- 2 days ago
John and Charles discuss the excitement surrounding their Q&A format, contrasting it with William Branham’s staged “question and answer” sermons that often advanced hidden agendas. They explain how real questions from their listeners differ from Branham’s scripted ones, and they set boundaries around sensitive topics like the disappearance of Sarah Branham. Much of the conversation centers on Derek Prince, his work with Branham, and his influence on the Shepherding Movement. They emphasize how Prince’s teachings about Christians having both good and evil spirits twisted scripture and opened doors to abuse. The hosts also connect these issues to the rise of authoritarian leadership structures in the Fivefold Ministry model, showing how such frameworks often evolve into cult-like systems.
They further explore how Branham’s influence extended into movements like the Shepherding Movement, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), and the spread of worship music through Vineyard, Bethel, and Hillsong. The discussion highlights how entertainment models, from tent revivals to contemporary worship, became tools for church growth while often minimizing the biblical message. They also address the Toronto Blessing and Wimber’s struggles with excesses in the Vineyard movement, showing how blurred boundaries between biblical authority and spectacle produced long-term problems. Throughout, John and Charles stress the importance of recovering erased histories, noting how sympathetic historians often whitewash Branham’s role in the second wave of Pentecostalism. They close by reflecting on their research process, recommending scholarly sources, and reaffirming their goal of documenting hidden or neglected history so future generations can learn from past mistakes.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Legendary Q&A Sessions and Their Problems
04:46 Sensitive Topics and Boundaries
05:16 Derek Prince’s Work With Branham
07:06 Good Spirit, Evil Spirit, and Biblical Contradictions
08:33 Fivefold Ministry and Authoritarian Models
12:31 Twisting Scripture for Financial Gain
16:45 Misreading of Ephesians and Leadership Claims
17:45 Shepherding Movement and Its Roots
21:01 Prince’s Continued Influence After 1980
23:45 Testimony of Abuse Under Shepherding Ideology
26:03 A Different Gospel and Twisted Foundations
28:02 Mixing Truth With Harmful Ideas
32:24 Excuses and Slippery Leadership
32:31 Worship Music, Entertainment, and Church Growth
36:43 From Tent Revivals to Institutionalized Worship
40:05 Toronto Blessing and Vineyard Separation
43:04 Covering Up the Latter Rain Movement
44:34 Scholarship on Branham’s Influence
47:33 John Wimber’s Pastoral Letters
50:04 Research Sources and Recommended Reading
52:56 Why Documenting Erased History Matters
55:01 Closing Remarks______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: htt
They further explore how Branham’s influence extended into movements like the Shepherding Movement, the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), and the spread of worship music through Vineyard, Bethel, and Hillsong. The discussion highlights how entertainment models, from tent revivals to contemporary worship, became tools for church growth while often minimizing the biblical message. They also address the Toronto Blessing and Wimber’s struggles with excesses in the Vineyard movement, showing how blurred boundaries between biblical authority and spectacle produced long-term problems. Throughout, John and Charles stress the importance of recovering erased histories, noting how sympathetic historians often whitewash Branham’s role in the second wave of Pentecostalism. They close by reflecting on their research process, recommending scholarly sources, and reaffirming their goal of documenting hidden or neglected history so future generations can learn from past mistakes.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Legendary Q&A Sessions and Their Problems
04:46 Sensitive Topics and Boundaries
05:16 Derek Prince’s Work With Branham
07:06 Good Spirit, Evil Spirit, and Biblical Contradictions
08:33 Fivefold Ministry and Authoritarian Models
12:31 Twisting Scripture for Financial Gain
16:45 Misreading of Ephesians and Leadership Claims
17:45 Shepherding Movement and Its Roots
21:01 Prince’s Continued Influence After 1980
23:45 Testimony of Abuse Under Shepherding Ideology
26:03 A Different Gospel and Twisted Foundations
28:02 Mixing Truth With Harmful Ideas
32:24 Excuses and Slippery Leadership
32:31 Worship Music, Entertainment, and Church Growth
36:43 From Tent Revivals to Institutionalized Worship
40:05 Toronto Blessing and Vineyard Separation
43:04 Covering Up the Latter Rain Movement
44:34 Scholarship on Branham’s Influence
47:33 John Wimber’s Pastoral Letters
50:04 Research Sources and Recommended Reading
52:56 Why Documenting Erased History Matters
55:01 Closing Remarks______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: htt
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host, researcher, minister, and friend,
00:46Charles Paisley, the founder of christiangospelchurch.org, and the author of Come Out of Her, My People.
00:53Charles, it's good to be back and to go through questions and answers.
00:57I never expected people to get so excited about us answering questions as they have.
01:04I don't know if you watch the comment feeds, but somebody just yesterday was posting,
01:08oh boy, some questions and answers.
01:11And when we were in the message, and I was sitting in that hard wooden chair in those
01:16uncomfortable seats in the tabernacle for two and a half hours of sitting, or longer, sometimes
01:21longer, whenever it was a questions and answers sermon by William Branham, I hated it.
01:27I did not like those, because the questions themselves, I really questioned whether they
01:34were actually written by the crowd or the audience, because some of the questions were just so skimming
01:40the surface.
01:41Everybody had deep questions, and you would think they would submitted the ones that were
01:46more difficult to answer, and they're sending just the silliest stuff in some cases.
01:51And in most cases, the questions seemed to be strategic, because it would be, I don't
01:56know if you caught this, but a question would be quote-unquote submitted, and then it would
02:02lead to other sermons about that question.
02:05So it was like, I'm going to put this question out there, and then I'm going to build a whole
02:10doctrine on top of it.
02:11So we're not doing that, we're answering the questions at the end of our series, and
02:15people can go search the comment feeds, and you can see where we actually got them, but
02:20it is so much different than what I grew up with.
02:22William Branham's question and answer series are pretty legendary, and also legendarily
02:27funny, too.
02:29You know, if you even look through the comment feeds, you'll see some of the people say,
02:32we know you people in Jeffersonville are all idiots, because we read the questions you
02:36asked of the prophet.
02:36But you'll actually see that in some of our comments.
02:42I've seen that as the response as to why, you know, the people in Jeffersonville are
02:46illegitimate message followers, because they ask the prophet dumb questions in the question
02:49and answer series.
02:50And I have to agree, pretty well every question people ask William Branham, boy, it was a really
02:55dumb question.
02:56And you're correct, John.
02:57Those are not the questions that everyone had on their minds, which, yeah, you know, did
03:02anyone even ask some of those questions?
03:04I mean, there was a few mentally ill people that probably asked some of those questions,
03:08but for the most part, I mean, who knows who put those questions in the pot?
03:12It was probably you-know-who.
03:14Yeah.
03:15It was probably the one answering the question who put that one in the pot.
03:19I know at our churches, too, John, like question and answers was a thing that continued afterwards.
03:24And the same thing, right?
03:25Like, they wouldn't read the questions that they didn't like, and then they tended to just
03:30read questions that advanced their agenda, right?
03:34It's just kind of how it is.
03:35But we're not doing that necessarily, John.
03:37We're just actually going in our comment feed and reading real questions, so we'll put them
03:40up here on the screen so you can see.
03:43We got lots of comments on these videos.
03:45I know there is one video that we got a lot of questions on that we're actually not going
03:53to answer any questions in this Q&A here on it.
03:57So we'll be real upfront about that one.
03:59And it's actually the Sarah Branham disappearance video.
04:02I can totally understand why people have all kinds of questions around that.
04:08But there are certain things around that that you and I have decided it's just not in the
04:13best interest of everyone involved to discuss those details any more than we already have
04:20in the podcast.
04:20What I will say, John, is there is actually a bit more in my book, and this is free on
04:26Kindle Unlimited.
04:27I'm not trying to sell you a book, but there is more in this book than I think we feel
04:31comfortable publishing in our YouTube videos and YouTube channels about that situation.
04:37So that's out there, free on Kindle Unlimited, if you wanted to check that out.
04:43So, yeah, Sarah Branham.
04:46Now, let's jump to maybe our very first question here, John.
04:50And I don't have these in any particular order, but we're basically looking at the questions
04:56that came off of our NAR videos, New Apostolic Reformation videos, when we recorded our first
05:01Q&A.
05:03Those videos hadn't all been out yet.
05:05So let's just look at a few of these here and see.
05:09Some of these are questions.
05:10Some of them are comments.
05:11But the first question here, John, is what's wrong with five-fold ministries?
05:17Derek Prince never worked with Branham.
05:20And yes, he did mention that Branham had an evil spirit, but you forgot to mention that
05:24on the same statement, he said Branham also had a good spirit in him.
05:29And he learned this through someone who worked closely with Branham, not his own discoveries.
05:34So let's unpack this statement here, all right?
05:37Well, I'll save the what's wrong with the five-fold ministry, but it says here, Derek
05:41Prince never worked with Branham.
05:43Well, that's wrong.
05:44They did work together.
05:45They shared the platform together.
05:47Derek Prince introduced Branham at the events.
05:50It's on tape.
05:51They work together, right?
05:52And actually, Derek Prince tended to deceive people when he said, when he pretended at times
05:58like he learned this from someone who worked close with William Branham.
06:01Um, he, he tended to do that.
06:03He was actually trying to evade the fact that he had personally worked with William Branham.
06:08There's only a couple times on tape that I'm aware of that Derek Prince actually admitted
06:12they worked together, but they did.
06:14They did work together.
06:15And the person who told that to him that worked closely with William Branham was Earn Baxter.
06:21That's who told that to Derek Prince, even though Derek Prince, you know, they have a way
06:25of doing this.
06:26You know, you'll notice message preachers, we're not going to say any name, but everybody
06:30knows who they're talking about.
06:32Just say their name, for goodness sakes.
06:33You're talking about Earn Baxter.
06:35And what that does is it kind of obfuscates things and kind of makes it seem a little mystique,
06:39but he's talking about Earn Baxter.
06:41Earn Baxter did indeed apparently tell Derek Prince that William Branham had a good spirit
06:46and an evil spirit in him.
06:48And Derek Prince believed it.
06:50And there's actually a recording where Derek Prince says that he was in the meeting and discerned
06:54that himself.
06:55So it was also Derek Prince who came to that belief through working directly with William
06:59Branham, again, by his own words.
07:02Now, here's the thing.
07:06Does it matter that he had a good spirit?
07:08I mean, if you knew he had an evil spirit, isn't that enough?
07:11I mean, you know, if it's half bad, isn't that, you know, enough to stay away?
07:15So again, Derek Prince here knew William Branham had an evil spirit and chose to work with
07:19him.
07:20And this whole thing, too, John, where someone could have an evil spirit and a good spirit
07:25in them at the same time, this was a big deal for Derek Prince.
07:29And it's part of how he justified and excused all kinds of things.
07:36I mean, that very premise, you know, can a Christian be demonically possessed, right?
07:43You know, I believe, John, the overwhelming majority of Christians would say, no, that is
07:48not possible.
07:49I believe, you know, the scripture would indicate to us also that is not possible.
07:53And Derek Prince is already out in the land of outside the Bible, honestly, the plain
07:58teaching of scripture, you know, to even suggest that a person can have both a good spirit
08:02and a bad spirit.
08:03I mean, in fact, Jesus, the words of Jesus would seem to contradict that.
08:08So anyways, those are just some very serious problems with these comments here already,
08:14okay?
08:14So he did work with William Branham.
08:17Does the, can you, can a Christian have an evil spirit?
08:19Uh, no, I don't think so.
08:22Not according to the Bible.
08:23Um, and if you think that you see that in the Bible, you are confused, I think.
08:28Um, and, yeah, Derek, Derek Prince is talking about Ernst Baxter and won't say it.
08:33Now, what's wrong with the five-fold ministry?
08:35Well, the five-fold ministry came out of the Latter Rain movement, okay?
08:38Um, the five-fold ministry teachings, as taught and developed in the Latter Rain, are not the,
08:44really, plain reading from scripture.
08:46Maybe we can talk about that just a little bit more at length, but,
08:49the five-fold ministry is the whole basis of the shepherding movement.
08:53It's the basis of the leadership model of the message.
08:56It is an authoritarian leadership model that tends to put the leadership, the, you know,
09:02a singular prophet or a single apostle in a leadership position of unchecked power,
09:07uh, in which they generally use that to effectively turn their group into a cult,
09:13where the leader has unlimited power over the people.
09:16That is generally what happens in these five-fold ministry models.
09:19I've mentioned a few times that whenever I examine the New Apostolic Reformation movement
09:25today, and its many branches in the apostolic networks, or the charismatic movement that
09:31preceded it, or any of the splinter groups that developed from Branimism that created the
09:37scenario in which all of this could exist, that I see these similarities.
09:42And not many people really understand that if they're in the movement.
09:46What's interesting is I can have a conversation with somebody who is never affected by it,
09:50and they're like, oh, yeah, I knew that.
09:52It's like, if you're in the movement, you are so blind to it because you've been indoctrinated
09:56in such a way that you can't see it.
09:59But on the outside looking in, everybody's like scratching their head.
10:02Why can't they see this?
10:04And what the movement did was it took something of substance that was biblical and then twisted
10:11it just a little bit so that any time they mention the thing that they're twisting, they
10:16can say, go back and read the Bible.
10:18Well, they've twisted it in your head, so it means a different thing than the Bible.
10:22But you go back and you find, what is it, Ephesians?
10:25It talks about the five-fold ministry.
10:27It's there.
10:27You read it.
10:28It's there.
10:29But what they're not telling you is that in Ephesians, it was a flat system.
10:34It was equal.
10:35Messenger, everybody was a servant.
10:37There's Jesus, and then there's everyone else.
10:40I don't care if you're a pastor.
10:41I don't care if you're an apostle.
10:42I don't care who you are.
10:43There's everyone else.
10:44There's Jesus, everyone else.
10:46But the way they did it in this movement, because you had showmanship.
10:51You had a stage act.
10:52The stage act needed to be greater than the people.
10:54Otherwise, why would you come pay to get a seat or offer tithes or however they did the
11:00money exchange?
11:01There's different ways they did.
11:03Why would you support this?
11:05Why not just go into your prayer room in your house and pray and say, hey, God, heal me?
11:09That's really all that you need to do as a Christian.
11:12But they're trying to present themselves as something that they're above you.
11:16They're greater than you.
11:17And how do you do this?
11:19You create a pyramid scheme.
11:20And so what they did was they took the fivefold, I hate to even use that word, they used the
11:26five offices that are mentioned in Ephesians, and they stacked them so that the apostles at
11:32the top, he's our general, then there's the prophets, he's the guy under it.
11:38And what's funny is then they began fighting over who got what.
11:41And eventually it ended up where there isn't really a fivefold ministry that exists in the
11:49movement.
11:50In Branhamism, for example, the apostle was the prophet.
11:53There was no greater office than the prophet.
11:55He was the head honcho, the messenger for the age.
11:59So there was Branham taught fivefold ministry.
12:01And we've even heard us.
12:03Somebody sent me a clip of Joseph Branham, William Branham's son, talking about, I believe
12:07the fivefold ministry.
12:08No, you don't.
12:09You believe in William Branham is the one and only fold ministry.
12:15And if you look at all these movements, like this guy with Derrick Prince.
12:17Derrick Prince is his superior being.
12:20He doesn't believe fivefold ministry.
12:22There's no four other offices that go with Derrick Prince.
12:25That's how this works.
12:27And to your point, the notion that Christians can have an evil spirit, and William Branham was
12:35both good and evil, he was both Thor and he was Loki at the same time.
12:40What kind of a message is this, man?
12:42What kind of a movement is built off of something that has both Thor and Loki?
12:47You don't know what statement's going to be coming from the devil and what statement's
12:51going to be coming from God.
12:52And the whole movement surrounded William Branham as though he's spearheading the movement.
12:56Well, they're spearheading a movement by the devil.
12:58That doesn't work.
12:59That's not how this works.
13:01And again, what they have done is they've taken scripture and they've slightly twisted
13:07it to their financial benefit.
13:10Because if they can teach you that somebody can unsuspectingly have an evil spirit hidden
13:16within them, and you need my deliverance ministry to cast it out, they don't even know they've
13:21got it.
13:22But if you come to me, I can detect it.
13:24I can do it.
13:26William Branham had the vibrating hand.
13:27I can do the vibrating hand and I can feel your demon and I'll cast it out.
13:31Where everybody's going, oh no, do I have one?
13:33And they come to this thing and offer their tithe.
13:36So it's not a movement by God.
13:38What it is, is they've taken biblical concepts, twisted it slightly so that it looks and sounds
13:44scriptural, and then the people, sadly, don't read their Bibles enough to know that, no,
13:50this whole thing, the entire foundation for the movement is false.
13:55That's very well said, John, because, you know, you're right.
13:57You read Ephesians 4.11, there is five types of preachers there mentioned, or perhaps four,
14:03depending on how some people read it.
14:05But four or five types of preachers there.
14:07And, yeah, the Apostle Paul said that Jesus sent those kind of preachers into the world,
14:13right?
14:14But it doesn't say all of the additional concepts that the five-fold ministry teachers build
14:23on top of it and around it, right?
14:27You know, we could get into lots of things around those verses, but the key thing that
14:32really empowers it and takes it off the rails, to me, it isn't actually the verse 11 that
14:37those five, you know, preachers were offices, were, you know, sent forth by Jesus.
14:42What really makes it go crazy is what they do with, like, verse 13, 14 in there, because
14:47they take those verses and say, it is the job of the last day set of these preachers to
14:53perfect the church, to give us perfect unity, to bring us to the stature of the fullness of Christ.
15:00And we must submit ourselves to this last day ministry, and we must have this special last day
15:05ministry in order for us to become these elite people.
15:08And then they subject themselves to it, just like the shepherding people did.
15:12That is exactly the rationale, you know, a version of that, which sent off the shepherding movement.
15:16It's a version of that that empowers the preachers, you know, in the message, in every branch of
15:21this ideology.
15:22It's the belief that they need these preachers in the last days in order to achieve verse,
15:29you know, 12, 13, 14, which comes next.
15:32But here's the thing, you can actually read that verse, those verses in such a way, and
15:37I would actually suggest the natural reading of those passages is the exact opposite of that.
15:42That the Apostle Paul is saying that Jesus gave, the word gave is past tense, isn't it?
15:48Gave in the past these preachers.
15:50So before Paul even wrote the book of Ephesians, Jesus gave these ministries.
15:56And so they were already given when Paul had wrote it down.
15:59And what Paul really there is saying is that everything you need to get to verse 12, 13,
16:0414 has already been given.
16:07And that's what we have in the Bible today, John.
16:09Right?
16:10So you don't need a last day ministry to get to verses, you know, 12, 13, 14.
16:17We have everything that was given in verse 11 for us.
16:19You know, we could, I could talk so much about scripture, John, but that's probably not super
16:24helpful for our podcast series.
16:25But that's the basic premise of it.
16:27You know, verse 11 is past tense.
16:30Paul is talking in the past tense in verse 11, right?
16:32So the past tense already gave what is necessary for the future tense as you come into the
16:38next verses.
16:39So anyway, John, that is, I think that's the best answer I know to give to that question.
16:46And there's another question that goes hand in hand with everything we've been saying.
16:49This person writes, I was discipled by Andy Zoppelt, who was in turn discipled by Derek Prince.
16:55He told me that when he came against Bob Mumford's discipling movement, he's talking about the
17:01shepherding movement by pointing out leaders should be servants.
17:05Derek backed him.
17:07And so this goes back to exactly what I was saying.
17:10They have indoctrinated people in such a way that if you're on the inside looking out, you
17:15can't see it.
17:16If you're on the outside looking in, everybody who reads the statement say, wait a minute,
17:20you're part of this movement where you're looking to people like Bob Mumford, you're looking
17:25to people like Derek Prince, and they're not your equals.
17:28They're greater than you.
17:30And yes, they claim that they're servants, but what does that mean?
17:34You've got people who are servants who are rising to apostles in the movement.
17:39Keep in mind, this shepherding movement is what became, this was the very foundation for
17:44what became today's NAR movement, where basically each apostle in the movement is your grand
17:51shepherd.
17:52It's like the grand poobah of the religious world, right?
17:56So they set up this framework, and they all go back to this movement.
18:00And this movement, it wasn't just, you know, Derek Prince rising against Bob Mumford.
18:05I'll let you talk through the history, but if you understand the history of this, all
18:09of these guys were doing it, whether they said that they were or not.
18:12Right.
18:12You know, when I look at this comment, I mean, to me, it doesn't make, it's not quite
18:18logical to me.
18:19So Bob Mumford's discipleship movement, what's that?
18:23So Bob Mumford joined the shepherding movement last, I believe.
18:30Derek Prince, it's Derek Prince's shepherding movement.
18:33It's Derek Prince's discipleship movement that Bob Mumford joined.
18:37And what you have is each group, each of the major leaders in this, Ern Baxter, Bob Mumford,
18:46Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham, each of these guys were more or less the head
18:52of their own semi-independent network of churches, is really the way to look at it.
18:58And they are, the five of them are cooperating together, more or less bringing their networks
19:04into cooperation with each other.
19:05And yes, each of them kind of have their own sphere of influence and their own, their
19:09own group who is, you might say, loyal, more loyal to them.
19:13So yeah, there were people who were more loyal to Bob Mumford, but the whole thing was a pyramid
19:20up to the top at which Bob Mumford, you know, was, was, was in that top pyramid level with
19:27Derek Prince.
19:28But Derek Prince was already in the top level before him.
19:30Right.
19:30And so, you know, I, I just, it's, I understand maybe from some people's perspective that maybe
19:37Bob Mumford is separate here, but he's not, he's not.
19:41Bob Mumford got the discipleship movement ideas from the same place Derek Prince did and
19:46they worked together and it was both of their discipleship movement.
19:50Okay.
19:50It wasn't Bob Mumford versus Derek, it was both of theirs.
19:54Right.
19:54And there's actually the letters where Derek Prince very openly and vocally defended all
19:59of this stuff when it was first challenged in the 1970s.
20:04Now, Bob Mumford's side of things, I, I do understand was one of the more, they were one of the
20:09more, became some of the more radical side of the shepherding movement that I am aware
20:13of.
20:14Uh, but I don't know.
20:15I mean, I might say Ernst Baxter's element was actually the most radical of all, um, probably
20:20the most like the message of it all as well.
20:23But anyways, I mean, uh, it, it's, it's hard for me to know just how to respond again to comments
20:27like that because obviously, uh, this is just, uh, when you're inside these movements, right,
20:34you've been often sold a line and given a line and you have a way of looking at things that's
20:39trying to exempt, you know, your hero or your idol from any culpability in this thing, right?
20:45But Derek Prince is not absolved from any culpability.
20:49I mean, Derek Prince was one of the key principal guys for launching the shepherding disciple
20:53movement.
20:54So it wasn't Bob Mumford's discipleship movement and that's kind of a,
20:57I don't know.
20:57I feel like that's just a little dishonest to even put it, like phrase it that way.
21:02The only thing that I'll add to this, as you mentioned, Derek Prince, he's, there are even,
21:07you can go to the full gospel businessmen's website and you can see the lineup of speakers.
21:11Sometimes Derek Prince is speaking right before William Branham.
21:14They're all cross-pollinating their ideas and their doctrines.
21:18Arne Baxter, the Baxter half of the Branham-Baxter campaigns was part, one of the leaders of the
21:23shepherding movement.
21:24So all of these guys emerged because of Branhamism, but what they did was they took the worst parts
21:31of William Branham's doctrine to create the shepherding movement.
21:34It's like, why would you pick the worst things?
21:37One of the doctrines that William Branham taught about shepherding, and I'll just, I'll read
21:41you his exact words, but his idea of a shepherd, again, it's like you take the Bible thing and
21:47you twist it just a little bit and you make it say something else.
21:51Well, he took morality, I guess, and twisted it a little bit and made it completely something
21:56else.
21:57Branham's shepherd doctrine was that a shepherd must break the legs of its sheep so that the
22:03sheep doesn't go astray.
22:05He gives an example.
22:06Well, he always did this in quote unquote parables, but he would say, oh, you must be a cruel shepherd
22:12to break your own sheep's leg.
22:14No, the sheep wouldn't mind me.
22:16So I had to break her leg in order to hold her, pet her, love her, and give her a little
22:20special food so that she would love me and follow me.
22:24Branham's idea of a shepherd is somebody who actually breaks the legs of the sheep.
22:28And this is the guy working with Arne Baxter.
22:31This is the guy that Derrick Prince is introducing as the, you know, Branham was the featured speaker
22:36in some of these events.
22:37This is a shepherd who believes that you can break the leg of your sheep.
22:42Let me give you another comment here, John, we can put up for people to read.
22:47And before I read this, let me preface this one.
22:49You know, we've, I've mentioned before how, you know, you'll get a lot of people that say,
22:53Derrick Prince left the movement and he repudiated and all that.
22:56And a lot of them will say he did it, you know, in 1980.
22:59That is supposedly when he left.
23:01That's when he, I know for sure he quietly seemed to have left the movement then, but
23:05he never really publicly came out against it in any way that I know of until roughly
23:101997.
23:11There are things he would say here and there where he would blame demons for having got
23:16into the movement and kind of made things, but actually rejecting the movement itself
23:20and the underlying ideology.
23:21I'm not aware of any comments like that from Derrick Prince until about 1997.
23:27Now, here's a comment though, and this is what was going on in this period.
23:30And this is why it's hard to, it's hard to know just how to characterize what Derrick
23:36Prince was doing in these years because he flirted and continued to go along with this
23:40ideology sort of under the table for quite a lot, a lot of years.
23:44So here's a comment.
23:45Our writer, our reader says, or our commenter says, I was surprised to hear that Derrick
23:50Prince had left the movement in 1980, right?
23:52So we get some comments objecting that, you know, that we didn't mention he left.
23:56Here's one, the surprise that he had left.
23:58She says, or he says, in 1980, as I fell afoul after he had visited my charismatic church
24:04in Belfast in 1984.
24:06I was in my 20s and only joined this particular church the year before, so I was pretty unfamiliar
24:11with the charismatic ideology, etc., but his name kept cropping up regularly.
24:16So when he visited that year, the church was overjoyed and spent a lot of time talking
24:21with him.
24:22From the start, I'd heard about the shepherding, but as a Methodist, I resisted getting into
24:26it for as long as possible.
24:29However, it became a mandatory element of worship after his visit.
24:34So in 1985, I submitted to have a married couple's husband take on the role.
24:39From that point on, things rapidly went downhill in my life as a direct result.
24:43And now she just goes on to describe the things that happened.
24:46And in this ideology, the shepherd over your life controls where you work, where you live,
24:50who you marry, all this stuff.
24:52So just keep that in mind as I read this next part.
24:53She says, I left my job as a vet nurse after Hugh insisted I was in spiritual danger as my
24:59boss's wife was into spiritualism.
25:02Then, as that made me homeless at the time, I went to live with Hugh and his wife in a servant
25:07capacity.
25:08And I'm going to stop reading there.
25:09And the situation for this person just goes downhill real quick.
25:13But what I just want to point out to you here is Derek Prince, I mean, despite what
25:18some people say, was still going around and still promoting the majority of the elements
25:23of shepherding and five-fold ministry throughout the entirety of the 1980s and even into the
25:30early 1990s for sure.
25:32The key elements that led to the abuse and the problems, Derek Prince never recanted that
25:37stuff as far as I know into the mid and late 1990s.
25:40And so while, again, we've said before, we're very glad he recanted.
25:43We're glad he changed his mind on a lot of this stuff.
25:47He continued to play with this ideology all along and lots of harm came out of it throughout
25:53the years.
25:54It's interesting to me that all the comments that we're looking at that came in about
25:58Derek Prince or the questions that came in, they take the indoctrinated idea, the method,
26:04where something is biblical but is slightly twisted, and then they believe that it is
26:10scriptural, even though it has been twisted slightly.
26:13This person commented and said, I've listened to Derek Prince for years.
26:18I may be different than the average Christian in that I've rejected a lot of his demon deliverance
26:22info.
26:23He had some weird ideas about certain subjects, but he was very good at spreading the gospel.
26:28I think he loved Jesus.
26:31You have to understand that if it is a different gospel, it can't be called spreading the gospel.
26:37Whenever you use the phrase spreading the gospel, it implies you're talking about the biblical
26:41gospel of Jesus Christ.
26:43But if the foundation is different, the foundation is such that Jesus came, he died for your sins
26:49to save you, and the work that he did on the cross isn't sufficient.
26:54That's the key.
26:56That's what these people have done.
26:58They've taken what Jesus did, and they said, it's not sufficient.
27:01So you need apostles.
27:02You need a prophet.
27:02You need deliverance ministers.
27:04The Holy Spirit can't protect you, can't lead you, can't guide you.
27:08You need us to do this.
27:09We're the mediator between God and you.
27:12You have to have us.
27:13You don't need the Holy Spirit.
27:14Come to us.
27:15Give us your money.
27:16That's what Derek Prince did.
27:19I mean, yes, he used the word gospel.
27:21Yes, he used the word Jesus.
27:23But he took the concept that is in the Bible, and he twisted it slightly so that you need
27:28these people.
27:30And because he did this, whether he recanted in the end or not, I have my question whether
27:34he was sincere when he did it, whether he did or not, because he twisted the gospel,
27:41other people built on top of his twisting.
27:44And so now you have people like this commenter is a key person of point.
27:49They do not understand the difference.
27:53And that's the sad part to me.
27:54They think that you have to have your spirit guides who are human beings that are on the
28:00stage.
28:01Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
28:06modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
28:11movements into the new apostolic reformation?
28:14You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
28:21On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
28:27Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and
28:33digital versions of each book.
28:35You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
28:41movements.
28:42If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
28:47button at the top.
28:49And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
28:54to or watching.
28:55On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
29:00You know, when I look at this comment, I would, in some ways, I'm almost of the same persuasion
29:07on elements of this comment.
29:09Because, you know, Derek Prince's, I would agree, reject his demon deliverance info.
29:15That is definitely a bitter pill in the whole thing.
29:19And the challenge is, is when you have some crazy harmful stuff mixed in, you know, what do
29:29you do with that?
29:30You know, you said before, John, the example, if you have a really delicious cake, and you
29:35have some poison in that cake, you know, the cake may taste delicious, but it might kill
29:40you too, right?
29:41But the icing on the cake doesn't, you know, negate the poison.
29:46And so, you know, Derek Prince's ministry, maybe at the end of his life, things ended well
29:51with him.
29:51Um, but for so much of it, he mixed the really problematic stuff in there.
29:58And you never knew what you're going to get.
29:59I mean, when you go this day, what are you going to get?
30:01Are you going to get the, you're going to get the icing?
30:03Are you going to get the poison?
30:04Like, what are you going to get today?
30:06And you never know with Derek Prince.
30:07And the fact of the matter is, in a lot of his sermons, maybe even the majority, they're
30:12mixed together.
30:13He mixes these harmful laterane ideas in with, with, with the gospel, right?
30:19And you end up with something that is, you know, they say a half the truth is still a
30:23lie, right?
30:24And that's what you end up with.
30:27And, you know, the problem with Derek Prince, as we mentioned in our episode, we got a lot
30:33of comments on that one, is that he popularized this stuff, and he did it in such a way like
30:39I'm describing.
30:39He injected the problematic stuff alongside good stuff.
30:43And I would, I would more or less agree with this, you know, listener that he had some
30:49good stuff and some good subjects and some good areas.
30:51I would agree with that.
30:52So did William Branham.
30:55So did Jim Jones.
30:57But, but that doesn't redeem the whole thing, right?
31:00And, and, and, and, and, you know, the person may come and, you know, come to saving faith
31:04in Christ and, and, you know, come to a good end in their life, but that's, that, their
31:10work is tainted.
31:11And Derek Prince is in that category for me.
31:14His work is tainted.
31:15And, and he's kind of, he's, he's a slippery character.
31:20I gotta say.
31:21And you see just how slippery he is the way with all these people act about him, right?
31:25He's a slippery guy.
31:27He did a lot of stuff that wasn't good.
31:28He, he, he, he was around the edges of all of this abuse all of the time.
31:34He was injecting the same concepts, but he never wanted to actually be accountable for
31:39it.
31:39He never was really responsible for it.
31:41He never really took it on head on and did anything about it.
31:44He, he flirted around on stage with William Branham and then pretended that he didn't have
31:49anything to do with them.
31:50And he would always do these weird things that were excellent at making excuses for bad
31:54behavior.
31:56Oh, we can have a good spirit and a bad spirit.
31:58Oh, it was a demon.
31:59Oh, it was your flesh.
32:00Oh, it was, you're not responsible.
32:02It was that demon over there.
32:04You know, he, he had this way of just excusing everything and, and making a whole lot of
32:08problems, honestly, in my opinion.
32:10So anyway, that's Derek Prince.
32:12Um, and we just got a lot of comments on him.
32:15So we're just kind of, uh, responding to a few of those here and there.
32:19Um, here's the next one.
32:22Um, it says, why are NAR churches like Vineyard, Bethel, and Hillsong?
32:28Um, writing most of the worship music that churches throughout the world have been singing
32:32for the past 40 years.
32:34These NAR churches are soft on preaching the word, but they have made great inroads in
32:39influencing many churches through worship music.
32:41So this is a great question, you know, how, how this came to be.
32:45And the answer really is the fusion of the latter rain, um, and their influence into the
32:51early Jesus people movement.
32:53Um, you know, uh, some of the early Jesus people movement, John, were, you know, um, Hollywood
33:02hippie music types, right?
33:03You know, a lot of the people out of the summer of love was the, the great music sensations
33:09back then.
33:10The mamas and the papas and all of that stuff back in the day were out there at the summer
33:15of love.
33:15And so music was a big thing for the Jesus people.
33:18And when the Jesus people came in and, you know, as we kind of mentioned before, there's
33:22a branch that took this ideology and ran with it.
33:25There's another branch that didn't.
33:26Um, but from the beginning, those branches of the Jesus people movement were, um, producing
33:33music that had a broad popular appeal because music in that way, modern music was, was a
33:40big thing for them.
33:41And as you come into, I don't know, necessarily Calvary Chapel, Calvary Chapel had Maranatha,
33:47but then as you get into, um, the vineyard and what happens, you know, there, the music stuff
33:55almost becomes institutionalized.
33:57Um, John Wimber, and this is a, you know, almost, I think we could almost credit John
34:01Wimber and C. Peter Wagner for this stuff.
34:03They had the growth, the church growth model.
34:06And what they did is they, they took their church growth model and they partnered it with
34:12some of this latter rain ideology that they were absorbing in back in those days.
34:17And they found the music was just a great way to hold and attract the people.
34:22Right.
34:23And then, and so they developed music, um, that appealed to their audience and also had
34:28mass appeal.
34:29And that's really where it started.
34:31Um, that's really when all of that worship music stuff in that, I don't know, you almost
34:35call it the, uh, the contemporary Christian gospel music industry kind of all got started
34:42in this.
34:43And, you know, at the same time, they're right there.
34:46They're, they're close to Hollywood.
34:47They've got, they've got music stars and stuff in that area.
34:50There's some of the people are connected to Hollywood.
34:53Wasn't John Wimber was in the righteous brothers.
34:55John Wimber was in the righteous brothers, right?
34:57Lonnie Frisbee was, uh, was a dancer on one of those seventies, uh, music dance shows.
35:03I don't even remember, you know, what we weren't around back then, you know, we were never allowed
35:08to watch nothing like that.
35:09John, we have no idea.
35:10You know, uh, we just don't have concepts of this where, where we come from, John, but
35:14he was on some of these famous dance TV shows and, and quite a few of the, of those people
35:19that were from the dance shows and were from these famous musical bands via the Jesus people
35:26were getting absorbed into this early on.
35:28And instead of, you know, making righteous brothers videos, John Wimber starts indoctrinating
35:32people, joint cult.
35:33And so this is what, this is what happened, ladies and gentlemen, that, and so that's
35:38how all that happened.
35:39I would actually argue that it goes back before this.
35:41It all depends on the entertainment of the era and as far back through history as you want
35:47to go, for instance, the tent revivals, why are there tent revivals?
35:52We had a bunch of people who were out in the country.
35:55Many of them did not have television.
35:57Radio was something that was cutting edge back in the day.
36:01And what was their form of entertainment?
36:03Well, these circuses or these other, um, different entertainers would come through and they would
36:09have a tent.
36:10They would always have a tent to keep the rain out so that they could produce revenue, even
36:14if it's raining.
36:14And people from miles around would come to the entertainer.
36:18Well, when the gospel starts spreading through Pentecostalism and all of the branches that led
36:24to Pentecostalism, it was a form of entertainment.
36:27It was just religious entertainment.
36:28And yes, there are some ministries that were doing this were good.
36:32There were some that were bad.
36:34I think I've mentioned a few times in the videos that I've had, A.B. Simpson, the guy
36:39made a heck of a lot of money and was misusing funds, according to what you read in the newspapers.
36:44He did it all in the same way.
36:46You gather the people around.
36:48They all had music in their ministry.
36:50This is part of it.
36:51But it was one feature of the entertainment.
36:53Now, what C. Peter Wagner and what John Wimber did differently was they capitalized on the
36:59things that were most entertaining.
37:01So if you take the tent models that existed in the early days and people come, they love
37:07the music.
37:08That was a big part of it.
37:09You come because you hear the bluegrass band at the beginning of the concert and leading
37:14to the sermon.
37:15Well, they realize that that's what's attracting the people.
37:20They like that sort of thing.
37:21It's fun.
37:22Well, let's make it the foremost focus of it, and let's diminish the speaking.
37:27Let's diminish the gospel.
37:29So what's happened with the Wimber model, with the C. Peter Wagner model, the gospel gets
37:33somewhat diminished while the entertainment gets raised up for the church growth model.
37:39You can grow your church faster if it's more entertaining.
37:41I would agree with that, and how that their groups, you know, the Bethels, the Hillsongs,
37:48the Marinette, how all of those kind of broke out and became, you know, mainstream is, you
37:55know, by the time you come into the 60s and 70s, right, like the music where you and I come
38:00from, John, well, we're old-fashioned by then.
38:03Like our music of only believe is falling out of favor.
38:07Yeah, that was cutting edge back in the 20s and 30s and stuff, right?
38:10But by the 60s, you know, that's not, you know, the people are, you know, as William
38:15Brown might say, boogie-woogie into the Beatles, right?
38:17I don't know about that stuff, but that's what was going on, right?
38:21And so, you know, all those little Rickies wanted to hear, they wanted to hear the Beatles
38:29type music.
38:30And so they're, they, basically those people know all the modern melodies and how to do
38:34electric guitars and, you know, all of the stuff that the cool crowd liked back then,
38:39right?
38:40And so, yeah, I mean, it just, it worked well.
38:42And yeah, I mean, John Wimber and all that, they knew how to connect to the right recording
38:47studios, how to make all that stuff happen.
38:49And it just took off.
38:52And they actually, I would say they institutionalized it in a way that it hadn't been institutionalized
38:57before.
38:58They actually turned it into an official institutionalized part of their church growth
39:03model.
39:03And for the people who do not know our loaded language of the cult, Rickies refers to, it
39:10directly relates to what we're saying here.
39:13Rickies was evil because William Branham did not like the name Ricky and he would target
39:19the Rickies in the entertainment industry.
39:21And you were not allowed to name your child Ricky in the movement or your child is going
39:27to instantly have a demon because of his name.
39:29Think about the difference between that concept and the gospel of Jesus Christ.
39:34It is two separate things.
39:36They're not the same.
39:37It's a different gospel.
39:38It's the gospel of don't name your kid Ricky or Elvis was the second one.
39:42Don't name your kid this because his name will send him to hell.
39:46That's the difference in the gospel.
39:48And these guys built their ministries off of William Branham and this different gospel.
39:53And little Ricky was also the son of I love Lucy.
39:55And William Branham frequently preached sermons against I love Susie.
39:59Yeah.
40:01Oh boy, John.
40:02What the places we've come from.
40:04All right.
40:05I got the next question here.
40:07It says, after the Toronto episode began, organization vineyard leadership went to Toronto to investigate
40:14some of the things that were being displayed there.
40:16When the organizational leadership confronted the pastor there, the pastor tried to interpret
40:21and explain that the happenings were scriptural heavenly things, but they did not really have
40:26all of its base in scripture.
40:28Leadership rebuked the pastor, but he did not repent and was going to continue with the status quo.
40:34Leadership then removed Toronto from the vineyard organization and separated the two entities
40:38because of the base of the signs and wonders event was quickly becoming something that was not biblical.
40:43And so, you know, for the most part, this is accurate, John.
40:46I mean, I think it was, I think it was your 93, 94, maybe even 95 that this actually happened.
40:53So maybe two to three years before John Wimber died that that separation actually happened.
41:00And yeah, Toronto was actually put out of the vineyard movement after the Toronto blessing.
41:05But, but here's the thing, John, and you see just how I just want to point out to you how if you're in this ideology
41:12and this is your viewpoint, I just want to maybe challenge your thinking here just a little bit.
41:18Okay.
41:19So John Wimber says, holy laughter, that's an okay, you know, manifestation of God, but holy barking is not.
41:27Okay.
41:28Now, but here's the thing, John, is holy barking is not in the Bible, is it?
41:32But neither is holy laughter.
41:33Right.
41:33So, you know, you're, it, it, it, where do you draw the line?
41:37I mean, the slippery slope that you started down was already with, with John Wimber, right?
41:42The slippery slope that led into this stuff started well before Toronto, right?
41:47You're already doing signs and wonders and miracle stuff under John Wimber's leadership
41:51that is not biblical before the Toronto blessing ever happened.
41:55And so when you go into the Toronto blessing and you tell them you're doing stuff that's not biblical,
41:59well, you're just the pot calling the kettle black, right?
42:01You're the pot calling.
42:02So that's, you know, that's kind of my observation.
42:05And yeah, was Toronto blessing way more extreme than what had been going on before?
42:09Sure was.
42:09It sure was.
42:11But was what was going on before already unbiblical and some level of radical and extreme?
42:16Yes.
42:16Right.
42:17And what you have here is not someone trying to pull people back to scripture, somebody
42:23who's saying, well, we want only to be a little radical, not a lot radical, right?
42:27And so it's just, it's just really a debate over how radical that they want it to be.
42:32And unfortunately, this was not the state at which John Wimber, he did start to wake up here,
42:39but it wasn't until I think a couple of years after these initial forays with, it's Andy, Randy, Randy.
42:48I can't think of his last name off the top of my head, but.
42:50Randy Clark.
42:51Randy Clark.
42:52That's the pastor here.
42:53Again, why don't we just say the people's names, right?
42:54Randy Clark is who that this is talking about that they confronted to try and take out a
43:01leadership here, and it didn't work.
43:03There's another question that kind of ties closely into this one.
43:07This person writes, latter rain is not the second wave of Pentecostalism.
43:11The second wave is the charismatic movement that begun in 1959 through 1960.
43:18It hits home for me.
43:20This question hits home for me.
43:22This is the very reason why I do everything that I do.
43:26Many of these ministries, no matter which one you look at in the New Apostolic Reformation
43:31today, if you try to trace their lineage back, you're going to find that somewhere along the
43:36line, they have covered up their history.
43:39And so if you read from a historian who is sympathetic to the movement, they will discount latter rain
43:47and say it was not part of the movement.
43:49They're discounting in an entire era of history that all of these guys trace their roots back
43:55to.
43:56And yes, latter rain was a big part of this, and it was different from the early version
44:00of Pentecostalism.
44:01But because the historians who are sympathetic to the movement try to erase parts of history,
44:08it looks like there are less waves of Pentecostalism than there actually are.
44:13So for me, this is why I do what I do.
44:16It's because these guys are covering up their histories, and depending on which historian
44:19you read, you're going to find some of it is accurate.
44:23Some of them tell the truth.
44:24They're usually not sympathetic to the movement, while others who are sympathetic to the movement
44:29hide their past.
44:30So, John, I have here The Healer Prophet by Doug Weaver.
44:36This is, I would say, the most scholarly work ever wrote on the life of William Branham.
44:45It is not nearly as deep or as in-depth or as detailed or as behind the scenes as the stuff
44:50you and I have published.
44:51But this is, this is the most, I would say, the most credentialed historical person that
44:57has wrote a biography on William Branham right here, okay?
45:00And the introduction to this book is authored by David Edwin Harrell, who wrote the All Things
45:07Are Possible history of the charismatic movement, I believe, during the 1980s.
45:12And, so, these are the most scholarly people who have ever wrote on this topic, okay?
45:21I just want to read a line out of here.
45:25It says,
45:26Branham's legacy is alive and well.
45:30Because of his role as a divine healer turned prophet, the major emphasis of his thematic
45:35biography, Branham has been called the principal architect of restorationist thought.
45:41For new charismatics, popular restoration prophets Bill Hammond and Paul Kane, for example, cite
45:48Branham's significant influence upon their ministries.
45:51These men, among others, have spread Branham's legacy into charismatic groups like the Kansas
45:56City Prophets and the Vineyard Fellowship.
45:59The Toronto Blessing and the Brownsville Revivals that have attracted national attention for their
46:04controversial emotional practices include a focus on apostles and prophets that find their
46:11roots in Branham's teachings, okay?
46:15John, it's not you and I saying these things, okay?
46:18This man wrote this stuff while we were still brainwashed cult followers in a message, John.
46:24Ladies and gentlemen, we're not making this stuff up.
46:26You can go and you can read these same books.
46:28You can get these same sources.
46:29And you read through here.
46:31This book will tell you, quote,
46:32William Branham was the leading figure of the second wave of Pentecostalism.
46:37And you're correct.
46:37It did kick off among charismatics.
46:40But the charismatics who kicked it off were the latter reign and deliverance movement people
46:45from the first at the end of the first wave.
46:48And William Branham was the leading figure in the second wave at the start of it.
46:53All right.
46:54It's just, it's what happened, right?
46:56And to kind of pretend like that's not what happened is just, I don't know, it's dishonest,
47:02John.
47:02It's just dishonest.
47:03This is awful.
47:04This is insidious when people cover up their histories and past.
47:07And that's honestly, like I said, this is why I do what I do.
47:11And if you don't understand that that history exists, then you also don't understand why John
47:17Wimber is so important to the New Apostolic Reformation's formation.
47:21There is a transition point there that you have to catch.
47:24But if you've erased that history, there's no way that you can catch it, which is why
47:28these guys erased their past.
47:30All right, John.
47:31I got one last question I think we'll try and do.
47:33And maybe I can just do a little show and tell when I answer this one.
47:36It says, so this question is, I've searched for the letters by John Wimber you referenced,
47:41but have been unable to find them online.
47:43Is there a link you could provide to access them or some other way I could read them?
47:47Thanks.
47:47Well, you can get the John Wimber's pastoral letters.
47:52This was on Amazon is where I got it, but I think Vineyard still sells it in their bookshop.
47:56So Amazon, I think it was $10, I think, for this.
48:00And what you'll find in here, my understanding of what this book is, kind of as you read the
48:05preface and stuff, there was some sort of a recurring newsletter type thing that went
48:11around the Vineyard churches.
48:12And from time to time, John Wimber would write a column in it.
48:17Well, the first half or first two thirds of this book is what this is.
48:21It's like a compilation of his pastoral letters in this newsletter thing that would go out.
48:26But as you get to the maybe the middle and the second last third of the book, it switches
48:33over really to John Wimber confronting the growing craziness in the Vineyard movement around
48:40fivefold ministry and around Signs, Wonders, Miracles stuff.
48:44And so it just progresses.
48:47And towards the end, my understanding, again, is these were published in some sort of a newsletter
48:55right around that time of his death.
48:57And those original letters that were in the newsletter, and I had actually went and looked
49:04up one of those, specifically the one about fivefold ministry.
49:07They were all in the original newsletter as a co-author, right?
49:12There was John Wimber and another gentleman, I believe it's the same man who edited this
49:18book, Derek Morphew, I think.
49:21They're the ones who he's the one who's also, I think, listed as a co-author on the letters.
49:27I'd want to go back and double check that.
49:28But but the articles that were published right around the time of his death in those newsletters
49:32were co-authored by another gentleman.
49:36And so anyways, that's what you have here.
49:38And so I do think it's important to note that although these are presented as John Wimber's
49:42letters, at the very end of this, if you went back to the original articles, they were actually
49:48co-authored by another minister in Vineyard.
49:51And so that is part of what is behind my suspicion or wonder is how much of these last letters
49:55did John Wimber actually write himself and how much was wrote by the co-author.
49:59I apologize for not, you know, digging into that a little bit deeper, but that's just
50:05my takeaway.
50:07But anyways, here's the book, John Wimber's letters, you know, feel free to read it, you
50:10know, see what you think for yourself, right?
50:11Don't don't believe something just because I told you.
50:14Let me also, John, just run through all of the books that I read, you know, as I prepared
50:21for those NAR episodes, because I don't just dive into things.
50:25I know people maybe think I just speak off the top of my head, but I just want to walk
50:28through all the books that I went through.
50:30And besides that, I mean, just all the other knowledge that we've obtained over the years.
50:33I read Chuck Smith's official autobiography, John.
50:37I read Counterfeit Reformation or Counterfeit Revival by Hank Hangraff.
50:41This is a real good book on all this stuff.
50:44New Charismatics by Michael Moriarty, which I've reported, you know, I've pointed people
50:48to this one a lot.
50:48This is probably the work I would point people to for understanding the history of this ideology.
50:54I read The Jesus People Movement by Richard Bustrand.
50:58This was recommended to us by one of our listeners, John.
51:02Very good book, and I appreciate, I appreciate, I would say his name, but I don't want him to
51:06get harassed.
51:06I really appreciate your recommendation on this book and all of the kind comments that
51:10you sent us, you know, over the years, you know, pointing things out to us.
51:16Thank you so much for that.
51:17That's very much appreciated.
51:19I read Prophetic Integrity by R.T.
51:21Kendall, okay?
51:23Don't necessarily recommend this one, but I did read it.
51:28Churches That Abuse, Ronald Enroth.
51:31What do you think this is?
51:32Branches of the Latter Rain Movement and the Shepherding Movement.
51:34All right.
51:35Damaged Disciples, The Casualties of Authoritarian Churches and the Shepherding Movement.
51:42Obviously about the Shepherding Movement.
51:46The Shepherding Movement by David Moore.
51:49This is also a pretty good book I recommended, John.
51:51I mean, if you want to get some information on this.
51:53And last of all, John, the story of Charles Fuller.
51:57And this is, again, if people aren't familiar, John Wimber and C. Peter Wagner both attended
52:05Fuller Theological Seminary together.
52:07There's so much more I could say, John, you know, than what has been said.
52:11But I just want you to know, I did take time to actually look into all of this stuff before
52:16we did these episodes.
52:17And I have tried to be super cautious, as I know how to, with these things.
52:22This is not, my main interest, as I've said, as we did all those episodes on the Narjohn,
52:26is I just want to know where the other places the Latter Rain ideology went so I can make sure
52:31I steer clear of those places.
52:33That is the main impetus and interest in me looking into all of that stuff, not to make
52:39people look bad.
52:40I just want to steer clear of the Latter Rain ideology, because it is a cult factory.
52:46And that has ultimately been my objective in looking at these New Apostolic Reformation
52:51and these other branches of the Latter Rain movement.
52:54And there's one final question that I'll answer before we end this, but it's a question that
53:00I get from time to time, all throughout the series that we did here.
53:04People asked, why are you doing this?
53:06Are you not a Christian?
53:07And usually that comes from a person who hasn't listened to the podcast and hasn't heard any
53:12of the personal statements that I have made about my personal life.
53:16But what they're missing is the fact that it isn't that I'm against the ministries.
53:22It isn't that I'm targeting some person and I'm saying this like John Wember.
53:26It isn't that I'm saying John Wember is evil.
53:28It's that the history has been erased and somebody needs to step up and create the accurate portrayal
53:36of history that has been undocumented.
53:38I focus on the very critical because that's usually the parts that has been erased.
53:43In some cases, there are some favorable things that aren't really commonly known and I include
53:49those, but for the most part, I want to know why they have covered up their critical history.
53:54What does it lead to if you take that away from history?
53:59In other words, if you take away the latter rain movement, well, it takes away a whole wave
54:04of Pentecostalism that these guys are trying to deny existed.
54:08That whole wave, that's an entire era of time.
54:11How can you remove this?
54:12It's like, you know, they're trying today in the government, they're trying to go back
54:18and erase the history of slavery.
54:20This is a horrific thing, in my opinion, because they're trying to erase an era of time that
54:26very bad things happened and we need to document these things so that we don't make the same
54:31mistakes.
54:32But the idea, the modern idea is, well, if we erase our history, we can pretend that it
54:37never happened.
54:38So to those people who are asking this, it isn't that I'm against the people.
54:43I could care less if John Wimber was a good guy or a bad guy.
54:47It's irrelevant to why I do it.
54:49I just want to know why the history has been erased and I want to put it out there so that
54:53people can learn from the mistakes and hopefully never make them again.
54:57But thank you for doing this.
55:00We've got, I don't know how many hundreds of other questions we could get into, but we're
55:04running out of time.
55:05So I think we'll end it here.
55:07And thank you, Charles.
55:08Yeah, I've enjoyed doing this, John.
55:10Yeah, we've got so many more questions here we could go through, comments that we had
55:13pulled out.
55:13But I think we definitely hit the highlights.
55:15So I think we'll be pausing here for a while.
55:18I know you've got some other great podcast guests coming up that you're going to be doing
55:23some really interesting episodes with.
55:24I look forward to watching.
55:26And hey, who knows what the future holds, John?
55:28Maybe we'll record some more episodes together in the future.
55:31But for now, I've got a couple other projects I have to tackle for a while.
55:35And yeah, so thanks for doing this with me, too.
55:38I've appreciated it and I've enjoyed it.
55:39Well, it's been fun.
55:40Thank you so much.
55:42If you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
55:45You can find us at william-branham.org and christiangospelchurch.org.
55:50For more about the history of William Branham and the healing revivals, you can read Come
55:53Out of Her, My People.
55:55And for more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized
55:59Religion, From Christian Identity to the NAR, both available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
56:29And for more about the history of William Branham, you can read Weaponized
56:59and learn about the history of William Branham.
57:05So one.
57:08Wall showing.
57:10certificates.
57:12And the history of W
57:17the explicar.
57:19And the history of William Branham, you can read Weaponized
Be the first to comment