in a way saying that we have a collective responsibility as a society
17:08to ensure that our families and communities are places of safety, and we have the power to prevent
17:14such tragedies, as we strive to raise awareness of the needs of the most vulnerable in our society.
17:21Well, you know, Mark, when you've seen, when we're speaking about, again, like how, you know,
17:25when we look at crime, you know, a societal approach, you know, that is excellent, but I think what is
17:31important now, and you know, to go back to the issue of the state agencies that have very important
17:37responsibility, and I mentioned two a while ago in terms of TTPS and the judiciary, in particular,
17:43who plays major roles, so what you one will be looking at is that when persons are making reports,
17:49you know, and speaking from a TTPS context, it is important for the TTPS officers to treat those
17:55reports seriously, and I want to stress that. I want you, I want us to appreciate that when someone
18:01is reporting the domestic violence or the potential for, think in your mind that if I do not treat
18:08with this, my station district, my division, the TTPS, the country, can be looking at or steering
18:16another mother, or who knows, maybe multiple, because we have seen this particular situation
18:22where the mother and the child, so I'm just saying in the context where for the TTPS, understand that
18:27you have an important role to play in relation to responding to these issues, and I don't want to
18:32get into the Domestic Violence Act, Mark, but the Domestic Violence Act affords the police exclusive
18:39powers to be able to, by way of example, that if you are aware of a domestic violence situation
18:45unfolding, that you have the power to enter house to be able to preserve the peace, and where children
18:52is concerned or are concerned, you'll be able to take the next very step, so the law already gives
18:56you some teeth in relation to act, and you know, I know that when I go to this other point in terms
19:01of protection order, it may be a sore point because we have heard some stories coming out where there
19:05may have been protection order issued, but not served on the individual, that is your protection
19:11order as well. I'd like to say something this afternoon, reference it up, and say something in
19:16the context where for too long we have protected, or I should say we have looked at protection order
19:23something that should be like suppressed. If we are saying that someone is, a protection order is
19:29issued to someone who it is looking to prevent a violent attack, or further domestic violence,
19:37why are we suppressing the existence of a protection order? In my view, that should be
19:43something that should even be known to the community. And cooperatively, you see that
19:48that issue, is it? Let's talk about it a little more. Sure. After this break. Sure.
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21:29Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host, Marcus, and of course, joined by Corporal Zahir
21:33of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service. Today is Legally Speaking Wednesdays,
21:37and we want to encourage our callers. 623-1711 extensions 1992, 1993, 1996, and 1997. Speaking
21:47of callers, I do believe you have one in line. Sure. Caller, good afternoon.
21:52Good afternoon, gentlemen. Hello? Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Yes, good afternoon. Good
21:58afternoon, gentlemen. Corporal Ali, I love the fact that you stand on integrity. I really admire
22:03the way you address issues. I just have two contributions to make this evening.
22:07The first contribution I would like to make this evening is about the bullying. Bullying has become
22:12a major issue among our children, but in a society where there is bullying, name-calling,
22:19fact-shaming, verbal abuse based on words and tone coming from the higher ups, such as our
22:26political leaders and adults, we wonder why it's trickling down to our children.
22:33That's the first contribution. The second contribution, my final contribution, it truly
22:38hurts my heart. How many more of our children have to die because of gun violence or domestic
22:44violence? The issue of domestic violence, especially when it involves taking a life,
22:50is truly disturbing and sad. It is truly shocking also, Corporal Ali, to hear that
22:56law enforcement officers are involved in domestic violence complaints. They have so much festering
23:02within the agency. But my question to you, Corporal Ali, do you think that this is a
23:07contributing factor as to why reports made by the public are not being taken or handled seriously?
23:13Because how can they handle it seriously when you're living in a glass house? You should not
23:18throw stones. I believe that the entire force needs to be trained continuously on domestic
23:27violence and customer service. And if an officer is found guilty of not doing a proper report,
23:34they should be retrained and retrained until something sticks. My question also,
23:42these, I'm sorry, just the child that passed away, it's really disheartening.
23:47I believe it should be mandatory. If they go to a location and the parent doesn't want to,
23:53I'm sorry, and the person doesn't want to make the complaint, like the woman changes
24:00her mind or the other party changes their mind, I think it should be mandatory to send them to
24:04some kind of counseling. I believe this should be done not just for the benefit of the parents,
24:09but more so for the children. Mothers, I want to plead with you tonight. Please stop using your
24:14children as bulletproof vests. They may not survive. We as a society should not continue
24:22to sit back and just allow evil. The word evil backwards spells live. How can we continue to not
24:31stand up and live in a society like this, to the abusers? When you add D to the end of the word
24:40you get devil backwards. When you die, do you want to be known as someone who chose to live a life
24:49of evil for the devil? I ask you to choose God. And to Trinidad and Tobago, I would like to leave
24:55you with one final message. He that turns a blind eye to wrong and to evil, that he becomes an
25:02accomplice to it. We need to do better. We need to do better for our children, for our nation.
25:07We need to do better. Thank you, gentlemen. Do you think that this is because the police officers,
25:15it's going on within them. So if it's going on and they're covering up for their colleagues,
25:20then how do they go out there and take a proper report? Thank you, gentlemen.
25:25Mark, just to respond to that call, let me tell you immediately, thank you very much for your
25:31submission. Mark, you can listen to the passion in that voice. Definitely. And some very significant
25:35issues. And, you know, she spoke both from a domestic context and she spoke about the bullying,
25:39which I will want to, you know, with your leave for us to just put a little focus in it as well.
25:44But again, she was basically on the point that we were making that when I was actually calling
25:48out the law enforcement and TORSEC extended judiciary to appreciate the responsibility
25:54that resides with the institutions, every single police officer or every single judicial officer
25:59who comes into contact. Because I want to repeat, you do not look at it as a domestic violence
26:04theory that if you do not intervene, if you do not treat with it, you can be recording a murder
26:10or multiple murders as the case may be, or very serious injuries under the Offences Against
26:15the Persons Act. So again, I want to, you know, share the platform by indicating that we have a,
26:22we have taken an oath, we have a legal duty and obligation, the Domestic Violence Act has placed
26:28a responsibility on police officers who are aware that there's a domestic situation, the judiciary,
26:33where persons are making application protection orders, please consider it carefully so that you
26:39can now give the proper orders or impose the proper conditions with reference to protection
26:43orders. And I was making a point Mark quickly, that I do not think, you know what I mean,
26:47looking at the development of this particular area. Yes, we had symposium. Yes, we are looking
26:52at the reform of the law. But in my respectful view, I think that protection order, let us look
26:56at the whole principle behind it. It is issued for the protection of an individual, and in most
27:01instances, trying to prevent what? That physical contact with individuals, and also
27:07psychological and otherwise. But we're looking at the physical, which is the more serious, right?
27:11How can we say that a person who a protection order is issued to? That in addition to the police
27:16station, what about the community that this, the victim may be in? Do we not want to be in a
27:23position to know that, okay, the community needs to know, listen, there's a protection order against X,
27:28that is issued to X in order to protect Y, so that the community eyes and ears can be around to
27:34say, okay, look, we've seen X in the community, which should not be within 100 meters of the
27:38individual, a person that should not be coming by the person's house. So you are not, the protection
27:43order is getting an opportunity to bring the society on board to assist the process. Let me
27:47bring bring you full circle based on the report. Yes, that we would have read on the express here.
27:52It said that she made numerous reports to the police. Yes. And there were actually four
27:57protection orders in the station, but they were never served. My question then is,
28:04is the police officers in this particular station now liable for failing to act on these protection
28:12orders? Because you never went and you deliver this protection order, although it was existent,
28:17it wasn't executed. Well, again, Mark, a brilliant question on behalf of the public's interest here.
28:22And when you ask such a piercing question, while I would love to be the one telling you, listen,
28:27the minimum will be disciplinary proceedings, if not serious misbehavior in public office.
28:34What I want to say to balance the scale is that an immediate, if it's not already happening,
28:39an immediate investigation should be launched to determine whether in fact these officers,
28:44that particular station, they were aware that a protection order was issued by the courts of
28:49Trinidad and Tobago, that there was very serious allegations being made that would have led to the
28:55issuing of the protection order and determine whether in fact it's a blatant neglect of duty,
29:01or even I will even take it for a misbehavior in public office. So yes, I want to agree with you
29:06that if we really want to send that message, if we want to really ensure that police officers,
29:11and by extension, any stakeholder who has a role to play in reference to this particular issue,
29:16we need to start holding this person responsible. And I read that, you know, the director of the
29:22Police Complaints Authority, Mr. West, and you know if he's listening, director, I think you as
29:27well have a very important responsibility when you are looking at holding police officers and
29:31the TTPs accountable with reference to this issue of domestic violence. So it has to be a societal
29:37approach for accountability, for transparency, and Mark, the media as well has some very important
29:44role to play. If you are hearing about these things, in my respective view, you need to continue
29:49to probe these matters to ensure that those who are responsible or who may have fallen neglect
29:54is brought to justice by reference to these matters. Most definitely. It's getting a little
29:58bit hot in here, but let's cool it down with a break and we'll be back.
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31:24So
31:40welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host Marcus and of course joined today
31:44by Corporal Zaheer Ali for Legally Speaking Wednesdays. And I do believe this subject
31:52matter has really gotten a little bit hot that we actually have another call on the line.
31:57Caller, good afternoon. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Hi, I'm calling from Faizabad.
32:09Yes, go ahead. I just called in to make a complaint about the Faizabad Police Station.
32:15Right. Hello, caller. The Faizabad Police Station, right? Yes. However, I don't know why the Faizabad
32:32Police Station doesn't do their work, right? Why am I saying this? Because I went on vacation
32:38recently to Tobago, actually. And bandits came into our home, right? My mom's home.
32:47It was a family home. And we called. We actually see the bandits entering our home and stealing
32:53items from the home. We contacted the Faizabad Police Station. And the Faizabad Police Station
33:01is like just a minute away from which part we live, right? And while we were on the call with
33:07the Faizabad Police Station, we're telling them, look, the bandits, they're stealing things. Why
33:11don't you all hurry and go to the home and so forth? They would like to tell us they have no
33:15vehicles and there's nothing that they can do, right? They're saying that's how they have to
33:21share vehicles with the South Oropuch Police Station, right? So what's really going on?
33:28Because even though we call in the police, there's no one to check us. You understand? So I want to
33:36find out what really the Faizabad Police Station has been doing. Because anytime you go to make a
33:41complaint to them, they're making a book. They're lying in. They have nobody. And you say when you
33:47go to the station, the station's locked. You understand? There's nobody that could even
33:53help you. And then anything we tell them, we need some patrols in the avenue, right? Help us out.
33:59Because the bandits came. And this is the third time the bandits came in Spanish. This is the
34:05third time they came to our home, right? And not our only home alone, to other neighbors as well.
34:10And calling the Faizabad Station, which is a minute away from us, right? They're not coming
34:16to our rescue. Imagine them telling us to do what we could do. So how are we protected
34:24in this country? How are we protected and they are to protect and serve us when they don't have
34:29vehicles in the Faizabad Station, saying they have to share vehicles with South Orokuch Police
34:35Station. You understand? So please, please, could you all look into these police stations,
34:43these police services and see what they could do to help us. We are frightened for our lives.
34:49It is dangerous in this place, right? And it's becoming more and more worse that these Spanish,
34:56not only Spanish, some of them could be locals too. Well, locals I should say, not could be,
35:00locals I should say too as well. But the ones that broke into our home is the Spanish,
35:04because when we make the reports to them, no one will even come back to look at us.
35:10Let me just interject for one minute, please, Mark. May I just advise you, if you so desire,
35:17because of what you're expressing, just leave a number and I'll try and make an intervention to
35:21see exactly what sort of redress that you can get, because that's a very serious matter that you are
35:25identifying and I do not want to be on this platform and have you speak like that and not
35:30make an intervention. So kindly, if you desire, leave a number and we will try and treat you to
35:34that. If not, based on what you have said, I will ensure that I engage the necessary
35:39senior officers to look into that particular matter and in particular the FISA by Police Station.
35:47All right. Okay. It seems that, I mean, it doesn't only happen in that area, but there have also been
35:54perennial complaints in other areas where I remember a gentleman calling a couple of weeks
35:59ago saying there was a robbery at his place, there was a home invasion apparently at about
36:05three or four in the morning and he called the police and they had no vehicle and then they
36:11called him back at around, I believe it was near Rima district, they called him back around 8am to
36:16say he still wanted us to come. I mean, it's unacceptable because people's lives are risky
36:24and so on. I mean, it's really unfortunate and we are hopeful that these kinds of problems can
36:31be alleviated because, you know, it can mean the difference between life and death. Yeah, and Mark,
36:39you know, when I listen to these calls and, you know, I'm not, you know, taking it as, you know,
36:43you know, that it's conclusive because obviously these things will require an inquiry to find out
36:47whether in fact the police, of course, did or whether they took steps and hence why I'm looking
36:50to engage the caller. But it's important again, you know, to emphasize my brothers and sisters
36:54in the police service, when you are a society's faced with this level of crime and criminality,
37:00as a TTPS, we are in a very sensitive and a very place in a very important position. And,
37:07you know, when we talk about, you know, to protect and serve with pride, that professionalism,
37:11that respect, that integrity, that dignity, and that excellence, you know, let us be a part,
37:16let it be a part of you, let it sink deep into you to understand that if you were to be in that
37:20situation, what sort of response would you want or what sort of response would you want your family
37:25and even if we are saying, Mark, that there may be a shortage of resources, whether a human,
37:29whether it be, you know, other resources, we are Trinidad and Tobago Police Service and not a
37:35Faisalabad police station. These stations are within divisions, they are within the national
37:39context. So I'm saying that, you know, effective supervision and these matters are also important
37:44that who knows, you know, I'm, you know, I know the executive probably looking at it,
37:48but maybe we may have to review the role and functions for each particular rank to ensure
37:54that the citizen of this country is getting the level of response that they require, you know. So
37:59again, caller, if you are listening off air, you know, I'll make some calls, I'll make some
38:05intervention with reference to that matter. Mark, I just wanted to just hold that short.
38:09We actually have another call. Caller, good afternoon. Sorry to keep you waiting.
38:13Good afternoon, Mr Basant, Mr Ali. Good evening, sir. All right, listening to your topic this
38:20evening with the protection orders, which is a very interesting topic and what are the problems
38:32that officers face when these documents come out that the public isn't aware of?
38:39All right, the vague addresses that has been given. Let's say, for example, Eleanor Street,
38:45Chagonas, that's a very long street. Or you say John Peter Road, Chagonas, that's a very long road.
38:52All right, and the police over there can't go from every house
38:56asking for a certain name. And then also, if they get an address, you go to the house,
39:04you ask, the person is not home. Remember, it's not a warrant, it's a document of sale,
39:09that's someone's. If no relative is willing to accept the document on behalf of the individual,
39:15they can't leave it. If you meet the individual and the individual is there and doesn't want to
39:20take it, they can throw it at his feet. That is proper service. All right, just to think that
39:27four documents were issued for the, on behalf of the young lady. All right, I can't say yes,
39:34I can't say no, I'm not part of that. But all things considered, the police is not there to
39:40take blame for that. There could be a lot of factors that factor for the non-service of
39:48that document. The person is not home, as I said before. Nobody willing to accept it,
39:53vague address. Even the person ducking service because they know they're doing a shipping this
39:58and document is coming. But there's a lot of things that factor the situation that before
40:05we cast our suspicions, I'm not going to blame the police, I'm not going to blame this one,
40:08I blame that one. It's a sad outcome. It's a very sad and stupid outcome that came out of this.
40:13All right, it's a loss of a life, two lives, two important lives that could never come back.
40:20But there's a lot of things that, as I said, factor
40:23as to go forward in the relations of work with this. So there's a lot of things to take into mind.
40:31Kola, thanks for your contribution and Kupral Ali, I'm sure you want to add something.
40:35Yeah, of course, and you know, again, I will respect, you know, the different perspective,
40:39and Kola, you know, giving the perspective on the side of things to consider and I'm
40:43very healthy. And what I would like to respond to that is that
40:47even at the stage of the application for the protection order, it's important, and hence why
40:52I spoke about from a judicial context now, that there's a proper hearing so that you would not
40:57be having the difficulty of a fictitious address. Because when you are providing the information to
41:02the court, it has been checked before that protection order is signed. That's one. And two,
41:07if by chance someone is evading service, can we make an application? And if the law does not allow
41:12us to, is it now that the legislator may have to get involved now for reform where we can use
41:17an opportunity for an alternate service, so that you may have a situation where let's publish this
41:21protection order. And that's the point I was making a while ago that if we cannot say, okay,
41:25that we have the protection order and I cannot find Mark Bassan, and Mark Bassan is evading service,
41:29well, I'm going to go back to the court and indicate that so that we have the opportunity
41:33to say, okay, we publish it, what, in two daily newspapers for a two-week period, so that at least
41:38now there is, what, notice that, listen, there's a protection order, this is the terms and conditions,
41:42so if you breach it, you are in trouble. So, you know, it's, I mean, it's unfortunate.
41:47We have to find ways and means around some of the problems and maybe tightening up of
41:51particulars as it relates to the protection order, yeah?
41:54That's correct. Like in anything, Mark, if we are continuing to remain a society who are
41:59bent on, you know, maintaining a particular status quo, we are seeing things unfolding
42:05before our eyes, and if things need to be done expeditiously, whether it be legislative actions,
42:11whether it be executive actions, whether it be enforcement actions, whether it be a society,
42:16and I spoke about the families getting involved to assist the process, and I spoke about the
42:21community aware that there's a protection order, so even if the police is not around,
42:26and you've seen someone in an area that they shouldn't be, you yourself now becomes, what,
42:31maybe a first defense because you've seen, what, a possible breach of a protection order which
42:36gives rise to a criminal offense. So, this has to be something that we have to think deeply.
42:41It's unfortunate that circumstances like this unfold for us to really get our house in order,
42:46but Kola, I respect your position, and hence why I indicated that if what you have reported, Mark,
42:52that there were the, that protection orders were issued and lodged at the police station,
42:57hence why I call for a expeditious, diligent inquiry, so what we will know exactly, well,
43:02who dropped the ball, so that we can take the necessary actions to ensure that justice is served
43:06across the board in Trinidad and Tobago, and I am not ruling out proper assessment by the judiciary
43:14of Trinidad and Tobago to understand what is the present status quo, so you can issue protection
43:20orders with the necessary conditions to protect that particular individual.
43:25Okay, on that note, we're going to have to take a short break, and we'll be back. Stay with us.
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45:19Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host, Mark Bessant, of course, joined today by Corporal
45:23Zaheer Ali. Legally speaking, Wednesdays, and without much further ado, we do have another
45:30caller. Caller, good afternoon. Good evening. Good evening, ma'am. I hear you. Good evening,
45:36officer. Mark, the question you asked concerning the protection order, that was one of the things
45:42I was going to ask, so I wouldn't worry to go over with that. But what I found was really
45:47strange, the number of persons that gave information concerning how he behaved and
45:53he planned that the way he spoke. It is really very, very sad when you look at it,
45:57more than this. That's my first point. My second point, Officer Ali,
46:02what is the real thing in law concerning abandoned buildings? The reason why I'm asking this,
46:07because certain abandoned buildings all over, people just get in and they do all sorts of
46:14illegal things, drugs, guns, and all sorts of things. And then sometimes you just say,
46:19all right, I can't stop because this woman, she got killed in the abandoned buildings.
46:23What is the real law concerning abandoned buildings? Because there seems to be a lot
46:26of trouble because we had some down here too, and the same thing used to happen, and you know,
46:30next thing you hear is a fire. My last point is concerning the two men who were in Sapario. I
46:39think they said that took place in June. What I want to know is the police officer who dropped
46:45them. Did he know them? Did he know that they had guns? Because how a police officer could pick up
46:52two persons who have guns? You put in yourself at risk. So that's something funny to me. Something
46:58about that. Did he know them? Did he give them a lift and blah, whatever it is. So they were just,
47:04I would say a police officer, they give me a lift home and all sometimes, you know. So something is
47:09funny about that. They had guns. They just walk, what are they doing? They're going out the cell
47:14and just step across the way. With guns? Did the police know that? You know, something is wrong
47:19about that. All the best and be safe, all of you. Thank you very much. Well, thank you very much,
47:25Kola. Again, three very important issues, Mark. And Mark, let me begin with that last issue.
47:31Because I recognize that this Kola is a frequent Kola, I'm going to take this opportunity on this
47:36platform to advise my commissioner and the executive with reference to that last issue
47:43that she spoke about where allegedly a police officer picked up two persons. And you know,
47:49we know the rest of the story. Yes. I will take this opportunity because that Kola spoke about it
47:54to advise the executive to launch a deeper investigation with reference to that matter.
48:01And I'll say no more on that. With reference to the issue of the building that may not be occupied,
48:07Mark, that's a very serious issue when we are speaking about from a regional cooperation
48:11context. And even from a situation where you have seen crime and criminality where
48:14if you have buildings that are abandoned, in the first instance, we can view it as okay,
48:18it's not being occupied. It's not a facility that, you know, one can enjoy a comfortable
48:26level of living and other aspects. But let us look to the context. Someone still may, what,
48:33have some interest in the building, regardless if it cannot be occupied or even in the land.
48:39So what we should be doing is, and especially where the regional cooperation is concerned,
48:43this is the all-out society that we require. Join hands with the TTPS, join hands with the
48:48regional cooperation and let us start identifying who is the owner of that particular building
48:52and call on them, serve them notices now to try and get that building in a state of repair to
48:57ensure if they are not interested and they are looking to put it up for sale, that's their
49:06prerogative. But in terms of having it in a situation or a condition where it can be conducive
49:11for criminal activity, whether it be stashing firearms, stashing narcotics, and in this case
49:16where the body was found, this is a situation that when we are speaking about from an infrastructure
49:21context, this is the area that we need to deal with if we are seeing buildings that may even
49:25be causing, Mark, in this context, a public nuisance. So regional cooperation, you also have
49:31your responsibility. I'm holding the TTPS to account but you also have a responsibility under
49:35the Municipal Cooperation Act where you're looking at buildings and roads and so forth to ascertain
49:40what's happening there so that you can lend support to the police service with reference to
49:44when we are speaking about building. But caller, thank you very much for your three submissions.
49:47We dealt with the first issue in our previous engagements. We actually do have another caller.
49:52Caller, good afternoon.
49:54Pleasant good afternoon, Mr. Mark. Pleasant good afternoon to Corporal Ali. My contribution
50:03to the program is that this bullying situation is going on in Trinidad now. That is a copycat
50:11of America and I find in my knowledge that when these children do these wrongdoings,
50:21charge the parents, charge the children so they will know what time it is because it is
50:29overbearing now. It is really overbearing now. It's acting on my nose now. I cannot take it no
50:36more. Let the legislation go in this way that the government will put things in perspective
50:44that, you know, we are serious about our children up in Trinidad and Tobago now and I would like
50:51Mr. Ali to know that my granddaughter is stepping in his footsteps soon to come. Thank you.
50:59Good evening. Well, thank you very much caller. You know, I am moved to hear about your
51:05daughter or your granddaughter. I think you said, you know, I'm moved by it. I want to wish
51:08all the best as well. Thank you for that. Mark, let's go straight into that issue that you raised
51:13with the bullying. You know, a purported term that she has argued have been brought from
51:19from another jurisdiction. But Mark, this issue of bullying and I know that an assistant commissioner
51:24would have spoken in the southern division. Mr. Meister, yes. Yeah, with reference to
51:31how we looked at this issue of bullying and, you know, looking at the Offences Against the
51:35Persons Act. Mark, let me say from a legal context immediately, there's an offence of harassment
51:42in the Offences Against the Persons Act, section 30, A, B, C, D, and E. And immediately if we look
51:48at that harassment in the way that we should look at it, you will see where it's a course of conduct
51:53that puts place someone or alarm someone or place someone in a level of distress.
51:58And then it comes at the end and any other conduct. So while it may have specified,
52:02like, for example, a telephone to the individual coming at the person's premises, taking the
52:09person's property, that sort of intervention, it has no all encompassing clause will say on any
52:13other conduct that may be when you look at it in a reasonable way, we'll be able to attribute a
52:21person being alarmed and distressed by your conduct. If we look at that particular harassment,
52:25Mark, that particular section of the Offences Against the Persons Act, what we need to do
52:29is to apply that in the present status quo in Trinidad and Tobago. And I would go as far to say
52:34even look at it in the context where children versus children. So while harassment may have been
52:40enacted for reference to in a general context in terms of persons who may be alarming persons and
52:45causing person distress, let us look at the provision as a start to see how we can tweak it
52:51to be able to deal with the issues of what we call in quote-unquote bullying. It's really in the
52:57realm if we are looking at it carefully, criminal offenses, contravention of the criminal also. I
53:03want to give to the legislators, the Ministry of Education, the TTPS, let us look at that harassment
53:08and to compound that. Mark, you know, we had looked at an area called social studies. Of course.
53:16I think that when we are looking at social studies, let us bring things like harassment.
53:21Let us bring things that will be conducive to imparting upon the young people what is the
53:28acceptable level of behavior and discipline that is required of them and also directed
53:34to the parents as well. Okay. On that note, we'll take a break and we'll be back.
53:48Athletes, coaches, administrators, and public. We need to find the desire to work together.
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55:29Welcome back to Beyond the Tape. I'm your host, of course, Mark Bassan, joined by Corporal Zeri
55:33Ali of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service. We are engaging in that conversation quite quickly.
55:37We don't have a lot of time, but I know that there are legal parameters and I just want to ask,
55:43is it time for perhaps looking at an anti-bullying legislation to kind of,
55:49you know, some of the things that you have talked about to cover those things?
55:53Mark, I think it would be something that will be of importance. And while I don't want to, you know,
56:01coach it as a legislation per se, the fact that I've identified a part of the offenses against
56:07personal harassment, what I think we should do immediately is that the legislators,
56:11the Ministry of Education, the National Security Ministry in particular, have a look at this
56:15particular section and look at a section in the context of where children are maybe engaging
56:20children so that we can see whether we need to, you know, make any subtle amendments. But the
56:25concept of harassment, which speaks about conduct and behavior and consequences that may flow from
56:30it, I think that's an area we need to look at if I get your question correct in terms of
56:35from a legislative context. My final point with reference to this for this afternoon,
56:39Mark, because no time is of the essence, is that while we know that there's a piece of law that
56:43can work, what we need to understand as well in these schools, sometimes the schools, again,
56:49I'm talking about, and I'm saying that, you know, based on information and intelligence,
56:52I do have evidence, may sometimes be looking at protecting the image of a school when we are
56:56speaking about conduct that may be unacceptable. The time has come where the principal who is
57:01responsible for the school, that the discipline of the school, and even his delegates, his teachers,
57:06once we have seen activities that can impact and is of a violent nature or has the potential to be
57:12violent, we cannot be thinking about a school image. We need to bring it to the authorities
57:16so that the necessary intervention can be made swiftly to avoid any deadly circumstances. So,
57:22I think it's important, Mark, from an enforcement context, we need to bring it to the attention of
57:27the respective authorities, legislative context, and the parents say, I do not want to leave the
57:32parents out. They should also be caught by harassment. So, for example, let it be where
57:37the law say that if you fail to supervise a child in these circumstances, you yourself can be
57:44attracting a criminal sanction, not necessarily a custodial sentence, but you can be fined and you
57:50can be ordered for to attend programs for good parenting and that sort of thing. So, I think it
57:54has to be looked at in a 360, but Mark, again, very serious issues, and I thank you very much
58:00for your engagement and the caller's engagement this afternoon. Certainly, that was very interesting
58:06there from Corporal Ali. Also, to say, to add to that, that I was having a discussion
58:12with a parent this afternoon talking about apparent bullying in a prestigious school
58:19where, apparently, on Monday, three students were suspended for doing simple things like taking a
58:25water canister and putting it in a garbage bin and so on, and the other parent was urging the
58:30person to speak up. If you see things like this happening in the school, whether it be a prestigious
58:35school or not, it's the same type of behavior that we want to stamp out across these schools and,
58:42of course, even in workplaces and so on. So, we'll leave you with that. We'll be back here tomorrow
58:47at 6 p.m. Remember, we run tonight at 11 theatre, tomorrow at 11 o'clock. The TV6 News is up next.
58:53Stay with us.
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