00:00So let's raise the big questions there. Is Pakistan really playing the role of a serious peacemaker or is it
00:07simply a client state of the United States?
00:09What explains Pakistan's mediation bid? Does Pakistan have any leverage in West Asia crisis, particularly over in Iran?
00:18Should India keep away from these Pakistan driven mediation efforts?
00:23Joining me now is a special guest. Ajay Bissaria is senior diplomat, former Indian High Commissioner to Islamabad, the last
00:30High Commissioner that we had there.
00:32Mr. Bissaria, thanks very much for joining me. How do you see these efforts or the claims that Pakistan is
00:39putting up of being a mediator?
00:41Is it an honest mediator here or simply trying to establish some kind of a relevance or become a client
00:49state for the United States and and buy some time for the US as it prepares or thinks about a
00:56ground invasion of Iran?
00:58Because Iran has made it clear, Mr. Bissaria, they are not part of any such negotiation.
01:03So how does one now see Pakistan's bid to take center stage?
01:09Well, Radheep, at the current stage of conflict, the action is on the battlefield and the diplomacy is a bit
01:18of a diversion, if not a ruse.
01:21Pakistan's role is not entirely surprising. It's a bit of a stretch to call it mediation.
01:28It is at best being used as some kind of back channel as a messenger.
01:34But clearly, you know, there's a great gulf in the positions of the US and Iran and Pakistan is being
01:46used because Oman refused and the US needed a controllable country, which could pass on some messages, at least to
01:56do the choreography of diplomacy.
01:59And Oman had clearly refused because midway through the negotiations that the Omanis were helping in, the US and Israel
02:10attacked Iran.
02:11So I think this time around, too, everyone expects that the talks are a ruse and really the ground is
02:18being prepared for a real strike or the final blow after the 6th of April.
02:27Very interesting, Mr. Bissaria, that you use the word ruse.
02:31You believe this is a ruse that is being used by the US.
02:34The US are using Pakistan in a way to buy time because Pakistan, remember, has got Egypt, Turkey on board.
02:43Their foreign ministers were in Islamabad this weekend.
02:46And you seem to believe all of this is this ruse to buy time so that the US and the
02:52US is getting Pakistan to work to its tunes.
02:56Am I correct?
03:00Absolutely.
03:01I think, and the Pakistanis would be aware of the fact that this is a ruse.
03:06They did convene, therefore, what they call the quadrilateral with, apart from the countries you mentioned, also Saudi Arabia.
03:15And the interesting dynamic now is that Pakistan's foreign minister, Ishak Dar, is being summoned to China.
03:24He's going off to Beijing tomorrow, possibly to give a report of what happened and to try and get the
03:33Chinese involved in the dynamics of what is happening.
03:37Because, let's not forget, China is an important stakeholder.
03:41Much of the Iranian oil was going to China.
03:44And I think the Pakistanis have been used or are being used by the US because of the past history.
03:54You know, both Iran and Pakistan are part of CENTCOM or part of the jurisdiction of CENTCOM.
04:01Therefore, they are trusted to that extent.
04:04Also, there's a history in 1971.
04:07You know, you remember Kissinger feigned a stomachache in Islamabad, took a Pakistani plane and went off to China to
04:16deliver a backchannel message.
04:18And also in the 1980s and 1981, Pakistan helped in the backchannel talks between the US and Iran to release
04:27hostages.
04:27So, there is a background to it.
04:29But at this point of the conflict, the current conflict, clearly, I think this is only a sideshow.
04:36It's a ruse.
04:36It's not a serious diplomatic effort.
04:40You know, you're giving a very interesting historical context to Pakistan's diplomatic history in a way, Mr. Bissaria.
04:50But I want to understand, do you believe that Pakistan today has any leverage with Tehran at all to work
04:58out a negotiated settlement?
05:00Do you believe that there is any special relationship that Pakistan shares with Tehran and the Ayatollahs at the moment?
05:10Well, the only leverage they have is really of being able to convey a message and possibly having channels open
05:19through which they can communicate those messages.
05:22Because, you know, Pakistan has also had a very difficult relationship with Iran.
05:28There have been exchanges of missiles at the border.
05:32There have been lots of differences that have been expressed in the past.
05:37But at this point of time, with Iran isolated, it is looking for solidarity among whichever countries it can find.
05:45And clearly, Pakistan is being used to send some messages.
05:50The 15-point plan, which was in Iran looked as a surrender document given by the Americans, was possibly relayed
05:59through the Pakistanis.
06:00But I think that is the extent to which they can contribute at this stage as a sort of back
06:07channel or a channel of communication.
06:11I want to understand, given all that you've just said to me, Ajay Bisari, I do believe it's in India's
06:16best interest, therefore, to stay out of any mediation efforts, irrespective of all the headlines that Pakistan grabs, particularly given
06:24the unpredictability of a U.S. president like Donald Trump and what he does next.
06:29I think India's posture should be certainly not to get involved in this current round of diplomacy, because it's not
06:41serious diplomacy.
06:42It's just a diversionary tactic from all accounts, you know, looking at the mobilization, 5,000 Marines and sailors, 2
06:51,000 paratroopers.
06:53There's likely to be a final blow assault from the 7th or 8th of April.
06:59And at this stage, the diplomacy will simply be the U.S. saying, oh, we tried diplomacy, but it didn't
07:07work.
07:07The Iranians didn't agree. So I think India would, you know, kind of not get involved in this, shouldn't get
07:15involved in this particular round.
07:17But India should continue to raise its voice for dialogue and diplomacy in general and, you know, play a more
07:26forward-leaning role, calling for peace and calling all stakeholders to get on to the table rather than, you know,
07:37get into escalating conflict because India is a stakeholder.
07:41But in this current round of diplomacy, no, I don't see an Indian role.
07:48But at the same time, Mr. Bisaria, should India not be concerned about the fact that the United States appears
07:54to see Pakistan, which we attempted to isolate after Operation Sindur, as still its go-to option whenever it needs
08:04these kinds of, to handle these kinds of diplomatic crises in the region?
08:08It almost seems that we have gone back to the days where Pakistan was used by the United States, for
08:14example, in the war in Afghanistan as a frontline ally.
08:18Now it's in the context of Iran.
08:20Should India not be concerned about this seemingly special relationship that is being built between a Donald Trump and a
08:27General Aasem Munir?
08:30Well, I don't think India should be particularly concerned.
08:34This is Pakistan's desperate attempt at staying relevant to all its political godfathers, which includes the U.S., Saudi Arabia
08:44and China.
08:45Because of the situation it is in India should, in fact, wish them good luck if they, by some miracle
08:52good, you know, do happen to help in the peace.
08:58But at this point of time, there's a very specific set of circumstances which makes Pakistan a useful channel for
09:06the U.S. in this particular conflict.
09:09It's not that it will be a dependable ally for the U.S. in any other conflict.
09:15But I think India shouldn't be too concerned.
09:18And if by some miracle this works, all good luck to all the stakeholders.
09:24Okay. Ajay Bissaria, for putting these negotiations in some kind of context for us, particularly your belief that this is
09:32a ruse and we should stay away from these mediation efforts that you believe Pakistan is working under U.S.
09:39instructions.
09:40Thank you very much for joining me.
09:42Former Indian High Commissioner to Islamabad, Ajay Bissaria, joining me there.
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