- 18 hours ago
In this episode, John is joined by Brantley and Awen to examine the recurring pattern of cover-up culture inside segments of the modern charismatic movement. From Bethel to IHOPKC and beyond, they explore how appeals to mercy, "don't look back" messaging, and the so-called "Moses model" of leadership can create environments where authority becomes untouchable and victims are silenced. The conversation reflects on personal experiences, prophetic culture, and how biblical language is sometimes used to shield institutions rather than protect people.
They also discuss whistleblowing in light of Scripture, the misuse of concepts like "touch not God's anointed," and the psychological dynamics that keep people compliant. This discussion addresses themes of spiritual authority, church governance, prophetic culture, abuse allegations, and the tension between forgiveness and accountability. Viewer discretion is advised due to discussion of sensitive topics.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
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– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also discuss whistleblowing in light of Scripture, the misuse of concepts like "touch not God's anointed," and the psychological dynamics that keep people compliant. This discussion addresses themes of spiritual authority, church governance, prophetic culture, abuse allegations, and the tension between forgiveness and accountability. Viewer discretion is advised due to discussion of sensitive topics.
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:41And with me, I have my co-hosts and friends, Brantley Smith and Alwyn Dunning.
00:00:46Brantley, Alwyn, it's good to have you back.
00:00:49It's widely popular, the one that we did last time, because I think, Alwyn, you bring another view into this
00:00:55puzzle that, quite frankly, Brantley and I are guys.
00:00:58And we just think one one-sided and you bring this you bring this female aspect to it.
00:01:03I'm joking.
00:01:04But you bring another perspective, I think, is the way that I would say it.
00:01:08You bring a perspective that helps us look inside this box that I think many people just resonated with.
00:01:14And so I'm glad to have you back and to talk through this mess that is brewing.
00:01:19But it's a mess that is a theme that I think I'm shifting gears to start to follow because I
00:01:25can trace it back in history.
00:01:27And that theme is the cover-up culture.
00:01:29There is a culture of cover-up.
00:01:31We've shown it in many different ways in Branhamism.
00:01:33But what many people don't realize is that cover-up culture continued through every iteration of this thing.
00:01:39And the further you go, the further you have cover-up culture, and the worse it gets.
00:01:45I wanted to mention before we really roll into things that your prophetic history so far is absolutely immaculate.
00:01:51You called it.
00:01:52There's a lot of messaging that's coming out of Bethel right now about spiritual warfare.
00:01:57And the social media posts are really continuing with, don't look back.
00:02:03Jesus has covered that.
00:02:05And then something that we also saw kind of in the IHOP scandal is this redirectioning from leadership to the
00:02:13people.
00:02:13So, to the people, repent of your sins.
00:02:17This is the time of revival.
00:02:18Look inward instead of outward.
00:02:21And Bruntley, you'll remember this.
00:02:23It was the saddest thing.
00:02:25Everything's blowing up at IHOP.
00:02:27People are wondering.
00:02:28There's a lot of cover-up going on.
00:02:30And they call a fast for the people in IHOP to repent of their sins.
00:02:35We're just like, oh, these people need care and love.
00:02:39Do you remember that whole thing?
00:02:41Yeah.
00:02:41It's fun to be here again this morning with you all.
00:02:43Oh, hey.
00:02:44Morning, man.
00:02:45Yeah.
00:02:46It was the black horse narrative stuff.
00:02:48And so, we had heard that there was allegedly a backroom meeting with staff to where they all got together.
00:02:55And they're like, hey, this is all spiritual warfare.
00:02:57We're going to go on a 21-day fast.
00:02:59But they all tied it back to Israel and all kinds of stuff as well.
00:03:02And so, it was all a mess.
00:03:05I think it's really what we're witnessing is concerning seeing what we have seen before because of so much of
00:03:14it is couched in language that seems legitimate and that seems like they are doing the right things or following
00:03:23the right things.
00:03:24Especially like whenever we're in the context of Christianity where forgiveness is such a core value to the Christian message
00:03:32that it makes people more prepared to, as Mike Bickle used to say, push, delete, and move on whenever there's
00:03:41not been any kind of restoration made.
00:03:43And so, I'm having a different response this time through because I'm not following it as close, but I am
00:03:50seeing it pop up in my news feeds and different things and on social media.
00:03:56And it pains me because, like we talk about all the time, it's a playbook and it gets repeated over
00:04:02and over and over again.
00:04:04But it's the world we're living in.
00:04:07You guys mentioned black horse, and I don't think I've said this before.
00:04:10We've talked about the black horse prophecy, but there's this weird thing that happens in the prophetic culture.
00:04:16If you can mention a phrase that you can find in the Bible, but it's completely different.
00:04:22It's your own.
00:04:22It's your own prophecy.
00:04:23It's your own phrase.
00:04:24You're owning this.
00:04:26When people actually read, like, for example, the black horse, you read in Revelation about the black horse, the horse
00:04:32riders, etc.
00:04:33They'll read that, and they'll associate that with a prophecy, and in their mind, they make that link.
00:04:37And it's a tool of manipulation that not many people think about.
00:04:40You actually are manipulating yourself by reading the Bible because you're reading more into it than what is in the
00:04:47text because you're reading it into what the speaker said on the platform.
00:04:51You know, and I think, too, it's not that they're just whipping this out right now, right?
00:04:55There's been years of these types of teaching, this quote-unquote over-emphasis on mercy, you know, re-platforming.
00:05:06And so you can listen to all these different sermons, and they sound good and beautiful, right?
00:05:11Like you were saying, Brantley, as far as forgiveness and those types of things.
00:05:14But when there's a pattern of putting alleged predators or known predators on the stage over and over again, you're
00:05:22like, wait a minute.
00:05:24Let's think about this.
00:05:26The other thing is that, you know, now we know a few things that, you know, the Wake Up and
00:05:31Win podcast has come out with Sarah's story.
00:05:33Highly recommend people go over to there.
00:05:36Is it Faith Reframed, Brantley, where Jesse is talking about some of the things as well about, you know, the
00:05:44book that was put out that has some lies?
00:05:47Am I right there?
00:05:49I can't remember what the book's called, but yeah, I think so.
00:05:52It's not punishable, but, you know, we know some things that we didn't know the last time we did this
00:05:59podcast.
00:05:59I mean, here they have an alleged predator doing the offering and declarations right before they have the repentance sermon.
00:06:10Interesting, right?
00:06:12And, you know, there's these claims, we didn't know what happened 12 years before this incident, and there's just all
00:06:19of this, these videos showing they did know.
00:06:25And then there's these untruths in this book, and you hear Sarah's story, and you begin to realize, wow, she's
00:06:31been defamed.
00:06:33She's been considered somebody that was in agreement with what was going on, and that it was a quote-unquote
00:06:41affair.
00:06:42And, you know, when you hear that story, you just want to weep, because for one, I see so many
00:06:48similarities to a situation I went through in the church.
00:06:52So, it's very painful for a lot of people listening to those types of things, but you just watch how
00:06:57she over and over and over again was re-victimized.
00:06:59And so, those things aren't addressed.
00:07:02ShowMeTheToes.com was not addressed.
00:07:05Bob Hartley was not addressed, and the allegations there.
00:07:09And so, we're siloing repentance, and it's looking really good on the outside when there's all these other potential skeletons
00:07:17in the closet.
00:07:20Yeah, the thing that was most concerning to me, whenever I was looking back at some of the narratives that
00:07:25were floating around about it all, and I could be getting the details of this wrong, so if you know,
00:07:29please correct me.
00:07:30But it seems like before that leader got hired on staff that they knew about some previous indiscretions that he
00:07:38had, I guess, come clean about, and yet whenever it came time for her to live with them, that it
00:07:46was not mentioned at all, that she was unaware of it, that it was one of those things that should
00:07:52have been foreseen to be a bunch of prophetic people.
00:07:56You should be able to see that that was coming, and that's the issue that I have with churches in
00:08:01general is whenever you have somebody do something of that gravity, and it's just swept under the rug.
00:08:08Like, we saw it with the Gateway thing with Robert Morris that the elders knew and this and that, and
00:08:14that it was all, you know, it'd gone on, and it's just bad practice, bad practice.
00:08:19We got better HR practices in the secular world than we do in churches.
00:08:24Well, the difference is you don't have prophets in your HR department.
00:08:28That's true.
00:08:29I've gone back through history.
00:08:30I would love to say that Branham was the origins of this, but he was not.
00:08:34He was just one in a long line of men and women who were doing this.
00:08:37But if you can claim that you are the voice of God to the people, you're the prophet, you're the
00:08:43apostle, whatever it is, and you can put yourself in the authoritarian structure, you're at the top and everybody else
00:08:49is at the bottom, well, they can't question what you do.
00:08:52And there's no way to get around this.
00:08:55Even if they're open and say, we have an open policy, open door policy, if you find guilt, come tell
00:09:00us.
00:09:01Well, who's going to tell about this prophet of God?
00:09:04Nobody does this, right?
00:09:05And the culture has every step of the way, every iteration that I have looked at, and I've gone back
00:09:11long before Pentecostalism even was birthed, modern Pentecostalism.
00:09:16You find that there was this notion that we have – there are charismatic leaders.
00:09:23I'm not going to mention their name at this time, but they're charismatic leaders that say, we follow the Moses
00:09:27model.
00:09:28This is the Moses model.
00:09:29We're not Moses.
00:09:31We're just like you, but we have the Moses model.
00:09:34Well, what does that do to the minds?
00:09:35People think of, oh, Moses was God's prophet, God's anointed, touch not God's anointed.
00:09:40There's all that lingo that's – all the loaded language that's programmed, and where it ends up is you can't
00:09:46question the authority.
00:09:47What happens when the authority are, A, doing very bad things like we're talking about, but, B, some of these
00:09:55prophets, they're not really prophets.
00:09:57They're just making stuff up, and people are falling for it, but yet they're untouchable as well.
00:10:02And you have this array of – the Moses model has created a plurality of Mosesesees, if that's a word.
00:10:10Well, all of these Mosesesees are lifting each other up, knowing that some of them are false prophets.
00:10:16So, I'm not going to say that they're all false prophets.
00:10:18Maybe there is a real one in the batch.
00:10:20I haven't seen one.
00:10:21But even if there is a real one in the batch of all the false ones, and they're lifting up
00:10:25the false ones, I don't care if you are anointed from God.
00:10:28If you're lifting up a false prophet, you may be anointed by God, but you're evil.
00:10:33Yeah, I think – you know, I think about the person who's, quote, unquote, in the office of prophet at
00:10:39Bethel, making statements along the lines of,
00:10:43the church kind of eats up anybody that fails or makes mistakes in the world if somebody falls in the
00:10:50business, you know, whatever, you know, they're restored to their position.
00:10:54And, you know, and first of all, I'm thinking, no, when CEOs abuse, they get removed or they get sued.
00:11:05And, and by the way, why are we comparing it to, quote, unquote, the business world?
00:11:12The church should have higher standards than, again, the, quote, unquote, world.
00:11:17And so, these caste systems that are created, if you really think about it, really creates celebrity and place where
00:11:25you can't come forward.
00:11:27But let me say this.
00:11:29I have had so many people come to me.
00:11:32When you begin speaking out, there's all these people who have had their stories stopped.
00:11:38They've been silenced through indoctrination, programming.
00:11:41And when they've tried to do the right thing, I tried to come forward about my abuse and was stopped
00:11:48with twisted scripture and everything else that you can imagine.
00:11:52And after a while, you just know that no one's safe, and so you stop.
00:11:57And so, you know, they go to unsafe people, share their stories, and then they're re-victimized, re-wounded again,
00:12:05and they don't even know what to do with it.
00:12:08So, you've got to go outside of those circles to get the care and the help that you need.
00:12:15I was young when everything happened to me, and the only person that even knew my whole story was my
00:12:24husband and my therapist until literally a year ago.
00:12:27I sat down with a pastor and his wife that I've known for years in my life.
00:12:31I've known them since I was 19, but have walked pretty closely with them for the last eight, nine years.
00:12:38And I finally shared my whole story, and sharing stories in safe places is so powerful, you guys.
00:12:45To see anger for what happened to me in tears was just such a beautiful thing, but I didn't have
00:12:52trust anymore after what I'd been through.
00:12:54So, I know I'm not the only one who's experienced that.
00:12:58I've not talked a whole lot about – I had an abuse situation whenever I was younger in youth group
00:13:05and such, and I looked at pursuing telling my story a little over a year ago or so, and tried
00:13:10to follow the right route, I guess, filing police reports.
00:13:15And I contacted the denomination directly, and I was trying to act in good faith.
00:13:21And I think that's like – I think we're kind of predisposed as starry-eyed, charismatic Christians to kind of
00:13:28like operate on good faith and look for the best in people.
00:13:32And luckily, the investigator that I connected with was – his wife worked for Grace, is what it was with
00:13:39Boz.
00:13:40And he contacted me and said that the church had lawyered up as soon as I talked to the denomination.
00:13:46And I see that in milder forms, not with as egregious of situations, but seeing the dismissal of harm in
00:13:56church environments.
00:13:57Just in the past little while, like I sat down with a pastor and, oh, you got a lot of
00:14:02church hurt, huh?
00:14:03We're going to prove you different.
00:14:05I wish – if I had $1,000 for every time that a pastor told me, we're not going to
00:14:12be like the last place.
00:14:13We're going to make sure that this is a better experience.
00:14:15We're going to show you something different.
00:14:18I'd at least be able to buy a car, at least, you know.
00:14:22And so, it's – the first time I got to share a story of harm and have it validated is
00:14:28a core memory for me and my wife.
00:14:30It was a random pastor that we had just connected with, and we sat down in his living room having
00:14:35coffee with him and told him what we had just experienced at church where we had gotten ran out of
00:14:40town, and it was awful.
00:14:42And he looked at us, and he had tears in his eyes, and he was like, I'm so sorry.
00:14:47Like, that should not have happened to you guys.
00:14:49And I remember we just started weeping because it was the first time – even our family, because our family's
00:14:54connected to ministry, and so they don't really know how to respond to those things whenever they see us get
00:14:59hurt in those contexts.
00:15:00So, to have somebody for the first time go, wow, like, that should not happen to anyone.
00:15:05I mean, that was – it was very, very validating.
00:15:08I've mentioned several times that one of the exercises I did when I left the cult was I read the
00:15:12Bible over and over and over to try to wash all this out of my head.
00:15:16But I've not gone into specifics because I'm not a Bible teacher.
00:15:20I don't want people to think that I am.
00:15:22However, one of the things that really hit me is – well, several things, the biggest of which is the
00:15:29version of Christianity they're teaching isn't the same as the book they're teaching it from.
00:15:33But the structure of the religion doesn't match the structure that's in the text.
00:15:41And what I mean by that is this Moses model culture, we have the anointed by God, and they go
00:15:46back to – I've actually heard, I think, the example that is given most often is David.
00:15:52David committed adultery, and look, he was the anointed by God.
00:15:56Well, if you understand what they're trying to say, they're trying to say, it's okay that David did that.
00:16:01And no, it's not okay that David did that.
00:16:04But the mindset of the people has been twisted so much that they actually think that that is okay, that
00:16:09that's a good thing David did.
00:16:11And there was – you know, there's a lot of problems with that.
00:16:14The example that I go to instead is Solomon.
00:16:18Solomon, if you read – I think it's Chronicles.
00:16:21Solomon was anointed by God.
00:16:22So that's the same exact example that they're talking about.
00:16:26But then if you go to Kings, Solomon fell into idolatry and brought idolatry into Israel.
00:16:32Is that anointed by God?
00:16:34Well, which God is anointed by?
00:16:35That is not a good thing.
00:16:37That's not a good thing that Solomon did.
00:16:39And if you look at the examples in the Bible where somebody did something that was horrific, there was usually
00:16:45an instance where the people rose up and said, no, we won't stand for this.
00:16:49When they teach the Bible, they never, ever talk about the part where the people rise up against them.
00:16:55And yet if they were a valid Bible teacher, they would say, I'm teaching you correctly.
00:16:58I'm doing the best I can.
00:17:00I know I make mistakes.
00:17:01But if I were to do something that was terrible, I would want everybody in this congregation to rise up
00:17:07against me.
00:17:07That's what a Bible teacher would do.
00:17:09But instead they say, no, touch not God's anointed.
00:17:12I think one of the misconceptions that I have heard a lot of times is that charismatics don't read their
00:17:18Bible.
00:17:19I mean, and by the way, like the stories that we're saying, there's almost like this spectrum.
00:17:23There's like, you know, really more mild all the way to the crazy extreme stories on the far right.
00:17:30Not everybody believes everything.
00:17:32So, I think a lot of people think that.
00:17:34But, I mean, I did a program at Metro, which was Mike's church before he started IHOP.
00:17:40We read through the Bible in a year.
00:17:42I memorized 8 to 12 scriptures per week.
00:17:45In the prayer room, you're singing the Bible.
00:17:48You're praying the Bible.
00:17:51But it's these lenses have come on.
00:17:54Scriptures have been cherry-picked.
00:17:55And so, they've been, you know, quite distorted.
00:17:58So, I think that this is kind of interesting.
00:18:00I want to show you guys something here.
00:18:02I don't know if you can even read that.
00:18:03And I have a box of prophetic words on tape that I have found.
00:18:10And these are, talk about digging for the gold.
00:18:13But I got a tape player off Marketplace.
00:18:17And so, a couple years ago, I dig into this box.
00:18:20And I got Cindy Jacobs.
00:18:22I've got all these different things.
00:18:23You know, I have the old Paul Kane word.
00:18:26And I got a word in 1995 from Bill Johnson.
00:18:32And interestingly enough, it's quite long.
00:18:34But he said that I would be a trumpet of purity, simplicity, and holiness.
00:18:38So, there you have it.
00:18:39But maybe...
00:18:40That's what you're doing, right?
00:18:41I mean, yeah.
00:18:42You know, Mike always told me that I was here for such a time as this.
00:18:45So, one of the things I want to talk about, and I'm going to hold this up.
00:18:49I have burnt all my cult books, but I have this book still because I'm going to hang
00:18:54on to this and I'm going to remember it.
00:18:56I did a program slash ministry that this was one of the chief books.
00:19:02And so, I heard two different pieces of teaching that affected me at a core level to the point
00:19:11where it was so subconscious, almost like muscle memory.
00:19:14You know, have you ever just driven to the grocery store and you're like, oh, wait, how
00:19:16did I get here?
00:19:17You know, I was thinking about other things.
00:19:18You don't even realize you're operating under it.
00:19:20And so, this book, the premise of it is kind of this leave quietly.
00:19:27And of course, you don't just read the book.
00:19:29You get teachings from it and discussions on it.
00:19:32And so, it's this thing of like, don't be an Absalom, be a David, interestingly enough,
00:19:37right?
00:19:38And so, you're leave quietly, don't be bitter, don't take anybody with you.
00:19:45And so, there's that.
00:19:46And then the other big teaching that I got there was the story of Ham.
00:19:52So, Noah, you know, gets drunk and he, you know, doesn't have clothes on and Ham walks
00:19:59in upon him.
00:20:00And then he goes to his brother and his brothers and he says, and they back in and cover him
00:20:06up.
00:20:06And so, you know, there's this teaching that's like, if you uncover your leader, you're going
00:20:13to be cursed like Ham.
00:20:14And look, the whole continent of Africa is cursed.
00:20:17By the way, like so much maybe racism in there.
00:20:20Oh, for sure.
00:20:23Oh my gosh.
00:20:24I did not know that.
00:20:26So, in the history, in fact, you can read it in my latest book.
00:20:29If you go through Christian identity, that's exactly what they were teaching.
00:20:33They were teaching that Ham was the origin of the curse and the curse was black skin.
00:20:38And then they go through this lineage that it happened in Africa.
00:20:41That's why they have black skin in Africa.
00:20:43So, it's more racist than you can possibly imagine.
00:20:46I mean, but like, you're so afraid.
00:20:48Literally, you don't even know, but you're so afraid to speak out about what has happened
00:20:53to you.
00:20:54And so, you see so many people leave quietly.
00:20:56I saw this mass exodus from afar at IHOP of all these leaders and the message is like,
00:21:01God's called us to a new place, like simultaneously.
00:21:04And I'm not saying God didn't call them to another place, but you find out now looking back
00:21:09that they had found all kinds of stuff.
00:21:11And there's this mass exodus, but there's this, there's intimidation and all those types
00:21:17of things as well.
00:21:18But there's the leave quietly and don't talk about it.
00:21:21So, can I just be honest, guys?
00:21:22Like, I'd rather just be living a quiet life on my little property here and planting fruit
00:21:26trees.
00:21:27Like, there's a lot of me that didn't want to come into this and speak into it because,
00:21:32first of all, it's disruptive to my body, my mind, everything else.
00:21:35But I think part of the healing for me is kind of breaking that silencing programming.
00:21:41When I first did the podcast with you, John, like, I didn't sleep two nights on the front
00:21:44and two nights on the end.
00:21:45You know, you have vulnerability hangovers and stuff like that.
00:21:48You're dealing with, you know, different levels of pain.
00:21:51But like, this breaking of silencing programming is real.
00:21:55It's real.
00:21:56And so, it's a little easier every time I do it.
00:21:59And so, I guess maybe some of this is a little healing for me, too.
00:22:03And now you know how I get so much done because I just simply don't sleep.
00:22:09That doesn't seem good, John.
00:22:12It's amazing, like, to see, because so many are conditioned to leave quietly.
00:22:17And that book you held up, Tell the Three Kings, one of my dear friends who listens
00:22:20to this podcast all the time, he had that weaponized against him and the organization
00:22:24that he was in.
00:22:25He was labeled Absalom and pushed to the outside and to be silenced.
00:22:30But what's surprised me is how many people come out of the woodwork on the back end
00:22:35who were experiencing the same types of things, the same times I was in the same environment.
00:22:43But we were kept, like, separated.
00:22:46We didn't know about each other's stories.
00:22:48We didn't know that we were going through similar things.
00:22:50And all it's taken is me having a little bit of vulnerability to talk about it on social
00:22:56media or something like that to post something about abuse in church environments and different
00:23:00things like that periodically.
00:23:02And just people come out of the woodwork, just people you would never expect who experienced
00:23:08severe harm.
00:23:09And it was the same kind of things.
00:23:10Like, it's the protection of the institution, the protection of the leaders at all costs that
00:23:15happens while, you know, the sheep are devoured.
00:23:19Like, that's literally what happens.
00:23:21I liked one of the things that Mike Winger said in his video where he was talking about
00:23:25if they can't get you on the substance of what you're saying, on the truth of what you're
00:23:28saying, they'll try to get you on procedure.
00:23:31And I would like to add to that tone, right?
00:23:34So, you know, I have received feedback that I have a bitter voice.
00:23:37I'm like, I'm sorry, this is my voice.
00:23:39Like, and I'm not going to talk in a sweet Proverbs 31 voice or diminish myself or talk
00:23:47without passion because you're uncomfortable with my passion.
00:23:51And you know what?
00:23:52Like, I think that, you know, you can be angry without being in sin.
00:23:57And I think that a horrible abuse should make us angry.
00:24:02And so, you know, that being said, procedure like, oh, you didn't do Matthew 18 is a really
00:24:07good one.
00:24:08And so people are going to listen to horrible allegations and they're going to strain the
00:24:16gnat and swallow the camel and be like, you didn't report R with the right voice.
00:24:22You didn't report, you know, the R word.
00:24:24I don't want to flag it here, John.
00:24:25And so I'm like, we like, you're okay with R because someone didn't say the sentence right
00:24:33or, I mean, I, one of the biggest surprises for me in this whole thing, I honestly thought
00:24:38we would come forward as whistleblowers.
00:24:40And I would tell Jean Doe's story from my perspective of all of the grooming and that
00:24:45people would be like, oh my gosh, I did not know that we were going to be fighting the
00:24:50church for them to think that R is bad.
00:24:55I feel so naive, a little dumb.
00:24:57I didn't realize the amount of indoctrination and programming, but really my voice is going
00:25:02to stop you from listening to the reality of my testimony of what I've been through.
00:25:06It's kind of crazy.
00:25:08You know, and that's just it.
00:25:09You mentioned how people perceive the way that you talk.
00:25:12I get the same thing, obviously.
00:25:13And my sense of humor, sometimes I laugh at things that I shouldn't and I can't help it,
00:25:19but I'm a result of what we came from.
00:25:21We came from that environment.
00:25:23We are bruised and we're burned.
00:25:25We're beaten from that environment.
00:25:27We are a product of that making.
00:25:29The problem is we saw it and the people who are still trapped in it, they can't see it.
00:25:34And so they're not yet part of that.
00:25:36When they escape and they go through all of the floods of emotion that we have, it actually
00:25:41changes your personality.
00:25:42And you like there are things about I go back and I edit my podcasts and sometimes I listen
00:25:48to what I say and I'm like, I can't believe that I said that.
00:25:51I'm that's so wrong.
00:25:52But I listen to it and I think, but you know, that's that's why I did this, because I'm so
00:25:57I'm warped from that culture.
00:26:00That culture has changed me in a negative way.
00:26:03So now I've got the whole rest of my life.
00:26:04I'm trying to change it for the positive.
00:26:06Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism
00:26:13transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic
00:26:19reformation?
00:26:20You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:26:27On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
00:26:33Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon and others, with links to the paper, audio and
00:26:39digital versions of each book.
00:26:41You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
00:26:47movements.
00:26:48If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
00:26:53button at the top.
00:26:54And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
00:26:59listening to or watching.
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00:27:07The perceptions that we have of how people will respond, because of the things that we're
00:27:13taught, like if I can like spin what you're saying a little bit, John, like I also see the
00:27:17positive of it though, in that I don't think I would value character and integrity.
00:27:24Um, in the same ways, if I didn't have that messaging in these environments.
00:27:29And so, like I, my family was, is deeply embedded in, in, in Pentecostalism, independent Pentecostal
00:27:35circles.
00:27:36Um, and maybe, maybe I just got, you know, a unicorn situation, but, but, but I think about
00:27:41those things that shaped me.
00:27:43And I think it's part of the reason why I stick around for these conversations is because
00:27:46I feel like I owe a debt of gratitude because the person that I am today with, with all the
00:27:53harm and, and the good stuff is, was shaped from those environments.
00:27:57It was, and like you're saying, I have witnessed like that personality change.
00:28:01It kind of happens over time.
00:28:02Um, but, but we like our perceptions of the world that we live in, what, like whenever
00:28:09harm, something disruptive happens, we realize really quickly that it's, it's the Oz situation
00:28:14that you peer behind the curtain and things aren't as they seem, um, that, you know, you,
00:28:18you think that it's like, for instance, just to give a harmless, not harmless, but you have
00:28:25a single mom pop up to a church and you expect a church to take care of her and, and
00:28:29then they
00:28:30don't.
00:28:30And, and, and, and the, the dissonance that happens, it doesn't compute or, um, like you're
00:28:35saying about fighting over terminology and like what actually happened.
00:28:38Like I remember like hearing stories, like some of the most disturbing stuff with, with
00:28:43the Mike Bickle stuff, the conversations that were happening behind the scenes were leaders
00:28:46arguing whether victims were complicit or not.
00:28:49And it's just, that doesn't seem anything like the Christianity that they taught me.
00:28:56And, and that's, what's so hard is because you, Mike Bickle, one of Mike Bickle's core messages
00:29:02outside the fringe stuff was first and second commandment.
00:29:05Love God with all your heart, love your neighbor as yourself.
00:29:08Like that was core to the messaging.
00:29:10And whenever you have that ingrained in you, you have certain expectations of how people
00:29:14will respond.
00:29:15And when that doesn't happen, um, it's, it's traumatizing again, a different type of trauma
00:29:21that happens.
00:29:22It's true.
00:29:23My question is this, who are the shepherds supposed to be shepherding?
00:29:29The sheep, right?
00:29:31To use church terminology.
00:29:33Why are we shepherding wolves?
00:29:35Why are we releasing wolves back into the pens to pray again?
00:29:40Like my mind can't even comprehend this.
00:29:42I want to share a quick story because I think it's helpful.
00:29:46And I have dozens of these in my own life.
00:29:48And again, I'm not sharing these things because I'm a victim.
00:29:51I'm a survivor.
00:29:53I've got a lot of beautiful things that I could talk about, but right now I'm trying to blow
00:29:56the whistle on indoctrination.
00:29:57Okay.
00:29:58So when I was 19 years old, I did a program at Metro again, Mike Bickle's original church
00:30:05before IHOP.
00:30:06I had a lot of different names, but anyway, so I did this program and my best friend lived
00:30:12with a family.
00:30:15And I had met this man, excuse me.
00:30:19I had met this man at the cookout, like the welcome cookout.
00:30:23And he was introduced as the guy.
00:30:24It was his idea to bring this whole program to the church.
00:30:26So my best friend or whatever ends up living with them.
00:30:31So I walk into their house and I feel comfortable sharing this name because I've got dozens
00:30:36and dozens of people who have this exact same story.
00:30:40And Brantley knows where this is going, but my friend goes downstairs to her bedroom to
00:30:45grab something.
00:30:46And I'm alone in their living room, looking out the front window of this duplex.
00:30:49And Bob Hartley comes behind me, grabs me, wipes my legs out from underneath, pins me
00:30:57to the ground in a wrestling move with his whole body on top of mine.
00:31:01Now, inappropriate in any setting, but because of my childhood abuse, my particular response
00:31:09in that moment, or maybe I would have responded even if I didn't have childhood abuse, was
00:31:14to absolutely freeze.
00:31:16And he started whispering like, do you love Jesus?
00:31:19Do you love Jesus?
00:31:19And I couldn't answer because I couldn't talk.
00:31:22I was like, first of all, it hurt.
00:31:24And then it was weird.
00:31:26And finally, I squeaked out yes.
00:31:28And that was when he let me up.
00:31:30And so, by the way, there are dozens of women my age and younger, so that share this story.
00:31:37And it's my understanding that he did this to a lot of people and that there was actually
00:31:42a suit because somebody got injured.
00:31:46So I went to my leaders the next day and shared it.
00:31:50And there was laughter.
00:31:52And they're like, yeah, that's just him.
00:31:55And then they went into the story about it was like an Israeli, like, diplomat or like
00:31:59governmental leader.
00:32:00Interesting, right?
00:32:01That they were at the church.
00:32:02But and that he had done that to him.
00:32:05And this guy was really mad.
00:32:06And like, everybody's laughing in my little group.
00:32:08And how I registered that is there's something wrong with me that I had a problem with that
00:32:16happening.
00:32:17And so every time I kind of heard him talk, like I could never follow what he was saying.
00:32:22It was like 15 different directions and nothing ever like landed.
00:32:25And and I was always like, oh, there's something wrong with me that I can't receive from him or
00:32:30hear from him.
00:32:31I think my abuse has tainted me towards this man.
00:32:37And, you know, because someone didn't take it seriously.
00:32:41So I realized it was wrong later.
00:32:44But I was talking to a couple of actual advocates from the ACNA to movement.
00:32:49And I shared that story.
00:32:51And she said, honey, you know, that's assault, right?
00:32:53And I was like, oh, yeah, I guess that would be the word that would be the definition of
00:33:02what happened.
00:33:03And this was like last year.
00:33:04So it takes time for your brain to catch up with these things.
00:33:09And it's kind of like no one thinks it's a big deal.
00:33:12So you think there's something wrong with you that you think it's a big deal.
00:33:16That's exactly how it happens.
00:33:17It's in my situation, which I'm careful about how much I share about it or whatever that
00:33:23happened to me, which was pre-IHOP, all that stuff.
00:33:27The guy who harmed me, it was known that he would run around and do things like he was
00:33:31around the youth group all the time.
00:33:32He would slap boys on the butt.
00:33:34He would do like all these different, he would wrestle people, like you're saying.
00:33:38He would do all these different things.
00:33:40He got caught in precarious situations.
00:33:41He had numerous people speak up and say that he had tried to do things to them and such.
00:33:49And what gets played off is, no, that's just how he is.
00:33:52That's just him.
00:33:54And that's something that happens all the time.
00:33:57And I don't know what it is that causes people to refuse to see that because in this situation,
00:34:05he wasn't a particular valuable person either.
00:34:09So I think it's reputation and people's perspective of the organization at that point.
00:34:15But, yeah, it's in the advocate you mentioned.
00:34:19I think I know who you're talking about, and I love her to death because she does shoot straight
00:34:22like that.
00:34:25You know, a lot of people don't think about this, but assault comes in many different forms.
00:34:30What you're describing is exactly assault, and that's like the textbook definition of it.
00:34:34But what about the psychological assaults?
00:34:38Take the stage acts that do, like Benny Hinn, the swinging, the coats, and the people fall over.
00:34:44Psychologically, what's happening is the same exact thing that happened to you.
00:34:48You were pinned.
00:34:49You couldn't move.
00:34:49The anxiety kicked in.
00:34:51Man, the anxiety was actually so high, you were assaulted in two ways.
00:34:54Number one, the anxiety.
00:34:55Number two, the physical assault.
00:34:57Well, in the movement where they're having people fall down in the spirit and all of this
00:35:02stuff, it's not just that the spirit hit them and they fell.
00:35:06Listen to the words of the speaker before this happens.
00:35:09He's bringing them up to a state of anxiety, and then, boo, I scared you, and you fall over.
00:35:15That's not the spirit of God.
00:35:16The spirit of God doesn't assault you.
00:35:18But mentally, they're going through that assault in their head.
00:35:21I was just talking to my wife about this same thing this past week.
00:35:24She was talking about she went to, I think it was a Todd Bentley meeting or something
00:35:27like that.
00:35:28In her childhood, her parents would go up to Canada to go to Todd Bentley meetings and stuff.
00:35:32And she was recounting the similar situation that she was in.
00:35:36She was like, I remember standing up there in the line, and there was multiple lines in
00:35:40the front of the church, and I was in the second line.
00:35:42And she said they were coming down the line, and everybody was falling.
00:35:45And she's like, I don't feel anything.
00:35:48I don't know what to do.
00:35:48She goes, but I just fell because I didn't want to be the one that didn't fall.
00:35:52And I think that's part of that control aspect that we feel.
00:35:56You see everybody else doing it.
00:35:57You got to do it, and you just conform.
00:36:00Humans are weird.
00:36:01My husband was raised in a Word of Faith church, and every Sunday, they would want everybody
00:36:06to go up and have some kind of reaction.
00:36:07And he would get slain in the Spirit on purpose, so they'd cover him with a blanket, and he
00:36:11could sleep.
00:36:13So I got some perks to the culture, you know, too.
00:36:17He probably missed a lot of the gobbledygook, you know.
00:36:20I have friends who were Pentecostal runners, and that's another funny story for another day.
00:36:25But talk to one of these people, if you know them, and find out, have they ever sprained
00:36:30their ankle as they're running?
00:36:32And then ask the question, if you're running in the Spirit, will God sprain your ankle?
00:36:36That's one of the questions that you just simply can't answer.
00:36:40Well, we could do an entire podcast on injuries I've seen from prophetic actions flying through
00:36:46the air, poles, flags.
00:36:48I mean, we could really go there, John.
00:36:51You know, I wanted to touch base really quickly before we turn into something else we were going
00:36:56to talk about today.
00:36:57But, you know, I had mentioned this thing of this indoctrination of digging for the gold,
00:37:01and I had a couple people upset with me.
00:37:04Okay, but in a totally neutral environment or a good environment, that would be an okay statement
00:37:13on the outside.
00:37:14But I kind of have an example already of something that happened.
00:37:18So there's this book, Unpunishable, and someone went through and pointed out some things that
00:37:24just are not true.
00:37:26And they're very serious things that aren't true because they make a survivor seem complicit,
00:37:31all these different types of things, and stating, you know, that the church didn't know that this
00:37:36person had, you know, allegedly done predatory things in the past.
00:37:40And so this person comes at me about this book, stating that we should mine for the gold in the
00:37:47book.
00:37:47And I was like, there you have it, right?
00:37:50Like textbook response to it.
00:37:53Well, that book was good for me.
00:37:54So my response is, okay, so it's okay that a survivor was re-victimized, that there's blatant
00:38:01lies in there, as long as the book was good for you.
00:38:04Like, I'll tell you, there's some other places to dig for gold.
00:38:07For instance, the Bible would be a really great place to dig for some gold, etc., right?
00:38:12So.
00:38:13Well, and the sad truth, there's a lot of gold diggers in the movement.
00:38:19We were going to talk a little bit about the, some of the, I would almost call it like a
00:38:26symbiotic or like a parasite type relationship between a, let's say, an unhealthy leader
00:38:35or an abusive leader and, you know, a fake prophet or a, you know, abusive prophet.
00:38:41And I just, this disclaimer, are there good people?
00:38:44Are there good leaders?
00:38:44Of course there is.
00:38:47But I made a little list here, and these are some of the things that I've seen.
00:38:50I'm not going to name names, but so abusive leaders, well, they all, let's just lay the
00:38:58foundation here.
00:38:59They often have mutual collateral or blackmail on one another.
00:39:03Can we all agree on that one?
00:39:06So the abusive leader, here's their role.
00:39:09They tell stories to build up the mythos, the legends, the credibility, the caste system.
00:39:16They vouch for them.
00:39:18They talk about their friendships.
00:39:20They extend honor.
00:39:21So they prepare a place that everybody's at peak believability in that moment.
00:39:28They give them the stage, and they introduce them to other people that give them the stage.
00:39:35And they pay them honorariums.
00:39:37So there's a financial thing there.
00:39:41They draw on the crowds for them.
00:39:43And, you know, I kind of call that type of ministry from the front dinner and a show.
00:39:46Yeah, I think like the, because I have been a part of it, and that's hard to admit, like
00:39:53whenever you're complicit in some of these things, that there's like this deceptive camaraderie
00:39:57that happens of like, I remember it from my youth group days, like whenever I was doing
00:40:02worship leading and stuff, and with our youth, like it was, it was like, oh, you messed up,
00:40:06you sinned, you did this bad thing.
00:40:08Me too.
00:40:09I've sinned, I've done this bad thing too.
00:40:11And it becomes like this like uniting thing, but it ends up becoming a covering for one
00:40:16another.
00:40:16And I think that people get sucked into that so deceptively, thinking that it's like Christian
00:40:21brotherhood, because I think there is a truth to love covering sin.
00:40:25Like I think there is an element of that, but not whenever it is egregious harm like that.
00:40:31That's, you know, but what you're saying is true.
00:40:34Yeah, I often get accused of not allowing the work of Christ to cover up.
00:40:41But like you said, it isn't just simply that.
00:40:44There are people that I know of who are good people who are actually in leadership who had
00:40:48really sketchy pasts.
00:40:49There's a time in which people can learn and grow.
00:40:52The problem is, if they retained that sketchy past and they're still doing it, and then
00:40:58the leaders are not letting people know and not warning people, hey, you're at risk here.
00:41:03For me, that's a huge problem.
00:41:05It has nothing to do with the covering of sin.
00:41:07Yeah, you know, there isn't just data mining going on.
00:41:11There's actually information being fed to these fake prophets as well.
00:41:16And so here's how it can work.
00:41:18There's a public usage of the prophet, and there's kind of a private usage of the quote-unquote
00:41:26prophet as well.
00:41:27So they can give words to certain people.
00:41:32I see them give words to churches.
00:41:34Like they can, oh my gosh, I had no idea that the pastor had this whole vision.
00:41:40Look at me confirming the vision.
00:41:44Money coming in.
00:41:45And so, you know, I was at, I hate this, I was at School of the Prophets in 2020, and
00:41:51Stacey Campbell comes out on the stage, and she shakes her head and yells for a long time.
00:41:55And she's like, money, money, money, finances.
00:41:58You know, like this big old multi-million dollar building that they're involved in building.
00:42:07Like God's bringing revival, and it's fast.
00:42:10It's fast.
00:42:10Like the money has to come faster now.
00:42:12And I remember feeling so weird about that, and then I gave like 40 bucks.
00:42:17So anyway, so there's a lot of kind of that that goes on behind the scenes as well.
00:42:25But privately, people can be excommunicated and ostracized, shunned by the prophet.
00:42:34People can, I've seen people break up.
00:42:37They don't want two people together.
00:42:39They'll break them up.
00:42:40And sadly, I've seen marriages happen behind the scenes where this leader had a prophet
00:42:48that he brought in on a phone call to this woman and basically was like, I know that
00:42:55there's abuse while you're dating, but as soon as you get married, thus says the Lord,
00:42:59it's going to go away.
00:43:01And this pastor wanted his favorite little guy to marry this girl.
00:43:08And, you know, lo and behold, it didn't work out very well.
00:43:11So there's a lot of things behind the scenes.
00:43:13The other thing I've seen is that they will go to other churches and pick off the top leaders.
00:43:19They'll recruit to kind of come join, you know, God's saying you need to come and join this staff.
00:43:25So there's a lot of kind of benefits, if you will, of having this kind of symbiotic relationship.
00:43:33How many times have you heard a story of like, or you were a part like in a church congregation,
00:43:38and you remember one of these prophetic type figures, almost like running someone off from the church or labeling someone
00:43:47as trouble or a problem or whatever it might be.
00:43:50They're having things.
00:43:51And then all of a sudden this person disappears.
00:43:53And then here we are on the side of life that we're all on now.
00:43:57And one of those people come out of the woodwork and you come to find out like what happened was
00:44:00that they were just trying to keep them quiet.
00:44:02And they made everybody else think that they were the bad person when really it was the leadership, you know,
00:44:07doing the bad things.
00:44:09The thing that made me laugh, and I was thinking about it earlier when we were talking about it, because
00:44:12I hadn't seen it in forever.
00:44:14I was watching one of the Bethel services and saw their offering declaration that they do.
00:44:20And of how that there's going to be, you know, checks in the mail and this and that.
00:44:25And they're declaring all these things.
00:44:26And I'm just like, it's so funny, like how much the miraculous is leaned upon that it's used as a
00:44:32grift is what it is.
00:44:33I'm like, the Bible doesn't teach us give all your money to the church and then God's going to provide
00:44:38for you.
00:44:39The Bible, what happened in the book of Acts was we all brought our money together and helped each other
00:44:43pay our bills.
00:44:44Like, that was more of what happened versus we give the preacher millions of dollars and then hope God returns
00:44:50it tenfold to us.
00:44:51Like, that's not how this works.
00:44:53The funny part is, while I was in Branimism, we were in the precursors to everything you're describing.
00:44:57We viewed all of the rest of the guys as the false anointed ones at the end time.
00:45:03And specifically, we would say this because, I mean, look at their prophecies.
00:45:07Prophecies, half of their prophecies are about money or the means to get the money.
00:45:12And that's just not the way God works.
00:45:15Yeah.
00:45:16So, back to my list here.
00:45:17So, you know, they owe each other favors, right?
00:45:21They'll endorse one another's books.
00:45:23There's a lot of, you know, back scratching that happens in these types of situations.
00:45:28And then the oldie but a goodie is helping them be restored if their messes do get found out.
00:45:36So, the prophet, you know, of course, they get the stage and they get the celebrity.
00:45:41They often will, you know, go along with stories that aren't true, creating mythos, maybe creating prophetic history and a
00:45:52validity to the mission of the church.
00:45:54We've already kind of talked about that.
00:45:56But these people will come.
00:45:59They'll be a part of these stories.
00:46:00And then even sometimes the prophet will be pushed aside and erased.
00:46:04But the mythos remains of this mandate of the Lord to give yourself to something.
00:46:10Prophets, of course, cover up leaders' messes, too.
00:46:14Sadly, I've actually seen leaders find victims for folks.
00:46:25This is a hard one.
00:46:29There's a leader who knew of, we'll call it, knew of the appetite of a certain prophet.
00:46:36And he would find young men of a certain vulnerability who were open with struggles and have the word of
00:46:47the Lord for these men, young men,
00:46:51that they were supposed to serve the prophet for the rest of their life, like this lifelong covenant role.
00:46:59And literally was hand-picking and hand-feeding to this prophet victims.
00:47:09And then favors are owed for that.
00:47:12So you just see it go around and around and around again.
00:47:15And that's one, well, there's multiple stories within that story, but that's one relationship that I saw.
00:47:21And then you see them celebrated at funerals and things in ways that, I mean, the crowd's all there.
00:47:34You can watch the video, but they call it messes, they call it vulnerabilities, they call it struggles.
00:47:41And I'm like, there were, at times, little tiny boys involved in this story.
00:47:48And it's been minimized and covered up.
00:47:51And when people wanted to disclose things later and books or those types of things to have more of the
00:47:57real story come out,
00:47:59that leader would even minimize what was written about them.
00:48:04And so, you know, you've seen it over and over again, John 2, right?
00:48:08Where God's generals, their stories have been whitewashed.
00:48:11All the criminal activity and the grifting is erased.
00:48:15But we remember mythos.
00:48:18And then we, in my generation, spend all this time fasting, praying, working to,
00:48:24I want to be, you know, Smith Wigglesworth or John G. Lake or whatever.
00:48:29And you never quite arrive.
00:48:32That's because they didn't quite arrive either.
00:48:35Yeah.
00:48:36You made me, it's semi-unrelated, but I think worth saying.
00:48:41When you're talking about them bringing victims to the profit, it's something I've been thinking about that happened in the
00:48:48IHOPKC context.
00:48:49I think it may be helpful to people to hear if they're able to contextualize it to the environments that
00:48:53they're in.
00:48:54And that one of the things that became apparent to me, that just how ridiculous it was, is that every
00:49:03IHOPU student, and I believe the interns had to too, and I think it was very much encouraged for the
00:49:07staff.
00:49:08There's a software called Covenant Eyes.
00:49:10I don't know if you guys heard of it before.
00:49:12But what it does is pretty much sends your web history to your accountability partner.
00:49:17And the way that they had it structured was that we had to send it to, like, our small group
00:49:21leaders.
00:49:22And then our small group leaders were sending to this person.
00:49:24And the reason I say that, because it seems innocent on surface level.
00:49:29But then once you see how that information is taken and say that there was something on your search history
00:49:34that shouldn't have been there,
00:49:35and that gets weaponized against you.
00:49:38And the other area that I saw it in happened frequently was in our inner healing type ministries that were
00:49:45at IHOP,
00:49:46which were pure heart, living waters, those ministries to where people who had suffered significant harm
00:49:53or maybe there were non-heteronormative kind of expressions of living that was going on that was not accepted in
00:50:04those cultures.
00:50:06And then that was exploited because those leaders now knew who struggled with what,
00:50:13who was predisposed to certain things, who knew the dark secrets.
00:50:16And it just wasn't leaders, but they would use that to keep people in loyal service to them, in a
00:50:21sense.
00:50:22There were so many people that I know that stuck around IHOP a long time.
00:50:25And it was because of their proximity to these certain leaders and the struggles that they had.
00:50:30And they became convinced that they couldn't do things without them,
00:50:33that they couldn't exist outside of it because they were so broken or whatever it might have been.
00:50:38But I hope that that helps people be able to connect, contextualize to their own environments to think,
00:50:45okay, what kind of things are people finding out about people?
00:50:49Is that able to be used?
00:50:50Have people used that against me?
00:50:51Because I think it's a very common tactic that I've seen multiple ministries that I've been a part of.
00:50:56It puts you into a spot where you're vulnerable, which, you know, if you read the Bible,
00:51:01it's not actually a bad thing to confess your sins one to another.
00:51:05That part is good.
00:51:06It's how far do you go with this?
00:51:08So I know people who had good intent.
00:51:13They had no idea that anything that they said could be used against them from either side.
00:51:19The one who's receiving the information, the one who's, you know, in sin and giving the information.
00:51:24It started out as a good thing.
00:51:27But the person who received the information, something happened and the person began to change.
00:51:33Mentally, something was going on, psychological issues or whatever.
00:51:37And that person developed a, I don't know what the word is.
00:51:43They developed this mentality that they could use information against the person.
00:51:49And so suddenly there's a rift.
00:51:51Something happens.
00:51:51They start fighting each other.
00:51:53Well, now the guy starts blasting all the private secret information.
00:51:56And what began as simply confessing sins one to another, now it's weaponizing those sins against the people.
00:52:02And it doesn't even have to be with leadership who have bad intentions.
00:52:08The leadership who has bad and who has good intentions can sometimes turn out bad.
00:52:13So this should never be a thing that's in the church, but it is.
00:52:16Two things to add to that.
00:52:18One, it's not only your story used against you, but people of a predatory nature will see vulnerabilities in young
00:52:27men and young women.
00:52:28And I'm going to minister to you.
00:52:31I'm going to heal you and then end up grooming them and abusing them.
00:52:35But I've also seen the opposite of that, where somebody gets found out that they've got unsavory things that they're
00:52:41up to or dishonest things.
00:52:43And I've seen those people promoted according to confessing their sins and groomed up to be henchmen or, you know,
00:52:51those types of things.
00:52:52Because, oh, look, you know, you have a aptitude for such and such.
00:52:57You're a perfect disciple to come up and come in.
00:53:00You know, in every structure where there's hierarchy and abuse, there's going to be really genuine, sincere people.
00:53:08They love a good pastoral heart, right?
00:53:10Like, they can always point to it.
00:53:12Look, there's some good going on here.
00:53:15You know, apostles and prophets tend to not want to care for hearts and pastor people.
00:53:20As a broad breaststroke, I know that's not entirely true everywhere.
00:53:23But there's these good guys in the system, right, that will pastor.
00:53:27But then there's also enablers and other types of unhealthy roles.
00:53:32And sometimes they are chosen because they find out about their sin.
00:53:38So I've been accused of not sharing enough scripture when I talk.
00:53:45So one thing I do want to say, and I'm going to put these in the comments, actually, after once
00:53:52this video goes up.
00:53:53But a couple in defense of whistleblowing and speaking out.
00:53:57So 1 Timothy 5.20, those who are sinning, rebuke in the presence of all that the rest also may
00:54:04fear.
00:54:05Amen.
00:54:06Galatians 2.11-14 is an example of Paul publicly confronting Peter because Peter's behavior was harmful and leading other
00:54:14people astray, causing harm.
00:54:17James 3.1, not many of you should become teachers because you know that those who teach will be judged
00:54:24more strictly.
00:54:26Interesting, not less.
00:54:28Ephesians 5.11, have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
00:54:36Luke 12.2-3, there is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed or hidden that may not be made
00:54:42known.
00:54:44Matthew 18.6, if anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for them to
00:54:48have a large millstone hung around their neck.
00:54:52And maybe next time we'll get together, I'll read some more.
00:54:54But I found this really interesting.
00:54:58Reading Revelations, you'll love this, Brantley.
00:55:01That's a favorite book for a lot of us who have been abused by that book.
00:55:04But Revelation 2, one of the things said to the church of Ephesus is, you have tested those who claim
00:55:11to be apostles, and they are not.
00:55:15And they're commended for that.
00:55:16This is the word of God for the people of God.
00:55:18Thanks be to God.
00:55:20That's what I have to say to that.
00:55:22I wasn't actually teaching there.
00:55:24I know I'm a woman, but I was just sharing a testimony.
00:55:27I receive your covering.
00:55:28It's okay.
00:55:30Edit, John, edit!
00:55:33You know, one of the problems with this movement is they have taken the names of the offices, and they've
00:55:39put them in such a category that the people in them aren't human.
00:55:44I gave the example of Solomon.
00:55:45So Solomon was anointed by God, brought idolatry into Israel.
00:55:49This is a terrible, terrible thing.
00:55:53What if, in the New Testament, what if Paul, same thing happened, would the people respect Paul in the same
00:56:01way?
00:56:01And Paul, there's nothing in the New Testament that says Paul did anything bad.
00:56:04I'm not trying to speak heretically.
00:56:07The problem is the movement has shifted so far from the truth that if there was an example where Paul
00:56:15brought people into idolatry or something worse, some of the sins that David had, they would actually defend Paul because
00:56:22he's anointed.
00:56:23Yet Solomon brought idolatry into the camps of Israel.
00:56:27This is horrific.
00:56:28This is the anti-God, right?
00:56:30This is not what you're supposed to be uplifting.
00:56:34But they have taken it to the point where the office becomes the God.
00:56:38The apostle becomes the God.
00:56:40The prophet becomes the God.
00:56:41And in doing so, what you're doing is you're shifting the Christian religion not even away from God but to
00:56:48other gods, and the gods are human before them.
00:56:51That is why there's such a widespread hero worship in the movement.
00:56:56Yeah, it makes things, on the national scale, make a whole lot more sense.
00:56:59If you have ears to hear, let you hear.
00:57:02Yeah.
00:57:03I think that, you know, we can talk about this another day, too, but there's a lot of examples in
00:57:08the Bible where, in the epistles, by name, people teaching heresies are called out.
00:57:16And I think that not only does it set a precedent, but, you know, I guess Paul was a heresy
00:57:21hunter, you know, is what he would be called today.
00:57:24Why is that a big deal?
00:57:26We're not talking about, I think that this Greek word means phileo and you think it means agape.
00:57:32Like, we're talking about harmful teachings that are hurting people.
00:57:38And so, they're named by name because the people need to be protected.
00:57:43And so, I was thinking about this the other day, you know, everybody's a heresy hunter that's pointing out harmful
00:57:49teachings.
00:57:50Jesus goes into the temple showing anger of all things.
00:57:53Oh, my.
00:57:54And he flips tables.
00:57:56And I honestly think that they would be like, he's got a better spirit.
00:58:02You know, he's just offended.
00:58:03You know, he's angry.
00:58:06And I really do wonder if today those types of things would happen if he was calling things out.
00:58:14How would he be labeled?
00:58:16I think that he would probably be right next to Don Lemon right now.
00:58:20I think it's probably where Jesus would have been.
00:58:24Protecting.
00:58:24I don't think First Amendment.
00:58:26I think Jesus would be breaking some First Amendment protections if he goes into a church, starts flipping tables.
00:58:30I think people would have things to say about that.
00:58:32I do.
00:58:35And like I say, the way that the movement has shifted, it's not Christianity.
00:58:40If they were to – they could preach sermons on how there are heresy hunters in the Bible.
00:58:45And, I mean, if you read the Old Testament, some of them got stoned for doing some of the same
00:58:49things that are happening in the churches today.
00:58:51And I can picture Paul, if he were to come and see this mass, he would say, what's wrong with
00:58:55you people?
00:58:56But that's not the religion that they're teaching.
00:58:58But, anyway, this has been crazy fun.
00:59:01Thank you so much for doing this.
00:59:02Yeah, it's been great to be here.
00:59:04Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
00:59:07You can find us at william-branham.org.
00:59:10For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
00:59:15the NAR.
00:59:16Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
00:59:46Available on Amazon, Kindle.
01:00:16Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:18Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:22Available on Amazon, Kindle, and audible.
01:00:23Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:00:26You
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