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In an exclusive interview with India Today, Ian Bremmer, Founder and President of Eurasia Group, discusses the ongoing geopolitical crisis and peace talks between the United States and Iran in Islamabad.
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00:05and with all eyes on the talks that are set to begin in Islamabad tomorrow I'm
00:10joined by a very special guest joined by Ian Bremer one of the world's leading
00:15political risk consultants founder and chairperson of the Eurasia group
00:19appreciate your joining us here mr. Bremer on India today want to understand
00:24from you that big question that we are posing do you really now expect a
00:30lasting peace out of these negotiations or are we still at a very fragile state
00:36when it comes to this conflict in West Asia I don't know about a lasting peace
00:42but I think it's a very big deal that the American president has who you know
00:48unilaterally started this war has decided that he wants to climb down I mean he's
00:55the one that decided on the war goals the timing the extent and and the Iranians
01:02were prepared to offer these same terms weeks ago and Trump said no and and now
01:08he's changed his mind so he has the ability irrespective of what other
01:15countries do in the region if he wants to stop fighting and declare victory he
01:19can do that so that I what I guess I'm saying to you is I think that that change
01:24in Trump is very significant
01:30but but what caused this change as you say these terms that the Iranians have put
01:35down were also on the table possibly a couple of weeks ago then the Americans
01:40seem to reject them they seem to have a maximalist position now two weeks later
01:45we have negotiations taking place in Islamabad to be led by none other than
01:50the US vice president so clearly a lot of political equity in these negotiations
01:56what has changed Mr. Bremer well the costs have added up this morning we saw an
02:02inflation number of 3.3 in the United States and that's only going up from
02:07here gas prices of four dollars a gallon diesel over five this is you know Trump
02:15has never had direct responsibility for a major economic downturn before you
02:20couldn't blame him for COVID until now and and he is polling very badly he's
02:26going to lose midterms on the back of this decision and his performance on
02:32economic affordability so so he knows this is not going well and also militarily
02:39the Iranians were showing much more capacity to continue to engage in
02:45ballistic missile strikes even after their stockpiles have been hit CENTCOM had
02:51initially assessed that it would take them months to dig out those missiles in some
02:55cases they've done it in less than 24 hours so I think a combination of the
03:01economic consequences the military capacity of the Iranians and the fact that
03:07Trump did not have a workable military plan in the near term to reopen the
03:13strait changed his orientation to how he wanted to play success or failure in his war
03:27let's break down exactly what you've just said Mr. Bremer the economic
03:31consequences you're telling me that you believe that Donald Trump has finally
03:35recognized that a prolonged war is going to hit America's economy it's possibly of
03:41course going to hit the global economy it's already done so rising fuel prices
03:47elections in November that was the primary driver surely he would have been aware of
03:52this a couple of weeks ago was he expecting a quick war and that never
03:58happened he thought the Iranians were going to capitulate at the beginning this
04:03is what the Israeli Prime Minister told him but it also comported with his own
04:08personal experience with Iran when he ordered the assassination of Qasem Soleimani
04:13head of the Quds Force at the end of his first term when he engaged with the
04:16Israelis in the 12-day war last June in both cases the Iranians talked a big game
04:23but they actually did very little to respond militarily against the United
04:27States so Trump felt like he had their number he also of course in Venezuela
04:33experienced enormous success at the beginning of the year with his own
04:38military so he believed that after the Supreme Leader was assassinated with a
04:44tremendous display of American military force that the new Iranian leadership
04:50rather similar to the old Iranian leadership would be willing to cut a deal
04:54the way that Delcy Rodriguez has in Venezuela that was Trump's perspective and
04:59of course he was also being told by his own advisors how brilliant he is how
05:05successful his military plans even those that were skeptical were not willing to
05:11give him an unvarnished criticism internally which is always a dangerous
05:17position for a leader of any organization to be in you want their best experts to
05:23tell them what they really think Trump has created an environment where they
05:27don't do that where instead they flatter him now one thing we know is no matter how
05:33much flattery he receives Trump reads the news he knows what gas costs he sees the
05:40markets he watches it every day and so that can't be obscured by his own
05:46advisors in the way that military success in scenario planning can be
05:55let's then turn to that military success that you spoke about it appeared in the
05:59initial stages that the Americans and the Israelis were successful in to
06:04substantial extent targeting Iranian infrastructure assassinating several
06:10leaders from the regime what changed did the change in your view that has led to
06:15the situation that we now have these peace talks once the Iranians recognized how
06:20they could weaponize the Strait of Hormuz was that the turning point and was
06:24that in a way where Donald Trump and the Israelis perhaps misread the situation
06:29Israel's ability Iran's ability to use the Strait of Hormuz as this weapon that's that's not a
06:37surprise every administration for decades that has thought about Iran and the Middle East understands
06:44geography the geography hasn't changed the Strait is very narrow Iran is on one side of it
06:51their capacity to disrupt it has always existed now there is much greater drone capability we've seen
07:01this with Ukraine and Russia and the war in the last four years certainly America's ability to reduce or
07:10destroy Iran's ability to use drones against the Strait and against countries in the Gulf and their own
07:18infrastructure I mean the strikes on the Qataris in their LNG facility which will take five years
07:26to repair and has caused some 20 billion dollars of damage that that certainly is is new and I do
07:35think
07:36that Iran's ballistic missile capabilities hypersonic missiles with long range that have the ability to evade
07:45defences for some of the most hardened facilities in the world here I'm thinking about the Prince Sultan
07:51Air Base in Riyadh I think that was a surprise to the U.S. military I think they did not
07:59believe the
08:00Iranians had that capability so that factored in but but the ability of the Iranians to disrupt the
08:07strait was not new Trump discounted it because of his overconfidence that the military strikes would lead the
08:15Iranians to give up and capitulate the way they had in previous U.S. attacks that were of course
08:23much more restrained
08:28let's come to the specific risks involved in the the scenarios from these talks even as the talks take
08:35place there's uncertainty about what Israel for example does with southern Lebanon the Iranians are insisting
08:41that Lebanon is part of the negotiations that there was a commitment that the strikes would stop in
08:49Lebanon but we've still had even this morning strikes take place albeit fewer than yesterday in which
08:55approximately 300 people were killed are we seeing therefore Israel's objectives still very different now from the
09:03Americans the Americans as you say are willing to talk willing to negotiate the Israelis are particularly keen to use
09:10this
09:10moment to in a way send a very strong message to the Hezbollah and the various Iranian militias
09:18Well they have the same enemies right I mean in the sense that the Americans you know think Hezbollah is
09:25a terrorist organization so does Israel the U.S. would like them destroyed so does Israel
09:30The Americans see the Iranian regime as a rogue state and they were fully prepared to support the assassination of
09:39the supreme leader so does Israel the Iranians say death to America death to Israel the two countries perceive it
09:45in a similar way almost no other countries in the world perceive it that way but the U.S. and
09:50the Israel are broadly aligned having said that Trump's war goals have changed the U.S. is thousands of miles
09:59away
09:59And is kind of sick of this war at this point the Israelis still have many things they wish to
10:04accomplish and it seems pretty clear to me when the Pakistani prime minister tells the Iranians that the ceasefire includes
10:12Hezbollah and Lebanon that they heard that from the Americans and the Israelis refused to go along
10:19So I think that that does show a willingness of the Israelis to act unilaterally even as they follow the
10:27Americans in accepting a ceasefire on Iranian territory
10:31Trump has been a little angry about that
10:35And as a consequence you've heard the vice president Vance say that they've asked the Israelis to tone it down
10:44a bit
10:45A bit is not exactly stop
10:48But we've seen an announcement from the Israeli prime minister that they are going to engage directly in negotiations with
10:56the Lebanese government in Washington early next week
11:00That could lead to a ceasefire agreed with Beirut
11:04Perhaps with a stronger timeline on disarmament of Hezbollah which they had agreed to heretofore but they had not been
11:15able to execute on it
11:17So I could see that ceasefire actually coming into place
11:23And that would of course create more confidence that you could maintain a broader ceasefire with the Iranians going forward
11:29But as of today we don't have that
11:35You see as of today also we still don't have any kind of trust between the Iranians and the Americans
11:42On significant points whether it's nuclear enrichment
11:45Whether it is who will control the state of Hormuz
11:48Whether the Iranians will be free to charge ships that come through the state of Hormuz
11:52On a number of issues Mr. Bremer
11:55We do not seem to have that basic agreement because there is so much mistrust on both sides
12:00Given that
12:01Do you really believe that these talks are anything more than just the two sides sizing each other up at
12:08the moment?
12:09Well first of all
12:10We didn't have talks a week ago
12:13We only had indirect sharing of different positions by the foreign minister and by Steve Witkoff
12:22So this is obviously a significant step up in a willingness to engage
12:26I agree there's no trust but it's not like the Americans trust the Chinese
12:32It's not like the Americans trust the French at this point
12:37Or the French trust the Americans
12:39So I'm not sure trust is the key question to ask about here
12:43And as I said at the beginning
12:45If Trump decides he doesn't want to fight this war anymore
12:48You don't need trust to stop fighting against the Iranians
12:53You just say I won I'm done it's over
12:55And if the Americans don't have an effective military strategy to reopen the strait
13:01Then the U.S. can be angry about Iran charging tolls
13:06But they can't do anything about it and other countries around the world will find a way to engage with
13:11Iran
13:11And sooner or later more ships will go through
13:14After all the Americans have suspended sanctions against the Iranians to allow their tankers to sell oil to countries around
13:22the world
13:23Including your own country at a significant premium
13:26That was a decision by the United States
13:28So Trump obviously doesn't like Iran
13:30Wants to blow up Iran
13:32But is happy to have them make money
13:35If that means that oil prices are coming down
13:38His preferences in this regard are fairly clear
13:42So I do think that if Trump is focused on ending the war
13:48Then I don't think trust really matters
13:51There is of course another way to read what's happening
13:54And we haven't talked about all of the American ground forces
14:00And the third aircraft strike carrier group
14:04Which is steaming its way into the region
14:08Even as we speak
14:10The ceasefire hasn't stopped that
14:12And American military officials have told Trump
14:17That the U.S. is not in place
14:20And is not yet capable of engaging in ground operations
14:25For at least another few weeks
14:27So if you want to be skeptical about the ceasefire
14:31You could say that Trump doesn't care about any of this
14:37He's just trying to talk the markets up
14:41Talk oil prices down
14:43Until he has troops in the region
14:45That are ready to do the ground attacks that he wants
14:49And that's why he keeps talking about taking the oil
14:52Is he wants to control Karg Island
14:54Where the Iranians export 90% of their oil
14:58And he wants to use that as a lever
15:00Against the Iranians disrupting the strait
15:04And if they disrupt the strait
15:06Then they're not going to get any oil out themselves
15:08Now if he does that
15:10Oil's at 200
15:12So there are costs to Trump
15:14But you could argue
15:16That he doesn't have that military option
15:19Until all those troops show up
15:21So in the interim
15:22Why not
15:24Say there's going to be peace talks
15:26Even if you don't believe they're going anywhere
15:28You'll still do better for having tried
15:34You know you're saying something significant
15:36You seem to suggest therefore
15:38That that possibility of a ground invasion
15:41Is not entirely off the table
15:43To that extent
15:44Donald Trump may just be buying time
15:46Even though
15:46As you've repeatedly said
15:48This has been a war without a clear strategy
15:51What does this say
15:52About Donald Trump's leadership
15:54And choices that he makes?
15:57Trump is the decider
15:59He's not listening to his experts
16:02He believes that he's the one
16:04That makes all of the best decisions
16:07And they're not telling him
16:09100% of what they think
16:11They're making him sound like
16:13Much more of a genius
16:14Much more positive
16:15Which is again
16:15A very dangerous position
16:17To be in
16:18So I do worry
16:20That Trump frequently makes decisions
16:23On the basis of his own personal interest
16:26And not the interest of the country
16:28I think we saw this
16:29On Greenland
16:31For example
16:32Which did a lot of damage
16:33To America's relations
16:34With its NATO allies
16:36With no discernible benefit
16:38To U.S. national security
16:40Whatsoever
16:40And that was because
16:42Trump made those decisions himself
16:43There was no clear aim
16:46Or goal
16:46Other than the aggrandizement
16:48Of Trump
16:49And I worry
16:51That that can lead to mistakes
16:54On a much broader scale
16:56And we might be seeing that
16:58Play out with Iran
16:59Certainly in my view
17:00This Iran war
17:02Is the biggest foreign policy mistake
17:04That Trump has made
17:05In either of his two administrations
17:11That's a big thing you're saying
17:12In your view
17:14The Iran war
17:15Is the biggest foreign policy mistake
17:17That Donald Trump has made
17:18In both his terms
17:20Put together
17:20There's one other interesting angle
17:22Mr. Bremer
17:23Which is Pakistan
17:24And that interests us a lot
17:25In India
17:26The fact that Pakistan
17:27Is the venue
17:27For these talks
17:29The Pakistan foreign minister
17:30Today
17:30Seemed to lash out
17:32At Israel
17:33Called it evil
17:33And had to pull down
17:35The tweet
17:35Should Pakistan
17:37Really be seen
17:38As a serious player
17:39Or is it simply
17:41A facilitator
17:41For these talks
17:42On behalf of
17:43The United States
17:44Do you see any
17:45Bigger role
17:46For Pakistan
17:47At all
17:48Sure
17:49I mean
17:50I think that
17:51Pakistan
17:51Now has
17:53A much more
17:53Public
17:54Defense
17:55Alliance
17:56With Saudi Arabia
17:57I see the emergence
17:59Of a regional quad
18:01That also includes
18:02Turkey
18:03And Egypt
18:04In addition to
18:05The Saudis
18:06And the Pakistanis
18:07Very different
18:08From the UAE
18:10Israel
18:11US
18:12India
18:13Relationship
18:15That we see
18:16Emerging
18:18In and
18:19Extending
18:20From the Gulf
18:21So I think
18:22Pakistan
18:22Is more credible
18:23In acting
18:24As a peace
18:26Convener
18:27Especially
18:28Because
18:28They have
18:30Made
18:30Some personal
18:31Inroads
18:32With the
18:32Trump family
18:33In part
18:35By throwing
18:35Money at it
18:36And also
18:37Of course
18:38They maintain
18:38A more functional
18:39Relationship
18:40With China
18:40Than India
18:42Does
18:42So in that
18:43In that regard
18:43I think Pakistan
18:44Pakistan has
18:45Really helped
18:45Improve
18:46Their diplomatic
18:47Position
18:47In the region
18:48And globally
18:50Having said
18:51That
18:51Pakistan has
18:53Nowhere near
18:53The military
18:54Capability
18:55The technological
18:55Capability
18:56The economic
18:57Influence
18:58That India
18:59Does globally
19:00And so
19:00I would not
19:01Read
19:02From what's
19:03Happening
19:03Right now
19:04Around the
19:05Iran talks
19:06I would not
19:07Suddenly read
19:07From that
19:08A projection
19:09Of Pakistan's
19:10Geopolitical
19:11Power
19:12In a new
19:12Global order
19:13That is beyond
19:14What its real
19:15Capabilities are
19:19So let me ask
19:20You in conclusion
19:21Mr. Bremer
19:22And this is
19:22Something that
19:22You do
19:23At the
19:24Eurasia Group
19:25Just predict
19:25In a sense
19:26What happens
19:27Next
19:27What's your
19:28Sense
19:30Will we be
19:31Two weeks
19:32Down the line
19:32By the end
19:33Of the month
19:33In a better
19:34Place than
19:34We are today
19:35Or do you
19:36Fear as you
19:37Mentioned
19:38That this is
19:38Only buying
19:39Time
19:39Possibly
19:41Sizing each
19:42Other up
19:42And then
19:43Making
19:43Alternative
19:44Strategies
19:45A plan
19:45B
19:46What do
19:46You see
19:47Happening
19:47By the
19:48End of
19:48The month
19:48Will we
19:49Have a
19:50Relatively
19:51More stable
19:53Situation in
19:54West Asia
19:54Or are we
19:55In for
19:55Prolonged
19:56Instability
19:58We're in
19:58For prolonged
19:59Disruption
20:00Economically
20:01I don't
20:02Think the
20:03Strait is
20:03Going to
20:03Be fully
20:04Reopened
20:05In the
20:05Foreseeable
20:06Future
20:07I worry
20:07About that
20:08And the
20:09Knock on
20:10Economic
20:10Consequences
20:11Are massive
20:12But I do
20:12Think that
20:13In part
20:14As a
20:14Consequence
20:15Of that
20:15President
20:16Trump
20:17Really
20:17Doesn't
20:17Want to
20:18Restart
20:18This
20:19War
20:19He
20:19Really
20:19Doesn't
20:20Want it
20:20To
20:20Escalate
20:21That
20:21When he
20:21Was
20:21Threatened
20:22Threatening
20:23The end
20:23Of Iranian
20:24Civilization
20:25You know
20:25That sort
20:26Of
20:27Genocidal
20:27Tweet
20:28That he
20:28Put out
20:29A couple
20:29Mornings
20:30Ago
20:30That was
20:31Never
20:31Credible
20:31That
20:32That kind
20:33Of
20:33Escalation
20:34Against
20:34Iranian
20:35Infrastructure
20:36That would
20:36Lead
20:37The
20:37Iranians
20:38To
20:39Destroy
20:39Gulf
20:40Infrastructure
20:41That
20:42Was never
20:42On the
20:43Table
20:43And I
20:44Think
20:44Trump
20:44Does
20:45Want to
20:46Unilaterally
20:46Deescalate
20:47Irrespective
20:48Of where
20:49The Israelis
20:50The Emiratis
20:51The Iranians
20:52Hezbollah
20:53The Houthis
20:54Go
20:55Over the
20:56Coming
20:56Weeks
20:57And that
20:57Should
20:58Create
20:58Some
20:59Greater
21:00Predictability
21:01And perhaps
21:02Reduce
21:03Tensions
21:04In this
21:05Region
21:05Going
21:06Forward
21:09But
21:10You know
21:11We're
21:11Looking at
21:12It from
21:12A Trump
21:12Perspective
21:13What about
21:14The Iranians
21:14Do you
21:14See that
21:15The Iranians
21:15Are serious
21:16About these
21:17Talks
21:17Or not
21:18Again
21:19The reason
21:20I'm
21:21Focusing
21:21On Trump
21:22Here is
21:22Because
21:23Trump
21:23Started
21:23The war
21:24And the
21:25Iranians
21:26Don't
21:26Have the
21:27Ability
21:27To hit
21:27The United
21:28States
21:28Directly
21:29So to
21:30The extent
21:31That Trump
21:31Wants to
21:32End the
21:32War
21:33That has
21:34A major
21:35Outcome
21:36Irrespective
21:37Of what
21:37The Iranians
21:38Do
21:39I think
21:40That's
21:40Really
21:40Important
21:40I mean
21:41We're not
21:42Going to
21:42See
21:42Regime
21:43Change
21:43That was
21:44An initial
21:45Effort
21:46Of Trump
21:46He's
21:46Given up
21:47On that
21:47That
21:47Matters
21:48But I
21:49Mean
21:50Are the
21:50Iranians
21:51Going to
21:52Actually
21:52Give up
21:53On
21:53Nuclear
21:54Enrichment
21:54I don't
21:55Think
21:55So
21:55I think
21:56They're
21:56Interested
21:57In
21:57Extending
21:58Talks
21:58That
21:59They'll
21:59Engage
22:00In
22:00For
22:00Months
22:00And
22:00Months
22:01If
22:01The
22:01Americans
22:01Are
22:02Willing
22:02To
22:02That
22:03Will
22:03Ultimately
22:03Be
22:04Disappointing
22:05But if
22:05The
22:05Americans
22:06Still
22:06Don't
22:07Want
22:07The
22:07War
22:07Because
22:08It's
22:08Too
22:08Costly
22:09Then
22:09Then
22:09Iranians
22:10Have
22:10Created
22:11A
22:11Level
22:11Of
22:11Deterrence
22:12Not
22:12Through
22:12Having
22:12Nukes
22:13Which
22:13They
22:13Don't
22:13Have
22:14But
22:14Rather
22:14Through
22:15Having
22:15The
22:15Ability
22:16And
22:16Willingness
22:16To
22:17Engage
22:17In
22:17Disruption
22:18In
22:18The
22:18Straight
22:18Which
22:19Creates
22:19A
22:19Level
22:20Of
22:20Security
22:20For
22:20Them
22:21That
22:21Is
22:21What
22:22They've
22:22Wanted
22:22All
22:22The
22:22Way
22:23Through
22:23So
22:23Again
22:24I
22:25Don't
22:25Really
22:25Think
22:26This
22:26Is
22:26About
22:26How
22:27The
22:27Iranians
22:28Are
22:28Going
22:28To
22:28Play
22:28The
22:29Talks
22:29I
22:29Expect
22:30That
22:30They
22:30Will
22:30Engage
22:31In
22:31Further
22:32Talks
22:32Going
22:32Forward
22:33But
22:33They
22:33Won't
22:33Give
22:33Up
22:34Very
22:34Much
22:34The
22:35Question
22:35Is
22:36Whether
22:36Or
22:36Not
22:36That
22:37Matters
22:37To
22:37Trump
22:38And
22:38Increasingly
22:39I
22:39Think
22:40It
22:40Probably
22:40Doesn't
22:44So
22:45In
22:45Conclusion
22:46At
22:46The
22:46End
22:46Of
22:47These
22:47Six
22:47Weeks
22:47We're
22:48Entering
22:48Week
22:48Six
22:48Who's
22:49Really
22:50Won
22:50And
22:50Who's
22:50Really
22:51Lost
22:52Oh
22:53There
22:54Are
22:54No
22:54Winners
22:54Here
22:55I
22:55Mean
22:55The
22:56Russians
22:56Have
22:57Won
22:57The
22:58Chinese
22:58Are
22:58Winning
22:59Long
22:59Term
22:59But
23:00I
23:00Mean
23:00You
23:01Can't
23:01Say
23:01That
23:01The
23:01Iranians
23:02Have
23:02Won
23:03I'd
23:03Hate
23:03To
23:03Be
23:03The
23:04Iranian
23:04Regime
23:05In
23:06Six
23:06Months
23:07In
23:07A
23:07Year's
23:07Time
23:08Their
23:09More
23:09Competent
23:10Leaders
23:10Have
23:10Been
23:10Killed
23:11They've
23:12Got
23:12Elite
23:13Fracture
23:13Potential
23:14Internally
23:15Their
23:15Industry
23:16Has
23:16Been
23:16Destroyed
23:17And
23:17So
23:17Much
23:17Of
23:18Their
23:18Infrastructure
23:18The
23:19Petrochemical
23:19Plants
23:20For
23:20Example
23:20Railways
23:21And
23:22They
23:22Don't
23:22It's
23:23To
23:23Be
23:23Very
23:23Hard
23:23For
23:23Them
23:23To
23:24Develop
23:24The
23:24Capacity
23:25To
23:25Rebuild
23:25That
23:25Quickly
23:26At
23:27The
23:27Same
23:27Time
23:28The
23:28Americans
23:28Have
23:29Shown
23:30That
23:30They
23:30Have
23:30An
23:31Incredible
23:31Military
23:31But
23:32Political
23:33Dysfunction
23:33In
23:34A
23:34Glass
23:34Jaw
23:34They
23:34Can't
23:35Take
23:35Much
23:35Pain
23:35And
23:36The
23:37Chinese
23:37Last
23:37Year
23:37With
23:38Critical
23:38Minerals
23:38And
23:39Now
23:39The
23:39Iranians
23:40With
23:40The
23:40Straight
23:40Have
23:41Shown
23:41That
23:41They
23:41Are
23:41Able
23:42And
23:42Willing
23:42To
23:43Back
23:43The
23:43Americans
23:44Down
23:44Despite
23:45All
23:46Of
23:46Trump's
23:46Bluster
23:46So
23:47I
23:47Don't
23:47See
23:48Any
23:48Winners
23:48Here
23:49The
23:49Israelis
23:50Of
23:50Course
23:50Are
23:51Doing
23:51What
23:51They
23:51Want
23:51Militarily
23:52But
23:53Now
23:53Most
23:54Young
23:54People
23:54In
23:54The
23:54United
23:55States
23:55Even
23:55Most
23:56Republicans
23:56Under
23:5750
23:57Say
23:58They
23:58Don't
23:58Support
23:58Israel
23:59Anymore
23:59Israel
23:59Looks
24:00Increasingly
24:00Isolated
24:01Long
24:01Term
24:02The
24:03Gulf
24:03States
24:03They
24:04You
24:04Know
24:04They
24:04They
24:04Had
24:05A
24:05Model
24:05That
24:05Has
24:06Really
24:06Been
24:07Successful
24:08On
24:08The
24:08Back
24:08Of
24:08Convincing
24:09Ex
24:09Patriots
24:10Around
24:10The
24:10World
24:11That
24:12This
24:13Is
24:13The
24:13Switzerland
24:13Of
24:14The
24:14Middle
24:19It's
24:19Ugly
24:19Head
24:19Is
24:20Showing
24:20That
24:20It's
24:20Not
24:21A
24:21Switzerland
24:22It's
24:22Much
24:22More
24:22Unstable
24:23And
24:23Much
24:23More
24:24Dangerous
24:24So
24:24There
24:24Are
24:24No
24:25Winners
24:25That
24:26Come
24:26From
24:26A
24:26War
24:26Like
24:27This
24:30There
24:31Are
24:31No
24:31Winners
24:32That
24:32Come
24:32From
24:32A
24:32War
24:33Like
24:33This
24:33Those
24:33Words
24:34I
24:34Think
24:34Should
24:34Ring
24:35Home
24:35To
24:35All
24:36The
24:36Various
24:36Stakeholders
24:37Ian
24:38Bremer
24:38Pleasure
24:39Talking
24:39To
24:40You
24:40Thank
24:40You
24:40So
24:40Much
24:41For
24:41Shedding
24:42So
24:42Much
24:42Clarity
24:49Bye
24:50Pleasure
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