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00:00This program is unsuitable for young children.
00:30Beyond the Tape will be back after these messages.
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01:48Do you remember?
01:50Who knows?
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01:53Do you remember?
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01:57Do you remember?
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02:00We better know.
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02:44Good evening.
02:45Welcome to Beyond the Tape.
02:46It is Wednesday, the 17th of July.
02:50As it's Wednesday, that means it's all about legally speaking,
02:54the legal minds, the jargon that is used.
02:57But the conversation that continues throughout our homes, our workplaces,
03:01even on the street is the crime situation that continues to run rampant
03:06throughout Trinidad and Tobago.
03:08Now, a religious leader came out and was stating that a curfew should be
03:13something that we should look at to try to find some control
03:18with the crime situation.
03:19Is that going to work?
03:20Are we able to deal with if we put the military out there with the SOE
03:25to assist us?
03:26We need to find out more on that and the laws of our land
03:30and how we could find ways to maneuver through this.
03:33At this time, we have our attorney-at-law with us this evening,
03:37Corporal Ali, who is no stranger to the show.
03:39Good evening to you, sir.
03:40How are you?
03:41Well, good evening to you, Whitney.
03:42First, Whitney, based on my intelligence,
03:44I see that you are featuring in the open media,
03:47and maybe you might be able to give some further account
03:50as to that feature that I'm seeing on the written media.
03:55But we'll discuss that as we go along.
03:57I know that that may be something that you may also want to be
04:00keeping close to you.
04:01But good evening to you.
04:02It's a pleasure to be on this platform, family, and be on the tape.
04:06Citizens of Trinidad and Tobago and persons out of the jurisdiction,
04:11including persons who are foreigners.
04:14Whitney, last time I was on this platform was on Friday.
04:18Yes.
04:19And I asked the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago and citizens,
04:24meaning both the public and the private sector,
04:26to look at the issue of legitimacy.
04:29And this afternoon, I renewed that call,
04:36and I renewed that call in the context of what transpired
04:38over the last couple of days, and especially over the weekend,
04:41where it's public knowledge that not only the law enforcement agencies,
04:45but Trinidad and Tobago was tested in reference to the escalation
04:51in very, very serious crimes.
04:54And condolences to all the persons who lost their life
04:58in those circumstances.
05:01I just wanted to make mention of something, Whitney,
05:03that I also spoke on Friday,
05:05we saw based on the intelligence persons are leaving one police division
05:10or one community and venturing into another community,
05:14and we've seen the outcome.
05:16So, again, for Trinidad and Tobago, I saw that the criminologists,
05:20many criminologists and persons in different sectors of the society
05:24have made their contribution with reference to lending some suggestion
05:29or recommendation in terms of how we as a society can respond to this.
05:33What I want to say to you is that, and from a personal context,
05:36I will continue to advise and urge the law enforcement agencies
05:41to ensure that they do all that is required to ensure that we restore
05:44safety and security.
05:46We cannot, we cannot, it's not possible to put your hands in the air
05:50and allow this thing to continue.
05:51We have to do something.
05:53So I want to assure you all that as far as I can go,
05:55I will continue to advocate,
05:56and I just want to call on the law enforcement agencies.
05:59I must admit that in recent times I've seen some very focused discussions
06:03taking place.
06:04It's unfortunate that a weekend like this would have been the trigger,
06:09but it's never too late to respond.
06:12So I just want to assure the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago
06:14that law enforcement agencies, they are, in fact, strategizing.
06:19As we speak, there are some operations that are unfolding.
06:22I don't want to give too much to it, but there are some operations unfolding,
06:25and, again, I want to urge members of the public to continue
06:28to have confidence and continue to make your contribution
06:32to ensuring that we restore safety and security as soon as possible.
06:36Those who may be close or associated with these acts of violence with me,
06:40again, I want to take the opportunity to speak directly to these families.
06:45I want to speak directly to the families that over the last 96 hours
06:49or 108 hours, from over the weekend stemming to now,
06:54you alone will know how you're feeling as a family when you lost your loved ones.
06:57And I just want to appeal to you all to reconsider.
07:00Reconsider the company, the association that you all are getting yourself involved in,
07:07and, you know, the situation that occurs is unfortunate, but let us reflect on it.
07:10And those who are looking on, please understand that when you are involving yourself
07:15or associating yourself with gang and gang-related activity,
07:19you are placing your security and well-being in prejudice.
07:23So please, reconsider it, and that question that I asked in terms of legitimacy,
07:27are you, as a citizen of this country, complying with the laws to ensure that you are safe
07:32and continue to enjoy all your rights and privileges that you are afforded
07:37in this beloved Trinidad and Tobago?
07:39We'll dive in more into the conversation and the topic of Han with the SOE and the curfew,
07:45but right now, let's take a look at what made the headlines today.
08:23And we are back.
08:45Now, we speak of accountability and holding people accountable,
08:49and we saw in the headlines today that a police officer was held over a rape of his niece.
08:55So, you know, many times persons will call and say the officers believe they are above the law
09:00and they can do what they want, but I wanted to bring some attention to this story in particular
09:05because usually you'll hear the person say we don't see officers before the court
09:11and being held accountable.
09:13Well, definitely, Whitney, and I'm happy that you highlighted it as well.
09:17I will say, you know, publicly that when we are speaking about the rule of law,
09:21no one is above the rule of law.
09:23That is well established and has been well established for a very long time.
09:26So whether you are a police officer, and I remember, and, you know, I say this in a soft way,
09:31I remember once engaging the Director of Public Prosecutions, Senior Counsel Mr. Roger Gaspard,
09:37and it was an investigation involving a public official.
09:41And for various reasons I would not go in detail, but what stood out to me in discussing the matter,
09:48he was very clear that when you are a public official on oath,
09:52and you should be serving and making a contribution to public and public good,
09:55and you breach the criminal law, you are no longer a police officer, a prison officer, a defense force officer.
10:01You are a suspect in a criminal investigation.
10:04So when he said that, it moved me.
10:06And secondly, we had, at that particular occasion, we had a junior officer.
10:13The investigation was surrounding a senior officer.
10:15And right there and then, it was like, well, okay, this person is senior in authority.
10:20How would it look like a junior officer?
10:22And again, the same thing came back into the equation,
10:24that you are no longer an inspector, an assistant superintendent when you contravene a criminal law.
10:28You are a suspect like anybody else.
10:30So Whitney, I want to compound that position that you have taken,
10:34that no one, absolutely no one, is above the law.
10:38And the rule of law will always stand out.
10:40Yes, and also showing as well with the white collar side of crime,
10:45where the officers were working extremely hard.
10:48So with this matter here that is before the court, and of course we can't speak too much on it,
10:53but it is showing that they are also dealing with that side of crime, not just the blue collar crime.
10:58Well, I'm happy that you raised that.
10:59Why we cannot speak on this matter, Whitney?
11:01I think that in the present status quo, and I'm happy that you're leading me there,
11:05in the present status quo, a couple of months ago, in our crime symposium,
11:10I deliberately called for an expeditious proclamation of the Civil Asset for Future Act,
11:18of the Civil Asset for Future and Unexplained Wealth Act.
11:24And I think that when you are speaking about financial crimes,
11:27we cannot rule out, or I should say, in support of the blue collar action,
11:31what we call investigating the murders, the shootings, the possession of firearms,
11:35trafficking of dangerous drugs, and so forth.
11:37It must be balanced with diligent financial investigations.
11:41Because let's be real, crime will continue, and criminality will continue,
11:48when there's profits, when there's things to gain.
11:51So how do we really target this in a 360?
11:55I'm happy that you spoke about the financial aspect.
11:57So we cannot rule out.
11:58We are in search of firearms.
12:00We are there to disrupt and dismantle criminal gangs.
12:03But what does disruption and dismantle mean?
12:05Disruption and dismantle is not about only effecting arrests for shooting, murders, and possession of firearms,
12:11but ensuring that you're seeing that properties that are derived from criminal activity,
12:16monies that are derived from criminal activity,
12:18vehicles that are derived from criminal activities,
12:20are also taken out of crime to ensure that we are effective in our response.
12:23So I'm happy that you identify the white collar aspect of things.
12:26And, again, I'm making another call for an expeditious proclamation of the Civil Asset for Feature.
12:33And the reason why I'm saying that quickly is that with the Civil Asset for Feature,
12:37if perchance there is no success in a criminal investigation,
12:43based on the suspicion and the reasonable cause,
12:46you can still have the opportunity, through particular protocols,
12:49to engage that particular section to involve yourself in an investigation involving the finance
12:55to exert that pressure on the criminal elements.
12:58Let's take a look at what was trending on social media throughout Trinidad.
13:02This was caught on camera, and I want you all to pay attention to what transpired here.
13:16Now it shows that you don't need a gun or a weapon to steal.
13:27And we may think that men are the ones who are always involved in stealing items or holding up individuals,
13:35but there are women who are involved in the life of crime as well.
13:39And we think while that video is unfolding, just again,
13:54if those persons took heed in terms of the question that I asked in terms of legitimacy,
14:00how legitimate is their conduct?
14:02How legitimate is their conduct?
14:04That's a good one.
14:05And I don't know whether it's a supermarket or a pharmacy or maybe a hybrid,
14:11but the fact of the matter is I'm sure that that particular entity would provide them with the essential need.
14:18So here it is that if in fact it's what we are seeing,
14:22if in fact it goes on for the commission of an offence of minimum larceny,
14:28it shows that from a citizen context, are we really observing the laws?
14:31Are we observing the ethics?
14:34And it's something that we need to revisit ourselves.
14:36So sometimes we might be looking at in a more serious context and rightly so,
14:39the gang conflict that is occurring.
14:41But look here, it is simple or what may appear to be simple matters,
14:46but in law, they are what?
14:48Acts of criminality.
14:49If in fact that person takes and carries away those items that are capable of being stolen
14:54without the consent of the owner with the intention to permanently bribe those persons.
15:00So again, as simple as it can be, and just to conjunct it, and I spoke about it some time ago,
15:05could you imagine those persons now are going to meet other persons
15:08who will be the recipient of those stolen items and didn't ask,
15:10well, okay, you didn't have a means of income.
15:13So society, we need to revisit ourselves.
15:17We need to look at ourselves clearly.
15:19And sometimes, I remember they spoke about that broken window theory,
15:23where sometimes you look at very serious crimes, but very simple things as a society,
15:28if we are not looking at, then those things now will mature into more serious matters.
15:33So again, excellent video in relation to us making our points in relation to legitimacy,
15:41observing the rule, observing the rule of ethics.
15:44And the law.
15:45That's correct.
15:46We take a break. We'll be back with more.
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16:41In life, there are those that walk with us.
16:48They guide us with love and wisdom.
16:51In moments of joy and in moments of pain, their love never changes.
17:02As time goes on, when life takes unexpected turns, love blossoms and a new chapter begins,
17:12one with promises and commitments.
17:15But during the joy of our happiest moments, there is an absence.
17:22Even though they might not be present, their love, guidance and legacy live on in every moment.
17:32Charles Jordan Ammons.
17:34Make every moment extraordinary.
17:45Anytime you leave your keys in the ignition when you pull up to your driveway,
17:50you make yourself an easy target for theft and robbery.
17:55Make it tough for criminals.
17:57Don't give them a chance.
17:59Switch off your engine, remove your keys and stay alert.
18:15And welcome back, Corporal Ali and the nation.
18:27I want you to pay attention to this video and most importantly, listen as well.
18:33Let's take a look.
18:35So my comrade, the maxi driver got locked up today, Wednesday the 17th of July 2024.
18:44The reason he got locked up today is because yesterday,
18:48two policewomen were having trouble to arrest someone in city gate,
18:54asked for his help and he said no, he not getting in that.
18:59And I could understand why because the amount of crime we have in this country,
19:03driving maxi, we don't want to involve ourselves in police business.
19:07So they came back today, Wednesday the 17th of July 2024
19:12and lock him up because he did not help them.
19:16And by law, they have the right.
19:18Look the law in the center, the screen here.
19:21The law in the center of the screen.
19:23You can believe that?
19:24If you don't help the police when they ask you to arrest somebody,
19:28they could come back and lock you up by law.
19:31You live and you learn.
19:33I never know that.
19:34What do you think about that?
19:35Put it in the comments what you think.
19:37Share this for education.
19:39So they could know if the police say, hey, help me lock up this man,
19:43or they have to by law.
19:45Wow.
19:46That is crazy in this country, in this kind of period of time
19:49where everyone have guns.
19:51It's sad, it's sad, it's sad.
19:53Poor fella.
19:54Corporal Ali.
19:57Brittany, let me take my time and treat with this matter.
20:02Let me begin by indicating that if this matter is sub judice-y
20:05or contemplated to be going before the court,
20:08my comment is not geared towards the particular facts of this matter.
20:13But I think it's important because it is trending,
20:16and especially in the present status quo,
20:19I want to make sure that members of the public are very clear
20:21as to where this particular law is concerned.
20:24Now, this particular law that has been pasted on the screen
20:31stems from the Police Service Act, Section 60 of the Police Service Act.
20:36Now, there are many things I want to say about this, Brittany,
20:39and please permit me about two to three minutes to really dissect this
20:41because I think it's an important matter.
20:44Like in anything else, we have spoken about reform,
20:48we have spoken about the relevance of law,
20:51and if we are just going to draw a perspective to this,
20:53and I want to be very balanced in the approach,
20:55and I want to thank the person who decided to place it into the public domain
20:59and to advocate for it to be an educational posting.
21:05Minimum 2006-2007, with the amendment of the Police Service Act to 2024,
21:11that's 13 and 4, about 17 odd years.
21:15The question is whether law, in the way that that law is structured,
21:19in the present status quo where there is a heightened violence with criminal activities,
21:23whether in fact that particular section continues to enjoy its relevance.
21:26So that is the first point I want to make.
21:28I am not saying it's not relevant, I'm not saying it's relevant,
21:30but the question I'm posing to the stakeholders, the society,
21:33the Parliament in particular, whether that particular section,
21:36where police officers calling persons to assist in a particular state of affairs,
21:41whether in fact in the present status quo it is relevant.
21:43So that's the first point I want to make.
21:45Secondly, I want members of the public to be very careful when they dissect a law.
21:50And if you dissect that provision of the law,
21:53we are reading it in a swift way, but I want us to pause a little bit.
21:59In that particular section,
22:01there are some specific things I want to mention in terms of,
22:03one, the police officer, if he's resisted or there's danger.
22:08So those are the operative words, resisted or danger.
22:12Now, why does the lawmakers back then may have contemplated such a provision?
22:16If we are saying that our mission as a police service and as a society,
22:19that we should be in partnership with the police
22:21to preserve the peace in Trinidad and Tobago,
22:23what is expected of the citizen if the police is going into action?
22:26What are they really going into action to do?
22:28Preserve the peace and ensure that what?
22:30Public safety and security.
22:31And equally, what the law has done is placed a responsibility
22:35on the citizens of Trinidad and Tobago
22:37to partner with the police in relation to particular circumstances.
22:41However, be reminded where the police officer is resisted or there is a danger.
22:47So two very operative words.
22:49So that is the second thing in terms of how do you read the provision.
22:52Thirdly, Whitney, in that particular section there,
22:56it happens if the person refuses or neglects.
23:00And there is a very important limit with all reasonable cause.
23:05So if the circumstances is one and this is for law enforcement,
23:08let me advise you respectfully
23:11that if you are looking to enforce a provision like this,
23:14please ensure that the natural justice principle plays off
23:17so that the person who purportedly is refusing or neglecting
23:21understand the status quo as to why that person may have behaved in that particular way
23:25because you may well find,
23:26forget about the part about just saying, okay, a deliberate refusal or neglect.
23:29Do you know if that person has any condition?
23:32And I'm just creating this, I'm not giving a defense,
23:35but any condition that may have prohibited
23:38that person becoming involved in that scenario.
23:41But what if the person just does not want to?
23:43Well, I'm just saying that whether you don't want to or refusal,
23:46that reasonable cause, you have to know,
23:49and that is where the natural justice is.
23:51Okay, you didn't do it, but what's your reason for it?
23:53So there must be some reason as to why it is that you did not facilitate the police officer.
24:00So that's the third thing I want to mention with reference to this particular video.
24:03Which is natural justice.
24:04Well, yeah, when you're talking about with all reasonable cause,
24:07basically it's implied that if you are asked,
24:10you're going to employ a provision on someone and they say, okay,
24:13a person who refuses or neglects to assist a police officer
24:16and the law also going as far to say with all reasonable cause,
24:19what are they expecting?
24:20How would you know what was the person's position?
24:22If in the course of the investigation,
24:23that person wasn't given a chance to be heard.
24:25And finally, fourth, and finally, with reference to this video,
24:31this particular section,
24:34and I want police officers to also be very diligent in terms of when looking at this
24:39and also members of the public.
24:41If based on the facts of this matter,
24:44this offence of failure to support the police is in a summary jurisdiction.
24:49If we are hearing persons are coming back the next day to effect an arrest,
24:53then section 104, if I mistake,
24:57104-108 of the Summary Courts Act,
25:00which gives a power of arrest for summary offences.
25:03It is very clear, found committing.
25:05So to effect an arrest for a summary offence,
25:08the person, the aggressor must be found committing the summary offence.
25:11So that in this particular scenario,
25:13it may well have been a situation where should we be going for an arrest
25:17or should we be proceeding through summons
25:19to put the person before the court based on the nature of the offence.
25:22And I think I need to add one more perspective for this
25:25because this really is something that I thought is important for members of the public
25:29especially now where we will be dependent on members of the public to come forward.
25:33Now, under the Miscellaneous Provisions,
25:36Law Enforcement Act,
25:38now Whitney, you realise that they just quoted one section of the Police Service Act.
25:41I've already tabled the Summary Courts Act
25:43and now I'm going to table another legislation.
25:45You see how dynamic this particular provision is
25:47where laws cannot be seen in isolation.
25:50It has to be looked at in this context.
25:52So under the Miscellaneous Provision, Law Enforcement Officers Act,
25:55there was an amendment to the Police Service Act
25:58which spoke about persons who understood the protection of both the police
26:02and the persons who are called upon to assist
26:04because the person who was speaking was, and quite rightly,
26:07expressed a concern about the violence in the society.
26:10Let me say to you all that persons who are called upon to assist a police officer
26:14in relation to where the police officer is in the execution of his duties
26:18and the aggressor turns and inflicts any harm on that person
26:23who is called upon to assist the police.
26:25So it's not only the aggressor inflicting
26:27or resisting or threatening or obstructing the police
26:30but anybody who the police calls to assist him or her.
26:33If that conduct is directed to those individuals,
26:37that's a very serious criminal offence as well
26:39stemming from 10 to 15 years in relation to those circumstances.
26:43So while it may have appeared like a simple provision
26:46under the Police Service Act for a person who refused or neglect,
26:49I want to give you the confidence and the assurance
26:52that with your civic duty,
26:54and now the statute now has placed a responsibility on you,
26:57if a police officer, I may go as far to say,
27:00any persons who are exercising investigatory powers, like the police,
27:04who call any civilian to assist,
27:07members of the Republic, we are asking you kindly,
27:10render your assistance unless there is a real cause
27:14for you not to render your assistance
27:16and if that is the case, do not hesitate to advance that position
27:20through the proper channels.
27:22So please remember those four points.
27:25Read the provision in its entirety.
27:28Do not just look at one part of the provision.
27:30Look at the other parts of the provision.
27:32And as I said before, as I begin,
27:34this is in no way to speak on the facts of the matter.
27:37I'm not aware of the facts of the matter
27:39but I thought it was important because of how it's heavily publicized
27:44to ensure that the citizens and the police in particular
27:48continue to enjoy that partnership that we require
27:52to deal with criminal activities in Trinidad and Tobago.
27:55The need to re-evaluate that act.
27:57We need to take a break.
27:58When we come back, we will take some calls and continue the discussion.
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29:19Ah, boy.
29:23I feel like going out and buying myself a senorita tonight.
29:26Nah, nah, nah.
29:28You know you might be promoting slavery.
29:30Slavery?
29:31Mm-hmm.
29:32What are you talking about?
29:33Hey.
29:34Modern-day slavery or human trafficking
29:37is just what some of these people just do.
29:40You know some of these women were tricked to come here?
29:45Some are held against their will.
29:48Abused.
29:49And even beaten.
29:51Most times the girls don't even see any of the money that is paid for them.
29:55Every night, they just have to come out looking nice and sexy
29:59for somebody like you.
30:02Human trafficking is a serious problem and a serious crime.
30:06Persons who solicit commercial sex services
30:09may be contributing to human trafficking.
30:11A message from the Counter-Trafficking Unit of the Ministry of National Security.
30:24Legally speaking, Wednesdays you can give us a call
30:26623-1711 extension 1992, 1993, and 1997.
30:31Corporal Ali, our tenured lord that is here.
30:33We have a call on the line.
30:34Let's head to the phone lines.
30:35Hello.
30:36Good evening.
30:37Hi.
30:38Good afternoon, Whitney.
30:39Good afternoon, Corporal Ali.
30:40Good evening, sir.
30:41Good evening to you, sir.
30:42Yeah.
30:43To the show, I have a question.
30:46It was so sad that they did like a moral survey.
30:50What would you do?
30:52What would you do?
30:53And the vast majority of the individuals who called, man and woman,
30:55they did not represent a lot of people.
30:58And it was sad for me a lot.
31:01I felt the same way.
31:03Really, really sad.
31:05Every situation, you can't do anything about it.
31:09There's somebody who happens to be a violent individual
31:12or somebody who happens to be a known affiliated gangster or something.
31:16No, Corporal Ali, sorry to say, I'm not stepping in that.
31:19Because in this country, real crime is going on right now.
31:22Understand?
31:23We really don't know who to trust.
31:25I don't want to come to assist you, Corporal Ali, and apprehend Whitney.
31:28And Whitney happens to be some kind of victim, too.
31:31Know this one, know that one.
31:32My faith gets us all over the media or social media.
31:35Next thing you know, tomorrow, they're looking for me.
31:38Understand?
31:39Now, in the situation with the maxi driver,
31:41the two officers came back to apprehend with us today.
31:44I really don't know the outcome.
31:46But I think it would have been nice if they had spoken to him
31:49and put him in the situation and couldn't arrest him.
31:52Because it's really hard to know.
31:54You're always trying to apply to make an honest dollar.
31:57You get called upon to assist a police officer,
32:00but because of the nature of criminal crime,
32:02you don't want to assist, then you come and get a case here now.
32:05Great program.
32:06I think they've taken it to the line.
32:08Thank you very much.
32:09Just to respond to the caller.
32:10Caller, again, if there's one thing that the citizen will know of Zahir Ali,
32:15is that I respect your rights and I respect your position.
32:18And if we do not respect each other,
32:20that Clarion and that Frank position, we ought to respect it as well.
32:24Yes, of course.
32:25But what I want to say to Trinidad and Tobago,
32:27there's another little context as well.
32:29There's also, Whitney, let us factor this in in terms of, okay,
32:32under the criminal law, which is another legislation I'm going to identify,
32:36we always heard about a civilian arrest.
32:39And we have always spoken to members of the public to understand that, okay,
32:42while you may have a power with reference to a civilian arrest in certain
32:46circumstances,
32:47the exercising of that particular power that the law has provided for you,
32:52and just in comparison where you are called upon to assist in effecting an
32:56arrest.
32:57In my respective view, all depend on the circumstances that is prevailing.
33:01So I want members of the public to do not go away thinking that, okay,
33:04we see a provision like that.
33:06We see something may have occurred today in terms of something unfolding
33:08where actions are taken for personal refusing.
33:11All I'm saying to you is that it has to be a balance.
33:13And the police officers who are calling those persons,
33:15understand the situation in which you are calling them into as well,
33:18so that you will have an appreciation as to whether, in fact,
33:20a refusal or a neglect will be now satisfying that reasonable cause to
33:25refuse or neglect in those circumstances.
33:27Corporal Ali, once a police officer or officers are involved,
33:30I not do no citizen's arrest, or they might have to arrest me.
33:33We have a call.
33:34Let's take the call quickly because I know the phone lines are flooded.
33:36Hello.
33:37Good evening.
33:39Ms. Whitney, I'm Corporal Ali.
33:42I wish I was on the police service commission to elevate you into the
33:48hierarchy of the police executive.
33:53You continue to instill confidence in me as a citizen with respect to
34:00what the police service must be doing.
34:04Now, I want to reflect back on one of your earlier utterances with
34:09respect to that incident where the guy was basically saying they want to
34:16arrest a person for not helping the police.
34:18Today there was a judgment on the newspaper where a police informant
34:24apparently was charged and was set up.
34:30And he was free today because from my reading and my understanding of the
34:35article, he was shot and he was not willing to give any other information
34:45or an informant to the police service.
34:48They called him in to the police station, it appears,
34:52and they planted a gun on him.
34:55And what I saw in the article is that he said the two policemen who he was
35:01assisting, one is at ACP now and the other one is a senior superintendent.
35:07And the other frightening thing is the person who led the evidence against
35:12him in the court was a senior police officer.
35:16And to me, it appears from my vantage, I don't have all the evidence,
35:21there was a concoction to a prosecuting man.
35:24So that is in sync with what you were saying.
35:27No, let me get to the meat of my thing.
35:30What are we doing to encourage confidence in the police?
35:35The police service.
35:37We change it from force to service.
35:39That doesn't help.
35:40We always want to put the boy and the girl.
35:43I want to ask you directly, is there any sort of indication within the
35:49police service to transform itself,
35:52to do corrective action with respect to errant police officers?
35:57What are we doing to quickly get them out of the force so people will start
36:02to gain some confidence?
36:04And if there is a discussion of that, because as I see it now,
36:08I don't have no respect for the current leadership of the police.
36:13I believe they basically are a true, true example of Peter principle,
36:19if you understand that.
36:20And they have gained their incompetency at the corporate level.
36:23So as they were promoted, that incompetency followed them.
36:28And that's all I have to say because I am annoyed with the police service
36:32with respect to offer a product and service.
36:36They only promoted themselves and they're not producing the product and
36:40service that we as citizens depend on.
36:44Good evening.
36:45And if I have ever been allowed to be part of the police service commission,
36:51you're going to be my first choice to be elevated.
36:54Everyone have a nice night.
36:56Thank you.
36:57Let me begin by thanking you for your kind comments.
37:00I must indicate to you and other callers who have echoed similar sentiments.
37:04It's an inspiration for me.
37:05It's a motivator for me.
37:06And I also want to acknowledge your very strong comments.
37:10And with me,
37:11this is something that I have always respected members of the public for
37:13that.
37:14Once we see that this society, the institution of the state.
37:17And in context, he has spoken about the police service as belonging to us.
37:21Then we have to make our voices be heard and show that, okay,
37:23what do we want?
37:25And that is you that call for Aaron or police officers who may be involved
37:29in criminal activities and making it even more difficult.
37:33And he has asked a very piercing question.
37:36Unfortunately at this platform.
37:38Well, I would love to answer it.
37:40All I can give the assurance that I will continue to do all that I could to
37:44advocate to ensure that actions are taken in relation to these police
37:47officers.
37:48But Whitney, just before we, there's another call.
37:50No, we need to take a break.
37:51We will continue with more.
37:53We'll be back.
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39:06What is where the name Larry?
39:07I get in with him.
39:08No.
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39:24It'll again.
39:25Good boy.
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39:28Hey,
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39:58A lot to unwrap this evening.
40:00Corporal,
40:01are you making a point before we went to the break?
40:03Yeah,
40:04I think it's important.
40:05I know I'm in public television,
40:07but when I go back to office as well,
40:09I'll do it.
40:10But if persons are listening,
40:12that particular video,
40:13if in fact it's an active investigation,
40:15I want to advise the executive and the DPS immediately,
40:18whoever department that may be impacting,
40:20that is important to get control and management over that particular
40:25state of affairs so that the proper advice and direction could be given,
40:28including if need be a consultation with the director of public prosecution
40:32to that matter.
40:33The fact that we have spoken in relation to touching some of the law,
40:36not only facts,
40:37but I think a responsible position will be to ensure that whoever has
40:40jurisdiction,
40:41supervising jurisdiction over that matter,
40:43that they call in that matter and do some due diligence on taking necessary
40:47legal steps that may be required to ensure that the public's interests
40:51are serving in relation to that matter.
40:53So I just want to make mention of that.
40:55But Whitney,
40:56I wanted to stress that in the time that we are living in,
40:59and I was speaking about civilian arrest.
41:01I know it's sometimes difficult for members of the public to say,
41:04okay,
41:05they don't want to intervene in a situation.
41:07And as I said,
41:08we need to respect that as well.
41:09But if there are circumstances in which you can assist the police,
41:12we live here together.
41:14Please exercise that discretion to be able to say,
41:17okay,
41:18I'm going to go in now to do some public service.
41:20If it's a situation where it may be danger to you or risk to you,
41:23then,
41:24okay,
41:25we have to respect that,
41:26but do not just,
41:27you know,
41:28blatantly just say,
41:29okay,
41:30I'm not going to the police officer's assistance.
41:31And I'll tell you why.
41:32Could you imagine Whitney?
41:33And I don't mean to,
41:34in fact,
41:35I shouldn't use you as an example here.
41:36Could you imagine that a female who is going about her business is being
41:39assaulted over the intention to rape that individual police is trying to
41:43get control of the situation.
41:45The police is overpowered.
41:46Are you going to leave a mother,
41:48a potential mother,
41:49a daughter to be going through those activities?
41:51No,
41:52we need to render some assistance.
41:53So I don't want us to just look at it and say,
41:55okay,
41:56maybe I refuse to allow any neglect,
41:57maybe on strong grounds.
41:58If we could,
41:59please play a role.
42:00So you strike your balance.
42:01All right.
42:02We have a call on the line.
42:03Let's take that call.
42:04Hello.
42:05Good evening.
42:06Good evening.
42:07Good evening,
42:08ma'am.
42:09Go ahead.
42:10Good evening to you,
42:11ma'am.
42:12Good evening.
42:13I never knew that you could have been charged for that because I know
42:16sometimes what happens is when officers trying to arrest females and
42:20sometimes people are wrong.
42:21They say,
42:22you can't do that because it's a female,
42:23blah,
42:24blah,
42:25blah,
42:26blah.
42:27But I never knew you could have been charged for that.
42:29No,
42:30but my point is,
42:31when we are saying we want to know what is the crime plan.
42:35Now,
42:36what are the crime plan content should be?
42:39Because if you have a wedding plan,
42:41you're planning how the wedding should be.
42:43So when you ask for a crime plan,
42:45what are you saying?
42:46You're looking at crime and how you could commit crime or you put in things
42:50to deal with crime.
42:52That's my first point.
42:53The second point is we are always being told you have to be very careful
42:57with how you're dealing with people when they're selling things and they're
43:00doing things and they said,
43:01all right,
43:02and let us go by a police station.
43:03But I see a WP,
43:06a police officer,
43:07a female police officer.
43:09She was,
43:10she was going to sell something,
43:12selling things.
43:13And it's because she was fleeced.
43:16So I'm wondering if they are telling us not to do this and be careful in
43:20doing this.
43:21And she didn't do it.
43:22She could have used the police area.
43:24She didn't use it.
43:25I am saying you're telling us that,
43:27but you were doing something that you,
43:28you get fleeced and that shouldn't happen.
43:30The third point is officer.
43:32When files are missing,
43:35important files are missing.
43:37Who would be responsible?
43:39What can be done?
43:41Because if I read somewhere where some files are missing and they had to
43:45throw out something.
43:46So can you tell me nothing can be done?
43:48They don't have like computer system where they can get things.
43:51What can be done when files are missing?
43:53Somebody has to answer about that.
43:56Have a blessed evening,
43:58all of you and be safe.
43:59All of you.
44:00Thank you very much.
44:01I thought she was a shout out Jackie one time.
44:03Well,
44:04thank you very much.
44:05Let me again,
44:06let me acknowledge your submissions,
44:07like the previous callers.
44:08Let me deal with the last issue first in terms of,
44:10um,
44:11five missing Whitney.
44:13We cannot be in 2024.
44:15And we are,
44:16we always hear that we want to factor in technology,
44:19right?
44:20We want to factor in technology and the call of in mid mentioned in
44:23relation to looking at computers and so forth.
44:25But my strong advice will be that every investigation should always have a
44:30hard copy and a soft copy file.
44:32Just in case you have the hard copy go missing,
44:34you have access to a soft copy.
44:36Um,
44:37and under the laws applications can be made to have the secondary evidence
44:40admitted in particular circumstances.
44:42So that I want to answer that last point.
44:44Um,
44:45that last submission with,
44:46if we speaking technology,
44:48that's the place to inject technology to ensure that there's transparency,
44:52accountability,
44:53and the public interest is not frustrated by a file go missing.
44:56Now,
44:57when files go missing immediately,
44:58I will admit and advise that an investigation should be launched immediately
45:03to ensure that there is no personal persons who may be involved in maybe
45:08trying to pervert the course of justice or misbehaving public office.
45:11It should always have an investigation and there should be a report to the
45:15authority or the authorities or in cases where high profile matters,
45:19let the public have an understanding as to where the investigation have
45:22reached and what's the outcome.
45:23The estimate,
45:25the submission in the middle,
45:26just before the crime plan,
45:27she spoke about persons who are engaging in,
45:31in activities.
45:32See the seal and so forth,
45:33right?
45:34As an officer,
45:35as an officer.
45:36So again,
45:37that,
45:38I mean,
45:39a lot has been said about that and I'm seeing where a police officer is
45:41concerned.
45:42Let me remind the police officers and by extension,
45:44the executive,
45:45there's a regulation that talks about engaging in outside activities.
45:48If you have to engage in outside activities for profit or gain,
45:52you should be seeking the commissioner police authorization to engage in
45:56activities.
45:57So I don't want to be here in a police officer engaging in a,
45:59in a trade.
46:00When the police commissioner is not aware or has not granted permission.
46:03So that is a step to try and avoid police officers engaging in activities
46:08that can bring the police service into disrepute or they themselves open to
46:12allegations.
46:13Like a private job or,
46:14you know,
46:15staying outside a restaurant or about a club lounge to work as security.
46:18They need authorization or permission from the police commissioner to do
46:21so with me.
46:22There's a very clear regulation that any officer who has to engage in
46:25outside activities for gain must seek the approval of the police
46:29commissioner,
46:30the police service.
46:31Let's be less quickly identify something.
46:33The police service supposed to be an objective,
46:36independent institution.
46:38So your engagement with other better be public or private sector must be
46:43measured.
46:44You,
46:45you must seek permission in order to,
46:46to be able to engage in those activities.
46:48So that is how strict,
46:49if you are ready,
46:50if you really want to regulate the police service,
46:52that's how strict you should be.
46:53So that is the second point that she made.
46:55And finally,
46:56in relation to crime plan,
46:57I have advocated a lot that while it's important to have a structure,
47:01while it's important to have a map,
47:03a roadmap,
47:04let's make the case in point here.
47:06Could you imagine just before Friday evening,
47:09we had a crime plan or plan in order to respond to criminal activities.
47:13How would we have 15?
47:14No,
47:15I'm just saying before Friday,
47:16Oh,
47:17before Friday,
47:18you have a general approach that you want to take in relation to looking
47:21at violent crimes and so forth.
47:23Excellent.
47:24Any organization,
47:25any person must have a roadmap.
47:26That's,
47:27that's a fundamental,
47:28but what is important?
47:29And I must,
47:30you know,
47:31acknowledge the executive in particular,
47:32that they are now immediately relooking,
47:35reviewing,
47:36and hopefully to tweak,
47:38to be able to respond,
47:40what transpired between Friday and Monday.
47:41So your roadmap or your plan,
47:44if you have 18 murders over the weekend,
47:46would not be impacted.
47:47Would you want to say,
47:48okay,
47:49well,
47:50just looking at the 18 murders,
47:51where they occur,
47:52who is in conflict,
47:53wait,
47:54wait,
47:55wait,
47:56what else is involved?
47:57So your roadmap,
47:58you may have a general roadmap,
47:59but it has to be fluid.
48:00And I always say,
48:01and I continue to even meet in city,
48:03we have to follow the criminal element,
48:06follow the criminal element.
48:08So Whitney,
48:09we can say that,
48:10okay,
48:11you were living in Caranage,
48:12but when you leave to go,
48:13not Eastern,
48:14there's no eyes on you.
48:15Well,
48:16that is what I,
48:17I mean,
48:18you're seeing all the things that I have been asking and it is almost
48:23like,
48:24I'm not throwing the TTPS under the bus.
48:26I'm not,
48:27but it is giving that they're seeking assistance from persons,
48:32most society to assist us,
48:34but they are the experts.
48:36They are the ones who are being trained.
48:38They are the ones who like the ACPU came yesterday,
48:41spoke about the setting all over the world to learn different strategies.
48:46We have mentioned the million strategies that came before us from the TTPS,
48:51but it seems like this is not working because there's a disconnect.
48:55There's a clear disconnect and each division,
48:57each district has their own issues.
49:00And yes,
49:01we need a baseline and say a foundation to understand how we will be moving.
49:04We need a plan.
49:05We need a map,
49:06some sort of direction,
49:07but it still seems like we're not sure.
49:11We still like the tail is leading the head.
49:13And it is reaching a point where everybody's trying to figure out what to do
49:18and not really taking heed of the information gathered from the people themselves
49:23who work within the same areas that they consider hotspots to gather the information
49:28and the intel to know how to move forward.
49:30And those who are speaking from yes,
49:34an educated level and sitting at a certain place and from research purposes,
49:39but living it and being in it is different from when I just do a research.
49:44And we always throw reference to international studies and not understanding what's
49:47going on here.
49:48Well,
49:49just to summarize,
49:50you know,
49:51your,
49:52your beautiful submission in terms of looking at before I get both,
49:54let's take that break.
49:55I'm going to close off.
49:56Sure.
49:57We'll be back.
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52:44And we are back. We have a call on the line.
52:46Let's take that call quickly.
52:47Hello, good evening.
52:48Yes, good evening.
52:49Good evening, sir.
52:50What I'd like to find out is this.
52:52I understand the whole thing with the law and whatnot and whatnot,
52:55but what of the person who tries to assist the police
52:58in the way things are going now,
52:59people shooting before, all kind of,
53:01what happened to the safety of an individual
53:03when you do something like that?
53:05A week ago, a week from now,
53:07two weeks from now,
53:08you come out on bail or whatever.
53:10What happened to that person
53:11who would have assisted the police?
53:14That's it.
53:15Thank you.
53:16Well, again, that caller,
53:17I mean, we have been dealing with those issues
53:19in terms of how refusal or neglect,
53:22how that could be measured
53:23in terms of how a person is concerned for their safety,
53:25and the question is, quite rightly,
53:27if they assist, what provisions are in place
53:29to ensure that they assist them?
53:30But, Whitney, I know that we have just a couple of minutes.
53:32I just want to close this afternoon again
53:34by thanking the members of the public
53:36who called in and engaged this platform this afternoon
53:38and your good self for sharing in the response to them.
53:41I want to continue to give the public,
53:44on behalf of each and every one of us,
53:46the assurance.
53:47And as I said before,
53:49I'm aware that there are very heated discussions
53:52that are ongoing to be able to respond to the situation.
53:55I want to acknowledge the executive for this.
53:57And I also want to ask the executive respectfully
54:00that sometimes we set a policy.
54:02We need to start holding the officers
54:04who are responsible for the various areas accountable.
54:07You spoke just before the break about,
54:10you know, it seems to note that there's best practices
54:13and so forth.
54:14But you see that with implementation sometimes.
54:16Implementation and holding people accountable
54:19for the particular area that they are in.
54:21I think that that is something as a TTPS.
54:23So sometimes the executive sets beautiful policies.
54:26But if it's not trickling down and implemented,
54:28you're not going to generate a level of success.
54:30So I just want to say that
54:31from an organizational perspective.
54:33But members of the public,
54:34you know, I'm a humble member
54:36of the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service.
54:38And I reach out to you to continue to support us
54:41in this fight.
54:42We live here.
54:43I always say this is our land.
54:45This is our Republic.
54:46Let us respond in a way
54:47that we know to respond within the rule of law
54:49to take back these communities.
54:50And those who are close
54:52or engaging in gang related activities,
54:54understand, look at the newspaper.
54:56It do not pay.
54:57It do not pay.
54:58Cherish your life.
54:59Enjoy your rights and privileges.
55:01So many beautiful things to do.
55:03If you have to live, you know,
55:05don't try to live beyond your means.
55:06Be humble, be kind.
55:08So I'm asking members of the public
55:10and I want to thank the criminologists,
55:12the religious leaders, the business chambers.
55:15They all have responded.
55:17That's the echo we want in Trinidad and Tobago.
55:19And I hope that we keep that intensity
55:21to ensure that we say to these criminal elements
55:23that the majority wants peace, safety, and security.
55:27And we will ensure that we get that.
55:29And to the authorities,
55:30continue to trust in the law enforcement agencies
55:32and provide us with all that we require
55:34to be able to deal with this mayhem
55:36that we are experiencing.
55:37Whitney, as usual, thank you very much.
55:39I don't want to have offended anybody over there
55:42with my deliberation this afternoon.
55:44I'm just trying to uphold the rule of law
55:45and ensure that there's a balanced position.
55:47Because I think citizens were just, you know,
55:49trying to understand it more.
55:51Yes.
55:52But more so, these are the laws
55:54that we have here in Trinidad and Tobago.
55:56And also, the officers need to understand the law
56:00because comprehension is a hell of a thing.
56:02So it can work for you and also work against you
56:06when you deal with civilians,
56:08especially law-abiding citizens,
56:10who are there trying their best to do what is right.
56:13And when caught in a situation like this,
56:15I don't know how I may have reacted.
56:17I might have done the same thing like the gentleman,
56:19and I didn't want to enter and intervene.
56:21May I just say one thing before we go?
56:22Because I don't want Jackie to go displeased this afternoon.
56:25The issue is, where police officers are concerned,
56:28there's no option to neglect or refuse.
56:32You have to do it.
56:33You have a duty to intervene.
56:36So your inaction in a particular circumstances,
56:39Whitney and Jackie,
56:41can land you in a misbehavior in public office.
56:44All right, Corporal Ali, our tenured lawyer,
56:46thank you so much for giving us the words and wisdom
56:48and the information that we need.
56:50We get ready for news coming up next at 7 o'clock.
56:52TNT always remember, be pure and just,
56:54and have God in your life no matter what.
56:56Be safe and make yourself a hot target.
56:58♪♪♪
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