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This edition of India First show focusses on escalating tensions in the Strait of Hormuz, where Iranian naval commandos have seized commercial vessels.
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00:01Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savan. There is calibrated escalation by
00:05Iran in the Strait of Hormuz. The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps or the IRGC commandos
00:12watch these images very carefully. They forcibly took control of two ships in the Strait of Hormuz.
00:19They boarded these ships. In fact, the Iranian Navy took these ships to Iranian waters,
00:25to an Iranian port in the Strait of Hormuz, claiming they were in violation of Iranian laws.
00:31Watch these images carefully. These are commandos of Iran's Navy. They board the ship with their
00:39weapons drawn, take control of the ship and take it to Iran. Iran released a video showing
00:45its total dominance of the Strait of Hormuz. Iran's state television broadcasts this footage,
00:52these messages. And for a moment, I want to go full screen, full frame on these images as you
00:57appreciate what's happening there. Iran has broadcast footage of masked troops pulling up in a grey
01:08speedboat alongside MSC Francesca. Now, this is a Mediterranean shipping corporation ship,
01:15Francesca. They climb a rope ladder into the shell door of the hull and jump through brandishing their
01:24rifles. Iran has also claimed it has collected its first revenue from toll imposed on ships that's
01:35transiting the Strait. And that's a very big statement for Iran to make. And the statement has
01:41been made by Iran Parliament's Deputy Speaker, Hamid Reza Haji Baba. He's been quoted by Tasneem News
01:49Agency saying, and I quote, first revenues from transit fees in the Strait of Hormuz has been deposited
01:57into the central bank account. The amount charged varies depending on the type and volume of the cargo
02:04and the level of risk posed by each vessel. Iran determines the rate and collection mechanism.
02:13Unquote. Reports indicate Iran has ordered ships to arrange toll payment in advance with Iran's Islamic
02:21Revolutionary Guard Corps and pay either in cryptocurrency or in the Chinese currency. And this is a direct
02:30attack on the U.S. petrodollars. The Pentagon, meanwhile, has informed the U.S. Congress that it
02:38could take at least six months to clear the Hormuz seabed of Iranian mines. And any such operation is
02:46unlikely to be carried out until the war in West Asia ends. Pentagon officials told lawmakers that Iran
02:53may have put 20 or more mines in and around that very vital stretch, that very vital waterway.
03:01Some of these were placed using a boat, while others were set afloat using GPS-guided technology,
03:07making it virtually impossible, makes it very difficult to detect them. U.S. President Donald Trump
03:14claims he's ordered the U.S. Navy to shoot at any boat laying the mines in the Strait of Hormuz.
03:20Trump took to social media platform, Truth Social, to say, and I quote,
03:24I have ordered the U.S. Navy to shoot and kill any boat, small boats, though they may be,
03:32that is putting mines in the waters of the Strait of Hormuz. There is to be no hesitation.
03:39Trump went on to write, sea mine sweepers are now clearing the Strait. But is that actually true?
03:47What's happening in the United States? Remember, America has been talking of a regime change in Iran.
03:53But what's happening at the Pentagon? In a dramatic escalation of the ongoing churn inside the Pentagon,
03:59U.S. Navy Secretary John Fallon has been fired with immediate effect. Reports from the U.S. indicate
04:06that Fallon's ties with Pentagon leadership had been under severe strain for several weeks.
04:12The sacking is being linked to what is being described as slow-paced Navy reforms,
04:18something that did not go down well with U.S. Secretary of War Pete Hexet.
04:22But it's not just about performance.
04:24Fallon was also at loggerheads with Pete Hexet, particularly,
04:28according to reports in the U.S., over lines of communication directly with the White House.
04:33Reports indicate Hexet was opposed to Fallon maintaining a direct channel with U.S. President Donald Trump
04:39and with the White House effectively bypassing the Pentagon hierarchy.
04:44And these disagreements appear to be the tipping point.
04:48According to reports, President Trump was looking at new leadership in the Navy
04:52and the final decision to remove Fallon was conveyed privately to him.
04:57But is there a wider pattern to this? And consider this.
05:02John Fallon is not the first top officer to be axed at the Pentagon in what is being described by
05:08some
05:08in the MAGA ecosystem as Operation Cleanup under Trump 2.0.
05:13Before Fallon, it was General Randy A. George, Chief of the Army Staff of the United States.
05:19He was given his marching orders.
05:20General George's removal was one of the most significant actions taken by Pete Hexet.
05:25He was reportedly at odds with Hexet over troop deployment priorities and modernization timelines,
05:31especially during an active phase of conflict.
05:35There were also differences on the force readiness versus the speed of restructuring U.S. forces,
05:42with Pete Hexet pushing for faster and more aggressive changes.
05:46But that's not all.
05:47Coast Guard Commander Linda Fagan, one of the top admirals,
05:52Admiral Fagan's removal is being linked to differences over operational priorities and force deployment strategy.
05:58There were also reports of disagreements on resource allocation and Coast Guard's expansion in terms of their security role.
06:05Pete Hexet pushed for tighter alignment with broader military objectives.
06:10So she was axed and she wasn't the only one to be axed.
06:13Admiral Lisa Francheri, the Chief of Naval Operations, she too was axed.
06:18And that underscores tensions over naval preparedness and fleet modernization timelines.
06:24Pete Hexet is believed to have been at odds with her,
06:27dissatisfied with the speed of transition towards high-intensity combat preparedness.
06:32Then, there was that famous case of General James C. Slife,
06:37Vice Chief of Staff of the U.S. Air Force.
06:40And General Slife reportedly clashed with Hexet over air power doctrine and modernization priorities,
06:44especially concerning special operations and future warfare capabilities.
06:49Look at that pattern.
06:51Top generals in the Army, Navy and Air Force.
06:55Then, General Charles Brown Jr., he was Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff,
06:59one of the most significant removals by Trump 2.0 administration.
07:03General Brown's exit signaled direct overhaul of the top military hierarchy.
07:07He again reportedly deferred with Pete Hexet on strategic doctrine.
07:13Long-term force planning and internal policy direction.
07:17But then, the list actually is even longer.
07:20Jeffrey Cruz, for example.
07:21And Jeffrey Cruz was Director, Defense Intelligence Agency.
07:25Cruz firing points to rising tensions between the Trump administration
07:29and the intelligence assessment and threat projections.
07:33Donald Trump in 2025 had claimed,
07:36U.S. had obliterated Iran's nuclear facilities,
07:39but the assessment stated that strikes on Iran's nuclear facilities caused only limited damage.
07:46And this was the reason that the officer was axed.
07:50Then, Sushona Chatfield, U.S. Representative to the North Atlantic Treaty Organization Military Committee.
07:59Now, her removal is actually tied to differences over alliance coordination and military diplomacy.
08:05Sources indicate that friction, and this is sources to U.S. media,
08:10that friction regarding how closely U.S. military positions and priorities should align with NATO partners led to the sacking.
08:19And then, of course, there was General Timothy Ho, Director, NSA and U.S. Cyber Command.
08:24The generals exit signal tensions in cyber and intelligence domain.
08:29Reports indicate disagreement over the cyber strategies, surveillance priorities,
08:33and surveillance priorities become extremely significant here.
08:37And integration of surveillance with battlefield operations.
08:42Then, there was Lieutenant General Jennifer Short, Senior Military Assistant to Secretary of Defense.
08:48And Lieutenant General Short's removal is particularly striking,
08:51striking, given her proximity to Secretary of Defense.
08:56Sources point to internal disagreements over execution of directives and advisory roles within the Pentagon.
09:03Now, just look at this long list of generals, air marshals, admirals being axed.
09:09Vice Admiral Nancy Lacor, for example, Head of Navy Reserves.
09:14Vice Admiral Lacor was reportedly at odds with Pete Hexit over Reserve Force integration and readiness standards,
09:22especially amidst rising operational demands.
09:24Then, Rear Admiral Milton Sands, the third, Head of Naval Special Strike Warfare Command.
09:31Admiral Sands' removal, again, it was highlighting tensions over Special Operations readiness and mission strategy.
09:39Pete Hexit, again, was being accused of pushing for more aggressive operational posture.
09:46The big question here is, and when you look at this entire list of over a dozen top generals and
09:52admirals being axed,
09:54and some really being sent home, people who've put in 30 to 40 years of uniformed service,
10:01they were suddenly sent home.
10:02Any resistance to Pete Hexit or to the commands that come from the White House lead to instant firing.
10:10That's the charge that's being leveled.
10:13But let's now talk about Donald Trump at another level.
10:16U.S. President Donald Trump is finding himself facing criticism of endorsing a racist rant.
10:22The U.S. President reposted American political commentator and radio host Michael Sawaj's podcast where he referred to India, China
10:32and other nations as hellholes.
10:36A baby here becomes an instant citizen and then they bring in their entire family from China or India or
10:45some other hellhole on the planet.
10:48The letter also describes Indian and Chinese immigrants as gangsters with laptops who've stepped on our flag.
10:56That's what was written in that letter.
10:58And Trump reposted it.
11:00On Trump's derogatory post comparing India and China as hellholes,
11:04the Ministry of External Affairs, Spokesperson Additional Secretary Randeer Jaiswal said,
11:08We have seen some reports and that is where I'll leave it.
11:13Listen in.
11:15Donald Trump has endorsed a post.
11:17The post compares India and China as hellholes.
11:22What is the Indian government's response on the U.S. President comparing terming India in a derogatory manner?
11:28We have seen some reports.
11:31That is where I'll leave it.
11:36So, let me for a moment come back to our top story of what's happening in the Strait of Hormuz.
11:41Are we now to understand that the Strait that you see right behind me,
11:46Iran completely dominates it.
11:48Dominates it enough to board ships at will, to take those ships to their ports
11:54and as the Deputy Speaker of the Iranian Parliament said,
11:57collect money to give them safe passage.
12:00The question now is, will there be another round of talks in Islamabad to de-escalate
12:05or are all signs pointing to a calibrated escalation in a very dangerous game of brinkmanship?
12:14Iran is forcibly boarding ships,
12:16charging money to facilitate the crossing of Hormuz and that's sending out a signal.
12:20U.S. is boarding ships in the Gulf of Oman and in the wider Indian Ocean region.
12:24U.S. aircraft are now flying additional resources to the region.
12:28So, how should one join the dots and watch these developments?
12:32Joining me on India first is Craig Kafura,
12:34Director of Public Opinion and Foreign Policy at the Chicago Council on Global Affairs.
12:39Joins us from Washington, D.C.
12:41Dr. Tara Karthas, former Director of National Security Council, joins us on the show.
12:46And Craig Kafura, let me begin by asking you,
12:49is the Navy in Iran, by forcibly boarding ships in the Strait of Hormuz,
12:55sending out that message to the American president that Strait of Hormuz belongs to Iran,
13:02U.S. does not dominate the Strait of Hormuz, as President Trump may have claimed?
13:08I think that's pretty clearly the kind of signaling that Iran is trying to portray right now.
13:13They're signaling that, contrary to U.S. claims, they still have military capabilities.
13:17And we've seen some reporting that perhaps more of those capabilities have survived the U.S. strikes
13:22than initially thought.
13:23They're trying to convey an opening point for their bargaining position,
13:27which is going to be greater control over the Strait,
13:30perhaps the ability to levy poles on ships passing through Hormuz,
13:33which would be a new development, an unwelcome development, I think,
13:36for everyone who needs to pay for gas that comes through that Strait.
13:40And I think they're demonstrating that they have capabilities too, right?
13:43The U.S. is boarding ships.
13:44The U.S. is demonstrating its ability to blockade ships that get through Iran's clearance points.
13:50But Iran is saying, hey, we can do this too.
13:53Two can play this game.
13:54If you want to change this, we're going to have to sit down and talk about it.
13:58Okay.
13:58But U.S. is the world's most powerful armed forces, the most powerful economy,
14:05versus a nation that's been facing sanctions for more than 47 years.
14:10Tarakarta, President Trump says the Strait of Hormuz has to be open.
14:14It has to be free.
14:15But the debris speaker of Iran's parliament has been quoted by Tasneem agency just today,
14:20saying that Iran has received the first payment of facilitating the crossing of ships.
14:24Is this a massive loss of face for the U.S. president and prestige for the United States?
14:33It is, definitely.
14:35I mean, all along we've seen this very, very, you know, minuscule army,
14:40which Iran now is left with.
14:43And it's going ahead and do whatever it wants.
14:46Also on the flip side is what we saw the recent report,
14:49where I think at least 34 ships have crossed, despite the U.S. blockade,
14:53they've gone ahead anyway.
14:55So it doesn't, it makes no sense, this whole blockade by the U.S.
15:00Their Iran position is very clear.
15:02They say, you lift the blockade, we'll come for talks.
15:05No, I'm not sure why Trump, I mean, the U.S. presidency can't go ahead with that.
15:10Number two, the main point, which I'm told by seafarers,
15:14is that much of the Iranian activities is going on within Iranian waters.
15:19So there is a, one is, it's water.
15:22The number two, what the U.S. is doing is completely against international law.
15:26It's against any law of the sea.
15:29So I do get that you need to pressure Iran into coming into, you know, into negotiations.
15:35I get that.
15:36That is the U.S. position.
15:37But somewhere, the mediator, I mean, where is the mediator in all this?
15:41You know, to get these two extreme positions together and get our oil, finally.
15:47Yep, but where is the mediator?
15:49And we'll talk about mediator in just a moment.
15:51I mean, if you mean that honest broker or Dalal Pakistan,
15:55you know, we can talk about Pakistan now being criticized in Iran,
16:00especially about being a U.S. lackey and peddling only U.S. agenda.
16:04Yeah, but since you've mentioned it, Craig Kafura, can I take that question to you?
16:10Is Pakistan an honest broker or is there merit in the Iranian criticism
16:16that Pakistan is only peddling U.S. agenda?
16:19It wants Iran to blink.
16:21It wants Iran to buckle.
16:23And Iran says we won the war.
16:24Why should we blink?
16:25Why should we buckle?
16:27Well, I can see why Iran would say that.
16:29But I think most countries in the world at this point would prefer that Iran agree to these sort of
16:35U.S. conditions.
16:36They would like to see the flow of oil restored.
16:39I think Pakistan is more likely to blame Iran than they are to blame the United States.
16:43But I also agree that this is not a good position for the United States to be in, right?
16:48The U.S. is now in the position of trying to project power right up against the coast of Iran.
16:52Iran does not have the ability to project power very far from its borders,
16:56but right up against its borders, that's going to be where it's going to be strongest.
17:01That said, the Trump administration, as from what I can tell from talking to people
17:04who have connections inside the administration,
17:07they feel that having this blockade out in the Gulf of Oman gives them the real negotiating leverage
17:13that they're looking for.
17:14They think this will force Iran to the table.
17:16But when they get Iran to the table, it's a little unclear if the demands the Americans are going to
17:21make
17:21are things the Iranians can agree to, or even who they're going to be negotiating with.
17:26And if Iran agrees to negotiate, do they have assurances that their negotiators won't be killed upon return?
17:32The U.S. does have a bad habit recently of using talks to build up military force to launch additional
17:38strikes.
17:38And we've seen reporting that additional carrier forces are being deployed to the region near Iran,
17:44potentially for another round of strikes, or maybe just to relieve an existing carrier.
17:47But all of that has to be going through the Iranian leaders' minds right now.
17:52What is your reading of these reports?
17:54And, you know, would you see these reports as U.S. pressure tactics?
17:59Because open source information and intelligence seems to indicate
18:03there are multiple C-17 Globemasters that are flying virtually non-stop,
18:09you know, mid-air refuelers, getting those additional fighter jets in,
18:14more men, more material, more warships, all of them coming into this region.
18:19So is the United States preparing for Epic Fury 2.0?
18:23Is that your reading, or is this just pressure tactics on Iran?
18:27It may simply be pressure tactics.
18:29I also think some of this is the need to resupply, refuel, rearm the ships that have already been deployed.
18:35I mean, we've seen reports from some of the U.S. carrier groups that they're starting to run low
18:40on some of the supplies they shipped out with.
18:42They need to go back home to report, refuel, restock.
18:45And the U.S. has burned through a huge quantity of its interceptor ammunition already.
18:50We're seeing reports that it's going to take several years for the U.S. to replenish those stocks.
18:53So I think some of what we're seeing is the need to replenish the forces that are already deployed,
18:59potentially signal to Iran that if they don't agree to U.S. terms, there'll be further strikes.
19:03But if I'm Iran, I may feel that I've weathered the worst of this storm.
19:07I'm not sure what the U.S. is going to do additionally in terms of airstrikes that it hasn't done
19:13already.
19:13I figure the U.S. has already run through its full target list at this point.
19:17It can bomb the rubble some more, but I don't think that's going to put a real dent in Iranian
19:20military capabilities.
19:22On the contrary, the world continues to suffer.
19:25Iran, Dr. Tarakarta, Iran says remove the blockade first and then create that environment for the next round of talks.
19:34Now, if President Trump were to remove the blockade for talks, would it not be a loss of face for
19:40him?
19:40Overall, does it appear that the world's strongest armed forces, the world's number one economy,
19:45has not succeeded in imposing its will on Iran?
19:49And President Trump seems to be doubling down because Iran said,
19:52we actually gave President Trump an off-ramp in that conversation with the Field Marshal Aasem Munir
19:57when we said, fine, Strait of Hormuz is open for everyone.
20:01And Aasem Munir apparently, these are only reports I'm quoting from Iran that seem to indicate,
20:06Aasem Munir said, you open the Strait of Hormuz and President Trump will remove the blockade.
20:10President Trump announced the ceasefire, but he doubled down on the blockade.
20:13So, that was loss of face for Iran.
20:15And now Iran says, first remove the blockade, only then will we think about talking.
20:20You know, I don't think either the Pakistanis got it wrong, I'm not sure.
20:25I mean, I think Pakistan has a very difficult job, all said and done.
20:29What Iran said was, we will open the Strait of Hormuz to all vessels,
20:32but with Iranian, you know, assistance.
20:35That they use this very strange word, which is Iranian, I mean, in terms of what they do.
20:41That remains.
20:42So, therefore, Trump said, okay, in that case, we are doing our own blockade.
20:45But the trouble is, this is, like the previous speaker said,
20:50you know, after a while, bombing, the effect plateaus.
20:53You can't go on bombing a country.
20:55It sort of, it just loses effect.
20:58Number two, the critical thing,
21:00and I think what Trump is also tweeting,
21:03is that you don't know who's in charge.
21:05Now, if it is the IRGC which is calling the shots,
21:09in that case, the Pezeshkian crowd don't have,
21:12I mean, the very fact that they could get killed even in Iran is a possibility.
21:16But how to get an off-ramp here is difficult,
21:20because finally, I don't know what Trump wants.
21:23Nobody knows.
21:24If Iran comes to the negotiating table,
21:26and if they tell them, you will never, ever, ever have a nuclear capability,
21:31that is what they've already said, that we will give up.
21:34They've already said that on the 27th of February.
21:36Yeah, they've already said that.
21:36So, what do they want?
21:38And as an NPT signatory, Iran has a right to enrich.
21:42So, where is this going?
21:44What is the end objective?
21:45In that case, you can go ahead with mediation and say,
21:48okay, you stop this, we stop, and let's talk.
21:51But either way, it's a loss, because the US Navy,
21:55to go into the Strait of Hormuz is a huge risk.
21:59True.
21:59They've got submarines, they've got a bunch of things there.
22:02So, they can't go in there, so they stay out.
22:05And like we said, the ships continue to pass.
22:08Especially the undersea drones, the biggest challenge,
22:11these fast attack crafts are a huge challenge.
22:13Greg Kafura, President Trump says he's ordered the Navy
22:16to shoot small boats laying mines in the Strait of Hormuz.
22:20He claims mines are being cleared by the Navy,
22:22or words to that effect.
22:24But is the US Navy removing mines inside the Strait of Hormuz?
22:30Or is he being economical with the truth?
22:32What is your reading of it?
22:35I would definitely say that he's being economical with the truth.
22:38I don't think the US is currently attempting mine-clearing operations
22:41inside the Strait of Hormuz.
22:43The Pentagon yesterday was telling Congress
22:45that it will take six months to clear the Strait of any mines
22:47that have been laid.
22:48Mine-clearing takes a very long time.
22:50The US does not have extensive minesweeping capabilities.
22:53In the last time that we've needed to clear mines
22:56out of near Iranian waters in the two Gulf Wars,
23:01we brought in other countries to help us with that.
23:03Especially Japan.
23:04Japan has great minesweeping capabilities.
23:06That would probably need to happen again.
23:08But none of that's going to happen
23:09until we have a ceasefire that lasts for quite a long time,
23:13until the blockades are lifted.
23:15Any talk of clearing the Strait of mines at this point
23:17is a little bit premature.
23:18And I do wonder if that's one of the reasons
23:21why Iran was wording its statements
23:24about the opening of the Strait so carefully.
23:27That ships may need to pass in very, very specific lanes
23:31until they can ensure that there aren't mines floating in there.
23:34Because the last thing Iran would want to do
23:36is reach a ceasefire, reach an agreement,
23:39go through all of that pain and trouble,
23:40and then have a ship accidentally hit a mine
23:42that they forgot about or that it drifted off.
23:44And I think Director Trump is exactly right.
23:47It's very difficult to understand
23:48who the US is going to negotiate with in Tehran.
23:51And it's very difficult for the Iranians to know
23:53what the Trump administration actually wants.
23:55Like, what are the actual feasible demands
23:57that the Americans are going to make?
23:59So, let me then put this question to you.
24:03Are we seeing controlled escalation on both sides?
24:08And are both the United States and Iran
24:11getting into that escalation trap?
24:14Iran is escalating by charging money
24:16from ships that are crossing the Strait.
24:19America is escalating.
24:21And could the next escalation,
24:23if it's not just aerial bombardment,
24:26mean those US Marines,
24:28the two amphibious, you know,
24:30Marine Expeditionary Units that are getting there,
24:3211 and 31,
24:34they take control,
24:36try and take control
24:37either of the mouth of the Strait of Hormuz,
24:39some of the islands,
24:40if not the Khark Island.
24:41And is Iran oil the ultimate objective of this war?
24:46I would be surprised
24:48if the United States commits ground forces,
24:51even as a Marine Expeditionary Unit
24:54to claim an island or other operations like that,
24:56it would open the US up
24:57to much greater levels of casualties.
24:59And sticking Marines on an island
25:00in the middle of the Strait
25:03is just a resupply nightmare
25:05for the United States.
25:06They're going to be under constant attack
25:08by Iranian drones and missiles.
25:10You'd spend a lot of munitions
25:11just trying to keep them safe and supplied.
25:14It's possible
25:15because with this administration,
25:16many things are possible.
25:18But if you look at the polling
25:19that we've done
25:20and that others have done
25:21in the United States,
25:22that is absolutely not something
25:23the American public wants to see.
25:24They're already not supportive of this war.
25:26They already are rating the president
25:28very low on dealing with Iran
25:30and dealing with foreign policy
25:31and especially dealing with the economy.
25:33They want this war to be over.
25:34They didn't support it from the beginning.
25:35And they're not going to support further escalation,
25:37especially if it involves
25:39American Marines getting killed in Iran.
25:43Tarakarta, the U.S. thinking
25:45that each day that Iran's unable to export its oil,
25:49it loses close to $500 million a day.
25:52Will that force Iran to negotiate?
25:55Because the Pentagon appears to have denied
25:57those reports that seem to indicate,
25:59those Russian reports that seem to indicate
26:01that 35 or 40 ships had sailed through
26:04despite the blockade.
26:06America says that's not possible.
26:09I don't know because, see,
26:11the coastal waters are very, so far,
26:14we've not seen any interdiction
26:16along the coastal waters.
26:18And if they're moving along the coast,
26:20then it's entirely possible.
26:21I mean, I've heard rumors about oil
26:24going into Pakistan, for instance,
26:25to their most extreme port,
26:27which is near Jivani.
26:29Now, whether that is true or not,
26:31again, I don't know.
26:32But that is, technically speaking,
26:34if you hug the coast,
26:35you can come right down
26:36and you carry on, right?
26:38Number two is that whole,
26:40the transit to China,
26:42which is entirely overland.
26:44Now, whether that is going on,
26:46I mean, I'm pretty sure it is.
26:47Because we saw that couple of months back,
26:49we saw that those trains were moving.
26:52Okay, so they're not getting
26:53as much income as they would have.
26:55It is a strangulation effort, no doubt.
26:58But the question, I think,
27:00now what we need to go ahead is,
27:01what is the common ground here?
27:03I don't see any of you.
27:05It's finally who blinks first.
27:07And like, I think we emphasized,
27:10the Iranians really have nothing to lose.
27:12They'll just go on doing this.
27:13It's a low cost, effective operation.
27:16Whereas the US has this massive armada,
27:19which, as we said,
27:20is difficult to supply.
27:22People are running low on their,
27:24you know, on food, etc.
27:25It's a very difficult thing.
27:26To avoid, to get that off ramp is,
27:30well, I'm sorry to re-emphasize,
27:32is where the mediator's job comes in.
27:34But again, the difficulty is,
27:36who do you mediate with?
27:38Oh, absolutely.
27:40Who the mediator is?
27:40And let's for a moment focus on the mediator.
27:43Craig Afoor and Tara Kartha, stay with me.
27:45Because do keep in mind,
27:47the first anniversary of Pakistan's
27:50state-sponsored terror attack,
27:52Pehelgaam terror attack,
27:54India launched a very strong diplomatic campaign
27:57in the United States of America
27:58to highlight Pakistan's involvement in terrorism.
28:01So the Indian embassy in Washington, D.C.,
28:04hosted an exhibition near the Capitol Hill
28:07to showcase evidence of Pakistan-based
28:10cross-border terrorism,
28:12referencing incidents from 1993 Mumbai serial blast
28:17and 257 innocent Indians were killed
28:22in the 1993 Mumbai blast.
28:25Daud Ibrahim Kaskar,
28:27an Indian Muslim,
28:29now living in Pakistan, apparently,
28:31was the mastermind who was paid
28:33by Pakistan's ISI.
28:35So Daud Ibrahim,
28:37Tiger, Memon, and Longlist.
28:38Pakistan's been involved in terror in India.
28:411993, Mumbai serial blast.
28:43257 died.
28:44To the 2025 Pehelgaam attack.
28:46And this exhibition was called
28:48The Human Cost of Terrorism.
28:50So India's ambassador to the United States,
28:53Ambassador Vinay Mohan Kwartra,
28:55said terrorism is a lived reality in India.
28:58He drew a parallel between terror attacks in India
29:01and the 9-11 terror attacks in the United States.
29:03And this initiative is actually designed
29:06to keep the focus on Pakistan-linked terror networks,
29:10including UN-designated global terrorist organizations,
29:14individuals and entities,
29:16and ensure that the international community,
29:18particularly US lawmakers,
29:21policy makers, media,
29:23that's praising Ase Munir,
29:26a radical Islamist,
29:27they are made aware
29:28of the truth on the ground.
29:31And they should know the evidence.
29:32The Indian Mission in Washington, D.C. said,
29:34we are deeply appreciative of the presence
29:37of 19 members of the US States Congress,
29:40administration officials,
29:42diaspora leaders,
29:43and other US partners,
29:44whose participation underscored
29:46a shared resolve to strengthen
29:48the India-US counter-terrorism partnership
29:51and to stand united
29:52in the global fight against terrorism
29:55in all its forms and manifestations.
29:58Listen in.
30:01This day particularly sits very heavily,
30:05weighs very heavily on all Indians
30:07and probably the rest of the world
30:09because today we mark the first anniversary,
30:13one-year anniversary,
30:14of the ghastly terror attacks of Pahlgaan
30:17in which 26 innocent Indian civilians
30:22were killed by armed terrorists
30:24in Jumun Kashmir exactly a year ago.
30:26I think acts like Pahlgaan
30:29and other terrorist attacks
30:30are acts of cowardice against the humanity.
30:34We have to fight
30:36the outrageous terrorist organizations,
30:39which on April 22nd in your country
30:45killed people on the basis
30:48of their religion in Kashmir.
30:50Our intelligence services
30:51need to work together
30:52and we need to demand
30:55that those countries
30:57that shelter terrorists,
30:59including, unfortunately, Pakistan,
31:03clamp down on these organizations
31:05when they realize the human cost
31:08which is illustrated in this exhibit here.
31:13Now, Dr. Hamid Khan Alma Shirky,
31:17strategic affairs expert,
31:18also joins us on this special broadcast.
31:21Craig Khafura and Tara Kartha
31:23are with me on this.
31:25Craig Khafura,
31:28India looks at U.S. as a partner
31:30in the war on terror.
31:32India suffered, U.S. has suffered,
31:34the world has suffered,
31:34and U.S. President Donald Trump
31:37who called Pakistan,
31:38he called Pakistan names
31:40in his first tenure,
31:40suddenly is supping with
31:43the devil himself, if I may,
31:45Pakistan's army chief Asim Muneer,
31:47you know, cozying up
31:48to a state sponsor
31:49of radical Islamist terror.
31:51How does one see that role?
31:53U.S. just trying to get its work done,
31:56pay the guy,
31:57get your work done,
31:58or is there a change of heart
32:00in the United States?
32:02I don't think there's
32:03a broad change of heart
32:05in the United States
32:05toward Pakistan
32:07or away from India.
32:08I mean, in the polling
32:09that we've done
32:10of the public,
32:11Pakistan has always been seen
32:12as more negative than India.
32:14India is more increasingly seen
32:16as a necessary partner
32:17for the United States.
32:19And I think, in general,
32:20what you see
32:21from the Trump administration
32:21in terms of engaging
32:22with other countries,
32:24they're willing to talk
32:25to quite a lot of people.
32:26I mean, this is a president
32:27who sat down with Kim Jong-un,
32:29right, for the first time
32:30a U.S. president
32:31meeting with the leader
32:32of North Korea.
32:33He'll meet with Xi Jinping.
32:35He'll meet with Vladimir Putin.
32:36So the international profile
32:38and bad reputation
32:40of someone
32:40is not an obstacle
32:41to Donald Trump
32:42sitting down
32:42and having dinner with him.
32:44I think the bigger question
32:45is what does it mean
32:46for U.S. government engagement?
32:49Perhaps Pakistan
32:49is looking to score some points
32:51by acting as a mediator,
32:52but that will only work
32:53if they can successfully mediate
32:54what I think Dr. Kartha
32:56correctly pointed out
32:57is an incredibly challenging
32:58mediation role for Pakistan.
33:01Okay.
33:02Dr. Hamid Khan,
33:04your reading of
33:06India highlighting
33:09Pakistan's involvement
33:10in terror in our country
33:11from 1993 Mumbai blast
33:13to Pehlgaam,
33:16you know, should it actually,
33:17you know, you look at Pakistan
33:19as a mediator, right?
33:21And everyone's quiet
33:22about Pakistan providing
33:23the centrifuges to Iran,
33:25the A.Q. Khan
33:26nuclear Walmart.
33:28So do you see this
33:29as an irony
33:30that your country
33:31that supplied
33:32the centrifuges
33:33to Iran
33:34is now negotiating peace?
33:37Gaurav, actually,
33:39I think this is the time
33:40for India to realize
33:42that Pakistan
33:43have shown
33:44so much,
33:45I would say,
33:46resilience,
33:47so much,
33:48I would say,
33:49maturity
33:50in terms of their diplomacy
33:51and in terms of
33:52showing the reality
33:53to the world
33:54that Pakistan
33:55was the one
33:55who was suffering
33:56from terrorism
33:58and Pakistan
33:59had been established
34:00itself
34:01as a key stabilizer
34:03factor
34:03in the South Asia.
34:05The reason is
34:06that Pakistan's
34:08narrative
34:09was very clear
34:10that do not fall
34:11into the false propaganda
34:13thrown by India
34:14since 90.
34:16It's not a...
34:18So Osama bin Laden
34:19being killed
34:20in Abbottabad
34:22is Indian propaganda?
34:24Pakistan shielding Taliban
34:25and the same Taliban
34:27killing Pakistan
34:28is Indian propaganda?
34:30Gaurav,
34:30I requested one thing
34:32that let me speak
34:33and then you can rebuttal.
34:34I don't mind.
34:34No, no, but I want you
34:35to speak the truth.
34:36I don't want you to do
34:37Pakistani propaganda
34:38on my channel
34:39that I will not permit.
34:40I'm sorry, Gaurav,
34:41you are not the one
34:42who can judge
34:43either I am speaking truth
34:44or not.
34:44Please, don't be judgmental.
34:45I am.
34:45Just take my opinion.
34:46Terrorism is a lived reality
34:48and I have suffered it.
34:50I have covered it.
34:51So don't worry.
34:52I will challenge you on that.
34:54I am here for my opinion
34:56and then you can be
34:57doing your rebuttal.
34:58Please.
34:58I will appreciate that.
35:00I always say that.
35:01Okay.
35:02The only thing is
35:03that now this is the time
35:05when America have realized
35:06that who's the one
35:08who's betraying America
35:09by joining the BRICS
35:11and on the other hand
35:12they try to be
35:13the part of Quad.
35:14On the other hand
35:15they have seen how...
35:16You are dying to join BRICS.
35:17Yes, you are on a bent knee
35:19to join BRICS
35:19but go ahead.
35:20I will not interrupt you.
35:21Go ahead.
35:21Say it.
35:22Again, please.
35:23Okay.
35:24Second thing is
35:24that the world have seen
35:26the hypocrisy
35:28of Prime Minister Modi
35:30when he has been
35:32dealing with Iran
35:34he has been dealing
35:35with on Chabahar
35:36then he was
35:37one day before
35:38he was in Israel
35:39and having hugs
35:40with Prime Minister
35:41Nathan Yahoo
35:41the biggest terrorist
35:43of the world
35:43because I didn't mind
35:44two terrorists
35:45must hug
35:46and that was
35:47the hug of Moody
35:48and Nathan Yahoo
35:48You know, this is where
35:49irony ties a suicide belt
35:51and detonates itself
35:53in Pakistan
35:53Dr. Tara Kartha
35:54where Asim Munir
35:56a radical Islamist
35:58sponsor of terrorism
35:59and these
36:01these peddlers
36:02of terrorism
36:03are
36:03you know
36:05are somehow
36:06trying to show
36:07that they are
36:07Mesihas of peace
36:09I mean
36:10the terrorist himself
36:11is going as a messenger
36:12of peace
36:13it just defies logic
36:15I'm not going
36:17to dignify
36:18his comments
36:19with an answer
36:20I don't think
36:21it makes any sense
36:22what the previous
36:23gentleman said
36:24but the point
36:25I think
36:26what we are trying
36:27to get at is
36:28that
36:28the continuous
36:30terrorism
36:31from Pakistan
36:32is factual
36:34it is recorded
36:35and it is known
36:37to everybody
36:38most recently
36:40there is a
36:40Pakistani arrested
36:41in Washington
36:43for trying
36:43to kill
36:44Jewish
36:44Jews
36:45in there
36:46so
36:46this is a reality
36:48I think
36:48which Pakistan
36:49has to accept
36:49and you deal
36:50with it
36:51you know
36:51you deal
36:51with it
36:52I'm sure
36:52you can
36:53eventually
36:53no I will not
36:55let you lie
36:55on my channel
36:56that
36:57just be very
36:57clear about that
36:58it's not about
36:59I'm not
37:00letting you lie
37:01because I also
37:02want to know
37:02from Craig
37:03Kafura
37:03if the US
37:05government
37:05has forgotten
37:06if the US
37:07government
37:07Craig Kafura
37:08has forgotten
37:08that Pakistan
37:09was part of
37:10the problem
37:11the C-130
37:13America provided
37:14C-130 aircraft
37:15flew the centrifuges
37:17to Iran
37:18the centrifuges
37:20that were used
37:21to make
37:21the highly enriched
37:23uranium
37:23and the problem
37:24that you're grappling
37:25with today sir
37:26were created
37:27by Pakistan
37:28just a couple
37:29of decades ago
37:32yeah again
37:33I don't think
37:33the Trump administration
37:34has that long
37:35of a memory
37:35and in part
37:36because the Trump
37:37administration's
37:38fairly understaffed
37:39in a lot of these roles
37:40but Trump
37:41will sit down
37:41with whoever
37:42he thinks
37:42he can do
37:43a deal with
37:43so if Trump
37:44thinks that
37:45Pakistan can
37:46get him
37:46what he wants
37:47with regards
37:48to Iran
37:48then he'll sit
37:49down with
37:49the Pakistanis
37:49if he thinks
37:50that he needs
37:51to talk to
37:52Modi
37:53for deals
37:53in Asia
37:54on the quad
37:55then he'll
37:55talk to Modi
37:56on deals
37:56in the quad
37:57Trump is going
37:58to sit down
37:58with anybody
38:00that's a strength
38:00I think in some ways
38:01but also a bit
38:02of a weakness
38:02because he often
38:03comes to the table
38:04without much
38:04of a plan
38:05again
38:06it's unclear
38:07what the United States
38:08wants from these talks
38:08it's unclear
38:09what the United States
38:09objectives are
38:10so yes
38:12the US
38:12I think does have
38:13a bit of a short memory
38:14on some of these things
38:15at least for the Trump
38:16administration
38:17I can't speak to Congress
38:18though
38:18Congress tends to have
38:19a much longer memory
38:20on this stuff
38:21and if you're talking
38:22about arms sales
38:23if you're talking
38:24about some of these
38:24longer term relationships
38:25Congress is really
38:26where the power
38:28sits
38:28it controls the money
38:30and if you're looking
38:31at sort of the long term
38:32future of the US
38:33Pakistan
38:33and US India
38:34relationships
38:34I would look a lot
38:35more at Congress
38:36and maybe a little bit
38:37less at the current
38:38White House
38:38oh absolutely
38:40because Dr. Tara Kartha
38:41what needs to be
38:41highlighted internationally
38:43you know including
38:44for the benefit
38:45of Dr. Saab
38:46who's joined us
38:46from Pakistan
38:47is the AQ Khan
38:50terror Walmart
38:51or the nuclear Walmart
38:53they provided
38:54the centrifuges
38:55to Iran
38:56and in a way
38:57it's karma
38:59today if the US
39:01is paying
39:01it's paying a price
39:03for its past sins
39:05absolutely
39:05I mean I think
39:06we've covered
39:07the AQ Khan network
39:08in extreme detail
39:10when I was in service
39:11so we know
39:12that network
39:13thoroughly
39:13number two
39:14is the fact
39:15that that network
39:16could never
39:17ever ever
39:18have operated
39:19without the
39:20complete support
39:21of the Pakistan army
39:22it can't happen
39:23yes
39:23so all that stuff
39:24happened
39:25and now
39:26the joke
39:26of the whole thing
39:27is that
39:28Iran and Pakistan
39:30were bombing each other
39:32just what
39:32what was
39:33last year
39:34oh absolutely
39:35last year
39:35missiles were flying
39:36between Iran
39:37and Pakistan
39:37two days ago
39:38was a Jaisal Adel
39:40which was captured
39:41now what I'm trying
39:42to say
39:43I mean I want to say
39:44this to the Pakistanis
39:45is that if you can
39:46bring down terrorism
39:48in your own country
39:49I mean go with it
39:50you know
39:50surely
39:51everybody can come
39:52together
39:53it's a curse
39:54that's what the
39:54ambassador is saying
39:56in Washington
39:56this creates
39:58it's a cause
39:59for humanity
40:00it's a cause
40:01for your country
40:01it is a cause
40:03and you know
40:04Pakistan will just
40:04keep blaming
40:05somebody else
40:06instead of
40:06looking within
40:07Doc Saab
40:08I'm sorry
40:09I've run out of
40:09time on this
40:10part of the show
40:12and Dr. Khan
40:13thank you very much
40:14for joining me
40:19in the armed forces
40:21virtually everything
40:22is classified
40:24and that is why
40:25the book written
40:27by former chief
40:28of the army staff
40:30General Manoj Mukund
40:31Narwane
40:31becomes very interesting
40:32the curious
40:33and the classified
40:34General Naravane
40:35joins us
40:35on this special broadcast
40:37General
40:37welcome
40:38thank you Gaurav
40:39always a pleasure
40:40to talk to you
40:41so you've been
40:42in the chakra view
40:43when it comes to
40:45conflict
40:46combat
40:48commanding the army
40:49being army chief
40:50and also writing
40:51this is your second
40:53published book
40:54sir
40:54tell us more about
40:55the curious
40:56and the classified
40:57because in the army
40:58except of course
40:59perhaps your name
41:00rank
41:00and number
41:01everything else
41:02is classified
41:03so
41:05it was in fact
41:06an interesting
41:06choice of the title
41:09because when I was
41:10formulating these
41:11stories in my mind
41:12and sounding them
41:14out to my friends
41:15and other
41:16colleagues
41:16even in the army
41:19many of them
41:19said we don't
41:20know about this
41:21so it is not
41:22that it was
41:23anything really
41:24classified about it
41:25it was classified
41:26in the sense
41:27that people didn't
41:28know
41:29and therefore
41:30we said
41:30let us bring it
41:32to the knowledge
41:32of the larger
41:33public
41:34these little known
41:35vignets
41:37which form part
41:38of our customs
41:39traditions
41:40which are
41:41rooted in military
41:42history
41:44so that more
41:45and more people
41:45come to know
41:46what makes our
41:47army tick
41:47and it is not
41:49only army
41:49there are stories
41:50in this
41:52from an air force
41:54and naval
41:54perspective also
41:55so it's
41:56all incomplete
41:57and curious
41:58because they are
41:58actually curious
41:59you would never
42:00have thought of it
42:01in your wildest
42:01dreams
42:02that something
42:03like this
42:03would be there
42:04so because
42:05I am very curious
42:06to know
42:06and I asked
42:07that question
42:07you know
42:08why do you have
42:09an arrow
42:10in front of
42:12you know
42:12your vehicle numbers
42:13for example
42:14the BA number
42:15the broad arrow
42:16number
42:17tell us about that
42:18because I believe
42:18that's also a chapter
42:19here
42:19so that is indeed
42:21a chapter
42:21and of course
42:23the wits say
42:24that you know
42:24army people are
42:25so you know
42:26they have their
42:27brains in their
42:28knees
42:28so the arrow
42:29is to say
42:29this way up
42:31so that the vehicle
42:32is not upside down
42:33of course
42:34that is the myth
42:35but all these
42:37stories in this book
42:38are rooted in history
42:39it is not just
42:40an anecdote
42:41of recent times
42:43and during
42:47the monarchy
42:48in England
42:50some king
42:51James
42:52or I forget
42:52often now
42:53all equipment
42:55which belonged
42:56to the crown
42:56was marked
42:57with an arrow
42:58with a broad arrow
43:00whether it is
43:02a cannonball
43:02or whether it is
43:03clothing
43:04even clothing
43:05even clothing
43:06even trees
43:07as far away
43:08as Canada
43:09were marked
43:10with a broad arrow
43:11indicating that
43:12this now belongs
43:13to the crown
43:14because those trees
43:15were used in shipbuilding
43:17and that is how
43:18that legacy
43:19has carried on
43:20though now
43:21it is only used
43:22for marking vehicles
43:23in the Indian army
43:25and some other
43:26commonwealth countries
43:27so now that
43:28we are not
43:28a monarchy
43:30and now that
43:31you know
43:32we are an independent
43:32country
43:33and the prime minister
43:34does talk about
43:35decolonizing
43:36the mine
43:37do we still need
43:38BA numbers
43:39in military vehicles
43:40so the BA number
43:42is not just a number
43:44but it is a
43:45legally recognized number
43:46which is allotted
43:47by the army
43:49and the army
43:51itself is like
43:51a RTO
43:52one branch
43:53of the army
43:54which gives the numbers
43:55to all service vehicles
43:57even for
43:58air force
43:58and navy
43:59and that
44:01vehicle number
44:02is applicable
44:04pan India
44:05so it is a sort of
44:06RTO also
44:07so and that is
44:08what it is
44:08continuing
44:09but yes
44:10we can drop
44:11the arrow
44:12and it will not
44:13really make a
44:13difference
44:14to the overall
44:15numbering scheme
44:16true
44:16true
44:17so and you
44:18have a very
44:19unique
44:19style of writing
44:21I wonder if it's
44:22hereditary
44:23because your father
44:24being you know
44:26an air force officer
44:27was also a military
44:27historian
44:28he has written
44:29about forts of
44:29Rajasthan
44:30and Maharashtra
44:31forts of Maharashtra
44:32mainly
44:33forts of Maharashtra
44:34extensively
44:34and you also
44:36write and you've
44:37written military
44:38history
44:38and contemporary
44:40military history
44:40so let me
44:41for a moment
44:42take you
44:43to the contemporary
44:44military history
44:45part
44:46this is your
44:47second published
44:48book
44:48tell us more
44:49about the
44:50unpublished book
44:52well there's
44:53nothing much to
44:54tell because
44:55over the last
44:56two years
44:56so many people
44:58have talked about
44:58it and so many
44:59people have asked
45:00the same question
45:01that what is the
45:03status of the book
45:04and I've always
45:05said that the
45:06status is that
45:07it is with the
45:08publisher and
45:09under review by
45:10the M.O.D.
45:11and they are in
45:12contact with each
45:13other and as
45:14and when the
45:15clearance is given
45:16for its publication
45:17it will see the
45:19light of day
45:20my job was to
45:21write the book
45:22and I gained
45:23great satisfaction
45:24in writing it
45:25and so now
45:26the ball
45:27is in the
45:28publisher's court
45:29to take the
45:31matter forward
45:31but are the
45:32publishers and
45:33the army in
45:34touch or
45:34whichever branch
45:35of the army
45:36or the government
45:37does classification
45:39declassification
45:41what is there
45:42in that
45:42according to you
45:43that perhaps
45:45is unpalatable
45:46yes they are
45:46very much in
45:47touch
45:50and I have
45:51written this
45:52whole book
45:52from my
45:53perspective
45:54it was never
45:55my intention
45:55to write a
45:56memoir
45:57it just
45:57happened
45:58so it is not
45:59based on any
46:00notes
46:02or access to
46:04any official
46:04records
46:05so it is based
46:06on as I said
46:07my recollection
46:09of events
46:09and those
46:11recollections
46:11could be
46:11different from
46:12the recollections
46:13or the
46:13perception of
46:14others
46:14so perhaps
46:15yes there is
46:16a requirement
46:17of telling
46:18various divergent
46:22views and
46:23perceptions of
46:24that and that
46:24is bound to
46:25happen in any
46:27sort of story
46:30that you
46:31narrate
46:31even in normal
46:34day to day
46:35life if you
46:35ask two people
46:36what was that
46:37person wearing
46:37they will probably
46:38give you two
46:39different answers
46:40but that is
46:42how things
46:43happen
46:43so yes
46:44if there is
46:45a requirement
46:46of review
46:46there is
46:47nothing wrong
46:47in it
46:49what is your
46:50perception
46:50if I may
46:51of Raksha
46:53Mantri
46:53Rajnath Singh
46:53saying
46:54jo uchit
46:56lage
46:56wo karo
46:57ya jo uchit
46:58samjho
46:58wo karo
46:58words to that
46:59effect
46:59no I think
47:01it shows the
47:02great confidence
47:03that the
47:03government had
47:04in the army
47:05and its hierarchy
47:07and in the
47:07service chief
47:08that they knew
47:10that whatever
47:10decision will
47:11be taken
47:11would be taken
47:13keeping all
47:13factors in mind
47:14and at the
47:15end of the day
47:16it is a military
47:17operation
47:17it is a military
47:18strategy which
47:19has to be applied
47:20within the
47:21overall framework
47:22of the national
47:23strategy and
47:24policy
47:25so there is
47:26nothing
47:29I won't use
47:30the word wrong
47:30I think it is
47:31the correct way
47:32of having done
47:33things
47:33that you have
47:34given the
47:35complete operational
47:37freedom
47:37to the person
47:38who is best
47:40suited to
47:41exercise
47:41that freedom
47:42so unfortunately
47:45I think people
47:46are misinterpreting
47:47that
47:49to say that
47:50it is sort of
47:51abrogation
47:53it is not
47:53abrogation at all
47:54and I reiterate
47:55it only shows
47:56that the government
47:58has full confidence
47:59in its armed forces
48:00it has had full
48:01confidence earlier
48:02it has full
48:03confidence now
48:05and I am sure
48:05it will have it
48:06in the future
48:07also
48:08because I was
48:09covering Operation
48:10Snow Leopard
48:11in Ladakh
48:11that time
48:12and you know
48:13I don't know
48:14if that is the
48:14correct version
48:15whatever I have
48:15read in public
48:16domain
48:18I thought you
48:19were quite
48:19aggressive on
48:20ground
48:20weren't you
48:21I mean
48:22you as
48:23the army chief
48:24General Joshi
48:25as army commander
48:26and that entire
48:27you know
48:27the soldiers
48:28on ground
48:30yes so we
48:31we did whatever
48:31we had to do
48:32within the
48:33you know
48:33constraints
48:34and we have
48:35various
48:37protocols in place
48:38and how to
48:39deal with the
48:39PLA
48:40so within those
48:42frameworks
48:42we tried
48:43to do our best
48:44and yes
48:45at the end of the
48:46day we did
48:47gain the upper
48:48hand
48:49you had the
48:50upper hand
48:52there is
48:53there is some
48:53commentary that
48:54we've lost
48:55territory
48:55we gained the
48:57upper hand
48:57and that is
48:58why if you
48:59and this is
49:00nothing to do
49:01with the book
49:01this is very
49:02well reported
49:04and it was
49:05all on TV
49:06channels
49:06the Chinese
49:07dismantling their
49:08bunkers
49:08and going back
49:10and there is
49:11nothing classified
49:11in that
49:12when it is all
49:13in the open
49:14domain
49:14I am curious
49:16and some of
49:17that information
49:18is classified
49:19so therefore
49:19it was definitely
49:20that we had
49:22the upper hand
49:22as well as
49:24that the end
49:25state of that
49:26portion of
49:27the operations
49:29Snow Leopard
49:30is concerned
49:30so as Army
49:32Chief
49:32you are confident
49:33that during
49:35your tenure
49:36we haven't
49:37lost territory
49:38absolutely
49:42and overall
49:43how are we
49:44geared to
49:45deal with
49:46the situation
49:47like that
49:47I mean is the
49:47government
49:48the political
49:49leadership
49:49the military
49:50leadership
49:50armed forces
49:51and the nation
49:52are we on
49:52the same page
49:53yes we are
49:54definitely on
49:54the same page
49:55you know the
49:56armed forces
49:58are always
50:01looking at
50:01the threat
50:02perception
50:03you are always
50:04looking at
50:04what new
50:05challenges are
50:06surfacing
50:06and to deal
50:08and to deal with
50:08those challenges
50:09what changes
50:10need to be done
50:12whether in force
50:13structuring
50:13whether in acquisition
50:15of new weapons
50:16and all that of course
50:17requires governmental
50:19clearance
50:19so it is a continuous
50:20interactive process
50:22it is not something
50:23which stops
50:24and we will say
50:25that okay
50:25today
50:26we are prepared to meet
50:27all challenges
50:29challenges will develop
50:30probably we will need
50:32some equipment
50:32to be inducted
50:34so that we can deal
50:35with the challenge
50:35as we envisage it
50:37today
50:38but tomorrow
50:39it might be a different
50:40ball game altogether
50:42so it is
50:42a dynamic
50:44kind of a situation
50:45and in this situation
50:47of course
50:48the government
50:49is always
50:51charged with the
50:52security of the nation
50:53and that is their
50:54first priority
50:55everything else
50:56comes next
50:57so why
50:58should anyone believe
50:59that the armed forces
51:01are getting
51:02you know
51:03the short shift
51:05Sir
51:06we have seen
51:07how conflict
51:07is changing
51:08almost across the world
51:09you know
51:10the Russia-Ukraine war
51:12the current situation
51:14between the United States
51:15and Iran
51:17I know I am taking you
51:18away from the book
51:19but since I have you here
51:20I want to ask you
51:22what are the biggest
51:23lessons learnt
51:24in a conflict
51:25that is still on
51:25I mean the world's
51:26most powerful
51:27armed forces
51:28and economy
51:28versus an Iran
51:29that was facing
51:30sanctions for so many
51:31decades
51:31what is your reading
51:33sir
51:34the greatest lesson
51:35is that no two wars
51:36are the same
51:38but unfortunately
51:40you can draw lessons
51:41and experience
51:42only from the last war
51:44that you have fought
51:46but the next one
51:47always brings a surprise
51:49so the side
51:50which is able to adapt
51:51faster to that
51:52changing environment
51:53is the one
51:54which will prevail
51:55and for that
51:56that mental flexibility
51:58is required
51:58the flexibility
51:59is required
52:01at the level
52:02of the nation
52:02to be able
52:03to quickly transform
52:04its processes
52:06and its production
52:07facilities
52:08to meet those
52:09new challenges
52:11so in the second world war
52:14for example
52:14there is a book
52:15called Freedom's Forge
52:17how the industrial complex
52:20which was making cars
52:21suddenly started making tanks
52:25and aircraft
52:26you know
52:26that industrial capacity
52:28which was built up
52:28similarly today
52:30if today it is drones
52:31every second factory
52:34in India
52:34should be able
52:35to make drones
52:35and we should be able
52:37to churn out
52:3740,000 drones a month
52:39so that is how
52:41how will you
52:42you know
52:42change and adapt
52:44and adapt faster
52:47to these
52:48you know
52:48emerging trends
52:50in technology
52:51in forms of warfare
52:52that will decide
52:54the outcome
52:54so we need to keep
52:56adapting
52:56and the whole of the nation
52:58approach is required
52:59adapting
52:59evolving
53:00you know
53:00both
53:01evolve and adapt
53:03and adopt
53:04and adopt
53:05those new things
53:06into your systems
53:07sir for joining me
53:09here on this
53:09India Today special broadcast
53:10many thanks
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