Loaded Language in the Charismatic Movement | Christian Thomaßen | Episode 430 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Christian dive deep into the power of language in shaping faith, belief, and identity. They explore how loaded terms like “Seven Seals” carried entire theologies within Branham’s movement and how mystery cults through history have used hidden language to create exclusivity and control. From William Branham’s claims about the Arizona cloud to the rise of esoteric language in modern charismatic circles, they connect historical deception with today’s manipulation of words and meanings.    The conversation also unpacks the roots of Pentecostal prophecy, the false advertisement problem within religious publishing, and the global reach of Branham’s network through figures like William T. Freire von Blumberg. They compare German and American struggles with nationalism, examine how speech patterns can create entire pseudo-religions, and reflect on the dangers of confusing patriotism or cultural values with biblical Christianity. Finally, John and Christian discuss deconversion and deconstruction, pointing back to the role of the Holy Spirit in guiding believers rather than human leaders.    00:00 Introduction   00:31 Loaded Language in Cults   02:34 The Seven Seals and Branham’s Cloud Story   05:45 Mystery Cults and Secret Knowledge   08:15 The “Secret” and the Law of Attraction   13:04 Language, Creation, and Faith   14:08 Prophecy in Christianity vs. Paganism   16:02 Charles Parham and False Prophecy Roots   18:33 John G. Lake and Declaring Into Existence   20:05 Global Connections and Branham’s Manager in Germany   25:00 Political Manipulation and Dominion Agendas   29:11 German “Good Citizen” Values vs. Christianity   32:07 American Christian Nationalism and Patriotism   34:52 Youth, Entertainment, and Skewed Christianity   36:08 Esoteric Language and Charismatic Influence in Germany   39:00 Cult of Emotion and Manipulative Speech Patterns   42:51 False Advertisement in Churches   45:22 Tax Exemption, Fraud, and Mega-Church Business Models   48:03 Revivalism and Motivational Speech Patterns   50:04 Lost Language, Islam, and Mormon Comparisons   52:05 Deconstruction, Deconversion, and Spiritual Health   55:06 Trusting the Holy Spirit vs. Human Control   57:27 Final Reflections and Closing ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Christian Thomason.

00:47Christian, it's good to be back, and we have had an overwhelming number of people say,

00:52bring him back, bring Christian back.

00:54I don't know if you noticed the comment feeds on the first video that we did, but it got

00:59such positive feedback that you and I started talking, we thought we might do some more of

01:04these, and the subject that you picked today, interestingly, is one that I've been thinking

01:10through.

01:11I haven't yet formed in my strategy of laying these things out where people can understand

01:18them.

01:18I've not yet formed that strategy, so this will be my first attempt at trying to think through

01:24this, but the idea of language, it is so significant.

01:29And the reason I say this, which I'll get into later in the podcast, whenever I was in the

01:34cult and in the cult mindset, I had the loaded language, which everybody's familiar with that

01:40term who has been listening to our podcast.

01:43We had specific language that we, whenever the minister or our central figure would mention

01:49in this language, it might be a word, it might be a phrase, but it means a whole theology

01:55to us.

01:56So then whenever I go to a new church and that word or phrase is spoken, it hijacks my brain

02:01because the minister may be talking about something good and healthy and pure, but in my head,

02:08I'm thinking this other thing that he's not even saying, and it derails my thought process.

02:14So I'm glad that you chose this topic.

02:18I want to get into it deeper because that's just one area of the issues with language that

02:23we have.

02:24There are many, many issues with language from, you know, it's like we have a Christian

02:29tower of Babel across all the denominations.

02:31So anyway, thank you so much for coming back.

02:34Let's talk about language.

02:36Can you give an example for loaded language out of your own experience?

02:40Yes, if I were to talk about in loaded language, if I were to mention the seven seals.

02:47I would think it's some kind like, like, uh, uh, Trinity, right?

02:51If I mentioned the seven seals, for example, this, this was overloaded.

02:55We're talking about the seven seals from the book of revelation in, you know, in message

03:01cult and after leaving, but in the message cult, there was this whole theology that was wrapped

03:06around that because the seven seals and the theology was also bound to the seven church

03:11ages, which was dispensationalism.

03:14And parts of the book of revelation were hijacked to mean America and Rome and Russia.

03:21And so all of these thoughts come into my head when I hear the words, the phrase seven seals,

03:26not to mention this weird cloud thing that if you studied Branimism, all of these followers

03:32have, and some other churches have this cloud thing. So all of the mystery of the cloud and

03:38the mystery of the seals. And the idea that William Branham himself was the one who revealed

03:44the mystery behind the seven seals, even though the book of revelation says no human is worthy of

03:49this. So all of that programming goes off in my head. Whenever I hear the phrase seven seals,

03:55is it like the cloud reminds me of the bill Johnson cloud when he's describing it? There was a cloud

04:01in the airplane and from the cloud, there was coming gold glitter and stuff, such a kind of cloud

04:07or well, it's, um, we could talk about this, uh, probably in depth in another podcast because there's

04:14many aspects of this that I've not yet covered on the podcast, but the short essence of the story

04:20is William Branham was supposed to be out hunting in Arizona to bring forth the revelation of the

04:27seven seals. We were told after the fact. And while he, while he was out there, he got a phone call

04:35to go rescue a transgender prostitute murderer from death row. Of course. And so he, he, he leaves the

04:46state while he's out of the state. President Kennedy has the missile defense system, um, operation,

04:54the secret operation to build the missile defense system. And they detonated this massive, um,

05:01missile over, over Arizona from Vandenberg air force base. Well, it made this cloud ring that floated

05:07over the state of Arizona and William Branham gets back to Indiana having left Houston, Texas and Arizona.

05:15And he says, I was there, I was standing right under this. That was seven angels. They came down to

05:20give me the seven seals. And, and we believe this stuff, right? And he was not even in the state at

05:27the time it happened. It's very interesting. Um, like false teachers always, um, revolve around these

05:35kind of topics like, uh, um, the seven seals revelation, the clouds, the gold, the, the diamonds,

05:42emeralds and stuff like that. Very interesting. It's always the same story, but with a different

05:48package, right? Absolutely. It's because they are, if you study their history, how they came to be,

05:56what they bring forward, the doctrines they're teaching, the, the whole root of all of this is

06:01even a step beyond Gnosticism in history. You actually go back to the mystery cults,

06:07the mystery cults. What was it? It was a person who says, we have the secret. We have the knowledge

06:13of the mystery. And if you're in our group, you understand the secret. Funny part is nobody in the

06:18group understands it. The leader is just a con artist. He's tricking the people, but they all,

06:24they all gather together. They think they have the secret, but it creates an us versus them mentality.

06:28We in the group have the secret. You outside do not. And it ties back to our language discussion

06:35because to further solidify their belief in the quote unquote mystery, they create a language

06:42around it that nobody else knows, but can be spoken in plain, you know, in, in my language,

06:49it's plain English, but spoken in plain words, I should say, so that people who are outside the

06:54mystery cult, they hear the words and they have no idea what this group is talking about. But if

06:59you're in the group, the language itself is the carrier. In Germany, we call it Deutungshoheit.

07:04So there's one specific person or a state that is allowed to say what a meaning a word has.

07:15He's the one to define the terms. He's the one to define the meaning of totally void words like,

07:22like, uh, wonders or exciting, or, um, uh, I have, uh, I have a revelation. Yeah. Whatever that means.

07:33Right. Yeah. And that's really when you trace what we have today, all of this weird mess that we have

07:39today, the revelation and the language, really, that's the root for it because all of these, these

07:46con artists, I'll just say it outright. These con artists trick people into thinking that they knew

07:50these secret divine mysteries and that if you join our group and learn our mystery, you can become

07:57just like God. That was really what they were selling, which is really ironic. If you go back

08:03to the book of Genesis and you understand the very, uh, the concept of what happened in the original sin,

08:09it was the fact that Satan said, you too can, you, you can have this divine knowledge.

08:14Uh, I have a question for you. Do you know the secret? There was a, a, a DVD called The Secret.

08:22Is it known in, in the USA? There was a DVD and there was a book and I was fascinated with this.

08:29Whenever I came out of the religion that I left, Branhamism, I was, I was studying at that point in time,

08:37I was studying Gnosticism and I was learning about the Gnosis, the secret knowledge. I had not yet

08:44went back to the secret, the mystery cults, but I was understanding Gnosticism and I was like,

08:49what is this man? This is, this is like Gnosticism, but packaged in a book and people are, people are

08:55just eating this up. And there was a murder trial. I can't remember the name of the lady, but she killed

09:02her husband and she was, uh, I guess she was a Mormon and they had all of this, this nudge coverage

09:08of this trial. And she had this very confident face, like a con artist. And what she was doing

09:14was she was trying to practice this, the secret. And the secret basically was if you think positively

09:21towards something, it's like positive confession and charismania. If she think positive, she can sway

09:27the outcome of events. So she believed that even though she killed her husband, she would be able

09:32to sway the jury by using the secret. Yeah, that's, that's one kicker. Here's a very interesting story.

09:41When I grew up, I came to know the secret as well. It was widely popular in Germany. And I don't know

09:49if it's similar in the USA, but esoterics, um, in Germany is nothing special. Um, it's not even

09:57recognized as occult. It's so normal. You can go into any random library and there will be a huge space

10:07just for esoteric books, just as normal, like in America, motivational books or coaches or, uh,

10:14these, uh, like Donald Trump, how to be sexual, uh, successful books. Yeah. That's how normal,

10:20uh, esoterics are in Germany and the secret as well. But the secret, um, made it even more popular

10:28because it, um, offered a more exciting language, uh, especially for the, um, concepts of the law of

10:36attraction. And as you mentioned, the, uh, uh, uh, PSA personal, uh, self-affirmation, uh,

10:44positive thinking, all this kind of stuff. So when I was growing up, my whole environment,

10:51like the, uh, the, the generations after 68, the hippies was saturated with this kind of thinking,

11:00this, uh, uh, type of, of, uh, thinking worldviews, concepts, um, and of course, uh, the language,

11:07um, so much that at some point the media started to turn on them because, because it was getting

11:17ridiculous. Everyone was like the huge yoga guru. Everyone was enlightened. So, um, uh, the media

11:26started to caricature these people, um, in, we had a weekly formats like the Wochenschow and there

11:33was always a guy like presenting the yoga guru using this language, um, to, to have a laugh.

11:39And there was a movie called Kein Ohrhasen. And I will never forget this. Um, in the beginning of the

11:46movie, Till Schweiger sits down. He is like, uh, some kind of reporter, but, but he, he hates his job.

11:54And this is one of his last interviews because he can't deal with it no more. In front of him is an,

12:00like an ex German. He was, uh, uh, in California for a time. He comes back like shining full of energy.

12:09Let's make it happen. Let's make it real. That's that kind of language. It was ridiculous. The whole

12:17seminars were laughing because everyone could relate to this person, like totally, um, overhyped

12:24with his, Oh, you can make it real. Just talk about it. He can talk it into existence because

12:30everyone had such a person in their life. So when I came to faith and my environment started to

12:38develop this kind of language through, uh, Joyce Meyer, um, uh, we, we talked about him. It doesn't

12:47matter. Jesus culture, Bethel, Bill Johnson, um, guys like that. I was aware of what was going on and

12:56I started to distance myself and I knew from the get go language might be one of the most important

13:03topics. One of the most important battlefields of faith, because language is everything or nothing.

13:12And if we go back to basic and see how God created through his words, interacted with his creation

13:20by language, then we have the tower of Bible. We have Pentecost. We have the beginning of the book of

13:26John in the beginning, beginning was the word we can see there is a language, the word, the written

13:35word takes a special place in creation and in our faith. And I think, uh, because of that, it's worth

13:42fighting for a very precise, a very true language, um, instead of developing more or allowing more and

13:50more esoteric and occult language, uh, in our congregations.

13:54Even more interesting, the words that are used in the Christian version of the language

14:00are not quite of the same meaning for the words that exist outside of the Christian language.

14:07An example of this that I studied for probably over a year, I was studying prophecy. What is prophecy?

14:14And I began, because I'm studying the ancient world, I'm studying the evil path. I'm looking

14:21through all of the different, um, you know, the different pagan religions. I'm looking at the

14:25Oracle of Delphi, people like this. And, um, I should say the oracles of Delphi there, there were

14:32many, but there was one appointed as the Oracle. But because of that structure, because there was one

14:38Oracle of Delphi and had, you know, these sub prophets or whatever, I can't remember how you called

14:44the others. It, to me, because of my framing of the language, I associated them to the word prophecy

14:52in the same way that I did Christianity. And it took me almost a year to realize that the two

14:58can't coexist as the same thing. And why I say this is, so there was in the United States,

15:06there was this idea. I don't know exactly where it came from. I think Mormons may have been the first

15:12one to have the concept, but basically the school of the prophets come to us, we will teach you to

15:17become a prophet and you will, you will speak with prophecy. This doesn't really match Christianity.

15:24In Christianity, the prophet is nothing more than a mouthpiece. He or she may not even want this thing,

15:31but suddenly they open their mouth and God is speaking through them. It is a, it is a tunnel

15:37from which God can have his voice spoken and others can hear his voice. And it is spoken in a language

15:45that those listening can understand because God wants to speak to them. Now, fast forward to what we

15:51have today, which developed in a weird way because of Pentecostalism and a con artist that we, we talked

15:59about before the podcast was recording, Charles Fox Parham. He had this notion that prophecy would

16:08come in the form of spoken, you know, speaking in tongues, but before the speaking, it was actually

16:14writing in tongues. And I've got on my website, you can see the scribble marks. It looks kind of like a

16:19tic-tac-toe game. Even somebody scribbled some chicken scratch onto a piece of paper and said,

16:24this is God speaking to us. Yeah. And the first thought that hit me, I've studied at this

16:29point, the different pagan religions, et cetera. The first thought that hit me was not even the

16:34pagan religions would accept this because nobody can understand this thing. And, and so after this,

16:41the con artist tells all of the people in his con commune that we're going to go conquer and claim

16:48dominion for in the name of Christ, the entire continent of China, the country of China. And we're

16:56going to go in and we're going to speak this gobbledygook and they're going to hear us in

17:01their own words. They go do it. Nobody can hear them. Nobody can understand. They almost starve

17:06and they come back. That was the premise and foundation for what developed because from that

17:13root developed the notion that, A, it's the human in control of the words for prophecy. That's why we

17:22have the schools of the prophets. B, the humans don't really need to understand it. The prophecy

17:28itself, having the experience is more powerful than what God is speaking through the person.

17:34And C, you can have this thing and it might be incorrect, but if you get two or three of them,

17:42we take the batting average and we try to see which, which parts are correct of this mixture.

17:48So for me, when I heard the word prophet, for me, this was a loaded language. It was a loaded

17:54language to mean that it is an inaccurate, boastful, nonsensical experience and that experience is

18:02the greatest thing on earth. That's how I was taught. And I'm in a normal church that doesn't

18:08have any of this. It wasn't a charismatic church. And when they started talking prophecy, my head went

18:14that direction. But they were actually talking about an event where God is speaking to the people.

18:19They clearly know what God wants them to hear. And it is 100% correct because God is all-knowing.

18:26That's the path they were headed. My path was completely backwards.

18:30I remembered one of the guys I talked about in the beginning, that was John G. Lake. I remember

18:38him very specific because some of the people in my congregation started to read his books.

18:45And one of his magic formulas was to declare what you will or what you want to speak into existence.

18:57In, I don't know how much declare is used in America or in the UK, but in Germany, it's a very old term.

19:08I declare. And that's a very old term or even a more law specific term to declare. So when these people

19:18around me that I knew from youthhood, yeah, started to talk like, I declare in the name of Jesus,

19:27that was ridiculous. And you could tell they started because of the books from John G. Lake.

19:34And I mean, you don't have to be an English expert to Google for him and to find out that this guy is

19:43really a felon. He was sentenced in the USA and fled to Africa to just start a new cult because he

19:55couldn't do his thing here in America anymore. Or, of course, in your country, I'm in Germany,

20:01but you understand what I want to say. And one other interesting thing is because of our first

20:09interview, I got contacted by people from all over the world, from Australia, America, from Germany, from

20:17Ostrich, Österreich, I think you call it Ostrich, right? Very, very interesting. And there was a

20:25I'm really thankful. I learned a lot through our interview. I even learned a lot more because of

20:32all the engagement afterwards. And one thing that was in some kind of way, it's a strong term,

20:43but I use it, some kind of healing for me was when I met another Brennamite here in Germany. He's a very

20:51cool guy. We talked for hours. I was walking with him through the park, like half of the night from

20:57like, it was wonderful, wonderful engagement, wonderful discussion. And I talked and I told

21:04him my story, my youthhood, my time in Charismania. And I don't know why, but we talked more specific

21:12about a charismatic center here in Baden-Württemberg called the Glaubenszentrum. And I told him that

21:20my experience with the environment from the Glaubenszentrum was very strange. And one of

21:27the reasons why I distanced myself from the congregation I was in. And as I talked, he was

21:35like snapping in and he was, you know what, I know the guy that founded the Glaubenszentrum. He's the

21:43ex-manager of William Brennam. And we started to Google it. And that's very interesting. I always

21:50thought the Glaubenszentrum A, the people there, the language there is so strange. And sometimes even

21:57occult. These people are wackos. Okay, these people are wackos. And now I know the reason for it.

22:05When William Brennam was lost, lost his congregation, his entire business, you can say. It's a business,

22:13yeah. Lost his entire business. His manager was fleeing to Germany just to build a new

22:21that's called the Glaubenszentrum. And if you know that, then everything else makes sense.

22:26There's one last example. They have a fellow called Maria Prean. It's a very like Joyce Meyer,

22:44like the nice old lady. And she's talking wild stuff. One of her stories is like she was sitting in a

22:52plane, talking to God, like they were casually chatting. She's describing casually chatting with

22:59God. And then God says, you are not the savior of Uganda. Literally. So she was like, ah, that humbled me.

23:11And there was a huge stone falling off my shoulders because I was not responsible anymore. God would

23:19do this for me. Yeah. I'm so thankful for that because God is now reigning Uganda, and I don't

23:28have to do it anymore. These kind of stories are so – these people are wackos, really. These are

23:34business people sucking every cent and every euro from their congregation with these wild stories.

23:41Unbelievable. And now I know where it's coming from because I met the German Brennamite. Unbelievable.

23:48And there's a deeper unbelievable story there, which I – it would be a podcast in of itself,

23:54probably a series, that we probably should do because you're in Germany. William Brennan's campaign

24:00manager, when he went to Germany, there's a lot of conspiracy around this. Yeah. And it ties to this

24:07because of deceptive language. Yeah. So this was a man, his name was – he was the adopted

24:14cousin of Werner von Blumberg, the Minister of Defense for Hitler. And his name was William T. Frere von

24:25Blumberg. He was, in the United States, the – I think he was director of the organization that became

24:33what is called now the Fellowship International, the family. This is the one who holds the National

24:39Prayer Breakfast, who influences all of the politicians in Washington. NAR is tied directly

24:45to this because this is a big deal. This is a way to basically to sway political vote and politicians.

24:51What a rabbit hole. You're describing a huge rabbit hole, right?

24:54This is a massive rabbit hole. Yeah.

24:57But where I'm headed with it is this. So he was William Brennan's campaign manager. Yeah.

25:03Interestingly, at the time in which Jim Jones of Jonestown, Guyana, the one who – his cult

25:10created this commune in Jonestown and committed mass suicide, that's the point in time in which

25:17he joins into the movement. And William T. Frere von Blumberg was quite open in his homosexuality,

25:26but not to the people. It was a little bit deceptive. And there's evidence that strongly

25:32suggests he also was not Christian. But he ran an organization that was establishing similar

25:41organizations that could push political votes in other countries. So it was like this global dominion

25:49thing that he was setting up. The CIA has declassified some of the documents. They were interested in him

25:58partially because of his homosexuality. Because here's a guy who's in this movement who openly

26:04blasts anybody who is even questioned as being homosexual. And it's being led by a man who is

26:11openly gay and who is having – I don't know if you know the word call boys, but basically prostitutes,

26:20young prostitutes. They were bringing young prostitutes into his hotel room at night, apparently,

26:25and he almost got caught. So either the CIA or the FBI, one of the two, was following him because of this.

26:32You can find that document on my website if you type in William T. Frere von Blumberg.

26:37So he's setting all of this up. And they eventually set up a commune through him. They set up this

26:45organization in Germany that was working closely with Paul Schaeffer. Paul Schaeffer is the one who

26:54goes to South America, sets up the compound in South America that the Nazis referred to as the colony.

27:02Because the Nazis would escape Germany into the colony, then they go to Argentina. He was the

27:07security detail for the organization whenever it was in Germany, led by William T. Frere von Blumberg.

27:14So that rabbit hole is a massive rabbit hole. But take a step back from all of that and think about

27:20the language. So these people talk with Christian words. Many times they don't really believe the

27:27Christianity behind it. This guy, he clearly, if you understand his life and his lifestyle, this was,

27:34in my opinion, this was not a Christian man. But he's leading Christian organizations of men,

27:40some of which I also question among those who he chose to lead, whether they were Christian as well.

27:47But they use words in such a way that it sounds Christian, but it has a twofold meaning. In other words,

27:56you can say it and a Christian might believe that you're talking about the Christian thing.

28:00If you're not Christian, you would understand it's talking about the other thing. So it's a very

28:04divisive, very, very confusing language.

28:08Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

28:13modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements

28:20into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's

28:26website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John

28:33Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

28:40audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation

28:46on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,

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28:57be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.

29:03On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

29:08We have a similar cultural phenomenon in Germany, because we have this culture of

29:17the good German. And over time, I realized that many of my fellow Christian brothers

29:31are deceived by thinking that being a good German is like being a good Christian. They would mix up

29:41German values with Christian values. And that's a huge problem. The disconnect there isn't,

29:50it's, yeah, in some kind of way, it's a similar language. It's a similar morality. But it doesn't have

29:59the same basis. It doesn't have the same source. And it doesn't have the same goal. And that's very

30:09interesting to me. That's something that I learned over time. In Germany, we have a huge problem with

30:15being a good German, um, while thinking that's what it means to be a good Christian.

30:25And in this, you can talk about this very interestingly, in contrast to the American people.

30:36The German people are, um, we, we call it Staatshörig, Staatshörig, uh, like, um,

30:47the state over everything, everything the state has to say is the truth. We follow the state. We love

30:54the state. Our politicians always want the best for us. So if you asked in the past, how could this

31:02happen in relation to World War Two and Hitler? There's your answer. I don't know where this comes

31:09from. But there are books written all over it. There's, um, you will find thousands of videos on

31:16YouTube about this topic, the good German, and why Germans are so like, like a dog, uh, in relation to

31:26their state. I don't know a good English term for it, but it's dog-like behavior. We call it Staatshörig,

31:33like, like the state is their God. Okay. And it's for, for, for us, for the German, it's most important

31:40to be a good state citizen. There's a similar, there's a very specific feeling for bearing,

31:47being part of the bureaucracy, like Beamter sein. Um, it's a very special branch of, um, like, uh,

32:00yeah, my, my English is not good enough, but it's interesting for me. Um,

32:05these people are good Germans and think of themselves. We are good Christians because we

32:12are good Germans, but these things are sometimes even, uh, diametral, uh, in, in difference. Yeah.

32:21Very interesting. It is. We have this somewhat in the States. We call it patriotic. We're very patriotic.

32:29And there is, you know, when, when you're thinking in terms of, um, American religion today,

32:36there's what is called Christian nationalism and what it is, it has bred. I know Doug Wilson,

32:42I have a huge library here from him. I don't, I don't share, um, uh, every view of him, but, uh, his,

32:48uh, his books on, uh, on education are very good. The idea is that to be a good Christian,

32:56you must also be a patriotic American in some of these circles, which I have really no problem

33:03with this, where it gets a little bit crazy is that the ideologies of what they consider Christian

33:09aren't sometimes from the Bible. They're from the lineage that it comes from and their ideas of what

33:15it means to be patriotic isn't really American. It comes from all kinds of other influences. So in the

33:21end, what they're calling Christian patriotism or Christian nationalism, it isn't quite that.

33:27And interestingly has some ties back from influence from Germany. So likely this is where it came from

33:35this, this word that you said. Yeah. The problem starts, I think is when we start to measure our

33:41fellow Christians by patriotic measurements. Like if you're not patriotic enough, then you're not

33:48Christian enough. It's a good Christian thing to be patriotic, stuff like that. You can make

33:53countless examples like that. If you take worldly measurements, uh, uh, yeah, for your own fellow

34:00Christians, um, that's never healthy. Right. Absolutely. And it's so confusing too, because

34:07so take the younger crowd, people who are new, relatively new to Christianity. They have only what

34:14their parents have taught them. And then they're coming into adolescence and adulthood, that stage

34:20where they're really moldable, but yet don't really understand the deep understandings of the Bible.

34:29They, they understand basically the superficial things of the Bible. And they hear like the good

34:35Catholic that always goes on, on, on Christmas to church like that. I believe in God, right?

34:40Exactly. So take that type of person as they're being molded by a pastor and they're hearing these

34:45things. Some of the things that they hear in the language they hear, they're applying it to

34:50Christianity and not understanding the difference between the two. So here's where it gets a little

34:56problematic for me. You can actually have a church with a person who is extremely over the top patriotic

35:03and half the congregation, the adults, they realize that he, a lot of what he says is not,

35:11maybe himself doesn't even believe it. It's just over the top. It's more, um, yeah, it's more excitement

35:17and it, it is entertaining. They attract people into these crowds because it's entertaining speech.

35:22Yeah. Well, to the younger generation, they don't know the difference between what is the entertaining

35:27speech and what is actually in the Bible. And they associate both with one and the same.

35:33Well, when those children raise into adults, their views are so skewed. And we're starting to see

35:39the fruits of that today as, as people are now entering into the ministry, having a different

35:44version of what they believe is Christianity in their head that comes from this lineage of this

35:49entertaining speech. And it all goes back down to the word spoken, the speech patterns, the speech

35:55patterns, if not accurate and correct and biblical in a Christian setting can lead to a different

36:02religion that is not even Christianity, but bears the same name.

36:05Yeah, it's exactly what we are talking about. We have a similar kind of problem because of the

36:12huge esoteric background from the hippie generations, raising up children. And now we have like,

36:20Christian leaders like Johannes Hartl, he's engaging and bringing language into Christianity like

36:31in deine Kraft kommen, in Resonanz gehen, bei dir bleiben, yeah, things like that resonating,

36:42I think you get it, yeah, coming into your power. And he's engaging, especially young people. And

36:51that's very interesting. He's Catholic. But he played a new game. He understood that to

36:58raise the Catholic congregations, he has to engage with charismatic teens, because they are uneducated,

37:17and they live by euphoria, basically. And if he uses language like, come into your power,

37:24get into resonance, stuff like that. It's void language, but it sounds exciting. And you can project,

37:33I don't know if that's the right term in English, but projizieren, you can project your own identity,

37:44your own superficial illusion of God into these words. And they will make your experience with God,

37:53with the church, with the Holy Spirit. Yeah, that's a huge problem. And to explain to these people that

38:02that this kind of language isn't Christian, no matter, it doesn't matter if the person like Johannes

38:10Hartl is morally good. A morally good person is not Christian. A Christian person is someone that is,

38:19excuse my harsh language there, but is enslaved to Christ, and to Christ only.

38:29That's what makes a Christian someone that throws his life on Jesus. That's all. That's the entire

38:36thing, you can call it. And everything else is just circus, just fireworks.

38:41And you know, that's part of the reason why I question whether some of the groups that have

38:47descended from this movement are even Christian. Because the way that they present themselves,

38:53they are not, they are not. If you were to take the name Jesus out and put some other

38:56religious figure in, you can make it fit. It's like an open mold of religions, right? You can make anything

39:04fit. And it's all about the feel-good aspects of it. If you can make the audience feel good and

39:11entertained, they're going to come and listen. It doesn't matter what you say. And to the children

39:16who come and listen, they're not even trying to decipher what is Christian words and what is not.

39:23They just take it all in as church. This is our church. We're hearing Christian speech,

39:27so therefore it must be biblical. And so they assume that this religion they're in is Christianity.

39:32But what it becomes is it's, as we talked about last time, it's a cult of emotions.

39:38And those emotions are driven by the words used. Because if they can prey upon your emotions with

39:44the words, and they can bring you to this, you call it the state of euphoria. There's different

39:50states that you can bring people into. You can bring them into mourning or needing help, all of these

39:55things. It's cult of emotion and manipulation. If you can do this with your words, and then

40:02towards the end of it, you bring them to this very happy feel-good climax,

40:06which is like almost every charismatic sermon you've ever heard, right?

40:11Into the charismatic climax of the sermon. Well, it's actually the words that brought you into that

40:16euphoric state. It isn't the God. It isn't the Bible. It's really the way that they have

40:22structured the words. And again, you can take any, you can take any religious leader you want,

40:29stick him in that frame, and you would have people devoted to that cause.

40:33Yeah, like a Lego Baukasten, like, like a, I don't know the word for it, like, like Lego,

40:41like a recipe, like, yeah. Now we are talking business. And that's exactly what it is. Because

40:49in Germany, there's a word, we call it Etikettenschwindel, like a packaging fraud. So

40:56in Germany, we are in a state where people are willing to pay triple or even more money on a banana

41:06that's vegan or bio. It's the same banana. But if there's a label on it that says bio and vegan,

41:16it's triple the price and has this special kind of feature. In Germany, we call it Zusatznutzen

41:24in the sense of marketing. So there it's, it's not a real feature. It's not a real inherent feature.

41:31But in the sense of marketing, you can declare it onto it. So it has this feature for the person

41:40you want to catch. So this is the exact same phenomena. You take whatever esoteric, void, fantastic

41:49firework language, and put the stamp Jesus on it. And in that moment, it becomes Christian.

41:57Uh, talk about music, talk about books, Sarah Young, uh, we were talking about this, um,

42:04like a prophetic writing. Sarah Young was one of the fellows here in Germany, uh, selling a books,

42:10like my love letters to Jesus. Angels were talking to me. I was writing it down. I experienced the same

42:18stuff just, just for, for making fun of it. I was in a congregation that was, um, uh, having a, um,

42:26prophetic picture evening. And really I, I went to one of them like, ah, please give me a prophetic

42:36word. And he was talking to me like, um, ah, I have a revelation. I see you as a beautiful flower

42:43and your smell attracts people. I wasn't laughing then. I was just there to, uh, to experience this,

42:56to talk about this, to reflect this with the people of the congregation. Some of them were my friends.

43:03Like, guys, what are you doing? He was talking about me. Like I have a revelation. You're a flower

43:09and your smell is attracting people. What kind of buffoonery is this? Unbelievable. Back to business.

43:18Yes. For these kinds of people in Germany, like Johannes Hartl, it's just a business. Nothing

43:25else. They will use every label, every feature that's, uh, uh, morally good in the eyes of the

43:33people like any trademark, like any trademark for, for, uh, uh, for my, my clothes that I can identify

43:40with. Yeah. Like soldier clothes, uh, uh, hyper attractive women clothes. You get it, right?

43:47Yeah. It's ridiculous. And, and the people buy into it, especially because they are young and are

43:56not well Christian educated. We have the same thing in the States. It's called false advertisement.

44:03You advertise something, but what you're advertising isn't true. And so therefore it is illegal in the

44:08United States. There, there are penalties that you face for it, but in the churches, this is where the

44:14gray area hits. Yeah. The product they're selling isn't a tangible product. It's a spiritual product.

44:21And the government does not know how to put laws around the spiritual product. And in fact, many

44:26of the laws are written such that they can't put laws around the spiritual product. But here for me,

44:32this is where it turns into the gray area. They are selling tangible products. They're selling books

44:38that have these false advertisement claims. People who saw angels and demons. Here's, here's something,

44:44some, something interesting for you. In Germany, we call it Heilsversprechen.

44:48You know, it's such a problem because so the books they're selling, the videos there. If you go to the

44:58Branham Cult headquarters, they're talking about the life story of Branham. They're selling this life

45:03story. None of it's true. I mean, there, there are maybe five out of 50 details that are true in it. The

45:09whole rest of it is fiction. So at what point can you say that the product they're selling, these life story

45:16videos and, you know, DVDs, etc. At what point is that false advertisement? And it turns into this

45:22really gray area because the government does not want to come into the church and take over the

45:29legalities of the products sold by the churches. Yeah. On the one hand, it's a huge kind of freedom

45:35that you have there in, in the USA. On the other hand, it's a huge problem because it, um,

45:43on the Sean Ryan show just a week ago, uh, look it up, uh, on the Sean Ryan show, there was a specialist.

45:52Um, he was, uh, he is, uh, he has some, uh, kind of cultural roots as I have, like skating,

46:00hip hop music, stuff like that. And he was making, um, marketing videos for, uh, companies like Oakley,

46:09the sunglasses company, like snowboarding, all the white stuff. Uh, and after he came to faith,

46:16he made some experiences with guys like Joel Osteen, like praising you to heaven on earth.

46:23Uh, just give me a 10th, give me your money and you will get it 10 fold back. Yeah.

46:29And so he started a business specializing in exposing these guys with the help of the CIA,

46:38because there's a interest, uh, in the American state, uh, for, um, uh, not wire fraud, but, um,

46:50tax fraud. So when everything can be called a church, uh, is it a 401? There's a special,

46:59like we have a fine for you. It's a 401. I think it's 501. 501 ruling. So as soon as you call it a church,

47:08uh, you don't have to pay taxes anymore. Yeah. And, um, guys like Joel Osteen, let's take him as a

47:16prime example, know that and started to make a business out of it. And one of the examples in

47:21the Sean Ryan show was, um, he, when, when this guy was interviewing guys in the, in the jail,

47:28some of them were really talking like, when I will, when I'm out of jail, I don't, uh, found a new

47:33mafia. I just found a church. That's, that's the bigger scam. Uh, yeah. Unbelievable. And that's

47:42exactly what we are experiencing now, uh, with these young, uneducated people that don't have the time

47:50or the experience, nor the wisdom to read the Bible for themselves and under, and to understand

47:58what they are reading. Absolutely. And the fact that this has enabled people to literally turn

48:06their structures of church into a business and prey upon the people in such a way that literally

48:12it is false advertisement, what they're doing. It's so, it's so troubling that this has been allowed to

48:18continue for so long. And no matter which trail of history you, you go into every one of those histories

48:26goes into this entertaining form of speech. You'll find the old revivals that happened in,

48:33you know, throughout the history of the United States, some in different various countries. What

48:37happened was there was somebody who had a, who was a motivational speaker is what he was,

48:42got a lot of people very excited and created what is really could be considered a rally. You get a bunch

48:48of people rallying around what you're saying, but using the word Christ with it. And some of these

48:54movements turned out awful, but the speech, this patterns of speech is what attracted the people,

48:59not the God that they were pretending to announce. I'm very outspoken of this. I would say,

49:05let's take for example, Mormons or, um, uh, here's a very, I talked to, to a friend of mine, uh, a few weeks

49:16ago. And I explained to her that in Germany, we now have a problem of some kind of lost language,

49:22because in the past, when you were reading a lot in literature, there was a difference between,

49:29let's say the Bedouin people, um, uh, the people from Persia and the Mohammedana. So, uh, older literature

49:41would make a huge difference between a Muslim and let's say a Bedouin or Persian.

49:50This difference is no longer. You don't find it in literature. You don't find it in the common

49:56language, everyday language. You don't find this difference in the media. So we are putting, um,

50:03Bedouin people, Persian people in the same melting pot with Muslims. And I'm sorry, Muslims are no

50:11Christians. Don't believe in the same God as we do. Don't believe in the same Abraham. Don't believe

50:17in the same God as the Jews. It's a completely different thing, just like the Mormons. There are

50:25even the similarity, very interest, interesting similarities between the history of the Mormons

50:31and the history of the Quran and Mohammed. Their entire narrative is very similar and their teachings

50:39are wild. Uh, the, the conclusions are wild. So when you said a few minutes ago, um, there's this very

50:49strange gray area in spiritual matters. Um, this is some kind of battle I am, I am fighting right now.

50:57And, um, you asked the question at which point is something not healthy anymore?

51:04So if you take a sporty person, yeah, doing, uh, two, two, uh, two training sessions per week,

51:12going for work, having some time with their kids at the weekend, this is a healthy person. So they start

51:19to eat burgers, uh, with their colleagues at work, still a healthy person. They start to make party

51:26eat burgers, start smoking at the Wheaton when they are at the parties. Is this still a healthy person?

51:39At which, at which specific time, um, can you not speak of a healthy person anymore? And it's a very,

51:48you can, um, make the same example for Christians. If you are, uh, what's the word for it? Um, uh,

51:57this, um, there's a huge movement of people, um, that are, um, coming off faith.

52:05There are two different movements. There is deconverting and deconstructing.

52:09Deconstructing. So, um, how many false narratives, false superficial views on Jesus,

52:19uh, wrong language, wrong books, wrong teachings, false teachers make a Christian, not a Christian

52:29anymore. And that's very hard to say, very hard to tell. And in the end, it's not on us to say this

52:36person isn't saved. It's really complex. I'm not using your words like, like, no, it's,

52:43it's really complex. There's a life story to it. There's faith to it, spirituality to it, language to

52:49it, culture to it. Absolutely. And that's a deeper topic that we could probably do in another podcast.

52:57In fact, I just had an email today and I'll bet I had three last week on the same subject.

53:03There, there are people deconverting. And the problem is from the example that I'm giving,

53:09and I'm not trying to pick on somebody, but this is a very common example and this is how they all

53:14come. They see the people who are helping others escape cults, some of which are deconverting,

53:22some of which are just simply deconstructing. They see it as a problem because there's not a

53:27human controlling where they go. And they, the email specifically said, we have this,

53:33we have this problem with deconversion and deconstructing because there isn't a human

53:37that is helping them along their way. And the question is for me, it's which, which God are

53:43they deconverting from is the first question because was it even a Christian God? They, in my opinion,

53:50many of them haven't been a Christian to begin with. And many of the people trying to help them also

53:55don't really understand the God that's in the Bible. But the bigger question is the Holy Spirit

54:02is the one to take you on this journey, not a human. And like you said, you can't say that

54:07somebody is not saved. How can you say this? Who can know this, but God, and who can know what

54:12journey that they have to put somebody through? God may put somebody through very, very, very hard

54:18times, may even take them to the brink of hell and back so that they can have a greater story

54:24to tell others and go on and help other people to convert. So you can't really say that a human

54:30needs to be in control of this. That's, that's one of my topics that I get very emotional about

54:36because there are people who really, really fight whenever people are coming in contact with critical

54:43information. They want to stop it. They do not want the critical information out. And the easiest

54:48way to stop it is to say, well, these people are, they're leaving God and they need a human

54:52to be their leader to God. I think you and I are good examples

55:00for God taking our hand, leading us the way, but we never let loose of this hand, right? God was leading

55:08us the way. I came to faith in a charismatic environment, strong charismatic environment,

55:17but I was still holding on to God. I could make a difference between truth and people. And

55:29this kind of difference takes a lot of, and there's the topic again, maturity.

55:34Um, even let's, let's say, um, it's the same kind of maturity you need when you're on the battlefield

55:42of, uh, evangelizing people. Here's the, here's the, um, the good news. I told you everything I know.

55:54And from that moment on, I'm no longer responsible from that moment on. There must be God touching this

56:02person. There must be the Holy Spirit making the words. I told them the truth.

56:10They will only recognize them as truth, uh, through the Holy Spirit. And that's not my responsibility.

56:17It takes a lot of maturity. It takes a lot of experience. It takes a lot of thought to be there

56:23there and to wait for God, um, to, to reach out to this person. After that happens, when you see the

56:32works of the Holy Spirit in this person, you are responsible. Take them by the hand, uh, show them

56:37the Bible, um, take them to your congregation, share time with them, um, share your table with them,

56:44right? Things like that. But that takes a lot of maturity experience, wisdom.

56:51And it takes a lot of trust and to trust the God that you believe. Yeah, of course. The big thing,

56:57like, um, what's it going to do at the ocean, at the ocean, there may be somebody who's standing

57:02there calling out, there's danger in the water. Do not swim out there. And there's somebody out

57:06there swimming. Well, this isn't the person who goes and rescues them. There's usually somebody else

57:10who comes with the rescue crew. So the people who are looking at religion and saying, there's danger in

57:16this water. Don't swim there. They may not be the minister who is helping to guide them or,

57:21you know, whatever is the person that, that this email is suggesting. But anyway, that could be

57:26another topic for another day. I can probably think of 50 good topics you and I could do.

57:31Thank you so much for doing this.

57:34I can learn from this because I actually have to engage in a different language that,

57:39that always, always leads to new thoughts or new ways of describing things. And by describing the

57:46things I learn a lot by listening to you, to your experiences, I learn a lot. The people that are

57:51engaging with me because of the interview, I learn a lot. That's a huge blessing for me.

57:56Well, it's extremely fun to learn and grow and become a better person. So glad you're doing this.

58:02If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

58:06You can find us at william-branum.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation,

58:11you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

58:26For more information, you can check us out on the web.

58:39See you.

Loaded Language in the Charismatic Movement | Christian Thomaßen | Episode 430

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