- 2 days ago
Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, who's considered close to President Donald Trump, has called for dumping Pakistan as mediator in the US-Iran talks, citing reports that Islamabad had allowed Iran to use their airbases to park military aircraft.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savant.
00:05Pakistan's perfidy, Pakistan's doublespeak has been called out once again.
00:11Pakistan's dubious actions during the U.S.-Iran war this time have been called out by a Republican senator.
00:18Incidentally, the senator who's considered very close to U.S. President Donald Trump.
00:23Senator Lindsey Graham at a hearing hit out at Pakistan after reports indicated that several Iranian aircraft including an ELINT
00:33aircraft, an electronic intelligence aircraft, a C-130 Hercules or in this instance an RC-130 Hercules was parked at
00:45the Noor Khan airbase in Ravalpindi.
00:47India today has exclusively accessed satellite images and we'll show you those images in just a moment.
00:54Noor Khan airbase incidentally is the main Pakistan command and control center that was bombed by the Indian armed forces
01:05during Operation Sindhur in May 2025.
01:08So, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham during a hearing in a conversation with U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hexit and
01:16U.S. Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff said, and I quote,
01:20I don't trust Pakistan as far as I can throw them if they actually do have Iranian aircraft parked in
01:29Pakistan bases to protect Iranian military assets, then that tells me we should be looking maybe for somebody else to
01:39mediate.
01:39No wonder this damn thing is going nowhere, unquote.
01:46He then went on to call out Pakistan's double speak asking if the mediator is permitting reconnaissance aircraft of Iran
01:53at its airbase.
01:55Is that consistent with being a fair mediator?
02:00He then went on to say that the U.S. should be looking at someone else to mediate if this
02:07is the true face of Pakistan or words to that effect because the satellite images that we are about to
02:12show you will indicate, watch that, that desert colored C-130 that suspected Iranian aircraft at a Pakistani airbase.
02:22India today has accessed satellite images that show this desert colored C-130 aircraft parked at Noor Khan.
02:32Incidentally, in just a moment, we'll tell you, we'll get you details how extensive repairs and construction of hangars that's
02:39underway at the Noor Khan airbase.
02:42In fact, images indicate more than one Iranian aircraft parked at this base.
02:46There are reports that seem to indicate that there are other Iranian aircraft, including passenger liners at other airbases in
02:53Pakistan.
02:54There are reports of one C-130 and at least two other aircraft, including a passenger liner.
03:00Satellite images reviewed by India today indicate Pakistan is building new hangars at the Noor Khan airbase, likely to conceal
03:07military assets from satellite monitoring following India's operation Sindhur.
03:13Pakistan, Pakistan incidentally, rejected the U.S. media reports regarding the presence of the Iranian aircraft at Noor Khan airbase,
03:20calling those reports appearing in U.S. media as misleading and sensationalized.
03:27Pakistan's foreign ministry has claimed that speculative narrative appears aimed at undermining ongoing efforts for regional stability and peace.
03:37And this is so typical Pakistan.
03:40You know, big words.
03:42It will pretend to be a peacemaker.
03:44But what is Pakistan actually doing?
03:47Pakistan, according to U.S. media reports, is harboring, shielding Iranian military aircraft from future attacks.
03:57Pakistan, of course, conceded some Iranian planes are parked at its airbases.
04:02But Pakistan claims that since Iranian and U.S. officials arrived, aircraft arrived in Pakistan after the ceasefire and during
04:11the initial rounds of talks in Islamabad to support the movement of diplomatic personnel, security teams and administrative staff had
04:19also arrived earlier.
04:20And some of their assets remain parked in the country.
04:27Before I get you more on this big story, listen in to Senator Lindsey Graham, because he's actually asking very
04:34tough questions.
04:35He's asking tough questions of the U.S. Secretary of War that are they aware of Pakistan's double speak, of
04:42Pakistan's double game.
04:43Listen in.
04:45If the mediator is allowing reconnaissance aircraft in Iran to be parked in Pakistani airbases, do you think that's consistent
04:55with being a fair mediator?
04:57I don't trust Pakistan as far as I can throw them.
05:00If they actually do have Iranian aircraft parked in Pakistan's bases to protect Iranian military assets, that tells me we
05:10should be looking maybe for somebody else to mediate.
05:13No wonder this damn thing is going nowhere.
05:17So, you know, I appreciate all you've done.
05:20I'm very supportive of it.
05:21But when it comes to Pakistan and China, enough already.
05:26Now, commercial high-resolution satellite imagery reviewed by India Today's open-source intelligence team indicates that more than one Iran
05:35-linked aircraft may have been parked at Pakistan's Noor Khan airbase in Ravalpindi.
05:40This airbase, as India Today's report shows you, has been undergoing massive, massive reconstruction operations intended to reduce satellite visibility
05:50of Pakistani military assets.
05:52And, of course, now perhaps Iranian military assets a year after Indian airstrikes at the Noor Khan airbase as part
05:59of Operation Sindur.
06:00Now, images sourced from a U.S.-based satellite space intelligence firm, it shows military aircraft matching the design and description
06:09of a C-130 transport aircraft stationed at Pakistan's sensitive VVIP airbase.
06:15Two additional aircraft, what resembles to be an Iranian Mirage airplane, visible in imagery captured.
06:23And this is captured on the 25th of April.
06:26One of these aircraft was likely used by Iranian Foreign Minister Sayyad Abbas Araqchi during his second visit to Islamabad.
06:34The reason for the other two aircraft parked at the airbase again remains unclear.
06:39U.S. lawmakers are questioning these developments, they're actually asking whether Pakistan, while pretending to be an unbiased mediator, is
06:49actually shielding Iranian assets, saving Iranian assets.
06:54Because if they are parked in Iran, they will be targeted once again, as is the apprehension that they may
07:00be targeted by the United States, they may be targeted by Israel.
07:03If they are parked either in Pakistan or in another country, like in one instance, there was an aircraft that
07:10was parked in Afghanistan, then they're shielded from U.S. airstrikes and missile strikes.
07:16Fresh satellite images also indicate significant reconstruction activity at the Noor Khan airbase nearly a month, nearly a year after
07:24it was targeted during Operation Sindur.
07:27Now, the main facility that is believed to be the command and control centre, which incidentally was targeted by Indian
07:33missiles, we'll show you those two images, those images that show massive damage during Indian strikes.
07:39Now, the original sites had to be demolished.
07:43The original construction had to be demolished and now it's been replaced by brand new structures coming up there.
07:49That facility destroyed and rebuilt after Operation Sindur, you can watch that on your television screen.
07:56Apparently, this image that was captured on the 25th of April seems to indicate that additional facilities are being constructed
08:04to protect more aircraft in this area.
08:08And I quickly want to cut across to India Today's open source intelligence and information editor, Ankit Kumar, joining me
08:16with more on the story.
08:17And Ankit, you've been poring over these satellite images for quite some time.
08:22Bring us first the Iranian aspect and then I'll come to the Noor Khan aspect in just a moment about
08:29post-Op Sindur reconstruction.
08:30But how many Iranian aircraft do we know of?
08:34Well, Gaurav, India's external affairs minister not long ago used the D word for Pakistan.
08:40These satellite pictures are first visual proof of why Pakistan's military leadership and current political leadership cannot be trusted by
08:49the international community.
08:50Now, these pictures were sourced by India Today by US-based satellite intelligence company Vanta and it shows at least
08:57three Iran-linked aircrafts.
09:00Now, the counter argument could be that these are in anticipation of Arakshi's visit.
09:07But the problem is that at least these two, one of these is C-130 and this other aircraft that
09:13is on your screen, these two have been parked here not just for days but for weeks.
09:18So, that does not make sense.
09:20Another interesting thing, Gaurav, is that a counter argument that is being given by the Pakistani accounts, Pakistani analysts, is
09:28that these could be linked with the Pakistani air force.
09:31They are not Pakistani and here's the evidence.
09:34See the pattern of the camouflage.
09:36These are the C-130s used by Iranian air force and this is the Noor Khan image from April 25.
09:43The pattern is similar.
09:45This, on the other hand, shows the Pakistani camouflage C-130 plane.
09:50The pattern is different and that is why we are saying that this particular aircraft belong to Iran.
09:55Now, here is an example of from April, from March 6, Gaurav, in Iran during the early days of the
10:05war.
10:05These particular aircraft, their prime targets, you can see, destroyed C-130s at Shiraz Air Base in Iran.
10:11And this particular image is what makes this entire thing very interesting.
10:17You know, every time there is satellite pictures of Noor Khan Air Base shown on Indian television, it causes embarrassment.
10:25And that is why Pakistan is creating these shelters.
10:29These are not hardened shelters.
10:31They will not protect your aircraft from air strike.
10:34But what they will do is, they will cover this area so that your ability to see through satellite pictures,
10:42to observe what is happening, that will get reduced.
10:45And that is why you can see, the work is still ongoing.
10:49And at least one, two, three, four new shelters, four new shelters at Noor Khan Air Base.
10:55This particular structure, Gaurav, was targeted during Operation Sindhur.
10:59It was believed to be a command and control center, which was completely destroyed.
11:04It has now been rebuilt in the new pictures.
11:06Gaurav.
11:08Ankit, many thanks for joining me for the moment.
11:11But Pakistan's double-speak is something that we want to highlight.
11:15And this isn't the first such instance.
11:18Pakistan's duplicity has repeatedly been exposed.
11:22And yet, Pakistan continues to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
11:28Let me tell you about 2005.
11:30Pakistan virtually ran a nuclear Walmart.
11:34Abdul Qadir Khan, the father of the Pakistani bomb, was actually running a nuclear Walmart where he was smuggling centrifuges
11:43using, incidentally, the same C-130s or similar C-130 transport aircraft.
11:48U.S.-made aircraft and centrifuges were being smuggled to Iran.
11:53The nuclear Walmart also was trying to help Libya make the bomb.
11:58Back in 2005, Pakistan admitted that the father of its bomb, Abdul Qadir Khan, had transferred sensitive centrifuge nuclear technology
12:06to help Iran's nuclear program.
12:09One of the biggest proliferation scandals in modern history.
12:132011, the world's most wanted terrorist, Osama bin Laden, he was killed in Abbottabad, barely 100 meters from Pakistan Military
12:25Academy Kakul.
12:27Remember, Pakistan was part of the international force to target Taliban in Al-Qaeda post-9-11.
12:36Pakistan was the most favored non-NATO ally or the most trusted non-NATO ally.
12:43This is how Pakistan responded to U.S. trust by shielding Osama bin Laden and hiding him very close to
12:51Pakistan Military Academy at Kakul.
12:53The same year, leaked Guantanamo Bay documents triggered another controversy with allegations of links between elements of Pakistan's ISI and
13:02terrorist networks.
13:03And this, when Pakistan publicly positioned itself as a country, Pakistan's ISI and CIA were working together in the war
13:13on terror.
13:152019, Imran Khan spoke aggressively on Jammu and Kashmir, but was completely silent on China's treatment of Uyghur Muslims.
13:25In fact, when a pointed question was put to him, he said, I'm not even aware of it.
13:30And this is when Pakistan claims to be a champion of Muslims world over.
13:36Yes, they may be, except when it comes to their paymaster China.
13:40When it comes to their uncle China, Pakistan just does a sajda verse, maybe a pie boss to Xi Jinping,
13:50kissing Xi Jinping's feet.
13:51But the silence was attributed to Pakistan dependent on arms and arms from China.
14:002026, Pakistan deployed fighter jets and troops to Saudi Arabia while trying to play a mediator in the Iran war
14:08and helping Iran, which incidentally was bombing Saudi Arabia.
14:12Now, Islamabad says, it's an honest mediator and Iranian reconnaissance aircraft are being sheltered at Noor Khan.
14:20Long history, familiar pattern.
14:23Pakistan says something, but does something completely different.
14:28And what should one make of Senator Lindsey Graham calling Pakistan, calling out Pakistan and Pakistan's long history of running
14:35with the hair and hunting with hounds?
14:37Joining me on India first is Michael Kugelman, director, South Asia Institute and Wilson Center.
14:42Joins us from the United States of America.
14:44Also with me, Sushant Sarin, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
14:47Gentlemen, welcome, Sushant.
14:49You heard Senator Lindsey Graham.
14:51Has Pakistan's double speak and double game been exposed?
14:56Hosting talks and quietly letting Iranian Elant aircraft be parked at the Noor Khan airbase?
15:04Gaurav, it doesn't matter whether it's been exposed or not.
15:08For 20 years, the Pakistanis were taking the Americans for a ride in Afghanistan.
15:12And the excuse they were making is that we can't take action against the Taliban.
15:16We cannot do anything to them.
15:18We have to give them safe havens and sanctuaries inside Pakistan.
15:22Because how else do you think we will be able to intercede on your behalf and get you guys to
15:28talk to each other?
15:30You know, so they've been playing this game for donkey's years now.
15:34And they are doing the same thing right now.
15:36Now, the Americans, I think there is at least a section of Americans who understand what is happening, how they
15:42are being had.
15:43But there is a larger section which includes probably people like Lindsey Graham.
15:47Because listen, you know, you are reacting to what you heard Lindsey Graham say yesterday.
15:54But the entire history of Lindsey Graham with the Pakistanis where he has lauded Pakistanis, appreciated them, held them up
16:02as exemplars, allies of the United States.
16:06So today he is flipping a lid.
16:08I don't take him seriously.
16:10No, but why is he flipping a lid now?
16:13What are games at play?
16:15Take him seriously, really.
16:17Sir, let me bring in Michael Kugelman to respond to this.
16:20Has Senator Lindsey Graham called a spade a spade finally on park mediation or park double game?
16:26Why would an Iranian electronic intelligence aircraft that RC-130 be parked at Noor base unless Pakistan was actually shielding
16:35Iranian assets perhaps from future attacks?
16:40Yeah.
16:40So first, a point on Lindsey Graham and what he said, just to keep the U.S. political context in
16:46mind here.
16:46Lindsey Graham is one of a very small number of public figures that President Trump trusts when it comes to
16:53issues related to Iran.
16:54You know, it's well known that there are not many subject area specialists in the White House, given that the
17:01NSC has been cut down significantly.
17:03So it's a small number of folks that President Trump depends on.
17:06So I think it's pretty significant that Lindsey Graham was so critical of Pakistan yesterday.
17:11Though, as you know, President Trump, soon after that hearing, when Graham made those comments, Trump said that he still
17:18sees Pakistan as an important mediator.
17:20He said he's still happy with Pakistan.
17:22But to your point about this report, you know, this is a case of a fact being presented in a
17:28report that cannot be disputed.
17:29Yes, there were military jets in Pakistan at Noor Khan, and even the Pakistani government acknowledged that.
17:36But the report, I think, presents a fact and then makes an assumption, an assumption that this meant just because
17:43there were military aircraft at Noor Khan, they were being shielded from the war.
17:47But I think there's some other important things to be brought out here.
17:49I just, you know, as an analyst, I think a full picture is necessary.
17:53You know, these these crafts could well have been used for and likely were used for diplomats from Iran that
18:01were coming to to to Islamabad for that round of talks in Islamabad.
18:05And indeed, some of them could have been kept on in Pakistan in anticipation of the possibility of a second
18:11round of talks, which did not happen.
18:13And let's keep in mind that America was not bombing Iran.
18:17Israel wasn't either at this time.
18:19There is a ceasefire in effect.
18:20So, you know, I think we have to be careful in assessing what is a very important, indeed, a bombshell
18:25report from from CBS.
18:28I just think it's important to put that that full picture out there.
18:32We could speculate about why those jets were there.
18:34Are we to believe?
18:35Are we then to believe, Michael?
18:37And let me bring in Sushant Sereen on this first, that, you know, people would be traveling, military generals or
18:43ministers would be traveling in electronic intelligence aircraft in an LNC-130.
18:49Sushant Sereen, because Pakistan's foreign ministry, as Michael Kuhlman very rightly points out, they haven't denied these reports of Iranian
18:57planes on Pakistani soil.
18:59But they said, you know, they were there when the entourage came and they just remained there.
19:06But should they be there when the principles have gone back to their respective countries?
19:10Or is this classic Pakistan playing all sides?
19:15So, I'll just come to that.
19:17Just a word on Lindsey Graham.
19:19Look, Michael is right that Lindsey Graham is somebody Trump has been, you know, talking to, listening to, taking him
19:25seriously.
19:26But the problem out here is a massive disconnect.
19:29Lindsey Graham is interested in bombing the hell out of Iran.
19:33Trump does not have the stomach for it anymore.
19:36He wants to get out of this war and he wants to get out of this war, keeping his dignity
19:40intact, which I think is going to become difficult as time goes on.
19:44Because the Iranians seem to be getting their act together.
19:47The American act is dissipating completely.
19:49So, I would imagine that he, Trump is in a, you know, caught between a rock and a hard place.
19:56And given his past record, he'll dump Lindsey Graham if Lindsey Graham's advice or his take on the current situation
20:07does not match up to what Trump wants to hear.
20:09On the other question, look, you know, you can make whatever excuse you want to make that these were officials
20:17of the Iranian, from the Iranian side who were brought in this military aircraft, which is also an Elynt aircraft.
20:25This is not one of the normal transport aircrafts.
20:29This is a very specialized kind of an aircraft which was brought out here.
20:34Why this?
20:35Look, I can understand this was brought when the main delegation of Iran was coming.
20:39But when that delegation was leaving, why didn't this plane leave with them?
20:44Ideally, if it was brought when that delegation was coming and that delegation came in a civilian aircraft from the
20:50images we saw, this aircraft would have accompanied them to monitor the airspace around, which incidentally the Pakistanis claimed they
20:58were also protecting.
20:59So, this aircraft comes around that time and then stays in Pakistan for what?
21:04Why doesn't it go back?
21:06Didn't it need to protect that delegation when it was going back?
21:09Because there were threats being issued from the American side that they will bump these guys off.
21:15There was that danger that these guys could be bumped at that point of time.
21:19So, should not this aircraft have gone back at that point of time?
21:22And if it is continuing to stay in Pakistan, then there has to be some other explanation because from April
21:2911-12 when this aircraft seems to have landed in Pakistan to now it's over a month.
21:35And I don't know what kind of negotiations or what kind of officials are staying in Pakistan and for what
21:41and what kind of negotiations are happening.
21:44So, let me bring in Michael Kugelman once again because, and I want our viewers in a moment to also
21:50listen to that conversation that was taking place because Michael Kugelman, Senator Lindsey Graham said,
21:56I don't trust Pakistan, I don't trust Pakistan as far as I can throw them.
22:00Given these reports of Iranian warplanes being sheltered on Pakistani side while Islamabad was supposedly brokering peace, does Pakistan appear
22:10to be not an unbiased mediator?
22:13Is Pakistan playing that old game of being a part of the coalition against Taliban and yet shielding the Taliban?
22:21They've done so in the past. Are they doing so even this time in your view?
22:26Well, I mean, I think it is quite clear that at this point of time, the US, or pardon me,
22:32Pakistan has earned more trust from the US than it has from Iran.
22:37You know, the Trump administration, you know, for whatever reason, including the president, appears to genuinely respect and admire and
22:45trust the top leadership in Pakistan, including the field marshal.
22:48Whereas with Iran, you know, I think that it wasn't until Ishak Dar went to Beijing to get China's buy
22:55-in for Pakistan's role in the mediation effort, only then could Pakistan count on Iran's buy-in for what Pakistan
23:02was doing, given the amount of leverage that China has over Iran.
23:06And I think that as this process plays out, as more time goes by without a deal, without even another
23:13round of formal talks between the Americans and the Iranians, I think Pakistan will be subjected to suspicion by the
23:20Iranians that the Pakistanis are simply too close to the Americans doing its bidding and so on.
23:27The irony here, you know, you probably saw the report from CNN the other day that there's some in the
23:32Trump administration that reportedly think that Pakistan is actually not doing a good job of being a mediator because it's
23:38not presenting accurately Trump's concerns, deep concerns, about the state of the peace process.
23:43This is the risk that Pakistan takes the longer it's involved, particularly playing this very open public role as a
23:50lead mediator.
23:50It's going to subject itself. It's going to get subjected to a lot of criticism from all sides.
23:55But in terms of whether Pakistan is not an honest broker, well, I mean, you know, at one point during
24:00those talks in Islamabad, the field marshal was sitting at the table next to the U.S. and Iranian sides.
24:06There were three-way talks happening. So at one point, at least, you know, the Iranians and the Americans trusted
24:12Pakistan to be playing the role that it was playing at that time.
24:16Though Pakistan has a long history of running with the hair and hunting with hounds, Sushant Sareen, and the U
24:22.S. administration is expected to know that, you know, given their attitude with the Taliban shielding Osama bin Laden in
24:30Abbottabad.
24:31And yet, if the U.S. trusts them, after what Donald Trump said in his first tenure as president, that
24:37we've given them $33 billion and all we get from them is lies and deceit, the U.S. is rather
24:44myopic.
24:47But the U.S. has always been like that, hasn't it? And look, as far as Trump is concerned, what
24:53he says in the evening, he contradicts in the afternoon and then he contradicts it again in the, you know,
25:01in the night.
25:02So who takes Trump seriously? Now, Michael is making a very recent argument that, you know, the longer this thing
25:11stretches out, but I think he's got the position wrong.
25:14I think the longer these talks stretch out without any kind of a solution, without any kind of a framework
25:20agreement, it works for the Iranians because the Iranians are sitting tight.
25:24They're sitting pretty. Who are the people who are suffering? It's the rest of the world.
25:29It's the Americans who are looking bad because they look like they've got paralysis.
25:34They bring in their ships, the ships get hit, the ships are taken back.
25:37They bring in aircraft carriers, those get hit, they pull them back.
25:41They have virtually given over the state of Hormuz.
25:45They're feeding wrong information to people.
25:47Now, Michael is quoting a particular news report that Trump or some people in America feel that the Pakistanis are
25:55delivering wrong messages.
25:56Apart from the fact that the Pakistanis always do that.
25:59The point is, what is the message that the Americans want to deliver?
26:02And who takes Trump seriously?
26:05Because he has threatened exterminating Iran at least a dozen times.
26:10And then he has backed off, right?
26:12He has chickened out.
26:13Who takes him seriously anymore?
26:16Look, so what are his options?
26:18He's run out of options.
26:20Either he now scales up the war, which will have its own implications,
26:24or he pulls out, in which case he can declare victory because he in his own head is always victorious.
26:31He's the greatest.
26:32He's Napoleon.
26:33He's Alexander.
26:34He's everybody rolled into one.
26:35No, sir.
26:36Are they hoping for forward movement post-China?
26:39And I'll come to that question in just a moment.
26:41And I want both of you to weigh in on that.
26:43But Michael Kugelman, President Trump in his first tenure had actually called out Pakistan for taking billions of dollars.
26:49If I remember correctly, that message said words to the effect that post $33 billion in 15 years,
26:55and U.S. got nothing but lies and deceit.
26:59Trump, in 2020…
27:00Yeah, go to Michael Kugelman.
27:01Go to Michael Kugelman's specific point.
27:02Okay.
27:03Just one sentence.
27:05You know, you forget that after he made that tweet,
27:08and a year later, he was sucking up to the Pakistanis,
27:11asking them to intercede on behalf of the Americans to get them some kind of a deal with the Taliban.
27:17So, you know, what he said in 2018 had no meaning by 2019.
27:22Yes.
27:23And overlooking, look, right now, America is desperate that Iran does not make a bomb,
27:29but it's the same Pakistan that Abdul Qadir Khan nuclear Walmart
27:35that sent the centrifuges to Iran using the C-130.
27:40Somewhere down the line, America, Michael Kugelman, doesn't seem to get its policy on Pakistan right.
27:46It seems to be feeding a snake whose actions are detrimental to the United States.
27:52Yeah, I mean, it's certainly true that Pakistan has been very good at playing American governments over the years.
27:57And, you know, we saw that, as was noted before, during the war in Afghanistan,
28:02looking to Pakistan and an ally, expecting that Pakistan would help the U.S. and Afghanistan,
28:07even though Pakistan was backing the Taliban.
28:10Of course, there are many other examples, the nuclear weapons program and others.
28:13But getting to your point about Trump, I mean, Sushant is exactly right,
28:16that what he says today is not what he's going to say tomorrow.
28:19And I would argue that this second term Trump, this Trump 2.0,
28:24is a very different Trump than you had in his first term,
28:28and that he's even more rigidly transactional than he was the first time around.
28:32Every consideration he has when it comes to America's foreign policy is,
28:37how can this help me?
28:38How can this help our interests?
28:39How can this help the U.S.?
28:40How can this help me?
28:42And Trump saw very early on in his second term...
28:44For instance, Michael Kugelman, every instance seems to have hurt American interests,
28:50whether it was 9-11 bombing, Pakistan shielding Osama bin Laden,
28:56Abdul Qadir Khan's nuclear Walmart,
28:59everything seems to be going against American interests in the long run.
29:02Right.
29:03But, I mean, again, he's very transactional.
29:06He thinks, what can help me now?
29:08He's not thinking about the long run.
29:09And what was the thing that happened that made Trump really change his view toward Pakistan?
29:14Early in the second term, it was when the Pakistanis helped the U.S. track down that ISKP terrorist
29:21that, according to the U.S., had been involved in the Abbey Gate attack in Kabul.
29:24As I understand it, that is what changed Trump's thinking in a big way.
29:27What happened?
29:28The Pakistanis helped the U.S. track down a terrorist that had killed Americans.
29:32And for Trump, that's significant, right?
29:34As you'll recall, in his first address to Congress in his second term,
29:38he publicly praised Pakistan, which stunned so many,
29:41because why would he be praising Pakistan of all countries?
29:44So my point is, you're right.
29:46Ultimately, decisions that the U.S. has made when it comes to how it engages with Pakistan
29:49have indeed often hurt U.S. interests over the longer term.
29:53But Trump thinks about, what can you do to help me today?
29:56Or tomorrow, maybe.
29:58But he doesn't think about long-range considerations.
30:01And in all of this, Pakistan's actually learned how to play the United States.
30:05So, Shantzareen, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show,
30:08because every time Pakistan wanted anything out of the United States,
30:12they would just hand over some terrorist and mint money out of the Americans.
30:18Yes, and the thing is, Gaurav, that the terrorist they've handed this time around
30:25was a low-level operator.
30:27He was not even a mastermind of the United States.
30:30Right?
30:31And he's just made a complete ass of the entire American system,
30:35which they wanted to become.
30:36And that is the problem that people like Trump,
30:40look, I don't have any problem with somebody being transactional.
30:43But the Americans need to ask themselves that his transactionalism in this round,
30:49what has it done?
30:50It has destroyed America's image.
30:52Who trusts America today?
30:54Even the Europeans have been alienated.
30:57You know, forget us.
30:58We never counted for much.
30:59But even the Europeans have been alienated.
31:02The Japs are scared.
31:03The Koreans are now trying to find their insurance.
31:06The Aussies are looking for some kind of hedge against, you know,
31:10China and other things,
31:11because they don't trust the Americans completely.
31:13Nobody trusts America anymore.
31:16Is this what transactionalism is?
31:18And the only transactionalism that seems to have worked with Trump
31:21is for him and his cronies
31:23and the billions of dollars they seem to have made.
31:25Oh, absolutely.
31:27And perhaps, you know,
31:28the Americans will have to think about this
31:30in their own national interest.
31:32I want to thank Michael Kugelman for joining me
31:34on this part of the show.
31:37Big story coming in.
31:38Iran's Foreign Minister, Syed Abbas Araqchi,
31:40he's now on his way to India for the BRICS foreign minister's meeting.
31:46Russia's Foreign Minister, Sergey Lavrov,
31:48is also expected to attend this meeting in person.
31:52But the Chinese Foreign Minister, Wang Yi,
31:55will not be here.
31:56Beijing is instead being represented by China's ambassador to India.
32:03The two-day meeting starts tomorrow.
32:05It's expected to be dominated to a very large extent
32:09on how to deal with the situation that emerges out of the situation in West Asia,
32:16shifting power equations and the push for a new global order.
32:22Syed Abbas Araqchi's presence comes at a very critical moment for Tehran
32:26as Iran has intensified its global outreach to look for support
32:32and in some ways consolidate support within emerging powers,
32:38especially power centers like the BRICS.
32:42For India, this meeting offers a chance to deepen engagement with Iran.
32:48India's positioning itself as a key diplomatic bridge
32:51in an increasingly polarized world,
32:54with wars, with sanctions, with shifting alliances,
32:58with global politics being reshaped.
33:01This BRICS table in New Delhi,
33:03the Foreign Minister's meeting now,
33:05which will set the tone for the summit later,
33:08is where key decisions, forward movement on key decisions
33:14are likely on future alignment for emerging powers.
33:18Very, very interesting.
33:20I want to quickly bring in India today's Pranay Upadhyay,
33:23who joins us four more on this.
33:25Pranay, the world is going through turmoil.
33:28It's not just Iran.
33:30To a very large extent,
33:32many global powers are looking at a grouping like BRICS
33:35to provide a solution.
33:37So, where, in which direction is India likely to steer
33:42the forward movement of BRICS?
33:45If you see the diplomatic calendar of this month,
33:49Gaurav, you can very well see that how India,
33:51who is a big votary of the multipolarity in the world,
33:54will be hosting not only the BRICS foreign ministers' meeting,
33:57but will also be hosting the Quad foreign ministers' meeting
34:01in the same month and prime minister would be travelling to UAE
34:04as well as to four other European nations.
34:07And as far as the BRICS grouping is concerned,
34:09you know, this is the first meeting
34:11or first international event
34:13where the Iranian foreign minister
34:15and also the foreign ministry representative of the UAE
34:19would be there.
34:19And just a while ago,
34:21if I may give you an update,
34:22that the Indian foreign minister,
34:24Dr. S.J. Shankar,
34:26held a meeting with his Russian counterparts,
34:28Sergei Lavrov, and therein Dr. Jai Shankar clearly said
34:32that in these uncertain times,
34:34the political contact between India and Russia
34:37has become more important.
34:40And as far as India's energy security is concerned,
34:43India is looking at, you know,
34:45making the partnership more robust
34:47with all friends, including Russia.
34:49Oh, absolutely.
34:51The other big story that we're tracking here on India today
34:54is U.S. President Donald Trump in Beijing.
34:57He's arrived in Beijing just a short while back.
35:00This is the first visit by an American president
35:04in nearly a decade.
35:05You're looking at those images of Donald Trump
35:07landing in Beijing just a short while back.
35:12Trump's priorities can be summed up in three T's.
35:17Trade, Tehran, and Taiwan.
35:21On trade, Donald Trump wants China
35:23to buy more made-in U.S. goods.
35:26He wants a bigger push for aviation.
35:30Aircraft purchases under discussion.
35:33On Iran, he's expected to press China
35:35to do more behind the scenes to influence Tehran,
35:38particularly to help open the Strait of Hormuz.
35:41Remember, China buys 90% of Iran oil
35:46and China also wants the Strait of Hormuz to be opened,
35:49even the American blockade to be removed.
35:51But America wants, one, Iran to lift the blockade
35:55and not demand $2 million per ship.
35:59Taiwan is also likely to feature prominently among other issues,
36:03including Hong Kong.
36:04From Beijing's perspective, Xi Jinping's objectives focus on three S's.
36:10So if it's three T's for America, it's three S's for China.
36:16Stability, status, and a sense on Taiwan.
36:21China wants greater stability in West Asia.
36:24It directly affects China's energy security,
36:27as it does practically Asia's energy security.
36:30Xi Jinping is also aiming to reinforce China's status
36:33as a responsible global power.
36:36There are many who are talking about a G2 emergence,
36:40America and China.
36:42China is also quietly working to ease tensions in Iran.
36:47On Taiwan, Beijing is seeking reassurance from Washington DC
36:50that there would be no interference on the issue of Taiwan.
36:54He wants a statement and restraint from allies.
36:59Now, despite these assumptions in Washington DC,
37:02China's influence over Iran, many analysts argue,
37:05is often overstated.
37:07Tehran does not simply follow Beijing's instructions.
37:10China can encourage dialogue.
37:12China can make suggestions.
37:13But is it likely that Tehran will listen to everything?
37:19That's a big, big question.
37:22I quickly, okay, listen in to Donald Trump.
37:24I'll get you more on that story.
37:27I think, number one, we're going to have a long talk about it.
37:30I think he's been relatively good, to be honest with you.
37:35You look at the blockade, no problem.
37:37They get a lot of their oil from that area.
37:40We've had no problem.
37:41And he's been a friend of mine.
37:43He's been somebody that we get along with.
37:46And I think you're going to see that good things are going to happen.
37:49This is going to be a very exciting trip.
37:51A lot of good things are going to happen.
37:52Do you think he needs to intervene at all with the Iranians?
37:57Do you think he can help in any way?
37:58No, I don't think we need any help with Iran.
38:01We'll win it one way or the other.
38:02We'll win it peacefully or otherwise.
38:06Their Navy's gone.
38:07Their Air Force is gone.
38:09Every single element of their war machine is gone.
38:13They've killed a lot of people.
38:15They've killed 42,000 people at least over the last month and a half.
38:20We're going to win.
38:24I want to bring Pranay Upadhyay once again into this conversation.
38:27Pranay, what are key expectations from this visit?
38:31Forward movement of Strait of Hormuz is something that everyone's talking about.
38:34But do we see a new emergence of a new structure, the G2 that some are talking about?
38:39Or is that very unlikely?
38:42We can't say for sure, Gaurav, that a G2 kind of structure can emerge from this meeting or not.
38:48Because, you know, President Donald Trump has given similar kind of structures with Russia as well and G2 kind of
38:54structure.
38:55But that didn't work.
38:56And in the current state of the international politics, the turbulence of geopolitics,
39:01you know, President Donald Trump is looking at a way out from the quagmire of Strait of Hormuz and the
39:08Iran situation.
39:08His immediate priority would be there.
39:10But a leader like President Donald Trump will not let President Xi Jinping get the byline of cracking a deal
39:18with Iran.
39:19So certainly, he'll try and navigate a situation where, you know, China might play some role in putting some pressure
39:26on Iran
39:27and to get some deal worked out.
39:29But the primary focus here would be sorting out the business relation and the trade relation with China
39:34because the U.S. economy also needs, and no amount of the rhetoric about the decoupling or the trade war
39:40or tariff war against China.
39:42But the fact remains that the U.S. economy is largely dependent on the Chinese supply lines.
39:48So will it be optics or will it be something substantive is the big question.
39:52And Pranay and our team will be tracking that story very closely.
39:55Pranay, for the moment, many thanks.
39:58Top Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh leader, Dattatre Hussabale, has stirred a harness nest calling for keeping a window open for dialogue
40:07with Pakistan,
40:09even as India deals firmly with the state sponsor of radical Islamist terror.
40:14The RSS General Secretary, in an interview, said India must strongly respond to Pakistan,
40:21any act of cross-border terrorism, but keep a window open for dialogue, for talks.
40:28He recalled former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee, how he always kept the path open for dialogue.
40:35He travelled to Lahore.
40:37He was quoted saying, Dattatre Hussabale was quoted saying, everything has been tried and most such efforts should continue.
40:46Atal ji tried to engage them in dialogue.
40:48He went to Lahore by bus and many things have happened.
40:51And our Prime Minister, this of course is in reference to Prime Minister Narendra Modi,
40:56invited Pakistan at the time of his oath-taking ceremony.
40:59Then he attended a wedding ceremony of a Pakistani leader.
41:02So all these things we have tried, Dattatre Hussabale emphasized that if Pakistan is like a pinprick,
41:10trying to create incidents like Pulwama, we have to answer appropriately according to the situation,
41:15because the security and self-respect of a country and the nation have to be protected.
41:20The government of the day should take note of it, should take care of it.
41:24But he believes diplomatic relations also need to be maintained.
41:28Trade, commerce, that continues, visas be given.
41:33And India should not stop these because there's always a window for dialogue.
41:39Now the Congress party has reacted very strongly to these remarks.
41:42They've actually criticized the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh.
41:46They're asking if this is a potential policy shift or is this happening under US pressure,
41:51under external influence, contrasting it with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's tough talk
41:56that terror and talks cannot happen together.
41:59In fact, senior Congress leader, Jairam Ramesh, indicated that Dattatre Hussabale's recent trip to the United States may have impacted
42:07him.
42:07And the RSS, perhaps implying that there is a US alignment or there's US pressure
42:14to restore dialogue between India and Pakistan.
42:19However, in Jammu and Kashmir, PDP chief Mehmooban Mufti, she welcomed the statement, calling for dialogue,
42:26saying dialogue is the only way forward, aligning it with long-standing calls for engagement
42:31on the issue of Jammu and Kashmir and for other bilateral issues.
42:36Now listen in to Dattatre Hussabale.
42:38I'll get you more on the story.
42:41Is the Pakistanis the pinpricks trying to give, like in Poulgama, etc., we have to answer wholesomely
42:50according to the situation, because the security and self-respect of a country, a nation, has
43:00to be protected and the government of the day should take note of it and take care of it.
43:05But at the same time, we need not close the doors.
43:09We should always be ready to engage them in dialogue.
43:13That's why diplomatic relations are maintained.
43:16Trade and commerce goes on.
43:18Visas are being given.
43:20So that we should not stop it.
43:24But because there should be a window for always for a dialogue.
43:31The question is, what has changed from India insisting terror and talks cannot happen together?
43:37Prime Minister Narendra Modi on more occasion than one has said,
43:44Does this also indicate that we will see a change in the policy of the government saying
43:50blood and water cannot flow together?
43:52Is there merit in the Congress Party asking, is there a change either in the government policy
43:58or the RSS stance post this recent United States visit?
44:03Is there US pressure being mounted to start dialogue with Pakistan?
44:08Joining me on India first is Desh Rathan Nigam, a political analyst and advocate close to the
44:15sang.
44:16Also with me, Sushant Sareen, senior fellow at the Observer Research Foundation.
44:19Somebody who keeps a close eye on Pakistan's perfidy and doublespeak.
44:24Desh Rathan Nigam, is this Hridai Parivartan?
44:28Is this US pressure?
44:30As Jairam Ramesh asks.
44:32I don't think so, Gaurab.
44:34Because if you look at in totality what Vathath Reji, the Sir Karwa, respected Sir Karwa has said.
44:41He said Pakistan is a public and appropriate responses have been given to Pakistan,
44:47whether it was a surgical strike or operation.
44:49Sindhu.
44:50So those steps have to be taken by the government of India.
44:53But at the same time, he said the military of Pakistan cannot be trusted.
44:58He wanted to engage with the civil society.
45:00Whether a government controlled by a military can actually engage in effective dialogue or
45:07talks is a question.
45:08Which in my opinion, Dutta Tireji very clearly said that cannot be done because it's the military
45:14which is actually controlling that.
45:16So he has asked the civil society people, artists, the sports person, others to engage.
45:21Yes, the dialogue allows for the parties to actually understand what is Pakistan up to?
45:27What is India's stand?
45:30Yes.
45:30However, today what we have seen, see, RSS does not dictate any policy to the government.
45:37We work in an ecosystem where we engage with the various sections of our society, whether NGOs,
45:43the experts, investors, politicians from various youths, and we create an ecosystem within which the policy develops.
45:52And we are not foreign ministers.
45:56Okay, no, but you are creating an ecosystem for dialogue resumption with Pakistan because
46:01Sushant Sareen, Indian leaders in the past have repeatedly fallen into Pakistan trap or
46:08as many argue, the American trap.
46:10America wants its business to be sorted.
46:13Pakistan wants dialogue with India.
46:16So then you have an ecosystem in India that will suddenly rise and ask for dialogue with
46:19Pakistan and say, oh, you can't change your neighbors.
46:22You have to talk with your neighbors, the same neighbor who's followed one consistent policy
46:27to bleed you over decades.
46:30Are we falling in the same trap, Sushant Sareen?
46:33We never got out of that trap.
46:35If I hear what the RSS leader said today, it's quite clear that we have always been in that trap.
46:41Now, let me make a couple of points.
46:43This is the classic own goal or self goal which has been done today.
46:48And it is reflective of a kind of a suicidal thinking.
46:52My friend, Mr. Nigam, who was my prime minister in college, says that we need to speak to people,
47:00artists and civil society in Pakistan to understand.
47:04You haven't understood Pakistan in 80 years.
47:06How much more understanding do you need?
47:08Then Mr. Hosomole says these are pinpricks.
47:13Is Pulwama a pinprick when 40 Indian soldiers are blown apart?
47:17Is that a pinprick?
47:18I can take pinpricks from Pakistan.
47:20Pinpricks are those stupid characters, ISPR characters doing fake tweets.
47:25That's a pinprick.
47:26Right?
47:26I don't declare war on them on a pinprick.
47:29Pulwama was not a pinprick.
47:32Okay?
47:33Let's be very clear.
47:34Pahal Gaam is not a pinprick.
47:36Mr. Hosomole then says, Atal Ji went in the bus.
47:40What happened after Atal Ji went two weeks later, the Pakistanis were in Kargil?
47:44What happened after Mr. Modi went to Lahore for the wedding?
47:48Pathan code.
47:49You had Pathan code.
47:50So, you know, Gaurav, it is shocking this kind of suicidal thinking and these people
47:57who think, okay, it's the politicians and the army in Pakistan which is bad.
48:02Have they done a survey of the civil society in Pakistan?
48:05On what basis is these people in the RSS saying that the civil society, the artists, etc., etc.,
48:13we should have sports links, we should have good ties with them.
48:16On what basis do they think that they can have these good things?
48:20Let me get Desh Ratan Nigam to respond to that because Pakistani cricketers, Pakistani cricketers,
48:26they either want to convert Hindus to Islam.
48:29Is RSS okay with it?
48:31Pakistani cricketers talk of Gazwai Hind.
48:34Is RSS okay with it?
48:36I mean, I want to understand why you're taking Vajpayee example.
48:39Vajpayee was stabbed in the back.
48:41And because Vajpayee was stabbed in the back, 550 Indians lost their lives.
48:46And yet Musharraf was invited to Agra.
48:49And then we had an attack on our parliament.
48:51And yet Vajpayee went to Pakistan once again.
48:54And you had more terror attacks in India.
48:56Vajpayee enjoyed SPG security.
48:58Not the hundreds of Indians who are killed, sir, on the streets of Mumbai.
49:02In the trains of Mumbai, 200 people were killed in 2006.
49:06166 were massacred in 26-11-2008.
49:10Well, Gaurav, in fact, the examples that have been cited by Shushant Soveen and yourself,
49:17they are very relevant, no doubt.
49:19But we will not engage with the people who are anti-India there.
49:23Yes, I'm sure there will be people, and we have heard voices there in Pakistan,
49:28who have taken a very positive stand.
49:30But certainly not with a military-controlled government.
49:33Not certainly with those sportspersons who want to convert Hindus into Muslims or, for example, having Vazwai Hind.
49:43See, dialogue and discussion.
49:54Sir, you're talking about Pakistani civil society.
49:56But, Shushant Soveen, one question.
49:59And for everybody who wants dialogue with Pakistan.
50:02Has Pakistan lifted a little finger to tackle India-centric terror?
50:08To call out that military jihad network operating in Pakistan.
50:13There they shower rose petals on people who bleed Indians.
50:17Lashkar-e-Taip is a national hero in Pakistan.
50:19So, Shushant Soveen.
50:20So, when Mr. Hozboleh says that we should talk to community leaders in Pakistan,
50:26Hafiz Saeed is a community leader.
50:28You ask any Pakistani, he'll tell you he's a religious leader.
50:32Jais-e-Mohambad fellow is a religious leader out there.
50:35They'll say he's a community leader.
50:36They say that when you bomb that goddamn place in Bahawalpur,
50:41that was a religious place.
50:44That was not a terrorist training camp.
50:46That is what they say.
50:47Now, if Mr. Hozboleh cannot distinguish between the two,
50:51then he should not talk on these issues.
50:53He should stick to his core competence rather than weighing in on these kind of issues.
50:58When Mr. Nigam says that there are a few people in Pakistan,
51:02you know, who have nice feelings for India.
51:04Yeah, tell me something.
51:08What is the worth of those people?
51:11And what are those people?
51:13Those same people are those Najam Sethi-Pheti type of people
51:15who spew venom against you whenever they get the charge.
51:20And final point, they say when the military does not dominate.
51:23Can Mr. Nigam please inform me in the last 80 years
51:27when it was that the military did not dominate the policy on India in Pakistan?
51:32Okay, 30 seconds, Mr. Nigam, 30 seconds that I have on this part of the show.
51:35Because this is something perhaps,
51:36okay, Mr. Nigam,
51:38because Dattatre Hussabwe also when he says something,
51:40he's influencing at least some people in our country
51:42in case they then start calling for dialogue with Pakistan
51:45or that Vaga-Mombatti brigade rises once again,
51:48that'll be disastrous.
51:50We'll have another terror attack.
51:51Then again we'll say blood and water cannot flow together.
51:54Why must we go through this cycle again and again?
51:56Certainly not.
51:58You know, what is Dattatre Hussabwe has very clearly said
52:02is a signal to the Pakistani society
52:05that you have to move away from military.
52:08That's the signal that he has given.
52:10That you cannot be trusted
52:13till the military is controlling.
52:16The RSS worldview certainly about,
52:19generally speaking about confident Indian civilization
52:22which believes in its past
52:23and which is not afraid of its future.
52:25We are reclaiming our place in the international level
52:28and therefore,
52:29if Pakistan tries to create a problem,
52:32we are for an appropriate strong response
52:35which has been given in the past.
52:37But at the same time,
52:38what we see today in the international arena
52:42that India is very suitably placed for
52:45as a peacemaker in the world.
52:47So when we have that image,
52:49when everybody tries to approach India,
52:51we have a policy,
52:53the government of India
52:53has a policy towards Pakistan.
52:55But at the same time,
52:57with a strong response,
52:58we have a certain window open
53:00so that our neighborhood is peaceful.
53:02We have seen what has happened in Bangladesh.
53:05We are seeing what is happening in Pakistan.
53:07But at the same time,
53:09along with this strong and appropriate response
53:10which has been given in the past,
53:12a small window
53:13with the people of the civil society
53:17who the military does not control.
53:20Yes, they do speak.
53:22Sir, they need to rise.
53:23They will be put in jail in Bahawalpur and Muridke.
53:26But I haven't seen this minuscule minority in Pakistan.
53:30And trust me,
53:31you know,
53:31Sushant and I track Pakistan very closely.
53:34Trust me, Sushant,
53:35the next pressure will come.
53:37Indus Water Treaty,
53:38which is held in advance,
53:39please give them water.
53:40They are drying off thirst.
53:42Trust me,
53:43our blood does not matter.
53:44Pakistani water matters more.
53:47You know,
53:48this constant refrain
53:50of the civil society
53:52that ministers,
53:52it doesn't count for anything.
53:54An article in one paper
53:57somewhere in Pakistan,
53:58it does not matter.
53:59So,
54:00if you are making your policy
54:01on the basis
54:02of a fringe,
54:04of a fringe,
54:04of a fringe minority in Pakistan,
54:07then we need to get our heads examined.
54:09We are not a serious country.
54:10We are not a serious people.
54:12And frankly speaking,
54:13pardon my saying so,
54:14the RSS is not a serious organization
54:16if it is going to make policy
54:18on the basis of a fringe,
54:20of a fringe,
54:20of a fringe.
54:21Right?
54:22Let's be very clear about it.
54:24So,
54:24please,
54:25please,
54:26Sir,
54:261,000 years of Somnath,
54:28when we talk about rebuilding the Somnath,
54:31taking it
54:32absolutely
54:33to its new glory,
54:35clearly,
54:36we have to learn
54:37some lessons
54:39and some lessons from history.
54:41We must also learn
54:42from the Battle of Tarai.
54:44We must learn
54:44from what happened
54:45to Prithviraj Chauhan
54:46after he forgave
54:48Mohammed Gauri
54:48and what transpired.
54:50But,
54:50that's a lesson
54:51for another day.
54:52That is all I have for you
54:54in this part of the broadcast.
54:56Many thanks for watching.
54:57News and updates
54:58continue on India Today.
54:59Stay with us.
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