Charismatic Chaos or Spirit Led Faith? A Conversation on Balance | Benji McNair Scott

4 months ago

John and Benjamin discuss the roots, controversies, and modern expressions of the charismatic movement, tracing how it evolved from early figures like Edward Irving into later revivals and present-day expressions. Their conversation highlights the tension between structured traditions and emotional spirituality, while also exploring how different cultures—particularly in the UK and the United States—have developed distinct patterns of belief and practice. Along the way, they reflect on failed predictions, the dangers of personality-driven leadership, and the ongoing struggle to find a healthy balance between genuine spiritual experience and unhealthy extremes.

They also examine the rise of various interpretations of apostleship, contrasting hierarchical models with functional and service-based perspectives. Historical movements such as the Catholic Apostolic Church, the Latter Rain revival, and figures like Dowie and Sanford are woven into the discussion, showing how cycles of enthusiasm, excess, and reform repeat through time. Ultimately, the conversation underscores the importance of honest history, careful discernment, and a willingness to learn both from tradition and from new movements, while avoiding unhealthy extremes.
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Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Benjamin McNair Scott,

00:47author of The Apostles Today. Benjamin, it's good to have you on and have what is an unusual

00:54podcast for me. As you and I were just discussing, I do a lot of very, very critical podcasts

01:01about the critical histories, and I focus heavily on the things that are concealed because it

01:07fascinates me. Why cover up your own history or your past? But every once in a while I

01:12get somebody who is in favor of some of those histories and those pasts, and I'm hesitant

01:18to bring on to the show a cult member, somebody who is just very vigorously defending the cult

01:25because they tend to want to argue and battle. But I did want to bring somebody on who would

01:31speak favorably of the charismatics. You got to talking to me, you sent me introduce yourself

01:36in an email, and I got a little bit excited because you are uniquely positioned to do that

01:42in such a way that is not an argument or a debate. So, I wanted to hear from you what

01:48your thoughts on all of this weird mess that I have on my podcast. So, today, instead of diving

01:54in to critically analyze, I guess we're just going to talk and discuss and talk about what

01:59is this weird thing that we call the charismatic movement today?

02:03Well, thank you. As you highlighted, I came across your work online and then I got your book

02:14as well and thoroughly enjoyed it and you highlighted areas that I was not aware of, particularly with

02:22the Christian identity movement and things like that. I have, as you have pointed out, I've probably

02:28had a more positive experience of elements of the charismatic movement. I was converted into

02:37conservative evangelicalism and then kind of stumbled into an evangelical charismatic church,

02:44but it was nicknamed the Thinking Man's HTB, based in London, with a very godly minister called

02:53John Irvin, who himself was very much steeped within evangelicalism, but actually was also

03:02helpful in putting together the Alpha Course as well. But what I really discovered, particularly within

03:08that community, was people who loved the scriptures, but really did still believe that there was an active

03:16ministry of the Holy Spirit beyond sanctification, that there were charisms of the Spirit that were still

03:26available and could be used in a manner that built up the fellowship of believers.

03:35Now, to be honest with you, there were elements not necessarily there that I saw within the charismatic

03:40movement that you could see were, I don't know, I would say kind of fleshly. I'm not sure if that's a,

03:48if that will mean much to your listeners, that terminology, but clearly sort of people in an emotional

03:56state that you felt was not necessarily indicative of the Spirit moving. Nevertheless, I think I

04:05I certainly saw people whose love for God was increased through being associated with the charismatic

04:17movement. And I would even say there were a few experiences that I myself had which I didn't feel

04:24led me away in any way, but led me to God and His Word. So, as I said, my experience was much more

04:35positive, and certainly the ministers that I met were very uncult-like. But most of them had all come

04:45from an evangelical stable. But the reason why I'm on here is, in many ways, is because I ended up

04:53delving into a subject that I know that you and Charles have looked at, and that was to do with the

04:58five-fold ministry. And again, it wasn't a major feature of the preaching at all within my charismatic

05:11evangelical center. You didn't really hear about it at Holy Trinity Brompton or St Barnabas where I was at.

05:20Nevertheless, Holy Trinity Brompton had been a kind of gateway, not only just for John Wimber, but

05:26actually John Wimber had introduced them to a number of the Kansas City prophets who had come

05:32over. And interestingly, my vicar was actually very suspicious in that regard and had been,

05:43I think, at the huge gathering that happened in Wembley. This was the thing you're probably

05:48aware of, this story where Wimber was kind of betting in many ways his ministry at that point

05:54that revival was going to come. And so he brought the Kansas City prophets over to Wembley.

06:03But anyhow, the rumor was that my wonderful godly vicar was picked out by one of the Kansas City

06:10prophets. And he just said, I don't think that's God. So that's just to highlight that

06:20certainly there were, you know, within the sector I was in, it definitely wasn't, if anybody sort of

06:27announces certain things prophetically, they are to be accepted. It was far from that.

06:30That's interesting. You know, if the same event had have happened here, and everybody was familiar

06:36with it, John Wimber pushing that this revival was going to happen right here in the city,

06:40I think there would be a lot less in the Wimber cult, a lot less members of the Wimber cult.

06:46But they have almost literally concealed that history. Nobody in America who's a part of this

06:52big fan group, I think the vast majority are unaware that he had these predictions and that's

06:57the reason why the Kansas City prophets were there. But as I hear you talk, it's kind of funny because

07:04I relate to you in many ways. I have had experiences that I can't explain. And there are things that

07:10have happened to friends and family members. I have family who was not in the Branham cult,

07:15but who are very much charismatic, who often get into somewhat not heated, but somewhat very

07:24enthusiastic discussions with me. I'll say it like that, because I usually just truth bomb them.

07:29And they usually, they want to go to the emotions, I want to go to the facts. And that's the

07:34difference between the two of us. But it isn't that I just discount what they, what their opinion is,

07:39they have a valid opinion, mine is different. But I don't, I don't lean so far heavily skeptical as

07:46people take me to be with the podcasts that I do, because I have had some experiences that I just,

07:52I truly can't explain. My problem, really, it when it comes, when it comes down to the very

07:59surface of why I do what I do, I was, what's a good way to explain this? So I started my,

08:06my world was an IT world. I had an IT business consulting that grew into doing different contracts

08:14where I would come in and my team of people would be literally the entire staff of the IT team for

08:20different companies. And I presented myself in a very, in a, in a way that they knew they had

08:28confidence in what I was doing. That was, that was the air that I presented myself with. And then

08:33once I started to act, they could see that my people know what they're doing. I know what I'm

08:38talking about. All of it fits. It all makes sense. But then when you go into this Pentecostal charismatic

08:45world, it would be as if instead of me, somebody had sent a person who is a clown in a, in a circus,

08:54who has no idea about IT, but can talk the language really well. And people are sitting

09:00and just scratching their face, looking at this guy, well, he's dressing like a clown, but he talks

09:04really good. He doesn't fit. I don't know that I believe him, but he talks really good. That's the

09:12feeling that a lot of people get. But what happens is that, as that clown starts building up the

09:17emotions, they go, oh, it feels so good. These emotions. I like this clown. This is a funny,

09:24funny clown. And I know that's a ridiculous example, but that's how it is with some of the

09:31ministries, not all, but some of them. You take a step back and you look at it and you think,

09:35who is this clown and why is he using the name Jesus in his speeches?

09:38Mm hmm. No, I get that. I mean, I think the charismania, some of it is, you know, deeply unhealthy.

09:47And certainly when I looked at the different sort of perspectives on apostles and certain things

09:54that were coming out, you could see that some of the ideas were very tenuous in terms of biblically,

10:01historically, and had the propensity. I divided up looking at

10:09three types of apostle, as I categorized them, apostle type one, apostle type two, and apostle

10:15type three. And apostle type one is the kind that you associate with C. Peter Wagner and his kind of

10:22understanding. I nicknamed them the hierarchical supreme apostle.

10:31And that was the one that I was particularly concerned with, just because I think it has

10:37well, it has a propensity to become very cult-like. And I think there are examples of that. And I think

10:45your podcast has drawn attention to a lot of that, which is which I think is is great, which is really

10:50important. I was more sympathetic to apostle type two, which actually is where Wimber went to. He referred

11:03to bigger capital letter A apostles and little a apostles. And he rejected this kind of the office of

11:14apostle, but went for the function, an apostolic kind of pioneering church planting, but not a kind of

11:23authoritative figure, which you tend to get within the NAR. And I thought I thought that was

11:32justifiable exegetically. That's where I came down in the end. And actually, I felt that it was

11:39something that the church Catholic with a small c has inherently recognized through its

11:48many centuries as well.

11:52Yeah. So I don't know if that gives you a little window of where I went. But the thing that

11:57interested me and one of the reasons why I contacted you, because I know Charles was drawing very much

12:04upon the fivefold ministry, linking it to the latter rain revival and, and so forth. And I know,

12:09actually, I watched your podcast today, and he also tied it back to Edward Irving. And I actually

12:17went a little bit behind that as well. But not that they were, I don't think they impacted Edward Irving

12:23so much, although, but within the Anabaptist movement, strangely, you had some who referred to

12:32themselves as apostles. There were two apostles in, in, in Munster. But I think they gave,

12:40they gave the concept of bad name. And so I think that kind of got dropped. But Edward Irving,

12:48I think, was the man who really put this kind of thinking on the map. I don't know if you've done

12:54much in relation to Edward Irving.

12:56I have. I've studied, I've studied crazy histories that people just wouldn't believe what I have

13:02dove into. And for me, the concept itself, like you said, it predated latter rain. You can go all

13:09the way back to Ephesians, and you can see that there are these different offices. What latter rain

13:14introduced was the pyramid scheme behind it. And everybody was fighting to get at the top of the

13:20pyramid. They, they basically, if you read Ephesians, and you understand what it's saying,

13:26it says, we all have a work to do. Some are called to do this work. Some are called to do this work.

13:31Everybody is really equal. There is no, there is no pyramid hierarchy described in the text.

13:38But what happened with latter rain was, somebody said that they're a teacher, and they started

13:43teaching. Well, another guy says, I'm a prophet, and I have the spoken word of God. I have this thing

13:49being revealed right now for us today. Well, everybody started leaving the teacher and going to the

13:53prophet. And the prophet started teaching, which is kind of weird, because it wasn't the gift.

13:59Branham, Branham would often go into these things where he was teaching. And I think Ern Baxter said

14:06his, his calling wasn't that his calling was even below the prophet, just healing the sick is how

14:12Ern Baxter said it. But once they started fighting for profit, then those who were listening to the

14:19prophets and claiming that their spoken word of God was divine, started using them as teachers,

14:26well, the people who were apostles felt left out. And what does the apostle do? The apostle is the one

14:31that sent out, well, I'm out in some foreign country, and all these guys are getting all the

14:36fame back in the United States and all the money back in the United States. Well, they wanted to come

14:42back to the United States and they wanted to be these apostles. And I'm an apostle. I'm superior to

14:48the prophet because I also have the gift of spoken word. I also have the rhema, all of these things,

14:55but I also have the element of leadership. And so essentially they rewrote the DNA of what was

15:01fivefold ministry to create a pyramid where the apostles at the top, then the prophet, and literally

15:07everybody else. So instead of fivefold, it really becomes threefold, apostle, prophet, and everybody

15:13else. Yes, yes, yes. And you actually get that within the apostolic faith church, which grew up in

15:22Wales. They had a very sort of hierarchical view as well and an indispensable role for the apostle

15:30too. And you do find that, obviously, with where Edward Irving, he birthed the Catholic

15:38apostolic church. Ironically, when that happened, he sort of, within the Catholic apostolic church,

15:45you would have apostle, prophet, and then you would have an angel slash bishop, and then a priest and

15:53deacons. And dear old Edward Irving, you know, he then had to submit to the apostle, having in many

16:01ways been the guy who had initiated this whole thing. But intriguingly with the Catholic apostolic

16:10church, I mean, I kind of understand the rationale on one level. They were hoping for and praying for

16:16the restoration of the apostolic office. But they only had 12. That was all that there was going to be

16:27until another kind of prophetic utterance happened. I think it was in Germany. And they started a new

16:34church. I think it's the New Apostolic Catholic Church, which is still, you know, it's actually

16:41quite a big denomination around the world now with numerous apostles.

16:46And the group literally flips Pentecostalism in the United States on its head, because in

16:51Americanized Pentecostalism, they dubbed Charles Fox Parham as the first to speak in tongues, or his

16:57group was the first. And they, Edward Irving's group, as, what year was that? It was in the 1800s that

17:04they were claiming that they could speak in tongues.

17:061830, around that time. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I mean, I think there are a number of scholars who

17:14very much see him as the forerunner, because he started going on about the baptism and Holy

17:18Spirit and tying it to gift of tongues as well. And in many ways, there is an interesting parallel,

17:27because the first person to speak in tongues, I think it was Mary McLeod. And then Irving kind of

17:37authenticates it. And then similarly with Agnes Osman, wasn't it? And then Parham's Bible School.

17:45So, you know, real similarities between them. And interestingly, I know that Alexander Dowie,

17:51he very much looked back to the Irvingites. And he also had a concept of, you know,

18:00an apostolic office, obviously seeing himself as Elijah, but not just that, that there was going

18:04to be another 12 as well, a limited group too. And then even just before him, you've got the Mormons

18:13on the scene talking about the apostolic office and prophets. In fact, one of the reasons why

18:20they weren't so, they didn't think that the Camberlites were the genuine thing is that they

18:26didn't have the apostles and the prophets, whereas the Mormons did. But then they've managed to kind

18:32of work out, well, we've got 12 apostles, but they can keep being filled, as it were, so they can continue on.

18:39I think Dowie was the reason why I came across Irving. It became this huge rabbit hole. While I was

18:45writing my book on John Alexander Dowie, I discovered the connection to Irving. And I can't remember

18:51what he said, but there was some, if I remember correctly, it was a newspaper article. And Dowie

18:56would always phrase and title his sermons with a statement, and then another statement with a

19:03completely different title. I don't know if you've noticed this, but it reminds you of the old,

19:07oh, what's that show with Mr. Peabody? And anyway, there's this old, there's this old cartoon,

19:14but they would give a title and say train tracks or being carried down the field on top of rails,

19:23something like this. Well, Dowie sermons were always like that. It would have a title,

19:26then a second title. And in one of the second titles, there was, if I remember correctly,

19:32it had something to do with Irving or Irving Ites. And I got to reading the article and there was

19:37a little bit of contention there, if I remember correctly. So I went down that rabbit hole and

19:42I'm like, oh my gosh, man, how did I not know this history? And why do the Pentecostal historians

19:49cover this part up? Because they'll usually go back so far as to Parham, and then they'll stop right at

19:57the trials where he's being accused of multiple, not just one, but multiple sexual assaults on young

20:05children. They stop before they get to that, but they never go back to the actual history where

20:10other charismatics existed far before Charles Fox Barham.

20:15Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And what's interesting about Irving and the Catholic Catholic Church is that they

20:20they tried to locate some of their ideas prior to them as well. And just saying, you know,

20:25we're not a totally new thing either. There are other examples of some of this stuff beforehand,

20:31and they wouldn't, you know, go necessarily, they wouldn't point out Montanus because they knew that

20:37he was discredited and things like that. But they were very keen to show that they were in line

20:43with, you know, elements of the Church's tradition and history, as well as being rooted within the

20:52Scripture first and foremost. I mean, interestingly with Irving, you felt that, yes, he was influenced by

21:01utterances, very much so, but he very much tried to ground his belief within Scripture.

21:08And certainly wouldn't, I don't think he would lay claim, certainly if you read his sermons and stuff

21:14like that, you know, to various prophetic utterances within them. Having said that, he was clearly very

21:20influenced by prophetic utterances as well. But, yes.

21:25And so there's where you and I probably differ a little bit on the nature of the prophetic utterances.

21:32When I look at the Pentecostal movement today and look at some of the things that they proclaim,

21:38like the Wimbers, I don't know what you call this, it probably wasn't a prophecy, but I know that

21:43Min he was with painted it as a prophetic utterance that there would be this big coming revival,

21:50and when it didn't happen in the UK, then they started saying it's going to happen in Kansas City,

21:55the Chiefs are going to win the Super Bowl, and then suddenly this great big revival is going to

21:59break out in the end of the world. That's how it was pitched. And you look at that and you think,

22:04well, that's not prophecy from God. If it is prophecy, it didn't happen. It clearly did not

22:10happen. We watched the Chiefs win the Super Bowl finally, and I'm a Chiefs fan, so I watched this

22:15happen, and I can look at this and I can see that this is clearly a failed prophecy. Everybody needs

22:21to run screaming from this place, but yet the movement still exists, and while they're in

22:28the movement, they still look back to all these quote-unquote prophetic utterances and say that

22:33it's still a divine prophecy from God, even though it didn't happen as they said. We just don't

22:38understand it, and I look back and I say, well, that's confusion. That's not real.

22:43Just to say I'm actually on the same page as you.

22:49I'm very wary of those kind of prophetic utterances. I'm afraid I'm just using the

22:53parlance that was used by Irving and the others, but I'm not going to, you know, call something that

23:01has clearly been shown not to be a prophetic utterance to be a prophetic utterance. I do,

23:11you know, I do believe there is such a thing as prophetic utterance, but I don't actually think

23:16that that's, I think it's, I'm thinking about the situation in 1 Corinthians 14, which I would see is

23:25not, I wouldn't actually see that as expository preaching that Paul is what he's talking about,

23:31because he's seeing, you know, people within the community, one to the other. And I, but I,

23:39I would suspect that much of that is not to do with this is going to happen to you type scenario.

23:49I would imagine this, these are encouraging words that are rooted in Christ and for the,

23:58for the, you know, the, the building up of the body of Christ. So yeah, I'm, I'm, uh, yeah, I, I'm,

24:05I'm kind of with you. I mean, I don't know whether you would agree with that particular

24:09understanding of prophecy or what, um, uh, where, where you sit on that. But, um, yeah,

24:15I think most prophetic utterances, as far as I can see from scripture are not necessarily to do with

24:20the future at all. Yeah, that was the biggest surprise to me because I, so to answer your,

24:27the question you didn't ask, I don't yet know where I have landed on that. I still am kind of

24:32reevaluating everything. And the reason for it is this, what we were taught by and large in the

24:38Branham movement was that fortune telling, which is prediction of the future was prophecy. And you go

24:45back to each one of the quote unquote prophetic utterances, we've almost disproved every one of

24:50them, but anything that was claimed as prophecy, the ones that got him famous were predictions of

24:57the future where it became problematic is once Branham's fame started to spread and people believe

25:04that he was now in this pyramid and he's at the profit level of the pyramid, they started wanting to

25:11know more. Well, tell us like, like the people who were like, whenever all of the people gathered

25:17around Moses and said, Moses, go back, tell us more. We need more. We want more from God. And what

25:23God has given us is not good enough yet. So that's how it was. And the people was starting to circle

25:29Branham like this. After the revivalists, Branham would hold these one-on-one, I don't know what he

25:36called, he had a special name for these things, but one-on-one with a person to tell them they're

25:41basically their fortunes, their futures. And they would ask him, how's my job going to come out?

25:46I'm wanting to get married. Is this the right woman? I mean, things like this. And that clearly

25:51is fortune telling. That's what they were looking to understand their fortune. So I was manipulated

25:58to believe that this was prophecy. And once I left it and realized the difference, how not just

26:05unbiblical, but how evil that is. It's actually anti-biblical. Once I realized that, I started

26:11looking around to the charismatic movement that exists. And I'm not saying that they're all like

26:16this. They're not. But when you go to the ones that are more showmanship, the big stage acts,

26:23the big names that I won't mention, they all seem to have that air about them. I know from God, I have

26:29special insight. And therefore, I know the future. I know what's coming. Come listen to me. That's

26:34the attraction. And they all go towards it. And I compare that to the prophets of the Old Testament,

26:41which many of them try to claim that they are. They're likens to the old prophets, I should say.

26:48The Old Testament prophets was not – there were some futuristic prophecies, but in general,

26:53it was God speaking, saying, because you've done this thing wrong in the past,

26:58and because in the past, I promised you, if you did the good thing, I would bless you,

27:03and you did the bad thing, I would curse you. Because of that, your future has this curse

27:08that's coming, or this blessing that's coming, one or the other. So, it really was not futuristic,

27:13even though you can try to twist and say it was. It was more about what they had done,

27:18and what God had told them to do long in the past. Yeah. No, absolutely. And I do think this is

27:24an area which is just fraught with, well, broken lives as a result of what I would see as kind

27:31of charismatic witchcraft, if I'm honest with you. I think it's – again, I feel relatively

27:39fortunate that certainly in some of the circles that I've been, they tended not to be

27:44that way inclined. Everything is kind of, okay, well, if something's said, if you don't feel or have a

27:56sense within the one that's in line with scripture, or you have a – I mean, the kind of language that

28:03is used, you don't have a settled piece about it, bin it, bin it. And you certainly don't get the kind of – I mean,

28:12again, I feel slightly removed from this because this is a sort of scene I was in a number of years

28:17back, but that was certainly the kind of impression one had there. I didn't really meet people who were

28:24saying, well, a prophet is saying this and you have to do that. I think it was all rather – I was going

28:30to say British. So, yeah. And I do think that some of that was the kind of vineyard spirituality that

28:43was coming through and not the kind of Kansas City stuff.

28:48Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

28:52modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements

28:59into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham

29:04Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website,

29:10you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

29:16John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

29:22You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

29:28movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking

29:34the Contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video

29:40version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,

29:45we want to thank you for your support. You were joking whenever you said it's somewhat British,

29:51but I have started to notice that there is a significant difference between the two. And I

29:56don't know why that is. Maybe it's because all of these cults that were gathering in the United States,

30:02you had some in the UK, but there weren't that many. And while the United States is, the cults are

30:08flourishing. And the people are being trained to understand life and worldview according to what

30:17their cult teaches. When they leave one cult, they can very easily go to another. And sadly,

30:23because some of the, before it becomes destructive, some of the people of cult leadership get strong,

30:31become strong influences of other Christians. So you have this cross-pollination of doctrine,

30:37basically. So in the United States, it evolved much differently than in the UK. I have UK friends

30:42who are just, they're totally different. They're, many of them, even though they may be in a ministry

30:50that I question, they are more skeptical from what I can tell. They're more fact-driven than emotional

30:57driven from what I can tell. And so it has evolved, Christianity has evolved differently. One of my friends,

31:03for example, who is in, I would say he's in somewhat of a cult. I won't go too far with that. But he's

31:13describing meetings where, oh, what's the guy's name? Bart Ehrman. He's describing meetings where

31:20Bart Ehrman is holding a convention talking about the things that he understands in the New Testament

31:26and how it differs from a lot of, especially evangelical Christianity. Entire churches in

31:33the UK will go listen to this because you can learn something from anyone. And so I'm scratching

31:39my head thinking, wait a minute, your entire church went to see Bart Ehrman? Oh yeah, we loved it.

31:44And that's just the difference. In the United States, they would chastise him as a demon. In fact,

31:49they have, you can go watch them. And the people would just never go. But I find it interesting

31:55in the UK, they're more open to facts and criticism. That's interesting. That's interesting.

32:04I wonder if you come across, and the guy I did my doctorate with was a lovely man called Andrew Walker,

32:10who wrote the kind of definitive work on the house church movement.

32:13And I remember talking to him, and I think we were talking about, it was to do with the difference

32:21between America and Britain as well. And whether the fact that the British, that we have an established

32:27church may also be one of the reasons why we're less likely to have so many sort of

32:36cult-like movements, probably. Because you've always got something to, even if you might disagree

32:44with them, there's something there that you're kind of going up against.

32:49Yeah.

32:51So, yeah, I don't know if that rings true or not.

32:54I don't know. I've put long, hard thought into it, because having been in a cult and having escaped

32:59it, you want to understand why. And you look at, from the early foundation of America,

33:05we were, religious freedom was one of the premises for the establishment. But if you look at what

33:11was being established, it was more of a separation. There was a schism. There were people who did not

33:17like the mother church or whatever they called it back then. So they wanted to create their own

33:23desperate groups. And then what's interesting is that those groups splintered. So when they splintered,

33:29you have divisions upon divisions upon divisions. And like you said, there is no global standard in

33:36America. So many of the divisions turned even more cult-like because you had some leader that is

33:43laying down the rules. We separated because of this thing that I don't like. Therefore, nobody in this

33:49group can do this thing. And so they would form a movement off of it. So it became a movement

33:55of splintering into other movements for the sole purpose of dislikes. And so it's very negative.

34:02If you really think of how it evolved, it's really negative. Whereas if you have a global established

34:08church, whether you like that or not, usually the groups that come off of that form some kind

34:14of a positive movement. So you have a group of negatives and a group of positives.

34:18Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And just jumping back to the failed prophecy thing.

34:26We have the most lovely Seventh-day Adventist

34:31lodger. And she really was just superb, really deep affection for her. But it was so fascinating,

34:39you know, hearing the beginnings of that movement with jumping on the back of William Miller

34:46and the, what's it called, the great disappointment, which they sort of own. But then they had to

34:53reinterpret what on earth the prophecy meant that Jesus hadn't come back. Oh, he's just gone into the,

35:00you know, the holiest of holies. But it just does show that certainly within the charismatic sector,

35:06this, the area of predictive prophecy usually falls flat on its face.

35:12Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Owning the failed prophecy is something that you don't find

35:18many times in this group. Whenever I was studying the early formation of Pentecostalism,

35:24and I'm looking at groups like Frank Sanford and his group, this was a well-respected Bible college.

35:33I did not know until I started studying DOWI how respected Frank Sanford's group was. There were people

35:40from all over the world that were coming into this, what was it called, Shiloh, I think was his place.

35:45Yes, that's right.

35:46And so he was well-respected. And what he became was so far destructive. You look at it and you think,

35:51how in the world did people all over the world come to see this guy? And during the height of his fame

35:58was also during the height whenever they were pushing for, they're pushing for money to evangelize

36:06globally, which I think impacted him significantly. He was part of these other movements that – different

36:13ones that kind of indoctrinated him to believe that he could be the spiritual elite apostle or

36:19whatever it was he called himself to go out and convert the world. So they went out on two ships

36:25and several people died scurvy and different things. But before all of that happened, he started

36:31proclaiming that he knew when the end of the world was. And mark it down on your Bibles, folks,

36:38at this exact minute – I think he had the exact minute – this exact minute, go up to the rooftops

36:44because God's going to carry you up to heaven. And so newspapers reported all these people on the

36:49rooftops and nothing's happening. And you would think that the group would just suddenly implode when

36:54this happens. This guy's been telling us this false thing and we realize it's false.

36:59So the other problem that I have when I critically examine all of this mess is that, good or bad,

37:07some of the groups use elements of mind control, whether they know it or not, in the movements.

37:13And once you're under that mind control, the prophet can say, you know, the world's going to end on

37:19Tuesday at 5 p.m., go on your rooftop. When it doesn't happen, they're still under that mind control.

37:24They're like a zombie. So they say, okay, well, that didn't happen, prophet. Tell me when is the

37:29next one. And so they'll give a next one usually. So this goes on and on and the cycle repeats.

37:34Without – you mentioned, you know, the church, the Church of England. With a very structured

37:41church, you have the exact opposite of this. There isn't mind control, but the charismatic movement

37:48would say there's no emotion. This is a dead church. And that's – you know, I think largely

37:54that's why people split and came to America initially. This was a dead church. They would

37:59say these kind of things. So there's this fine line between, okay, on the one extreme,

38:05it's so rigid, it's dry, it's structured, no mind control. And on the other side, you have people

38:13who are getting into such a hype that they become somewhat – like, I hate to use the word, but

38:20they're like that close to mentally insane trying to see the thing that doesn't exist. And they're

38:26always going after that, like a carrot on a stick. They're always going after that carrot and never

38:30finding it. Where you build up into this hype, which turns into this anxiety, and the anxiety

38:35turns into all kinds of mental health issues. So where in between this is the balance? And honestly,

38:42whenever I got your email, that's what I wanted to talk to you about. Where do you find the balance

38:47in the middle of this? Yeah, it's a really difficult one. I remember something when I was doing

38:52my MA, I had a Catholic lecturer, and he said he talked about the early church, and he says the early

39:02church was radically charismatic and radically liturgical, which was very interesting, because

39:08I hadn't really, you know, logged the liturgical point of it. But I think he's correct. The early church

39:20was charismatic. And it had a lot of problems, it had a lot of problems, and a misuse of that.

39:29But it's interesting, I feel that Paul doesn't, you know, go, well, we don't want anything that smacks

39:37of, you know, emotion or anything like that. But he gently kind of guides it back into a more wholesome

39:47manner of being. So I do, I do think it's a tricky one. Because we, you know, certainly within the

39:57communities that we've had, and it sounds like very different experiences, I mean, prior to being

40:02converted with an evangelical setup, and it was a conservative evangelical setup.

40:07I had been to a traditional church, sort of Christmas-Easter scenario, and I went to boarding

40:14schools where we had chapel, you know, a number of days in the week, as well as on Sunday and things

40:22like that, where it was incredibly staid and liturgical. And so I didn't really have a model

40:29of anything different. I mean, I just think there is, there's got to be wisdom that we glean through

40:39looking at the church's experience through millennia, and learn, okay, I mean, one of the things that,

40:46one of the reasons why I did my doctorate, I was inspired by a Catholic Pentecostal, actually,

40:52called Father Peter Hocken, who wrote kind of the definitive work on the charismatic

40:58renewal history in Britain. I don't know if you came across it, John. I do wonder whether it's

41:06slightly, I mean, this is why I've been very grateful with your stuff and Charles, because I feel that

41:11you've unveiled a lot of the warts and things like that. And you're right, a lot of the Pentecostal

41:18histories oftentimes don't draw attention to that. And that's a shame. And therefore, I think,

41:23you know, it does injustice. Nevertheless, he had this wonderful kind of paradigm, where he looked

41:32at Romans 9 to 11. And he said that the issue between the Jews and the Gentiles within the early

41:41Christian community is that the Jewish believers didn't recognize what God was doing amongst the

41:46Gentiles, and that they needed to change their mind and accept the blessing of what God was doing.

41:53But similarly, the Gentiles needed to take note from where they had come, as it were, the riches

42:00where they had come. They'd come through the Jewish community. They'd come through that rich history.

42:06And what he suggested is that oftentimes within the church's history, you will find movements

42:13that there's something good there that's coming forward. So let's take the Methodist revival,

42:20for example. I think most people can look back and say there was something positive coming through

42:26that. And the challenge, therefore, was for the older church to say, what here is good that we need

42:36to wrestle with and maybe incorporate? But similarly, those new movements need to never have the arrogance

42:42to think that they don't need to learn from what has gone before and the riches that are there.

42:49So there becomes this, you know, and so I think what he did for me with this paradigm was to ask

42:56myself, okay, what in the charismatic movement? What is it drawing attention to that actually could be good

43:05and right? But on the other side of it, they mustn't have the arrogance to think that this is all that

43:12there is. And this is, they need to look back at the church's tradition, because most things have

43:18happened again, you know, that they're just repeating themselves. But there may be some good things.

43:24And I think one of the great gifts of the charismatic movement, as far as I can see, is, well, there's two parts to this actually,

43:31because one's a negative and one's a positive, is that initially, it was the idea of empowering people for service

43:39and empowering the laity. And that was certainly, I think, at the root, not the big kind of platform,

43:47because I think the stream which you have, you've drawn attention to with Branham and the healing evangelists

43:53and stuff like that, that was not necessarily empowering for the laity. But I think within other

43:59parts of the charismatic movement, it was. That's my feeling. But the sadness is that it's often

44:09those platform ministries that get all the attention, because they're the ones on the Christian telly and

44:16all the rest of it. But I think there was an enabling of the laity much more as a result of

44:26the charismatic movement. And I wonder whether that's the case within early Pentecostalism as

44:31well. But having said that, I know there is a lot of dirt and there's a lot of rubbish in there as

44:38well. But maybe I'm just too optimistic. But having said that, I think I've seen the good and I've

44:49experienced the good. But I've also seen some really unhealthy and wacky things that I don't think

44:58were good as well. But I think if Paul was looking at the church in Corinth, he would say the same

45:03thing. Hey, there's good stuff here, but there's a lot of rubbish, too. So, I don't know.

45:09Yeah, I kind of think Paul would look at the church today, by and large, and say,

45:12all of you guys are just a mess. You know, what I see is the problem, and you hit the nail on the

45:19head, it's whenever you get in that mindset, you get to thinking of the other side as differently.

45:26I can't remember the exact words you use, but whenever you think of the liturgical church and the

45:31charismatic church, well, many of the charismatic people that I am friends with or people who are

45:37in the groups that I have, they have never, ever set foot into a church that wasn't of their mindset.

45:47I have. I've been in these cold, formal church services where the guy comes out in a robe, and

45:54he's got a choir behind him, and he starts reading, and you can tell that it's all rehearsed,

46:00and it's all static, and what he's saying is good, but there's no emotion whatsoever. It's

46:05completely, for me, having grown up in this mindset, it's completely dead to me, but I've

46:13been multiple times, and yet at the same time, there were aspects of it that I found that I

46:18liked way better than what I had came out of. There was good in some structure. It needed

46:24some structure, and so on the one hand, I can, I'm with you in that I kind of like a little

46:32bit of emotion whenever I'm around people. I don't want it to be dry and dead, but on

46:37the other hand, if you don't have structure, it's like a train with no tracks. If you don't

46:41have the tracks, well, where is your train going to go? So for me, there has to be this

46:46middle ground. There has to be this way to keep things into a format or a structure, and

46:52the structure usually in the charismatic Pentecostal circles is we're going to get the people into

46:57an emotional hype. We're going to introduce the Bible. Usually, it's just a Bible verse,

47:04and they're going to build a context around it. Sometimes, they'll go into a chapter, but

47:08then over the course of the next 45 minutes, I'm going to break them down emotionally so

47:14much that they feel like they're so low to the ground that they need somebody to pick

47:18them back up, and then I'm going to pick them back up. Once I realized that format,

47:24I started going to church services, and I started listening specifically to hear that format,

47:29and it's like somebody created an architectural design, and everybody bought it. Let's all

47:35break them down as far as we can break them down, and I realized I don't want to be broken

47:40down. That's not right to do that to my head, man. Don't do that to me, and I have a hard

47:46time. I've actually visited mainstream churches that had, you could clearly tell they had some

47:51influence from this type of movement because they followed the same architectural pattern.

47:55Break them down as far as you can break them, and then lift them up, and you're the savior at the

48:00end because you lifted them back up. It's just not right. There has to be some format that prevents

48:05this. Yeah, that's really interesting. That's very interesting. I mean, I'm sure you get some of

48:13this in the States as well, but some of the leading figures in the charismatic movement,

48:18I think of one who is very close to here where I am in Surrey. Have you come across David Pawson?

48:25Yeah. Okay. He was a Baptist minister,

48:31Methodist initially and then became Baptist, and very conservative evangelical, then had a charismatic

48:41experience and then became a leading kind of Bible teacher, but he was known for expository

48:47preaching. He would tend, if you went along to his church, he would be working his way through the

48:53Bible, and he's very highly regarded in that regard. So you would definitely find charismatic

49:01churches on this side where you would have expository preaching. You wouldn't feel,

49:07you weren't in anything but a sound evangelical church. But at the same time, there was always

49:16a space, possibly maybe in prayer ministry at the end of the service or anything like that.

49:22So on one level, it was just like a normal evangelical service, and sometimes liturgical,

49:28depend which denomination you were in, and the same kind of preaching.

49:33So I just think you can't paint all of charismatic churches as being of one ilk,

49:41because, yeah, they certainly aren't on this side of the pond. But I imagine that's the same over

49:48there as well.

49:49Yeah, they're not all the same here. When I say that, I'm usually referring to the ones that are more,

49:54I don't know, the more deeply impacted by the latter rain movement. You have this wide swath of

50:00charismatic Christianity that whether they recognize it or admit it or not, they have built

50:05upon that foundation. And they all match the same patterns. It's really the same. It's the same

50:10cult structure. Now, I have been to some, I've not traced deeply their backgrounds, but I've been to

50:16some that have a charismatic flavor. And they're not like, they're, they're much like you described.

50:21They're not like what I described. So there are some good ones out there. And I caution,

50:27I'm very careful saying that, because I'll get an onslaught of emails saying, okay, where are they?

50:32I want to go there. And I'm not, I'm not one to recommend churches. You, you find it on church.

50:38Yeah, no, I get that.

50:39Yeah, very, very careful. But yeah, that's a, that's interesting thought, because I, like I said,

50:46I wanted to have somebody who had a different opinion than me, because I wanted to discuss where,

50:50where is that middle ground? And you're, you're bringing it up pretty good.

50:54Yeah, no, I mean, there's some interesting, I mean, I, I feel certainly around where I am in

51:01England, there are the, some, some of the, the bigger charismatic flavored churches are actually,

51:08I would say, are quite strong and grounded within their preaching. And some of them,

51:16I think one near, near to me, which is a kind of independent, charismatic church, but it seems to be

51:23attracting people from all sorts of backgrounds. But I would say was quite deep in its spirituality.

51:32And rather than just really frothy, and everyone chasing after the next thing. So, yeah, and I know

51:41that's around as well. I mean, my goodness, I saw people just exhausted, you know, you know,

51:47chasing for the next revival. And yeah, I mean, that, that's got to be unhealthy.

51:52Have any of them tried to take dominion over your government? That's the real question here.

51:58Yeah, I think that's much bigger. And I do think that's much bigger in your, in your neck of the

52:03woods. I mean, the stuff connected to, to Trump and the prophecies and the rest of it. My goodness.

52:09Yes. Yeah. Thankfully, we, we, we haven't had that so much over here. I mean, I know, I know it goes

52:16on. I know it goes on. I did see one, something on YouTube, when I think this, this Pentecostal

52:26pastor was, was claiming that, I think Trump was going to be reelected as well. And he had great

52:33roles for Boris Johnson as well. And well, that didn't, that didn't happen. I'll tell you that

52:39much. I think the difference is in your neck of the woods, you have God save the queen. And over

52:43here we have apostle save the king. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, believe it or not, we've got a king

52:48now. Yeah, no, absolutely. Absolutely. And the other thing which I thought was interesting

52:56is how many of these movements tie in oftentimes to revelation, terrible interpretations of the

53:06book of revelation. I mean, I saw that sadly, because actually a lot of Irving stuff, I don't

53:11know. When I did my MA, I focused on his doctrine of spirit, you know, on the sinful nature of

53:18Christ, okay, which got him in very hot water. But I had a chance to read a number of his sermons

53:24and I thought, gosh, this is, this is, this is very rich. He's very good with words, you

53:28know, not, not your typical, it's maybe a bit unfair. Well, probably not actually, but

53:34not, not you, not your typical kind of Pentecostal preacher that there's, there's riches in here.

53:40But then, you know, I discovered that he had all sorts of funny things trying to tie into

53:46events that were happening in his day and age and tying it to revelation and then all the

53:52rest of it, which, yeah, seems, seems to emerge particularly within charismatic circles as well.

53:59Well, this has been incredibly fun. Tell everybody where they can go to find your book.

54:04You'll find it on Amazon. But it's, I have to be honest with you, I wrote it back in 2012.

54:11So I feel like I'm revisiting something, which, which is great. But it is, as I said, it was

54:18because of your podcast, but it's called Apostles Today, Benjamin McNair Scott. But it, as I said,

54:25I stumbled across you and I've, I feel like I've gone down that rabbit hole and revisiting all sorts

54:33of things as well, but really enlightening. And I think it's great that you're, you know,

54:38drawing attention to the warts because I, I do think that is, that is a lack. Having said that,

54:46there was, I don't know if you read, there was a gentleman who did a history of the vineyard

54:52movement. It's called the Middle Way. And it was, it was very, did you come across that,

54:58John? You did. But I thought it was very brave because they, they focused in, he focused in on

55:05Lonnie Frisbee and didn't hide any of that. And I thought, I thought that was good. That's the way

55:15that we need to do our histories. We've got to let, I mean, look at my church, Church of England,

55:20going back to Henry VIII and all the rest of it. Boy, we've got a dirty past.

55:24So, yeah, but we need to be honest with it. Well, thank you so much. I've been accused

55:32by many people of being the gatekeeper of all of the rabbit trails. So, but I've never ever been

55:39accused of the person who's bringing up the warts. So this is a new thing for me. Okay. Well,

55:44that's not fair because I, yeah, I hope you don't take offense to that, but I think, I think it's

55:50important because, you know, I, I, um, I'll be interested if you ever do stuff on Smith Wigglesworth.

55:58Um, uh, I know he's controversial in relation to some of his healing, so-called healing techniques,

56:05but, um, uh, I've, I've seen some of the dirt you bought, you know, you bought for John G. Lake and

56:11obviously, uh, William Branham. Um, but I'll be interested in some of these other characters who

56:16sort of are, there's so much hagiography around them. Um, yeah. And, and I think it's, you know,

56:24we're, we're all, everyone's got feet of clay, you know? And, um, I, I, if there was one other

56:32thing I, I, I have been deeply concerned about and I saw it the other day because, because I'm going

56:38to blame you again. Uh, but, uh, um, I was watching somebody online who was kind of, uh,

56:46proclaiming that he never taught, he'd never told a lie on this since he was born again and

56:50things like this. And, uh, and then a whole lot of people in his ministry team came out and go,

56:56yes, he does. I just think if, if anyone sort of thinks they're whiter than white or that any sort

57:04of luminary is in that way, that, that then we're walking into dangerous territory. Um, yeah,

57:11we're, we're going to get disappointed. Um, and if they were, we, you know, on one level,

57:16we wouldn't, we wouldn't need Jesus. Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for doing

57:20this. Absolute pleasure. Thank you for your time. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to

57:25share your story, you can check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org.

57:31For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation,

57:33you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle,

57:40and Audible.

58:10Thank you, Deus.

Charismatic Chaos or Spirit Led Faith? A Conversation on Balance | Benji McNair Scott | Episode 426

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