- 4 months ago
John and Chino explore the dark history and destructive consequences of Hobart Freeman’s radical faith healing doctrine. They trace its roots through William Branham, John Alexander Dowie, Gordon Lindsay, and F.F. Bosworth, showing how promises of guaranteed healing were built on twisted proof texts and false assurances. Along the way, they discuss real stories of believers who suffered without medical care, the devastating toll on families, and the legal battles that exposed the dangers of this movement.
They contrast Freeman’s formulaic “five steps to healing” with biblical accounts of healing, pointing out the inconsistencies and the blame-shifting tactics that left followers guilt-ridden and without help. The conversation also highlights the lasting impact on children raised in these environments, the cycle of guilt tied to salvation, and the modern continuation of these doctrines in ministries like Andrew Womack and Kenneth Copeland’s. The episode calls for both biblical clarity and honest reflection on lived experience as a way to expose the failure of faith healing extremism.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Faith Healing Loopholes and the Blame Game
03:12 Hobart Freeman’s Extreme View of Healing
06:03 Court Case: The Death of Pamela Meanie
11:02 Freeman’s Five Conditions of Faith
12:22 Gordon Lindsay’s Endorsement
13:21 Bosworth, Dowie, and the Roots of Healing Theology
16:42 Freeman’s Shift Against Medical Science
20:05 Modern Continuations of Freeman’s Message
24:40 Approaching Survivors of Freemanism
25:17 Biblical Interpretation and Proof Texting
28:11 Survivor Testimonies and Freeman’s Contradictions
32:01 From Dowie’s Sect to Freeman’s Cult
35:23 Cycles of Distrust in Medicine and God
37:06 The Bible vs. Freeman’s Message
42:45 Statistics: Medical Science vs. Faith Assembly
44:00 Testimony: 25 Years Waiting for Manifestation
47:22 Freeman’s Built-in Escape Routes
50:28 The Guilt of “Lack of Faith”
59:51 The Condemnation of “Sin in Your Life”
1:04:02 Sin, Faith, and the Christian Life
1:07:54 Grace, Faith, and Casting on Christ
1:09:10 Closing and Resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They contrast Freeman’s formulaic “five steps to healing” with biblical accounts of healing, pointing out the inconsistencies and the blame-shifting tactics that left followers guilt-ridden and without help. The conversation also highlights the lasting impact on children raised in these environments, the cycle of guilt tied to salvation, and the modern continuation of these doctrines in ministries like Andrew Womack and Kenneth Copeland’s. The episode calls for both biblical clarity and honest reflection on lived experience as a way to expose the failure of faith healing extremism.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Faith Healing Loopholes and the Blame Game
03:12 Hobart Freeman’s Extreme View of Healing
06:03 Court Case: The Death of Pamela Meanie
11:02 Freeman’s Five Conditions of Faith
12:22 Gordon Lindsay’s Endorsement
13:21 Bosworth, Dowie, and the Roots of Healing Theology
16:42 Freeman’s Shift Against Medical Science
20:05 Modern Continuations of Freeman’s Message
24:40 Approaching Survivors of Freemanism
25:17 Biblical Interpretation and Proof Texting
28:11 Survivor Testimonies and Freeman’s Contradictions
32:01 From Dowie’s Sect to Freeman’s Cult
35:23 Cycles of Distrust in Medicine and God
37:06 The Bible vs. Freeman’s Message
42:45 Statistics: Medical Science vs. Faith Assembly
44:00 Testimony: 25 Years Waiting for Manifestation
47:22 Freeman’s Built-in Escape Routes
50:28 The Guilt of “Lack of Faith”
59:51 The Condemnation of “Sin in Your Life”
1:04:02 Sin, Faith, and the Christian Life
1:07:54 Grace, Faith, and Casting on Christ
1:09:10 Closing and Resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, minister, and friend, Cheno Ross,
00:00:47pastor and the voice of the understanding scripture and truth by Cheno D. Ross YouTube
00:00:52Channel.
00:00:53Cheno, it's good to be back and to talk about faith healing gone wrong.
00:00:58I think, you know, from my own experience in dabbling in this faith healing religion for
00:01:0537 years, it seems like it works well for people that it works well for.
00:01:11For people that it doesn't work well for, well, they truly suffer.
00:01:16And, you know, I grew up in a family where multiple members of the family had chronic
00:01:22illnesses in a faith that was supposed to heal them of those illnesses, but also at the same
00:01:29time it came with this insidious thing that was like, I don't know if you've got these,
00:01:35you know, packages for your car and it gives you this fine print that says, we will honor
00:01:40every single thing on this warranty except for the things that are your fault.
00:01:45And they're basically putting a caveat so that they can get out of whatever, whatever
00:01:50happens as their loophole.
00:01:51Well, the thing about this faith healing religion was it gave a loophole to the faith healer.
00:01:58If it didn't work, it's your fault.
00:02:01Just like, you know, some of the things that I've, you know, some of the warranties that
00:02:05I bought it, it's your fault.
00:02:06You did this thing, not me.
00:02:08And so that's what the ministers are doing.
00:02:11Well, it's all fun and games until you're that person, because when you're that person,
00:02:17what it does to your mind, it just wreaks havoc because you think it's your fault.
00:02:21Oh my gosh, what did I do?
00:02:22I've done something wrong.
00:02:24God doesn't love me.
00:02:25And so instead of a biblical God that loves you, what you end up with is what we're talking
00:02:30about today.
00:02:31Yeah.
00:02:31Well, good morning, John.
00:02:33I've got a sweater on.
00:02:34It's chilly outside.
00:02:36We slept with all of our windows open last night.
00:02:39I think even Miss Jumpers is even in here trying to get warm.
00:02:45So that's why I'm bundled up in a sweater.
00:02:47We slept with the windows open.
00:02:48They're still open.
00:02:49And what a nice, cool fall morning.
00:02:52And two worlds are colliding because I'm wearing my shorts.
00:02:55It's not that cold, man.
00:02:57Come on.
00:02:57You're only 20.
00:02:58What?
00:02:58You're 30 miles from me, 45 miles from me.
00:03:01Yeah.
00:03:02It's really cool.
00:03:04And it's windy and chilly out here in the country.
00:03:07So we've really, really, really been enjoying it.
00:03:10Yeah.
00:03:11This morning, I would like to look at why Hobart Freeman's message on faith and healing didn't
00:03:17work as he said it would.
00:03:18Boy, it really came with a lot of promises.
00:03:21I think he had a lot of high hopes in his own mind.
00:03:24And whenever he began teaching this early in the 70s and late 60s, there were high hopes
00:03:31in everybody's mind.
00:03:33You can, I mean, he would just show up and it would be a Sunday evening or a Wednesday
00:03:38evening, or he was teaching on Sunday mornings back then.
00:03:41And he would say, the Lord has given me another message on divine healing.
00:03:47And everybody would be, praise God.
00:03:49They were so excited.
00:03:50You know, they're thinking, we're going to learn more about healing and because they
00:03:54could tell they didn't quite have it figured out because they still couldn't see and they
00:04:00still couldn't pass their driver's test.
00:04:02And so everybody is just trying to figure out what's going on.
00:04:09What is it about this message?
00:04:11As you said earlier, what is it that's not covered with the warranty?
00:04:15What is it that I'm not doing right?
00:04:21So, you know, Hobart had himself a fairly extreme view of faith and healing.
00:04:30He wasn't unique.
00:04:31There were people before him that had this.
00:04:34There are still people today that teach a relatively extreme view.
00:04:40And what I mean by extreme view is it's just always God's will to always heal you if you're
00:04:47a child of his all the time.
00:04:50And there are no exceptions to that.
00:04:53Hobart felt that was the right view and any other view would be a compromise.
00:04:59Anything less than that would be a compromise.
00:05:01He always said that all the promises of God in Christ are yes and amen in 1 Corinthians.
00:05:08And, but, you know, those verses were always out of context.
00:05:12We're not exactly for sure.
00:05:14Well, I do believe that whatever God has promised in Christ is definitely answered with a yes and
00:05:20amen.
00:05:21But what actually has been promised?
00:05:24You know, that's always the crux of the matter.
00:05:26Hobart, even to his dying day, believed that message of always God's will to always heal the sick.
00:05:39He would always say there are no exceptions to the promises of God.
00:05:43He didn't.
00:05:44Whenever it came time for his last breath, he was still believing that.
00:05:49As far as I know, the only time Hobart ever really fudged on his teaching of extreme faith
00:06:00and healing was whenever, and we've shared a little bit of this before, but it's interesting.
00:06:05He did fudge on it whenever it was time to talk to the judge in court.
00:06:11You know, he had been indicted and arrested and fingerprinted and booked over the death
00:06:20of Pamela Meany, a 15-year-old young lady who had died of kidney problems in Hobart's church.
00:06:28This young lady did not want any medical treatment.
00:06:33Her parents did not want to provide her any medical treatment.
00:06:36And all of this was done under the teaching of Dr. Freeman.
00:06:40You know, he had said, if you lean to the arm of the flesh, Jeremiah 17, 5, you put yourself under a curse.
00:06:47And he interpreted that verse to mean if you went to a doctor or use any kind of medication,
00:06:53then you place yourself under a curse.
00:06:55And if you do that, you're obviously in trouble with God.
00:06:58And so it was, you know, no medicine as far as they were concerned.
00:07:02And that is what Hobart taught.
00:07:04Well, he had, they had called a grand jury to determine, and what's involved with a grand jury
00:07:11is the district attorney wants to figure out the legal system.
00:07:17They want to determine, is there probable cause to do what we are about to do?
00:07:23So they called a grand jury, and they review evidence.
00:07:27They hear testimony.
00:07:28And the testimony had to do with the death of Pamela Meany, the withholding of medical, hospital, professional services for her.
00:07:41And even though she was in agreement with that, she's 15 years old.
00:07:45She's a minor.
00:07:46So that doesn't really count.
00:07:48It's, you know, what were her parents doing and saying?
00:07:50And her parents did not want to provide her any medical treatment because they wanted to follow Dr. Freeman's teaching.
00:07:56So the grand jury heard all of this evidence, and they felt there's enough, there's sufficient evidence to indict Hobart Freeman as the one who had taught the parents, who had taught the child this.
00:08:10So that's exactly what they did.
00:08:11He was arrested.
00:08:12And so just in a preliminary time before the judge, the judge before, you know, this is going to go to trial, and jumping ahead of myself, as everyone I think knows, Hobart died within a couple of months.
00:08:25So it never ended up going to trial as far as he was concerned.
00:08:28It did with the parents, and they were in trouble because they had broken a new Indiana law.
00:08:33But Hobart did fudge on his teaching because when the judge asked him, what is your belief, what is your teaching on divine healing, Hobart said something along the line of, well, it is our, he always said our, I want to include other people.
00:08:53He didn't just want to say my, it is our conviction in our church that Christ has provided healing for his people through his death on the cross.
00:09:04And if you just make that statement and nothing else, you know, you wouldn't be in any trouble.
00:09:12And there is, there is definitely some truth to that.
00:09:18Christ has provided everything in the atonement.
00:09:22Now, when are we going to realize all that he's provided?
00:09:25That is a separate question.
00:09:27But anything that we get, anything that we have has definitely been provided by Jesus' death on the cross.
00:09:34But the judge was smart enough to know that's kind of a general and vague answer, and he wanted to know a little bit more.
00:09:40So he wanted to know, well, what is it you actually teach?
00:09:44What do you teach?
00:09:45And you know what Hobart said?
00:09:46He said, well, I just teach people that they need to trust the Lord.
00:09:51And he said, well, but do you teach them that it's a sin to go to the doctor?
00:09:57And Hobart wouldn't answer that question.
00:09:59And he definitely did teach that.
00:10:02And that's why people didn't go to the doctor.
00:10:04But he knew the kind of trouble he would be in.
00:10:07And he said, that's for every man to decide on their own.
00:10:11We simply teach the general biblical doctrine from the pulpit.
00:10:14We lay it out there that Christ has provided your healing in his atonement.
00:10:19And it's up to every man and woman to decide on their own.
00:10:24And I've looked back on that and thought that was very, well, it was just cowardly on Hobart's part.
00:10:33And had that gone to trial, they had all of his tape recordings.
00:10:36They would have simply played the tape recordings and you could figure out, you know, who was telling the truth and who wasn't.
00:10:42And Hobart definitely taught that it was a sin to go to the doctor.
00:10:46So what was his view?
00:10:47His view, John, was that all sickness would be healed on all occasions for all of God's children at all times, if they meet the conditions.
00:11:00So it was a big blanket, all sickness.
00:11:04You know, he said there are no exceptions to the promises of God, but there are conditions.
00:11:09So he'll heal all sickness all the time under all circumstances for all of his children without the use of medical science and drugs, if you will meet the conditions.
00:11:21And what are those conditions?
00:11:24Well, he provided those in his little faith pamphlet, five conditions that you've got to base your faith on the word of God.
00:11:33Then you've got to claim it, confess it, act on it, endure it.
00:11:37It was, you know, a faith formula theology.
00:11:40It was definitely healing on demand that you had to base your faith on God's word.
00:11:44You had to find a promise in the word of God and claim it.
00:11:46Then you have to claim it.
00:11:48Then you have to confess it to everyone.
00:11:50You have to go around making a positive confession.
00:11:53Then you have to act on it.
00:11:54You have to act as though you believe you have received.
00:11:58And then here's the big critical one.
00:12:00You have to endure to the end.
00:12:03Endure to the end means waiting for however long of a period of time.
00:12:09And I don't know if people realize this.
00:12:11I'm not for sure if you realize this, John, but I want to say this because of your connection to William Branham.
00:12:18And that is, guess who wrote the little forward or the little introduction in the original copies?
00:12:27I don't know if the current editions of the book have the forward as was in the original ones that all of us have.
00:12:36But guess who wrote the little forward?
00:12:39Gordon Lindsay.
00:12:40So it shows right there.
00:12:43We know Gordon Lindsay was tightly connected to William Branham.
00:12:47He was William Branham's crusade director at some point in William Branham's life.
00:12:51So I'm simply saying this to say the following, that for Gordon Lindsay to have written the forward to the book that God will heal all sickness all the time, no need for medical science if you meet these five conditions, means that Gordon Lindsay and that whole camp of the Pentecostal charismatic movement had to have agreed with what Hobart was saying.
00:13:15It was a big movement.
00:13:17And there were a lot of men and women who were in agreement in helping to spread this thing.
00:13:21And whenever William Branham started back in the – he started much earlier than the 40s, but whenever Latter Rain began in the late 40s, he was being mentored by F.F. Bosworth, who we've mentioned was out of the John Alexander Dowey's Zion City.
00:13:38Well, Bosworth had this book called Christ the Healer, which was very popular among the movement.
00:13:44It was basically the handbook on divine healing.
00:13:48There's a section – I think it's from that book.
00:13:50It's either that book or one of Bosworth's other writings.
00:13:53There's a section of why all are not healed.
00:13:55And basically, it puts the onus of the healing on the individual who's seeking healing from the healer.
00:14:04And the way it spells it out is just so wrong because, you know, if you read his book just by the text, it's kind of okay.
00:14:12But if you read it in the context of the movement, the movement is teaching you basically that you need to come into an auditorium to a so-called healer.
00:14:20And if you're not healed, then what's wrong with your faith?
00:14:23Examine yourself.
00:14:24You must have something wrong in your life.
00:14:26Do you have sin in your life?
00:14:28Do you have something wrong that's causing you not to be healed?
00:14:31And Bosworth, like Dowey, like all of the rest, they were trying to say that salvation is part of the atonement.
00:14:39And therefore, as part of the atonement, if you're not getting healed, you really have to question your salvation.
00:14:45Are you really saved?
00:14:46That's the bottom line that they're driving at with this.
00:14:50And where I'm headed with this, it's interesting because if you go all the way back,
00:14:53and I've mentioned this before, go back to Dowey, Dowey was doing the same thing.
00:14:58He was the prototype for all of this.
00:14:59And he, like Hobart Freeman, went to court over this, had been preaching for, I mean, from coast to coast, that if you go to a doctor, you have sin in your life.
00:15:13You're neglecting the almighty healer God.
00:15:17And so, therefore, you must not be a Christian.
00:15:19That was his doctrine.
00:15:21And he was saying that you can't take medicine if you do.
00:15:24You're going straight to hell.
00:15:26I mean, that was the doctrine that he was spreading.
00:15:29Well, the moment he gets in court and they ask him on this, well, no, I never said that.
00:15:34That's up to the individual.
00:15:36The same exact thing that Hobart Freeman did.
00:15:38Wow.
00:15:39Well, you know, and we've documented this, John, that earlier in Hobart's ministry in the late 60s and early 70s, he had a friendly attitude toward medical science because he would bring on board as proof or support for his view, medical doctors who were charismatics and who were friends of his.
00:16:07And he would do the same with insurance agents and loan officers and, you know, whomever he could find because he would say, look, I've got medical doctors who are friends of mine and they'll cut on you and they'll pollute your body with drugs.
00:16:23But they pray for their children and for their spouses and for themselves.
00:16:28In other words, that's like that would be a really great testimony to find a doctor who will practice medicine on people who have no faith, but for himself and for his own family, he would trust God.
00:16:41Hobart was big on that early in his ministry.
00:16:43But as time went on, he took this really aggressive anti-medical science position, and I have wanted people to see that Hobart did transition from a friendly attitude toward medical science to a very aggressive one later on.
00:17:03Now, maybe they would say, well, Hobart just got more light.
00:17:07I don't know what their explanation would be, but it's interesting that he did evolve.
00:17:13He did evolve on so many things.
00:17:15And so I've wanted people to see it's not as though Hobart was some oracle of Delphi, that he was the mouthpiece of God that always spoke the truth.
00:17:25You know, he learned and fell short, and then, according to him, came into some additional knowledge and new revelation.
00:17:34And the new revelation was just, you know, how bad drugs and medical science were.
00:17:39And he, in his later years, just became increasingly hostile.
00:17:44So hostile that people who had medical degrees and worked in the medical field, in order to be a member of Faith Assembly in good standing, you had to kiss all that goodbye.
00:17:56Nurses had to give up their nursing certificate.
00:18:00It got so bad that if you worked in some type of medical supply field, or let's say you were just a receptionist at a veterinarian's office or a dentist's office, all of that came under the condemnation of Dr. Freeman, because he said, you are supporting medical science.
00:18:25And you are, you know, you're supporting what he would call, he always called it the arm of the flesh.
00:18:31You know, cursed is a man that trusteth in man and maketh flesh his arm.
00:18:36That's Jeremiah 17.5.
00:18:39That was one of his favorite verses.
00:18:41Cursed is a man that trusts in man and makes flesh his arm.
00:18:46But that's a verse that has to be studied in his context and that has to be reasonably interpreted.
00:18:54Hobart is the one.
00:18:55Who's stuck on there that the correct interpretation of that is medical doctors, because when it said cursed would be the man that trusts in man, well, we all trust in men.
00:19:05I trust that the grocery store will be open when they say it's going to be open.
00:19:08I trust that the milk they're selling me is certified and won't kill me.
00:19:13Everything I do in my life, I trust in a man.
00:19:17You know, I trust in the stoplights that they will work when they're supposed to work.
00:19:21And some man set all of that up.
00:19:23I'm constantly trusting in men.
00:19:26Most of my life is involved in trusting a man and leaning on someone's arm of flesh, which would include if I were about to fall off the front porch and you were nearby, John, I would reach out and grab your arm of flesh and try to hold on to it to steady myself.
00:19:45So are all of these things in opposition to that verse?
00:19:49Well, of course not.
00:19:51Of course not.
00:19:52So it's just Hobart's standard proof texting method.
00:19:58You know, find a verse and hang your hat on it and ride on that until the cows come home.
00:20:04Hobart's not the only one out there that believe this.
00:20:07There are other people.
00:20:08I think there's a minister in I think there are a lot of ministers, by the way, that they will teach this.
00:20:14I don't know that they will practice it in their own life.
00:20:17You know, whenever it comes time to die, you're probably going to seek medical help.
00:20:23But Andrew Womack out, I think he's in the Colorado area.
00:20:27He's a guy who spouts out this same kind of stuff.
00:20:30All the people who followed Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland over the years, and there are still those people out there, they're still going to teach some form of this message.
00:20:40They're going to teach most of this message that healing 100% is in the atonement, and it 100% is guaranteed for you, and it will 100% work for you.
00:20:54Therefore, you don't need doctors and medical science.
00:20:56I know of someone, let me just share a couple of stories to show you how and to alert people to the fact that it is still happening under the influence 40 years later of Dr. Freeman's ministry.
00:21:13But I have a friend, let's say, and I won't name any of these people's names, who had a relative who just died in the last few weeks.
00:21:26And this relative died of some conditions, some of which, none of which were medically treated, because this person absolutely refused to his last breath to, on his own initiative, seek any kind of medical help or aid at all.
00:21:48Even though, even though this individual went through extreme pain and suffering, this individual was still saying, I believe that I'm healed.
00:22:03And this individual actually died of several things that had they been treated years ago when they were first discovered, I'm not saying the person wouldn't eventually have died or eventually have died from something.
00:22:18Or from one of these, but would not have gone through the pain or from one of these, but would not have gone through the pain and probably would have lived longer.
00:22:25And I know another person, this is an entirely different person, a friend of mine who also has a relative, who also was going down that same path of refusing any medical treatment at all.
00:22:41And were they getting any better?
00:22:43No, they were getting worse.
00:22:46And their prayers had been to no avail so far, and they were down to death's door, and they probably would not be alive today.
00:22:55But family members were finally able to convince this individual that you're going to die if you don't go to the doctor.
00:23:02And so they end up going to the doctor.
00:23:04And I don't even know, John, exactly how all of these people process that, because you have stood firm by faith for years.
00:23:15I'm talking about, you know, a decade waiting for the manifestation of this healing, and it's not coming.
00:23:22And now you end up at the doctor.
00:23:23And I think people process it differently.
00:23:27I know of some people who processed it.
00:23:30It's in this weird, somehow they're able to compartmentalize everything, that where this same person who had been very critical of other friends and relatives around them who had ever gone to the doctor.
00:23:43I mean, very critical.
00:23:44Like, well, we'll pray for you because we know that you sinned, and we'll pray for God to forgive you.
00:23:50Now this person is at the doctor's office.
00:23:53How are you going to deal with that?
00:23:56You have so judged everyone else around you, critically saying, we'll pray for you because you've sinned.
00:24:04How are you going to process this?
00:24:07Seems like they're able to somehow compartmentalize it.
00:24:10And I don't know exactly how this works psychologically because they don't really see themselves as a great sinner as they did everyone else who went to the doctor.
00:24:21Now it's their turn to either die or live.
00:24:25And in order to live, you've got to go to the hospital.
00:24:27And so they go to the hospital, and somehow, I don't know how they're able to do it, but they're able to rationalize it.
00:24:35So how do we approach these people?
00:24:38How do we approach the people who are still following Freemanism, who are still following Branhamism, who are still following Andrew Womack?
00:24:50How do we approach them in our objection to what their belief is?
00:24:57Well, there are two ways to do it.
00:25:00There are two ways to do it, biblically and experientially.
00:25:07Look at the experience of the people.
00:25:10And I don't think that we really should separate these.
00:25:13I think they really need to go hand in hand.
00:25:15I think they should be used together.
00:25:17But let's start with the biblical side.
00:25:19So this involves biblical interpretation.
00:25:23And so what happens when we attempt to approach them, if they'll listen at all, and most of the time, they simply will not listen,
00:25:32is you end up having two parties who simply disagree over how to understand a certain passage in Scripture.
00:25:40Maybe it's 1 Peter 2, with his stripes we are healed.
00:25:43They believe that that means that this is divine healing, always promised for all believers, all the time, right now.
00:25:52With his stripes, 1 Peter 2, 24, by his stripes we are healed.
00:25:57So one way to approach these people is to try to engage them in the correct interpretation of Bible passages.
00:26:10And it doesn't always work.
00:26:13What I would encourage everyone, and that's including me, we all have to be open to listening to another person if they can present a reasonable interpretation or a reasonable explanation of a passage.
00:26:32For some reason, people just think you either have to know all the truth today, or if not by today, you need to at least know it by tomorrow.
00:26:41And there's just a whole lot in the Bible to learn.
00:26:44You know, there are, we've got, what, 66 books of the Bible.
00:26:48There's 1,000 pages in anybody's normal-sized Bible.
00:26:52There's a lot of material there.
00:26:54There's a lot of information there.
00:26:55There's a lot of stories about people being healed.
00:26:59There's a lot of teaching about healing.
00:27:02There's a whole lot of information about faith and healing.
00:27:05And Hobart thought he had it sewed up by stringing together just some Bible verses.
00:27:12Yeah, it reminds me the way he would do Bible verses when we were kids.
00:27:17My mom, we loved to feed the birds in the backyard.
00:27:20We'd cook a big bag of popcorn, and then you'd take a needle and thread and thread all that popcorn through the needle onto the thread, and then go hang the thread on the tree in the backyard.
00:27:34We would thread the popcorn on there, and you have all these pieces of popcorn, and the birds would just fly into the branch, and they would pick off their pieces of popcorn.
00:27:42That's almost the way proof texting works.
00:27:46You just run the needle and thread through all of these verses.
00:27:49In other words, you pull the verse out of whatever the context is in which they're found, and you just line them up side by side.
00:27:56And when you do that, you have a whole lot of verses.
00:27:59You know, you can end up with dozens of verses that make some claim about faith or healing, but it doesn't mean that you understand any of those verses.
00:28:08You know, John, last week you and I interviewed a lady, Liz Schella, who is a survivor from earlier days at Faith Assembly, and I know you're going to air that at some time in the future, but one of the things we were talking about, one of the problems that she had had years ago and that I had as well, was Hobart's understanding of Hebrews 11.1, where he said,
00:28:32faith is the substance of what you're praying for.
00:28:37We just thought that that was, that his understanding of that, that the writer of Hebrews did not mean to give a formal, full, complete, I've got all my bases covered, all loose ends tied up, theological definition of the concept of faith or the Greek word faith, that it is simply a statement that he then goes on to illustrate.
00:29:01But Hobart would put that on that thread, on that fishing line with all those other little pieces of popcorn, and you would just look at it and go, wow, so it must be true.
00:29:13But that's not the way these things work, and we have spent a little time earlier, John, just trying to look at the healing message, the way it was taught by Hobart, as compared with and contrasted with the way we see it in the Bible.
00:29:29And we've spent some podcasts earlier along the line of, look at the types of things that were healed.
00:29:38Hobart was always praying for the soreness in someone's back or the stiffness in their leg.
00:29:45It would be all of these invisible, internal, small issues, or if they were big issues, they were issues we couldn't get our hands and eyes on, we couldn't verify.
00:30:00And I said, just take that approach and just lay it side by side with the Gospels in the book of Acts.
00:30:06And what we see in the Gospels in the book of Acts are just absolutely astounding type of healings of blind eyes, not people who have a little bit of fuzzy vision because they still have a sleeper in the corner of their eye.
00:30:21They are blind from birth.
00:30:22We just have outstanding miracles happen.
00:30:25And when they pray for these people, how long, this is my big question and has been for years, how long did it take before those people were healed?
00:30:37Well, as we discussed earlier, John, either instantly or immediately.
00:30:42If it didn't happen like that, it happened as they went and washed, then they came seeing.
00:30:49As the 10 lepers went to show themselves and present themselves to the priest for the verification of the cleansing of their leprosy was somewhere between when Jesus said, you're healed.
00:31:01Now go show yourself to the priest somewhere between where he was and where the temple was somewhere in that on that path between where he was standing and where the temple was.
00:31:12That's where they were healed.
00:31:13Hobart loved to pull those verses out of context and say, see, sometimes there's a delay in healing.
00:31:20And I just laughed at it.
00:31:21I thought, yeah, there's a delay of like five minutes or 10 minutes, but there's not these years of delay.
00:31:29The years of delay that these people have that Hobart had built into his view of divine healing because he knew it wasn't going to happen the way it happened in biblical days.
00:31:42So we've already looked at that.
00:31:44And I think those are some pretty good things people need to consider.
00:31:47Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
00:32:00You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:32:08On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:32:22You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:32:29If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:32:35And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:32:42On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:32:46Where this divine healing cult went from Daoi was so unusual because after Daoi's many, many complications with the legal system, people began to realize that you can't deny people going to a doctor.
00:33:02That's not only is it illegal in the United States, it's just completely wrong.
00:33:07You should never do this.
00:33:08And many of the branches of the Daoi sect started allowing this, but discouraging it.
00:33:15And if you study the ancient, you know, the ancient Bible verses about healing, which you and I have talked about this some, Paul says, drink a little wine for your stomach.
00:33:27Back then, that was the medicine, right?
00:33:29They did not have Tylenol or all of the, you know, Tylenol for your headache and medical medicines for your stomach.
00:33:37Like, the way that it progressed is so odd because they tried to enforce many of the old covenant laws and they tried to read that through the new covenant.
00:33:48But as they're doing that, they tried to bypass anything that talked about the healing of the ancient world.
00:33:56So it got a little odd.
00:33:58Fast forward to, you know, years later after this cult started to allow people to have medicine.
00:34:05It's really odd because I was around some of those people and if they had a condition and they were allowed to go to the doctor, they would go to the doctor.
00:34:14And if the condition did not get better or worsened, well, the doctor was a quack.
00:34:20And so then they'd go try another doctor.
00:34:22And not understanding the medical profession and medical science, how treatment sometimes takes years or sometimes even decades to go through the treatment process, they want an immediate thing.
00:34:34And if the doctor can't give it immediately, it doesn't match their religion, which is teaching the immediate healing from Almighty God.
00:34:42So now they're trying to put both of those, they're trying to equate, well, if I can't go to Almighty God for my healing and I'm going to the doctor for my healing, well, the doctor needs to be as powerful as Almighty God or I'm going to go back to Almighty God.
00:34:56But then when they did, some of the conditions they went back for, they still didn't get healed.
00:35:01So it turned into this weird, vicious cycle where they don't trust the medical science of the world.
00:35:09But if you really think about what's going on in their heads as they make that circuit, then they also must not trust the healing of Almighty God, because then they did go back.
00:35:20And in that, you've got Hobart Freeman slightly more, I don't know what the word is, he's a little bit more upright in, well, we can't keep doing this.
00:35:30We can't keep making this vicious cycle.
00:35:32Nobody who was in the movement and remained in the movement thought about it long enough to think about and critically examine themselves.
00:35:44Am I reading these medical passages correctly?
00:35:48Am I really to expect God to do this?
00:35:51If so, why did Paul say, take a little wine for your stomach?
00:35:54Why do the Bible passages talk about all of the different things that you can do for healing of mind and body?
00:36:01And if you study the ancient customs and the ancient world, why did they allow some of the things that they did, which was the medical science of their day, not to be matched with the medical science of today?
00:36:14So where you end up is you're in this weird place where you really don't trust God when you're in the movement.
00:36:20Otherwise, you would never go to a doctor because you're supposed to be healed.
00:36:24You go to the doctor because you're not getting healed, and therefore you must have sin in your life.
00:36:29If the doctor fails, rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat over and over and over again.
00:36:35And in the end, you know, people on the outside are looking at it at all of this saying, you know, the real definition of insanity is when somebody keeps trying the same exact thing and expecting a different result.
00:36:46Yeah, there is a level of craziness to this.
00:36:51And that's why I say, as you just said, John, I think there's a wrong interpretation of these Bible passages.
00:36:58So as I'm saying, there are two different ways to approach our objection to Dr. Freeman's extreme view.
00:37:09One is through the scriptures, and I think that is critical because it is the Bible that is our handbook.
00:37:16I think these passages have definitely been misinterpreted, but, you know, people want to squabble.
00:37:24Well, I think my interpretation is right, and you think your interpretation is right.
00:37:28And I say, okay, we can just lay that aside for the moment.
00:37:31We can lay that aside for the moment, and then let's go to plan B.
00:37:36Let's look at the experience.
00:37:38Let's look at the experiential side.
00:37:43And what do we see?
00:37:45It didn't work, and it hasn't worked for all these years.
00:37:52Now, I'm not saying that some people weren't healed.
00:37:55I'm not saying that.
00:37:56I believe some people were healed.
00:37:58I have never said that God doesn't heal today.
00:38:01I believe God still does heal today.
00:38:03I believe God still does heal miraculously today.
00:38:07I just don't believe it's the healing on demand as the faith preachers have taught it.
00:38:15And so one of my biggest proofs, and maybe my biggest proof, we can, here's my Bible.
00:38:22We can take our Bible and close it and lay it down because we have all these arguments
00:38:27over Bible interpretation for the moment.
00:38:30For the moment, we can close our Bible and lay it down, and we can just turn to experience.
00:38:36We can turn to the statistics.
00:38:38And, you know, Hobart was big.
00:38:39He loved, you know, it's interesting.
00:38:42Hobart loved to quote statistics.
00:38:43He loved to quote, I don't even know where he got these, either Newsweek or Time or Reader's
00:38:49Digest, because those were his three go-to sources for research.
00:38:55But he loved to quote medical research statistics that would say, he did this, John, over and
00:39:03over.
00:39:04He would say, now, it's just come to my attention, or he'd say it like this.
00:39:08Well, it's just come across my desk recently, or he'd say this.
00:39:11You know, I have in my file some articles that give the miserable track record of medical
00:39:19science.
00:39:20And he would read a story of someone who had gone to have something done to their left
00:39:28arm or their left leg, and instead, they got their right arm or their right leg operated
00:39:36on.
00:39:37And he would say, you know, that's the track record of medical science.
00:39:40You can't trust those people.
00:39:43And everybody would be saying, hey, man, that's right, Brother Freeman, preach it.
00:39:47And can you believe you went to the hospital, and they operated on the wrong limb?
00:39:54Or they would get, a person would get sewed back up after surgery.
00:39:58Hobart would tell stories like this.
00:40:01And some foreign object, you know, a scalpel or scissors or galls or something was sewed up
00:40:07inside them.
00:40:08And he would give that as his statistic, his proof against medical science.
00:40:15And come on, you know, look, has that happened?
00:40:20Well, I'm sure that's happened.
00:40:22Have you ever gone to a mechanic shop?
00:40:26Actually, this has happened for me.
00:40:29Gone to a mechanic shop to have your oil changed, and they forget to put the drain plug back in.
00:40:35Has that ever happened?
00:40:36That has actually happened to me.
00:40:38You had a set of tire, a new set of tires put on.
00:40:42And did they forget to tighten down the lug nuts on one of those tires?
00:40:46That actually happened to my mother when she was driving one of my vehicles down a highway,
00:40:52and the front left tire literally came off and just took off, beat her down the highway.
00:40:57But how many times does that happen?
00:41:01You know, probably that happens more often than a surgeon operating on the wrong limb.
00:41:08So has it happened?
00:41:09Of course, you went in to have the left leg operated on, the doctor operated on the right.
00:41:15But one in several hundred thousand, right?
00:41:20I mean, that would be the statistics.
00:41:22So those aren't statistics you can bring against medical science.
00:41:27I mean, you just can't.
00:41:28That's one in several hundred thousand where those things have happened.
00:41:33Are doctors human?
00:41:35Yes.
00:41:36And humans make mistakes.
00:41:37They will always make mistakes.
00:41:39But they have a pretty good safety net and safeguard system around medical science,
00:41:47better than your mechanic tightening down the lug nuts on your tire, I'm for sure.
00:41:53But let's compare Dr. Freeman and his group's statistics on people who've gotten their healing after they're prayed for.
00:42:01It doesn't even compare with the medical statistics.
00:42:05The medical statistics of going in and having an operation performed on the wrong limb are one in hundreds of thousands.
00:42:14I don't know what the statistics are.
00:42:16Someone can Google that.
00:42:18Let's go look at the faith assembly statistics.
00:42:22And they are very, very poor.
00:42:24How many of those people were prayed for, for healing of their eyes, their kidneys?
00:42:30It's cancer.
00:42:31It's a lump.
00:42:32It's this, that, or the other.
00:42:34And they walked away from the prayer line with that condition still there.
00:42:39That'd be the vast majority.
00:42:42The vast majority.
00:42:44So let's look at this.
00:42:45This is what I'm asking people to do.
00:42:48Lay your Bible aside for a moment.
00:42:50And let's look at the actual statistics and what do we have on our hands.
00:42:54Let me just read.
00:42:55I got a text this week from a dear brother.
00:42:59He's an ex-faith assembly person.
00:43:01He's actually an ex-faith assembly minister.
00:43:06So it makes it even better in my book.
00:43:10He was a minister, if I remember his story correctly, of three separate groups at the same time that this brother would travel around to and minister to.
00:43:24He was what I call an all-inner.
00:43:28He was all-in.
00:43:29If Hobart taught it, he was all-in.
00:43:32And so he is not all-in anymore.
00:43:36And he's not all-in.
00:43:38And by the way, he is, and I appreciate him doing it.
00:43:42He's listening to these podcasts, and I think, I don't know that he's learning anything.
00:43:46Maybe he is, maybe he isn't.
00:43:47But I know it's confirmation and verification for some conclusions that he probably reached at an earlier point in his life.
00:43:56But we were talking earlier this past week about Freeman and his healing message.
00:44:03And here's what he texted me.
00:44:05He said, yeah, we were told this line, I'm healed, but I'm waiting for the manifestation.
00:44:12What in the name of the Lord does that even really mean?
00:44:18Well, it's done.
00:44:20I'm healed.
00:44:21You just can't see it yet, but you have it by faith.
00:44:24Here's his testimony, John.
00:44:27He said, you know, I went 25 years without glasses, waiting on my manifestation.
00:44:39My bosses at work, along with a lot of my family and others, thought I was nuts.
00:44:44And he says himself now, I was nuts.
00:44:49They were right.
00:44:50Waited 25 years.
00:44:52That's a third of your life.
00:44:54You want to talk about someone who believed what Dr. Freeman taught.
00:44:58He doesn't believe this way anymore.
00:45:00But someone who believed what he taught, there goes a third of your life not being able to see.
00:45:07Because according to Freeman's doctrine, when you pray, that's when you receive.
00:45:11When you believe, you receive.
00:45:12And you're just waiting for the manifestation.
00:45:15He said, Cheno, I was driving around with 20, 100 vision and 20, 200 vision.
00:45:22And at first with no insurance.
00:45:26Because, you know, insurance, that's leaning to the arm of the flesh.
00:45:30So these poor people are put in a situation where either they can't drive at all or they're going to drive illegally because they can't see.
00:45:42They can't pass their driver's test.
00:45:43They can't have a license.
00:45:44But I need to get to work.
00:45:46They're going to drive in another illegal fashion because it's a sin to trust in man.
00:45:53And that's all insurance is, is confessing something may happen.
00:45:57So I've got to buy insurance to protect myself in the event something does.
00:46:02And so I can't do that because that would be sinning.
00:46:05But I need to drive to get to work.
00:46:07And so I drive with no insurance.
00:46:10And these people had homes with no insurance on them at all because insurance is a lack of faith.
00:46:16Insurance is saying, well, something might happen.
00:46:19They never saw that in Hobart's teachings, even the Hobart didn't have insurance.
00:46:25He was broken into.
00:46:26He was robbed.
00:46:27His car, he had many wrecks.
00:46:29His car was totaled.
00:46:31His claiming Psalm 91 didn't prevent those events from happening.
00:46:36The difference between him and them was he had plenty of money so he could just go out and buy a new car.
00:46:42I heard of some ministers who came into some money.
00:46:46And the first thing they did is they went out and bought a big lead sled, you know, because that was back in the 70s.
00:46:53That's the big Lincoln or big Cadillac or a big Olds 98, a big lead sled.
00:46:59That was proof that you were God's man of faith and power for the hour because you're driving around a big luxury car.
00:47:06I know one minister who bought it, he didn't have it a month and he wrecked it.
00:47:11He had no insurance.
00:47:12So whoever the people were that gifted him with the money to go buy that, now everybody's out the money.
00:47:20They're out the money and he's out the car.
00:47:23So, look, you know, you can debate all you want to over Bible verses.
00:47:29But right now, what we're telling you are the facts that the message didn't work, hasn't worked, won't work.
00:47:37But you know what? Hobart was clever.
00:47:40This goes back to how you started this podcast today, John.
00:47:43Hobart was clever.
00:47:44He built into his faith for healing theology a neat set of backdoor escapes.
00:47:52And his backdoor escapes would work like this.
00:47:55He would tell you, now, you've prayed, you've received it by faith.
00:48:00Now go, his crazy five steps, now go confess it and act on it and endure it.
00:48:06It's just you've got to do the steps.
00:48:08You've got to do the steps.
00:48:10One, two, three, four, five.
00:48:12You've got to go do the steps.
00:48:13And so what?
00:48:15People would go do the steps.
00:48:16And, oh, man, would they confess it?
00:48:18They'd confess it to their dying breath.
00:48:20And they would act on it by canceling their insurance and throwing their medicine away.
00:48:25And they would endure by faith.
00:48:27And how long do you expect them to endure?
00:48:29This man waited 25 years.
00:48:32His vision was no better because I don't think there's anywhere in the Bible that God promises
00:48:37he's going to correct your 2,100 vision or your 2,200 vision.
00:48:42So they've endured as long as they can.
00:48:46And so now what do they do?
00:48:47Guess what happens?
00:48:49Now the blame game kicks in.
00:48:51Hobart built into his theology just in case, because he had seen in his own life, it didn't work.
00:48:57But just in case, he's got people coming saying, I've done it all.
00:49:01Brother Freeman, I have prayed.
00:49:04I have fasted.
00:49:05I have confessed.
00:49:06I have acted.
00:49:09My actions correspond to my faith.
00:49:12I'm not living in some way that's, I'm not wearing glasses while I'm believing God to heal me from my poor vision.
00:49:19My actions are corresponding to my faith.
00:49:22And I have endured.
00:49:23So shouldn't this invalidate the message?
00:49:29To me, it should invalidate the message.
00:49:32But oh, no.
00:49:33Now the blame game kicks in.
00:49:34And so Hobart had in his back pocket his little list.
00:49:38And his first one, you mentioned it earlier in this podcast, his first one is he would simply tell the people,
00:49:46the reason you have not received is you lack faith.
00:49:50So here, these people have listened to the faith message from Hobart Freeman for years.
00:49:57And they've never received the answer.
00:50:01They've never gotten the new house or the perfect 2020 vision or the hernia has disappeared or the cancer is gone or the kidney disease is now evaporated.
00:50:15My kidneys are well and whole and healthy and functioning normally.
00:50:19Now they're told, however, you just don't have enough faith.
00:50:27And, you know, people, people have struggled for years with this thought of guilt.
00:50:33Why is it God hasn't healed me yet?
00:50:37Rather than question the message, which is what they should be doing, is what they should have done all along.
00:50:43Rather than question the message, Hobart trained them to doubt themselves.
00:50:49Rather than doubt him and doubt the message, what he trained them to do was to doubt themselves.
00:50:56And if people ever get to the place where they finally do end up going to the doctor,
00:51:03they only do so with great guilt and with great condemnation.
00:51:09He linked this faith for healing to faith for salvation.
00:51:15He most definitely did.
00:51:16And you've mentioned this before and you said it again earlier today.
00:51:20He would reason something like this.
00:51:23If you can't believe God for the healing of your two eyeballs, then how do you know you can believe God for your salvation?
00:51:35And people would go, hmm, yeah, that does make a lot of sense.
00:51:39How can I know that?
00:51:40You know, he would throw out these things like, God who created the universe, surely God can heal your eyes.
00:51:50Let's don't limit God.
00:51:51God who created the universe, well, you know, of course that's true that God can do that.
00:51:57It's not can he do it.
00:51:59Is this his will to do that?
00:52:02We're not questioning his ability at all.
00:52:05And he would do it with a rapture.
00:52:07He would say, are you sure you have enough faith for the rapture?
00:52:11He talked about rapturing faith.
00:52:13Are you sure you have enough faith for the rapture?
00:52:16If you can't believe for a simple headache, how do you know that you're healed?
00:52:20Or how do you know that you're saved?
00:52:22And how do you know that you'll go up in the rapture?
00:52:25I just want to point this out when it comes to him, John, saying a lack of faith.
00:52:30That, unfortunately for Hobart, in his own teachings, he also contradicted himself here.
00:52:37And he made some major mistakes in his theology because he would tell the story of people who
00:52:43would come to him and who would genuinely say, Brother Freeman, I'm listening to all these
00:52:49messages of faith and I just don't know if I have enough faith to believe.
00:52:55And here goes Hobart to his own chagrin with his proof texting method.
00:52:59He would take him over to Romans 12 and verse 2.
00:53:05Is it 12-2 or 14-2?
00:53:08One or the other.
00:53:10That God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.
00:53:13And he would say, God has given to every Christian the measure of faith.
00:53:19And then he would work his way along in this reasoning here.
00:53:23Well, how much is a measure?
00:53:24How can I be sure if my measure is big enough to accomplish the task at hand?
00:53:31And then he would work his way in his theology to his next point he would want to make.
00:53:36And he would say, well, remember, Jesus said that the smallest amount of faith you could
00:53:43possibly have is a mustard seed.
00:53:46That's the smallest of the seeds that you would plant in your garden.
00:53:50And what will that amount of faith do?
00:53:52Well, if you only have a mustard seed of faith, you can say to this mountain, depart and be
00:53:59thou removed, and it would obey you.
00:54:02So that was good news to the person that came to him, was it not?
00:54:06The person who said, I don't know if I have enough faith, he would say, well, God's dealt
00:54:09to every man the measure of faith.
00:54:11And even if your measure of faith is only so small as a mustard seed, it would do the
00:54:16impossible.
00:54:17So now how can Hobart then turn around to this same person and say, the reason that you
00:54:24don't have your healing is you don't have enough faith?
00:54:27You know, it just doesn't work this way.
00:54:29Hobart, he had built in some escape routes for his faith formula theology, but unfortunately,
00:54:37he had also contradicted himself in some of his earlier teaching.
00:54:41And it put people in a tremendous state of condemnation and of guilt and of questioning
00:54:50themselves.
00:54:52How can I not have received my healing when he has said, if you have enough faith, you
00:54:59will?
00:55:00I would go on to also say, John, and I'll be quiet and let you say what you want to say.
00:55:05I would go on to say they need to keep their eyes on Dr. Freeman and his lack of ever having
00:55:13been healed of anything that he claimed that he was healed from.
00:55:18His leg was still short.
00:55:20He couldn't see any better.
00:55:22His hair was graying and thinning, and he was never healed of his heart condition.
00:55:27And the one thing that really bothers me above and beyond all of this is the effect that it
00:55:34has on the children, whenever the children are taught the absence of self-esteem and they're
00:55:41raised like this, their ambitions become very, very low.
00:55:46And I have had the opportunity of being around some of the cult people since we've left.
00:55:52The adults take it okay.
00:55:55They usually, eventually they build up self-esteem through experiences.
00:55:59But the children are like wandering, struggling, trying to open up and just can't when compared
00:56:08to other children of their same age.
00:56:10And so it's as though their growth gets hindered by decades raised in this type of environment.
00:56:17And at the same time, the adults who suffer with the health issues, whether it's physical,
00:56:24mental, whatever it is, and continue not to be healed, but be continually told that it's
00:56:32your fault.
00:56:33You have, you should have low self-esteem because this is on you.
00:56:36This is your fault.
00:56:37That's the doctrine they're in.
00:56:39Well, those people get set back even further.
00:56:41And I know adults who have not really progressed much beyond where they should have been at around
00:56:48age 18 mentally.
00:56:50They just can't progress because they're in that state.
00:56:53They'll never get the same chances at self-esteem that other people raised outside of the cult
00:56:58get.
00:56:59And when you compare the two, yes, both can have good lives.
00:57:03Yes, the adults can eventually learn and grow past this.
00:57:07But why would you hinder people of a fulfilling life when they could have it, even if they're
00:57:12sick?
00:57:12For me, that's the big deal.
00:57:14There are people who have chronic conditions, but could at least have a better life than they
00:57:19currently have.
00:57:20And the cult robs them of that.
00:57:23At the same time, you know, I'm like you.
00:57:26There's nothing that says that God stopped healing in the Bible.
00:57:30I don't find this anywhere.
00:57:32But also, there are people in the Bible who did suffer and some who did die.
00:57:38And there's nothing in the Bible that says God doesn't use that for the benefit of other
00:57:42people.
00:57:42And why would you rob people around them of the experience if that is to be the experience?
00:57:49I don't understand how it works.
00:57:50I don't understand why this would be.
00:57:52But you have to take a step back and say, I'm not thinking about this correctly.
00:57:57There's something wrong with my worldview.
00:57:58If I think that every time I rub the rabbit's foot God, I get healed.
00:58:04And that's in the end, that's all it is.
00:58:06It is a rabbit's foot God.
00:58:07You do have to step back and look at this from you just have to look at the bigger picture.
00:58:12And so I'll close with a second reason Hobart would give.
00:58:15He had two really famous ones.
00:58:17One, you lack faith.
00:58:18The other one you've already mentioned as well, because this is just what you see in
00:58:24these circles.
00:58:25It's very evident that the message doesn't work.
00:58:28And so since the message doesn't work, you have to have excuses.
00:58:32And the second one, if the person says, no, I have faith and I can check off all those
00:58:37boxes.
00:58:38I've confessed.
00:58:39I've acted.
00:58:39I've endured my faith.
00:58:41Well, then you must have sin in your life.
00:58:43And he would go to a verse like, I think it is Psalm 66, 18.
00:58:52Again, Hobart was an expert at proof texting.
00:58:57He had a great and an unusual ability to string together a vast host of Bible passages to support
00:59:10whatever his theory, not just faith and healing, whatever it was.
00:59:15But the verses are always out of context and not always.
00:59:20They are most of the time out of context and they just can't be put together to fit a complete
00:59:28biblical picture.
00:59:30So the verse in Psalm 66, 18, I think says, if I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will
00:59:37not hear me.
00:59:38And so Hobart would use that verse to say, if you have sin in your life, then that could
00:59:46be the reason God has not manifested your healing.
00:59:51And again, think of the guilt that this puts on people.
00:59:57Think of the condemnation this puts on people.
01:00:00And it is not a bad thing to encourage people to practice introspection.
01:00:05We should.
01:00:06We should look at our own life and look for any shortcomings in our life.
01:00:14There's nothing wrong with that.
01:00:15The Bible encourages that.
01:00:17But what Hobart is doing is he's wanting to tie immediately together some sin in your life
01:00:25and your lack of being able to drive without glasses, being able to go past the vision test.
01:00:31And, you know, I think among other things, this just severely underestimates the pervasive
01:00:41nature of sin in our own life, in all of our lives, because the way Hobart had it, it's
01:00:47almost as though if you can get all sin out of your life, then you can be healed.
01:00:53Because he's sending you down these endless trails of trying to determine, what have I
01:00:59done wrong?
01:01:00What sin is in my life that's preventing this healing from happening?
01:01:05Now, is it occasionally possible that a person could have something wrong in their life and
01:01:10why God has not answered their prayer?
01:01:12Well, yes, that's possible.
01:01:14And there are biblical examples of that.
01:01:16But this was a constant practice of faith assembly people to check, am I prayed up today?
01:01:24Do I have enough faith on the one hand?
01:01:26And on the other hand, do I have any sin in my life?
01:01:30I can answer that question.
01:01:32Yes, you do have sin in your life.
01:01:34Do I have sin in my life today as I'm sitting here?
01:01:38My answer would be yes.
01:01:40And if you don't say yes, you don't understand the pervasiveness of sin, even in the Christian's
01:01:46life, go read Romans chapter 7, where Paul said, the things that I would do, I don't
01:01:51do.
01:01:52The things I don't want to do, I do.
01:01:54Who will deliver me from this body of death?
01:01:58Go read Romans 7.
01:02:00And you see, there is a real struggle happening in the Christian's life.
01:02:06And yes, you're not supposed to be out robbing banks and committing adultery.
01:02:10If you're doing those things, you're sinning and you need to bring those to an end.
01:02:14But sin is more pervasive than that.
01:02:17If you go to things like the Westminster Catechism and confession of faith, I think it might define
01:02:23sin, something along this line, that it is any want of conformity to the law of God.
01:02:31It's any want of conformity to the law of God.
01:02:34To the law of God.
01:02:35That is in commission, things we commit, and omission, things we fail to do.
01:02:43Just go to the Bible and what does the Bible tell you to do?
01:02:48And then ask yourself, am I doing this?
01:02:50If you're not, then you've probably got some sin in your life.
01:02:54Does the Bible say to always rejoice?
01:02:57I think there's a verse that says rejoice evermore.
01:03:01Do you do that?
01:03:02Do I do that?
01:03:04Probably not.
01:03:05So there's one sin in my life.
01:03:08There's one commandment I'm breaking.
01:03:10Does it say to pray without ceasing?
01:03:13Without ceasing, does it tell you to do that?
01:03:15Is that an apostolic commandment?
01:03:18Yes.
01:03:19Do you do that?
01:03:20Probably not.
01:03:23So there's another sin in your life.
01:03:26Look, John, sin is pervasive in the Christian's life.
01:03:29We don't get to the place in this life, and this could and probably will, by the way, take
01:03:36us to additional podcasts of Hobart Freemanism, where he did have a very weird view on Christian
01:03:44perfectionism, where he would say in so many words that you can get to the place where you
01:03:51don't have sin in your life.
01:03:52Look, that's greatly overestimating our own piety, and it's greatly underestimating the
01:03:59power of sin and Satan and the world in the Christian's life, and that is definitely for
01:04:05another podcast.
01:04:07But if he is telling people, maybe you're not healed because you've got sin in your life,
01:04:13he's obviously, by implication, expecting that you can ascertain what that sin is or those
01:04:22sins are, and you can root them out of your life.
01:04:25So in other words, maybe he's saying you can't be healed until what?
01:04:31Until you don't have any sin in your life?
01:04:33Come on.
01:04:34That's not the biblical message for divine healing at all.
01:04:37The one thing we can say about Jesus is, no, Jesus did not heal every person, but every
01:04:48person that Jesus prayed for got healed, you know?
01:04:52And I think we could say the same thing about the early church.
01:04:55Did the early church, did the early apostles, did the early sub-apostolic ministers, people
01:05:01like Philip over in Acts 8, who was not an apostle, but he was an evangelist, did the early church
01:05:06and its ministers, did they heal every single sick person?
01:05:11No.
01:05:12But according to the record we have, every single sick person they prayed for got healed.
01:05:18And we do not see that with Faith Assembly's message.
01:05:22We do not see that with Hobart's message.
01:05:25Not only do they not heal everyone, we wouldn't expect them to, but they don't heal hardly any
01:05:32of the people that they pray for.
01:05:34So, let's keep this in mind.
01:05:39I don't think that it's a lack of faith why people haven't been healed.
01:05:43I don't think it's because there's some uncovered, yet-to-be-uncovered sin in their life,
01:05:50and God is not going to heal them until they eradicate all sin in their life,
01:05:57because I don't think that's going to happen on this side of heaven.
01:06:03And I'll close with this, John.
01:06:05I remember hearing Dr. R.C. Sproul, Dr. Sproul Sr., not Jr.
01:06:10Dr. Sproul Sr. has always been a favorite biblical scholar and pastor and theologian.
01:06:18Alistair Begg was another one.
01:06:20Dr. Sinclair Ferguson, who's still alive, a Scottish theologian, is another one.
01:06:25Because of their vast and deep theological and biblical knowledge, and also because of their
01:06:32personal piety.
01:06:34You know, you can have a lot of theological knowledge and, you know, live like the devil.
01:06:38I'm not really interested in following somebody like that.
01:06:42Or you can have a great personal private walk with the Lord and know nothing about theology
01:06:47and the Bible, and I'm not too game for that.
01:06:50I would like to see both of these.
01:06:52And so, you know, one thing Dr. Sproul would talk about when it came to sin in the believer's
01:06:57life, he would ask his listeners, what is the greatest commandment according to Jesus?
01:07:05And, you know, we would all respond because we know that it's in the Gospels.
01:07:10That's to love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and strength.
01:07:14That's the greatest of all the commandments.
01:07:17All the commandments could be summed up with that, and it's a fellow commandment to love
01:07:21your neighbor as yourself.
01:07:23But Dr. Sproul would then ask people to consider, have you done that?
01:07:29Are you doing that?
01:07:32And I would look at myself and say, there's not even a consecutive 24-hour period of time,
01:07:41I'm sure, than I have ever loved the Lord Jesus with all of my heart and soul and mind
01:07:48and strength.
01:07:50And so, you know what?
01:07:51If I haven't, I failed.
01:07:52I failed God.
01:07:54That's the whole message of grace and Christianity and the whole message of the cross.
01:08:00There's no way we can earn our way.
01:08:03Pre-being born again, post-being born again, there's no way.
01:08:07We can earn or curry good favor with God.
01:08:12We are who we are, and He accepts us through the death of His perfect, sinless Son, the Lord
01:08:20Jesus Christ.
01:08:21And we just have to cast our life and our faith and our cares and our concerns on Him, knowing
01:08:28that God accepts us through Him, not for our own sake, but for the sake of His own Son.
01:08:36So I don't have to go through my life worrying, do I have enough faith and have I rid myself
01:08:43of enough sin so that I can be pleasing to God?
01:08:48The answer to both of those questions is probably I don't have enough faith and I probably still
01:08:52have too much sin.
01:08:54But what I can do is constantly cast myself on the mercy of God and say, Lord, please be
01:09:01merciful to me, a sinner, through your Son, the Lord Jesus, and I believe that He will
01:09:07accept us on that basis.
01:09:08Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out
01:09:11on the web.
01:09:12You can find us at william-brannum.org.
01:09:14For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
01:09:19from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:09:31Please visit us at www.FEMA.gov.au.
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