- 7 hours ago
John and Jed examine why so many young people are leaving prophecy-driven and celebrity-led charismatic movements, including IHOPKC, Branhamism, and parts of the New Apostolic Reformation. They explore failed prophecy, institutional self-protection, manipulation through revival culture, and the widening gap between younger believers and older leaders shaped by decades of shifting claims.
The discussion also looks at why younger audiences often recognize contradictions faster, how college and real-world experience disrupt high-control religious systems, and why many who leave are not rejecting Christianity itself but reacting to spiritual performance, emotional pressure, and unstable authority structures. This conversation is especially relevant for anyone following current debates around IHOPKC, Bethel, prophetic ministry, Pentecostal excess, and the future of charismatic Christianity.
00:00 Introduction
02:24 Why Young People Leave Before The Scandals
05:58 Why Older Generations Stay
09:09 Faith, Rules, And The Shock Of Change
12:03 Failed Prophecy And The Younger Generation
16:25 Revival Culture Is Built To Churn Through Youth
18:30 Celebrity Christianity And The Loss Of Trust
20:36 The “Double Death” Analogy
26:05 Artificial Revival And Emotional Manipulation
28:43 Love Bombing, Grooming Patterns, And False Urgency
34:09 Why Institutions Protect Themselves
36:38 John’s Social Media Experiment On Contradictory Prophecies
41:28 Social Cohesion Above Truth
47:36 Why College Breaks The Spell
52:27 Death, Rebirth, And Rebuilding Faith
56:21 Critical Thinking And Why The Youth Notice
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The discussion also looks at why younger audiences often recognize contradictions faster, how college and real-world experience disrupt high-control religious systems, and why many who leave are not rejecting Christianity itself but reacting to spiritual performance, emotional pressure, and unstable authority structures. This conversation is especially relevant for anyone following current debates around IHOPKC, Bethel, prophetic ministry, Pentecostal excess, and the future of charismatic Christianity.
00:00 Introduction
02:24 Why Young People Leave Before The Scandals
05:58 Why Older Generations Stay
09:09 Faith, Rules, And The Shock Of Change
12:03 Failed Prophecy And The Younger Generation
16:25 Revival Culture Is Built To Churn Through Youth
18:30 Celebrity Christianity And The Loss Of Trust
20:36 The “Double Death” Analogy
26:05 Artificial Revival And Emotional Manipulation
28:43 Love Bombing, Grooming Patterns, And False Urgency
34:09 Why Institutions Protect Themselves
36:38 John’s Social Media Experiment On Contradictory Prophecies
41:28 Social Cohesion Above Truth
47:36 Why College Breaks The Spell
52:27 Death, Rebirth, And Rebuilding Faith
56:21 Critical Thinking And Why The Youth Notice
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of
00:46a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.
00:50Jed, it's good to be back.
00:51It's been a couple weeks.
00:53We've had a little bit of a break, and the topic for today, it's really interesting
01:00to me because I've had people throughout the decade that I've been doing this ask me this
01:06question, and not just the people who are leaving and are former cult members.
01:11I've had people in the cult contact me and say, what are you doing?
01:15Why are all the young people leaving the group, and whichever group that is, you know?
01:20So, you and I were talking about topics for today, and why the youth are leaving, I think
01:27that's really relevant to what we're seeing today.
01:29You see all of this mess in the New Apostolic Reformation, Charismatic Movement, some branches
01:36of Pentecostalism, and yet it seems to be the older people who stay really solid in the movement,
01:43and a lot of the younger people, I've actually had people, youth contact me, who aren't yet
01:50of age to leave, and they'll say, I'm planning on leaving.
01:53I don't believe any of this that I'm hearing, and whether it's the brand I'm called, IHOP,
01:58Casey, whatever it is, they say, what do I do?
02:00What is my strategy for leaving once I'm of an age to leave?
02:05So, I thought you and I could talk about just the youth culture and what it means to youth
02:13who are in the movement in today's world with the information highway, all of the tools
02:18that our fathers and forefathers did not have.
02:21So, very interesting topic.
02:24Yeah, I think it's an interesting way to frame it, too, because I know we've talked probably
02:30extensively, one, on how youth get sucked in to these things.
02:36But I think it's good to also recognize why many people are, many young people are leaving.
02:46And not just, this is not just something that has happened since the recent scandals.
02:55So, like, I'm going to be speaking sort of from my experience of what I saw of the people
03:01who I grew up with at IHOP primarily, but also involved with YWAM and Bethel, and how
03:09I saw many individuals who I grew up with, including myself and my sisters and those who, my best
03:18friends, everyone, why we kind of left.
03:21And it's not all the same reason, but it was happening well before the recent scandals.
03:29And I think that by identifying why people are leaving, I mean, the main thing that I'm
03:37going to be emphasizing today is that these communities are not built for longevity.
03:42I know that this is something that I have talked about before, but I'm going to reemphasize
03:47in this particular discussion, but there just isn't scenarios to grow up.
03:54There's not, you cannot grow up in these communities and find your own identity, find your own sense
04:04of security.
04:05You either mold yourself, lose a lot of sense of, not just a sense of yourself, but a sense
04:16of purpose, um, because you have to constantly, constantly be reshaping around whatever new
04:24prophecy, whatever new, uh, agenda, the organization is wrapping itself around.
04:34Um, if you can't be fluid with that, move on to the next, forget the old prophecy, move
04:42to the next prophecy, forget what we were doing yesterday and start adapting to what we're going
04:47to be doing today.
04:48Um, one that, I mean, just at its very basic level, people get ousted, not, I shouldn't say
04:56ousted in that people themselves feel like they have to, um, either give up parts of themselves
05:08or they have to leave, uh, the community in general.
05:10So it's not just like, it's not just young adults like me who are criticizing the community.
05:19I mean, there's a lot of young, uh, I know a lot of people who grew up with me who
05:24would
05:24absolutely still be a hundred percent, um, well, one, they would still consider, consider
05:30themselves charismatic Christians.
05:33They can still, uh, hold a lot of the core beliefs that we were sort of given as young
05:41adults and children.
05:42Um, but yet they are completely isolated and, and distant from the community as well, especially
05:49the IHOP community, because there's just no place for them.
05:53There's no way to actually grow in those communities.
05:57And I think that's just it.
05:59That a lot of the older generation, I know that in talking with some of the former members
06:05of different groups, their, their parents were much like mine.
06:09There was this mindset, which is neither good nor bad.
06:13It was just the culture that if you found something good, it was, um, to change it was to change
06:21away from the good.
06:22And so you have people who are set in their ways, especially the grandparents.
06:26So my, like my grandparents were very set in their ways and that's not necessarily a
06:31bad thing.
06:31That was just the culture in the modern world.
06:34Things are changing rapidly.
06:36I mean, I, I just look back at the last two years, how much has changed in the last two
06:41years, things that, um, well, if you go back five years, look at the fast food industry,
06:46fast food has changed so much that it's almost, it's almost as cheap to eat in a dine-in
06:52restaurant than it is to eat in a fast food restaurant because the cost and everything
06:56has changed so much.
06:57And this would have never been, you know, back in my father's day or his, you know, on the
07:02grandparents day, things are changing so rapidly.
07:05And the youth are trained to adapt to the change, especially if you're in school, right?
07:11So whenever you're in a movement such as IHOPKC, such as the brand and religion I came out
07:19of, what happens is really odd because the movement itself is changing, but the adults
07:26fail to see it sometimes.
07:27And so as, as it shifts and changes, the adults who have that mindset, they began to just kind
07:35of go with the change, not recognizing that it is changing and things drastically change,
07:42but slowly over time, the youth actually picks up on it.
07:46An example of this, I look back at some of the older pictures of the group that I came
07:51out of and the, the dress code was much more forgiving than it is today.
07:58The women could have skirts right up to the knees and they were wearing shirts with no sleeves,
08:04et cetera.
08:05Even in the Branham family, in the Branham family today, they actually published a few
08:10years ago, they published a picture of what the holy female looks like.
08:15And she's got to have the skirt all the way down to cover the ankles because if, if you're
08:20a man and you look at the ankles, you're sinning.
08:22Well, that wrap, that slowly changed gradually over time.
08:25And I remember hearing sermons about showing the ankles and they called them scandal skirts,
08:30which was a little bit odd because I don't see, I don't see the ankle as scandalous, but
08:35it changed so gradually over time that the adults aren't picking up on it.
08:39The youth at that time, I wasn't really youth.
08:42I was in my twenties, but I could see the change was happening because I was more adapt to the
08:47change.
08:48So long story short, if you're in one of these groups, if you're in the older generation,
08:54you're not recognizing the change.
08:55You're just kind of thinking, this is the way it's always been, this is the way it will
08:59always be.
09:00And the youth instead are picking up and saying, wait a minute, why are we changing things?
09:05I thought the other way that we used to be, I thought that was the godly way.
09:09Well, and I mean, it's the whole notion of childlike faith.
09:14Children believe wholeheartedly the things that they are taught and they are given.
09:20So, I mean, when you devote yourself entirely to these, the analogy of the wardrobe, I think
09:29is, or the example of the way that the wardrobe has changed is a good example because if you
09:35were young and you were thinking that there is a lot of biblical and spiritual reasoning
09:44behind whatever rules are being followed, and the reason you follow this is because you kind
09:52of unquestioningly say, yeah, this makes sense.
09:55I accept and adapt to the rule that has been given to me.
10:00So, when that rule changes, because you believed so fervently in the rule or whatever principle,
10:11if it changes, those who are truly devout and truly believe and have faith in those rules,
10:17that's going to be way more jarring.
10:19I know I've given this analogy before, but I talked about if I get a message from my dad
10:31and my sisters do as well, when I'm, say I'm young again, and my dad's out of town and
10:37he says, hey, I'm going to take you guys on a trip, pack up your things, meet me at the
10:42bus station, I'm going to pick you up in a day, and we're going to go and go on this
10:47long
10:47trip.
10:49Well, if I and my sisters have a different level of, I'll just use the word faith, if
10:57we have a different level of faith in my dad and whether he will come back and pick us up
11:02and take us on that trip, our behavior is going to be different.
11:07Maybe my older sister who's seen this before says, eh, I don't know if it's really going
11:12to happen, so she doesn't really fully pack her bags.
11:14Um, but let's say that I'm very fervently believe it, I'm excited for it, I fully pack
11:21my bags, I'm sitting there at the bus station, ready to go, an hour goes by, my dad's not
11:27there, two hours go by, my dad's not there.
11:30Those who have the least amount of faith or hope in the promise that was given will be
11:40able to, ironically, be able to adapt the best because they will say, eh, I guess it
11:45didn't come.
11:47Like, well, we'll get them next time and just go back home.
11:52I, you know, my older sister who didn't pack anything says, eh, I didn't think it might
11:56happen.
11:57I'll wait for the next time, he says.
11:59And there is, I do think that there's, I think that largely the people who are at IHOP
12:07who are older have kind of become that person.
12:11I don't know why I'm picking on my older sister in this example, but, um, they, people
12:18who have seen it before are still, for some reason in the community, recognize that it's
12:27going to change and don't put a whole lot of hope or faith in the, or have a lot of
12:34conviction
12:34in those rules because they understand it's fluid, it's going to change.
12:39It doesn't really mean anything.
12:41These prophecies about, you know, the sky splitting open and solar flares that are going to disrupt
12:48the entire, um, planet ecosystem in 2015, the, that, I mean, these are literal prophecies
12:56that were given during my childhood about something that was going to happen in 2015.
13:02You know, for the, for the adults who were there and had been a part of IHOP for a long
13:11period of time, who are hearing those prophecies about 2015, you know, 2015 comes and goes and
13:20it doesn't matter to them because the prophecies about 1991 never happened to them.
13:25The prophecies about 1997 never happened to them.
13:29The prophecies that about 1985, I, these are all specific dates that are linked to different
13:35prophecies that I now know about in the past.
13:37I wasn't old enough to, to see the failure of prophecy, um, in those periods of time, but
13:44they all, they all saw those failures.
13:47And for some reason they said it doesn't matter.
13:51And they continued to stick with the, um, community, not because of faith in the community, but because
14:01of something different, because of need, because of identity, because of exploitation.
14:08Maybe they were getting things out of it.
14:10I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why older, uh, individuals stay, but for the
14:16young adults, the ones who actually believe, especially children who have faith, they are
14:22left at the bus stop, they are left waiting, staring, looking at their watch saying, he's
14:28going to come any minute.
14:29Now he's going to come, he's going to pick us up and we're going to go on our trip.
14:33And even without the devastation that is the sexual exploitation and all of the, the depravity
14:46that has been made more clear that was going on, um, behind the scenes at IHOP, even without
14:53that whole scandal, you still have a wake of young adults who are left waiting for the
15:03bus, waiting for their father to show up and take them on trip, waiting for something that
15:08they thought was going to happen, building their entire worldview, their understanding
15:16of themselves, making decisions about their lives.
15:20I mean, this happened to me, I would have a hundred percent had a different career aspirations
15:26and had different, um, you know, gone to, could have gone to a real college when I got out
15:34of high school, had I been, been thinking different, but, which I don't want to say as like a woe
15:40is me thing, but I mean, it really does affect the way I built my world around beliefs.
15:50That just, even the people within the community were not building their, their, uh, uh, perspective
16:01and worldview around those beliefs because they were never, ever said with a degree of
16:07urgency, like they were, uh, or integrity.
16:11Like it was always a flash in the pan.
16:17Um, and so I think that on the very base level, um, you have people leaving in mass.
16:28I mean, this is why these, these communities are structured to churn out young adults.
16:35So it's, let's bring in the new group and replace the old group because there's so many
16:41people who are leaving that community.
16:44That's why, like, if I went to IHOP and I looked around, I wouldn't recognize most individuals.
16:51I mean, even they're, even they're bored now, I, I know probably two or three people and
17:00they were the older, you know, the Ed Hacketts who were there from the beginning and, and
17:04we're giving prophecies back then.
17:07And I'm sure giving prophecies now, like there's, there's people who I grew up with that were
17:11like parents of my, um, you know, friends, my friend's parents.
17:17Um, but all of my friends are gone.
17:19I mean, no one, not a single person that I know who I grew up with is still in, uh,
17:27the
17:27International House of Prayer, which take a moment to think about that.
17:29Like that's wild.
17:31I know plenty of people who live in Kansas city.
17:34I know plenty of people who are still charismatic Christians who live in Kansas city.
17:38I don't, you know, a single person in my age range who is still going to the International
17:44House of Prayer right now.
17:45Some of that also is because of the recent scandal, but even, uh, even before the scandal,
17:51I think that there was probably two or three, um, friends of mine, um, or I guess probably
17:57more former friends of mine who I had grown up with, um, who were still at the International
18:02House of Prayer because it's just not made.
18:05It's not a church.
18:06It's not made to grow up in.
18:08It's not made to be a home.
18:10It's not made to be a spiritual, um, a place of growth.
18:15It is revival.
18:18It is get people excited, get people, uh, radicalized for a summer, take their money and move on.
18:29You know, like I've said, the, um, the people contacting me aren't always people who've
18:35left the groups, but interestingly, I also get people who were never in the groups and
18:40they're saying things like, what you're doing, John, you're helping people out of the, out
18:46of the cults, but I'm watching a lot of them leave God altogether, become atheist.
18:51And the people are walking away from Christianity because of the exposure of some of the groups.
18:57And it's, you know, it's, it's a double-edged sword.
19:01Yes, there are people who are doing this.
19:03I do know a lot of people who leave and they remain Christian.
19:06And as I've mentioned on the podcast a few times, when people leave and they go down the
19:12pathway of re-examining their faith, usually they're breaking down a false God.
19:17They're not breaking down the God of the Bible.
19:21And really, it comes down to this.
19:23Young people, whenever they're leaving, they're not walking away because Christianity is asking
19:27too much of them or because they're having fault with that.
19:30A lot of, a lot of the cases, they're walking away because the charismatic celebrity culture
19:36is asking them to believe in the celebrity.
19:41And while a lot of the adults may have become accustomed to shutting down critical
19:47thinking, the youth are not like this.
19:50They're developing their critical thinking skills, especially those who are going to school
19:54and they're being taught to critically think.
19:56So whenever they see somebody on the platform that just doesn't look real to them, they're
20:02going to start thinking, is this person being truthful with me?
20:05And that's whenever it all begins to break down.
20:08In fact, some of the people who've contacted me who are waiting to become of age to leave
20:14their group, once they leave the household, that's one of the things that they said.
20:19I can see right through this person.
20:20This person is not telling the truth.
20:23That's how they'll phrase it.
20:25But it comes down to that.
20:27It's not that they're leaving Christianity because they're being asked to believe the
20:31Christian values.
20:32They're being asked to believe so many things that are on top of Christianity.
20:35I think that's an excellent point.
20:38And it reminds me of trying to remember who the author is.
20:45I don't know.
20:47Maybe it'll come to me while I'm talking, but there was a author who wrote about the concept
20:54of what he he labeled double death.
20:57Um, and this was in the context of, um, like environmental, uh, health and, and the health
21:06of ecosystems.
21:07Um, so I remember reading this back in when I was getting my master's degree and, um, I
21:13thought it was a fascinating concept because, um, the specific sample that was, that he gave,
21:19um, was in India, um, you have, uh, predominantly a Hindu nation and, and many people have, uh, a
21:33reverence for cows in, um, India, but they still use cow for cows for dairy, um, and whatnot.
21:41There isn't, um, there isn't all, uh, it is, there is not beef in India.
21:49Like you don't have cows for meats, but you have them for other, um, purposes and whatnot.
21:54And so cows are sort of revered.
21:57There's a lot of cows that if you're in India and you're walking around, there might just
22:01be cows walking down the streets there and whatnot.
22:04Um, and the long and short of it is, is that in India, they started giving, um, cows, various,
22:12um, types of antibiotics to help them.
22:16There was a lot of cows that were getting sick and they were dying.
22:19Um, and causing a lot of, um, street pollution and, and because the, uh, because they would
22:28die and, um, their bodies rotten in the streets and everything.
22:33And, um, it also, they were dying young.
22:36Um, and so they're, to sort of elongate their lives and, and to give them, um, to be able
22:42to use them to produce more dairy and everything.
22:46Um, there's a lot of reasons to sort of give them these antibiotics.
22:49But the thing is, is that these antibiotics that would be given to the cows were deadly to the
23:00species, the primary species of vultures, um, that would, uh, usually, uh, consume the dead
23:11animal that was so like when a cow dies, if it has been, uh, injected with a bunch of these
23:18antibiotics, the vultures who normally would, um, uh, Oh, what's it scavenge on, on the cow's
23:28bodies were doing so, but then they were dying too, because they were there.
23:34Uh, while cows could process this, these antibiotics, these vultures could not.
23:39So there was this sort of very quick max extinction of all of these, this very specific, uh, species
23:46of vultures that was really important to the ecosystem in India.
23:51Um, because again, when a cow dies, you know, it could often happen in the street and then
23:56you have a ginormous rotting dead corpse in the street.
24:01And unless you have scavengers that are able to quickly pick that up, you know, there's a
24:07lot that needs to be done to, um, make it sanitary and keep it clean.
24:14Um, so anyway, all that, the long short of it is, is by trying to elongate the life cycle of
24:25these
24:25cows, there was a disruption to the ecosystem that resulted into what this individual called double
24:34death, where the, the death that would have normally been a part of a cycle of life where the cow
24:47dies,
24:48it is eaten by the vultures and there's this, this sort of, um, symbiotic nature of the, the,
24:55the ecosystem now, because we elongated that life through artificial means and using this
25:01particular, um, uh, antibiotic is now creating, not only leading to the death of the, I mean,
25:09the cows die eventually anyway.
25:11And then now the vultures are dying and now it's a whole lot of different animals are dying because
25:17there are, um, large, uh, cows that are, are rotting on the streets and causing all sorts of,
25:25um, uh, polluting the water systems and everything like that.
25:30And so, uh, I know that's a very visceral image, but I've always thought about that because I think
25:36that just philosophically, I think that that's something that we do as humans by trying to control
25:43and artificially elongate the life of something, we lead to this process of double death.
25:52And very specifically what I think the application is, is when you tell people or when you build a
26:06community that is based off of revival philosophy and supernatural gifts and, um, prophecies and
26:18healings that are largely artificially stimulated, what happens is that you poison the ecosystem because
26:30sure, you get, you get big conferences, you get big one thing conferences, you get a bunch of
26:3816, 17, 18 year olds weeping on the floor, devoting their lives to Jesus seems like a good thing,
26:47right? When we have this huge one thing conference and tens of thousands of young adults are professing
26:55their undying loyalty and faith in Jesus Christ, um, that seems like a good thing, but it's,
27:03but it's completely artificial because it is intentionally and manipulatively
27:12stirring up the emotions of young individuals to make them believe the world is not the way that
27:19it is, that we can speak and suddenly people are healed, that we can in an instance cleanse
27:29ourself of addiction, um, that we can do all of these things that I understand it would be great if
27:35that happened, but that's not how it happens. Like, um, I just was, I just was talking with someone who
27:41is
27:41still in the Bethel world and we were talking about my father and she was like, you need to send
27:47him to this
27:48deliverance, uh, ministry where I've seen people go there and their addiction is healed in an instant. And I know
27:57that
27:57she meant well, but I, I had to have a very serious conversation with her and I was like,
28:03my father has a history of addiction that stretches back to before I was born.
28:09This is not healed in an instant. It can't be. That's not, that's not even the way it should be.
28:14This is something that like you need to put effort into. It's going to take years and then years after
28:21that. And then years to continue up with it like this to change and adapt in our life. It takes
28:28effort. It takes commitment. It takes integrity. It takes honesty. And the IHOP and Bethel culture,
28:38um, and just the new apostolic reformation culture in general looks to provide shortcuts to all of those
28:47different things. It's similar to it. If you started dating someone and if I, let's say I was
28:56dating someone and they're young and haven't dated a whole lot before. And I just start love bobbing
29:04them. I, every single day I send them information about how much I care about them, how they're the,
29:09the person I've always been waiting for in the moment. Like this is something this, and this is,
29:15this is, I'm giving this example because this is explicitly what happens too, of what these
29:21leaders, um, in these religious communities were doing with young, like this is the process of
29:28grooming too. So it's not a coincidence, um, that this, this overlaps, but it's this idea. If you,
29:34if you, you can manipulate, especially young people by making it seem like they are suddenly in a
29:44world that is completely magical and completely different that, um, in this room, like in a
29:50romantic sense that they are, um, with someone who loves them completely unconditionally, only has
29:58eyes for them is totally and wholly infatuated with them. And I mean, the truth is, is that
30:07that's not how it works. And like nine times out of 10, the people who are saying that are just
30:14manufacturing these things. And in two years, they're going to be saying the same thing to an
30:19entirely different young person. It's going to be that, that is going to be their new fixation of
30:25all their desires. But when you're young and you have someone love bombing you and you've never
30:30experienced it before, you don't know that it's going to suddenly disappear after two months or
30:36two years or whatever it is. And so you become infatuated with that person who is infatuated with
30:45you and you lose yourself to them. And I think that's exactly the same thing. Exactly. Like the,
30:52it's the same exact playbook as what's happening with these churches, where it says, come give
30:58everything that you have, whether it's time, whether it's money, whether it's energy, whether
31:04it's emotion, devotion, whatever it is, give everything that you have, sacrifice it on the
31:10altar here, because you will be able to speak in tongues. You will be able to see and dream visions.
31:16And look, there is something coming in two, three years. The end of the world is right on our
31:22fingertips. Look at all the things that are going on in Israel. I mean, it must be the case,
31:27you know, and there's this prophecy and, oh, have you ever heard this thing that Bob Jones prophesied?
31:33He prophesied exactly what's happening today. And you don't know better because you haven't
31:40gone in depth into, you weren't there when Bob Jones was prophesying something completely different.
31:46You weren't there when Bob Jones was prophesying, you know, that Mike Bickle's brother was going to
31:54walk and it was going to be healed again. And then he died. Like you haven't been there
32:00to see the failure of prophecy. And so in that moment, just like the young adult who is being
32:07love bombed by an older manipulative groomer, they think they are in a world completely of their own
32:14in this magical, fanciful world in which they are at the very pinnacle of either some sort of divine
32:23love or purpose. And that is intoxicating. It's something that you would want to give everything
32:34over. Who cares about doing homework? Who cares about prepping for college? Who cares about this or that?
32:43Who cares about even, you know, having friendships or relationships with the people my age? They're
32:49not exciting. They're not, you know, as infatuating as this person who is love bombing me or as this
32:57church that is giving me all of these purposes. So of course, people dedicate themselves to this.
33:04And then of course, within literally months to maybe years, they get burnt and they are suddenly
33:12at this place where they now realize, oh my goodness, it was all a lie. We're, we're now telling
33:19stories to different people about different things, about different prophecies, about prophecies that
33:25Bob Jones had that I never heard. And it was never told to me. And the one that he did
33:32say,
33:32everyone seemed to forgotten, have forgotten, or in the love bombing situation, this person who used
33:38to have all this affection and eyes towards me, suddenly, they seem to be infatuated with somebody
33:44else. Suddenly, they're being coercive and telling you it's my fault that they don't have this affection
33:51for me. I mean, I mean, yeah, it is such a toxic and heartbreaking cycle that is so clear to
34:13see from
34:14anybody who's been there before on the outside, right? Not, not clear to see when you're young on the
34:19inside. But every time I look up, every time I still follow enough where I'll get on my feed,
34:32whether Facebook or on Twitter or whatever, I will get the International House of Prayer videos show up.
34:40And I just had one yesterday show up. And again, it was, it was, well, I can't remember her name,
34:47Taylor Heba, but the, one of the new leaders of IHOP. And she was just talking about how not to
34:58be
34:58offended and don't look back and continue, like forgive and move forward. And it's just like, oh my
35:04goodness, this is such a scam. It is such a scam. They're running it that every single time it's,
35:11they need their new group of children to come and be infatuated. And they can't do that.
35:18If too many people are talking about the way that children were burned in the past. So they need to
35:25move forward and they need to have everybody shut up about all of the terrible things that happened
35:30because they cannot manipulate and groom this new batch of children unless everyone starts
35:36moving forward. It's just, it's honestly, it's sick. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement
35:42started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic
35:49and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on
35:55William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the
36:01website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
36:08John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
36:14You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
36:20If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
36:26button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that
36:32you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for
36:38your support. I was thinking as you were talking about an experiment that I did when I first began
36:44all of the website, blog, etc. It was before I had the podcast. I was still trying to wrap my
36:53brain
36:53around how people could believe something that wasn't true, but take it a step further to defend
37:00something that obviously wasn't true. How can you do this? And the funny part about that story was,
37:06at the same time I was trying to figure that out, I was also deep into watching The Walking Dead.
37:11And so watching all these, these zombies, it was hard not to, you know, find a correlation between
37:19the two. But anyway, long story short, I, I was big into social media at that point in time,
37:27because I was trying to build all of the platform that I have now. So I was publishing to different
37:32social media platforms. And I had a lot of test accounts because I would build a page and I'd have
37:38it automate posting to the page and I have a test account posting. And one time I watched somebody
37:44reply to one of my test posts. And I knew it would be a little bit wrong for me to
37:50engage them with
37:51the fake profile. But what I did instead, which is kind of in the gray area of whether it's ethical,
37:57I had two test accounts that instead of talking to the person that responded to them,
38:02these two test accounts started talking to each other. So I would post on one side,
38:07and then I would post on the other side. And I had just a normal conversation. And that,
38:12that really, it developed into that's how I kept using my test accounts is really to develop my
38:19platform. But I get to have some fun with it. Because like you said, people who are in this
38:26movement, and they're watching the prophecies change over time, they always stick with the latest
38:31version. Let's ignore all of the previous versions. Well, I had one test account, and I was out of
38:36the Branham cult. I had one test account talking about Branham and said, praise God, Branham prophesied
38:41yada, yada, yada. And I'll just, for sake of people who doesn't, who don't know Branham's prophecies,
38:47I'll just say, praise God, he prophesied that the sky will be blue one day. And today over the Ohio
38:54Valley, it's gray. And the other guy, the other test account started saying, praise God, he did say
39:01that, but he also said, and then said this other thing. So there's variations of each prophecy as
39:07history went on. And as time went on through this conversation, I literally was going, and this was
39:13actual prophecies, actual details, I was actually giving quotes where he would say one thing, then he
39:19would say the opposite, then he would say something out in left field, something out in right field,
39:24and over time, it would just be forgotten completely. And what I was watching happen was
39:30weird. The, and you could kind of tell the age just by reading the post and looking at the profile
39:36pictures, some of the older people who were engaging in that conversation between my two test accounts,
39:42they were agreeing with both sides, as though both sides, even though they're polar opposite,
39:48they believe both sides to be true. Praise God, yes. Praise God, yes, on this other thing.
39:53But the younger crowd, they're looking at it scratching their head. And I actually started
39:57getting messages into the test account box. Wait a minute, you mean he said this, and he also said
40:02the opposite? So there's this thing, and I haven't really come to a conclusion if it's just simply due to
40:10the mind control or due to the fact of the age and the critical thinking of today. The older crowd
40:16will accept two false positives in opposite directions, two different poles. I had one guy
40:23tell me that I was explaining Branham's two birth years that he gave. One was bound to his Elijah
40:30ministry, one was bound to his Moses ministry, and you can't be born two different years. So I was
40:36explaining to him, this is impossible. And he says, I don't understand it, brother, but praise God,
40:40I believe it anyway. And I'm like, well, what do you believe, man? You believe the guy was born in
40:45two
40:45different years? The older crowd can do this. And I've come to the conclusion that, I don't
40:52understand it, but I've come to the conclusion that over time, the effect that it has on your mental
40:57capacity to engage critical thinking is just completely gone. So the older you get, the longer
41:03you're in one of the groups, you'll get to the point where you're like the walking dead, you're
41:08just walking around, whatever the leader says goes, I'm going to believe it, praise God, I believe it
41:13anyway. But the younger crowd is not like this. They're, they're a little bit more in tune with
41:18reality. And I think that's the difference. You've got the walking dead side, which is all the fantasy
41:24world. And then you've got the youth who are trying to find what is reality.
41:28Yeah. You have a, a group that is the only real virtue of the group insofar as like the only
41:42thing
41:42that you, that it fosters is social cohesion and social cohesion in accordance to a very specific
41:53social hierarchy of these people are at the top. And so you, the only real quality that you can have
42:03that will allow you to survive and thrive in this community is being able to, to yes. And like, it's
42:12a, like an improv comedy group, you know, where someone says, Mike Pickles says this, you say, yes.
42:19And let me add my two thoughts on this. And regardless, whatever it is, you always, you never
42:27break the rule of yes and. And I remember now so many different interactions that I had growing up
42:34where we really rewarded the yes anders and, uh, made them look all, every single character virtue
42:47that I grew up with was warped by yes anders. And so I used to think what it meant to
42:59be
43:00a good, um, thinker just, or a good, um, maybe I should be more specific than thinker, but a good
43:10investigator, a good, I, I'm, I'm not finding the right word for this, but someone who is dreaming
43:21planning is to be like, okay, that's great. And like, I thought there was a sense of epistemic
43:30humility, I suppose, to the people who are like, Hmm, this seems confusing to me, but I just,
43:38I trust God. And that was always what it was framed as is even when you have questions,
43:46uh, you thought this prophecy was going to happen. You were there sitting at the, at the bus station.
43:52And despite your father telling you that he was going to come and show up right at that period of
43:58time, you weren't there, but you don't get offended. And it was, and that's the, that's the frame.
44:05You put it as a good virtue thing as the person who is saying, okay, who is giving up on
44:13their
44:13convictions, who is not demonstrating faith, who is not demonstrating conviction, who is not
44:20demonstrating intelligence, who is not demonstrating, um, uh, curiosity, who is,
44:28only demonstrating sort of this virtue of go with the flow, laissez faire, accept that, which your
44:36community is saying, and then put on, uh, uh, a smiling face to, to help keep that social cohesion.
44:46I mean, that was the only real virtue that was celebrated in our community. And I, again,
44:56I, everything, my understanding of humility, my understanding of patience, my understanding of,
45:02of wisdom, maybe wisdom is the right word that I was looking for. I thought it wise to say,
45:11okay, this is bigger than me. I will, I thought this one thing, but instead it isn't, doesn't seem
45:18to be true. And so I shall adapt. And that seemed to the, the, be the wise answer to the
45:25difficult
45:25questions was, I don't know. I'll let God take over. That's not wisdom. That doesn't benefit you
45:33in any respect. Does it, it's how you do some of the worst, most horrible things you could ever
45:40imagine while still thinking that you're a good person is by having no backbone and no ability to
45:47discern and no conviction to both, you know, truth and to character, um, and no honesty, integrity.
46:00That is not wisdom, but that was what was modeled for me as the sort of pinnacle of wisdom. And
46:08those
46:09who were demonstrating actual wisdom, those were demonstrating actual conviction were seen as
46:16disruptors, right? Because it does. When, when, when you have a community that is going against
46:24just basic truth going against, when you have a deceptive, dishonest, um,
46:34exploitive community, the people who are demonstrative virtues in those communities will,
46:40will strain the social cohesion, will, will cut the sort of ties that are keep bonding people
46:49together. And that became, Ooh, that person is wrong. And so it, when I grew up, when I thought
46:57people left the church, I thought they left the church and by church, I mean, actually just our
47:04cool community, but there was no difference to me at that time. I thought everyone, and if someone
47:13decided that they were going to reject, um, I hopped philosophy and go join, let's say a different
47:23Methodist church or God forbid, a Catholic church that in my, in my head, they had left, they were no
47:31longer practicing Christians. Um, and so the only reason why, especially young adults left the, the
47:42church was because of sin. That was the only way that I could kind of, um, envision it. Um, and
47:50so going
47:51back to the very subject of this video, why do people leave? Well, we have talked extensively. It is not
47:58about sin, but because they frame it because the only real virtue in the community that is reaffirmed
48:04consistently is social cohesion. Anybody who was disrupting that social cohesion was viewed as
48:13vicious, was viewed as someone who was sinning, was doing something that was depraved. And usually then
48:22rumors would spark about sexual immorality or sexual orientation, or they, um,
48:31pride, they, you know, they got, went off to college and they think they know everything, which
48:36the reason why this is the last thought I'll have here, because I've just been going like I normally do,
48:42but
48:43the reason why so many young adults who are in similar tight knit cult communities, or even just
48:56extending it, even just like really tight conservative Christian communities, the reason why you see them
49:04go to college and suddenly they come back and they believe everything is different. I mean, there's this
49:10belief that, that colleges are this place where indoctrination happens. The hard truth of it is,
49:19is, I mean, of course there's, there's some, you know, indoctrination at every level of different
49:25places, but largely when people go to college, the, the, the, the principles and truths that they have been
49:35indoctrinated with as young adults are incompatible with the community they suddenly arrive at.
49:43If I went with my IHOP eschatology and my IHOP worldview to a normal, you know, the University of
49:53Missouri, Kansas City to get an English degree, which I did.
50:03My childhood and my worldview is totally incompatible with the world that I'm living in. I'm learning
50:10about things that undeniably happened that our community has just chosen to look over. I'm
50:22learning about principles of psychology that again, our community has been using to exploit people.
50:30And you're really like, you get terms to realize that, oh, but a lot of the things that we were
50:35doing were messed up. You know, if you go to medical school, you realize, oh, you can't just like the,
50:42the straightening the feet isn't actually a real thing. Like, oh, that's just a, uh, a trick. You
50:50know, you experience stuff, which realizes, oh, a lot of things that I was taught were just straight up
50:59lies. And in doing so, you have to leave your community. And this is the back to that notion of
51:06double death because so much of the community is built around lies and deception.
51:17Naturally, whenever you grow up, you're going to learn the things that your parents believed
51:21and things that your, your community taught you is not exactly the way that the world is. And
51:26you're going to have to come to terms with that. And some of it's going to be right. Some of
51:29it's
51:29going to be wrong. I mean, that happens regardless. No community is absolved of like, there is that
51:35sort of growing pains of learning. But if there is this sort of natural death that is allowed,
51:41where you allow children to think for themselves and grow up and figure out some of this on their
51:46own and come back and bring their own convictions and hold on to their principles, then there's
51:54an opportunity for rebirth. There's an opportunity for the young adult to hold on to the same core
52:01convictions, the same, you know, belief in Christianity that they were taught when they
52:08were young, because it's their own now. And now it's even greater because like the, the,
52:13the religion of their parents died in some respects, and now it, their own religion is reborn and it can
52:21be beautiful. And I think that it's actually the necessary process of everyone's faith journey is to
52:27have this sort of natural, um, death and rebirth. Uh, I mean, to be a Christian is called to be
52:35reborn.
52:36Like that's the idea of this sense of like dying, the old self dying and something new coming out.
52:42And when there are these unnatural, coercive, artificial, um, stimulants that are placed within
52:52the child so that they are radical Christians at 12 years old, so that they are unquestioning of
53:01every little detail of every little thing that you teach them, the death looks a lot more tragic and a
53:08lot, um, there isn't this sort of natural cycle of rebirth because there's not a whole lot of pieces
53:14to bring back up. Like when I let go of my version of Christianity, there wasn't a whole lot of
53:24things
53:24for me to look back on and be like, I would like this to rise up out of the ashes
53:29because so much of
53:31it was entirely artificial, um, or was extremely coercive or manipulative. And so there wasn't a whole
53:39lot of natural good virtues to find. So why not go somewhere else? Why not see what Buddhism has to
53:47offer? Why not say religion is done altogether? Because the, the grounds that it was built on was
53:54so poisoned that you have to go find a new field to plant and grow and everything. So I, I,
54:03nothing
54:05gets me more irritated. Well, this is one of the things that gets me the most irritated when people
54:13talk about young adults going to college and losing their faith or, or especially when that,
54:22within the context of, of the, um, latter rain movement, the new apostolic reformation kind of
54:30communities makes me so furious because it's like, you did this. This isn't the world that you built.
54:35This is the fruit of the world that you built. You can blame the children all you want. You can
54:40blame the young adults and say that this generation is just not devote to God, but this is the product
54:48of the world that you, um, built. This is the, the, the seeds that you sow. This is the, the,
54:55the, you chose to, to make it artificial. You chose to allow prophets who are clearly just fabricating
55:04a bunch of stuff to be elevated points of, of authority within the community. You chose to look
55:11the other way when individuals were fabricating testimonies and people like, uh, uh, what's his name?
55:19Um, Sean White, um, or Todd White, um, were doing corny magic show tricks of trying to keep the legs
55:32even like this is the, if you do things like that, if you allow this, then the children aren't going
55:38to
55:38leave. Like the, they have to, they have to find a way where they can develop as, as human beings.
55:45And,
55:45and you are creating a soil that is completely inhospitable to any real virtue, any real development
55:58other than this very specific archetype of someone who is only caring about social cohesion. That's the
56:06only, the only trees that will, will, will, um, bloom in that, uh, field are, are those who
56:16only care about social cohesion and, um, it's tragic. Yeah. And the only thing that I would add to that,
56:24using the lengthening legs as the example, when you do something like this, that is pretty obvious
56:30to a young person that this is, this might be a stage trick. They're going to think through that.
56:35They're going to think, well, if I were up there and I wanted to fool the crowd, how would I
56:39do this?
56:40They don't immediately go to, this is a supernatural thing they're doing because why are they doing the
56:44stage trick anyway? Right? But it goes a little bit beyond that in that young people, the youth will
56:52often notice the institutional self-protection. So if you've got a guy that's doing this and then
56:57you've got another leader who's trying to suppress the questions before they're asked,
57:02the youth can pick up on this and they're, they're in tune, man. They know,
57:05they know whenever they're being played because especially those in school, they've been played
57:10by some of their peers in school. Right? So they pick up on it and they're like, well,
57:15why are the adults acting like kids and not the good kids in my school? They're acting like the bad
57:20ones. So the youth pick up on this and it turns into this weird mess that I, uh, you know,
57:27when,
57:27when I was thinking through how are we going to address this conversation? Why are the youth leaving?
57:33The big, the big takeaway that sums it all up for me is this, the youth can critically think. They
57:40have not yet suppressed their critical thinking skills and the adults often have. So that's really,
57:46for me, I think that's the difference. But, um, anyway, there's so, so much more we talk about.
57:52This is crazy interesting. And I, I get, I can't tell you how many emails from people asking me,
57:57why are all the kids leaving? Not just for the Branham group, but for the different groups.
58:02And hopefully this answers it for someone. Hopefully so.
58:07Awesome. Well, thank you for doing this. Yeah. Anytime. Thanks, John.
58:10Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
58:13You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic
58:18reformation, you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon,
58:24Kindle and audible.
58:51And I'll see you next time.
58:58Bye.
58:59Bye.
59:02Bye.
59:03Bye.
59:05Bye.
59:05Bye.
59:09Bye.
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