- 3 days ago
John explores the disturbing evolution of “holiness” from its biblical meaning to the authoritarian distortion seen in Pentecostal and Apostolic movements today. Tracing the thread from Frank Sandford and John Alexander Dowie through Charles Fox Parham, William Seymour, Chuck Smith, and John Wimber, he exposes how the theology of holiness became linked to pride, hierarchy, and unquestioned leadership. Through this historical lens, John reveals how the New Apostolic Reformation’s obsession with “apostolic authority” mirrors ancient Gnostic elitism—redefining holiness as group loyalty instead of Christlike transformation.
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of why so many modern movements repeat the same pattern of control, abuse, and spiritual manipulation, and how true Christian holiness—rooted in humility and service—stands in stark contrast to the self-exalting “Moses models” that dominate today’s revivalist culture.
00:00 Introduction
01:04 Why cults attack those who leave
03:13 What “holiness” means inside destructive groups
06:07 Growing up in Branham’s tabernacle
09:03 The pride of being “the holy elite”
10:12 Tracing the roots of Pentecostal holiness
12:11 From Gnosticism to Azusa Street
13:06 Frank Sanford and British Israelism
17:18 How “apostle” was redefined into hierarchy
19:49 John Alexander Dowie’s empire and corruption
23:01 Charles Parham and the birth of Pentecostalism
27:54 When holiness became submission to leaders
32:02 Modern examples: Mike Bickle and IHOPKC
33:46 Chuck Smith’s Moses model of leadership
38:12 John Wimber and Kingdom Theology
43:01 Miracles, power, and false holiness
47:52 How “apostolic authority” silenced accountability
51:19 Why cult holiness is about belonging, not transformation
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Listeners will gain a deeper understanding of why so many modern movements repeat the same pattern of control, abuse, and spiritual manipulation, and how true Christian holiness—rooted in humility and service—stands in stark contrast to the self-exalting “Moses models” that dominate today’s revivalist culture.
00:00 Introduction
01:04 Why cults attack those who leave
03:13 What “holiness” means inside destructive groups
06:07 Growing up in Branham’s tabernacle
09:03 The pride of being “the holy elite”
10:12 Tracing the roots of Pentecostal holiness
12:11 From Gnosticism to Azusa Street
13:06 Frank Sanford and British Israelism
17:18 How “apostle” was redefined into hierarchy
19:49 John Alexander Dowie’s empire and corruption
23:01 Charles Parham and the birth of Pentecostalism
27:54 When holiness became submission to leaders
32:02 Modern examples: Mike Bickle and IHOPKC
33:46 Chuck Smith’s Moses model of leadership
38:12 John Wimber and Kingdom Theology
43:01 Miracles, power, and false holiness
47:52 How “apostolic authority” silenced accountability
51:19 Why cult holiness is about belonging, not transformation
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and today I'm going to be talking about the subject of holiness,
00:47which I'm going to actually cover this one by myself. One of the things that I've learned
00:52in working with all of the people who have exited all of these cult groups that we share the stories
00:59every Friday on the Leaving the Message podcast and on the website, I've learned that whenever
01:06a person leaves a high-control group, like I myself did, the first thing that happens is that
01:13the group will begin to attack the character of the person leaving. It doesn't matter the
01:18circumstances of their leaving. It doesn't matter even if the person is leaving to remain a Christian,
01:24which my family and I did, they will attack the character of the person leaving as though they
01:30are not Christian, as though they're reprobate. And so whenever you begin talking about the subject
01:36we're getting into today, which is holiness, the cults will often attack the people who are leaving,
01:43and so it makes it very complicated when I try to bring this subject up with other hosts and guests
01:49on the podcast. I don't want the cults to be attacking the people who work with me or who share
01:55their stories because their stories are their stories. It's not something that really, in my opinion,
02:01it's not something that should be open to attack. So I'm going to do my best at covering this one by
02:07myself today. I will preface this by this statement here. I am by no means a Bible teacher or scholar.
02:17I never intended to be, never want to be. It's just not my calling. It's not something that I do.
02:24I do enjoy history. I'm fascinated by history, and I think that a lot of people could really learn a lot
02:31from history if they would just take the time to study it. However, there are some topics that we're
02:38going to get into today that actually does require a little bit of Bible discussion. And so I'm going to
02:45try to frame it in such a way that it's not me really teaching. We're just going to mention some
02:51passages. And if you want to study or if you want to ask your pastor about it, feel free to go and ask
02:57the pastor what it means. Interestingly, you can often find whether or not you are in a destructive
03:03group, by the way, that they answer the questions for the passages that I'll be bringing up.
03:09But on the subject of holiness, there is a distinct difference between what is considered holy today
03:19in many of these NAR, charismatic, Pentecostal groups, and what the Bible and what Christianity
03:28would consider holiness. So when I'm using the term holiness, if you're listening and you're
03:33a researcher who's interested in these groups, understand that I'm not talking about actual
03:39scriptural, biblical holiness. I'm talking about what these groups have framed as holiness and what
03:47they're teaching and instructing the people as holiness. And that differs from group to group.
03:52So it's not something that I can paint with a white brush. But instead, what I intend to do
03:58is I want to go to the history behind the movement so that you can watch how this word,
04:05this holiness, how it kind of developed and changed and morphed over time to become what it is today.
04:13And if you look at the standards that are set today, people who are on the outside looking in,
04:18they think, oh my gosh, what is this mess? You go to, say, for instance, the Roy's report.
04:24You go to the Roy's report and you find all of these scoundrels who are just abusing the people
04:32who are under them. And with authoritarian control, they're abusing their positions of leadership,
04:38usually for purposes of money or sex or who knows what all else. And if you understand the difference
04:45between that type of movement and Christianity, and you're on the outside looking in, you think,
04:51well, they have no concept of what is holiness. But from a person who is on the inside, which I was,
04:58I can tell you that what they're teaching and framing as holiness is completely different.
05:04It is by no means the same. And today I want to get into that. But rather than just talk about the
05:11scriptural differences, because I'm not a scholar or a pastor, I want to talk historically of what the
05:17differences are. And I think people might get a better concept, you know, a better way to understand
05:23it. And since I'm doing it by myself, and I'm doing it from the history, it's not very easy for the
05:31cults to attack the people who are working with me, which they would. If I brought this subject up,
05:36this would be opening the door for attack of all of the people working with me.
05:41So we're handling this a little bit differently than usual. Hopefully it comes out enjoyable and
05:48people can follow along and kind of understand what is the difference between cult holiness and
05:55what is the difference between Christianity and what the Bible teaches. Now, I, as I said,
06:01I'm not a teacher, I'm not a Bible scholar, and I have no intention to ever become a theologian or
06:07pastor or anything like this. But when I left the Branham cult, I was, my grandfather was the
06:13pastor at William Branham's Branham Tabernacle for almost 50 years, I believe it was. I grew up in
06:20that mindset. And so I grew up in really the home church for what much of, what much of the NAR can
06:28claim as his historical lineage. That's why you find people like Benny Hinn and Todd Bentley, Bill Johnson,
06:36many of the leaders of the NAR today will reference William Branham to referencing my grandfather's
06:41church and their concept of holiness. I can tell you exactly where it comes from because I was in
06:48this. But when I left this, I read the Bible over and over and over and over again to try to wash all
06:57this out. There were several things that really hit me. I've mentioned this a few times with the hosts that I
07:22have on the podcast, but there were things that hit me as vastly different from the Christian worldview
07:29and the cult worldview. But as it relates to holiness, which we're getting into today,
07:37the main concept to understand is that Christian holiness is something that is progressive and it
07:45transitions in a good way. There are several passages that talk about this. Second Corinthians,
07:52I think it's three, it talks about being transformed into the same image of, you know, glory. In other
07:59words, Christ came, he taught the people how they should live, how they should act, what they should become.
08:05And we're all to be transformed into that image. Yet in today's world, we see transformation into
08:12something else. Whenever you think of, um, fruits of the spirit is a good example. When you're thinking
08:19of fruits of the spirit, Galatians talks about love, joy, peace, et cetera. And you look at the
08:25Christians today and look how within their groups, they will, you know, emit these fruits of the spirit.
08:34You can see peace, love, joy, happiness. Let's say this is a happy place we're in. But if you're outside of
08:39this group, there is no love, peace, or joy to people who are on the outside of it. And so that's
08:44not really a Christ-like, you know, spirit. It's something that progresses in a good way. And it's
08:49something that Christians are supposed to strive for. But if you look at the world today, especially
08:56in today's new apostolic reformation, the NAR or NAR groups, what is transitioning is it's evolving
09:04into something that's far worse. People are becoming less Christ-like if you understand what
09:09the word Christ-like means. However, if you're in one of these groups, there is a clear, distinct
09:17difference in the way that you're taught. I can say from experience, when I was in the groups, I really
09:24believed that we were living holy. We were holy people. We, it was a pride of holiness to the groups
09:31as usually comes out in the form of pride. We're prideful that we are part of this thing that the
09:36world around us is not part of. Even if the world around us is Christian, they're different Christians
09:43than us. We are better than them. We are the elite where there's different names. We called it the
09:47bride. We're, we're the bride churches and that church down the street, which believes in Jesus,
09:53which teaches Jesus and salvation. We taught, we were taught that they were not the bride because they,
10:00they did not accept the things that we had. So we'll get into how this evolved and why,
10:07but to do it, I think the best way to do this is historically. And I've thought often about how
10:14is the best way to introduce this as a historical past where people can grasp the difference and why
10:23it evolved into the way that it did. And the biggest problem is where do you start with this?
10:28If you trace Pentecostalism, if you trace the new apostolic reformation through charismatic
10:33movement, through Pentecostalism, well, where do you stop? Because you can go all the way back to
10:39Gnosticism, which if you don't understand what this means, I highly recommend that you go do
10:45even just a simple Wikipedia study on what is Gnosticism. You'll understand that Pentecostalism really is just
10:53Gnosticism reinvented. And the idea that a group is better than the other groups around them. That's
11:01not a new concept. The idea that one group has a secret mystery that nobody else has, or has an elite
11:09status that nobody else has. Since the inception of Christianity, when Jesus Christ came, and then
11:17after he left the scene, there were many groups who came out of pagan mystery cults. And these pagan
11:23mystery cults just kind of invaded Christianity. And they produced all of these disparate groups, and
11:29they were called Gnosticism. And you can understand how it evolved into what it did today by tracing that
11:37lineage. But I thought for this discussion, it would probably be good just to cut it off just right
11:44before Pentecostalism, so that people can kind of understand that, yes, this did exist far before
11:51Pentecostalism. You can go back as far in time as you want. But the inception of Pentecostalism,
11:58that was an event. Most Pentecostals, Charismatics, and even New Apostolic Reformation people
12:05will go back to the Azusa Street Revival and say, this was the sudden outbreak. This is whenever
12:11Christ decided to come back, and in the form of the Holy Spirit into his church, and now we're being
12:17manifested with all of these gifts. They will frame it like this. And the churches, in many cases,
12:25will teach that you must have these gifts in order to have a church that is holy. And people who weren't
12:32a part of this movement, they look at this and they think, well, what is that? That's not what the
12:37Bible teaches is holiness. So we're going to go back and we're going to start with some of the history
12:43that was evolving and shaping itself into what became modern Pentecostalism, and then developed
12:50into all of these groups. And the first place to start, best place to start, is a person named
12:56Frank Sanford. You also must understand the concept of British Israelism and what it meant whenever
13:06leaders who were indoctrinated with British Israelism were talking, what they were talking
13:11about when they were mentioning the coming Elijah. They would often reference the end of Malachi,
13:18the scroll of Malachi, and say that Malachi 4, whenever it's talking about the return of Elijah,
13:24they will say that that is pointing to the end of days, not John the Baptist. And even though
13:31the scroll of Malachi was one scroll without having chapters or verse numbers, they will say that
13:39chapter 3 points to John the Baptist and chapter 4 is pointing to the last days, basically. And this is
13:46because in British Israelism, the idea, which is a false notion, a false history, is that the descendants
13:54of the 10 lost tribes of Israel emerged and landed in the British Isles, and then later the United States
14:03was adopted into this. So the United States and the British Isles were the descendants of the 10 lost
14:10tribes of Israel. And men and women began to reinterpret Scripture to frame it such that when you read the Old
14:20Testament, anything about the ancient Jews, you're reading in a twofold manner. The history as it related
14:29to ancient Israel was written as history in the Bible, but it was also written as a shadow of the things
14:36to come today. So that when you read a verse, you could apply it literally to both the ancient history,
14:44whatever's the historical context, and the modern days for whatever is the era of the person teaching
14:51British Israelism. Frank Sanford was one such individual who did this. And sadly, there are many
15:00countless people who believe that they are either the return of this Elijah, which Frank Sanford convinced
15:06his followers that he was, or they will say that they're a Moses or David or some spiritual
15:13divine figure that was sent to lead God's people. And they claim all of the authority given to,
15:22you know, given to whatever is the biblical figure in the Bible, they'll say that they have that same
15:27authority. And so by nature, this develops into a hierarchical religion where you have men or women
15:36who are using and abusing passages of Scripture to claim that they have a right to be an authoritarian
15:44governor over bodies of people. So when you look at the NAR today, and you find all of these men who claim
15:52to be an apostle or a prophet, it goes deeper than just apostle or prophet in that theology frame,
16:00in that theological framework, because the apostle and the prophet, the apostle, for example,
16:07it means a person who is sent out. As Christianity was spreading, you had the apostles who would go out
16:13and spread Christianity. Many, very few of these leaders, many of them claim that they're apostles,
16:20but very few of them actually go out and are sent as a missionary type person.
16:26They're an apostle using the term as a leadership mechanism, not as something to actually spread
16:34Christianity. And the reason for this is whenever these people interpret the Bible in this British
16:41Israel way, it is a, it's not a doctrine that is to spread and grow Christianity.
16:50It's a doctrine to bring people in and consume them and prepare them for the return of Jesus Christ
16:57with the idea that they are living in the last days. There's no hope left for the rest of the world.
17:03I grew up hearing sermon after sermon after sermon where there's no help. They're all lost. And you
17:10grow up with this mentality that you don't even try to go out and spread Christianity. So the word apostle
17:15itself takes on a different meaning. What it means to be saved or find salvation takes a different
17:21meaning. And holiness becomes this thing where it is a pride that we're part of the last remaining
17:28group. That's what it means to be holy. This misunderstanding of what it meant to be an apostle
17:34can be traced all the way back to Sanford. And there's many, many things that we could talk about
17:39with Frank Sanford that are just outlandish. If you, if you want to know more, you can go to
17:45Wikipedia or do some internet searches and find that he almost killed all of his followers. It was a
17:53devastating tragedy. But as it relates to the modern day apostles, you have to understand his theology.
18:01The modern day apostles do not go out. They believe that they're part of this elite group.
18:06And this can be traced back to Sanford because Sanford in the climax of his ministry, whenever he
18:13purchased a large yacht, I think there were two boats that he purchased and he was going out into
18:19the world. He was an apostle who actually did go out, but he did not really attempt to convert the
18:26people of the other nations. It was more preaching at them instead of preaching for them. And in some cases,
18:33he would take the boat up to the shore and just preach at the entire continent as though that,
18:39you know, him and his group were better than the people of the continent. We have no,
18:44no reason to go down and try to convert them. Let's just preach at them. And that concept,
18:50preaching at people instead of preaching for people is something that, like I said, it can be traced
18:56back to Sanford, but it can be traced all throughout many of the Pentecostal charismatic groups.
19:03The idea of bringing new people in, in the more destructive groups is a foreign idea.
19:11We, like I said, in Branhamism, we had no intention to try to go convert the world. We were part of the
19:17last ones and many Bible verses were twisted or even actually altered by William Branham to say that
19:25there's one in a million and we're part of that one, let's ignore the million. So whenever you
19:31understand that salvation and especially this idea of being an apostle is different from the biblical
19:38versions of those two concepts, you can understand how this progressed into what it did today.
19:46The second person, which I've mentioned before, and I actually have a book if you want to read it,
19:52on John Alexander Dowie. There are many men and women who used and abused their spiritual authority
20:00to govern bodies of people in ways that were not Christ-like, in ways that were not displaying
20:07true Christian holiness, but none so wealthy as Dowie. Dowie abused his power and his claim to be Elijah
20:17to gain 15 million dollars by 1902, which in today's money is over half of a billion dollars.
20:25And Dowie's version of holiness was such that he was the return of Elijah, therefore he was the one who
20:32was to govern and lead the people into the afterlife. And so the people who willingly submitted to Dowie
20:39were submitting their entire fortunes. They would come and they would join into his communal, he
20:45actually had a communal city that people were forfeiting all of their possessions and, you know,
20:50giving their money to Dowie. And he was becoming wealthy while the others were submitting their total
20:56lives to Dowie. So Dowie set this precedent that really continued throughout the history that
21:04developed into the New Apostolic Reformation. When you compare Dowie to many of these leaders who are
21:12using and abusing their spiritual authority to govern bodies of people, they're doing it through the
21:18framework that Dowie had established. As it relates to holiness, what Dowie and Sanford brought to the
21:24movement that the movement that was developing was the idea that the leaders themselves were to be the
21:31spiritual elite and those who adhered to their doctrine and believed all of the things that they
21:38said about the end time vision of things to be. If you believe this, you were part of the elite group and
21:47therefore you had salvation that was attached to being part of that body. Those who were not
21:54part of that body, those who questioned the supreme authority of these two leaders, those were the
22:01people who were preached at and condemned. So even if you were a Christian and you're outside of Dowie's
22:06sect or outside of Sanford's sect, you were the ones who were preached at, not preached for. And this
22:12brought the mentality that salvation and what it meant to be holy was literally to become part of the group.
22:22If you were part of the group, you were holy. If you were outside, you were not holy. But what Dowie brought
22:29to the equation that far beyond what Sanford had was literally the money. Whenever Dowie started losing
22:36his mental faculties, there are newspaper articles that say that Zion City was just flooded with people
22:44who wanted to be the next prophet. Because Dowie had established and widely publicized all of this
22:52money, everybody wanted their chance at getting this money. This is where the founder of modern
22:58Pentecostalism, Charles Fox Parham, comes in. Parham had visited Frank Sanford's sect to see how Sanford had
23:07achieved this ultimate authority over his people. And he also visited Dowie's sect to see how Dowie had
23:14achieved this finance, this financial empire that he had created and how he had achieved this
23:21authoritarian control. And the other thing that Dowie established is that the leadership
23:28could not be questioned. This would play an important role, especially as it developed through
23:33the Lateran movement into the NAR because the apostles and the prophets, the figures of authority
23:40cannot be questioned. Or if the people who are questioning them do question, they're chastised,
23:47they're cast out, they're condemned, and they're preached at. You're not part of the group if you're
23:52questioning the leader. There were hundreds of scandals that Dowie was at the center of focus for.
24:00In fact, there were something like 200 to 300 lawsuits that Dowie was involved with,
24:06everything from fraud to people who died because of his doctrine or his abuse of power to neglect
24:13them of medical care. I've documented a lot of that in my book, Militant Christian Extremism,
24:19a Critical Examination of John Alexander Dowie. And you can read more about that. But what Dowie was
24:27bringing was a public version of the doctrine that if you're on the outside, you saw Dowie from the
24:35lens of the filtered version of his doctrine. And he had the private doctrine that was secret for those
24:42who were part of the elite sect. This would set a precedent for the groups that followed and emerged
24:48after him. One of those doctrines, for example, was polygamy. Dowie was teaching in private
24:55the views on male and female sex were skewed within the movements. And Dowie was teaching
25:02polygamy in private. Later, he got caught and was exposed for this. But there's a passage in 1 Timothy
25:10that says, a woman will be saved through childbirth. And many of these groups, I'm not certain if Dowie was
25:17using this verse or not. I know in Branhamite sects, they used this to unbelievable extremes.
25:25But the views of how a woman is saved and how a woman remains holy are separated from how a man
25:32is saved and how a man is holy. Since there's this hierarchy that is established for the cult leader
25:40and his sect, they further this hierarchy to say that the men have also an authoritarian control
25:46over the women, and that through sex, the women can be saved. So the more women that you have to
25:53save, the better the doctrine according to how the polygamous versions of this movement have been
26:00established. Dowie was one of the people who was teaching this. So as it relates to scandals and
26:06conflicts of Christian interest and morality, Dowie was the epitome of somebody who is anti-Christian.
26:17But yet he could not be questioned by the group, because if you're part of the movement and you
26:22question the group, you're not with the group. You're therefore on the outside and you're chastised.
26:28So that set the precedent for what would come later. This is evident in Charles Fox Parham, who is the
26:35founder of modern Pentecostalism. Parham is one of the people who came as one of the Elijahs to claim
26:42Dowie's throne. And he himself had been holding these meetings with children and had several allegations
26:51and one criminal trial involving misconduct with those children. In fact, some of the misconduct was
26:59sexual and there are large discussions of what happened during this event and not. But there are
27:06articles that give statements regarding his testimony during the trials and Parham admitted to the
27:14allegations. What isn't evident and unfortunately is lost to history, it wasn't just one single incident.
27:22There were numerous incidents and there were several parents who said similar things had happened and
27:29they wanted to also get involved. But we don't have the transcript of the court trial. What we do know
27:36is that there were allegations and some of the allegations were substantiated by
27:42Charles Fox Parham's own testimony. Charles Fox Parham, as I mentioned, is the leader, the founder of
27:49modern Pentecostalism. And his relationship to the movement as a whole has been somewhat disconnected.
27:56His student, William Joseph Seymour, is the one who held the Azusa Street Revival, who was leading
28:02that movement. Parham was his mentor. And so modern Pentecostals try to separate the two. And they'll say
28:10that, you know, Parham, yes, he mentored William Joseph Seymour, taught him in the faith, but they really
28:16don't go deep with how that happened because Parham had these allegations and somehow narrowly escaped
28:25from them. However, when you study holiness between William Joseph Seymour, Charles Fox Parham,
28:34Dowie and Sanford, you start to see this pattern that is emerging where holiness is being part of the
28:41movement, part of the group. And those who are deemed unholy are outside of the group. What John
28:48Alexander Dowie and Frank Sanford had established, which would set the precedent for decades to come,
28:55is the idea that holiness is directly linked to leadership. And the leadership are to be governors of
29:03the bodies. And if you are in the body and the leader is teaching you the way in which you should live
29:10and the way in which you should call holy, those who are outside of the group, those who are not
29:16under the leadership, they are not holy. We are the clean ones. They are the unclean. And they're basing
29:23this loosely on this notion that through British Israelism, and you had the great leaders of the
29:29Old Testament, such as Moses, who led God's people out, the people followed the leader and the leader,
29:36the leader had authority over them. Yet, if you read the Bible and you understand the reasons why
29:43that existed, and you understand the difference between Christianity, ancient Judaism, and the
29:50cults, the ancient cults of the world, you understand that Christianity is something that is totally
29:56different. Matthew 20, Jesus says, you know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord over them,
30:02and their great ones exercise authority over them. It shall not be so among you, but whoever would be
30:10great among you must be your servant, even as the son of man came not to be served, but to serve.
30:17So what was established and what would set the framework for the holiness that we're going to
30:22get into next is the idea that if you are in one of these groups, your leader, whoever it is,
30:30Charles Fox Parham, John Alexander Dowie, Frank Sanford, travel up through time to the New Apostolic
30:36Reformation, Mike Bickle, Bill Johnson, those who are rulers over you exercise great authority over you,
30:45which is the exact opposite of what Jesus established whenever he said the way that Christians are to act
30:52and behave is not to submit to these authority of leaders. There is Jesus Christ and then there's
30:59everybody else. Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression
31:05of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements
31:12into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's
31:18website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of
31:26John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
31:33audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various
31:39people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can
31:45support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like
31:51and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William
31:56Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. When people today look at the New
32:02Apostolic Reformation and its churches and its leadership and many of the apostolic churches that are in the
32:09networks that together are combined to form the New Apostolic Reformation, they often look at the
32:16leadership and the immediate problems that are the glaring of very obvious issues with church leadership
32:25and wonder, often wonder, how the people will stay submitting to these leaders. We've got Jed Hartley
32:34who's talking about the issues that are happening in International House of Prayer in Kansas City under Mike Bickle.
32:41You have a leader who has been very much exposed for misconduct of a variety of issues with, you know,
32:49involving sometimes even children. And yet you have a group of people who are still dedicated to that leader.
32:56And the question, if you read through the Roy's report or any of the articles that are online talking about this relationship
33:04between the church and the governing leaders that are in these cult-like groups, you start to wonder,
33:12how could you stay under their authority? You realize that this person is clearly, there are clearly problems here.
33:20Why do not the people just leave and choose a different leader? And you have to understand that it all goes
33:26back to this Moses or this Elijah model that's being established by the early leaders who were establishing
33:33the Pentecostal faith. And the best example to understand how and why that hierarchy remains
33:41is to look at the origins of the charismatic movement. Chuck Smith faced many similar questions
33:51regarding his church model. And his church model goes back to this Elijah or Moses model. In fact,
33:58he himself in an interview declared that he is following that same pattern. There were starting to emerge
34:06issues within Calvary Chapel. And the problem was that the leadership that was involved with these
34:14scandals, the leadership was often left in their positions of authority. And people who are outside
34:22of the group question, why are you doing this? If you have a predator in your midst, why not eliminate
34:27the predator? And Chuck Smith's response was, we follow the model. In fact, his exact
34:36words, we take the model from the work that God established in the nation of Israel. So here is
34:44another tie back to British Israelism. We are living under the model of ancient Israel is what Smith says.
34:51He says, Moses was the leader appointed by God, and he took 70 men. They assisted Moses in overseeing the
34:58mundane types of issues that developed within the nation. And there was a priesthood under Aaron.
35:04And he says, similarly, we have assistant pastors and they look to me as their senior pastor.
35:10So what Chuck Smith is declaring as this is during the days in which, you know, the charismatic movement
35:17is starting to develop and broaden itself into all of these apostolic networks that eventually became the
35:23new apostolic reformation. Chuck Smith is one of the leaders that is spearheading this. And he is
35:30declaring that if we are to establish the church, we need that same hierarchy where there is a central
35:36figure at the top. And he's actually declaring right here, he is the central figure. And he says,
35:44we have priesthood under this. And he's declaring that his assistant pastors are the people under his
35:50authority. And this governance model that is established like the Old Testament, which again,
35:57completely defies the way that Jesus said the church should be established. He said that there,
36:03you do not follow the pattern of the Gentiles, where the Gentiles had rulers that lord over them.
36:10But yet, as charismatic as the charismatic movement is being established, it is the Moses model that's
36:16being established. So whether you have an Elijah model and a Moses model, whatever is the Old Testament
36:23governor, that is to be established as a hierarchical leader over your people, you're still following
36:32the ancient pattern that Jesus is condemning. Yet people who examine these movements and these leaders
36:40from the outside looking in, they all want to focus on the sexual issues because it's more reportable
36:48and it's entertaining to readers. But what they failed to mention is that if you look at the sexual
36:55misconduct that is happening, it is not the root cause. It is just a direct result of empowering
37:03leadership without giving them proper boundaries. And it all comes back to the Chuck Smith Moses model
37:09that he described. During the interview, when Chuck Smith is talking about the church model that he's
37:15establishing and he's going back to the Moses model, what he is saying in very explicit words is that
37:25the leaders who are, in this case, they were predators. The leaders who are predators are not subject
37:31to the accountability of the people surrounding them. They're only subject to the accountability of God.
37:40So if they do something wrong against the people, it doesn't matter as long as God keeps them in that
37:45position. But if you really follow that to its logical conclusion, Chuck Smith is the God who is
37:52keeping them in that position. He's the Moses figure. He is the mediator between God and man. And again, that
37:58defies the Jesus model where the Gentiles are the ones who are exercising this type of authority,
38:05not the Christians. So the Moses model that Chuck Smith carried forward is the root cause that we're
38:13seeing today. All of these leadership who Mike Pickle, for example, who is very much exposed as having
38:22done really horrific things against the people of his group, but the people who remain in the cult
38:30will still give him the same undue authority and governance and undue respect that no person should
38:38have. It defies the Jesus model, but it does match the Chuck Smith model. In Chuck Smith model,
38:44there is no human that can question the authority. This is carried forward through John Wimber who worked
38:52with Chuck Smith. As far as I know, John Wimber did not have any of the sexual misconduct issues or the
38:59financial issues, scandals that a person who's critically examining the NAR today and its history
39:08would flag as problematic. But what he did have was he promoted this idea that Chuck Smith had
39:16established of this church leadership model which resembled the Moses model. Though many of the supporters
39:24of John Wimber today would reject the notion, John Wimber promoted the Moses model that Chuck Smith was
39:32pushing as his theological doctrine, and he's working with the shepherding movement, which the shepherding
39:39movement was established as an authoritarian governance body that, again, is a direct defiance of what Jesus
39:47declared as the church structure, wherein the shepherds, there were five of them. They had leaders
39:55of the movement who were submitting all of their authority to the shepherds, and then below them
40:00were shepherds shepherding other shepherds all the way down to the rank and file member. Well, John Wimber,
40:07as he's working with these guys and promoting the Moses model leadership, he is declaring, in fact,
40:16in his own words, he says that the problems that were starting to be reported within the movement,
40:24which involves sexual misconduct, authoritarianism, many other things, he said that the problem is that
40:31they had, quote, become out of joint with the body of Christ. They weren't under authority. They
40:38weren't in a positive way with a community of elders. And what he's describing here, and if you
40:44understand the context of this history, the shepherding movement is being called out for
40:51a variety of issues, some of which is sexual misconduct, but mostly authoritarianism. And
40:58John Wimber is working to establish unity among the broader charismatic movement with the shepherding
41:05movement, who is being called out for their authoritarian control. And he's doing this by saying,
41:11they need to submit to authority. So he's saying that the answer to this is the Chuck Smith model,
41:17they need to submit to that authority. And that hierarchy, which is exactly the one that is being
41:24under the microscope for all of the issues that involve a submission to authority under the Chuck
41:31Smith type model, the John Alexander Dowie model, the Frank Sanford model. And defenders of John Wimber
41:39will often refute the notion that Wimber was responsible for helping to establish the new
41:46apostolic reformation. And they often go back, there's a point in time in which John Wimber is
41:52helping to push and promote the Kansas City Fellowship, which includes men who had various issues,
42:01some of which were sexual misconduct, such as Mike Bickle, Paul Kane, who struggled with
42:07homosexuality and other things. John Wimber is the one who's pushing them, especially in the UK.
42:14And they'll refute this. And I'll say that this was a one-time event and he regretted all of it.
42:20But the part that is often overlooked is the idea that in Wimber's worldview, which was developed from
42:29the worldview that Chuck Smith was pushing, this Moses model worldview, the leadership who is in this type
42:38of role is untouchable. And even if they fall to horrendous sins, such as the leaders that Wimber
42:47himself helped to promote, it doesn't matter because they're helping to further establish the kingdom.
42:54And it all comes back to John Wimber's view of the kingdom theology, which traces, if you trace it all
43:02the way back to the views of the kingdom theology of Dowie and of Frank Sanford, you'll see it's much
43:09the same. It all revolves around the leadership. This is evident in an interview. He describes this
43:17by saying that the people just need to understand how kingdom power is released. He said, some are not
43:25very moral, very stable, or very sound people, yet they are able to operate in kingdom power. My
43:33perception is that they are operating in legitimate power, although they themselves made an illegitimate
43:39entry into that power. And what this does as it relates to holiness is it gives the idea that even
43:47if the scoundrel is a predator, and even if they are in many cases not truthful about their ministries,
43:57because they are performing these miracles, they have tapped into the kingdom. They're hoping further
44:05establish the kingdom. And that's really the difference if you understand John Wimber's kingdom
44:10theology and understand what the Bible says as the establishment of the kingdom. They're two separate
44:16things. Jesus said that many false Christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and
44:23wonders, so to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. What Jesus is saying is don't look at the signs
44:31and miracles, because this is a good way to trick you, and there are many who will do this. John Wimber is
44:38saying, well, they're tapping into the real thing, so therefore it must be real, and the kingdom is
44:43further being established. Also, as it relates to holiness, what Wimber is establishing is the idea
44:51which is coming from a long line of history behind this idea, all the way back to, as we mentioned,
44:58Dowie Sanford. The idea that the establishment of the kingdom can be defined by the miracles. In Wimber's
45:06theology, it's the kingdom power. If you display the kingdom power, you are displaying the real thing.
45:13And so people who can get into and tap into this power, they're tapping into the real thing. Yet,
45:20in 2 Thessalonians, for example, the coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan, with all
45:28power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception. There is no person who can look
45:36at the history that Wimber, in his intersection with the Kansas City Fellowship, there's no person
45:43that can look at this and not see that it was not wicked. You had Mike Bickel, who was apparently,
45:51allegedly grooming several women. You had Bob Jones, who was later exposed for having sexual misconduct.
46:00You had Paul Kane, also exposed for homosexuality, sexual misconduct. So you had these predators.
46:07But according to Wimber's theology, which follows this Moses pattern, they are a Moses figure. They're
46:15a figure who's helping further the kingdom because they can display a miracle. They can display a sign
46:22or wonder. Therefore, they're tapping into the real thing. And what it does is it separates to the people
46:30the idea that if a movement is by God, it will purify the movement itself. There is a cleansing that
46:39comes from within, according to the Bible scriptures of what is holiness. It totally removes this element
46:47because instead of looking at what it means to be a Christian, you are instead looking at what it
46:53means to perform a miracle. And people, they shift their focus to, I too want to have a miracle. I want
47:01to have a testimony of a miracle. I want to perform a miracle. The miracle is helping to establish the
47:08kingdom, not the way that Jesus said to establish the kingdom. And again, it defies all of the passages
47:15that say that an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign or a miracle. What is being established
47:23established is a kingdom where the Christian, what it means to be a Christian and what it means to
47:29display Christian holiness, none of that matters. We're now establishing the kingdom. We're past,
47:36we've moved past the point at which we're to be helpful, loving, caring, displaying all of the signs
47:44of the spirit. The real problem is that what Wimber was pushing as kingdom now or kingdom theology,
47:52his version of kingdom theology. If you understand the difference between Wimber's kingdom theology and
47:58the Christian kingdom theology, he opened the door for what is called apostolic authority.
48:05And what this means essentially is that you have the body of people who are the rank and file members,
48:12and those people cannot judge the apostles. The apostles are not accountable to the people.
48:18They are accountable to apostolic authority. In other words, an apostle is subject to another
48:24apostle. They're not accountable to the people, which again is in defiance of Matthew 20, where
48:29Jesus said, the rulers of the Gentiles lord over them, and they exercise great authority. Wimber is
48:36helping to further the Moses model that was established by long before Chuck Smith, but was promoted by Chuck
48:43Smith, and he is helping to establish the apostolic authority. Defenders of John Wimber will actually
48:51say this is a good thing. They will say that for a period of time, Wimber suspected and found out that
48:57there were huge problems within the Kansas City Fellowship, and Mike Bickle for a period of time submitted to
49:04the authority of John Wimber for correction, and then Wimber gave up on them, and then they went off into their
49:10own destruction. But the reverse of this is John Wimber was helping to promote an authoritarian model
49:18wherein the apostle was accountable only to the apostle, and the church body, the ones who are at
49:29risk of being prey to the predator, the church body does not have any way to judge the apostle.
49:37So Mike Bickle, I think it's 1989, he goes to Wimber's church, and he is admitting in the church that he's
49:44under the apostolic authority given to Wimber and the leadership of the vineyard churches. He is
49:50essentially describing this pattern where an apostle is subject only to another apostle, and they're not to
49:59be judged by the church body. In other words, we reject the teaching of Jesus that Christianity
50:06is not supposed to be like the Gentiles and have this type of authority model. They fully reject
50:13this, and they say they are apostles, they're above reproach by the people. So if you follow this
50:18pattern, and again, I've only taken a snapshot in history from Frank Sanford and John Dowie all the way
50:27up to the birth of the Kansas City Fellowship. We could go into the future, we could go far into the past.
50:33If you understand the model that is being established for what is considered holiness,
50:40we've established the pattern that you must have an apostle, you must be a Moses figure,
50:45you must submit yourself to the Moses figure. And by submitting yourself to that authority,
50:52you're tapping into the kingdom. And if you tap into the kingdom, and there's any sort of miracle,
50:58sign wonder that follows your group, because you can sense and detect this miracle, you are part of the
51:05body. And as part of the body, you have holiness. That is, in a nutshell, what was being constructed
51:12throughout this section of time that I have gone through. And what it establishes is the idea that your
51:20holiness is becoming part of a group. Whenever I was in Branhamism, our holiness was tied to whether
51:27or not we were part of the bride, which we called each other in this movement, we were part of this
51:33movement. If you were outside of this, you were outside of holiness, you were unholy, you were unclean.
51:39In fact, we had other words that were far more destructive, we would call people outside of our
51:43group cannon fodder. In other words, during the battle, you are the expendable people that will
51:50die from a cannonball. And we don't care, because we're moving, we're advancing the army forward.
51:56In many ways, that describes the version of what they call holiness in these movements.
52:03It doesn't matter if you're a Christian, it doesn't matter if you follow Christ,
52:06it doesn't matter if you adhere to all of the things that Christ said a Christian should do
52:13to become more holy. If you're not part of the group, if you don't have your Moses figure,
52:19then you are essentially not holy. So again, it's just a small snapshot in history,
52:26but hopefully it can, for the people who are on the outside looking in, trying to understand and make
52:32sense of all of this, hopefully it can paint a picture of why that Christians who are part of these
52:39movements behave the way that they do. And why the, the real fruits of the spirit, the peace,
52:45the joy, the love that should be displayed to those outside of the group, why it is not displayed,
52:52that all hopefully should become more apparent by this little snapshot in history that I have done.
52:58So if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
53:03You can find us at william-brannum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,
53:10you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
53:26In the following day, you can see our show and the show forever.
53:28Please remember our show and we'll see that our show in a minute.
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53:31Thanks, everyone.
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