Worship Music Manipulation: When Emotion Replaces Discernment | Brantley Smith

19 hours ago

John and Brantley explore how music functions as one of the most powerful—and least examined—tools of influence inside charismatic and New Apostolic Reformation–aligned environments. Drawing from firsthand experience at IHOPKC and decades of worship leadership, they break down how rhythm, tempo, chord progressions, repetition, and emotional pacing shape belief, expectation, and group identity far beyond lyrics alone.

The conversation examines earworms, emotional conditioning, prophetic language embedded in songs, and how worship can subtly reinforce fear, dependency, and elite identity. At the same time, the discussion distinguishes between harmful manipulation and healthy musical guidance, offering insight into how the same musical techniques can be used to comfort, ground, and restore rather than control.

00:00 Introduction
01:52 Manipulation: Always Bad?
07:06 IHOPKC Culture and Musical Messaging
14:53 The Emotional Build: BPM, Minor Keys, and Dynamics
23:59 Earworms and Theological Conditioning
30:42 How Worship Prepares People for the Sermon
41:57 Hell, Depravity, and Psychological Impact
53:16 Healthy Uses of Worship Music
59:33 Reclaiming Music for Peace and Healing
______________________
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Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Brantley Smith.

00:00:46Brantley, I'm a little bit excited for this episode.

00:00:48If you can't tell by looking back at my room, I am a musician, and any subject about music always

00:00:55fascinates me and makes me want to just get out of guitar and break out into song.

00:00:58But I will keep the peace, and I won't do that.

00:01:02But I recently did a podcast.

00:01:05I don't know if you caught it or not, but we were talking about the power of music as it

00:01:11relates to the New Apostolic Reformation and the methods of persuasion that can be used in that.

00:01:18And I got to thinking, you and I have had many conversations.

00:01:20You are a musician as well, and you were in the music at IHOPKC.

00:01:25And I had one person who actually asked this in the comment feed with that podcast.

00:01:31He said, do more of these.

00:01:33I'm curious to hear more about the music.

00:01:35And I got to thinking, who better to talk to than a musician who's at IHOPKC and talk about the

00:01:40manipulation through worship, which is a fully uncharted territory as it relates to the New Apostolic Reformation investigation.

00:01:48So, with that, let's dive into music.

00:01:52Yeah, no, you definitely have more guitars than I do.

00:01:55I got a couple good ones, but that's it.

00:01:59So, but I'm still leading worship on a regular basis.

00:02:01So, I'm still in those circles, and it's something I think about a whole lot.

00:02:08What music does to people, how it influences people, which is thoughts that I didn't have.

00:02:15So, I've been leading worship since I was 14 years old.

00:02:17So, I'm 34 now, so about 20 years that I've been doing corporate worship stuff and have seen, you know,

00:02:25all the highs and lows of that in the midst of very NAR-type environments and prophetic environments, spontaneous environments,

00:02:33and local church as well.

00:02:36So, and it's really, it's kind of a nerdy hobby of mine to look at the things that I'm doing

00:02:42even now and seeing how it affects a room.

00:02:46And I think, I don't know how much you've talked about this on the podcast and stuff, but, you know,

00:02:52I'm of the belief that manipulation in and of itself might not be bad, depending on what motivations and what

00:02:58the desired outcomes and stuff are.

00:03:00And so, as a worship leader and looking at the experiences that people have and what you want a room

00:03:05to experience sometimes can be a good thing and help people go on a journey of sorts.

00:03:10But, yeah, at the House of Prayer, it was very central to the DNA.

00:03:15I mean, it's harp and bowl, and, yeah, it's a big topic.

00:03:20So, where are we going to start?

00:03:23Well, I guess something you said is where we'll start.

00:03:26Manipulation is not always bad.

00:03:27That is something that it took me a while to realize after coming out of a destructive cult.

00:03:33When you come out of something like this, any form of manipulation, if you detect it or sense it, immediately

00:03:40your guard goes up.

00:03:41You become heightened in awareness.

00:03:44You're hypercritical, I should say.

00:03:47And whoever is doing it, you're angry at them.

00:03:50I was that way, and here's the sad part.

00:03:53You will be in a business meeting for me, but for most people, you'll be at your employer, and your

00:04:01employer will invite somebody in who's a speaker, motivational speaker, something like this, and you'll detect it.

00:04:06And you'll be instantly angry at the world.

00:04:10And for me, it was actually starting to show in business meetings.

00:04:13There was a period of time I got so angry.

00:04:15I handed most of my business meetings over to one of my contractors and just let them take over for

00:04:23me, which is kind of funny.

00:04:24But I couldn't help it because you are so in tune with that manipulation.

00:04:30But there are techniques of manipulation that are good.

00:04:34But I always recommend people read the book Propaganda by Edward Bernays, I think it is, Sigmund Freud's nephew.

00:04:41That book really describes how to achieve mass psychology, and it walks you through exactly what leaders in the New

00:04:48Apostolic Reformation are doing, what Branham was doing.

00:04:52You can go back down through time, and you can literally go back through all of the charismatic figures who

00:04:58had a massive stage presence, and they're using techniques.

00:05:01Now, are they all bad?

00:05:02Not necessarily.

00:05:04But here's where the problem lies.

00:05:07With the business meeting example, somebody comes in, he or she's doing a motivational speech, and they're using psychological techniques

00:05:17to make you very excited about working and feel good about yourself, feel good about the company, and you can

00:05:26detect it.

00:05:26That's why you get a little bit upset.

00:05:28That's why I got a little bit upset.

00:05:29But what they're doing is actually energizing the employees of a workforce in that case.

00:05:36Take it to a church, you can do the same thing.

00:05:39You can energize people to be on fire for Jesus.

00:05:41That's not necessarily bad.

00:05:43Here's where the problem lies.

00:05:44A lot of times these churches will do it insidiously and inject their extra-biblical doctrines into that platform.

00:05:51So they realize the power of manipulation.

00:05:53They realize the power it has over the crowd.

00:05:56And we have this obscure doctrine that only we have.

00:06:00The other churches down the road don't have it.

00:06:03Let's inject that into our singing.

00:06:05And once I learn how it all works, I'm one of these mechanically-minded people.

00:06:11I just want to open the hood and see what the engine's running.

00:06:14I just started going down through all of the songs that we had that were only special to us in

00:06:19the destructive group.

00:06:20And, oh, my gosh, man, I'm starting to realize they're using psychological techniques through music to manipulate my head.

00:06:26And the power of it was so strong that during the day, during the week, you're not in service.

00:06:33You know, you go on Sunday.

00:06:34And for us, we didn't go back until Wednesday.

00:06:36For an average person, it's not until next Sunday.

00:06:39So from Sunday to Wednesday and from Thursday to next Sunday, those songs were resonating in my head.

00:06:46And I would be working and thinking about them.

00:06:48And what I was doing, I was literally brainwashing myself with the lyrics, but not simply because of the lyrics.

00:06:55It was more about the beats and the rhythms and the progressions, the chord progressions.

00:07:00You know what I'm talking about.

00:07:02So I just want to talk about the dynamics of how all that works.

00:07:06Yeah, it's interesting.

00:07:08As you're talking about it, Misty is the one who comes to mind, Misty Edwards.

00:07:12It's kind of an inside joke with iHopper's that you can kind of start a sentence or say a phrase

00:07:18and finish it with a Misty lyric.

00:07:21And it's because a lot of it was so formative and impactful.

00:07:27And what's funny is some of it was Mike's language that Misty would then sing.

00:07:35She had this one that's kind of, it's definitely a meme in our circles now, but if you don't quit,

00:07:42you win.

00:07:43And she would sing this thing of, if you don't quit, you win.

00:07:47And I can't tell you how many people didn't quit because they wanted to win.

00:07:54And so that's, you know, that was one of the things that kept us there and kept us in the

00:07:59moment.

00:08:00But there was always, it was a vehicle for the theology and the message.

00:08:09It was a whole lot easier to sing, because IHOP was very eschatology forward.

00:08:15It was a whole lot easier to sing about the judgments of God than to have to talk about them

00:08:20and have a conversation about them.

00:08:23To say that just and true are your judgments, O God, which is scripture, but at IHOP it means something

00:08:28totally different.

00:08:31That was a whole lot more palatable for people.

00:08:35And what was interesting, too, is it was even a vehicle for the prophetic history and the lore and the

00:08:41storytelling.

00:08:43I don't know, you've probably, have you heard a lot of IHOP music at all?

00:08:47I've heard some, not a lot.

00:08:49I'll be honest, I'm still triggered greatly by listening to Christian music.

00:08:53And it's something that I'm working through.

00:08:56My wife, it's interesting, my wife are two different personalities.

00:08:59She is just excited to hear it like nonstop, 24-7.

00:09:04You get in the car, she's playing it, and my head's going, no, no, stop this.

00:09:09And she's become aware of this, and now she'll put on something that's calm for both of us.

00:09:14But I have listened to it.

00:09:16I don't like it.

00:09:17I don't like to listen to it.

00:09:19And heck no, you're not going to manipulate my head.

00:09:23There was one song that Misty would do, and she would always, I feel like I've talked about this somewhere,

00:09:28and I can't remember if it was with you or not, but about waiting for the rain.

00:09:33I can't remember exactly what the song was called, but the verse went something like that, I've heard the story

00:09:39told of the prophet who prophesied of the rain that would come in the middle of the drought that would

00:09:45tell of the rains to come.

00:09:48That was the first verse.

00:09:50It's crazy that I can still remember it like that.

00:09:52It sounds very riddled and mysterious, metaphoric.

00:09:56And what she was talking about was one of Bob Jones' words in the early days of Metro before IHOP

00:10:02KC.

00:10:04I may butcher the details, but there was this prophetic word about a drought that would happen and that there

00:10:09would be rain, and it would symbolize the coming revival, which to IHOP meant the great end time revival.

00:10:17And so at times it was at staff meetings, at anniversaries and things, Misty would break out this song, and

00:10:24it would just be her and piano a lot of times.

00:10:28Every once in a while she'd play with a full band, and the course was, we're still waiting for the

00:10:34rain, we're still waiting for the rain.

00:10:36And then she would always go off into some kind of spontaneous thing of how we still believe the promises,

00:10:41and she would start, you know, it was all spontaneous kind of stuff.

00:10:46She would sing the phrases that we still believe that there's going to be 500 to 5,000 overnight.

00:10:51We still believe that no disease known to man will stand.

00:10:55We still believe, you know, and she would rattle off these prophetic promises, quote unquote, from the prophetic history.

00:11:04And it was almost like a plumb line to the messaging, to the framework that we were all kind of

00:11:10buying into, which I think at this point we've seen that there's tons of holes in it.

00:11:15And, you know, it's a lot of it was fabricated and this and that.

00:11:19But it's really interesting to see how much that music does shape a culture.

00:11:28Have you talked about Bob Sorge at all in any of your podcasts?

00:11:33Are you familiar with him at all?

00:11:35No, I haven't.

00:11:35The name sounds familiar.

00:11:37I think I've came across him in my research, but I've not talked about him.

00:11:40Yeah, it depends on where you're coming into the IHOP circles at.

00:11:44Bob's a prolific author.

00:11:47I think most of his books were published through Destiny, I think, which, you know, is just a charismatic publisher.

00:11:53And I think they published some of Mike's books as well.

00:11:56I actually found Bob before I found the House of Prayer and read some of his books.

00:12:03But Bob Sorge was a worship leader and had some kind of vocal operation and lost his voice and barely

00:12:10can speak above a whisper now.

00:12:14And so he wrote his I think his most famous book is called Secrets of the Secret Place or something.

00:12:19It's a book on prayer.

00:12:21But I didn't realize that he was a big part of that community there.

00:12:24His wife was on the board of directors, Marcy Sorge.

00:12:28And she was kind of one of from what I hear, what the claims are is that she was kind

00:12:33of one of Mike's enforcers in the back room and put a female face to it.

00:12:36I guess supposed to make it more palatable and stuff.

00:12:38But Bob himself wasn't super involved in the leadership stuff and the day to day stuff.

00:12:44But Marcy was very integral and he had children that were involved doing music and stuff.

00:12:49And some of them are on the on the backside of things, probably in a healthier spot now.

00:12:55I don't know if all of them are, but I would hope that they are.

00:12:58But Bob wrote this book that was given to me.

00:13:02Whenever I first went to IHOP, I joined the Music Academy, which was their place where they're supposed to be

00:13:10training prophetic singers and musicians and worship leaders.

00:13:13And almost like the way that it was pitched to us was almost like a farm system for the prayer

00:13:17movement.

00:13:18Like this is where the talent will be developed and you all will be the next Misty's and Matt Gilman's

00:13:22and Corey Asbury's and all these different people.

00:13:27And one of the first books that was handed to me was Bob Sorge's little it was a little pamphlet

00:13:31book and it was called Following the River is what it was.

00:13:34It was a book that he had wrote on worship leading.

00:13:38And I held on to it for a long time.

00:13:39I think I eventually tossed it.

00:13:41But he also had some bigger books called Exploring Worship and they were guides on worship leading, almost like Mike's

00:13:48Harp and Bowl manuals.

00:13:49I don't know if you've seen those are kind of almost like a size of paper kind of book that's

00:13:54kind of bound together like a normal printer paper kind of size.

00:13:59But what Bob did was kind of paint this spiritual picture of worship leading of like the ebbs and flows

00:14:06of a journey, which if you've ever been in a charismatic worship service, they kind of and even evangelical nowadays

00:14:13are taken because evangelicals take the majority of their cues.

00:14:16I feel like from the charismatic worship movement and don't even realize it, your evangelical churches are playing the hill

00:14:22song and the Bethel and all these things.

00:14:24And they have no idea how insane their theology can actually be.

00:14:29But usually whenever you step into a charismatic worship service, one of the first things you're either going to have

00:14:32at like an IHOP, you're either going to have something that's like super slow and focusing that gets everybody calm

00:14:39and down into a focused moment, a tender moment where we're singing something like come Lord Jesus, come Holy Spirit,

00:14:47something of that nature.

00:14:49And then right after that, usually you're doing something that's four on the floor, you're 120 BPM, you're pounding, you

00:14:56know, and it gets the heart rate up, gets going.

00:15:00So sometimes you wouldn't have that first little calming one.

00:15:02You might just go straight into an upbeat song.

00:15:04And that's kind of a similar thing to what I would do on a Sunday morning now.

00:15:08But there's this ebb and flow.

00:15:10And if you keep doing that 120 BPM for, you know, a two-hour prayer meeting or an hour-long

00:15:15worship service at IHOP, that's how long corporate worship lasted, you're going to get people like very fatigued very quickly.

00:15:23So you had this kind of journey that people would go on.

00:15:26And what Bob was attempting to do, I think, was spiritualize that journey a little bit, like give spiritual language

00:15:32to it rather than approaching it honestly like we are with being like it's a little manipulative and it's taking

00:15:37people on a journey.

00:15:38And it's, you know, it is what it is.

00:15:41And so after you do an upbeat song, maybe you would do something that's a little bit more reflective and

00:15:44give people a breather.

00:15:46And I remember during the student awakening, we were having these extended meetings all the time and extended worship nights

00:15:55at the FCF building.

00:15:57And it was funny.

00:15:59It was almost like clockwork that you would have maybe a lull in the night and you could just tell

00:16:03there wasn't a whole lot going on.

00:16:05There wasn't a whole lot of testimonies to be shared.

00:16:07And there was a couple of songs that were just high energy that they would just switch to play out

00:16:13depending on who was leading worship.

00:16:15Justin Rizzo, it was his brother would sing this thing about my dad.

00:16:19He's not angry.

00:16:20He's not disappointed in me.

00:16:21And the whole place would go nuts almost.

00:16:23It would remind you very akin to like something that like Toronto with like holy laughter and joy and all

00:16:29this kind of thing.

00:16:29And people were just like, my dad's not angry.

00:16:31With Corey Asbury, it might have been something like Shekinah Glory Come.

00:16:35People would be, we want the fullness of the spirit.

00:16:38It was like a big thing.

00:16:40It would bring people.

00:16:40But there were certain songs that they could play that would just make the room go nuts.

00:16:45It's almost like having like Sweet Caroline come on at a baseball game or something.

00:16:50Like it just everybody knew what to do.

00:16:52They knew how to play the part.

00:16:53And we're going to hit the, oh, oh, oh, like every time.

00:16:57Like we know what we're doing.

00:17:00So it's interesting to see that, you know, people try to give language to it like Bob Sorge.

00:17:08And that these things can be, that's the thing that people don't realize, I don't think, is that these things

00:17:13can be learned.

00:17:15It's not, it's not a whole other conversation for another day.

00:17:22But you have the phrase anointed thrown out all the time.

00:17:25Like this is anointed.

00:17:26This is that.

00:17:27This is this.

00:17:27And I can't tell you how many times people call something anointed that's just really good tactics is what it

00:17:33is.

00:17:33It's good planning.

00:17:35It's good like knowing how to have a moment.

00:17:39And I tell people that all the time, whenever it comes to like leading worship on a Sunday morning, the

00:17:42most impactful times for people are not the times that I expect usually.

00:17:47But there's a system that I kind of follow with things that, you know, gets predictable outcomes, I guess, predictable

00:17:54results.

00:17:55And I'll have a day when my voice is gone and I feel like I'm having the worst Sunday of

00:18:00my life.

00:18:00And somebody comes up to me in tears at the end.

00:18:02They're like, thank you so much.

00:18:03This was the best Sunday ever.

00:18:04The Lord spoke to me.

00:18:06And then the day that I think that I killed it, you know, everybody's like, nobody says anything.

00:18:10And so it's, yeah, it's such a big topic.

00:18:15Such a big topic.

00:18:16It is.

00:18:17And, you know, to a non-musician, I don't know that they'll even understand anything we're talking about.

00:18:21But if you're a musician, you understand that there are mechanics of the music that excite people.

00:18:28And if you're an entry-level musician, you probably don't know these things.

00:18:33But once you understand how music works and you get into the architecture of music, there are things like, so

00:18:40you mentioned Sweet Caroline.

00:18:41Yeah.

00:18:41Bum, bum, bum.

00:18:43Why does this work?

00:18:44It's because the bum, bum, bum is a response to the previous phrase.

00:18:49Yeah.

00:18:49You sing the phrase, then the response.

00:18:51Yeah.

00:18:51And in music, this is one of the most powerful techniques, phrase response, phrase response.

00:18:56The other thing you mentioned was the fast beat.

00:18:59Yeah.

00:19:00So fast beat, whenever you're listening to music, especially if you've got the bass and the drums, which most NAR

00:19:06people do.

00:19:06We weren't allowed, interestingly, in the cults that I grew up, but with the bass and the drums, that pulsation,

00:19:13it flows through your body.

00:19:15So if you are not – I hate to use the word if you're easily subjected because that's not the

00:19:22case.

00:19:22If you are – what's the word?

00:19:24If the music is resonating with you, your heart starts to match the beat.

00:19:29Yeah, literally resonating with you.

00:19:31Your heart starts to match that beat.

00:19:33So you can make people anxious through the music.

00:19:36And with that, with that anxiety, if you use the right words, you can program that anxiety – you can

00:19:43program the response to anxiousness to the lyrics.

00:19:47And so there's this mechanical strategy that not many people really think about.

00:19:51If you want – if you are an inclusive cult and you want to talk about the bad guys who

00:19:56are the church down the street, well, you talk about the bad guys in the anxiety part of the music

00:20:00when the beat gets really heavy.

00:20:02And at the same time, you can slow the beat down and you can bring people down to a calm.

00:20:08Well, that's when you give the piece of the central figure and what is his doctrine.

00:20:11And when you pick up on this, it's kind of funny because I recognized that while I was in the

00:20:18group, even though I didn't see the destructive power of it.

00:20:22But I recognized it and I started to try to match this because that's how it works.

00:20:27That's the mechanics of the architecture of the music.

00:20:30Well, I was doing the same thing without knowing it.

00:20:32So there are people who unknowingly will manipulate heads just because they recognize the patterns.

00:20:39And it's like – I don't know.

00:20:41It's like a Sudoku puzzle.

00:20:42Once you figure out the patterns, it's exciting to do those patterns, right?

00:20:45So I did this.

00:20:47There are other things, just the chord progressions themselves.

00:20:50So that's leading into a different chord.

00:20:53And that leading to the other chord, it gives you this sense of transition that's powerful.

00:20:59And one of the most powerful transitions, everybody's heard it, it's that same progression but go to a minor instead.

00:21:06It's that bum, bum, bum.

00:21:09When you get that minor chord, now you're getting people to, oh, my gosh, let's pay attention.

00:21:14Let's think through this.

00:21:15That was a big IHOP trip.

00:21:16Big IHOP trip.

00:21:17It's powerful, man.

00:21:19People don't realize.

00:21:20And that's why you have so many minor chords in Christian music, sadly.

00:21:23It's a little odd.

00:21:25I remember after I left the cult, I went to – it was a different church.

00:21:30I won't mention the name of the denomination.

00:21:33But they were playing popular Christian radio music, which I don't listen to.

00:21:38I've actually never listened to it.

00:21:40We weren't allowed to.

00:21:41He loves –

00:21:42Yeah.

00:21:42So we're listening to things that – it's constant progressions, man.

00:21:47It's like – as a musician and I'm playing and I'm like, this is a little bit monotonous.

00:21:52This is exciting one or two times, but to continue doing this over and over and over.

00:21:58What are you doing, man?

00:21:59And I started to pick up on the fact that, oh, I see what they're doing.

00:22:02They're using the power of that progression for that word or that phrase.

00:22:06And then I'm like, no, man.

00:22:08This is wrong.

00:22:10Yeah.

00:22:11It's – talking about the minor, like, it was always the joke.

00:22:17So at IHOP, we used what's called the Nashville number system.

00:22:21Like, all the musicians used it.

00:22:23And it's just a way of being able to quickly, like, communicate where to go spontaneously with music.

00:22:29And it assigns a number to, like, a chord or a note in this scale.

00:22:34So, like, basic music, C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C would be, like, a C scale.

00:22:39So C would be one, D would be two, E would be three, that kind of thing.

00:22:43And so, like, in the key of C, A minor, which is your six, is where we would always end

00:22:48up going during intercession sets and stuff.

00:22:51And it was always a little thumbs-up symbol.

00:22:53That's how we communicated a six to people because you got five fingers.

00:22:56It would be six and seven.

00:22:59And so you would always see, as soon as we were going to do intercession or something intense or there

00:23:03was going to be an altar call or, like, there was something of that nature, you'd always see somebody on

00:23:07the stage, worship leader, somebody throw a little thumbs up behind there.

00:23:10And it was so predictable.

00:23:11And all of a sudden, here would come the big reverb guitar, which is a whole other thing, too.

00:23:17Maybe we'll talk about it here in a second.

00:23:20But it got that intensity and that fervor kind of feeling with the minor keys.

00:23:27And it was very awkward whenever you had a happy major-sounding intercession set.

00:23:34Like, it was kind of off-putting.

00:23:35And there were some people who would do it, but it was almost an unwritten rule that you had to

00:23:39go to the minor whenever we were going to pray serious because minor is serious.

00:23:44But it made me think of some of those songs that you were talking about that are kind of the

00:23:50way that the beats and the key kind of shapes the environment, sets the tone.

00:23:56Misty had this one that was based off of a dream that she had.

00:24:02And I think it was called People Get Ready.

00:24:04I think that's what it was called.

00:24:05Not the Twyla Parris or whoever it was that did it before.

00:24:08But it was this very, like, people get ready.

00:24:13Jesus is coming.

00:24:15He's coming.

00:24:16It would be like a cymbal wash.

00:24:18And like, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do.

00:24:19But she had this thing in this dream where she sees Jesus as the Lion of the tribe of Judah.

00:24:24And she hears this rhythm is what it is.

00:24:27And so, this whole, like, kind of verse section of this song is, I can hear the rhythm of the

00:24:33Lion of the tribe of Judah.

00:24:35And behind it, she's got the drums are going like, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum.

00:24:42And that's, that's that, like, what you're talking about, the anxiety inducing, like, the pensive kind of like, what's going

00:24:48to happen?

00:24:48What's going to happen?

00:24:50And then, and then all of a sudden, she gets, people get ready.

00:24:54And I mean, and Misty had this, like, if you've never listened to Misty before, I encourage you to, like,

00:24:59go just, just experience at one time to go look up one of her, maybe like the Relentless record or

00:25:05something that she had.

00:25:07Because what she was doing was really, I don't want to shortchange it, because it was actually, it was brilliant,

00:25:14to be honest.

00:25:14And she has, she has this quality very similar to, like, a, I don't know exactly how to describe it.

00:25:21I don't know that Gothic is the right word, but, like, this Evanescence kind of, if you're familiar with the

00:25:26band Evanescence, this kind of, like, eerie, high, like, kind of thing that she would do.

00:25:33But she, she had that song, she had another one that she, she called it as in the days of

00:25:38Noah.

00:25:39And she would talk about how it's never rained before, but it was, again, it was that shrilly, it's never

00:25:43rained before.

00:25:45Kind of thing.

00:25:46And then it would be, like, real big.

00:25:47And, and, and, like, there was, like, little melodic parts that she was, she was, she was just, she was

00:25:53very gifted at what she did.

00:25:56But it reminded me of the ba-ba-ba-ba-bum.

00:25:58She had this little part, like, that was, it was just the earworm is what it was.

00:26:02People walking around with their fingers in their ears singing, ba-ba-ba-ba-bum.

00:26:06I don't want to hear the sound.

00:26:08And, like, which we, we maimed a whole lot whenever the Mike Bickle stuff happened.

00:26:12We were people walking around with their fingers in their ears.

00:26:16But, but it was such a, such a unique, unique expression of music at the House of Prayer, I guess,

00:26:23that you don't see anywhere else.

00:26:25But, yeah, I don't know if you have any thoughts about that before I jump to something else.

00:26:30Well, instantly you said, ba-ba-ba-ba-bum, and then the phrase, well, that's even more powerful than the

00:26:36one that I talked about, where there's a, a follow-up and a, you know, a response to the music.

00:26:42Well, the, in the response is the lyrics.

00:26:44So people, they skip that beat, and then they're anticipating the response, and then the response is, like, triple powerful.

00:26:51It's, it's really crazy when you think about it.

00:26:54The only thing that really came to mind while you're talking, I, so I play electric guitar as well.

00:26:59And, in, in the church, the cults that I grew up, you, you really, it was taboo to play any

00:27:07sort of electric instrument.

00:27:08That was instantly devil music, man, because of all the things.

00:27:12Hide the overdrive.

00:27:13Hide the overdrive.

00:27:14You, well, there, I went to some churches that had it, and they might as well have been playing an

00:27:19acoustic because you weren't allowed to even put effects on it, man.

00:27:22It was like, this is the most playing humdrum music.

00:27:26Anyway, after this, I started listening to new worship music in the new churches, and there's another thing they do,

00:27:32powerful, that goes along with what you were saying.

00:27:34You're talking about the drum beat and the progression.

00:27:37Well, a lot of people don't realize this, but they're, who's the good example?

00:27:41Bon Jovi is probably the best example of doing this.

00:27:45You put a lot of distortion on the guitar, and you do the angry strings, which are ones on the

00:27:50top, and you go, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.

00:27:53Well, when you're doing this, it has the same effect on the heart as the beat does with the drums.

00:27:58And you get in that, and you get that anxiety built up, and the power of that is you can

00:28:03actually have a slower song, but in between the beats, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, you're doing this.

00:28:10Well, in that slow song, now you've got the power of that heart rhythm, and that's, I mean, Bon Jovi

00:28:16is excessively popular for this, so you can see how much it works.

00:28:20Do that to a Christian music, and then add your destructive lyrics into it, and it's a combination for disaster,

00:28:26man.

00:28:27Nobody can build a song like a charismatic church.

00:28:30Nobody.

00:28:31If you ever play with a drummer who has never played in charismatic church stuff, they will think that you're

00:28:38insane with the amount of building and layers to dynamics.

00:28:43As you're talking about that, I was thinking about a song that we played this past Sunday.

00:28:47There's this song called All Hell King Jesus, and it's kind of, if people go to church, they've probably heard

00:28:53it before, but it's pretty chill.

00:28:56Pretty chill, I would say.

00:28:57But there's this part after the first chorus where the instrumental kind of picks up, but it's not big dynamic.

00:29:03What ends up happening is the drummer comes in on the ride cymbal going, ting, ting, ting, ting, ting, ting,

00:29:08ting, ting, ting, and everybody else kind of builds it just a little bit, and it gives it enough to

00:29:13start going somewhere.

00:29:14And so there's all these different layers, and that was always a thing that IHOP was just brilliant at, and

00:29:22you started seeing.

00:29:23I really think, I wish that we could track it down, but I really think that that aspect was something

00:29:29that IHOP influenced in the Christian music industry at large, that we started seeing it more at Bethel.

00:29:34Because people are like, even from those circles would make fun of us because of how long we would build

00:29:38stuff.

00:29:38But now you go back and look, and everybody's got five bridges to a song, and everybody's got these big

00:29:43builds and big massive moments.

00:29:46But it's the same thing.

00:29:48It's you're getting an emotional response out of people.

00:29:50Like as you build, build, build, build, build, and then you have the payoff moment, and it's just ecstasy is

00:29:57like what happens in those moments.

00:30:00And I'm curious to hear what, because I teased this a second ago, talking about reverbs and delays and how

00:30:07it's used.

00:30:07So a lot of Christian music now is kind of like the synth pads underneath, the soft synth pads.

00:30:13You've got big reverbs and delays on the electric guitar to the point that you can take an unskilled guitarist

00:30:20and teach them a couple of notes,

00:30:22and they can hit those three notes over the course of the song, and it's big enough because of the

00:30:25reverbs and delays that it builds space.

00:30:27But I'm curious to hear what you think about that as a technique and what you think that it might

00:30:36do.

00:30:38Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

00:30:46reign,

00:30:47charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

00:30:51You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:30:58On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

00:31:06John McKinnon, and others,

00:31:08with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:31:12You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:31:19If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

00:31:25top.

00:31:26And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:31:31watching.

00:31:32On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:31:37I'm laughing because in the first church that we went to after leaving the cult, I brought my music.

00:31:43I started playing different instruments, and I'm playing it pretty much everything that you see here.

00:31:47Not the cello because I didn't have it then, but everything I had here, I would bring two or three

00:31:51to every service and just kind of juggle which ones I'm playing.

00:31:55With me was a guy who was really, really, really good on the rhythm guitar.

00:32:00Probably one of the best rhythm guitarists I've played with.

00:32:04And it was just me and him for a while on the guitars, and then there was a drummer, there

00:32:07was a pianist, and an organ player.

00:32:11So that was the band, basically.

00:32:13And we were really, really good.

00:32:15Well, this new guy shows up one Sunday, and he is an electric guitarist.

00:32:20And they said, John, we want this guy to play with you.

00:32:23And he played with us, I don't know, it was probably three or four Sundays, and I'm just like, you

00:32:30know, I don't know that this is really adding much to it, but the people enjoy it.

00:32:36And in one of the conversations I had with the real guitarist later, he said, John, have you watched that

00:32:41guy play?

00:32:41And I said, no, but I've heard it, and it's a little bit monotonous.

00:32:44And he says, watch him next Sunday.

00:32:47So I go back next Sunday, and we're playing in B-flat.

00:32:52And this guy, no, this guy is holding the key of D and going, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun,

00:32:59the whole song, man.

00:33:02And here's the funny part.

00:33:04We would change to a minor.

00:33:05We would change to a major.

00:33:06We would change to a flat.

00:33:08It's still D.

00:33:09And I'm like, how do people not know that this is not even in the key we're playing in?

00:33:15Well, he had so much dang reverb, you couldn't tell.

00:33:19He had so much reverb.

00:33:20And so as far as manipulation, I guess that's manipulation in the opposite direction, because real musicians are like, no,

00:33:28this is painful.

00:33:29And that's how I was.

00:33:29This is painful.

00:33:30What is happening here?

00:33:32But, you know, back to another point that you made I wanted to talk about.

00:33:38You mentioned an earworm.

00:33:40And that's a funny phrase for me, because I grew up playing in Georgia, and that's a common phrase, an

00:33:46earworm.

00:33:47To those who don't know what this is, it's something that it gets in your ear and gets in your

00:33:51head.

00:33:51Is that a bluegrass-y phrase?

00:33:53I don't know.

00:33:53It's a bluegrass-y phrase.

00:33:54Once it gets in your head, you can't get it out.

00:33:56The music is so appealing, and the phrase is so appealing.

00:33:59Well, the power of the earworm in Christian music is unbelievable.

00:34:05You can take phrases like, and I'm just going to make something up off the fly, but you can say

00:34:10something like, I know I feel it.

00:34:14I won't let go.

00:34:15I'm stepping on faith because you told me so.

00:34:18That's a highly repeatable, rhymeable.

00:34:21If you add all of the dynamics that I'm mentioning, that's pretty good, right?

00:34:25And I'm pretty good off the fly sometimes, but if you think about what that's saying, I know I feel

00:34:31it.

00:34:32I won't let it go.

00:34:33It's emphasizing the feeling over the doctrine.

00:34:36If you really break this down, this is a really bad phrase I just invented, so I should go to

00:34:42hell for this phrase.

00:34:43I'm stepping in faith because you told me so.

00:34:46Well, this emphasizes the feeling over the doctrine, the inside voice, whatever it is, your conscience, your imagination, whatever it

00:34:57is, that is what told you.

00:34:59You can't prove that God told you this.

00:35:01Well, to the audience who's listening, they want to repeat this once it's an earworm in their ear, and they

00:35:08start seeing God talking to them in ways that God is not talking to them.

00:35:12They might meet, I don't know, somebody on the street in the grocery store who says something like, you probably

00:35:18shouldn't yell at your kids, and God spoke to me and told me I need to be nicer to my

00:35:23kids.

00:35:23I mean, stupid stuff like that that people are doing, and it's because of the earworm in the music, and

00:35:28they don't even realize it.

00:35:29Yeah.

00:35:30I can't tell you how many times, good and bad, in my life that I've had something happen and a

00:35:36worship song come back into my head just because some of those things are so catchy.

00:35:40And what's interesting, too, is you have to think about the environment that the music's happening in as well is

00:35:48a very important part of it, that whenever people, for whatever the reasons, thinking outside the cult world for a

00:35:55second, whatever reason a person shows up to a church on a Sunday morning, that influences how receptive they are

00:36:04to things.

00:36:04And so, if they're showing up to your church on a Sunday because they believe that it's a safe sanctuary,

00:36:09a place to where they can find solace and peace, then they're going to be much more receptive to whatever

00:36:18you're saying because they're going to go in with that mindset.

00:36:23You know, in charismatic circles, I hope this gets a rouse out of you.

00:36:28Surely this is something that y'all had, too, that one of the big things is a preacher would come

00:36:33up and go, are you expecting tonight?

00:36:36Are you expecting?

00:36:37What's your expectation?

00:36:39And that's another tool that's used that there's this, if everybody in the room is convinced that God is going

00:36:47to come down and meet them, after we do our 20-minute build and we get to that big payoff

00:36:53moment, they're expecting something and something is going to happen.

00:36:58And that's the moment that I have to look at things that Mike Bickle said about Hamburger Helper and be

00:37:04like, yeah, some of that is fake.

00:37:07It's because people want to feel that.

00:37:08And that's not even necessarily bad either, that people want to have a good feeling in a moment.

00:37:14And I think about that now in post-cult life of how much coping I did in worship services because

00:37:20it allowed room for those big emotions, whether that was my anxiety, whether that was my anger.

00:37:28Whatever it might be, if I was down and depressed, man, you give me four on the floor and a

00:37:33happy song and I'm feeling depressed, man, and that will turn around my week.

00:37:38Whenever I was growing up, it's a little harder now because I know the tricks.

00:37:41But yeah, it's so influential and I can't remember how I journeyed to this spot, but there we are.

00:37:49But I was going to say about reverbs and delays, I think it's soothing, I think, is what it is.

00:37:55It creates so much space and you feel enveloped and like, yeah, it just feels good is what it is.

00:38:03There's nothing like a preacher doing an altar call and having a little atmosphere behind them.

00:38:07It just sets the mood.

00:38:09Yeah, and like you said, it's not that destructive to say that you're anticipating or expecting.

00:38:14In fact, I always, whenever I do listen to Christian music that is comfortable to me and doesn't trigger me,

00:38:21it's usually the old, old music from the old song books because in general, these people were under inspiration.

00:38:28They were writing songs, not as a technique.

00:38:31That's really where I have a problem.

00:38:33If you write a song as a technique or a manipulation tool, I'm just, you're evil.

00:38:38I'm just going to say it like that, you're evil.

00:38:40But I listen to those music, those songs from those old song books and they don't trigger me so badly

00:38:46and I'm familiar with them.

00:38:49But combine that, what you just said, the expectation, you can add that into the music.

00:38:54We're expecting the word's going to fall today or, you know, whatever is the phrase and build it up in

00:39:00that square.

00:39:01Sweet Caroline, boom, boom, boom, with that anticipation.

00:39:04Well, you build the anticipation, then the expectation of the Lord.

00:39:08Then the speaker comes and the speaker has the rhema or the spoken word or whatever he claims or she

00:39:16claims that they have from God.

00:39:18Well, you have just programmed the people that you're expecting the thing to come.

00:39:21Now the speaker comes out and he has introduced the thing to come is not him.

00:39:27It's a divine being speaking through his or her mouth.

00:39:30Well, that progression, that's an architectural disaster.

00:39:34You have really programmed the people to open up in ways that they should never open up their minds.

00:39:40And once they do, you hijack their minds.

00:39:42And that's what I see happening in not only the music, but in music is just one aspect of manipulation.

00:39:48But in the music, they're doing it in other techniques, verbal.

00:39:53Even I've seen like some of the I was in one church and even the posters on the wall as

00:39:58you're walking in the foyer to get into the building.

00:40:01Even that was a manipulation technique.

00:40:04And is it bad?

00:40:05Not all.

00:40:06But some of it, especially when the leader has the spoken word, the rhema, this nonsense, that's evil, man.

00:40:12I've had many times after leading worship that I hear a preacher say something.

00:40:18Because if you talk to like a preacher, like behind closed doors and stuff, they'll tell you that kind of

00:40:25the worship leader's responsibility, maybe not all of them, but a lot of them will, that the worship leader's responsibility

00:40:30is to prepare people's hearts for the word kind of thing.

00:40:33Like that's, and that's how they see it.

00:40:35And unfortunately, it's kind of right.

00:40:37Like you're saying, like it does, it puts people, and I think it's why a lot of times we don't

00:40:42end sets before somebody preaches a sermon with a dance party.

00:40:45Like that's usually not how you do it.

00:40:47You might end the service with a dance party, but you're not going to do that right before the preacher

00:40:52comes up.

00:40:53And so it's going to be more reflective and calm and focused.

00:40:56And that puts people in a place to be more open.

00:41:00And I've heard preachers say things in moments that I look around the room and everybody's nodding in agreement.

00:41:06And I'm like, do you guys hear what he's saying?

00:41:09Like, are you thinking logically right now?

00:41:11Like, he just said that he knows that this is certain for sure, 100% the answer.

00:41:17This is wildly, widely theologically debated, and he's certain on this.

00:41:22And like, are you guys listening?

00:41:25Like, what's going on?

00:41:27But I see that happen all the time in local church context and even in Kansas City.

00:41:35I mean, Mike, like you go back and listen to the things that Mike said.

00:41:38Like there was Freudian slips all the time and things that he would say that like now in hindsight, you're

00:41:44like, my gosh, he was telling us exactly what's happening.

00:41:49And we just couldn't see it.

00:41:53But yeah, and there's the music, the lyrics, it's conditioning.

00:41:58As you're talking, this is a little bit of a bunny trail again, but there was another chorus that Misty

00:42:03would sing.

00:42:04And I remember it popping my head all the time.

00:42:07It was, you owe me nothing.

00:42:08I deserve hell.

00:42:10You owe me nothing, but you've given me mercy.

00:42:14And that does something like, you know, people can have their, and I know the YouTube comments section loves me

00:42:21because I say a lot of heretical things.

00:42:25And I love you guys too.

00:42:26It's no hard feelings.

00:42:27But whenever you have somebody sing over and over that they deserve hell, that you owe me nothing, I deserve

00:42:36hell.

00:42:36Like it does something to your psyche.

00:42:38And I think with where I'm at on my journey, I think those doctrines like original sin and total depravity

00:42:45and stuff, it has the tendency to do the same things that these mind control type things do.

00:42:51It convinces you that you're a little peon, you're a little worm, a little, your excrement is what you are.

00:42:58And whenever you start to believe that, you start to treat yourself that way.

00:43:05And whenever you treat yourself poorly, like Jesus himself says, love your neighbor as you love yourself.

00:43:12If you can't love yourself, then how in the world are you going to love somebody?

00:43:15And I think that that's like one of our, sorry, this is my sermonette.

00:43:18I have one every week.

00:43:19It just comes at some moment.

00:43:21But that's whenever we look at like empathy, like toxic empathy is like the big thing right now that people

00:43:26want to talk about.

00:43:27But like if you can't show compassion towards yourself and be loving towards yourself because you think that you deserve

00:43:33hell and that you don't get anything, you're a piece of junk is what you are.

00:43:38Whenever you think that about yourself, it's really easy to think that about other people.

00:43:43So whenever you see bad things happening to other people, you're like, yeah, but they deserve that.

00:43:48That's what they deserve.

00:43:49And that's whenever we lose our humanity in those moments, I think.

00:43:53But that's what this music does.

00:43:55And whenever you get convinced of those things that you do deserve hell, it makes you dependent on these messengers

00:44:02of God is what it is.

00:44:04Like I deserve hell.

00:44:06They have what I need.

00:44:07I have to stay here.

00:44:08And those were the fear tactics that were used by Mike and others in backhanded ways of he would always

00:44:17give the speech.

00:44:18And I've said this a million times like a broken record.

00:44:20He would talk about, you know, some people do this prayer movement stuff for a little bit and then they

00:44:23burn out and they move on.

00:44:25And some people last a decade and they burn out and they move on.

00:44:28And he's like, but God's looking for the ones who will do it for decades, who believe the promises.

00:44:32And he would say, you know, you can go and be in a local church and this and that.

00:44:36But we want the people who believe the promises.

00:44:38Like it was this elite thing and you felt like if you walked away from it, that like sometimes I

00:44:46think the equivalency is like you almost thought like would I die if I walked away?

00:44:51And that's kind of like the internal stuff that would happen.

00:44:54And I got way serious way, way too quick.

00:44:56But that's the power of the music.

00:44:59It really is.

00:45:00Yeah, and I'm going to join you in the comment feeds.

00:45:03You can slaughter me too in the comment feeds if you want.

00:45:06But I fully agree with you.

00:45:07I've mentioned this to some extent.

00:45:10And people, you know, people try to nail me down.

00:45:13Are you Calvinist?

00:45:15Are you not?

00:45:16And I'm just –

00:45:19Darrell Bock Yeah, you're not going to figure me out, man.

00:45:22But here's the thing.

00:45:23I've mentioned this before.

00:45:24As it relates to the total depravity doctrine, there are people who say that's scriptural.

00:45:29That's absolutely scriptural.

00:45:30And they'll rattle off all of the scriptures that I already know.

00:45:33I already know this.

00:45:34It's in my head.

00:45:35But I know the other scriptures that take it out of the ballpark of what you're trying to say.

00:45:40That's really the difference.

00:45:41If you're in one mindset, it's like you're in this box and you can't see outside of the box.

00:45:47So, not to get onto a preacher's high platform because I'm definitely not a preacher.

00:45:53You go talk to your pastor about this stuff.

00:45:55But most of the passages that are being used for this, remember, there is a timeline in the Gospels.

00:46:02Jesus comes to earth.

00:46:03All of the children of Israel had been under this – it was bigger than a contract, but it was

00:46:10this contractual agreement was part of the Old Covenant.

00:46:13And the contractual agreement said, if you do these things, I'll give these blessings.

00:46:17If you don't, you'll get these curses.

00:46:19Well, they went down the wrong path and they got the curses, right?

00:46:23So, Jesus is – when he's saying things that really support what they're trying to say with total depravity, he's

00:46:29speaking to people that were in total depravity.

00:46:32It's not saying that you – I've been in a church that they actually targeted the four-year-olds and

00:46:39said they're totally deprived, they're evil.

00:46:41You know, it's just awful doctrine.

00:46:43And I've mentioned before, if you keep pounding on people like this and you keep talking about how bad they

00:46:49are, everything that Brantley just said, that's going to happen.

00:46:52You're going to hate yourself.

00:46:53You're going to hate the people around you.

00:46:55Anybody who's not in your church, you absolutely hate those.

00:46:58I mean, there's no limit to how bad this is.

00:47:01And you don't even train a dog like this.

00:47:04If you're constantly telling the dog, bad boy, bad boy, well, the dog is going to be a bad boy.

00:47:09I mean, that's how dogs work.

00:47:11That's how humans work.

00:47:12You can't raise humans like this.

00:47:14To some extent, I understand the doctrine as it relates to adults.

00:47:19If you're an adult and you're trying to understand the Scripture, at least do it correctly and apply the passages

00:47:25correctly, those that were applied to Israel and those that are applied to the Gentiles.

00:47:30But if you go beyond that, just think through the fact that as an adult, you can decipher between those

00:47:37two because it takes a broad understanding of the Bible to do that.

00:47:41But to a teenager, to somebody who's just barely learning about the world around them, how are they going to

00:47:49do this in the way that an adult can?

00:47:51They're going to be depressed.

00:47:53And I know this because I fell into that category.

00:47:56I've been depressed.

00:47:57I've been there, man.

00:47:58I know how this works.

00:47:59And that's another part of the reason I'm triggered by the music.

00:48:03You find that language in the music, but in such a beat and a chord progression, they get stuck in

00:48:08your head all day.

00:48:09And it is gloom and doom and, oh, I hate the world.

00:48:12I hate myself.

00:48:14It's one step away from there's this category, this genre of rock that's like suicide rock.

00:48:20It's for those that are just so depressed they can barely survive.

00:48:25That's what it is to me.

00:48:26It's like you're listening to suicide music when you do this, man.

00:48:29Don't do this.

00:48:30Instead of talking about depravity, you talk about ways that you can be excited about Christianity, excited about the world.

00:48:37And you'll be less triggering to those people who are actually suffering.

00:48:40Yeah.

00:48:41It gets so nihilistic so quickly.

00:48:44Like with IHOP, it was the eschatology.

00:48:47Like if – and it was – there was a little bit of split between people.

00:48:54But the present day – there was so much talked about like eternal mindset and stuff.

00:48:58But the present day and the present moment didn't matter a whole lot because we had eternity.

00:49:04And then outside of that, like a lot of them believed that God was going to destroy the world we're

00:49:10sitting on right now.

00:49:12And that he was going to create a new world.

00:49:14And so that there was no – there was no need for stewardship.

00:49:18Like it's talked about in Genesis 1 of tending and taking care of the earth and keeping the garden and

00:49:22all that kind of thing.

00:49:24It wasn't until I stepped out of NAR circles that I started hearing Christians talk about ecology and like the

00:49:35ecosystems and taking care of the planet as Christian work.

00:49:39Like that was just like something that was so – and it's because like you live in this way that

00:49:45you think everything's going to be destroyed and everything's going to end.

00:49:48And then there's no point in the here and now except like the short-term gains.

00:49:57I had to get to the point in my life where I had to put all of that stuff on

00:50:03the shelf because it was – it drove me for so long, the eternal mindset.

00:50:08Misty had an album called Eternity.

00:50:10That's what it was.

00:50:12Eternity, eternal song.

00:50:15It's so like – I mean this kind of – I mean it goes deep and the music's right there

00:50:18with it.

00:50:19And that's the thing.

00:50:19It reinforces it.

00:50:21But I had to get to a point to where I put that stuff on a shelf because I realized

00:50:26I wasn't living life is what was happening.

00:50:28I was so worried about the future.

00:50:30I was so worried about my past mistakes that I couldn't live in the moment.

00:50:37I couldn't be present for my family.

00:50:39I couldn't be present for friends.

00:50:40I couldn't be supportive of anybody.

00:50:42I was barely making it myself.

00:50:45And so I had to come to this conclusion that I was like, you know, heaven and hell can be

00:50:52what it is.

00:50:52Like I know that I am trying to love best I can.

00:50:57I'm trying to follow Jesus best I can.

00:50:59And if he sends me to hell for that, he sends me to hell for that.

00:51:03Like that's what's going to happen.

00:51:05I'm not going to spend time worrying about it because fear doesn't do anything.

00:51:08If you live in a cult for any amount of time, you realize fear is such a powerful tool.

00:51:12And so I had to set that fear aside.

00:51:14And even with heaven, I'm like, man, like if I want to live life now and I want to make

00:51:19the world around me as good as I can here and now.

00:51:22Like in eternity, eternity be damned.

00:51:27Like that's kind of where I've had to live my life.

00:51:30But doing that has helped me reprogram my brain, rewire my brain into a healthier spot to where now I

00:51:37can have conversations about this stuff.

00:51:39We can talk about hell and depravity and all these things.

00:51:42And my nervous system doesn't freak out.

00:51:45I had a huge freak out.

00:51:49Man, this was probably 10 years ago, something like that, in a conversation about hell with someone.

00:51:55But growing up in NAR and Pentecostal holiness environments and stuff, like hell was held over your head all the

00:52:01time.

00:52:02And I eventually had to get to a spot where, you know, it is what it is.

00:52:05Whatever it is, it is.

00:52:07And there's nothing I can do to change that.

00:52:09But it didn't do me any good to live in fear of that.

00:52:13Darrell Bock Yeah, absolutely.

00:52:16And what you're talking about, basically, is you're coming to a realization that there has to be balance.

00:52:21Martin Luther, I've mentioned this before, and I still need to go find his exact verbiage, but he says something

00:52:28to the effect of they preach hell in these churches that we left.

00:52:31And he's talking about the Catholic Church.

00:52:33And he's essentially describing they're using it as a weapon.

00:52:36And he says, I don't have a single member in my congregation that wants to go there.

00:52:40So why would I want to preach on something for a people who aren't wanting to hear more about it?

00:52:46Let's instead preach about heaven.

00:52:48Let's talk about heavenly things.

00:52:50And I look at that, and I think it's so odd that the Protestant Church has actually gone in reverse.

00:52:56There's so many ways that they resemble what Martin Luther was crying out against.

00:53:01And that's just – we could probably do another podcast on just simply that.

00:53:05But the music itself, I feel – so we have probably scared people listening to music at this point.

00:53:12I feel that we should probably balance that scale because what –

00:53:16I just need to listen to some Doc Watson.

00:53:18Everybody needs a little bluegrass in their life.

00:53:20Yeah.

00:53:21You know, Steve Martin, he says, there's not a way that you can play a song with a banjo and

00:53:26make it sound angry.

00:53:27That's true.

00:53:28He's talking about the techniques, man.

00:53:30And you can really change people's perspective with music and how it's played and even the instruments you play.

00:53:35But – so let's do this.

00:53:37Let's talk about a bit about the healthy things that music has in it.

00:53:42So you and I, we struggle more than the average person because we're musicians and because we're in a destructive

00:53:49cult.

00:53:49We actually have it worse.

00:53:50And I don't know if people realize that.

00:53:52But we do.

00:53:53And it's especially worse because I think you and I both are also empaths.

00:53:57So where everybody else is down here on the scale of this was torture, we're so far beyond that I

00:54:04get everything that you're saying.

00:54:05And, you know, to the point, if you're bringing music in a healthy way, even if you're using techniques of

00:54:14manipulation in the music – and manipulation is probably the wrong word in this case – music can be used

00:54:20to comfort.

00:54:22You can go to church.

00:54:23You can be comforted.

00:54:24You can feel blessed.

00:54:25You can feel secure.

00:54:27You can bring in – you can use the same techniques, and you can have the entire people in this

00:54:33blessing and security atmosphere before the sermon comes.

00:54:38That's a way that you could do the same exact things for good, not for bad.

00:54:42You could do it for inspiration.

00:54:44You could inspire people to do good to other people.

00:54:47And they could leave the church, and they could go help the community.

00:54:50They could help the people in the other churches.

00:54:53They could even help the people who won't go to church.

00:54:55That's an inspiration.

00:54:57That's something that you could do.

00:54:58Then the sermon could actually augment this.

00:55:01As Christians, this is the way that we should live our lives.

00:55:04That's a way that you could use the same exact techniques for good.

00:55:08And there's so many other ways that you could do – expressing devotion.

00:55:11You could get people more dedicated to God.

00:55:14There's so many things that you could do that is healthy using the same exact techniques, but injecting your nonsensical

00:55:22doctrine

00:55:22and all of the different things that you're doing to take the leadership and put them way up here above

00:55:29the people.

00:55:29It's just wrong.

00:55:31So this is where a lot of my thought process goes now whenever planning worship sets.

00:55:37And a lot of it's very temporal in the sense that whatever's happening in the community at the moment, a

00:55:45lot of times will influence the types of stuff that we sing.

00:55:49Whether that's like a national current event or the church that I'm currently at right now, there's a strong military

00:55:54presence.

00:55:56And it's not a fun time to be in the military with all the jerking around that's happening right now.

00:56:00And the government shutdown that happened, that was a very interesting thing in that church because all of them were

00:56:07government.

00:56:07If they weren't military, they're civilian contractors and such.

00:56:10And so I think it was good to sing a song everybody probably knows is Goodness of God.

00:56:17All my life you've been faithful.

00:56:18All my life you've been so, so good.

00:56:20To remind ourselves that God takes care of us and that He does.

00:56:24He keeps us in His hand.

00:56:26He doesn't let us go and cares for us as His children.

00:56:30And to sing something like that is positive, I think, because it does.

00:56:35It gives people hope.

00:56:36It gives people security.

00:56:37Security, on the flip side of that, it made me think as planning stuff.

00:56:42Like there's times whenever I've been in worship services where I may have not agreed with the message at all.

00:56:51But I'm there as a paid person to get back up and do some music after the preacher preaches a

00:56:59sermon.

00:56:59And even if I think what he said was destructive and harmful and everything else,

00:57:03I do take solace because sometimes those songs that I can sing afterwards leave more of an impression than the

00:57:10sermon did.

00:57:11And we can sing things that are a little bit better.

00:57:16I'll leave it at that.

00:57:17We'll say that leave people with a good taste in their mouth.

00:57:22To know that I think I'm trying to think like the end goal varies week to week and experience to

00:57:32experience of what you want people to feel.

00:57:33But whenever I end a service, I always end it with a benediction still to this day.

00:57:38I picked that up in my Methodist circles that I ran in where I just do the Lord bless you

00:57:42and keep you, make his face shine upon you, be gracious to you, and give you peace.

00:57:46And go in peace and be at peace, and we'll see you next Sunday.

00:57:49That's how I end almost every Sunday.

00:57:51And I look around the room whenever I do that.

00:57:55And as I say, I usually open my eyes.

00:57:58I'm like, go in peace, be at peace.

00:58:00And I look around the room, and I see peace on people's face.

00:58:02And that's what people need right now.

00:58:06There's so much turmoil in the world for people to feel settled.

00:58:10And you look around, and these aren't charismatic people that I'm doing stuff with now.

00:58:14These are Baptist folks.

00:58:15And I look around the room, and all of them have their eyes closed and slight grins on their face

00:58:20kind of thing.

00:58:21They just feel at peace in the moment.

00:58:24And that's the good for me.

00:58:27I still can't personally like you.

00:58:28I still can't listen to Christian music a whole lot without just being angry, if I'm being honest.

00:58:33Like, that's where it sends you into a place of anger.

00:58:35But these, just like any art, it's a tool given to us by God to help us experience God, to

00:58:45help us experience beauty, to help us feel emotions and process emotions, and to cope.

00:58:52And I think for a lot of musicians, at least for us privately, like music is a huge coping tool.

00:58:58Be able to bang on the guitar for a little bit, scream at the top of my lungs, and sing.

00:59:03It helps us process, and it helps us make sense of things.

00:59:07And I think that we get to bring other people into that.

00:59:12And that's the gift of music, is whether they can play it or sing it or whatever, we can bring

00:59:17them into that moment, and hopefully something could happen.

00:59:20Absolutely.

00:59:22You know, I struggle with the music.

00:59:24I've mentioned that, actually, a few times.

00:59:26But there are things that a lot of people don't recognize because of the music style.

00:59:32One of the things that I like doing is I love to listen to Jack Johnson.

00:59:37And believe it or not, his Curious George album is my favorite.

00:59:41Because it is near to impossible to get angry while you're listening to a Jack Johnson song.

00:59:45And at the same time, he energizes you.

00:59:48He inspires you.

00:59:50You can actually hear more of God in a Jack Johnson song than you can half the songs I grew

00:59:55up singing in the church.

00:59:57And to the people who – I know that there's a subset of our listeners who are going to comment

01:00:02on what I just said and say,

01:00:04but he doesn't sing about Jesus.

01:00:05You can't say this.

01:00:06He's not singing about God.

01:00:07The problem that I have is the music is just one aspect that has done this.

01:00:12But through the music, the sermons, the literature, the posters on the wall, all of the manipulation techniques.

01:00:19Banners.

01:00:20Banners.

01:00:20They have so disconnected the people from the real God that they will say things like this.

01:00:27And I'll never forget the moment as I was leaving, as I was preparing my mind to leave from the

01:00:32Branham cult.

01:00:33I kept getting these songs.

01:00:34I'm a songwriter, too.

01:00:35I kept getting these songs over and over, and one of them, many of the phrases were like – many

01:00:39of the songs were to the same theme.

01:00:41But one of the phrases was, God didn't come to save the saved.

01:00:45He came to save the lost.

01:00:47And I was actually thinking about the body of people, how charged they were against outsiders, how charged they were

01:00:54against other Christians.

01:00:56And at that point in time, I didn't recognize that it was a manipulation causing it.

01:01:01I just thought the people had gone nuts.

01:01:03But now that I'm looking into the music, the music is doing it.

01:01:08It's supercharging you against people who aren't of the same mindset to the extent that if somebody comes into the

01:01:14church who doesn't believe like you, you're immediately offended.

01:01:18Get out of here.

01:01:18You're not part of us.

01:01:20Get out of here.

01:01:21And that's not where church is.

01:01:23Church is not to forsake those who don't believe like you.

01:01:26It's actually to inspire them to come and learn more about the God and the doctrines that you believe.

01:01:32And if you truly believe those doctrines and believe that that's the right way and God's working on them, if

01:01:37you believe that and you believe that God is all-powerful, God will change their heart.

01:01:41It's not your job to scorn them and to change.

01:01:44But I look back at the music, and even the music is scornful.

01:01:48So that's why I have a huge problem listening to it, and that's why I like Jack Johnson.

01:01:53So go get the Curious George album, and you'll love me for it.

01:01:57Amen.

01:01:57Thank you for doing this, man.

01:01:59Absolutely.

01:01:59Anytime.

01:02:00Well, if you enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

01:02:04You can find us at william-branham.org.

01:02:06For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to

01:02:12the NAR.

01:02:13Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:02:42Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:03:12Available on Amazon, Kindle.

01:03:16Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:03:20Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:03:22Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

01:03:23Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

Worship Music Manipulation: When Emotion Replaces Discernment | Brantley Smith | Episode 535

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