- 51 minutes ago
John Collins sits down with John Garvey to trace how revival culture, charismatic theology, and imported American movements reshaped British Christianity. Together they examine the early charismatic movement in the UK, its theological weaknesses, and the subtle but lasting influence of Latter Rain ideas, prophetic culture, and worship-driven emotionalism.
The conversation explores how movements like Toronto and Bethel affected British churches, why prophecy and miracle culture went largely untested, and how music became a tool for spiritual manipulation rather than discipleship. This episode challenges popular revival narratives and asks whether repentance, doctrine, and the gospel were replaced by experience, spectacle, and power.
Jon's Website: http://www.godsgoodearth.org/
00:00 Introduction
00:31 The Charismatic Movement In Britain
07:08 The “Third Wave” And Erased History
10:33 Weak Doctrine Of The Holy Spirit
12:34 Azusa Street And Gospel Emphasis
16:38 Manufactured Revival And Emotionalism
20:52 Music, Manipulation, And Worship Culture
27:26 The Second Blessing And Holiness Theology
37:55 The Prophetic Movement And Authority Claims
42:49 Bethel, Fallout, And Modern Charismatic Crisis
47:28 Nationalism, Revival, And Cultural Upheaval
55:35 Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
The conversation explores how movements like Toronto and Bethel affected British churches, why prophecy and miracle culture went largely untested, and how music became a tool for spiritual manipulation rather than discipleship. This episode challenges popular revival narratives and asks whether repentance, doctrine, and the gospel were replaced by experience, spectacle, and power.
Jon's Website: http://www.godsgoodearth.org/
00:00 Introduction
00:31 The Charismatic Movement In Britain
07:08 The “Third Wave” And Erased History
10:33 Weak Doctrine Of The Holy Spirit
12:34 Azusa Street And Gospel Emphasis
16:38 Manufactured Revival And Emotionalism
20:52 Music, Manipulation, And Worship Culture
27:26 The Second Blessing And Holiness Theology
37:55 The Prophetic Movement And Authority Claims
42:49 Bethel, Fallout, And Modern Charismatic Crisis
47:28 Nationalism, Revival, And Cultural Upheaval
55:35 Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, John Garvey, doctor, musician, more, and links to the charismatic movement
00:49for years.
00:50John, it's such an extraordinary introduction.
00:53I'm not sure how to introduce you into this.
00:55But last time when you were on the podcast, I got so much good feedback and people wanting to learn
01:02more because we in the States, we look at this NAR thing, you know, Apostolic Reformation, and we see the
01:09mess that was created here.
01:11But not many people realize that that same mess was created in different ways in other places and really has
01:19negatively impacted the Christianity in general in different places.
01:23But I had so many people that wanted to hear more, and fortunately, you were willing to do so.
01:29Maybe if you could just remind everybody a little bit about yourself, and let's talk about the mess that was
01:35created.
01:36Well, I was a general medical practitioner for many years in the east of England, and I became a Christian
01:42when I was a teenager.
01:44And fairly early on, at university, came in contact for the first time with the charismatic movement.
01:50And because I was doing Christian music, there was a very strong charismatic influence, and I got sort of partly
01:58roped in.
01:59And I didn't realize quite how close to many things I was, because looking at the history since we did
02:08our last podcast, it appears that the thing that really pushed the charismatic movement into the mainstream was a festival
02:18of the Holy Spirit at Guildford Cathedral, which I was actually at back in 1971.
02:25That was a sort of weird thing in some ways.
02:30The most strange bit was the singing in the spirit, which was basically, as a musician, I was thinking, people
02:36are just singing a chord.
02:37So I perhaps wasn't impressed with that.
02:40But the most impressive thing was a chap standing in front of me who looked like a pastry cook and
02:47could not sing.
02:48But he was so enthusiastic, I thought, that's where the Holy Spirit is today amongst this person.
02:54So that's my abiding memory of that seminal event in the charismatic movement.
03:01But after the last podcast, some of the feedback comments were saying that I'd missed out various things.
03:09And it was true, partly because of time, but mainly because I only saw certain things.
03:14And in particular, people said that there were other streams going into the early charismatic, not only the main line
03:25denominations, the Anglicans and so on.
03:28But back in the 60s, from the Brethren movement, came Arthur Wallace, who was another sort of big mover and
03:38shaker and various other people.
03:40But as I've looked at that history, with which I was not involved so much, the thing that I've been
03:46seeing is that all of it still goes back to the same links that you have been describing for so
03:53long.
03:53Very early in the history of the Fountain Trust, which was the kind of umbrella group that began putting these
04:01things together with Michael Harper and so on.
04:06Ern Baxter was advising and various other people like that.
04:11So there were people coming, picking up Latarane doctrines.
04:16And that led actually to some divisions, I'm told.
04:19This is just research has shown this rather than anything I was involved in.
04:23I'm blissfully unaware of any of this.
04:26But there were divisions about restorationism.
04:30There were resentments that these people from Anglican denominations and so on were, seemed to be taking the lead.
04:38So there was always that kind of division.
04:40And I understand that that tended to kind of weaken the whole business until we began to get to what
04:48now I think is called the third wave with John Wimber
04:52and the Toronto blessing and the Toronto blessing and those things.
04:54And that has been what has caused damage, I think.
05:00After the podcast, a guy got in touch with me, found my number through Clifford Hill, who I mentioned last
05:08time.
05:09And he was a recovering charismatic.
05:14But we had a very good conversation and shared a lot of the same experience.
05:20But he was telling me that he had a daughter, has a daughter, who is a worship leader, trained worship
05:25leader,
05:25and just mentioned in passing that she'd been out and spent some time at Bethel Redding.
05:32And that, I think, encapsulates the British problem that this quite quiet charismatic movement over here,
05:41where we don't have too many Bill Johnson figures, there's always that attraction over the Atlantic.
05:48That's where the spirit's really moving.
05:50And I think it's because people are sort of disappointed that they're expecting lots and lots of miracles
05:55and didn't seem to be getting them and prophecies about this and that.
05:59And so you find people kind of, people went over to the Toronto blessing.
06:03I've heard from more than two or three people who've been over to Bethel.
06:07This girl was unfortunately sort of disillusioned by the whole thing, went to Nashville
06:12and was even more disillusioned by the music, the Christian music scene there.
06:16So it's that kind of transatlantic connection that seems to make a big difference.
06:23And I think it's where our British people get the fix, or they think they're going to get the fix
06:29anyway.
06:29You know, it's kind of funny because I get all kinds of feedback,
06:32and I don't really discount anything that's sent to me, no matter who it is.
06:37I want to know more, and I want to know everybody's own perspective as they look into this weird box.
06:43And it's funny because I have people who have escaped the movement who were in leadership positions
06:48who were in the know, and yet at the same time they weren't in the know.
06:53So their perspective, they may have things that they realize that maybe we got a few things wrong,
06:59but at the same time they got things wrong because they didn't fully understand it.
07:03And it comes down to this point.
07:05You mentioned that this was the third wave.
07:08I have had people who were in the movement and leadership say this.
07:12This was the third wave of Pentecostalism,
07:15not knowing that there was a whole wave that has been erased by history.
07:19You know, the third wave, I don't know that you can really call it like this
07:23because there were multiple waves along the way.
07:27And latter rain, so many people just tried to disconnect that.
07:30They tried to say, well, no, that wasn't a real wave.
07:33We have the real thing, right?
07:35So there are so many different perspectives.
07:38But whenever you are in a movement that likes to cover up its history,
07:43you miss a lot of things because you take it for granted that somebody telling you something
07:48is being honest about what it is that they're talking about.
07:52However, they may not even have all the details.
07:56Another example which I'll throw out, hopefully we're going to get into this soon,
08:00but I have had people say that Youth with a Mission, YWAM, is in no way, shape, or form connected
08:07to Branhamism.
08:08It's a totally isolated thing, that there are no theological connections, etc.
08:15And yet at the same time, I found documents where Ern Baxter, who I think you mentioned,
08:21part of the shepherding movement, who was William Branham's partner in the revivals,
08:25and even campaign manager for a few years, he was going to YWAM bases
08:31and essentially teaching them how to do authoritarian control, if you understand how his doctrine worked.
08:37So there are so many connections, and even the leadership who have escaped Youth with a Mission,
08:43who have reached out to me, even they are fully unaware of that connection.
08:47So it gets to be this weird thing where you have this box that everybody's looking into it in a
08:53single direction,
08:54and they have blinders on their side because they can only see what they've been told.
08:58The connections are there, and I think they're important.
09:02And, as again, you've documented, going right back to the beginning of Pentecostalism,
09:07you've got these shady characters, John Alexander, Dowie, and so on.
09:14And to me, I think, as a Bible teacher, the theology is the most important thing,
09:20but there are other factors, sociological factors and personality factors that are underestimated, I'm sure.
09:28But thinking of the theology, you've documented very well the dangers of, well, so many different things,
09:38the healings that you're persuaded have happened even when they haven't,
09:42the prophecies that exploit people and all those sort of things.
09:46In fact, I was hearing just on Sunday about a trail of people from a fairly nearby Latverian-type or
09:57NAR-type church
09:59who've fallen off not only that church and not only Christianity, but belief in God altogether.
10:08And it's so dangerous to see that happening.
10:12But it's not just those dangers.
10:14I think one of the things that has struck me is that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit,
10:23which is so prominent, is actually a really weak doctrine of the Holy Spirit.
10:30If you look at some reading, there's a book which I read many years ago by probably the greatest British
10:38theologian.
10:42650 pages on the Holy Spirit, and it hardly mentions charismatic gifts.
10:47John Owen, to the listeners who aren't watching the video.
10:50Yeah, the Holy Spirit, the treatise on the Holy Spirit, 1678.
10:53The problem with John Owen is that not only is he writing 16th century English,
10:59but he's one of the most complicated writers, but that book is by Michael Horton, and that's a modern book.
11:11And again, the same thing.
11:13You find that there's just so much that the Holy Spirit does, and miracles are small print, and prophecies are
11:22small print,
11:22created the world, but one of the things that Michael Horton points out, which I think is really important to
11:28the Christian,
11:29is that everything that God does, he does through all members of the Trinity.
11:35So the idea of seeking more of the Holy Spirit, you're missing out on the fact that the Father initiates
11:43everything.
11:44He does it through Christ, and the Spirit is the person who brings it to completion.
11:50So you find that even in the classic passage on spiritual gifts, Paul talks, when he's talking about spiritual gifts,
11:58he talks about there are many charismata, but one Spirit, but then he goes on to say,
12:04and there are many kinds of service, but one Lord, by which he means Jesus, and many kinds of work,
12:10but one God, by which he means the Father.
12:13And he's really saying to the Corinthians, look, stop getting hung up on the Spirit and the gifts.
12:19Think about God. Think about salvation.
12:22And that, I think, is one of the big problems that has come, the lack of preaching of the gospel,
12:28the lack of realization of holiness, which is what the Holy Spirit does, mostly.
12:34Absolutely. I have a podcast, I think it's coming out before this one,
12:37but so many people have asked me just simply, what are my thoughts on the Azusa Street Revival?
12:43Right.
12:44And, you know, out of every history that I have read about it, and there's some good, some bad,
12:50some, the good, bad, and ugly, right? And I've read both sides. I've read those in favor. I've read those
12:55against it.
12:56I don't find too many of these histories talking about how the gospel was preached at the revival.
13:02What you instead find are it was filled with miracles. They spoke in tongues. A new thing was birthed.
13:09Pentecostalism, modern Pentecostalism was birthed. You don't really find that, and the gospel was suddenly spread.
13:14You don't find this. So the focus for me, what I've come to realize is that the movement in general
13:21puts so much emphasis on the things that are supernatural, extraordinary signs, wonders, miracles, etc.,
13:30and the gospel just kind of takes backseat. That's the big thing. They want something that's exciting to the crowd.
13:37That's what it is. And I came across, I'm spoiling it if you have not seen this and you're watching
13:43this podcast,
13:44but I come across some very disturbing articles where there were elderly people who were physically ejected
13:52who came and openly declared, I'm a sinner. I want to learn more. And they were kicking sinners out of
13:58the building.
13:59So it wasn't even a gospel to save the sinners. It was literally, come let us show you how you
14:05can speak in tongues,
14:06and if you disagree with us, we will injure you, and you will get out, you will leave our building
14:12and go to the hospitals.
14:14And it wasn't just one person that I came across like this. There were quite a few. In fact, there
14:18were interesting stories.
14:20And I didn't go to this in the podcast, but there were stabbings. There were, I think I did mention
14:25in the podcast,
14:26there were women who were leaving their husbands and bringing in new men off of the streets.
14:31This was not something that you would, by today's standards or any day's standards, think of this as something where
14:39the gospel is being furthered.
14:41You would think of this as, this is a weird attraction. It's oddly like a carnival.
14:45And their focus is, they're calling it Jesus, but they're making the gospel take back seat to this new thing
14:51that's coming.
14:52Yeah. Well, I mentioned last time we spoke about the influence of John, Evan, and the, sorry, Evan Williams.
15:01What was his name? Evan Roberts. That's what I was trying to think of.
15:04Evan Roberts and the Welsh Revival was in contact with the people who were involved in the Azusa Street Revival
15:10a year later.
15:13And reading reports, reports and accounts of the Welsh Revival, the gospel was certainly preached.
15:20I think Evan Roberts loved the gospel, but there were many times when the emphasis wasn't on that at all.
15:27There was lots of falling about, lots of singing, and the gospel was just missed out.
15:32And local people sometimes complained about that, the local church people.
15:38And that's, that's certainly, that goes back, I think, even to the Great Awakening.
15:42I've been reading, again, wading through another tome, which was Jonathan Edwards' Affections of the Holy Spirit.
15:50No, affection, yes, I think that's what it was.
15:55Evan, he was, of course, the American wing of the Great Awakening, the Great Revivalist.
16:00But he was very, very canny about the emotional excesses.
16:06And essentially, it's a long book and quite repetitive, but he was saying it's certainly the case that when somebody
16:14comes to Christ, all kinds of emotions can happen, very strong emotions.
16:19But equally, strong emotions can happen for completely worldly or even demonic reasons.
16:25And he was pretty convinced that many of the people in the Great Awakening who had had all these manifestations
16:31were never truly saved.
16:33And he was under no illusions about that.
16:36And I think the Great Awakening set a template for revival.
16:42And of course, by the time you get to Charles Finney in America in the 19th century, the second Great
16:48Awakening and so on, you manufacture revival by techniques.
16:54And always the aim is, well, there's no revival.
16:58There's these sort of rules of revival.
17:00First of all, you've got to have intense prayer meetings first.
17:03First, God can't work without these prayer meetings.
17:07Then you get the fact that it's only evident revival if there's some kind of emotional thing.
17:15And that changes from John Wesley through to the Pentecostal movement.
17:22But by emphasising that and looking forward to, you know, the great end times revival of that nature, very often
17:32charismatics miss what's going on on their own doorstep.
17:36There are people coming to Christ for other reasons.
17:39In Britain at the moment, largely from the working class, kind of under the radar.
17:45They're going to ordinary churches.
17:47And sometimes they've been spoken against by church leaders, basically for being working class, you know, and patriotic.
17:55I don't think we have much in the way of dominionism in Britain.
17:59But there is a kind of sense of the country being in a mess and needing Christ to kind of
18:05get it back together again.
18:06Yeah, it's kind of funny because just because of Sherlock Holmes and the thrill of the accent, people view the
18:13people from Great Britain as being just a little bit more intelligent.
18:16And when you say this, I'm thinking, well, they're more intelligent.
18:20They're not going to go there.
18:21They're not going to believe this nonsense like we do in the States, which I'm a big fan of Sherlock
18:26Holmes, by the way.
18:27It's one of those things.
18:29So when I read this, and honestly, the reason I'm mentioning this, and I'm kind of being a little bit
18:35open here, the reason I mention this is because when I heard that John Wimber went there and that it
18:41was adopted in a different way, my mind actually went there.
18:44I was thinking just the culture of how the British think about everything.
18:52You know, there's critical analysis and everything.
18:54When you talk to somebody, you can tell that they are critically thinking about what's being said.
19:00How can you spread this nonsense into Great Britain and people even adopt it?
19:05But then after I went that direction, I qualified that thought with, well, when you're in religion, and especially this
19:12type of religion, it trains you over time to suppress your critical thinking while you're in the assembly.
19:18So now you've got both sides fighting with each other.
19:21We also have a state education system.
19:23So, you know, I think critical thinking has kind of somewhat gone out the window.
19:28And there was always an attraction for the supernatural.
19:31If you believe, I don't know if Britons are more gullible, but you hear a story of something happening far
19:39off, and you don't tend to think this guy's probably a charlatan.
19:42At least many people don't.
19:44And in fact, not in connection particularly with the charismatic movement, but I can remember being in churches where someone
19:50has preached the most errant nonsense that has no connection with the Bible text that they've been giving.
19:58And afterwards, people have come and said, wasn't he wonderful?
20:02And it's the charisma in the general sense that still we're no more immune than anyone else.
20:08But I think more conservative, I mean, you know, we're supposed to be buttoned up, which means I think there's
20:14a bit less willingness to throw ourselves overboard into emotional excess.
20:20But it hasn't saved us from the music of Bethel taking over from the whole theology of everyone can do
20:30miracles, everyone can hear from God,
20:34which must have come through Wimber and through Bethel, because I don't think it was there more than 40 years
20:42ago in the history of Christianity.
20:45You know, even the Montanists in the second century, they were the special people who did it.
20:50You know, it wasn't everyone in the church.
20:52Yeah, absolutely.
20:53And I've had the conversation with a couple of people now, but the average person just does not realize the
20:59power of music psychologically, what it can do to you.
21:02Just simply playing different notes and different phrases on your guitar can make somebody, why my guitar gently weeps.
21:10I mean, you can make the guitar weep and people will just, it has such an impact.
21:15Can I tell you an anecdote?
21:16When I was at school, we had a very humorous physics master, yeah?
21:23And somebody was looking at the music for while my guitar gently weeps, which had just come out.
21:29And he looked over his shoulder and he said, it's not the guitar that weeps, it's the folks that have
21:34to listen to it.
21:35Well, you know, whenever I was playing in church, it was probably that way.
21:38They were crying for that.
21:41But no, the music really has an impact.
21:43And the work that Wimber did, and people have given me both pros and cons.
21:50Wimber was good.
21:51Wimber was bad.
21:52For me, he's neither.
21:53He brought the idea that you can take worship to this next level.
21:57And then what happened is, whether he intended for it to happen or not, you had many people who started
22:03abusing this.
22:05And I, you know, I hate to say it.
22:07I hate to call out and single out a certain organization because it's widespread.
22:12But I was in the car, I was listening to somebody who was playing some music that I'm certain was
22:18Bethel music.
22:19And I was just, I was so uncomfortable because the repetitions, all of the mechanics for manipulation were in that
22:28song.
22:28And I don't know even that the song author or composer had that intent, but it was there.
22:35And I'm sitting there thinking, this doesn't exist in any of the other music that I listen to, country music,
22:41rock, whatever.
22:42It's only in here that they try to manipulate you.
22:45In most cases, I should qualify, there are some.
22:49But in general, music doesn't do this.
22:51But in Christian music, it does.
22:53And why is that?
22:54I mean, the recorded and commercial music and the stuff that happens, you know, with the big bands and the
22:59megachurches, as I think I said last time, it is sort of different from the chat with his guitar and
23:04the keyboard player in a small church.
23:07But that means that the theology of the thing matters more and the aim of it.
23:11And I think the differences that came with that whole worship leader thing was the concept, which sounds good at
23:21first hearing, that we are encountering God.
23:24And therefore, whatever it takes in the music to encounter God is good.
23:28So you kind of have repetitive words.
23:32It's all addressed to God.
23:34And people raise their hands in the air and close their eyes.
23:38And it's all kind of that.
23:39And it took me a long time to realize, apart from my slight discomfort with that, that the theology was
23:46completely different.
23:47And that if you look at the scriptural theology, particularly in Ephesians, that we are singing together to build each
23:55other up in the faith.
23:57And that's why hymns have theological content, because you're sharing the faith.
24:02Have you heard of Keith Getty?
24:05Keith Getty is another British songwriter working in Nashville now, I think.
24:10But he was talking about the fact that in the past, hymnody, singing hymns, is what brings young people their
24:23knowledge of doctrine.
24:26And you were talking about Amazing Grace last time.
24:29You know, you sing that, and you might not understand the words, but it's a good tune, and the words
24:35sound nice.
24:36And you kind of learn them because you sing it often enough.
24:39When you become a Christian in later life, you've got all those theological lessons.
24:43And you think, oh, right, that's what it meant.
24:45And you can't do that if you're saying, Jesus, I love you.
24:48Jesus, I love you.
24:50Your goodness is running over.
24:53It's running over me.
24:54And that's my point exactly.
24:56You know, whether you believe in critical thinking or not, if you are engaged in a congregation where that type
25:04of manipulation is happening, and you're not thinking about it, now you can inject the doctrines, whatever is in the
25:11music.
25:11You can inject it right in your heads.
25:13But here's the key.
25:15After that has happened, because worship music usually leads to a pouring out your hearts, opening your hearts to receive
25:23the message that's coming.
25:24And then the speaker comes out.
25:26If he reaffirms what you heard in that music, which is what is happening in this movement, once he reaffirms
25:32it, it is almost solidified in your head.
25:34Absolutely.
25:36And that is the power of music, because it has the power to stir emotions, the intellect, the body.
25:44And it ought to be better than it is.
25:47But I gather that even the Christian music industry is in meltdown, like most of society at the moment, which
25:54might turn out to be a good thing.
25:56If people are thrown back on older stuff, writing their own stuff and local action would be a good thing,
26:06I think.
26:07So let's talk a little bit about what happens with the revival culture after this has swept through the UK.
26:14In the United States, it did emerge quite differently.
26:18The revival culture swept through the United States, and you had all of these various schisms in the movement, and
26:24they started to splinter.
26:25And each splinter group started to develop their own cults, and these cults became very destructive.
26:31And honestly, it keeps me busy on my website, because I can track all of these movements.
26:36I've not really done that so much in the UK.
26:39I assume to some extent that exists, but it does not seem to be as prominent as it is in
26:45the United States.
26:46Would you say that's true?
26:47Yeah, we've had our various movements, but I've been looking back to my own church history, which, as I said
26:55last time, the history goes back to 1646.
26:58And looking at the church book of the 19th century, we were a strict Baptist church, a Reformed Baptist church.
27:09But you find us baptizing the Methodists or baptizing the local Bible Christians who were another.
27:16That was a subgroup of Methodists who split off and then eventually got reabsorbed back into the Methodist movement.
27:22And I think the revival thing here, it never quite took on the showmanship thing.
27:32That was Finney, I think.
27:34But it did take on the second blessing thing.
27:38And that came through Wesley, I think.
27:40He was a great fan of the Moravians under Count Zinzendorf, who had his own IHOP, KC thing going for
27:48100 years, you know, the prayer meeting.
27:49But I didn't find out until recently that Count Zinzendorf believed that conversion was a climatic event, you know, an
27:58emotional event that involved justification, you know, salvation, that involved assurance and perfect sanctification.
28:08You became sinless and holy.
28:09Now, that's what Wesley wanted as a sort of failed missionary.
28:14And he had this experience when he was reading the preface to Luther's lectures on Romans.
28:25But he writes in his diary that he was very disappointed that he didn't have the sanctification.
28:30He didn't have the holiness.
28:31So he was really, really pleased that he knew he was a Christian.
28:34Now, he had the assurance, but he lacked holiness.
28:37And it's funny that he goes on to preach a doctrine of Christian perfection, which is a second blessing, presumably
28:47because he missed out on the second blessing himself.
28:50Now, that was rejected widely by the Christian movement, but it got morphed into the holiness movement, where you still
28:57have a second blessing.
28:58But it was for what they then called entire sanctification, which was sort of perfect dedication to the Lord, even
29:06though you still had sin in your life.
29:08Same experience is supposed to be a different result.
29:11And that went on to power for service.
29:14And that's where you get to the sort of Welsh revival time when you've got in order to serve the
29:20Lord, you really need more of the Holy Spirit's fire.
29:24And that, of course, paved the way for saying, oh, what about these spiritual gifts?
29:27So you then got the baptism of the Spirit for spiritual gifts.
29:31And when it came across to England in the 60s, because we had the theology to say, or many of
29:37them had the theology to say, no, it can't be baptism of the Spirit.
29:39That's when you're converted.
29:41So they reinterpreted this fullness of the Spirit.
29:44And by the time we get now through to the NAR-derived things, you don't have to have anything.
29:51You just have an experience of the Spirit.
29:52And it's not defined at all.
29:55It's just you can come close to God and encounter Him.
29:58And it's sometimes doubtful whether you even have to be a Christian to encounter that, which is another very dangerous
30:04thing.
30:05But as I said last time, the experience seeking of the theology.
30:09But that's how the second blessing thing came through, into revivalism.
30:15That's what is expected in revival.
30:18But I don't think it's what God wants to send us.
30:20He just wants to send us repentance and the gospel of faith in Jesus and forgiveness.
30:26Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
30:35reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
30:40You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
30:48On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
30:56John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:02You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
31:09If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
31:15top.
31:15And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
31:21watching.
31:22On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:26You know, it's really odd to me, because whenever I left the Branham Movement, I read the Bible over and
31:32over.
31:33I've mentioned this several times, just to wash all this nonsense out of my head.
31:37And then I started studying ancient mythologies, because I wanted to know how it worked.
31:43Studied Christian history, because I wanted to know how that affected and impacted Christianity, Gnosticism, it's merging in.
31:50And then studied modern church history, to some extent.
31:53I'm still deeply in studying that.
31:57What's interesting is, in the modern church histories, good and bad, I don't know that there is a label, good
32:03and bad, when you study these guys.
32:05Just historical figures, some of which had good fruit, some of which had bad fruit.
32:09That's how I'll say it.
32:11Many of those men, who had good fruit and bad fruit, seem to come up with some sort of a
32:17formula of what you must do to be saved.
32:21And that's really problematic.
32:23In fact, well-respected, and I'm not going to mention names, because I'll make people mad, but well-respected Christian
32:29leaders of the past would say, we should do this, this, and this, because the Bible says it.
32:35And they give the verses, right?
32:37And what they're doing, essentially, is they're creating a formula for salvation, and people go off and they form a
32:42denomination on it.
32:44Then it becomes more like a concoction.
32:48You must do this.
32:50And over time, it turns into, now we are this group of people because we follow this formula to be
32:57saved.
32:57And the Bible never says that there's a formula to be saved.
33:00So it becomes like a witch's brew of ideas.
33:04And the modern charismatic movement kind of upended that, which that part might be good,
33:10but they brought in so many other elements of spiritualism, where now the movement doesn't really resemble Christianity as much
33:18as it does some of the other world religions.
33:20And if you don't study the other world religions, you don't realize how similar they actually are.
33:26Well, I'm a big fan of the English Puritans, and of course, Jonathan Edwards was the heir to that.
33:33But they had developed this crisis approach to conversion, and you get these testimonies of years of kind of seeking.
33:45John Bunyan, for example, the Pilgrim's progress man, spent years in sort of conviction of sin without somehow twigging the
33:55answer.
33:55And then at some point, the light breaks, and they're saved, and then they go on to greater things.
34:01And one of the refreshing things in Jonathan Edwards' book on Christian emotions, he says,
34:07actually, in real life, it's seldom like that at all.
34:11And very often what happened, and this is perhaps another psychological thing,
34:15is that, yes, the components of salvation are there, the realization of sin, the repentance, the faith,
34:22the beginning to kind of change your life around.
34:25But he says they're often in a completely different order, and people can't really describe them.
34:30And what happens is that when they start sharing their testimony with people,
34:35other people kind of steer them, and you come a few years down the line,
34:40they're giving the standard testimony about being years of conviction,
34:45because they've been pushed into the formula.
34:47And there were just as much Christians before.
34:49All the essential things were there, but they didn't fit the formula.
34:53And that's the biblical pattern.
34:55You find people deeply, big crisis.
35:00Other people just seem to sort of say, oh, yeah, I believe, and they're happy.
35:03Other people that we know can't remember when they were converted.
35:08They were so young.
35:09You know, in the group that I came from, whenever you had a conversion experience,
35:14and that's a personal thing.
35:16That's between you and God.
35:17There were people who actually would question your conversion experience.
35:22So, for example, somebody came to the – we call it come to the faith.
35:27They came to the faith, which meant they believed in our religion,
35:31they believed in our prophet, et cetera.
35:33But if their conversion experience was in a church that taught the Trinity, for example,
35:38they would question the whole experience, even though that experience was to that person.
35:43Now, I've left this movement, I'm going beyond this,
35:46and I'm seeing very similar things across various other groups.
35:50They put so much emphasis on how you were converted rather than if you were converted
35:57because they're injecting all of those doctrines into the method
36:00so that the doctrines themselves – and I'm trying to form a thought here –
36:05the doctrines themselves actually become, in my opinion, sort of an idol to the movement.
36:10If you weren't converted under their set of doctrines, it wasn't a true conversion.
36:16You know, the teaching – what you're converted to is what you're baptized into.
36:20And, I mean, in our church and, I think, most orthodox-type churches,
36:25you'll be making some kind of credible profession of faith.
36:30That is, do you believe and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ?
36:34Do you repent of your sins?
36:36Do you renounce evil?
36:38Well, and I might have missed something out there, but with those simple questions,
36:43well, if you believe those things, into the water you go.
36:47And the rest is up to God, how genuine that is.
36:49And most churches will have some kind of testimony.
36:53We had a very enlightened thing in our church in the 19th century
36:58because it was a fairly strict church, and when I was looking back through the books,
37:03they were talking about people standing at baptism and giving their testimony.
37:08And I was thinking, yeah, that's kind of quite difficult.
37:10And to my surprise, in the church book, they said,
37:13a lot of people find that really, really difficult,
37:15so we're not going to do that anymore.
37:17What we're going to do is to send one of the elders around,
37:20listen to them in their own words,
37:22and they'll present it on behalf of the person in case they're tongue-tied.
37:28And I was thinking, well, yeah, as long as you know what the person has committed themselves to,
37:35and that they are committed,
37:36that that's what you need to know, isn't it?
37:40It's baptism in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
37:44so you hope that the people will believe that.
37:47And it's repentance from sin to new life.
37:51Yeah, it's the simple stuff.
37:54So let's talk about the prophetic movement a little bit.
37:57In the United States, as I mentioned,
37:58you had all of these cults that developed from this movement,
38:01each one going off different directions.
38:03Why is this?
38:04Because each movement claimed that they had either a prophet or an apostle who had,
38:09and they used different names for this,
38:11in Branhamism it was called the spoken word.
38:13But basically, the revealed word of your day,
38:17in other words, this is the Bible for our day,
38:20and it's coming through a human.
38:21How much and to what extent did that spread into the UK?
38:25Did they accept it or did they not?
38:27Well, I call before the third wave,
38:30when you began to get,
38:31well, no, I think the whole charismatic movement,
38:33there was the concept of prophecy.
38:37And what didn't seem to be,
38:38you know, you're speaking forth God's word,
38:41and no one seemed to twig that if God says the opposite,
38:47that you're probably not,
38:48one of you at least is not hearing from God.
38:51So there was quite a unity.
38:52It wasn't kind of like there were division after division after division,
38:55and fighting each other.
38:57But one example I remember was that I mentioned David Watson,
39:01who was one of the early people,
39:02invited John Wimber along,
39:04an Anglican.
39:05And he experimented with female leadership
39:10in the kind of communal living thing that they set up,
39:15and got opposition for the idea of,
39:19in the Anglican church,
39:20having female leaders in those days.
39:22But he was convinced that the spirit was telling him
39:25that female leaders were what God wanted.
39:29But Michael Harper,
39:31who we also mentioned,
39:33eventually left the Anglican church,
39:35joined the Orthodox church,
39:37because the Church of England brought in women leaders.
39:42So the Holy Spirit was telling him that he had to get out,
39:44because there were women.
39:45And the Holy Spirit was telling David.
39:48And you're thinking,
39:48right,
39:49there's something wrong with the doctrine there.
39:51You're not hearing.
39:54And so,
39:56it's become,
39:57again,
39:58words from God
39:59have become to a penny
40:01in the kind of charismatic end in Britain.
40:05It's just not thought of.
40:06The fact that nothing's ever tested,
40:08the fact that nothing ever comes true.
40:10it's what I call vanilla prophecy very often.
40:13You know,
40:13the ones that actually say something don't come true.
40:16And the ones that say,
40:18God loves you,
40:19my children.
40:20Yeah,
40:21we knew that.
40:23It's in the Bible.
40:24So why do I need
40:26somebody telling me that?
40:28Yeah,
40:28it reminds me of the carnival,
40:30and the whole movement's kind of like a carnival,
40:32but at the carnival,
40:33there's that line moving where you,
40:34you know,
40:35you shoot the gun,
40:36and the thing drops.
40:37Well,
40:37if you miss it,
40:38you just shoot the next one,
40:39or you shoot the next one.
40:40That's the way the prophecy works,
40:42right?
40:42If you miss it,
40:43let's just go for the next one.
40:44And people,
40:45they forget that the first one failed,
40:47because it's rapid fire prophecy,
40:48basically.
40:49Well,
40:49as I was hearing somebody say the other day,
40:51an ex-Bethel person,
40:52I think,
40:53one of the things that gave him pause for thought,
40:56was that the commandment says,
41:00thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.
41:03And every time you make a false prophet prophecy,
41:06you're actually taking the,
41:09you're sinning.
41:10And as he said,
41:11I can't understand,
41:12he said,
41:13how Bethel want me to train me by making mistakes,
41:16which basically,
41:17I've got to train to be a prophet by sinning,
41:20which doesn't work.
41:23But it's only,
41:24it's a failure to realize that the prophet knows he's speaking from God.
41:29I'm thinking of,
41:29of the biblical prophets,
41:32and anyone else who's a real prophet out there,
41:35doesn't have doubt that what they're saying is from God.
41:39You,
41:39you don't get,
41:40I feel the Lord telling me.
41:42Because if you feel it,
41:43and don't know it,
41:45it's not from God.
41:46It's like,
41:47we were doing Bible study today on Peter's,
41:49Peter healing.
41:51The,
41:52raising the woman from the dead.
41:56Tabitha.
41:56Yes,
41:57Tabitha arise.
41:59And it was in the context that people have been talking about praying for healing.
42:06And Peter didn't pray for healing.
42:08It takes a certain amount of kind of courage to kind of go up to someone,
42:13a dead person and say,
42:15rise.
42:16And that's what he said.
42:17And they did.
42:19He knew,
42:20unlike the,
42:20the Bethel people who just have this thing.
42:22If I believe enough,
42:23it'll happen.
42:24Yeah.
42:25You know,
42:26or even just,
42:27Lord,
42:27we do really do want this,
42:28but we'll pray for it.
42:29And that's,
42:30it's a good thing to pray for the sick.
42:32I'm not so sure.
42:33It's such a good thing to pray for the dead because only three people in the New Testament healed,
42:38raised the dead.
42:39And that was Jesus and Peter and Paul.
42:42And they're all basing it on Elijah.
42:45I don't know if you caught it or not,
42:47but recently Charles and I,
42:49we were given a,
42:50right before the Bethel stuff came out,
42:52we were given a transcript of a conversation between Paul Kane and Chuck Smith,
42:57where you can tell clearly there is bullying going on.
43:01Paul Kane had some information.
43:03Apparently he was trying to use that.
43:06Well,
43:06after this happened,
43:08then the,
43:09all of the Bethel stuff come out and in the United States,
43:12there's this big uproar in the charismatic community because now they're starting to see these people aren't really what they
43:18told us that they were,
43:19but we don't know yet what they are because look at this mess that's that exists.
43:24How much of that fallout do you think has spread into the UK?
43:27I'm,
43:28I'm wondering myself because I say there is a,
43:32an interest in Bethel,
43:34particularly Hillsong,
43:35because I'm not sure you see if that we people sing Hillsong songs and don't realize that the movement went
43:42down the pan a year or two ago.
43:44And it's quite possible that what's been happening at Bethel recently might have just not been known to many people.
43:54But I think the danger is,
43:57or the problem is that it's a failure to realize the connections and the,
44:02and the roots of the things,
44:03which is again,
44:03something that you've been very strong on that if you think,
44:07Oh,
44:07there's some bad pennies,
44:08uh,
44:09there,
44:09there are these people,
44:10gosh,
44:11a fraud.
44:11Well,
44:12it's the genuine ones we want.
44:14And then it's only when you start saying,
44:16well,
44:16where exactly are the genuine ones?
44:18You know,
44:18if,
44:19if we're going over to Bethel,
44:20British people,
44:21or Toronto,
44:23Brinyard,
44:24uh,
44:24because that's where it's happening.
44:26And you find that that's a fake.
44:28And if you hear about the Reinhard bonkers in Africa,
44:32and you realize that those are exaggerated as well,
44:36uh,
44:38you have to ask yourself,
44:39you know,
44:40where is the real thing?
44:41Um,
44:42and maybe the theology is the problem.
44:45Uh,
44:45it's not a new,
44:46it's not an old theology.
44:48Um,
44:48although,
44:50um,
44:50have you,
44:51have you read about the Montanists at all in your historical things?
44:55I've read some,
44:56but I want to go a little bit deeper.
44:58Yeah.
44:59I mean,
44:59if you look,
45:00look at the sources for them,
45:01I did this,
45:02I did it in a blog the other day,
45:03look,
45:04just reading,
45:04um,
45:06Eusebius and people like that.
45:08This,
45:08for those who don't know,
45:09Montanus was the first charismatic,
45:11in about 156,
45:13157 AD,
45:15uh,
45:16a new convert,
45:17uh,
45:18who,
45:18according to the sources,
45:20wanted to be boss.
45:21And so he started having these prophecies,
45:24but the fascinating thing to me was that everything about that movement was like the message.
45:33You had,
45:34um,
45:35the criticism every for everyone else who not,
45:37not for not believing,
45:38uh,
45:39you know,
45:39the whole church is condemned because,
45:41it doesn't,
45:42uh,
45:42accept them.
45:43You've got false prophecy.
45:44You've got the setting up of a new Jerusalem in this tin pot little village.
45:49Uh,
45:49you've got,
45:50uh,
45:51all,
45:51all the things,
45:52the money grabbing,
45:53um,
45:53the,
45:54the kind of,
45:54uh,
45:56shady,
45:57uh,
45:57business activities on the side.
45:59and you're,
45:59you could have,
46:00you could be reading about,
46:02you know,
46:03William Brennan or someone like that.
46:05Um,
46:06and it was,
46:07the difference was that when that happened,
46:10all the churches locally in that area of Turkey got together and said,
46:14what is this?
46:14And they said,
46:15this is rubbish and they expelled them.
46:18Okay.
46:19What happens to us is that we change our evangelical doctrines to suit the charlatans,
46:25which strikes me as slightly weird.
46:27We,
46:28we have a good heritage of doctrine.
46:30I think we should stick to it.
46:32Yeah.
46:32Back in the day,
46:33if you were doing something that was affecting a lot of people negatively,
46:37they would have put a quick stop to it.
46:38And today you just,
46:40you get away with it.
46:41Not only do you get away with it in the United States,
46:43you get away with it and you don't have to pay tax on it.
46:47Yes.
46:47Well,
46:48we,
46:48we,
46:48we don't have the same excess.
46:50We,
46:51we,
46:51we export it.
46:53Um,
46:53there's the odd saying that if America sneezes,
46:56Britain catches the cold or America,
46:57catches the cold,
46:58Britain sneezes,
46:59you know,
46:59a bit later.
47:00Um,
47:01and that's still true despite the fallout between your president and our
47:05prime minister.
47:06Um,
47:07the,
47:08there's a tendency to think that America is,
47:12is doing it on a,
47:13on a good scale because it's right rather than thinking,
47:16well,
47:16they're just like us.
47:18And,
47:18you know,
47:19that's got me interested because last,
47:21last time we had a conversation,
47:22we talked about how the merger of Christian nationalism and all of these
47:26movements created this mess here.
47:28And I was asking you,
47:29did it come into the UK?
47:30You mentioned the president.
47:31I'm actually interested and curious to know there comes a point whenever
47:35people start to see through things and we're starting to see it in the
47:39United States.
47:40People are starting to realize,
47:41well,
47:42wait a minute,
47:42this thing that we have now in our political system,
47:45they're telling us that it was a merger of God and politics.
47:49But now we're starting to realize that that's a mess and we can't,
47:53uh,
47:55I almost use the name that begins with an E that I can't use.
47:58Now that we're seeing some of the really dirty laundry of these guys,
48:02there's no way I can say God's involved with this.
48:05And Americans are starting to wake up.
48:08I'm wondering how that is affecting what you're seeing in UK because we see
48:13that's a mess.
48:14And yet some of that movement came over here into the UK.
48:17I think there's a difference.
48:19Um,
48:20now the,
48:21what happened in America,
48:23uh,
48:23in terms of political change was a genuine dissatisfaction with corruption.
48:28Now,
48:28whether you,
48:28you know,
48:29whether,
48:30whether this corruption came in to replace it is,
48:32is another matter.
48:33But,
48:34uh,
48:34I think there's always been,
48:36um,
48:38an uneasy interaction in America between the state and the religion,
48:43despite the fact you haven't got a state religion.
48:45Yeah.
48:46We have the Anglican church,
48:48which is in a mess at the moment,
48:49but,
48:50um,
48:51there hasn't been because the government is very much more secular,
48:54um,
48:55or has been.
48:56Now,
48:57I think what's been happening is that we've had a huge problem with
49:01secularization.
49:02We have an increasing problem with Islamization and,
49:05and our three largest cities have a,
49:10from a country that was almost exclusively white when I was born with,
49:15you know,
49:15some people from various places across the world,
49:19our three largest cities are majority non-white.
49:23Uh,
49:24and that is a,
49:25a huge demographic change,
49:26which is,
49:27is causing all sorts of problems.
49:28You might've heard of the RAPE gangs situation,
49:32which is still being obscured by the E situation at the moment.
49:36The press don't want to cover it,
49:38even though there's an inquiry going on at the moment.
49:42The British people are saying,
49:43or many people are saying,
49:45there's something very wrong with our country.
49:47It's got to be put right.
49:49And that's been the seed of revival,
49:51I think,
49:51because many people have said,
49:52actually,
49:53we used to be a Christian country and that it wasn't like it this then.
49:57Um,
49:58so on the one hand,
49:59there's cultural Christianity.
50:00People have been saying,
50:02well,
50:02I don't believe in this stuff,
50:03but the,
50:03you know,
50:04I believe in the ethics.
50:05Well,
50:05I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
50:07It's,
50:07it's going to happen,
50:08but there are many people,
50:10even,
50:10uh,
50:12leading spokesmen who are saying,
50:14actually,
50:15I've been foolish all my life.
50:17I should have not rejected Christ.
50:19Uh,
50:20so you've got this grassroots movement of people who are saying,
50:24a,
50:25I am really genuinely interested in Christianity and in Christ,
50:30or I believe,
50:31and B,
50:33how can we save our country?
50:35Right.
50:35And I think it's not,
50:37it's a nationalism in the sense,
50:39uh,
50:39it's called Christian nationalism by many people,
50:41but it's Christianity with patriotism.
50:44Uh,
50:46one of the things that made me nuance my views on this was,
50:52one of the firebrands,
50:53have you heard of a firebrand called Tommy Robinson in Britain?
50:56Uh,
50:57it's notorious.
50:59The press,
51:00he started to speak out about the grooming gangs many years ago,
51:05and the establishment didn't want that being known.
51:10And so they basically put the law onto him,
51:13lawfare.
51:15so he,
51:16and the press thing saying he was far right,
51:19that he was a criminal and all the rest of it.
51:22So he was very well demonized,
51:24but he's been,
51:26had a rally of over a million people in London last year.
51:29Um,
51:30and there were many Christians there.
51:32Uh,
51:32there were Christian flags,
51:34people handing out tracts,
51:35and people singing Christian songs and,
51:38and speaking as Christians,
51:40you know,
51:40church men from the stage.
51:41And,
51:42uh,
51:42I was thinking,
51:43Hey,
51:43this is actually a very interesting phenomenon,
51:45you know?
51:46And there was one bunch of people from,
51:48uh,
51:49New Zealand who,
51:52from what they were saying and from the whole demeanor of the thing,
51:55you thought,
51:55this is an AR.
51:57And they were talking about basically closing down all the mosques and
52:00closing down all the Buddhist temples and,
52:02you know,
52:03kicking out the Jews.
52:04And you're thinking,
52:05right,
52:05this isn't,
52:05this is dominionism.
52:06No,
52:07this is not good.
52:08Um,
52:08and I was thinking,
52:09Oh,
52:09right.
52:10Uh,
52:10you know,
52:10perhaps I've wronged to approve of this movement.
52:13But then afterwards,
52:16um,
52:17the organizer,
52:18which was Tommy Robinson said,
52:19yeah,
52:20I didn't,
52:21I didn't approve of that.
52:22I didn't want them to say that,
52:23you know,
52:23they,
52:23they,
52:24they came across from New Zealand and said,
52:25can we speak?
52:26And we said,
52:26yes,
52:27uh,
52:27we'll be more careful in future.
52:29Um,
52:29so disowning the dominionism idea.
52:32Um,
52:33and what seems to be happening in the sort of Christian,
52:36what you might call Christian nationalist thing.
52:38You haven't got that,
52:39what you seem to be getting in the prophetic movement in America of,
52:44um,
52:45you know,
52:46Trump's going to win.
52:47Yeah.
52:47in 2020.
52:49Um,
52:51even if he didn't,
52:52um,
52:55it's not really a primarily a charismatic movement,
52:57as far as I can tell.
52:58It's just people saying,
52:59uh,
53:00we want the,
53:01the Bible,
53:02the Christian,
53:02Christianity from the Bible.
53:04Um,
53:05so it could be a healthy thing,
53:06but of course it could easily be drunked off course,
53:09by nationalism or by,
53:11or just by something else.
53:14Well,
53:14that's the exact reason that I asked that because what I'm seeing here in the
53:18United States,
53:18it's also the same kind of thing.
53:20People are just so disgusted and eventually people will start waking up.
53:24They are in numbers right now.
53:26Well,
53:26this usually in,
53:27if you study history,
53:29this usually ends in some sort of a revival,
53:31which starts a new beginning.
53:32So it's like the cycle,
53:34right?
53:35Well,
53:35with a revival comes the wolves.
53:37So you get the good people who are wanting to do the right thing.
53:40You have the wolves that come in.
53:41And I was just,
53:42I was simply curious to know was the same thing I'm seeing in the,
53:45in the United States happening in the UK.
53:48And it sounds like it is.
53:50I think it is a good thing because now there is one difference between what
53:54we've seen in historical versions of this.
53:57And now in today's world,
53:59we have instant access to information.
54:03And people are by and large,
54:05because of what just happened.
54:07Now they're engaging in more critical thinking than I've seen,
54:11even in the past revivals,
54:12people are critically thinking if a wolf comes in,
54:16there's a lot of people can say,
54:17get back out.
54:18We don't want your mess here.
54:19Yeah.
54:20Yeah.
54:21And if we've got a fault in this country,
54:23I think,
54:23first of all,
54:25there seems to be in the church.
54:28Overall,
54:29as opposed to kind of small pockets of people who are really speaking up for the
54:33things I've been talking about,
54:35there's still buying into the stories that people are told by the people with
54:41power.
54:42And so I'm slightly concerned that someone saying,
54:48I don't like the way this country is going and I want to become a Christian,
54:51they turn up at a church and find that the church isn't really interested in politics
54:55because they're pietists and they're saying,
54:57oh,
54:57well,
54:57no,
54:57we,
54:58we,
54:58we just do religion here.
55:01And that's in some ways a good thing,
55:05but I think,
55:05you know,
55:06we've been given a vote by the various people down the earth.
55:10The founders of my church fought a civil war for religious freedom.
55:14And I'm aware of that and thinking,
55:17okay,
55:17how do we translate that spirit and pick up on the faults,
55:23you know,
55:23avoid the faults that they had for our own age.
55:27So if I were younger,
55:29I might do more politics.
55:31Well,
55:31I'm glad that neither one of us have to get into politics.
55:34I can't imagine getting,
55:37but this has been crazy interesting.
55:39Thank you so much for doing this.
55:40No,
55:40thank you for having me.
55:41Well,
55:41if you enjoyed our show and you want more information,
55:43you can check us out on the web.
55:44You can find us at william-branham.org.
55:47For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
55:50you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity,
55:52to the NAR available on Amazon,
55:55Kindle and audible.
56:34For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:34you can find us at william-branham.org.
56:36For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:36you can find us at william-branham.org.
56:41For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:41you can find us at william-branham.org.
56:43For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:43you can find us at william-branham.org.
56:45For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:45you can find us at william-branham.org.
56:45For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,
56:47you can find us at william-branham.
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