When Jesus Becomes a Demigod: The Theology Behind Modern Apostolic Movements | John McKinnon

1 week ago

John Collins and McKinnon examine how twentieth-century revivalism helped construct the theological architecture behind today's apostolic networks. They trace how Branham's teachings--especially his denial of Christ's deity and promotion of adoption mysticism--created the framework later movements like the Latter Rain, Word-of-Faith, and NAR would amplify.

The conversation highlights how these systems subtly redefine Jesus, elevate prophetic authority, and reshape Christianity into a hierarchy of "initiated" believers while retaining the language of orthodoxy. By exposing connections between Branham, Gordon Lindsay, British Israelism, and modern charismatic governance structures, they show how historic heresies continue to shape contemporary supernaturalism and distort the gospel.
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Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, and friend, John McKinnon,

00:47the author of The Persuasive Preacher, The Gifted Prophet, and The Noble Politician.

00:52John, I feel like we have been focusing on a theme over the past few episodes. People are probably

00:58going to get tired of this, but it is such an important theme that I think people don't really

01:04recognize. Whenever I talk to many of the different groups that have spun off of Branhamism, from

01:10IHOPKC to Wimber's group, all the New Charismatic Reformation groups, the ones who are connected

01:20and associated with Bethel, those who are not, all of these different apostolic groups,

01:24I mention frequently that there's an architectural framework from which all of this

01:30was built, and I mention that Branham was at the center of it, and not many people really understand

01:36and fathom the depth of that statement. It really takes a lot of research, and I'll admit I have

01:44spent more hours than most people should researching it. You know, William Branham was the foremost leader

01:50of the post-World War II healing revival, and that is significant. If you look through any of the

01:57Voice of Healing magazines or the photographs from the era, you will find that all of these people

02:04were gathering together around it, and they thought it was going to be the end of day's revival. They

02:10thought, this is the big one. This is it. We're coming to the end. They were looking for World War III.

02:16I've not got into publishing it yet, but right before the Ladder Rain movement launched,

02:22Gordon Lindsay, who was William Branham's campaign manager through a large part of the revivals,

02:28he started preaching that World War III was here. It was imminent. It was tied to Christian identity.

02:35He actually quit his ministry and started publishing books on both British Israelism and Christian

02:41identity as identity was being developed. It was at the point at which it was turning racist,

02:47and I can't yet put my finger on it, but it looks very much like Gordon Lindsay was involved with the

02:53racist side of it, just due to the names of the organizations that was having him as keynote speaker.

03:00So there's a lot there. I'm still trying to digest it, but the bottom line is this. William Branham was

03:06part of this movement. He was a leader in this movement. People were gathering around thinking

03:11this is the end of days, and there was this cross-pollination of ideas, but Branham's voice

03:18was important, and I think that's the thing that people need to grasp. Otherwise, he would not be

03:23the foremost leader of the post-World War II healing revival. These people were gathering around to this

03:28idea. And then fast forward to today. You have today all of these different networks of apostolic

03:35groups that are teaching just horrifically heretical themes, and you can look at the connections as

03:42they go deeply into their roots. You'll find them all connected back to this latter rain thing that

03:48we're talking about. People like Cindy Jacobs, people like Bill Johnson at Bethel, all of these different

03:54groups. If you trace their histories back, you're going to find in some way, shape, or form they were

03:59influenced by this movement. Maybe not directly, some of them directly, maybe it was indirectly,

04:04but they all share a common thing. And if you understand what that is, which we're going to

04:11talk about today, you will understand why it has turned into the heresy that it did, but also

04:18understand that it was heresy from the beginning. So when these big names say Branham was a good man

04:24until he went astray, he was teaching, some of them even say sound doctrine until he went astray,

04:29but it was always this until he went astray, because they know it turned into a destructive

04:34cult. And few of them are willing to admit that the theology itself was the reason for the

04:39destructive cult. We're going to unpack that a little bit today, too. So very glad to have you

04:44back to talk through this. Well, John, I think we find ourselves here once again, and it's great to

04:49be back. It's great to continue on this discussion here. And we're going through part two of where we

04:55started from last time in episode five, you know, this will be episode six. But, you know, we're going

05:01to go through how the groups of the message and others have altered scripture. And, you know, we've

05:06gone through the views that they've had of who God is and how it's not scriptural. And we've gone

05:12through how the teaching mimics the ancient heresies taught back in the third and fourth centuries in the

05:18Christian church. And all these things are really nothing new, but it's really challenging, you know,

05:23the mainstream Christian church. And this day, the folks that come in contact with it, they have

05:29to, you know, you have to be, well, have enough knowledge to even refute what they're saying.

05:35So it takes a lot of study. But, you know, the reason the message people have to do all these

05:40gymnastics with scripture and even remove words, as we saw last time, and we'll see this time,

05:46and also change scriptures, because they know if they leave, if they openly leave the word of

05:53God. You know, if the ministers are teaching and plainly show that they're leaving the word of

05:59God and leaving things out, such as alterations, you know, such as what we've shown in John 1.1 being

06:05the main one, then they have no ground to stand on. And the congregations will see that very,

06:11very quickly. But instead, you know, if they would only take John 1.1 at face value, then they would

06:17have to acknowledge the existence of Father God and the word, which is God, and being with God in

06:26the beginning. They have to acknowledge that there's more to God's being than they're really

06:30teaching. You know, instead, they do alter the word of God and make it fit their theology. And some

06:35don't even touch these subjects at all, because they themselves don't know how to teach them,

06:40you know, and be in accord with scripture. Now, I truly believe there's people in these groups,

06:46you know, that want to be Christians, but, you know, it's really the cult that tends to harm them,

06:51or that does harm them. And it gives them an ultimatum, you know, believe our doctrine or burn

06:55with the unbelievers. And that's a pretty strong ultimatum. So let's continue on. You know,

07:00where we left off last time, I was quoting some scriptures or sermons from the Godhead series,

07:07and, you know, pulling out the quotes that explain what the message believes about Jesus

07:11Christ. And really, all I have to do this time is just read through them, and the people will

07:17quickly see the heresy involved there. But we've given a lot of background, you know, in parts one

07:22through five, but it's plainly to see now that they've put Jesus out of the Godhead, and they

07:28relegate him to one of the many sons of God. It teaches that Jesus, you know, can only be called

07:34God as long as God dwelled in him, and which was only from the river Jordan at baptism into the

07:40garden of Gethsemane, you know, when they say God was done with that body, you know. And it also

07:46removes these believers from the doctrine of depravity of man, because what it's done is create,

07:51you know, prideful thinking, because their view of being saved is just by seeing a manifestation of

07:56the supernatural in a prophet, you know, versus realizing, you know, their own depravity, and then

08:01repenting and bowing the knee of Jesus Christ as being God. Philippians 2.10 does say that

08:08at the name of Jesus, every knee should bow of those in heaven and on earth, and those

08:12under the earth. Every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the

08:18Father. Now, how can you confess Jesus Christ as Lord if you don't believe he's God? That

08:25defies explanation. So let's go on with this sermon, Godhead. It was their sermon number

08:31five. He said, now the interpolation is there by explanation, and the word was with God,

08:37going back to John 1.1. He said, I'm sorry it's even in there, but I can't change the Bible,

08:43but I can look at it and find out what it means, because if it weren't important and part of the

08:47living word today, it wouldn't be in there. And I would agree with that. God wouldn't have put that

08:51word with in the Bible if it wasn't very important to know what he's talking about. But here he said,

08:57I'm sorry it's even in there. But you'll notice what it is. In the beginning was the word,

09:03and what was the word? He said the word was God. So when it says with God, the word was with God,

09:11you have to know that there was a union here and that there is that which is under the actual God

09:17in himself, yet being a part of him, because it says was with God and was God. And he says,

09:24he goes on to say, this is a juicy verse for the Trinitarians. Well, because it actually proves

09:29the triune being of God here. And he's trying to refute this. He said, but Brother Bram demanded

09:36of us, now he demanded of us to clearly recognize and keep in mind that in the end time, that this

09:42is the only age in 6,000 years that is spoken of as perilous times. And the perilous times have

09:47everything to do with this verse, which I will show you as we go along. So see, this minister not

09:53only preached about John 1.1 in one sermon. He preached a multitude of sermons, but John

10:001.1 hung him up every time. And he had to say, well, I wish that word with wasn't there

10:06or I wish it wasn't even in there and I can't rewrite the Bible. But if I could, I'd certainly

10:11take it out. It's not that meaningful to you and so on and so forth. So I'll carry on with

10:17some more things he said about John 1.1. He said, John 1.1 is being questioned and questioned

10:22and questioned. You can sit here for 20 years under my ministry and leave here questioning

10:27John 1.1, actually quoting it as the prophet said it, and then turn it right back on Jesus

10:33when Jesus is not that one, no way any more than you are Jesus. You say, that's pretty

10:38strong. No, it isn't. It's nothing but the uncondemned truth. John 1.1 does not belong

10:44to Jesus. He has a part in it, but he's not the subject. But remember, Christ isn't the

10:49word in John 1.1. He's only the word that God gave through the prophets. And he became

10:55that whole word that God had given. So what he's saying here is when John 1.1 says the

11:01word was with God and the word was God, that wasn't Jesus. That wasn't Christ. But I would

11:07disagree with that. Strongly disagree with that. Because I would say it is Christ. It is

11:11Jesus. That's where he lessens Christ to be just one of the prophets. Here's this next

11:18one that I'm going to read here. It's a vessel which God speaks through, not really the being

11:23of God, and certainly not God himself. And then he also takes further and equates that

11:30same thing to William Branham's ministry, being just like Jesus, that William Branham only

11:37stood there when God came down and spoke through the vessel. And that's what he's saying, how

11:42Jesus became God in the flesh is because God came down and spoke through Jesus in the vessel.

11:48But Jesus didn't have to be God, just as Brother Branham didn't have to be God, but it's God

11:53speaking through him. So that's how they lessen who Jesus is. All right, so here he says,

11:59So Jesus himself admitted, and Brother Branham himself admitted that he was only a voice. He

12:04was the one that stood there when that one descended. Christ was identically the same.

12:10He was the one that stood there at the River Jordan when God came down. So you see what he

12:14did there. He just relegated Jesus to being just a man, not the being of God. As he was

12:22born Christ the Lord, he was not that until God came and dwelt in him. And so that just lessens

12:28Jesus altogether, John. And I think that's wrong to do that because I think you're getting

12:33on very dangerous ground to deny the deity of Jesus Christ being with the Father in the

12:39beginning.

12:40You know, that's just it. Whenever I was in the movement, there were people who would

12:44hear things like this that was pure heresy, and they would say, Amen. And they would say,

12:48you know, I've had conversations with people outside of the church who were talking theologically,

12:53and they would say, the outside world doesn't know the secret mysteries of this. And they're

12:58not really realizing that what William Branham was doing was nothing new. It was an ancient

13:03heresy condemned long ago in the ancient world. And that also William Branham was introducing

13:09themes that were of the pagan ideas of the ancient world. You know, he, like you said, he is against

13:16the Trinitarian doctrine for when he's speaking to oneness Pentecostals. What's interesting is he is

13:22not against it when he's speaking to Trinitarians. And he even says in a prayer that he accepted the

13:28third person of the Trinity. And you can't make those two reconcile. If he's accepted the Trinity,

13:34and he's also condemning anyone who accepts the Trinity to hell, you can't reconcile that. But

13:40people try to. And the point that's really, you know, you really have to understand is this.

13:47In the ancient world, there was usually an almighty deity that was a very wrathful god of vengeance,

13:56the king, basically, in the pantheon of the gods. And there were also demigods that would rise up into

14:04power, but they were a lesser god. They were a demigod. They were part human, part man,

14:08part human, part god, I should say. And that was part of the mythology. You had to understand that

14:14the almighty god is the all-powerful one. The demigod is the less powerful one, but it's still god.

14:19And what he is saying here is exactly that. He has literally turned Jesus into a demigod. And if you

14:26don't believe me, you can go to table.branum.org and you can do some searches. Just search for

14:31things like Jesus couldn't perform one miracle. He would say frequently that Jesus never could

14:37perform a miracle unless he first saw a vision from God. And what he's saying there essentially is

14:43Jesus was a demigod. Yes, he was God. He was empowered by God, but he was a lesser God. And

14:49that concept is really, really deep when you consider today's New Apostolic Reformation,

14:54because they're teaching many of the same things. Whenever they introduce the ye are gods theology,

15:00what they're saying is that Jesus was less, he was like us, and there's an almighty, powerful God.

15:06The difference is they use it in the Trinitarian form. What's really interesting is Branum tries to do it

15:12in the oneness form through a large part of the sermons, not all of them. Sometimes he is

15:18Trinitarian. But think of that. If you have a oneness form of God, but yet Jesus is less divine,

15:25Jesus is less deity, well, it can't be the same God. So it can't be oneness. What he's actually

15:31teaching is not oneness. He's going back to Trinitarianism, but deceitfully, he's repackaging

15:37it as oneness Pentecostalism to the oneness Pentecostals he's speaking to. And yet at the

15:42same time, he's preaching just pure heresy to the oneness Pentecostals. So this turns

15:47into just such a mess.

15:49So John, as we go on, I'm going to go back to this, the strong condemnation of believing

15:55anything else other than the prophet. And I'm going to show you, I'm going to quote something

15:59which shows you they have no tolerance. Message believers, as we know, as we were thrown out

16:04of the church, you know, they've got no tolerance for anyone who questions the prophet. You know,

16:09it's the very reason why I know ministers have been in fellowship with the message for

16:1540 years or more. And then the second you begin to doubt the prophet or say anything that

16:21might bring up a question, none of those relationships matter to them anymore, to the people that are

16:26fully brainwashed and stealing the message. Because they worship the prophet and his words

16:31only, and they give all their devotion to William Branham. Even though he's dead, they fail to critically

16:36think about the questions being raised because they've let William Branham's thoughts permeate

16:41their beings. It's to the degree that they're afraid to question anything because they fear

16:47their salvation will be taken away. They fear that bringing any doubt is just bringing a demon

16:52spirit into their life. Whereas we're strongly encouraged to question the spirits and to try

16:59the spirits to see whether they be of God. And the only way you can know for a fact that

17:04any spirit that's teaching you something is of God is if it corresponds with scripture.

17:10So there's nothing wrong with bringing challenges to what someone's teaching and

17:14bring it alongside the Bible. But these people just totally throw that out the window and

17:20all those dear relationships of 30, 40 years are thrown out the window, even family members. And as

17:26you know, you and I have experienced that as well. And many others have. So in another sermon here,

17:33this is where he invokes the prophet again. He says, so William Branham, vindicated of God, according to

17:38these scriptures, said, if you make Jesus the word, you have three gods. He said, now this is the crux.

17:45So after I filtered through all these sermons here to get down to some of these words here,

17:49he's finally telling you, playing out what it is. He said, is the word God or is it Jesus? Now he said,

17:58Brother Branham said, if you make the word in John 1, 1, Jesus, you have three gods. Of course, you can make

18:04it two gods, but the audience he spoke to was part Jesus only, part Trinitarian in doctrine about the

18:10Godhead. So William Branham stood somewhere in between the two. He wasn't Trinitarian, and certainly he

18:16wasn't Jesus only because he would say God had a son. Jesus only would say it was the father that

18:22played all three parts. So then he also says, for they must bow to this prophet's declaration of John

18:291, 1. It is not Jesus, the man, the son of God, born to a virgin Mary, but it is Jehovah Elohim himself,

18:36period, exclamation point, mark, amen and amen. He said, so now if you're looking at this through Mr.

18:43Lambs' eyes, and he mentions Lambs of Bible, he says, you are saying that Jesus is God. Well, Jesus is not God.

18:52God is Elohim, and Jesus is the son of Elohim. So right there, he's making that plain statement that Jesus is not

19:00God. He was just a son. And then he also says, Brother Branham took us to the beginning when the sun came forth as a

19:08light. And we showed last time that the Arian heresy described Jesus as coming out of the father as a

19:15light. He said, and then God forming that body by creating the sperm and the egg, which he has to be

19:21a physical factor in order to manifest life, wrapping himself in it to produce the DNA circuitry. And then

19:28the sun could step in and come forth as a born one. But when he did, he had a memory which you and I never

19:34had. So you see, Jesus as being born of God in the beginning, coming out from God, but not being

19:41with God. He was actually formed. But he had a memory of being formed in the beginning. That's what

19:46he's trying to say. Whereas he would say, you and I in the bride, we're in God like Jesus was. But we

19:53had no memory of that because we came into sinful bodies. And God himself created a body for Jesus to

19:58come down in. But Jesus still had the memory of where he came from. And all we're trying to do here is

20:04wake up to where we came from by seeing a manifestation of the prophet of God in some

20:09supernatural way. So it just totally bypasses repentance and all that. Because why you need

20:15all that when you came from God to begin with, and all you in your soul was already righteous before

20:20God. But that's just contrary to Bible teaching, because we know there's none righteous, no, not

20:24one. And all are on the same playing field. But here's another way he invokes the prophet so

20:31you won't try to question his teaching. He says, no matter what you know, you cannot prevail

20:35against the prophet who is vindicated by God, because God is eyeballing you in the prophet.

20:40And you are eyeballing God in the prophet. And he says right there, thus saith the Lord,

20:46this is John 1, 1, which this is Jehovah Elohim, it is not Jesus. And he said, I don't care then

20:53what anybody says, how one tries to finagle around it, and do this and do that and say,

20:57Brother Branham also said in many, many, many places that Jesus was the Word. Yes,

21:02he was the Word. But Brother Branham said, the prophets were part of the Word, but Jesus was

21:08the whole Word. And this Bible sets forth that one who is the Word within the Word, which is written

21:14here. He said, Jesus as the Word is not God the Word. So what he's saying here is that Jesus is a

21:22part of the Word, and he's only a part, he's not the whole. God is the only whole Word. But Jesus came

21:29out from God, so he's only a part of God, not fully God. But him coming out from God, he was a

21:35little Logos. So you could call him Logos, but you can't call him the Logos. In the same way the bride

21:41becomes a Word bride, she can be called the Word of God, but not the Word God. But she is a part of the

21:49Word. It's all the same thing. He said, Jesus as the Word is not God the Word, but they better be

21:56Word, both better be Word, because I've never seen a horse produce a cow. I can't see God whose Word

22:02would produce Word, who wouldn't produce Word's sons. It's just that simple. He said, all right,

22:08we've taken a little journey away from our subject, wherein I again show you that people believe that

22:13Jesus is the Word. And he is not the Word as a capital T-H-E Word. In this case, this is capital T-H-E

22:22Word, Almighty God. Jesus is also Word, and I'll say a little Logos. And remember, Jesus is the Son of

22:30God, but he is the only begotten, uniquely born, one-of-a-kind Son of God. He said, but we are also

22:36sons of God. So he's lessening Jesus here, but still in God, you know, as Jesus was in the beginning

22:45coming out from God. So this minister says, you know, we're also sons of God. And what he's done

22:52there, he's lessening Jesus to just being a son, whereas we also are sons of God, just like Jesus.

23:00So we were also in God in the beginning, as Jesus was in God in the beginning and just was born out

23:06of God. So I hope this is all coming clear to listeners. Let me read one more. He said,

23:12so when you see the word son, do you just talk about Jesus or do you talk about yourself also

23:17in a lower order? So all this, I hope it's becoming clear. You know, the message really is nothing but

23:24heresy. And when it comes to explain the Son of God, it even dives deeper into heresy.

23:30I'm just going to quote from a few more sermons here to nail it down.

23:34He said, this is quoted scripturally, God created all things by Christ Jesus. He said,

23:39it didn't say Jesus is doing it. He said, God's doing it. The Son is now empowered with the

23:45omniscience and omnipotence in a measure. So here he's teaching Jesus is not really deity. It's just

23:51like we go back to the former minister we talked about in the little cartoon illustration that he had,

23:57deity stepped into Christ. And that's how Jesus spoke as deity because God stepped into that form.

24:04But the form itself was not deity. So he says, in a measure, because God don't use it all,

24:11just the measure that his Son and through his Son and by his Son as is necessary for the glory and

24:17grace of God and getting his purpose done. He says, see now you can trace us down from the seed of God

24:23right back there when we were in him, seed, even as Jesus came down in flesh, like us,

24:29becoming like us and into visibility. Elohim invisible became the logos or word, which he

24:35really was inherently to become a form. He said, now you trace us down from the seed of God,

24:41even as Jesus came down in flesh like us. Brother Brown said so, becoming like us into visibility,

24:47Elohim invisible. So if you're seed of God, you will be born again. And if you're seed of God,

24:54born again, you will receive the prophet and the message. If you're born again, you'll understand

24:59Godhead. You will enter into the mysteries. You will be initiated into the mysteries. And knowing

25:05the mysteries, you now belong to the sacred club called the bride. And John, I'll say it's just like

25:11maybe a, uh, uh, maybe a, a lodge or something, you know, they're in, they have to be initiated into

25:17the mysteries. But you know, I would almost venture to say that if you go into any message church that

25:23tries to be mainstream, they've not really gone deep into these subjects here, like we're, we're

25:27going into now. And they've not really gone down the rabbit trail we've gone down. But you know,

25:33I'll say if they, if they're not, they're really not preaching the message to begin with,

25:36because the people really need to know, you know, what the message is really teaching.

25:41Because isn't it not that you have to know the mysteries to be raptured and receive rapturing

25:46faith? Well, I would say the message preachers need to make up their mind. Are you either going

25:51to teach your people these mysteries about who Jesus really is, uh, according to the message,

25:57or, you know, they're not going to be initiated to have rapturing faith. Uh, so I think it's a real

26:03contradiction there. Uh, but it will be very interesting to know what, what all the sincere

26:09believers in these churches really would think about such doctrines of these.

26:12You know, that's just it. I truly believe that there are sincere people who are in these

26:17movements and, uh, charismatic movement, NAR, Pentecostalism, et cetera. I just don't think

26:22they're aware of the deep heresies that are involved in the movement because not many people

26:27have the ability to think things out to their logical conclusions. And worse, there are people

26:33who show up to church on Sunday and they just shut off all critical thinking. So there's never even

26:37a chance for them to think them out to their logical conclusion. But those who are preaching

26:42the little God's doctrine, Jesus has to be a lesser deity because you're going to be like God.

26:47Therefore, you're going to be like the demigod Jesus. It's literally turning Jesus into a demigod

26:52God. And to D you know, the D deification of Jesus to follow that out to its logic logical conclusion,

27:01Jesus cannot be God. If he's a lesser God in Christianity, there is no lesser God. There is

27:06only one God. And the Bible is very clear about this. Jesus was not just some God like figure in

27:13the, in the context of the Bible scriptures. Jesus was God. Jesus read, you know, the beginning of

27:18John, it goes through that very clearly. And the idea of being adopted, this adoption theme,

27:25there are so many different forms of this theology. Again, it's a framework that so much was built upon.

27:33Think through the manifested sons of God doctrine. That's something that's common in a lot of the NAR

27:38groups. And to believe that doctrine, you literally have to believe that Jesus was a demigod

27:43and not the almighty God, because you too are going to become eventually a demigod. You're basically

27:48reinventing the Greek and Roman pantheons of, of the gods and demigods and creating it and calling

27:54it, rebranding it and calling it Christianity. And, you know, you can take this as far as you want.

28:00You can connect it. If you look at the themes that are being preached at Bethel, you can find it there.

28:05IHOP KC, the, um, you can just literally go down the line. Anything that has an apostolic prophetic

28:11governance scenario, you're going to find it in that doctrine. But even right down to just the

28:17little apostolic churches on the corner, you who will say, we're nothing like this. We're not

28:22teaching NAR. You're going to find different themes that align with this concept that Jesus was a far

28:27lesser God than the Bible clearly states. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started

28:33or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic

28:39and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on

28:45William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the

28:52website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

28:59John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

29:04You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

29:10movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking

29:16the Contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video

29:22version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,

29:27we want to thank you for your support.

29:29So, John, I like your explanations and how you just put things together like this and

29:33with the whole broader picture in mind and all your explanations. But what I'm doing is just

29:38analyzing this information and just putting it out there and trying to inform the public

29:42about these things and those that sit in these churches for years and never heard of any of these

29:48things and can't find time to study, you know, these things out very thoroughly. You know, so the

29:52message doctrine we're talking about is not really new, as we said, in the early, say, first couple of

29:58years of Christianity, you know, the church fathers dealt with these same topics about God and his

30:03son. You know, it's just a rehashing of those things. And there's another ancient tradition that

30:10we mentioned that describes Godhead as a mask. It's called modalism. God wears masks to perform

30:16various roles, you know, being the same one, but just jumping into different roles. And that's

30:22strongly associated with modalism, also known as civilianism, named after the man. And it's also

30:28known as modalistic monarchianism. And the theological perspective of that emerged in the early

30:34centuries of Christianity and is considered a non-Trinitarian heresy, you know, by the mainstream.

30:41I'm going to continue on with this minister and what he says here, which is quite amusing to me.

30:47He said, the more you hear, Brother Branham, you're going to hear, oh, it sounds like Jesus only.

30:51And he sure does. But he tells you, I'm not one that's organized because Jesus is not his own

30:56father. Tells you flat, I am not Trinitarian then. He told us now there's two of them. One is not God.

31:03One's the only begotten. As long as you know, he's the son of God born. He wasn't created by God. He

31:08was born a God. Now listen to that. Born a God. That I know the truth, the only begotten son of God. I

31:14know the terminology, what Logos really is. And I know it applies to the father in the case of John 1.1.

31:20I know it applies to the son and other cases down the line. And I would say like when there's

31:26been a manifestation of Christ in the various forms, such as the prophet, such as the pillar

31:31of fire, such as the cloud by day, and so forth, and the rock that followed Israel in

31:37the wilderness. And he also says this at the very last. He says, but there's times when I'm

31:42confused. Now I'd say no wonder this minister gets confused because I don't think anybody can

31:48begin to study the message of William Branham and not really get confused. But it's amazing

31:54that he can be as coherent as he is in bringing out what the message is really teaching here.

32:00And William Branham spoke a lot of times on both sides of the argument because like he

32:04said, you think he's Jesus only here and you think he's Trinitarian there, which made what

32:09he taught sound like it was scriptural because he would always speak to the audiences the way

32:13they wanted to hear it. But when you see just what I read to you there, it's totally outside

32:19of scripture to say Jesus was a lesser being or not even God. Jesus is only a form of God and then

32:27only enough of that form that God needed to use at the time. And the Christian is also exalted

32:34alongside Christ as being equal to Christ from the same time Jesus was conceived in God's mind,

32:39neither the bride was. Then they make the leap to make you God. That's how you get this little

32:46God's concept. It's very subtle. And if you take step by step, you'll eventually be led into that.

32:53But it's very subtle and becomes exactly what I'll say the serpent said to Eve in the beginning. He

32:58said, you'll be like God if you know these secret mysteries. And let me read a couple of quotes from

33:05William Branham now in 1962, Wisdom vs. Faith. He said, and if you are born again, child of God and

33:12got the Holy Spirit in you, you are the manifestations of God's spoken word before it was a word. And the

33:19thoughts was in God. And then we were in God in eternity. And we were spoken into existence by the

33:25word. And the same sermon, he said, therefore, I like to ask the question, how can we ever make sense

33:31out of the word the eternal sonship of God? If he was a son, he had a beginning. So here we see

33:38William Branham plainly saying Christ, Jesus, had a beginning. He could not be eternally with God in

33:45the beginning. So as you see what this minister said, William Branham said about John 1, William

33:51Branham is saying that plainly now, Jesus was not with God in the beginning. It was only God in the

33:57beginning. The son had a beginning. And see, that's very contrary to who God really is, because

34:03Jesus was as eternal as God is from the beginning. And that word was born in flesh and a baby as God

34:11himself. And that word was the same one with God in the beginning. It wasn't God the Father, but it was

34:18the word of God being God himself to co-equal with God that was born. So Jesus did not have to wait to be

34:2630 years of age to be God. He was born God in the flesh. So let's go on with what this minister says

34:32here. He said, or you could take every thought and bring it into captivity what Brother Branham said

34:36and judge it by the actual reality of the doctrine. It's kind of funny. He said, just take all your

34:44thoughts captive and bring them under the captivity of Brother Branham and just judge the actual reality

34:50of the doctrine. Don't take the scriptures now because you'll definitely get confused if you try to

34:54pull scripture into it. Just take the reality of the doctrine and bring your thoughts into

34:59captivity to Brother Branham. And he said this, this is his statement after that. There's one God and

35:05Jesus is not God. He's the son of God. And listen to these heretical statements. He said, he can be

35:11worshiped and called God as the prophet right up there with Elohim because even the prophets down here

35:18were God to the people. Yes, we can do that, but he's not God. He's the son of God.

35:23And he was in the adoption. As you and I are coming into it and are today, there's one God, period.

35:31And Jesus is the son of God and therefore in his own right, a God. So right there he's telling you,

35:38you know, we're coming into the adoption and Jesus came into the adoption. Now that word adoption is

35:44what this whole series is all about. Seeds of adoption. How it got to where it started from

35:49as the seed doctrine and how it's come all the way to what, how William Branham taught adoption.

35:56And our next episode, I'm going to go into that very deeply. And that was my whole purpose in

36:01getting into this actually is to show you how he totally was contrary to the word of God on his

36:06teaching on adoption. So let me go on here. He said, he was in the adoption as you and I are coming

36:11into it. And we'll see what was said about that next time. He said, and you, I, and I, to whom the word of

36:17the prophets have come, have received it in our own right. We are lesser, but gods because we are

36:24of God, right? Genetics, species, the God race, the father and his family directly descended from

36:31him, life of his life. So they believe the message teaches that you come to earth with God's gene

36:38already in you. Not that you were dead and your new birth actually puts God's word in you, but that

36:45you came from heaven already from eternity past with the gene of God. So therefore it was a righteous

36:51seed, but totally contrary to scripture, because the Bible says there's none righteous, no, not one.

36:58And like I've said a couple of times already, this episode, we're all on the same playing field.

37:03We all have to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, the only name given among men

37:07where we were saved. And, and Jesus was fully God from the very beginning. So let's read on, on another

37:15message here he teaches on Godhead. And this is his 14th message, by the way. He says, so then that soul

37:22within you never did sin. It always was saved. What went astray? Your body went astray. That's why the

37:29Holy Ghost comes in and seals you to the day of redemption that you can give, get your body back.

37:33So, so look at this. This is where the pride comes in because when they study out the message

37:39and they see things like this, you always were saved. Your soul never did sin. So it was always

37:45righteous. That's just totally contrary to scripture. As I just said, they said it was only your body you

37:50were born in that was sinful. And you really don't remember being a righteous son in the, in the mind

37:55of God in the beginning. Let's go on here. What he says, this is, this is total, total heresy here.

38:00Jesus definitely is not God. He's the son of God and his form. As I mentioned already,

38:06brother Branham said, the only difference between God and his son is that sons have beginnings.

38:12What do you mean sons have beginnings? Well, sons are procreated. The thought of having a son does

38:17not give anybody the ability to create one. So he's saying God, you know, procreated the son,

38:24Jesus. Not that Jesus existed in eternity past, but he had to be procreated. He said, that's why

38:31Jesus was in the image of God. And that's why when God said, let us make man in our image, it was made

38:37in the image of Jesus. And it came out of man. That's why brother Branham said, God was the first

38:42man. Jesus was the second man and Adam the third, because God comes in threes. He said, what for?

38:50Not as persons, one, two, three gods, but God doing what he did to bring forth himself through

38:56children. All right. So, so right there, he's just saying that what, and that's what also what

39:02the first minister we quoted was saying, God is becoming a family. So God is only taking part of

39:08himself. Each time a person is born is predestinated to be born again. He's only taking part of himself

39:15and putting them into these bodies. And then he's, he's saving them, of course, and then bringing

39:20them back into himself so they can be God as well. Totally loses your perspective the way we should

39:27be with God, which will forever be bowing the knee before Jesus Christ and God's throne. And knowing

39:33that we were sinners in the beginning and we had no hope and we were without God in the world,

39:38except that God would have mercy on us. So here he goes on another heretical statement. So Jesus

39:45can't be deity. When we consider true deity, he was the son of deity, son of God. And since, since

39:52elevated by God, he's worthy of worship, but not as God is worshiped. He can't be. And how was he

39:59equal with God? Because he was first begotten son of God. So therefore, positively, typically, he was

40:06equal in the inheritance because it split the kingdom right down the middle. Now, how can I even

40:11say that? You know, God's kingdom is one and it's not split down the middle and part given to the son

40:16and part left for the father and part left for the bride. You know, God's kingdom is one. So God

40:23being father, son, Holy Spirit did not split a kingdom up. He said, but God didn't split himself down

40:29the middle. God didn't split his sovereignty down the middle. He had an equality talking about Jesus.

40:34The same as Brother Brown says, Satan was one time equal with God and led in the worship.

40:39So he's, he's even placing Satan on par with Jesus here. He said, was he equal with God as per

40:46Godhead? Talking about Jesus. He said, oh, don't be ridiculous. Was he equal then in the majesty and

40:52glory and power? Don't be ridiculous. But Jesus is not deity. I'm talking now of sovereign, supreme,

40:58one and only God, period. And the son refused worship and said, put it on God. Don't worship

41:04me. Worship God. Yet God raised him to the place where he can be worshiped. So is he deity? He said,

41:10in a sense, you might say a demigod, a demideity in a particular way. Again, John, this is just

41:17outright heresy. No doubt about it. He's calling Jesus a semi-god, a demigod. You know, he's only

41:25worshiped because God exalted him into a place where he could be worshiped. That's the only reason

41:31he deserves worship. Now, I mean, how can they bring Jesus, the very God of the universe, down

41:37to such a level? It's just disgusting. And, and he said, the Bible said, when God raised him,

41:42Peter's sermon at Pentecost, he's made him both Lord and Christ. He said, in other words, God made him,

41:48he came from God, a part of God. And God said, you will be Lord in Christ, but you'll pay a price for it.

41:53So here he has Jesus having to work out his own salvation to be Lord and Christ. Jesus had to

42:00pay a price. But I'll say again, Jesus was born Christ the Lord. There's a baby born in the city

42:09of David, Christ the Lord, as was told to the shepherds. So here he's saying that Jesus had to

42:16pay a price so he could be made Lord in Christ. He said, and God doesn't change, but the Bible said he

42:22was born Christ the Lord already, as I said, not that he would be made Lord in Christ. He was

42:27already from eternity past that. And all right, now he goes on. He said, he says the same thing

42:35to you and me. So here's, he's exalting the bride. God is now working to put everything under the feet

42:40of Jesus except himself. Why? Because he's a sovereign God and Jesus is not God. This is part of the

42:48elevation of God, Jesus's son, God's son, Jesus for what he did. Now listen to this statement. This

42:54blows you out of the water. Remember, he is worship not for who he is. I hope that sinks in. Jesus is

43:01being worship not for who he is, but for what he did. He wouldn't have done what he did except for

43:07who he is. That's a, that's a circular statement, but he's even saying Jesus, because he did what he

43:15did, that's why he's worship, not because he's really God. He said, now that's coming. Jesus then

43:21is not sovereign God. He's not deity. He's only deity insofar that he's a son of God and he acts

43:26just like God, speaks just like God, maybe even looks just like God, dresses like God, whatever God

43:32wants. Now, if you have a son that manifests you completely, you can step out of the way and let him

43:36go ahead. You just give him the key and that's adoption. That's exactly what brother Ram spoke

43:41of. His name is on the check as good as the father's. So, so that's what I'm going to get

43:46to in the next episode here, this adoption that he's talking about, because he's now saying, you

43:51know, the son had to be adopted and then his name is as good on the check as the father's. And that's

43:56the only way he's beginning to act like God. And that's how they make the leap to say the bride's

44:01going to be acting like God, you know, speaking things into existence and so forth.

44:06Now, now you can see how ridiculous you can get with these things when you step out of

44:12line with the guidelines and the principles. When Brother Brown said, and I'm quoting him

44:17now, not myself, but I'm quoting him. Now he said, you can see how ridiculous you can

44:21get. When Brother Brown said, listen to me, if you make John 1, 1, the word Jesus, you have

44:27three gods. He said, and it places it right there that Jesus is not God. See, I tell you,

44:33I believe Jesus deity, which we have had the people here do that as an entire misunderstanding

44:38or no understanding of seed. That God is the father, the progenitor, the author, the all

44:45in all of a race of his own children, genetically, legitimately, spiritually, physically, every

44:50single way. Jesus is right on par here as not deity. Now, what we see here, I want to read

44:56this other verse. The verse I wanted to read to you because of the fact Jesus not being

45:01deity as people want to place him because he's given great authority and power by God

45:06and equality to God, but he's not God. So, you know, this just goes on and on. I'm just

45:13quoting here, taking these little snippets out of his sermon. He also mentioned, God

45:17is not our creator. He's our father. He's our source, our progenitor. Call it what you

45:21want. Out of the great fountain, God came every one of his sons and nothing else came

45:26from that lifeline because the Bible said in him was life. He said, in fact, Jesus is

45:32exalted and multiplied. If you didn't have that life in you from God, that soul life from

45:36God, there'd be no life in you. So, here he's exalted the bride again and, you know, saying

45:42because God's our father, you know, we were seed into God's mind in the beginning. Now, this

45:48harkens back to serpent seed. This is how the serpent seed doctrine is probably the very

45:52foundation of this and how they believe that there's God's children being born on earth as

45:59righteous seed as well as serpent seed. And that's how they can make this thing twist it

46:06all the way they want to because they first start out with the serpent seed doctrine. But

46:10the people really don't realize they're being fed these false doctrines and heretical doctrines

46:15that really it'll eventually just damn their souls because they're convinced that the prophet

46:19is speaking for God and that he alone reads between the lines of Scripture, even what's

46:25not written. And we see he's taken the Bible out of context. He's taking words out of the

46:31Scripture. He's saying they don't mean what they say or it's better for them not to be there.

46:36So, even speaking truth only, and only because he seemed to have the ability to discern people's

46:44sicknesses, do they believe he's speaking truth? You know, that's going to be a very weak argument

46:49too when people finally meet Jesus and they have to say, why do you believe this man? Well,

46:53he discerned people's sicknesses and that seemed to vindicate him. But Jesus will probably answer,

46:59well, did not I say I would sin? There would be false prophets arise and show you great signs

47:04and wonders that could lead you astray. And so, we can't rely on discernment, discernment of

47:11diseases, sicknesses, no matter how miraculous it seemed to be. You can't rely on that. And you can

47:18only rely on the Scriptures. So, that's going to be a weak argument. So, when people follow this

47:23teaching, they don't realize they're following a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Scriptures.

47:28You know, why does this matter? Well, you end up believing all these wrong concepts, you know,

47:32about first the Godhead and how God eternally dwells as Father, Son, or Word and Holy Spirit,

47:39and about the true nature of man, who we are before God as sinners, and that all human beings

47:44are on the same playing field. You know, when it comes to God, as far as being called to believe

47:49the gospel, all are dead unless God acts on the human being in the act of salvation. You know,

47:56none will go to heaven without God acting on people to call them to salvation. And the worst

48:02end of this result of all of this false teaching, John, is that the gospel itself has been changed

48:08for a different gospel, a whole different Jesus. And that is the heart of the problem, right there.

48:15You know, whenever I first left the cult and I started examining all of the different things that

48:19Branham claimed, the doctrines that he taught, and began publishing highly critical information of

48:25William Branham, there were a number of people who contacted me and said, John, what does that

48:29matter? What is it? What is my own grandfather said, what does it hurt you to believe it anyway?

48:34In other words, why are you speaking out? It doesn't affect you in either way, if you join or if you

48:39don't join, if you stay with us or you don't stay with us, believe in God. That's essentially what

48:45they're saying. But yes, it does matter. If you are a Christian and you believe the Bible,

48:49it really, really matters if you're believing in a Jesus that's not the same deity that is

48:55described in the Bible. You're essentially, like you said, it is a different Jesus. It's a different

48:59God. And therefore, it is a different religion. It's not Christianity. You can't say that it is a

49:05Christian religion if the Jesus that you're teaching is a demigod. You just simply can't. I don't care if

49:11you're Branhamism. I don't care if you're Word of Faith, N-A-R, Pentecostal. I don't care who you

49:15are. Yes, you're believing in something. Yes, you're calling it Christianity, but it is not

49:20Christianity. It can't be, according to what the Bible says. And so for me, that is a huge problem.

49:27Now, I have friends who are in Islam. I have friends who are in different – one friend is a

49:32Buddhist. There are people who believe different things. And this is a historical podcast. I could go

49:40into doctrines of what's wrong with all of those as well. But the problem is this is being posed as

49:46Christianity. It's not like these people are coming and saying, hey, I'm joining the Buddhist

49:50compound, commune, whatever it is. They're saying simply, I'm a Christian, but I believe in this Jesus

49:56that's not in the Bible. And it's so deceptive. That's really the heart of it. It is so deceptive.

50:02And to be in deception like this, whenever you can be tricked and believe that you are something that

50:08you're not, in other words, believe you're a Christian and you're in a different religion

50:12entirely, well, what else can they throw at you? What else can they make you believe? And for me,

50:16that's the heart of the problem. And that's why all of these different movements turn to be

50:21destructive, because it's at the very core of its existence is deception.

50:26So, John, that just wraps up everything I wanted to say today. And I certainly believe it's a good

50:31stopping place, because next time we're really going to get into this adoption here and really lay it out

50:36there and how it was taught and how plainly it's just a total disregard of Scripture. It's just the,

50:42I guess, the uneducated way William Branham wanted to explain the Scripture to meet his own ends or to

50:50promote his own message. And he did that many times, and we showed that in other examples in earlier

50:56episodes. But I just scratched the surface of this, and we'll continue to examine some more of what

51:03these ministers say, perhaps. But it's leading up to the final climax here, and how this fed the

51:09latter reign believers in the 1950s, and bits and pieces falling into the NAR now. Because when

51:15William Branham taught adoption, he was way off Scripture. And all this background has been getting

51:21to this point. You know, the adoption is what everybody seems to be on the edge of their seat

51:25for, is that God's going to unleash some type of baptism of the Holy Spirit that's going to allow

51:32them to walk on water, to speak worlds into existence, to call down fire from heaven, to speak

51:37people out of existence. But we're going to really show what this is the next time. But I know doctrine,

51:45and we focused a lot on doctrine here in these last episodes, is very important. But, John,

51:50I want to emphasize to the listeners that it's even more important. It's good to have a heart

51:54that loves your neighbor as yourself. So regardless of us focusing on this doctrine, we still want to

52:02be sure we love our neighbor as ourselves and love God first. But, you know, in the message, we don't

52:06find a lot of love there when the truth is presented to them. You know, in fact, you tend to be scratching

52:12the cat in the wrong way and ruffling his feathers and fur. But I can love any person, you know,

52:19if they don't agree with me on these things, because, you know, I'm not mistake-proof. But I do always have

52:24to take the scriptures, and I believe that's our final authority there. So I hope that's what we

52:29accomplished here, and I do look forward to another podcast when we have more time.

52:33Absolutely. And I was trying not to laugh, man, rubbing a cat the wrong way. It's true, not even just with

52:38branimism, but with any of them. If you challenge their core belief set, in other words, if you challenge the

52:44fact that they're worshiping a demigod instead of the Jesus that is described in the Bible, they're

52:49going to simply attack you. But what's interesting is I mentioned I had a Buddhist friend, I've got

52:53people, my neighbors are in Islam. If you challenge them on their belief set, they will stand their

53:00ground and they will tell you exactly what they believe and why. I've done it. I've talked to my

53:05Buddhist friend, I was like, you know, I'm not certain that that's a good idea. And he went through and

53:11described the philosophies and all of the different things that he believes. And we had a healthy

53:16disagreement. I simply said, I choose to disagree with you. And that's the way it should be. But

53:22when you're in these movements of deception, you're trained that you must attack the enemy. That's the

53:27other core, at the very core of its existence is the thought that you must attack those who oppose you.

53:33And it is just so deceptive and so militant and so wrong. So we'll get into it a bit more.

53:40If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web. You can find us

53:44at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of Roy Davis and William Branham, you can read

53:50The Persuasive Preacher, The Gifted Prophet, and The Noble Politician. And for more about the dark side of

53:55the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR.

54:01Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

54:10You can trace the 나 rose.

54:13We'll discuss the중 in the future of my life.

54:15The local community is building a new world, and I am currently dealing with this

54:18key with new technologies. Which is the danger, there should be a massive

54:20goal, leaving that support for teemans. And the wayward me down there is that

54:22the list of more legislative domains would take you any more

54:34to thank females. I do that when I join in the lives of these these species. And what I

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