- 10 hours ago
In an exclusive interview with India Today, senior parliamentarian and former diplomat Shashi Tharoor discussed the US-Iran ceasefire, Pakistan's role in mediation and much more.
Category
🗞
NewsTranscript
00:04West Asia is on edge. The Iran war has pushed the region to a breaking point.
00:10Oil, security, global stability, all hanging in the balance.
00:14But here's the twist. The diplomatic channel that may be shaping a ceasefire
00:18isn't coming from global power centers, but from Islamabad.
00:23In his latest editorial, Shachi Tharoor argues that India must stand for peace,
00:28whoever the broker may be. But does that realism come at a strategic cost?
00:33Is India choosing principle or accepting marginalization?
00:38Joining me now is senior parliamentarian, former diplomat,
00:42and someone who has consistently articulated India's global voice, Dr. Shashi Tharoor himself.
00:47Dr. Tharoor, really appreciate your time. You argue, sir, that India must support peace,
00:52whoever the broker may be. But when broker, that broker is Pakistan in the middle of the Iran war,
01:00are you asking India to set aside decades of strategic distrust?
01:06Yeah, well, the fact is that the disgust and the distrust are both absolutely justified.
01:11But in this particular context, I think a more statesman-like attitude is called for.
01:18And there's no doubt about that, because the fact is this war has actually hurt us,
01:23hurt us very badly, hurt us in the kitchen, hurt us at the petrol station,
01:27hurt us in our factories in many cases.
01:29And it is something which is not in the interest of the global south,
01:33whose voice we have rightly, I think, tried to represent on the world stage.
01:39And so we should also understand that Pakistan may not even be the real initiator of this peace.
01:46There is every reason to imagine that Pakistan is kind of a diplomatic fig leaf,
01:50because the prime minister of Pakistan issued a tweet in which he clearly was pasting,
01:57cutting and pasting a draft sent from Washington,
01:59using the same language that President Trump's communications was using.
02:03But even then, it doesn't matter, because for us,
02:07we have a sense of regional responsibility, we have strategic restraint,
02:11and we are the voice of the interests of the global south,
02:14which is hurting from the continuation of this war.
02:17In other words, for us, peace is in our national interest.
02:21And that's why I think we should welcome,
02:25as the government has welcomed the peace,
02:26and has welcomed it without any particular reference to Pakistan,
02:30but has welcomed the fact that a peace is taking place,
02:32and a negotiation is going to be happening in Islamabad from tomorrow.
02:35That's also part of this process.
02:37I think we should act with the kind of dignity that our civilization, I think, calls for.
02:42Dr. Tharoor, you describe in your editorial that Islamabad channel as effective.
02:48Is this also an admission that India is not central to shaping outcomes in this conflict?
02:53Is India then reacting to events rather than driving them?
02:57No, currently on the Iran war, we have kept open lines of communication with all parties,
03:04that is, with Iran, with the U.S., and with the affected countries in the Gulf,
03:09and that's the right thing to do.
03:10As far as India is concerned, after all,
03:14we have a certain priority that we must give to regional stability and to our own interests.
03:20And I think by championing peace in general,
03:22without condemning either belligerence, something which I have supported publicly in the past,
03:29India has reinforced its identity as a responsible global power,
03:33which values the stability of the international order.
03:36And that is the role that I think India stands for.
03:39Whether Pakistan has certain advantages in the present context,
03:44including perhaps a willingness to provide that diplomatic fig leaf
03:47to allow both the U.S. and Iran to de-escalate without seeming to back down directly to one another,
03:55if Pakistan can play that role in a way that others can't,
03:58why should we resent that?
04:00Peace is in our interest, as I said.
04:02And I would argue that really we can take a very relaxed view about,
04:06relaxed may be the wrong word,
04:07but a very calm and mature view about all that.
04:10Pakistan has developed certain special links with the Oval Office,
04:14and Pakistan itself is a neighbor of Iran's and has a 40 million share population
04:19and a 900 kilometer shared border.
04:21All of these gives Pakistan certain assets in this particular context
04:26that is special and unique to Pakistan.
04:29I don't think we need to see that in any way in relation to us.
04:33Life is not always a zero-sum game.
04:35It's not as if what they're doing on Iran is the equivalent
04:38of they're doing a terrorist attack on Pahlgah.
04:40There they have a zero-sum calculation.
04:42When it comes to the Iran war, peace is in our interest too.
04:46Okay.
04:46You have said that de-escalation serves India's energy and economic interests.
04:53But should India be content as a beneficiary
04:57rather than a participant shaping the outcome?
05:00Well, I mean, I don't think we're going to invite ourselves
05:02to somebody else's negotiations.
05:03So we're not a participant.
05:05But what we should do is we should watch it very carefully.
05:07And we should, of course, be conscious that while we wanted to succeed,
05:12the effort could also fail.
05:14I mean, already we've had the setback in Lebanon
05:17where the Israelis say the peace doesn't cover Lebanon
05:19and the Pakistanis claim it does.
05:21And all of the Iran says they thought it would cover Lebanon too.
05:24So all of this is already a potential train wreck in the negotiation.
05:29And on top of that, you know, there could be Iranian intransigence.
05:33There could be American politics coming in the way.
05:35The Israelis might be furious.
05:38And you never know if the peace plan is going to work.
05:40We should watch it.
05:41I'm not saying that we should in any way seek to participate,
05:46but we should watch it.
05:46And if it fails, then because that's a tragedy and a setback
05:50for the whole region and for the global south as a whole,
05:52we should analyze it and see if it leaves room
05:55for any different kind of effort on our part.
05:58We also have a unique relationship with the U.S.
06:01We also have historical ties with Iran.
06:04Not the same as Pakistan, but we have them too.
06:06So if we are able to offer the approach of let's try something else,
06:11we should be prepared to do so.
06:13But I'm not suggesting we should leap in where angels fear to tread.
06:17I think we should be watching it, deciding for ourselves
06:20whether there is anything useful we can do,
06:22because we are conscious of the value of our strategic autonomy
06:25and we are conscious that we are a nation,
06:27that it historically had a capacity to play the bridge builder.
06:31So all of these are reasons why we should watch this carefully
06:34and without any criticism or disparagement,
06:38knowing very well that peace is in our interest.
06:41Before I speak about the global south,
06:43because you have made a compelling argument for that,
06:46let me ask you about another point that you have made in your editorial.
06:49You say that the zero-sum mindset,
06:53you have cautioned against a zero-sum mindset, Dr. Tharoor.
06:57But given China's backing of Pakistan in this process,
07:00does supporting the Islamabad channel indirectly validate
07:05a China-Pakistan strategic axis in West Asian diplomacy?
07:09Now, I didn't say we should necessarily support it.
07:13I said we should watch it carefully and we should not disparage it,
07:17because any means of achieving peace should not be opposed by India.
07:21Peace is essential.
07:22But for us to acknowledge the reality that Pakistan has a so-called old-weather alliance with China,
07:29don't forget that the foreign minister of Pakistan,
07:32after receiving the foreign ministers of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Turkey and Islamabad,
07:37then flew to Beijing to brief the Chinese.
07:40So there is very clearly an existing alliance and partnership there.
07:44That's not news.
07:45That's not a setback for us.
07:46We've already known about it for years.
07:48OK, you know, let's talk about the global south focus
07:51that you have put firmly in your article.
07:53You have argued that India must speak for the global south
07:56without condemning either side.
07:59In a conflict involving active military escalation,
08:03can such calibrated neutrality still be seen as principled leadership
08:07or does it then risk appearing opportunistic?
08:12No, I mean, I'm certainly of the view that our silence
08:16has given us a certain amount of credibility
08:18because we haven't condemned either belligerent.
08:20The prime minister has stayed in touch with the Americans,
08:23with the Iranians and with the Gulf countries that are all affected.
08:25And that makes that sensible because we are a voice for the stability of the international order.
08:31But we can't just remain silent, for example, if this peace effort breaks down.
08:36And even if the peace effort succeeds,
08:39I'm not keen on India now just coming across as a passive observer
08:43of all of these developments.
08:45I think we really now need to say that as a voice of the global south,
08:49we want to figure out what is happening to the world order
08:52because we are a crucial stakeholder in building the world order
08:58as a leader of the global south.
09:00And the truth is that in this particular situation,
09:03passivity, we should watch passively while the negotiation goes on.
09:08But next, if it succeeds, we should try and build on that peace
09:12to replace the kind of vacuum that is emerging in the global order
09:17because the old structures of global security have proved to be either too feeble
09:22or too porous to prevent catastrophe in Iran and in the Gulf.
09:26We can't just sit around, you know, watching the fires in our backyard
09:30or in the neighborhood.
09:31We're not just an affected country.
09:33We are a major stakeholder in the survival of the global commons.
09:37This is something which calls for a credible, principled voice
09:41that India can articulate to help build the architecture
09:44of a new emerging order.
09:46This is if the peace succeeds, we should be an active voice
09:49in what happens thereafter.
09:51If the peace attempt fails, then we should say,
09:54look, this affects all of us.
09:55This affects us.
09:56It affects our friends in the global south.
09:58We want to seize any other alternative feasible.
10:01And we would like to now, in the interests of those countries
10:04that want peace, we would like to talk to you all
10:06to see what can be done.
10:07So that, I think, is the right time.
10:09Not now.
10:10Don't leap into something where you've got nothing to do with.
10:13Sit back.
10:14Watch how the Pakistanis are doing it.
10:16If they succeed, they may only be providing a venue.
10:20The talking may really be done by the Americans and the Iranis.
10:23We don't know.
10:24We'll find out from tomorrow onwards.
10:25But if they pull it off, we should certainly applaud.
10:28We should celebrate.
10:29Because we want peace.
10:30If they don't pull it off, we have to be active in what follows next.
10:35Dr. Tharoor, there is a section which believes that India perhaps
10:37has underutilized its own civilizational and energy ties with Iran
10:42in recent years due to external pressures.
10:45What's your view?
10:47No, there are these pressures.
10:48I mean, there's no question, for example, that sanctions on Iran
10:51meant that a country which was supplying us a lot of oil,
10:54and that too on a rupee-real basis up to 2017 has now become
11:01a zero supplier of oil to India until this very war
11:04when the Americans lifted the sanctions.
11:06Because what happens with these sanctions, the American sanctions,
11:10they're not UN sanctions, they're not authorized
11:12under international law, but they are very effective commercially.
11:16Because any company that defies American sanctions
11:20and buys Russian oil or Iranian oil, and at one time
11:24until January this year, Venezuelan oil, any Indian company
11:27that buys that is then sanctioned for all trade
11:31with the American and European markets.
11:33And that's something that no Indian company can afford.
11:36So de facto, it's a commercial weapon, not a legal weapon.
11:40Okay, so when we are looking at this kind of positioning,
11:43in statecraft, what institutional legitimacy
11:49do these institutions have right now?
11:53Dr. Tharoor, you yourself have served at the United Nations.
11:56Do these institutions really mean anything in these times?
12:00Well, the UN has an enormous value in other areas,
12:03but in peace and security, it has certainly not done well
12:07in recent years.
12:08It failed to prevent the war in Ukraine,
12:10and once the war broke out, of course,
12:12the composition of the Security Council
12:14with one permanent member actually directly involved
12:17in the war meant the UN could do nothing.
12:19But the Secretary General, I think, missed out
12:21on an opportunity to intervene before the war started,
12:23when the Americans and the British were warning
12:26that a war was about to happen,
12:27that the Russians are amassing troops.
12:29He should have been out there talking to Moscow,
12:31talking to Kiev, and that, I think,
12:34was a missed opportunity.
12:35Then when this war broke out, of course,
12:37no one got a chance to intervene,
12:38but the UN, again, is facing a situation
12:41where one of the belligerents
12:42is a permanent member of the Security Council.
12:45And so, again, the UN has been, quite frankly,
12:49completely absent from the fray
12:51of trying to bring about peace in Iran.
12:53Even the Islamabad dialogue,
12:56to the best of my knowledge,
12:57does not have any UN godfatherhood.
13:00In the old days, at least the UN
13:01might have been the fig leaf.
13:03Now it seems Pakistan is the fig leaf
13:06that the two countries have resorted to.
13:08So in these circumstances, I agree with you.
13:11I share your worry that, at least in the realm
13:13of international peace and security,
13:16that, unfortunately, we are not really looking
13:18at a very credible UN role.
13:20But the UN has its usefulness as a forum
13:22to bring all countries in the world together,
13:24and it's very useful on social, economic,
13:27humanitarian, and development issues.
13:29So no one wants to wish the UN away.
13:31But the Security Council,
13:33as the guarantor of international peace,
13:36has faltered in the two big wars
13:38that the world has confronted
13:39in the last three, four years.
13:41You have made a distinction, Dr. Theroux,
13:43during the course of this interview
13:44of what Pakistan does as a state
13:47which harbors terrorism to its role as a mediator.
13:51But if peace comes through Pakistan's mediation,
13:55does that give Islamabad renewed global legitimacy?
14:00And does that come then at India's cost, sir?
14:04It may well do.
14:05It may well do give them more credibility,
14:08but maybe we can even seize that to our advantage.
14:11Maybe we can try and say through
14:13their newfound friends in Washington
14:15that if they are now sort of trying to come across
14:20as these responsible global citizens,
14:22perhaps they can start arresting
14:24some of their own terrorists.
14:25Perhaps they can close down
14:26some of their terrorist bases.
14:28Perhaps they can dismantle the infrastructure of terror
14:31in order to live up to this new image.
14:33I mean, I don't know.
14:34Let's try and make lemons,
14:36as the American expression goes,
14:37try and make lemonade out of whatever lemons we get.
14:40Let's not see everything as a zero-sum defeat.
14:43If they do well, we are immediately bad.
14:45No, let's see how we can convert that to our advantage.
14:48Just a couple of more questions here, Dr. Theroux.
14:50I know you're in the middle of elections.
14:52Elections are happening and you've just cast your vote.
14:55Your reference to Donald Trump
14:57and Aasem Muneer's personal diplomacy,
15:00bypassing formal institutions,
15:02certainly suggests a shift in global statecraft.
15:05How should India then recalibrate
15:07its diplomatic engagement in an era
15:10increasingly driven by leader-level equations
15:13rather than institutional processes?
15:16Well, as you know, our foreign secretaries in Washington,
15:18even as we speak,
15:19and I think that he's only coming back tomorrow.
15:22So I think there is a major review taking place
15:25of the Indian relationship with the US
15:26and no doubt he'll come back with some good ideas
15:29as to how to take it forward.
15:30Look, I mean, I'm very conscious
15:32that I'm in the opposition.
15:33I'm giving you personal views
15:35and the government has access
15:36to a whole lot of inside stuff
15:38that you and I don't know.
15:39So I would say that
15:41while they are in charge of these things,
15:42they will certainly have to give a lot of thought
15:45to the kind of question you ask me.
15:47I think that undoubtedly we need to review
15:51the basis of that relationship,
15:53many other relationships,
15:56who we appoint as ambassadors,
15:58how we deal with them.
16:00I mean, we are not the kind of states
16:02which has a field marshal in charge
16:04or a failed marshal in charge,
16:06as we like to say.
16:07And so we're not going to have
16:08that kind of Aasem Muneer kind of channel
16:10to Washington.
16:12But there may be other ways
16:13in which we can work.
16:14Don't forget that the Indian
16:17and U.S. governments,
16:18the previous Trump administration,
16:19had a very good relationship
16:21with our government.
16:22Maybe there could be ways
16:24to actually, shall we say, restore that.
16:28I just refuse to take my cues
16:31from how well or badly Pakistan is doing,
16:34because to my mind,
16:35they are another country.
16:37We are another country.
16:38We have our own logic
16:39and our own circumstances
16:40and our own priorities.
16:42That brings me to my last question.
16:44If the mediation fails,
16:46you have proposed in this piece
16:48that India should be ready to step in.
16:51What concrete diplomatic tools
16:54or channels does India currently possess
16:56to credibly position itself
16:58as an alternative mediator
17:00between the U.S. and Iran?
17:02No, I'm not suggesting we should do that.
17:04I'm suggesting we should analyze
17:05what led to the failure
17:08if those are factors that are unique,
17:11for example, to the Pakistani involvement.
17:13Perhaps we might be able to try
17:15or propose trying a different approach.
17:17I'm not even suggesting
17:19we should immediately come to that conclusion.
17:22It would all depend on what happens,
17:24whether it fails,
17:26and our analysis of why it failed.
17:28And that's why I hope
17:29that the Indian diplomatic establishment
17:32is studying the process in Islamabad
17:36very carefully,
17:37that we have our lines of communication
17:39open to all the sources we need,
17:41namely the U.S., the Gulf countries,
17:44and Iran,
17:45and that if things work out,
17:47we understand what succeeded
17:48and why it succeeded,
17:49and that if it fails,
17:51we understand what went wrong.
17:52And once we've understood what went wrong,
17:55we can figure out
17:55whether there is room
17:57for a let's-try-something-else approach.
17:59If there isn't room,
18:01we should not be rushing in,
18:03as I said,
18:04where angels fear to tread,
18:06fools rush in.
18:07We shouldn't do anything foolish.
18:09But I do believe that as a stakeholder
18:11in the survival of the global commons,
18:14we have a very big responsibility
18:16for ensuring that the world order
18:19doesn't crumble around us,
18:20that there isn't a vacuum
18:21in our backyard
18:23or in the Gulf or in the region.
18:25And those are all things
18:26that now our own credibility
18:29as a voice of the global south
18:31will be in question
18:32if we just remain
18:33a passive observer
18:34of everything collapsing around us.
18:36All right.
18:37Dr. Shashi Tharoor,
18:38always a pleasure listening to you, sir.
18:39Thank you for joining us.
18:41Thank you, Maria.
18:42All the best.
Comments