- 1 week ago
John and Christian discuss their personal journeys out of cultic and authoritarian church cultures and the challenges of finding authentic Christianity. They explore how politics, tribalism, and tradition often replace the simple call of Jesus to love others, and why many churches fail to welcome and nurture broken people. The conversation highlights issues like dualistic thinking, superficial love-bombing in charismatic circles, the exclusion of honest questioners in traditional churches, and the need for genuine biblical worldview formation. They also share personal stories of disillusionment, struggles with belonging, and offer hope that empowering ordinary believers can bring renewal.
00:00 Introduction
01:03 The Cult Mindset and 1950s Christianity
03:06 Music, Message, and the Lost Mission of the Church
05:05 Maturity, Milk, and the Problem of Seeker-Sensitive Churches
08:00 When Preaching Offends the Lost
10:21 The Politics of Modesty and Moral Policing
13:04 Dualism and the False Divide Between Good and Evil
16:26 The Us-Versus-Them Christianity
19:14 How Pagan Dualism Shaped Modern Faith
22:19 Weaponized Literalism: Reading the Bible Like a Switch
25:26 Honey or Vinegar? Why Love Still Works
27:07 A Better Way: Jesus Versus the Political Church
28:57 Commercial Break / William-Branham.org
29:58 Healthy Church or Toxic Church? Measuring the Signs
33:09 Charismania and the Burden of Perfection
37:00 Where Do Broken Christians Belong?
38:38 Lovebombing and Hatebombing in Charismatic Churches
41:00 Tradition, Questions, and the Fear of Change
45:01 Fundamentalism and the Problem of Literalism
47:22 What’s the Solution? Returning to the Words of Jesus
50:57 The Missing Generation: Why Churches Don’t Empower the Young
53:32 Reforming from Within: People Hold the Power
55:19 Power, Politics, and Stagnant Faith
58:22 Conclusion and Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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00:00 Introduction
01:03 The Cult Mindset and 1950s Christianity
03:06 Music, Message, and the Lost Mission of the Church
05:05 Maturity, Milk, and the Problem of Seeker-Sensitive Churches
08:00 When Preaching Offends the Lost
10:21 The Politics of Modesty and Moral Policing
13:04 Dualism and the False Divide Between Good and Evil
16:26 The Us-Versus-Them Christianity
19:14 How Pagan Dualism Shaped Modern Faith
22:19 Weaponized Literalism: Reading the Bible Like a Switch
25:26 Honey or Vinegar? Why Love Still Works
27:07 A Better Way: Jesus Versus the Political Church
28:57 Commercial Break / William-Branham.org
29:58 Healthy Church or Toxic Church? Measuring the Signs
33:09 Charismania and the Burden of Perfection
37:00 Where Do Broken Christians Belong?
38:38 Lovebombing and Hatebombing in Charismatic Churches
41:00 Tradition, Questions, and the Fear of Change
45:01 Fundamentalism and the Problem of Literalism
47:22 What’s the Solution? Returning to the Words of Jesus
50:57 The Missing Generation: Why Churches Don’t Empower the Young
53:32 Reforming from Within: People Hold the Power
55:19 Power, Politics, and Stagnant Faith
58:22 Conclusion and Closing Thoughts
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Christian Thomason,
00:00:46the host of Sanctum Artifact.
00:00:49Christian, it's good to be back, and just to let you know and to make your head swell
00:00:53just a little bit, we got so many people asking for more and more of Christian.
00:00:57I don't know if you watched it in the comment feeds, but people keep saying, bring him back,
00:01:01bring him back.
00:01:03Maybe because for my strange German accent.
00:01:06Maybe, I don't know.
00:01:07Like, I too, I am just mesmerized by the accent, and I'm thinking the same thing.
00:01:12I want more.
00:01:13Bring him back.
00:01:15But more than that, the subject matter, like the perspective you're giving, it's talking
00:01:20about the subjects that we have here in the United States, but it's from another viewpoint
00:01:24into it, and I think really that's what is attracting people because they have, they've
00:01:30looked at this box, and they've looked at the front side of it, and they can see and
00:01:33feel something's just not right here, but all they see is this one side of it, and then
00:01:38you're looking in from the right side.
00:01:39And I have other friends from the UK, they're looking in from the left side, and some people
00:01:45from the back.
00:01:46Each way you look into it, if you only look from your own perspective, you look at it and
00:01:52you think, something's just not right here.
00:01:54But now combine all of those perspectives, and something surely is not right here.
00:01:59Christianity is, it's a, I don't know if you have this phrase in Germany, but here in
00:02:03the United States, we say, this is a dumpster fire.
00:02:06It means basically, this is where you put your trash, and somebody set it on fire, and
00:02:10it's a stinky mess.
00:02:12That's what it has turned into.
00:02:15And you and I were talking about music before this, and just to clear the air, I'm going
00:02:22to say it, and I'll make everybody offended.
00:02:24Whenever I left, when I left the Branham cult, which played mostly the old hymns, because they
00:02:32were stuck forever in the 1950s mindset.
00:02:36So they're wearing the 50s clothes, the 50s music is being played.
00:02:40And I remember somebody coming into church playing the new music, and we were all like,
00:02:45what is that?
00:02:47We don't like, that's not holy, that's not good music, man.
00:02:51And we couldn't put our finger on what was wrong, but you and I were just discussing Christian
00:02:55music today.
00:02:57If you are a musician, it's terrible.
00:02:59It is absolutely terrible.
00:03:03And to tie this to what we're going to be talking about today, I'm a musician, I'm a
00:03:09songwriter, actually have not toyed with songwriting in several years now, but as I was leaving
00:03:15the Branham cult, there was this constant theme.
00:03:18I've mentioned this before on the podcast.
00:03:21I kept, in my songs that would come out, and they were coming one per day, two per day,
00:03:26so many, I did not even write them all down.
00:03:30The themes were such as things like this, why are we preaching to the saved?
00:03:35Should we not be preaching to the lost?
00:03:38Meaning, we're preaching sermons that are designed for people who are already Christian,
00:03:43and nobody is appealing to the people who aren't Christian.
00:03:46That was one of the themes that kept going through my head constantly.
00:03:51And in fact, as I was transitioning out of the cult and into mainstream churches, it was
00:03:57something that I was greatly offended by, because one of the churches we first attended after
00:04:03leaving, the sermons were offensive if you were not a Christian.
00:04:08And I say that not as a person who wasn't.
00:04:12When I was going through this, I was putting myself into the position of somebody who was
00:04:17new to Christianity so I could learn more.
00:04:20And I was listening to just derogatory statements about somebody who did not believe in the
00:04:26same way that the church did.
00:04:27And I realized that, you know, this is not a good thing.
00:04:30This is not the way that Christians should behave.
00:04:33Yeah, I think there is a biblical standpoint from which you can develop a view to say that
00:04:45there are different target groups or different levels of education.
00:04:52I think Paul would say quite briefly, different levels of maturity, like the example with bread
00:05:00and milk, right?
00:05:02But if you do that, you have to be careful to don't drive it to a point where it becomes
00:05:14stupid marketing, marketing, a marketing-driven church, a seeker-sensitive, that's an American
00:05:22term, yeah, seeker-sensitive church, yeah.
00:05:24That's the problem that can develop from there.
00:05:28Um, I have a very personal view on this because, um, after I disconnected from my charismatic
00:05:39environment, I was sad about the things that happened, the broken relationships, um, the
00:05:47mistakes I made in those relationships.
00:05:50Um, and I asked myself, um, why is there no program for Christians that just start, that
00:06:01are just at the start, um, of the journey that, that don't need, you don't need to tell those
00:06:09persons, uh, start to, um, memorize verses, start to memorize scripture, read the Bible.
00:06:16No, these, these, these, um, people need more like conceptual education, um, the concept of
00:06:24a worldview, what is a worldview, your entire thinking about yourself, your identity, um,
00:06:32your personality in the world, in a worldly environment, uh, is mixed up of many different
00:06:40concepts, uh, you go to a yoga class, you enjoy ballet, you enjoy classic, let's say rock music
00:06:49and rap music.
00:06:50And all of those, um, all of those are mediums and all those mediums, uh, translate, transport
00:07:00world views and concepts of thinking in them about life, death, uh, worth of life, um, love
00:07:09truth.
00:07:11Yeah.
00:07:11Those are concepts if they are not filled with a, uh, uh, biblical, um, kind of view.
00:07:19So the first thing I thought that a new Christian has to learn is to develop a biblical world
00:07:30view, to measure everything around you and everything you think for yourself, your old
00:07:34thinking, your old self by a biblical worldview.
00:07:38And that's the hardest part.
00:07:39It's not hard to memorize verses and quote scripture, um, but to, yeah, develop a biblical worldview
00:07:49that's quite more complex than that.
00:07:52Absolutely.
00:07:53And I'm going to make the statement, another offensive statement as a person who has experienced
00:07:59this becoming, I consider my past as I was a Branimatic, I consider this not a Christian
00:08:05and yes, we did preach about Jesus Christ.
00:08:09We talked about Jesus Christ, but just simply using the name Jesus Christ doesn't mean you're
00:08:14Christian.
00:08:15There are a, like you said, worldview, but there's a set of behaviors.
00:08:20So in Branimism, it was much like the religions that we, um, the denominations of faith that
00:08:27we attended afterwards that were mainstream in that I mentioned they were preaching against
00:08:33people who were unsaved.
00:08:35Okay.
00:08:36That's, that's quite contrary to Christianity.
00:08:38Why would I, this is my number one target group.
00:08:43People are not saved.
00:08:44Absolutely.
00:08:46Absolutely.
00:08:46I just had this conversation with Laura Lynn, but what happened in Americanized Christianity?
00:08:53It, it merged with politics.
00:08:55And if you watch how politics work, politicians, they don't want people to vote for the other
00:09:01side.
00:09:01So they start talking very negatively about the other party.
00:09:05Uh, some cases, uh, in fact, the local, I, I shut it off when I see the local news and
00:09:11they bring up politicians, it's actually more negative about the other person than it is
00:09:15positive about the person promoting themselves.
00:09:18Yeah.
00:09:18And so I attended services where, for example, one of the themes was the Pentecostal dress style.
00:09:27I got to thinking towards the end of my time in the cult, this man is preaching against
00:09:33women who are not wearing the Pentecostal dress attire, like a scarf, headscarf, not really
00:09:40the scarf, but so in Pentecostalism in America, I don't know if it's the same way in Germany,
00:09:45they have trained the people to believe that the flesh that God gave them, the skin is evil.
00:09:52And that if men look at the skin, the skin is evil.
00:09:57So, and especially if you're female, you can't look at female skin.
00:10:00So they have the long flowing dresses, the long, some, some groups, even you can't show the arms.
00:10:06You have the long sleeves.
00:10:07Other groups are more progressive.
00:10:09You can show part of the arm.
00:10:11In the Branham cults, it had progressed to where you could not show even your ankles or your shoulders.
00:10:17So the women had to have, you know, all of this covered.
00:10:21So we were hearing these sermons where, you know, the women, they hear this thing and they
00:10:27go, oh my gosh, I'm naked in front of the men.
00:10:29So they start changing their clothing styles.
00:10:32Well, you look around the congregation, there's not a single female who is violating this rule,
00:10:37but the minister is just preaching against it Sunday after Sunday after Sunday.
00:10:42And it becomes so repetitive, much like the music discussion we had, where you're hearing
00:10:49the same thing and you're not actually preaching to the people who are in your group.
00:10:54You're preaching at the people who aren't dressed in the way that you believe is the correct
00:11:00godly way.
00:11:01And in fact, you're preaching in a very offensive way.
00:11:05If a new convert were to come into the building who is showing part of their ankles, and you hear
00:11:11my grandfather would say, they're wearing scandal skirts, they're showing their ankles.
00:11:15Basically, it was a hint that they were prostituting themselves.
00:11:20That's what my grandfather was doing.
00:11:22Yeah, sure.
00:11:22So you have somebody who's new Christian come out on the streets.
00:11:26Well, they've never heard that their ankles are prostitution.
00:11:29This is just not the way people think.
00:11:31So you're preaching at somebody else.
00:11:34I left the Branham cult, and it was much the same way in modern Christianity in America.
00:11:40Not every sermon.
00:11:42Some of them were grace-filled, good sermons.
00:11:43I'm not going to lie.
00:11:45But then they would mix this with the theme that if you don't do as we do, speak as we
00:11:51speak, sometimes dress as we dress, you are offensive to me, and I will condemn you from
00:11:58the pulpit.
00:11:59That was a theme that is common among many of the churches.
00:12:03And so as I'm trying to balance what is Christianity, what is the worldview a Christian should have,
00:12:10and I'm reading things where Jesus is sitting with the prostitutes and the tax collectors,
00:12:15which this was very offensive in that day, if you understand the culture.
00:12:19He's sitting with the people, the outcasts, the ones nobody else wants.
00:12:26He's sitting with the people nobody wants, and he's not offending them, or they would
00:12:30all leave, because why would they sit there?
00:12:33So I'm learning that Americanized Christianity has mixed with this political aspect of denounce
00:12:39your enemy, because if you do, it makes the ones who are with you stick with you all the
00:12:45more.
00:12:45Yeah, let's take the example with the Pharisees.
00:12:50Jesus wasn't attacking the person in particular, but their wrong view of God.
00:12:57So he's attacking their wrong concept of God, their wrong worldview.
00:13:01And when you were talking about symptoms of bad Christianity, like the wrong clothing,
00:13:12too much skin is shown, etc., pp., then a guy like me, who's a bit more major in his Christianity,
00:13:19is immediately thinking, okay, that's a concept of dualism, like good and bad, black and white.
00:13:28A concept of dualism stems from a gnostic worldview, so there's gnosticism in it already.
00:13:39But to develop those kind of cascades and thinking, you have to have a mature worldview,
00:13:46and you must be able to make a difference between a strict biblical worldview and gnostic
00:13:52worldview, atheistic worldviews, you name it.
00:13:56There are countless worldviews out there.
00:13:59That's a huge problem.
00:14:02And very interesting for me is that this energy of scandalism that drives many people when they're
00:14:11watching TV or when they're gossiping in their everyday chat with their friends.
00:14:18I can make a good example because there's a huge outrage here in Germany right now because
00:14:24Trump wasn't allowing Israel to take the Gaza Strip.
00:14:31I don't know if you saw it.
00:14:33So he wasn't allowing Israel to take the Gaza Strip.
00:14:34So all the Germans that were former pro-Trumpers were like, oh, he's evil.
00:14:40He never did what he saw.
00:14:41So I'm always like, guys, he is not a Christian.
00:14:46Why are you thinking he must show Christian behavior?
00:14:50He's not a Christian.
00:14:51We can't expect.
00:14:52Yeah, expect is the right word.
00:14:53Why are you expecting Christian behavior from non-Christian persons?
00:14:58Yes, okay.
00:14:58He believes in the concept of God and he shows himself with some evangelistic persons, but
00:15:04that doesn't mean he's Christian.
00:15:06And first and foremost, he's a politician, and that's what he does.
00:15:12So he brings everyone to a table.
00:15:14He makes an offer to the, let's say, Islamic groups, and now he wants to make Israel another
00:15:23offer to him.
00:15:24So that's how politics work, and people are demonizing him for his standpoints.
00:15:28But he's a politician.
00:15:29He's not a Christian.
00:15:30He doesn't owe you any Christian values.
00:15:32So people have this illusion of moral behavior from persons that are not Christian.
00:15:42And even in a, let's say, Christian society as a whole, there are a lot of people who show
00:15:52good behavior, but not because they want to show this behavior, but because they are restrained
00:15:58by the society.
00:15:59If they don't show this kind of behavior, they can't take part in society.
00:16:04So society itself is restraining those evil persons, not because they are not evil.
00:16:09They are evil, and they are just pretending to be morally good to reach their goals.
00:16:15So another kind of thinking concept you have to apply when you are thinking about why people
00:16:22behave the way they are.
00:16:24You said so much there that really wants me to, makes me want to open up, because this
00:16:30is a feeling that I've had.
00:16:32The worldview of Christianity today, especially in America, is such that it has become so offensive
00:16:40if you're non-Christian that you start despising the worldview of the Christians.
00:16:47And what I mean by this is, it has developed into a way where the Christians have taught,
00:16:55they've been taught basically to hate anything that is not of them, anything that is not Christian.
00:17:01But they've been taught subtly.
00:17:03They use the words, love your enemies, love, you know, don't hate the sinner, hate the sin.
00:17:10And they've used these terms, but whenever it is applied, they're not applying it in the
00:17:16way that they're using those correct terms.
00:17:19They often will despise somebody who has rejected or does not believe what they believe.
00:17:25And in fact, in some cases, they just outright scorn very publicly.
00:17:30That mindset, that worldview that it's us versus them has embedded itself deep into American
00:17:35Christianity, in so much that whenever people ask me, are you a Christian, the very first
00:17:41thought that comes into my head is, oh my gosh, now they've asked me the question.
00:17:46I have to quickly determine, are they a Christian?
00:17:50And then I have to determine, okay, what breed of Christian are these people?
00:17:55Are they the breed who despises the people who are not of them?
00:17:59Because if they're using the word Christian like this, I want to say, no, I'm not like you.
00:18:04So, if they're the ones who love, basically it comes down to this.
00:18:09You are a Christian if you are a follower of the words of Jesus.
00:18:14If you are a follower of the political mindset that has entered in Christianity, in my opinion,
00:18:19you're not a Christian.
00:18:21But, sadly, it has the Christian label.
00:18:24So, now you're thinking, well, there are two types of Christians.
00:18:28There are those who are the followers of the words of Jesus, who would love the sinner,
00:18:31sit down with the prostitute.
00:18:34Then there are those who would never let somebody like this, who they despise, come into the
00:18:40church.
00:18:41I've been in churches where people were just ejected from the church because of the way that
00:18:45they dressed or behaved or even who they were.
00:18:49So, the question comes, are you a Christian?
00:18:51And I have to second guess, what type of Christian are they?
00:18:54And it comes down to exactly what you said.
00:18:59It is dualism.
00:19:01They see themselves in like the universal fight between good and bad.
00:19:07Absolutely.
00:19:07Between the light and the dark, right?
00:19:09Absolutely.
00:19:11I was fascinated with the ancient mythologies when I left the religion we came from because
00:19:16I was still in that mindset that it can only be good or evil.
00:19:20There is no in-between, and if it was not Christian, it must be this demonic thing that's developing.
00:19:27And so, I was in this world of angels or demons, dualism, exactly like you're saying.
00:19:31And as I'm starting to study what is the pagan religions, how they believed, how they thought,
00:19:38you have Thor and Loki, and you have the good versus – and it's primary good, primary evil,
00:19:43right?
00:19:43There is not, in many of the ancient cultures, there was not a consideration for the areas
00:19:49in between.
00:19:51And then I entered into new modern Christianity, and I'm seeing the same thing.
00:19:55It's literally an us versus them mentality.
00:19:58And that's basically, basically, all of them are interchangeable because there are false
00:20:03dilemmas in their sense.
00:20:05There are false dilemmas.
00:20:06So, it's not the question, is it good or bad?
00:20:09Is it light or dark?
00:20:10Or is it left or right?
00:20:12Yeah, Democrat or Republican?
00:20:13The question is, is it biblical or not?
00:20:16And even then, even then, if you apply biblical standards to your life, you will always be
00:20:25shaitan.
00:20:26You can't reach the glory of God.
00:20:30That's because you need Christ.
00:20:32So, the real Christian is like some kind of idealist who wakes up in the morning and says,
00:20:40I want to follow Christ, and is saddened in the evening because he couldn't hold up to
00:20:45those standards.
00:20:46He is aware of that.
00:20:48But despite the consciousness of, I can't meet God's standard, he's trying every day
00:20:56and has a conscience for those persons outside of Christianity, for them, it's even harder
00:21:04to reach those standards.
00:21:06So, being a Christian is not only about knowing what is, in those terms, right or wrong, but
00:21:14knowing you can't be a perfect person.
00:21:18So, don't expect other persons to be perfect when even you, as a Christian, can't reach
00:21:25those standards.
00:21:26What I am seeing, the people have been manipulated to even view the Bible and their religion
00:21:32in this very black or white way.
00:21:35You said, go to the Bible.
00:21:37Well, that's really good if you understand what that means.
00:21:40And sadly, a lot of people don't.
00:21:42They go to the Bible as though it is an on or off switch.
00:21:47And what I mean by this is, and you can see actually this in the comment feeds, they will
00:21:52say things like, I'll have a guest, for example, and they'll talk about their church.
00:21:56And they say, in our church, we do this ceremony thing as our tradition.
00:22:01And it's something simplistic.
00:22:03You know, maybe it's a candle.
00:22:04I don't know what it is.
00:22:05But you watch the people in the feed say, where is that in the Bible?
00:22:09That's not in the Bible.
00:22:10And they have no idea that most of the things that they do in their church also isn't in
00:22:16the Bible.
00:22:17But they've been taught to denounce anything that does not match what they believe.
00:22:22And so they will say things like this.
00:22:25At a high level, you will find the oneness Pentecostals will say this about the Trinity.
00:22:30Show us the word Trinity in the Bible.
00:22:33And they don't take the reverse of that.
00:22:35Well, show us the word oneness in the Bible.
00:22:38The words aren't there.
00:22:39You have to understand concepts.
00:22:41But they've been programmed one or the other.
00:22:45It can't be a situation where you realize that if I understand the basic concepts of love
00:22:54one another, reach out a hand to those who are fallen, pick them up.
00:22:58And by that, I don't mean restore these apostles who are sexual predators.
00:23:04That's not what I mean at all.
00:23:05But there are people who struggle with sins that they need lifted up.
00:23:09And maybe they don't get put into a position of authority, but they're a sinner.
00:23:13And Jesus came to love the sinner.
00:23:15You help those who are in need of help.
00:23:18But they've been taught with this very political mindset where you can't even do this because
00:23:23if you do, the people in your church who have been trained to denounce anybody who's not
00:23:29of their ideology will actually denounce the member who reaches out the helping hand.
00:23:34Yeah, because he's the one with the sinners, right?
00:23:37He's in the wrong environment.
00:23:40Yeah.
00:23:41There's, when Jesus said, I don't know how to say it in English,
00:23:48Liebe deinen Nächsten wie dich selbst, love your neighbor as yourself.
00:23:54Is that right?
00:23:55That's right.
00:23:57There is a premise in that you have to be conscious of yourself and how you want to be loved.
00:24:08That's the reality of love for you.
00:24:12So God will not judge you for a love or a way of love you don't know
00:24:17or a way to behave you don't know.
00:24:20So there is, like Paul makes, distinctions between maturity.
00:24:26It's built within those saying from Jesus.
00:24:29So, but if you are upholding a standard of love that you want to receive,
00:24:36you have to be the one that's giving this kind of love to other persons.
00:24:41And you have to be able to understand, oh, interesting.
00:24:45That's how I want to be loved.
00:24:49Maybe other people do want to be loved like this as well.
00:24:56So there's, again, a kind of maturity.
00:24:59Just stop for a second.
00:25:01Think about what you're doing here.
00:25:03Or if you are judging, I'm not talking about discernment.
00:25:07That's another category.
00:25:09But think about yourself before you judge other persons because they don't meet your highest standard of Christianity,
00:25:19whatever that means, right?
00:25:21Yeah, there's a saying in America, I don't know if you have the same,
00:25:24but basically it says you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar.
00:25:30And it means that you attract people with something that is sweet and enticing
00:25:34rather than something that is bitter to the taste.
00:25:37And sadly, the Christianity, as some of the churches that I have experienced in modern mainstream Christianity have projected,
00:25:48is this idea that if you are with us, you get all of the honey.
00:25:53But if you're not with us, we're going to give you nothing but vinegar.
00:25:56Again, that's tribalism in its purest form.
00:26:01Absolutely.
00:26:02And again, as I was leaving the cult mindset, and I'm reading the Bible over and over trying to wash all of this out of my head,
00:26:12I'm entering into new churches, and I'm watching very closely, paying attention to when I'm reading the things that specifically Jesus said.
00:26:21Because you can take all of the rest of the apostles, they're very important, but they also are the words of a man, a human.
00:26:33And so there's a human perspective.
00:26:35And you find situations like Paul and Barnabas where they're actually at odds with each other, right?
00:26:41Yeah, about Mark.
00:26:42Yeah, the human perspective.
00:26:45So what I started to realize is the churches, and especially those who teach that they have an apostle,
00:26:53the apostles will fight with each other, much like Paul and Barnabas,
00:26:56and they will basically teach the people that they need to also fight against the other guy because it's an us-versus-them mentality.
00:27:05When Jesus would, if you follow the words and teachings of Jesus, Jesus would come and say,
00:27:11no, let's all be together in love, and there's a better way.
00:27:15Let me show you the better way.
00:27:17And people are just missing the better way.
00:27:19Instead, they want to give the vinegar to those who are not of their same opinion.
00:27:24Yeah, interestingly, the phrase, but I show you the better way, that's the ending of 1 Corinthians 12.
00:27:31Yes.
00:27:31Leading up to 1 Corinthians 13.
00:27:35And it's so interesting, that's like his ending verse, when he's explaining all of this charismania stuff,
00:27:46and then he's like, let's set it aside.
00:27:48There are things that are much more important than this.
00:27:54Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,
00:27:57or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,
00:28:03charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:28:08You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:28:12william-branham.org.
00:28:14On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
00:28:20Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,
00:28:24with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:28:29You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:28:35If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.
00:28:42And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
00:28:48On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:28:53Let's go back to your example of women showing their skin.
00:28:59So, if that's my preaching in the congregation, I'm missing the point,
00:29:04because there is a time and a place for such conversations,
00:29:09even within my own family, when my daughters are not well-behaved or they are not well-dressing,
00:29:15I will tell them that.
00:29:16But the time and place is not the congregation.
00:29:19If it's not a, like, bigger problem of the congregation itself.
00:29:27Let's take Woody Baucombe, for example.
00:29:30He died just a few days ago.
00:29:34And he was a strong, he was always describing this tension between,
00:29:42if you are attracting the wolves into your congregation,
00:29:47you are basically starving your sheep.
00:29:49If you are doing all the circus, et cetera, pp., you will starve your sheep,
00:29:53you will attract the wolves, and then you have no congregation.
00:29:56There's no body of Christ left, because the sheep will leave your church.
00:30:02So, in our last discussion, we had this, we wanted to make this,
00:30:08at which point you can't say this is a healthy person anymore,
00:30:12or at which point can you say this is not a healthy Christian anymore?
00:30:17So, what are the characterizations of that?
00:30:21And the same goes for a congregation.
00:30:23If your congregation is all about those symptoms, like your clothes,
00:30:28your outward behavior, et cetera, pp., then there may be something wrong.
00:30:32If it's always this high criticism, high idealism, high standards that no one can meet,
00:30:41and there's no grace, no love, no forgiveness,
00:30:45no room for being an authentic human being in all of his brokenness?
00:30:50For me, it was this simple.
00:30:52I was trying to learn what does it mean to be a Christian.
00:30:56And they did have at least one of the churches, maybe two of the churches that I attended early,
00:31:01they did have these classes you could attend.
00:31:04And it was basic Christianity.
00:31:06What is the gospel?
00:31:07What does it mean?
00:31:08I did learn some things from this.
00:31:10But what I'm finding is it has become more of a tradition.
00:31:15What does it mean to be a Christian?
00:31:17Here's the book.
00:31:18Here's the thing that somebody has sold and published to the congregation.
00:31:24But even the leadership haven't really learned the concepts.
00:31:28I had a conversation with Bob Scott,
00:31:32and he was talking about very much the same thing we're talking about today.
00:31:36And he says, I really wish that instead we would start having churches and bars,
00:31:43which I know offended a lot of people,
00:31:46because if you take the mindset that we're going to take our sanctuary,
00:31:52our holy thing everybody goes into,
00:31:54much like they would revere the temple in ancient Israelism,
00:31:59and then we're going to instead go to this place where the –
00:32:04I don't know if you have this term, the riffraff.
00:32:06The despised ones are going to the bars in the minds of the people listening to this, right?
00:32:12But what you find is the people in the bars are often more authentic.
00:32:16They're showing their authentic self.
00:32:18They're showing who they are.
00:32:19They're being who they want to be.
00:32:22And they may not share your worldview,
00:32:24but when you start having conversations with some of these people, which I have,
00:32:29you find out that in many ways they more resemble the words that Jesus Christ was telling the people who were also despised in his era.
00:32:39They resemble that more clearly often than some of the Christians.
00:32:43They're more authentic.
00:32:44They're genuine people.
00:32:46In some cases, they're loving people.
00:32:48They want to help lift other people up.
00:32:51And so you see this false dichotomy, basically, of what is Christianity.
00:32:56Christianity means we need to become more and more holy,
00:33:00which is a concept that, you know,
00:33:03Latter Rain helped introduce this idea that we need to strive to become perfect.
00:33:08And we, once we achieve this, then Jesus returns.
00:33:12That concept seems to have plagued Christianity, from what I can tell.
00:33:16That's an unbelievable weight you are putting on people.
00:33:22I am a Christian myself that comes from the world.
00:33:25So I have a baggage on my back.
00:33:29I have a past that I will never get rid of.
00:33:32Never.
00:33:32Never.
00:33:34The pictures, my...
00:33:39Often when I go, just throughout the day,
00:33:42I have pictures of my older self, of my old behavior,
00:33:47of things that happened in the past to me that I'm deeply ashamed of.
00:33:52Or even psychosomatic things.
00:33:54I don't know if you say it, like psychosomatic,
00:33:57like when it becomes like a bodily tension out of your thinking.
00:34:02Psychosomatic, psychosomatic things that stem from my past.
00:34:08It is in God's hand to take those things, those feelings,
00:34:17those scars from me to make me holy.
00:34:21That's a process that I can't speed up.
00:34:25I'm totally dependent on God to help me with my thinking,
00:34:34with my behavior, with my addictions, with my consume,
00:34:41all of those things.
00:34:42It's very complex if you have a past.
00:34:44So, sometimes, I often think it's really hard for...
00:34:52I'll just talk about me right now.
00:34:54For Christians like me to fit in within Christian society
00:35:00because I am so broken.
00:35:02And to find a healthy place for Christians like me is so hard
00:35:07because, on the one hand, I'm sorry,
00:35:11you have all those charismatic weirdos
00:35:14that are more open for guys like me,
00:35:18but they are charismanian in all of its forms.
00:35:24And on the other side, there are healthy Christian congregations.
00:35:27They will take me in as well,
00:35:31but there's some kind of hidden hierarchy
00:35:36in those Christian environments.
00:35:42It makes me so sad.
00:35:44One very real example.
00:35:48There's one seminary I want to attend
00:35:51for like five or six years now.
00:35:53And the roadblocks and the hoops I have to jump over
00:35:57just to study there
00:35:59are impossible for me to overcome.
00:36:04Really, really impossible.
00:36:06And that makes me sad.
00:36:07I love those people.
00:36:10They speak my language.
00:36:12I love their teaching.
00:36:14I love their books.
00:36:15I love those people.
00:36:16I am with them for over 10 years now,
00:36:19but they won't accept me as a student
00:36:21because of minor things.
00:36:24I can't understand it.
00:36:26So here's a Christian that really wants to grow,
00:36:30that wants to study Christianity
00:36:31in all of its greatness and color and perspective
00:36:38and the whole spectrum.
00:36:41But yeah, I'm sorry,
00:36:42you don't have the right certificates.
00:36:44You can't study here.
00:36:45That's so stupid.
00:36:47So my question is,
00:36:51where is a place?
00:36:52So if Christianity is a call
00:36:55to the most broken people out there,
00:36:58and it is, yeah,
00:36:59Jesus' call is for the most broken people out there.
00:37:06Where's the place where those people can fit in
00:37:09and strive and mature time by time
00:37:13to become grown, educated Christians?
00:37:20If we measure them by worldly standards,
00:37:23if they have a past,
00:37:26I'm really, I'm from the streets.
00:37:28I was a, we talked about it,
00:37:30I was a musician.
00:37:31I was, I'm from the streets.
00:37:32I was a leftist, a real, real leftist.
00:37:35You can't imagine the world I am from.
00:37:38Maybe you know the world I am from,
00:37:41from movies, totally white movies.
00:37:44I lived that movies before I came to faith, really.
00:37:47I was a leftist through and through.
00:37:50So where's, where's the place for me?
00:37:52I don't feel I belong to Charismania.
00:37:54Charismania, I have a place
00:37:58in more traditional Christian environments,
00:38:01but in those environments,
00:38:03there's still a hierarchy
00:38:05and there are roadblocks
00:38:07that a person like me with a past
00:38:09can't overcome.
00:38:10So where, where can I go?
00:38:14And I'm, I'm, I'm talking like,
00:38:17I mean, I'm just one broken person.
00:38:20There are millions out there.
00:38:21And Christianity is really a call for them.
00:38:25So where's a place for them to,
00:38:27to grow and be part of it,
00:38:29to work for it, right?
00:38:31There's so much in what you said
00:38:32that I just want to explode over.
00:38:37Charismatics, if you understand
00:38:39how Charismania works,
00:38:40it is an appeal for the broken.
00:38:43That aspect of it is,
00:38:45I will say that aspect is pretty good.
00:38:47But what happens when you join this?
00:38:49I read the book by Dr. Stephen Hassan,
00:38:53Combating Cult Mind Control.
00:38:55And there's a thing
00:38:56that is called love bombing.
00:38:57I don't know if that translates for you.
00:39:00So love bombing.
00:39:01If you go to join a charismatic church,
00:39:04you will instantly be love bombed,
00:39:07especially if you're from the streets.
00:39:09That's how it works.
00:39:10They have been programmed
00:39:11and trained to do this.
00:39:12And you will find people
00:39:14who will defend it to their dying breath
00:39:16because before I joined
00:39:18this charismatic thing,
00:39:19I was this lowly sinner.
00:39:21I was doing this horrible thing.
00:39:23And I saw God in this.
00:39:25What they really saw was love bombing.
00:39:28They saw everybody
00:39:28who's genuinely pouring out
00:39:30their love to them.
00:39:31But then on the flip side,
00:39:34you have people who realize
00:39:35after they're there,
00:39:36something is not quite right here.
00:39:37I can't put my finger on it.
00:39:39I'm going to ask a few questions
00:39:41and I'm probably going to leave.
00:39:43The moment you ask those questions,
00:39:45love bombing turns into hate bombing.
00:39:48You find instantly
00:39:49people are very offended
00:39:51if you joined
00:39:53and you don't join
00:39:54into the same mindset
00:39:56and you're going to
00:39:58go down a different pathway.
00:40:00Well, you're not of us.
00:40:01You're against us.
00:40:03You're either with us or against us.
00:40:04So I'm starting to detect
00:40:06you're against us
00:40:06and I'm going to show the dark side
00:40:10of myself that you never saw
00:40:12whenever I was love bombing you
00:40:13as you joined this thing.
00:40:15In many charismatic circles,
00:40:17that is the way it is.
00:40:19Then the flip side,
00:40:20like you said,
00:40:21they go into mainstream Christianity.
00:40:24Mainstream Christianity,
00:40:26for me,
00:40:27who is experiencing it
00:40:28for the first time,
00:40:30it has become so traditional
00:40:31that there's the tradition
00:40:33over and over and over again.
00:40:35Well, many who weren't
00:40:37Christian before,
00:40:38which I consider myself,
00:40:39like I said,
00:40:40I put myself in that mindset.
00:40:42I want to understand
00:40:43the tradition.
00:40:43Why the tradition?
00:40:44What is this tradition?
00:40:45Why are you doing it?
00:40:47And often the traditional
00:40:48things that they do...
00:40:49The forbidden question.
00:40:50The forbidden question.
00:40:52Often the traditions,
00:40:53things that they do,
00:40:54you can't really find it
00:40:55in the Bible.
00:40:56The Jews didn't have the ceremony
00:40:58and the Christians didn't.
00:40:59So you're like,
00:41:00well, where did this come from?
00:41:01What is this?
00:41:02Why are you doing it?
00:41:03Well, if you ask those same questions
00:41:05to mainstream Christianity,
00:41:07oh, he's questioning us.
00:41:09He must not be with us.
00:41:10He must be against us.
00:41:12So the same mindset
00:41:13kind of evolves
00:41:14into different ways
00:41:16and different forms
00:41:17with different groups.
00:41:18And you go back
00:41:19to the words of Jesus,
00:41:22love those who despise you.
00:41:24You know,
00:41:24things like this
00:41:25that you're reading
00:41:26as what a Christian
00:41:27should be from Jesus,
00:41:29you're finding
00:41:30that it doesn't really exist
00:41:31in either circle.
00:41:33in Christianity
00:41:34and many,
00:41:35many religions
00:41:36of many denominations
00:41:37of faith.
00:41:38Yeah.
00:41:39Back to love bombing,
00:41:42that's also just one
00:41:44very superficial way
00:41:46to attract people.
00:41:48But because it's superficial,
00:41:50the moment you are
00:41:51asking deeper questions,
00:41:53it falls apart
00:41:54and shows
00:41:56its emptiness
00:41:58and voidness
00:41:59and voidness
00:41:59of any meaning
00:42:00because it doesn't
00:42:02bring you
00:42:03this whole kind
00:42:04of Christianity.
00:42:05It doesn't bring
00:42:06the broken person
00:42:08that came to faith
00:42:09into a position
00:42:10that is meaningful.
00:42:11Is there someone
00:42:12that helped you
00:42:13to find a job,
00:42:14to overcome
00:42:14your drug addiction,
00:42:16to give you some time
00:42:17to just...
00:42:19I mean,
00:42:20if a person
00:42:21like me
00:42:21in his 20s
00:42:23or 30s
00:42:23comes to faith
00:42:25and is cut off
00:42:27from his entire life
00:42:29that he lived before,
00:42:32like 20,
00:42:3330 years,
00:42:34that's a rock pull,
00:42:37you would say.
00:42:37Like,
00:42:38you are losing
00:42:39everything you had.
00:42:40It's worthless,
00:42:41of course.
00:42:42I know that.
00:42:43I experienced that.
00:42:45My entire lifestyle
00:42:45I lived
00:42:47and was saturated in
00:42:49before I came to Christ
00:42:51was empty,
00:42:52was meaningless.
00:42:53But nonetheless,
00:42:55what's the thing
00:42:57I can build upon
00:42:58a new life
00:42:59in Christ?
00:43:00And there are
00:43:01not many churches
00:43:02and many peoples
00:43:03and many principles
00:43:04that brings
00:43:06those broken persons
00:43:08into a position
00:43:09that is meaningful,
00:43:11impactful.
00:43:12They can do something
00:43:13in Christianity,
00:43:15have a place
00:43:16in Christianity
00:43:16that is meaningful.
00:43:19So,
00:43:19like,
00:43:20you're stepping
00:43:20into your church
00:43:22on a Sunday,
00:43:23yeah,
00:43:23it's all fine,
00:43:23yeah,
00:43:24we love you,
00:43:24blah, blah, blah.
00:43:25And then people go home,
00:43:26no one invites you
00:43:27to their table,
00:43:28no one asks,
00:43:29hey,
00:43:29did you find a job?
00:43:30Can I help you?
00:43:31Should I do some phone calls?
00:43:33Stuff like,
00:43:33also,
00:43:33simple things
00:43:34normal things
00:43:35that you do
00:43:36for every normal friend,
00:43:38but not for the most
00:43:39broken person
00:43:39that just came to Christ?
00:43:42Unbelievable.
00:43:43Yeah,
00:43:44there's so much to say.
00:43:46Yeah,
00:43:47but that's,
00:43:48that's one thing
00:43:49that is truly bothering me
00:43:51because I'm experiencing
00:43:52it as well.
00:43:53I'm a,
00:43:54I'm in a tradition
00:43:55that's called
00:43:55Brüdergemeinde.
00:43:57They don't,
00:43:59there are many aspects
00:44:01about this tradition,
00:44:01but their main aspect
00:44:02is they don't have a pastor.
00:44:03It's just the
00:44:05older brethren
00:44:07of the congregation,
00:44:08everyone has a
00:44:09right to preach
00:44:11and to lead
00:44:12and they are very democratic
00:44:14about their
00:44:15decisions.
00:44:18So,
00:44:19over time,
00:44:20I just realized
00:44:21I don't have a place,
00:44:22I don't have a role
00:44:23in this congregation.
00:44:24I'm just sitting there
00:44:25Sunday for Sunday,
00:44:26yes,
00:44:26I can consume
00:44:27whatever they give me,
00:44:28but
00:44:29what can I do here?
00:44:31What's my purpose
00:44:31in all of this?
00:44:33So,
00:44:33yeah,
00:44:34what's my purpose?
00:44:35What can I do here?
00:44:36So,
00:44:36yeah.
00:44:37And the last thing
00:44:37I'll mention,
00:44:38which this is kind of a,
00:44:41for people who aren't aware
00:44:43and people who have
00:44:43never been down
00:44:44that pathway,
00:44:45it's,
00:44:46it is quite offensive
00:44:47and I'm not taking
00:44:48that lightly,
00:44:49but there are
00:44:50many Christians
00:44:51who have been taught
00:44:52the Bible incorrectly
00:44:53and I'll use
00:44:54fundamentalism
00:44:55as the extreme example.
00:44:57In Christian fundamentalism,
00:44:58there's a certain way
00:44:59that you read the Bible
00:45:00in a fundamentalist way.
00:45:02It's very black or white,
00:45:04whatever it says,
00:45:05word for word,
00:45:06even if it is a metaphor,
00:45:08I'm going to
00:45:08read that metaphor
00:45:10as though it is
00:45:11supposed to be literal
00:45:12and not metaphor
00:45:13or if it's symbolic,
00:45:15I have to read it as symbolic,
00:45:17I have to read it as literal,
00:45:18not symbolic.
00:45:19Well,
00:45:20what happens is
00:45:20whenever they leave
00:45:21the fundamentalist group,
00:45:23now to them,
00:45:25the Bible doesn't make sense.
00:45:27They're critically thinking
00:45:28and they start critically thinking
00:45:29about what they understand
00:45:30of the Bible
00:45:30and if you read it
00:45:32in a fundamentalist way,
00:45:34it is riddled
00:45:35with contradictions
00:45:36because the fundamentalist way
00:45:38does not work.
00:45:40So,
00:45:41take that person,
00:45:43now enter them
00:45:43into one of the
00:45:45new modern churches.
00:45:47Well,
00:45:48this person is questioning
00:45:48the Bible.
00:45:49They must not be with us,
00:45:51they're against us.
00:45:52That is the mindset
00:45:53I've actually
00:45:53sat down
00:45:54and watched this happen
00:45:55where somebody
00:45:57in the group
00:45:57filled with questions
00:45:59has been taught
00:46:00the Bible incorrectly
00:46:01and they are suddenly
00:46:02outcasts
00:46:03within their new church.
00:46:05It's terrible
00:46:06and like you said,
00:46:08they have no place there
00:46:09because they have
00:46:10questions,
00:46:10they have really,
00:46:11really good questions.
00:46:12They have questions
00:46:13that I think
00:46:14should have been addressed
00:46:15but they're suddenly
00:46:17outcasts.
00:46:17I can't even question
00:46:20the Bible
00:46:20in some of these groups
00:46:22and that should be
00:46:23the most basic
00:46:23form of question.
00:46:25If you're
00:46:25a developing mind,
00:46:27if you're a child,
00:46:28you should ask
00:46:29those questions
00:46:29because you learn
00:46:31by asking questions
00:46:32and getting answers
00:46:33and often
00:46:34what I've noticed
00:46:36in the cases
00:46:37like I mentioned,
00:46:39if the minister
00:46:41or the elder
00:46:42or the leader
00:46:42who is working
00:46:44with the person
00:46:44does not have
00:46:45the answer,
00:46:46they'll make something
00:46:47up just on the fly
00:46:48and people can detect
00:46:51this.
00:46:51Just to save face,
00:46:52right?
00:46:52Just to save face
00:46:53and people can detect,
00:46:54okay, this guy's
00:46:55full of it.
00:46:56He doesn't know
00:46:57what he's talking about
00:46:58and then that drives
00:47:00them further away
00:47:00whereas I've also worked,
00:47:03I did apologetics
00:47:04for a while
00:47:04after leaving the cult
00:47:05and you find
00:47:06the really experienced
00:47:07apologetics
00:47:08will simply say,
00:47:10you know,
00:47:10I don't know,
00:47:11I don't have an answer
00:47:12to that question
00:47:12but there are other
00:47:14things we can focus on
00:47:15and they'll start
00:47:16talking about
00:47:16the things
00:47:17that they can talk about.
00:47:19So you get that mindset
00:47:20and all of this,
00:47:22everything that we've said
00:47:23for this entire podcast
00:47:25builds up to the question,
00:47:27what is the solution
00:47:28for it?
00:47:29If you look back
00:47:30at what happened
00:47:31with the Catholic Church,
00:47:32many of the things
00:47:33that we have described
00:47:34in this podcast
00:47:35were things
00:47:37that Martin Luther
00:47:38began to notice
00:47:39within the Catholic Church.
00:47:41Yes, he noticed
00:47:41the sexual problems
00:47:44that the Church had
00:47:44and most Protestants
00:47:46will go back
00:47:47and they'll say
00:47:47that's what Martin Luther
00:47:48saw and it's a good
00:47:49thing he left that.
00:47:51But it wasn't just that.
00:47:52He started noticing
00:47:54that the way
00:47:55that they were teaching
00:47:56did not quite align
00:47:57with the worldview
00:47:58that Jesus was presenting
00:48:00and so there was
00:48:02the Protestant Reformation.
00:48:03This became a movement
00:48:05that developed over time
00:48:06into what we're talking about.
00:48:08Well, now it seems
00:48:09the movement
00:48:09has shifted back
00:48:11towards that same root problem
00:48:13that Martin Luther
00:48:13was addressing
00:48:14and so I'll ask you
00:48:15what is the solution
00:48:17to it?
00:48:17Yeah, really
00:48:19the Sola Scriptura
00:48:20treatment.
00:48:22In Germany
00:48:23we have a word
00:48:25that's called
00:48:26Betriebsblindheit.
00:48:28So because you're
00:48:29part of something
00:48:30you don't see
00:48:31the problems
00:48:32because you're
00:48:33part of the problem.
00:48:35That's what it means
00:48:37basically.
00:48:38In my congregation
00:48:39it's like
00:48:41we have those
00:48:42many elders
00:48:43I love them.
00:48:44They're great persons
00:48:45great Christians
00:48:46very well educated
00:48:48I can learn a lot
00:48:49from them
00:48:49but there's no place
00:48:51for the younger people
00:48:52in the congregation.
00:48:53We had a point
00:48:54in our congregation
00:48:55we made
00:48:57some
00:48:58weekend
00:49:00workshop
00:49:00yeah
00:49:01and
00:49:03by the time
00:49:04I was writing
00:49:05a new
00:49:06theater piece
00:49:07for my congregation
00:49:08for the Reformation Day
00:49:09so every year
00:49:11we do some
00:49:12theater
00:49:12and musicals
00:49:14and
00:49:14last year
00:49:15I was the one
00:49:16writing the
00:49:17theater piece
00:49:18and the musical
00:49:18and
00:49:21while I was
00:49:22doing it
00:49:22there was a
00:49:24lack of
00:49:24people
00:49:25contributing
00:49:27we don't have
00:49:29enough hands
00:49:30basically
00:49:31to help the case
00:49:33and I was like
00:49:34where are the
00:49:35young peoples
00:49:35we want to have
00:49:37a musical
00:49:37I remember
00:49:38back in my time
00:49:39when there was
00:49:40a theater piece
00:49:41or a musical
00:49:41at my school
00:49:42everyone wanted
00:49:44to be part of it
00:49:45and in my congregation
00:49:46where are the
00:49:47young ones
00:49:48where are the
00:49:48young people
00:49:49who want to
00:49:49play the main role
00:49:51whatever
00:49:51so I was writing
00:49:53the piece
00:49:53in the end
00:49:54I was the main role
00:49:55being Tetzel
00:49:56the opposite
00:49:57of Lufa
00:49:58but
00:50:00that wasn't
00:50:01very satisfying
00:50:01for me
00:50:02because
00:50:02at one point
00:50:03we had those
00:50:04weekend workshops
00:50:05and in those
00:50:06weekend workshops
00:50:07were young people
00:50:08and students
00:50:09I have never
00:50:10seen before
00:50:11in my own
00:50:12congregation
00:50:12I've never
00:50:14seen it
00:50:14they were there
00:50:15for years
00:50:16some of them
00:50:17were sons
00:50:18and daughters
00:50:18of my elders
00:50:19and I have
00:50:20never seen
00:50:20them before
00:50:21in 6, 7, 8 years
00:50:24I am part
00:50:25of that congregation
00:50:26now
00:50:26and I was
00:50:27saying to myself
00:50:29that's unbelievable
00:50:30how come
00:50:31I never saw
00:50:32those young people
00:50:33preach
00:50:34how come
00:50:34I never saw
00:50:35those young people
00:50:36doing a workshop
00:50:37with us
00:50:38I don't know
00:50:39the history
00:50:42of the apostles
00:50:43whatever
00:50:44why are those
00:50:45young people
00:50:46not part
00:50:47of the musical
00:50:48for this year
00:50:49why is it me
00:50:50playing the Tetzel
00:50:51why isn't it not
00:50:52the young persons
00:50:53playing the Tetzel
00:50:54what's wrong here
00:50:55so
00:50:56in my congregation
00:50:58I know
00:51:00we are talking
00:51:01for
00:51:01at least
00:51:033 years
00:51:04before the pandemic
00:51:04so
00:51:057 years
00:51:06now in total
00:51:07for a split
00:51:08a healthy split
00:51:09like
00:51:10we are
00:51:11100
00:51:11and 150
00:51:12members
00:51:13of the congregation
00:51:14so let's split
00:51:15that's big enough
00:51:16we take 50
00:51:17maybe 75
00:51:18people
00:51:19build a new
00:51:20congregation
00:51:20and so on
00:51:21and so on
00:51:22nothing happened
00:51:23we are still
00:51:24talking about it
00:51:25and in our own
00:51:26congregation
00:51:27because every elder
00:51:28and their families
00:51:30are filling up
00:51:32every role
00:51:33in the congregation
00:51:34no one outside
00:51:36of their families
00:51:37has a real purpose
00:51:39outside of
00:51:40coming to
00:51:42to the Sundays
00:51:43helping cleaning
00:51:44the toilet
00:51:45helping to make
00:51:46some food
00:51:47for the Sundays
00:51:48but totally
00:51:49meaningless stuff
00:51:50totally meaningless stuff
00:51:51even our youth
00:51:53education
00:51:54I'm asking myself
00:51:55like
00:51:56one other problem
00:51:58just
00:51:59to reflect
00:52:00on that
00:52:01maybe
00:52:01people out
00:52:02watching this
00:52:04have the same problems
00:52:05let's reflect on that
00:52:06okay
00:52:07we have
00:52:08every year
00:52:10we are like
00:52:11in a democratic process
00:52:13to decide
00:52:15what are we doing now
00:52:16but
00:52:17in every year
00:52:18it's the same seasons
00:52:19the same
00:52:20events
00:52:21so
00:52:21what are we talking about
00:52:23you don't have to
00:52:24riddle this
00:52:26every year
00:52:26anew
00:52:27so
00:52:27even the youth services
00:52:31we have free
00:52:32classes for children
00:52:33youth persons
00:52:34and teenagers
00:52:35let's say it like this
00:52:36and then we are
00:52:37again deciding
00:52:38what to do
00:52:39what to do
00:52:39who's
00:52:40responsible
00:52:41for this youth
00:52:42and the teenagers
00:52:43and stuff like that
00:52:44but we have
00:52:45like
00:52:46kindergarten teachers
00:52:48basic school teachers
00:52:50in our congregation
00:52:51why not
00:52:52give one of them
00:52:53a job
00:52:54so he makes
00:52:55the whole thing
00:52:55for an entire year
00:52:56he can organize
00:52:57well
00:52:58every year
00:53:00get paid for it
00:53:01have some security
00:53:02have some stability
00:53:03in our congregation
00:53:04instead of
00:53:05deciding
00:53:06every year
00:53:07anew
00:53:07with a question
00:53:08of
00:53:08who's responsible
00:53:09we don't have
00:53:10the people
00:53:10yeah please
00:53:11give them a job
00:53:12pay them some money
00:53:13and then
00:53:13you have
00:53:15never have to
00:53:16ask those questions
00:53:17again
00:53:17there are
00:53:18enough people
00:53:19but there's
00:53:19no room
00:53:20for them
00:53:20to express
00:53:21themselves
00:53:21or come
00:53:22into a
00:53:23position
00:53:23in a meaningful
00:53:24into a
00:53:25meaningful
00:53:25position
00:53:26you know
00:53:27it's funny
00:53:28because I get
00:53:28asked this
00:53:29question
00:53:30often
00:53:30people
00:53:31people say
00:53:32you give
00:53:33the problems
00:53:33so many times
00:53:34but you never
00:53:35tell people
00:53:36what they should
00:53:36do
00:53:37and if you
00:53:38actually listen
00:53:38to what I've
00:53:39been saying
00:53:40across all
00:53:41of the podcast
00:53:41it is literally
00:53:43what you just
00:53:43said
00:53:44the people
00:53:45have the power
00:53:46there is
00:53:47this
00:53:47I don't know
00:53:48if you've
00:53:48seen it
00:53:48there's this
00:53:49internet meme
00:53:49where a
00:53:50politician
00:53:51is standing
00:53:51on a
00:53:52podium
00:53:52and he's
00:53:53got his
00:53:53finger up
00:53:54and he's
00:53:54addressing a
00:53:55crowd
00:53:55well the
00:53:56crowd is
00:53:57standing on
00:53:57a board
00:53:58and he's
00:53:58hanging off
00:53:59of a cliff
00:53:59and the only
00:54:00thing holding
00:54:01him up
00:54:02are the people
00:54:03who are standing
00:54:03on this board
00:54:04and one person
00:54:05is walking
00:54:05away
00:54:06well just
00:54:07because one
00:54:08person walked
00:54:09away
00:54:09means that
00:54:10the rest of
00:54:11the crowd
00:54:11is still holding
00:54:12him up
00:54:13so even though
00:54:14one person
00:54:14has walked
00:54:15away
00:54:15this person
00:54:15still has
00:54:16his platform
00:54:17and what
00:54:19I've been
00:54:19describing
00:54:19across all
00:54:20of my
00:54:20podcasts
00:54:21is exactly
00:54:22that
00:54:22the people
00:54:23actually have
00:54:24the power
00:54:24themselves
00:54:24they have
00:54:25the bible
00:54:26they could
00:54:26read the bible
00:54:27and what
00:54:28you're describing
00:54:28is empowering
00:54:29people to do
00:54:30this
00:54:30if you let
00:54:32the people
00:54:32if you
00:54:33empower the
00:54:34people
00:54:34they become
00:54:35the movement
00:54:35and the
00:54:36movement
00:54:36grows
00:54:37and it's
00:54:38not a
00:54:38movement
00:54:38that is
00:54:39looking for
00:54:39an apostle
00:54:40as a leader
00:54:40or a new
00:54:41prophet
00:54:41a new word
00:54:42for the day
00:54:43as the
00:54:43charismatics
00:54:44would put it
00:54:45you really
00:54:45don't need
00:54:46this
00:54:46you need
00:54:46people who
00:54:47just simply
00:54:48read and
00:54:49understand
00:54:49what it
00:54:50says
00:54:50so that's
00:54:51my advice
00:54:52and I
00:54:53don't know
00:54:53if you
00:54:54have
00:54:55put much
00:54:56thought
00:54:56into
00:54:57just the
00:54:58politics
00:54:58of religion
00:54:59how it
00:55:00works
00:55:00how
00:55:01the people
00:55:02who are
00:55:03elected
00:55:03and put
00:55:04into the
00:55:04position
00:55:05of leadership
00:55:05in some
00:55:06of the
00:55:06charismatic
00:55:07churches
00:55:07it almost
00:55:09becomes this
00:55:09thing where
00:55:10it turns
00:55:11into
00:55:11like a
00:55:12kingdom
00:55:13royalty
00:55:14once elected
00:55:15always elected
00:55:16I kind of
00:55:18feel like
00:55:18there are
00:55:19there's a
00:55:21human element
00:55:21you mentioned
00:55:22psychosomatics
00:55:23people who
00:55:24have a symptom
00:55:25and you can
00:55:25watch it
00:55:26manifest
00:55:26physically
00:55:27well often
00:55:28you can see
00:55:29people who
00:55:30change over
00:55:30time due to
00:55:31their life
00:55:32experiences
00:55:32and
00:55:33the
00:55:35psychosomatics
00:55:36this may be
00:55:37the wrong
00:55:37term
00:55:38I think
00:55:38there's a
00:55:38different
00:55:39term for it
00:55:39but
00:55:39it starts
00:55:40manifesting
00:55:41in their
00:55:41character
00:55:42the life
00:55:43experiences
00:55:43sometimes
00:55:44very traumatic
00:55:45life experiences
00:55:46like to say
00:55:47give someone
00:55:48power
00:55:49yeah exactly
00:55:50you give someone
00:55:51power
00:55:51well then
00:55:52when they
00:55:52change
00:55:53and their
00:55:53message is
00:55:54no longer
00:55:55the same
00:55:55as before
00:55:56they're showing
00:55:57the true
00:55:57colors
00:55:57right
00:55:58yeah
00:55:58not even
00:55:59true colors
00:56:00but
00:56:00just simple
00:56:02simply the
00:56:02human element
00:56:03some people
00:56:04change over
00:56:05time and
00:56:06what they say
00:56:06may not
00:56:06always be
00:56:07good
00:56:07but once
00:56:08they're
00:56:08elected
00:56:09into this
00:56:09position
00:56:10in charismania
00:56:11they have
00:56:13this
00:56:13esteem
00:56:14of royalty
00:56:14and they
00:56:15will always
00:56:16they will
00:56:16be
00:56:16God's
00:56:17general
00:56:17as a
00:56:18term
00:56:18for it
00:56:19they will
00:56:19always be
00:56:20no matter
00:56:20what
00:56:20they will
00:56:21be
00:56:21revered
00:56:21and respected
00:56:22and their
00:56:23words will
00:56:23have more
00:56:24power
00:56:24than the
00:56:25people
00:56:25is where
00:56:25I'm
00:56:25driving
00:56:26at
00:56:26if
00:56:27instead
00:56:27the
00:56:28balance
00:56:28of
00:56:28power
00:56:29shifts
00:56:29like
00:56:30the
00:56:31world
00:56:32view
00:56:32that
00:56:32Jesus
00:56:32taught
00:56:33was
00:56:33there's
00:56:33Jesus
00:56:34and
00:56:34then
00:56:34there's
00:56:35everyone
00:56:35else
00:56:35I don't
00:56:36care
00:56:36if you're
00:56:36apostle
00:56:37prophet
00:56:37I don't
00:56:37care who
00:56:38you are
00:56:38Jesus
00:56:39everyone
00:56:39else
00:56:40if the
00:56:41church
00:56:41goes back
00:56:42to that
00:56:42mindset
00:56:42I think
00:56:43it can
00:56:44correct
00:56:44itself
00:56:45I don't
00:56:46see
00:56:46the
00:56:48problems
00:56:49of
00:56:49power
00:56:50and
00:56:50politics
00:56:51in my
00:56:51congregation
00:56:52in my
00:56:52congregation
00:56:53I think
00:56:54it's more
00:56:54a problem
00:56:55of
00:56:56that's not
00:56:57the exact
00:56:58term
00:56:58but
00:56:58for lack
00:56:59laziness
00:57:01everyone
00:57:03everything
00:57:03is so
00:57:04cozy
00:57:05so fine
00:57:06we all
00:57:07love each
00:57:07other
00:57:08maybe they
00:57:09don't trust
00:57:10their young
00:57:11ones or
00:57:11their own
00:57:12children
00:57:12to preach
00:57:14I don't
00:57:15know
00:57:15but
00:57:15I
00:57:16I talked
00:57:17to some
00:57:18brethren
00:57:20of my
00:57:20congregation
00:57:21and
00:57:22they would
00:57:23agree with
00:57:26me on
00:57:27the laziness
00:57:28it's not
00:57:28laziness
00:57:29it's like
00:57:29this
00:57:30it's so
00:57:30cozy
00:57:31here
00:57:31why
00:57:31should
00:57:31we
00:57:32change
00:57:32something
00:57:33it's
00:57:34good
00:57:34the way
00:57:34it is
00:57:35so
00:57:35why
00:57:36should
00:57:36we
00:57:36change
00:57:36I would
00:57:38call that
00:57:38laziness
00:57:39maybe there's a
00:57:41better term
00:57:41for it
00:57:42that's
00:57:42our problem
00:57:43in the
00:57:44congregation
00:57:44I call it
00:57:45stagnant
00:57:46the water
00:57:48becomes
00:57:50stagnant
00:57:51and that's
00:57:51often what
00:57:52happens
00:57:53and it's
00:57:54sad
00:57:54but
00:57:54anyway
00:57:55one other
00:57:57problem is
00:57:57we have
00:57:58many
00:57:58people in
00:57:59a congregation
00:57:59that are
00:58:00just there
00:58:01to consume
00:58:02what's
00:58:02going on
00:58:03but
00:58:04not many
00:58:06enough have
00:58:06the drive
00:58:07to build
00:58:07up something
00:58:08new or
00:58:09build up
00:58:10something
00:58:10different
00:58:11or break
00:58:12rules
00:58:13unwritten
00:58:14rules
00:58:15that are
00:58:15not necessary
00:58:16like
00:58:17with the
00:58:18same
00:58:18principle
00:58:19of
00:58:19Sola
00:58:19Scriptura
00:58:20let's
00:58:20go back
00:58:21to
00:58:21basic
00:58:21let's
00:58:22do away
00:58:23all this
00:58:23superficial
00:58:24traditional
00:58:25stuff
00:58:26that's
00:58:26not it
00:58:27what can
00:58:27we do
00:58:28better
00:58:28absolutely
00:58:29well there's
00:58:30so much
00:58:31more we
00:58:31could talk
00:58:31about on
00:58:32this subject
00:58:32but it's
00:58:33been an hour
00:58:34thank you so
00:58:35much for
00:58:35doing this
00:58:35thank you
00:58:36too
00:58:36if you've
00:58:37enjoyed our
00:58:38show and
00:58:38you want
00:58:38more information
00:58:39you can
00:58:39check us
00:58:40out on
00:58:40the web
00:58:40you can
00:58:41find us
00:58:41at
00:58:41william-branum.org
00:58:43and
00:58:43sanctum
00:58:44artifact
00:58:44on youtube
00:58:45for more
00:58:46about the
00:58:46dark side
00:58:47of the
00:58:47new
00:58:47apostolic
00:58:48reformation
00:58:48you can
00:58:49read
00:58:49weaponized
00:58:49religion
00:58:50from
00:58:50christian
00:58:51identity
00:58:51to
00:58:52the
00:58:52nar
00:58:52available
00:58:53on
00:58:53amazon
00:58:54kindle
00:58:54and audible
00:58:55who
00:58:57william-branum
00:58:58do
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