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00:00When it comes to Cavs versus JB, the revenge upon revenge side of this,
00:07I think if you're JB, you want more revenge on the Cavs
00:12than maybe the Cavs players want on JB.
00:16But I also think if you're the Cavs, you just...
00:18Maybe not for Donovan.
00:20I just felt like they didn't get along.
00:23I didn't know it was like...
00:24That feels like sports hate to me.
00:25I mean, Donovan's the one that basically authored up the whole firing
00:28to begin with anyway.
00:29So, like, Donovan wants to be proven right in this.
00:32Oh, that's interesting.
00:33I haven't thought about it that way.
00:34I feel like Donovan probably hasn't given the head coaching spot
00:37another thought since he got JB fired, right?
00:41I think there's...
00:42If he's going to bear the weight of responsibility of everything that's attached to this,
00:46I think him being the one that orchestrates the move to get JB out,
00:49he has to then have Atkinson be successful.
00:51Now, maybe at this point, things have started to sour between the two of them.
00:54I don't know.
00:55But, like, yeah, I would think this is going to be personal for Donovan.
00:59Do you see a...
01:02We asked Danny Cunningham at 420, and I said,
01:05who has the coaching advantage?
01:06And he says he thinks the Cavs by a small amount there.
01:10Yeah.
01:11Who has the better advantage, though, in this series?
01:13JB from knowing the Cavs or the Cavs from knowing JB?
01:16Yeah, I find it fascinating because JB's going to know all of Donovan's weaknesses.
01:20He's going to know what to do with Jared Allen, with Evan Mobley.
01:22And so, I'd feel like he'd have the upper hand in this.
01:25Whereas, the Cavs' response to that is what?
01:27Let's hope JB just makes Kate Cunningham run like crazy the way he did Donovan?
01:32He's going to do that anyway.
01:33So, it's funny.
01:34I think the way you beat the Cavs, that book is out there.
01:39Toronto tried to read from that book.
01:41Every other team that you've lost to in the playoffs,
01:43or even outside of Miami, who just seemed like they wanted to be anywhere else
01:48than the playoffs last year, pretty much everybody knows what the playbook is.
01:52Get physical, go for 50-50 balls, beat the crap out of the Cavs,
01:57and see if they can withstand it.
01:58Yeah.
01:59So, I don't know that there's any inside juice here.
02:01I do think this Cavs' big picture, it's not just the players that know JB.
02:07There's any inside juice?
02:08I mean, like, JB's going to know the favorite way that Evan Mobley likes to eat a sandwich.
02:14Nonetheless, the favorite way he likes to make a turn on a basketball court.
02:16I don't think he's paid that much attention to Evan Mobley's sandwich-eating abilities.
02:19No.
02:20You'd be surprised.
02:21That's true.
02:21That was the one way in which he could coach.
02:24I'm kidding.
02:25That's not fair.
02:25JB's a good coach.
02:26He's a good regular season coach, and I do think, inevitably—
02:30Which is even more of an insult than he's a good coach.
02:34No, I think Jamal Mosley's a great regular season coach as well.
02:37No, I know, but if you're JB and you're listening,
02:38you don't take the great regular season coach as anything more than that's an insult to him.
02:43Well, in fairness—
02:43I'm not blaming you.
02:44I was the guy that wanted him fired probably longer than anyone else.
02:49You went as hard as anybody in your disdain for JB.
02:52Has he proved you right or wrong in this stretch?
02:55I don't even know at this point.
02:56No, because I always thought he was a good regular—
02:57I think he's the guy you build with, and then eventually you go,
03:01Oh, what's that?
03:02He's not great with rotations in the postseason?
03:04He's not great with, like, in spur of the moment kind of things?
03:08Maybe we'll get a different guy.
03:09And so with them giving him the contract extension today, a lot of that is them basically trying to tell
03:13everybody,
03:14this was what they expected this year.
03:16Like, at best, this is what they wanted or thought he could do, especially after the puncturing along for Cunningham.
03:21Like, they had to have thought this was the ceiling.
03:23And so, again, I think one of the key advantages we have in this is that the Pistons don't feel
03:28like they have to accomplish anything more this year.
03:30Meanwhile, the Cavs have to.
03:32I think in the end you want to win.
03:34Like, I think that takes over.
03:36And I do think you saw more fight when they were down 3-1 than I thought the Pistons had.
03:41It is like a franchise free roll in many respects.
03:44I don't think—
03:44For Detroit it is.
03:45I don't think teams—even organizations.
03:47I think they're very content with—I think they're very happy to be where they are.
03:51I would be surprised if they're like, yeah, whatever happens in this series.
03:55The extension tells me that's how they're thinking.
03:56I don't—that's not what—I think they just wanted to give him an extension.
04:00Now, I thought it was more, hey, I'm going to do this before the Cavs series to rub some noses
04:06in it.
04:06Like, thanks for the great coach, Cleveland.
04:08That's more what it felt like.
04:09Oh, that's a weird set of gamemanship to attach yourself to try to get some sort of edge here.
04:13It's the NBA.
04:14There's a lot of stupid stuff that happens.
04:15But I think, like, the same thing that you can say about he knows, you know, how Evan Moby likes
04:21to eat a sandwich.
04:22I think the entirety of the Cavs organization knows JB.
04:25Because of how the head coach is positioned in the NBA, you have conversations with literally every department where you
04:35kind of profess how you see things, how you like things, how you don't like things.
04:40And so I don't think the advantage is just the players.
04:43I think the front office knowing JB this way is an advantage that maybe you don't get going back the
04:50other way.
04:50So, but why I tilt it in JB's favor is because I think knowing more about the players is going
04:54to impact it more than JB's little habits here and there.
04:57Ooh, I don't know about that.
05:00Okay.
05:01I guess you don't know about that.
05:02Hey.
05:03We agree to disagree.
05:05Are you going to let this one play out?
05:07If that's how you want to keep playing it, second time today, you want to let it play out.
05:12Well, no, I was being facetious.
05:13Oh, because we could do it.
05:15That was the first one, how we're going to play it out.
05:17Oh, shoot.
05:18Oh, whether or not we can say that the Raptors series helped them or didn't help them.
05:24And you wanted to wait until after the series was done in order to be able to tell that.
05:27And can I tell you, that actually isn't just about the Toronto series.
05:31That's a compound effect of all the playoffs.
05:34The amount of times I've seen the Cavs come out of a series and been like, we really learned something
05:39here, only to walk right into a buzzsaw.
05:42That's informing my, we're going to let this one play out.
05:44Yeah.
05:44Yeah.
05:45That's what it was.
05:46Exactly right.
05:46Yeah.
05:47So we'll have to let it play out, I guess, in your words.
05:50In that one way.
05:50Yeah, in that one way.
05:51Now, that being said, I think there's advantages and disadvantages for both sides.
05:58But I think we might be sleeping on how much the Cavs know Bickerstaff.
06:02I just don't know how many levers JB can even pull in this series.
06:05You know what I mean?
06:06Like, I look at it, and he's got a bunch of gym class heroes on the Pistons.
06:11They're a bunch of try-hards.
06:12They're going to muddy it up.
06:13They're going to try to play dirty.
06:14I think everyone's seeing that coming.
06:15We're expecting, like, I don't know, seven beef stew fights in the first, like, 12 minutes.
06:19Because I'm convinced he wanted to be an MMA fighter.
06:21He didn't want to actually do basketball.
06:23You can offer him the same salary.
06:24He'd take MMA fighter.
06:25I think he's basketball tough and not MMA tough.
06:27And so, like, I mean, it's like, I just don't know how much range he can even offer up with
06:32this Pistons team.
06:33I actually think that's a way in which it might go in his favor.
06:37His lack of buttons to push means he's not going to be trying to push them.
06:41And he's just going to keep going, all right, beat the crap out of the Cavs.
06:44And if you keep pushing that button, people will be like, he never moved off his style of play.
06:51It's like, well, yeah, because he couldn't.
06:52Why I think the Pistons work so well for him is it's the same thing he did with Donovan.
06:55It's the same exact thing.
06:56Same thing he was trying to do with Donovan, where at the moment he gets in trouble, he just unleashes
07:00them.
07:00He hits the turbo boost on his best player, and then that's his answer to everything.
07:04So, while I heard multiple NBA, like, national NBA guys say, if the Cavs lose Game 7, Atkinson was toast.
07:13And a fair amount of them, including Bill Simmons, say, hey, you could have a really competitive second-round series.
07:19And Atkinson could still be toast.
07:22Jeff Phelps today, a little bit of a hardened defender, a little bit of a Kenny Atkinson defender,
07:27giving his take on Atkinson's job security going into this series.
07:31I would think you'd be hard-pressed to blow it up, whether it be the coaching or the front office
07:36or even the roster.
07:37Do you want to answer any text messages if you're Dan Gilbert from your buddies in Detroit?
07:42Hey, thanks for the coach.
07:44All it takes is a couple of those.
07:46I know it sounds petty, but you're like, that sounds petty.
07:49It needs to be a competitive series.
07:51If it goes 7, are you really going to fire him?
07:52I honestly think the only way you could actually think of firing Kenny Atkinson...
07:58At this point, right?
07:59...is if you got swept by Detroit.
08:01And blown out or just swept?
08:02Just swept.
08:03I agree with you.
08:04All right, so there's a lot to unpack here.
08:06The one thing that I've got to give Baskin 100% credit is a Jeff clip,
08:11but the amount of times that I have heard, man, owner X wasn't going to fire this coach.
08:19And then his buddy started ragging on him.
08:22For sure.
08:22And he just doubled back and said, no, this is unacceptable.
08:28It's why whenever we talk about organizations, and we both kind of are like,
08:32why are we empowering these organizations if all these organizations are that smart,
08:35as if it's the smartest people in the world?
08:37Smart people make dumb decisions, especially in a pressurized vacuum.
08:40Like, that's what I hearken back to.
08:42We just got to get in some owner's group chats.
08:43That's true.
08:44There's still time.
08:47I mean, you're just pulling levers from the group chat.
08:48I actually disagree with Phelps.
08:52Listen, I thought Jarrett or Evan was shaping up to be the fall guy
08:57if the Cavs don't get as far as whoever anybody thinks they should go.
09:02I think both Evan and Jarrett kind of acquitted themselves pretty well
09:06in the Toronto series, especially Jarrett with that last one.
09:10But, like, I think both of them did enough good basketball
09:13that I don't feel as strongly about that.
09:16But I do think, Kenny, it's just the way the NBA works.
09:19The first thing you do is fire the head coach.
09:21I don't think it's right.
09:22I think Kenny's a better head coach than we've even seen this year
09:25because, to me, I can't judge you if you're uncomfortable
09:28or you don't know your team yet.
09:31He didn't voice the James Harden disruption,
09:34and not just that, Keon Ellis and Dennis Schroeder.
09:36He didn't voice that upon himself.
09:37He's just trying to make the best out of it.
09:39I mean, somebody's got to be responsible
09:40if they don't make it out of the second round once again,
09:42and I think it will fall on Atkinson.
09:44I think he's got to be the guy.
09:45And so, like, especially when we talk about Allen and Mobley
09:49and what they've done this last series.
09:50Now, who knows?
09:50Maybe we fast forward, and the reason why,
09:52if you lost in four or five games,
09:53is because those players were absolute no-shows,
09:55and maybe it changes the math just a little bit.
09:57But, yeah, I think right now it'd have to be Atkinson.
10:00Because you're right, it is how the NBA works.
10:01You win an NBA title, and two years later you're out of a job.
10:04Well, and here's the thing.
10:05It's also what's going to pressurize this to a different degree is
10:08you'd be losing to the old head coach.
10:10Now, I would look at that and go,
10:11all right, well, then it wasn't J.B. Bickerstaff,
10:14so maybe it's the players after four years
10:16that we can start, you know, kind of drilling down on that.
10:19But this is how the NBA works,
10:21and at any point you can go find yourself
10:24a potential Coach of the Year candidate
10:25just off the scrap heap,
10:27because they're damn near always available.
10:28Just don't do it.
10:29Don't hire like a John Beeline type.
10:31That won't work.
10:32Well, can't put it past him.
10:34Mike in Stowe, welcome to the show.
10:37Hey, guys, how are you doing today?
10:38Doing all right.
10:39What you got for us?
10:40Really good show, man.
10:41You guys are getting all over the place on this.
10:42You know, when I got in earlier,
10:44I was in a segment when you guys were going out
10:46about moving the goalpost,
10:48and we've covered like two other good things since then,
10:50so I'll try to cover as much as I can.
10:52Go back to that one.
10:53Nick, I'm with you.
10:55You know, the landscape has changed.
10:58You know, we should, the expectations should change,
11:01and, you know, the fact that we would, we have...
11:04Mike alone doesn't answer this, by the way.
11:06I think he does.
11:07Mike alone is not the arbiter of whether or not
11:09it's an acceptable goalpost.
11:10I give you a good example in my world.
11:12If I go to go to work tomorrow, and it's supposed to rain,
11:15and I have an expectation of what I'm supposed to do tomorrow,
11:17Jonathan, and then all of a sudden it's sunny,
11:20I should absolutely get more done than I was going to,
11:23because the situation has changed.
11:25Yep.
11:25But, so, this is the Cavs, this is their situation.
11:28So they have to make it to the NBA Finals,
11:29or else we've got to make some changes?
11:31I don't, look, and I'll tell you this,
11:33I'm not saying we, it depends on how we lose.
11:35You started to get to it, you know,
11:37just thinking it was Atkinson right off the bat,
11:38I totally disagree.
11:39I think it could have been, you know,
11:40the way we were going down that series,
11:42if Jared Allen doesn't actually come out of his shell
11:44in the third quarter last night,
11:45it could have been on him.
11:46I mean, if the answer is, every year,
11:48you either have to make it to your league's championship series,
11:52or, you're sorry, the World Series, the Super Bowl,
11:54or the NBA Finals,
11:56or else drastic changes have to happen,
11:58then you're going to be changing a lot of things
12:00a lot of the time.
12:00But when have we ever had that approach before?
12:03No, I think it's more about...
12:05Like, real quick, Mike,
12:06when have we had that thought process
12:10on the Cavs previously?
12:10When have we ever said the Eastern Conference Finals
12:12wasn't good enough either?
12:14That's a question with a question.
12:15When have we ever...
12:16It's the right question, though.
12:17Aren't there times where teams do go all in on a season
12:20where the expectation is,
12:22all right, we've experienced something previously,
12:24but now it's the time to go forward?
12:25Aren't there times when they've never made it out
12:26of the second round
12:26and they go to the Eastern Conference Finals,
12:27it's enough to be like,
12:28all right, we're headed in the right direction.
12:29I've never forgot.
12:31Mike, don't you remember when we traded for Donovan Mitchell
12:33and we said we just hoped to get out of the second round
12:35of the playoffs one day?
12:35Yeah, right.
12:36No, well, look at our...
12:37What's our salary?
12:38We have a salary that's...
12:39Highest paid salary in the NBA.
12:41You should be accomplishing things, for sure.
12:43No one's denying that.
12:44Yeah, but the Eastern Conference Finals is an accomplishment.
12:46Well, it is, but based on the change of it now,
12:49we really should move further.
12:51Like I said, it's just like those things.
12:52You've got to stay in it because you never know.
12:54Right now, it looks like that year
12:56when San Antonio took it down on us
12:57when we got there with LeBron when he was young.
12:59It's looking like that, you know,
13:01like we're just going to be fed to the Western Conference,
13:03but you never know what can happen,
13:04and that's why you've just got to stay at it
13:07and go hard.
13:08But I do agree, you know, on one thing you did say, Jonathan,
13:11like I said, as far as your take on,
13:14the fact that, you know,
13:16I like the fact that I think it doesn't really matter
13:18what we know about Bickerstaff.
13:19I don't really think that helps much.
13:21What he knows about us could be helpful.
13:23We're in for a little bit of a dogfight.
13:25They are going to come after us, I think.
13:26Pretty nasty.
13:27I think you're right on that, too.
13:29But we have more talent, and we should win.
13:31We're much deeper 1 through 10 than they are.
13:34We should win.
13:34We got a boogie, Mike.
13:35We appreciate you, buddy.
13:37Thanks, guys.
13:37That's the arbiter of J.P. and Mize's disagreement
13:41earlier in the show.
13:42We get one arbiter.
13:43It was the first guy to call in.
13:44I can't help it.
13:45We don't even know where.
13:46No back story.
13:48It was independent arbitration.
13:50I don't even know if he's a basketball fan.
13:52He sounded like it.
13:53He sounded like a real ball-knower to me.
13:54He sounded like it, but I don't even know.
13:56Sounds like he knows ball.
13:57That's our one arbiter, I guess.
13:58That can't help it.
13:59You're, like, over here, like, hands up in the air,
14:00like, yes, I won.
14:02Yes, I got it.
14:03I won.
14:05Yes, I did.
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