- 16 hours ago
Christine joins John to share her journey through a Jesus movement commune called Daystar Ministries—not to be confused with the media company of the same name. She describes growing up in an intense spiritual environment rooted in discipleship schools, communal living, and deliverance ministry practices that often veered into dangerous territory. The community, while birthed with good intentions, dealt with mental health crises using spiritual warfare methods rather than professional therapy, leading to traumatic and unsafe conditions for both adults and children. Christine unpacks how children were treated as spiritual warriors, used as symbols of family ministry, and often subjected to exorcisms or dangerous counseling by untrained adults. She reflects on the psychological consequences of these experiences, including the normalization of trauma, complex PTSD, and systemic authoritarianism.
The conversation deepens as Christine and John explore the deliverance movement’s psychological fallout—highlighting how trauma was mislabeled as demonic possession, how legitimate mental health conditions were exacerbated, and how cultic systems discouraged seeking real therapy. They discuss the toxic blend of spiritual abuse, authoritarian control, and the attraction of narcissistic or mentally unstable leaders to such groups. Christine introduces the concept of post-traumatic growth, encourages grace in the healing process, and emphasizes that recovery isn’t linear. The episode ends with an agreement to continue the conversation in future sessions, particularly regarding the health effects of trauma.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Christine’s background and Dayar Ministries explained
02:04 Commune life: faith, support raising, and survival
03:40 Discipleship schools and untrained “counselors”
05:15 Deliverance sessions and exorcism practices
07:55 Transition to YWAM and early exposure to Mike Bickle & MorningStar
09:17 Christine’s counseling studies and perspective on deliverance
12:05 Ritualized deliverance and its psychological effects
16:29 Playing “Deliverance” as children
17:22 Trauma, therapy, and recognizing PTSD
20:11 From deliverance to theophostic/transformational prayer ministries
21:33 Complex PTSD in cult survivors
23:42 The addictive cycle of release and ritual
26:36 How unsafe practices compounded trauma
30:04 Childhood in warfare mode and authoritarianism
34:01 Specialness, narcissism, and prophetic elitism
38:02 Gandalf or the Ring: coping strategies in cult childhoods
42:08 Predators, narcissists, and authoritarian groups
44:43 Mental illness, genetics, and cult environments
48:14 Schizotypal personalities, bipolar disorder, OCD in these settings
51:09 The grief of cult kids and post-traumatic growth
55:19 Healing is not linear—grace for survivors
57:14 Post-traumatic growth and defining your own path
59:45 Letting go of urgency after leaving high-control groups
1:02:26 Closing thoughts and fut
The conversation deepens as Christine and John explore the deliverance movement’s psychological fallout—highlighting how trauma was mislabeled as demonic possession, how legitimate mental health conditions were exacerbated, and how cultic systems discouraged seeking real therapy. They discuss the toxic blend of spiritual abuse, authoritarian control, and the attraction of narcissistic or mentally unstable leaders to such groups. Christine introduces the concept of post-traumatic growth, encourages grace in the healing process, and emphasizes that recovery isn’t linear. The episode ends with an agreement to continue the conversation in future sessions, particularly regarding the health effects of trauma.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Christine’s background and Dayar Ministries explained
02:04 Commune life: faith, support raising, and survival
03:40 Discipleship schools and untrained “counselors”
05:15 Deliverance sessions and exorcism practices
07:55 Transition to YWAM and early exposure to Mike Bickle & MorningStar
09:17 Christine’s counseling studies and perspective on deliverance
12:05 Ritualized deliverance and its psychological effects
16:29 Playing “Deliverance” as children
17:22 Trauma, therapy, and recognizing PTSD
20:11 From deliverance to theophostic/transformational prayer ministries
21:33 Complex PTSD in cult survivors
23:42 The addictive cycle of release and ritual
26:36 How unsafe practices compounded trauma
30:04 Childhood in warfare mode and authoritarianism
34:01 Specialness, narcissism, and prophetic elitism
38:02 Gandalf or the Ring: coping strategies in cult childhoods
42:08 Predators, narcissists, and authoritarian groups
44:43 Mental illness, genetics, and cult environments
48:14 Schizotypal personalities, bipolar disorder, OCD in these settings
51:09 The grief of cult kids and post-traumatic growth
55:19 Healing is not linear—grace for survivors
57:14 Post-traumatic growth and defining your own path
59:45 Letting go of urgency after leaving high-control groups
1:02:26 Closing thoughts and fut
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LearningTranscript
00:00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:43And with me, I have my special guest, Christine Orrick, former member of Daystar Ministries, but not that one.
00:00:51So I'll let you explain that part.
00:00:53But thank you for coming on, Christine.
00:00:54And maybe you could begin to tell everybody a little bit about yourself, but also this Daystar Ministries.
00:01:01Absolutely.
00:01:02Thank you, John.
00:01:02Thanks for having me here and giving me the chance to speak.
00:01:07Also, thank you for giving me a chance to speak as a Gen Xer.
00:01:10I sometimes don't hear my generation as much on these types of forums, I think, because we are often in the middle zone of life with our own kids and also our own parents going through things.
00:01:27So I appreciate the chance.
00:01:32Okay, I want to give you just a little bit of my background and how I came to where I am today.
00:01:40I was born into a Jesus Movement commune called Daystar Ministries, and I'll explain that this is not the media company of Daystar, especially the one that everybody sees now going through a lot of issues with their leadership.
00:02:00But this was a specific spinoff of the Jesus Movement.
00:02:07So a lot of people who were coming out of the hippie movement of the early 70s, late 60s, formed communes like hippie communes, except they were evangelical Christian and also based in, I'd say, signs and wonders, spiritual warfare, deliverance ministries, all the things that were sort of the fringe of evangelicalism, even at the time.
00:02:37So Daystar Ministries had several communes around the U.S., and we all live together as families and singles.
00:02:46We, as staff, raised support for our money, so nobody took a salary.
00:02:53We spent a lot of time, at least the parents did, writing letters, maybe talking to churches, asking people for money for support to continue this ministry.
00:03:05So it was pretty precarious at times for some of us to pay bills, even sometimes eat good food.
00:03:14All of it was what's considered faith-based in that we relied on our faith for God to provide everything that we owned, every salary, every need for every child.
00:03:27Within Daystar, there were a couple of themes.
00:03:34I would say one of two main themes.
00:03:38The first one was discipleship schools, discipleship formation, and people would come for sort of a longer Bible school and community living experience.
00:03:50And this way, they could kind of join in a commune, join the staff.
00:03:54Everybody did work duties, cooking, cleaning, gardening, logging, maybe where I lived at some point, hunting even, and had this experience of classroom time, prayer time, and growing together.
00:04:12The second facet of Daystar was people coming with very florid or interesting severe mental health issues, addictions, trauma, coming to live at our communes with our staff and families for prayer and counseling ministries.
00:04:34So for those of us who grew up in it, our parents were considered counselors or prayer ministers, but with zero training in therapy or psychology, but still had the label counselor.
00:04:50So we would take in people who sometimes were actually fairly dangerous or fairly, like I said, florid or far along in a mental health capacity that wasn't coherent or safe always, or maybe coming through an addiction.
00:05:13And the staff would do a lot of prayer and counseling with them.
00:05:17Prayer and counseling was both the comforting prayer and blessing, as well as deliverance ministry, which included exorcisms and helping rid people of root cause issues.
00:05:33So you can only imagine the melee that was Daystar Ministries and the combination of people living there.
00:05:42Some really right, young, hopeful staff members who themselves sometimes came from a lot of trauma ministering to other very traumatized people in the middle of a lot of really difficult things.
00:05:59And then us as children, we're sort of expected to be a part of the family ministry where we sort of, how can I put this, be an example of the love of God, be an example of a safe and a healthy family for people coming on the base or the commune, so that they could see this is what a godly family looks like.
00:06:24This is what godly children and parents who love their children looks like.
00:06:29Consequently, though, it exposed a lot of us as children to some really dangerous and bizarre things.
00:06:36So not only some of the beliefs in the theology were really harmful for a lot of us, but we were also exposed to and put in positions that were actually dangerous, specifically with the way that the communes were set up.
00:06:53So after some time in Daystar, different communes and bases, my father started a church and a ministry kind of at the same time, and then he transitioned in and out of different ministries and churches.
00:07:12We moved again, and by this time, Daystar had somewhat shut down, and some of it had become YWAM, or Youth with a Mission.
00:07:22And Youth with a Mission, as listeners have heard, and John, you've heard, is missions-focused, youth-focused.
00:07:31And so a lot of the Jesus movement theology and Daystar themes transferred to Youth with a Mission.
00:07:41And so, again, there were other bases and other groups, like the Jesus people, who ran similar things.
00:07:49So, yeah, that's the start of it.
00:07:52And as an adult, I left and went into YWAM, and that's where I was exposed to the very beginnings of Mike Bickle and IHOP,
00:08:04and worked on the base near Floyd McClung, who started All Nations with Mike Bickle, and had family then, separate from me, moved to North Carolina and worked with Morningstar with Rick Joyner.
00:08:23So I have a little bit of cross over there with Morningstar, myself, with my family.
00:08:29I eventually went to Denver Seminary.
00:08:32Oh, let's add in the middle of all of this.
00:08:35I went to Asbury College back then.
00:08:38It's Asbury University now.
00:08:40Went through revival at that time that came to Asbury.
00:08:47Also, some revival things with YWAM, and then ended up, as my family shifted over with Morningstar, I ended up in Denver Seminary, and I got my degree in clinical counseling.
00:09:03Became a therapist for a while and worked in different capacities, but have been out of the field for a while just due to health and rest reasons.
00:09:13So that's the long, short summary.
00:09:16Darrell Bock Well, that's a crazy wild ride, and ironically, it's the exact personality I've been wanting to have on to the podcast to talk about Deliverance Ministries.
00:09:27The movement that you're talking about, this Daystar Ministries, there's not a lot out there on the Internet about it.
00:09:33It is, you know, it seems to be a really small thing that didn't last very long, but there is some mention of it, and I don't know what you can believe and what you can't with what you find on the Internet,
00:09:45but it seems that Bob DeWay was part of this movement, and he is, for people who don't know who Bob DeWay is, he's a Christian theologian, very deep into the Reformed theology.
00:09:57But he considered it to be a very dangerous movement because of the way in which they handled the deliverance, the spiritualism, and what he would – I guess he would consider it to be occult practices that were being used in the deliverance ministries.
00:10:15I have actually wanted to have somebody who was familiar with psychology or therapy to talk through that a bit because, in my opinion, DeWay is absolutely correct.
00:10:28If you take a person who is struggling with mental health issues and tell them that there's this thing, this evil thing that you cannot see, but you have to believe is there because I say it's there,
00:10:39and this thing can destroy your life if we don't get it out of you, they're going to go down pathways that they're, quite frankly, their brains can't handle because they're suffering with mental health issues.
00:10:51So it takes a problem that pre-exists, and it makes it actually worse.
00:10:56Well, when it makes it worse, they use that to their advantage, which I see – I have no other name or word for this than scoundrels.
00:11:04If you take a person who's suffering with mental health issues, you are aggravating those mental health issues, so you're getting them into the cycle.
00:11:12And anybody who is familiar with mental health, when you get in that cycle, it's very dangerous, very harmful.
00:11:18And then what happens is in the explosion in the aftermath of this, they say this person has a demon,
00:11:26and people physically see what's happening with the event that they have, in fact, caused in the person.
00:11:33So everybody in the audience goes, oh, wow, this is a demon.
00:11:36Look, I can see it manifesting itself in this person.
00:11:40But they don't know the background that literally the guy on stage has caused this.
00:11:45So I'm glad to have you on to talk through that.
00:11:47Maybe we could at some point go deeper with that.
00:11:50But what are your thoughts on all of that?
00:11:53Absolutely.
00:11:53I have so much to say on this.
00:11:57And I think at some point I may write a book or something around my story to some extent.
00:12:09But regarding the deliverance movement and how it started and then now what it's become,
00:12:17it's a really fascinating story.
00:12:19I didn't know Bob DeWay.
00:12:22Of course, I knew his name.
00:12:24Of course, the adults knew him.
00:12:26And we crossed over in our bases and kids and everything.
00:12:31Jack Winter was another big name there.
00:12:36And all the other Jesus movement big names were common household names or spoke
00:12:41or interacted with us with retreats and different things.
00:12:46Um, so, yeah, it was really born out of, I think, probably in the very beginning,
00:12:54at least the people with good intent, wanting to bring healing to other people.
00:13:01So the huge amount of trauma, addiction, mental, mental illness was seen as the root of demonic.
00:13:10So the way to get go after the root was exorcism and deliverance.
00:13:17And, um, the way that deliverance worked is, um, everybody gathers around somebody, uh, sitting
00:13:24in a chair usually.
00:13:25So they're sitting very vulnerable in the center, usually with, um, usually men gathered around them.
00:13:35So this was a particularly interesting dynamic for women who were traumatized to have a lot
00:13:40of men, uh, surrounding them with their hands on them, um, begin to rebuke and cast out a demon.
00:13:51And this would be after somebody had explained their history or their story and, uh, they would
00:13:57begin to pray and sometimes have a quote, prophetic word, pray, and, um, their voices would rise.
00:14:08Hands might press in a little further person's kind of sitting in the middle or in the chair
00:14:13and, uh, pretty soon they would start to manifest.
00:14:17And I say that in quotes, but, um, show a physical, um, example of either the demon speaking or them
00:14:26releasing the demonic.
00:14:27So that could be shouting or whimpering.
00:14:31It could be screaming, making animal noises, throwing up, um, cursing all of the things that
00:14:40you may see on movies, which is fascinating.
00:14:42Um, and, um, uh, over time of the prayers or the prayer warriors or deliverers, um, would
00:14:52continue the shouting and the exercising.
00:14:56And pretty soon that person would calm down, like their nervous system would settle, they'd
00:15:03become quieter.
00:15:04They would feel better.
00:15:06However, they'd proclaim they were free from whatever root cause, um, came into the story
00:15:13here.
00:15:14As a side note, one of my very favorite games as a child with my commune cohorts was playing
00:15:22deliverance.
00:15:23So we would, my husband has me tell this story at parties.
00:15:28He's like, tell them about your childhood.
00:15:30So it's not funny, but it is for those of us who come from it, you understand, uh, the
00:15:37dark humor here.
00:15:39Um, at age four, we would take turns being the chair person, the person sitting in the
00:15:46chair and the rest of us would gather around them, put our hands on them and then put the
00:15:51other hand up and start, uh, speaking in tongues in our little voices.
00:15:56Like should have bought a Honda, should have bought a, and then pretty soon, pretty soon
00:16:03the chair person would start screaming, like build the screams to pitch.
00:16:11And as a, as children, we always wanted to be the chair person because it was a very fun
00:16:17thing to be able to scream.
00:16:19Um, while everybody was our, you know, playmates were pretend praying for us.
00:16:25So that's a side note of my childhood.
00:16:27Um, that was a favorite game.
00:16:29Um, it's wild, isn't it?
00:16:33Like cult kids.
00:16:34Yeah, it's crazy.
00:16:35And, and so you have to also wonder, there are people with mental health issues doing this.
00:16:39Well, there may have also been some people who rehearsed it.
00:16:43A hundred percent.
00:16:45Um, that ran the gamut for people, I think, who were playing along with us as, um, the
00:16:52pray ease.
00:16:53And then the ministers often had their own trauma, mental health, authoritarianism, um,
00:17:02all sorts of issues with zero psychology background, zero understanding of how trauma
00:17:08works, um, zero understanding maybe of how addiction works.
00:17:14And so what a mess.
00:17:16It was absolutely wild.
00:17:20Yeah.
00:17:20And the trauma is a word I want to focus on in this a bit too, because everything you're
00:17:25saying.
00:17:25So psychology fascinates me.
00:17:27If I had my life to do over, I would probably have become a psychologist, not an IT guy.
00:17:31But I, I have studied the trauma to no extent because I went through severe trauma in the
00:17:39moments leading up to the years leading up to me escaping and, um, watching the trauma
00:17:45on other people as I have helped them to escape.
00:17:48It's really odd because there are before and after photographs of the people.
00:17:53And we, in the support groups, there was this one comment thread where it must've had two
00:17:58or 300 people going back and forth about, here's what I used to look like.
00:18:02Here's what I look now.
00:18:03I look younger now.
00:18:04How do I look younger?
00:18:05And trauma does all kinds of things bad to the body, but the aging of trauma is unbelievable.
00:18:13It causes people to look physically older.
00:18:15And then after, after you release that trauma, you get therapy, you get help, or you simply
00:18:21overcome it through time.
00:18:23You start to reverse age, which is really weird too.
00:18:26But the most odd thing about it for me was while I was in the trauma, in the cult mindset,
00:18:32I had no idea I was under trauma.
00:18:34It wasn't until after I left.
00:18:37And then there's this explosion that happens that I, I probably needed a lot more therapy
00:18:42than I got whenever I first left because suddenly now I'm coming to terms with the fact that
00:18:48I am traumatized.
00:18:49I have been under spiritual abuse.
00:18:51I have had all of these things happen to me and I'm starting to understand now I also have PTSD from it.
00:18:57So all of this is overwhelming.
00:18:59It hits you.
00:19:00The trauma is overwhelming and finding help.
00:19:04I, in fact, I just had a email exchange with a guy today who needs to get into therapy.
00:19:10So I was talking through that with him, finding the help that you need, getting a therapist
00:19:15when you need it, and overcoming that trauma is all part of the healing process.
00:19:20However, the last thing I'll say is while you're in this deliverance type movement,
00:19:25they will teach you that even the therapists are demons.
00:19:29So you can't go to the therapist because you might lose the spirit that you have in you or something
00:19:34like this.
00:19:34So what are your thoughts on that?
00:19:37Yeah, it did a tremendous amount of damage in that it kept people from maybe addressing
00:19:43what was really wrong and kept them in a cycle.
00:19:48And I think people who got very, very deep into this, it was almost like that became the
00:19:57addiction also.
00:19:58Like, okay, what's the next demonic thing?
00:20:01What's the next root thing, as opposed to looking psychologically what was going on and finding
00:20:07a variety of help.
00:20:09Interestingly, that type of ministry turned into what's called the apostic ministry, prayer
00:20:17ministry.
00:20:18I don't know if you've read up on that.
00:20:20And then it turned into, I think the apostic turned into transformational prayer ministry.
00:20:26So that's what they call this now.
00:20:27Um, so people who are maybe a little more trained in psychology, not necessarily therapists,
00:20:36um, but who work with a specific protocol.
00:20:41Um, and in fact, back in the day, I was also trained with a Christian, um, kind of energy
00:20:48protocol with some of these elements too.
00:20:51And I left the whole thing.
00:20:52I was like, oh, no, this is too much like my childhood, but it kept people, um, either
00:20:59not healed or it kept them in a cycle where they were continually, um, looking for the
00:21:06next demonic thing.
00:21:07And the profound discouragement of saying, I thought I had this moment or this breakthrough.
00:21:14And then all of a sudden the trauma symptoms are back or the mental health issue is back,
00:21:19um, is pretty demoralizing for people, um, especially people with more severe issues.
00:21:28And this is all separate from those of us raised in it.
00:21:32Those of us raised in it.
00:21:33A lot of us could be diagnosed with complex PTSD, CPTSD, which is more than one or two or a
00:21:44big trauma.
00:21:45It's a constant feeling of fear, um, where we are trying to survive a setting.
00:21:54So our healing may look a little bit different from somebody, let's say who goes through a
00:21:59tornado or, you know, one assault, um, our healing is a different thing.
00:22:07Interestingly, in the deliverance movement, there were always a few people who let's say
00:22:13their, um, their trauma or their mental health issues weren't that huge or significant.
00:22:19They could experience in this prayer moment, a sort of a release, like a, um, physical,
00:22:29psychological, spiritual release, I guess you could say, and have the ability to walk away
00:22:35feeling somewhat changed and somewhat more solid.
00:22:41And I do, um, I do want to say that there were people like that who walked away and said,
00:22:46I absolutely, there's a before and after this ministry, but I also don't believe that they
00:22:54had some of the complexity of mental health and trauma that everybody else walking through
00:22:59that had, if that makes sense.
00:23:01It does.
00:23:02I've thought through that.
00:23:03Like, like I said, psychology fascinates me.
00:23:05That's why I've hijacked your story.
00:23:07But I have, I have, um, I've studied into this because I have been in situations where there,
00:23:14we didn't call it deliverance, but that's exactly what they were doing.
00:23:18There have been places where I have seen people who had issues, real issues, and then they
00:23:24would walk away better from those issues.
00:23:26And I've always wondered after leaving, what was this?
00:23:29Because if you really look at the God that was being served in the message, it's not the
00:23:34same as the God of the Bible.
00:23:36So was this a demon?
00:23:38Was, what was this?
00:23:39And I have come to terms with the fact that most of the stage act was just simply that
00:23:45it was stage act.
00:23:46There was no angel nor demon that was involved, but the people who went, who found the release,
00:23:52there is a psychological effect.
00:23:55And I, I'm not very, very good at remembering the names of these things, but there's a term
00:24:00for it.
00:24:00Whenever a person finds something that they can focus all of their thoughts and mind into,
00:24:06and then find a release just simply by accepting the fact that this is a condition that I have.
00:24:13I'm getting, I'm giving this condition to whatever is the cause of my release.
00:24:18And that could be a variety of things.
00:24:20It could be painting.
00:24:21It could be music.
00:24:22It could be, you know, depending on the severity of their trauma, they could find something that
00:24:27they can displace it.
00:24:30Basically they're displacing it and it isn't a permanent displacement, but it gives them a feeling
00:24:38that something has happened.
00:24:39And so if you're in a spiritual setting, you think, oh my gosh, I've been healed.
00:24:44And you walk away, you still kind of have it, but you, you remember that thought, that feeling
00:24:49that you had whenever this happened.
00:24:51And so you go back for more and it becomes like an addiction to this, this release.
00:24:57Yeah, I think that's absolutely a path that a lot of people go down.
00:25:02But there are instances where, like I said, it didn't even have to be, even now people doing
00:25:09rituals or art or music, there's a million ways to heal.
00:25:14There's a million ways to shift out of certain traumatic zones where people can create, I should
00:25:24say the human mind is amazing.
00:25:27The human mind is absolutely amazing, create a setting where their nervous systems and their
00:25:34neurons may reconnect in a certain new way in that moment for whatever that ritual or artistic
00:25:42thing is.
00:25:42And they do have some lasting change.
00:25:45Um, this, because we're healed from trauma in a million ways.
00:25:49It's not just therapy or groups or a mill, a million ways to heal.
00:25:55But this particular deliverance ministry was so, so dangerous because there was no distinction
00:26:04between people's level of trauma.
00:26:06Um, there was no accounting for not only maybe it didn't work, but that it caused more complexity
00:26:15of trauma.
00:26:17So now on top of somebody not being healed from something, they had the fear of knowing
00:26:25they had a demon or the fear of knowing a lot of people were going to gather around them
00:26:31and touch them and yell.
00:26:32Um, and so it, it complexified the trauma on top of not being better.
00:26:39And so that's something that's really, really been heartbreaking to see with people.
00:26:43Um, when I was counseling in my later adult years and people came to me from YWAM and different
00:26:51places and, um, just for, for you and your listeners too, I have left the church system
00:26:58and I, in order to find my own healing, I've needed to be outside of a system.
00:27:04So we probably have a little bit different theology in that regard.
00:27:08Um, but, um, I was watching people come to me from similar things that I was raised in
00:27:15and their attempts to find healing in the system had complexified their original trauma.
00:27:24And this just broke my heart because I can say this for you, John, and for me too.
00:27:30Every time we were fearful as children, we were put in a double, what's, what's called a double
00:27:37bind.
00:27:37Like if you experience fear or bad things, it's usually from the enemy.
00:27:44It wasn't considered trauma.
00:27:46You didn't get help from it.
00:27:47So you were put in a double bind every time you showed trauma.
00:27:51And this is what deliverance does in many cases for people and double binds are what
00:27:57cause insanity.
00:27:59They're what causes complex trauma, um, the continuation of trauma.
00:28:05So, you know, that feeling well, um, as do I.
00:28:09Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern
00:28:14Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter rain, charismatic and other fringe movements
00:28:20into the new apostolic reformation?
00:28:22You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:28:27william-branham.org.
00:28:29On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
00:28:35Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links to the paper, audio, and
00:28:41digital versions of each book.
00:28:44You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
00:28:49movements.
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00:29:02to or watching.
00:29:03On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:29:08Well, like I said, I'm very fascinated by psychology and all of the effects.
00:29:13Combine that with the fascination that I have of the deliverance movement, because in
00:29:18the deliverance movement, it is escalating these things.
00:29:21And people really don't understand how dangerous that is until they get involved with it.
00:29:25So anyway, I definitely hijacked your story.
00:29:29So let's shift focus back to that story.
00:29:32And I know the listeners don't want to hear me.
00:29:34They want to hear you.
00:29:35So let's continue with the story.
00:29:37So as a child watching this growing up, and I think I'm repeating a lot of themes that
00:29:44maybe some other guests have said, I think Jed Hartley, Jedediah Hartley, somebody I can
00:29:50relate to a lot because my father considered himself a prophet of, in some ways, he still
00:29:59does, I think.
00:30:00He didn't get the notoriety that some other prophets get.
00:30:04So as a child watching this, it was very fearful and bizarre.
00:30:14And we were required as children to be warriors.
00:30:19And we were required as children to maintain a level of acting like and living like we were
00:30:28in a war.
00:30:29This is traumatizing to children.
00:30:31So everything was spiritual warfare, every bad dream, every night, trauma nightmare, every
00:30:38anxiety, which a ton of us have been diagnosed with anxiety and trauma after leaving all of
00:30:45this pretty normal.
00:30:48And we were left as children to be warriors from a very small age.
00:30:54And none of us had this capacity.
00:30:56We were children.
00:30:58We needed to feel really safe.
00:31:00And I think at the heart of what we grew up in, it didn't feel safe at all.
00:31:05And like I said, we were put into double binds.
00:31:08Like, well, did you experience fear or anxiety?
00:31:11Well, that's an attack from the enemy.
00:31:14So where do I go with that?
00:31:16Well, if your life was going very well and things were very good, this is especially with
00:31:22the adults, you may have heard this in your group too, John, is if everything was going
00:31:28too well, it meant that Satan's eye was not on you.
00:31:34So you weren't a good enough Christian to receive the harassment from the enemy, so to speak.
00:31:40So it's like the eye of Sauron did not come upon you.
00:31:45Absolutely.
00:31:46You know?
00:31:48And if you didn't have the eye of Sauron on you, you weren't a good enough warrior.
00:31:52And so as a really sensitive child who was really perceptive, I think that's probably
00:32:02my, just the gifting I have, not because I'm better at anything.
00:32:08It's just probably the wiring.
00:32:09I was a watcher and I was watching and watching and I'm like, oh my God, like this is, I don't
00:32:15know if I can do this, this is too much, but requiring us to be pretty much like adult
00:32:22warriors from the time we were very small.
00:32:26So that really did a number on a lot of us.
00:32:30And then shifting to YWAM, there were a lot of similar themes and the prophetic movement
00:32:38came around.
00:32:39One of the main themes, the leftover, is from the shepherding movement and the discipleship.
00:32:45Movement was the outright authoritarianism that should never be questioned.
00:32:53So on top of the fear, on top of the complex trauma, on top of not being able maybe to find
00:33:02who you really were as a person, you also had a structure that didn't let you move outside
00:33:10of that and absolutely an unchecked structure.
00:33:14So I've seen it all.
00:33:16I've seen probably some decent leaders in there who really cared about their people and some
00:33:23radically unsafe people who abused everybody.
00:33:28So from all the groups I've been in, every single group and every single system.
00:33:36I went to a Baptist school as a child, Christian, I went to Bible schools, all kinds of different
00:33:45places.
00:33:45I've seen the gamut of everything.
00:33:47But absolutely one of the themes was authoritarianism and within the system of authoritarianism was
00:33:57specialness.
00:33:58And you've talked about this on the show too.
00:34:01In addition to being warriors, we were all required and sought after specialness of secret
00:34:08knowledge.
00:34:09And this is the prophetic, this is whatever your skills as an exorcist.
00:34:15So the specialness kind of bred, I would say, a corporate narcissism.
00:34:21Even if not everybody was a narcissist, it would be like, our group is better than others.
00:34:30Our group does this better than others.
00:34:33Oh, I'll also say I was involved with a vineyard for a little bit too.
00:34:37And vineyard came along.
00:34:39And when Wimberden announced things, they were all like, we do this better than everybody
00:34:43else.
00:34:45And my own therapist came from all these movements, which is a huge blessing for me to have her.
00:34:54She was within the vineyard movement and no hate to people in all of these groups.
00:35:00There's many earnest, wonderful, godly people in these groups.
00:35:04But within the structures, it was toxic.
00:35:07Like, anyway, this is a side note.
00:35:10She said, coming out of the vineyard, she said, it's like we were trying to sell our tacos
00:35:16were better than everyone else.
00:35:18It's like, she's got that feeling where she was like, what?
00:35:21It's the same, you know?
00:35:23So as you know, with church denominations, this is a problem in general, but really shows
00:35:29forward with this.
00:35:31So, yeah, so we, there's this movement from shepherding, from discipleship, then, you know,
00:35:40to the prophetic and the structures within the mission movements that I was in.
00:35:45And then being raised in all of this, trying to figure out who am I, but I don't really have
00:35:53maybe a center that I was allowed to have or create apart from this group.
00:35:59So this is what sets apart cult kids from people who maybe joined cults later as young adults.
00:36:07So our healing work is different.
00:36:09To find our development and find our center takes a little bit, a different form, different
00:36:18type of work and complexity, as opposed to somebody who joined later who said, oh, I can go back
00:36:25to this.
00:36:26I can remember the person I was.
00:36:28I can remember my personality when I was nine, or I can remember how it was for us who were
00:36:35raised in it, we have our, we really have our work cut out for us to basically go back
00:36:43to the very bare bones of our scaffolding, take a lot away and then rebuild it again.
00:36:51So that is the psychological side of those of us raised in it, if that makes sense.
00:36:58I can relate to every single thing that you said.
00:37:00In fact, I would say that Branhamism is probably the foundation for most of what you said.
00:37:05Or actually, I should take a step back from that.
00:37:07Christian identity mixed with Branhamism was probably the Joel's Army concept, all of this
00:37:12thing, it seems to dominate the movements.
00:37:15But I love the most that you use the eye of Sauron, because that analogy, if you think,
00:37:22when you are raised in these groups, you're very programmed to have a black or white thinking.
00:37:28There can only be one answer and one false answer.
00:37:30That's all it is.
00:37:31But there's this wide variety of problems that exist, and there's this wide variety of
00:37:37personalities that exist.
00:37:39And the problem with these types of movements, exactly like you described, and you're the
00:37:45first person that has, so I'm applauding you for this.
00:37:49Whenever you're in this kind of movement, and you're being raised as a child in it, almost
00:37:54every child wants to become a Gandalf.
00:37:57Everybody wants to rise up to the top, because if you give a child a pyramid scheme, and you
00:38:03tell them that at the very top of this is the apostle, and then there's this ladder of
00:38:07this five-fold ministry ladder, everybody wants to get up to the top.
00:38:11I want to be Gandalf.
00:38:13But not everybody's personality has that ambition.
00:38:17You also have another subset of people that they want to put on the ring and hide from
00:38:22all of it.
00:38:24And that's exactly, I was more in the ring side.
00:38:27I wanted no part of all of that.
00:38:29I wanted to stand in the corner, sip my coffee, and watch everybody make fools of themselves.
00:38:33So, the problem is, whether you take the path of building your narcissistic personality disorder
00:38:42by training going up that ladder, or whether you're being the victim of the spiritual abuse
00:38:49and often verbal abuse, even by your peers who are trying to make it up that ladder, by
00:38:54putting on the ring, you suffer in both ways.
00:38:57So, I found that during my childhood, I would take these tests, often in school, I think
00:39:04they were trying to probe, is there any kind of problems in the family home, and they would
00:39:09ask you your stress levels and this kind of thing.
00:39:12I always would write that I had almost zero stress.
00:39:15But in hindsight, I'm writing this because I'm in this movement where I'm taught that I
00:39:20can't express my feelings, my emotions, because that's a demon.
00:39:24So, I had this picture of perfect life, according to what I wrote in these tests, and then I
00:39:30found out I was suffering from depression probably from age 14.
00:39:34I had all the symptoms of deep depression from age 14.
00:39:38Of course.
00:39:38Yeah, of course.
00:39:39And almost 100% of that depression came from the cult, some of it from hereditary issues that
00:39:45exist, but most, I would say 80 to 90% was the cult-related trauma.
00:39:50And dealing with that trauma was very difficult, finding terms with, when you realize it, you're
00:39:58angry at every single person who was part of this trauma, from friends who were trying
00:40:03to climb up the ladder and become Gandalf, to family members who should have protected
00:40:09you.
00:40:10And dealing with that is difficult for everyone who escapes it.
00:40:13Absolutely.
00:40:14I really love what you said about becoming Gandalf, because that was the highest of order.
00:40:20You shall not pass.
00:40:22And like all the people who use that in sermon illustrations, now I kind of roll my eyes.
00:40:28I'm just like, okay, you're not Gandalf.
00:40:32That was the highest thing we could attain.
00:40:35And I think it also, because of the structure, not only did it breed like a corporate narcissism
00:40:46and the double binds, like you described perfectly, like you had to report on your tests that I'm
00:40:54fine, everything looks good, it's a godly home, but you couldn't go no way.
00:40:59You, there was no way out, absolutely, till you understood there was.
00:41:05But the feeling is, is there's no way out.
00:41:09And so, so not only do we have this corporate, you must become Gandalf, you must not show,
00:41:16you know, the actual harm that's taking place, but it opens up for leadership who are actual
00:41:24narcissists and predators to come and be the super, the superheroes.
00:41:29Of course, as you and I both know, predators thrive in systems that are closed, authoritarian,
00:41:39and patriarchal sometimes, because the devaluation of victims is always present.
00:41:48So they can always get away with things.
00:41:50So the attraction of actual narcissists to those systems is really high and predators.
00:41:58So that's been something I've really studied and worked on for many years is understanding
00:42:02narcissism and predators and group dynamics and what types of groups they're attracted to.
00:42:10I will add another psychological side to this, to those of us raised in this,
00:42:16and have the double whammy of parents or family or friends who also have other mental health issues
00:42:26who are attracted to these types of groups.
00:42:29And oftentimes, narcissists is the foremost because they leave the biggest trail of damage,
00:42:37the widest swath of dead bodies is what, you know, predators and narcissists will leave.
00:42:43But the type of people that these groups attracted were often, first and foremost,
00:42:50maybe people with their own trauma who were looking for a family, right, who didn't have that growing up.
00:42:58People who may have had schizotypal personality disorder, which I can explain if you'd like.
00:43:06Um, maybe bipolar with the mania to it, um, a lot of neurodiverse folks also attracted to these types of things,
00:43:19also risk-taking things.
00:43:21And so you, you see this mix of humans that probably needs to be studied more, you know?
00:43:29Um, and so, yeah, I can speak to that.
00:43:32Another problem that exists, which I know because of my age, but some of the younger generation doesn't know,
00:43:39whenever you're watching people come in with all of these mental health issues,
00:43:44and if you're in tune with this, if you have family who has mental issues, you are in tune with it.
00:43:48Yeah.
00:43:49And I did have family like this.
00:43:50You know who has it and who's struggling, who's not, basically.
00:43:54Yep.
00:43:54And you watch all of these people come in, and some of them have mental health issues.
00:43:58Could have gotten help had they not been in this movement.
00:44:01But the problem that gets worse is that they have offspring who now have genetical tendencies to become like this.
00:44:10And they try to marry within the movement because the outsiders might have the evil spirits.
00:44:15So you have people with mental health issues breeding with other mental health issues.
00:44:19Then the genetics turns into a disaster.
00:44:22And then on top of all of that, the people who are now bred like this, whenever they have these ecstatic experiences,
00:44:31they attribute their mental health issues sometimes to the spirit.
00:44:35And it's not really spirit.
00:44:37They're just in an episode in some cases.
00:44:39Absolutely.
00:44:39Yep.
00:44:40Yes.
00:44:41So can I go a little bit into a couple of those diagnoses?
00:44:47Absolutely.
00:44:48Okay.
00:44:49A really good example of this, and I see this a lot now from people who come from not only these groups,
00:44:55but also some really some maybe some heavy hitter fundamentalism in general or just high control groups is OCD.
00:45:06So let's say somebody has an OCD family brain and anxiety family brain.
00:45:15They always go together.
00:45:16Usually you get into a group like this and let's say your brain is already set up like this.
00:45:23And pretty soon it is flared to an unmanageable level because of rumination on either being very scrupulous with morals and never breaking a rule
00:45:37or just the absolute fear and rumination on God watching, on the demonic, on evil things happening.
00:45:48Um, and so you see the combo with the heavy hitter, high control specifically, um, that walks into the counseling office later and says,
00:46:02what is what?
00:46:04And we have to take the time as therapists to say, okay, let's, let's talk about what, what you were brought up with.
00:46:12And also maybe what is the family brain that you were gifted with.
00:46:17Um, I tell my own kiddo, we all, you know, we were all given both the good and the bad from family.
00:46:24So OCD is one that comes up a lot.
00:46:28Also, um, schizotypal personality disorder.
00:46:32If you were to take this out of the context of, um, Christian religion or, um, the, some of these high control groups,
00:46:41you may find it more in people who, let's say, believe in UFOs or believe in, you know, that they were abducted
00:46:49and they're just super interested and they're really into it.
00:46:54And maybe they're kind of off and not as, um, attuned relationally kind of in their head more.
00:47:02And a lot of people are functional like this.
00:47:04They're fine.
00:47:05They're getting through life fine, but you add it into religion, um, like what we came from.
00:47:13And pretty soon somebody with this may struggle with saying that they have all of these special powers.
00:47:20And so while it may look like they have prophetic things, it looks again like a psychic.
00:47:27I'm not talking about the people who trick people.
00:47:29I'm talking about legitimate mental health issues.
00:47:32So you see that side of it too.
00:47:34Um, a manic episode.
00:47:37Um, also the, the high risk takers and compulsive and the ADHD, at least a portion of ADHD.
00:47:45We have a lot of neurodiversity and mental illness in my family.
00:47:48I have zero shame about it.
00:47:50Um, it's an, it's a topic of open conversation, um, with my kiddo.
00:47:56I have a daughter, um, but in my family, because I've had to unwind so many of these things.
00:48:03So coming to a place where you're watching people with some of these things, then minister
00:48:10to other people, um, is, it's really quite something.
00:48:15So I tell people sometimes that I was raised in, um, or my, the way my head works, it's
00:48:22like Tim Burton circus all the time.
00:48:24Um, like very bizarre and dark.
00:48:29I'm like, I don't care.
00:48:30That's my brain.
00:48:31That's what I was raised in.
00:48:33But, um, I say you could probably say the same in some ways.
00:48:37Yeah, definitely.
00:48:38And there's, with it comes, so I'm, I'm deeply in tune to everything you're saying.
00:48:42And like I said, it's not only is it fascinating, it touches home.
00:48:46I have friends and family who, um, some of them sadly suffer with bipolar disorder and
00:48:51even more sadly are in the religion.
00:48:54So what I have, it becomes this chicken or egg problem.
00:48:58Most times whenever somebody has bipolar disorder, the onset is around age 18, something like this.
00:49:04But then there's this question that you'll never get the answer to.
00:49:09Some people have the genetic disposition where they can develop bipolar disorder.
00:49:15However, if given a very healthy environment where the, the environment itself did not push
00:49:23them over that edge, they may never have developed it.
00:49:26However, they're in this high demand, high group, this cult mentality and the group itself
00:49:33can kind of trigger this thing.
00:49:35And so they develop it and the question will always exist.
00:49:38Would they have bypassed this entirely had they not been in the group?
00:49:42And my opinion at this point is that the group is pushing a lot of people over the edge
00:49:47who could have had healthy lives.
00:49:49Yeah.
00:49:50And I think this is true of almost any group that is on the extreme, whether they are a
00:49:58fringe Christian group or not is, I think that's always the question.
00:50:02And obviously in some cases there are people that no matter what their brain would have
00:50:07gone that way to an extent and they would have needed help, but absolutely environment
00:50:14is going to worsen some conditions and entrench them to sometimes a debilitating point, you
00:50:24know, and it's probably like you said, if you have that in your family, it's hard to
00:50:31know what person would have been debilitated or not, had they not been in this group.
00:50:38And we can't know sometimes, you know.
00:50:41Yeah.
00:50:41For me, it's a difficult thing.
00:50:43I would like for all of my friends who have this to have never had this is not only for
00:50:48them.
00:50:49I mean, they're suffering, but the family suffers with them.
00:50:51It's such a terrible thing.
00:50:53And to think that they're in a movement that could legitimately cause it really bothers
00:50:57me.
00:50:58And the fact that the leadership, some of them who aren't in this mental state, they're
00:51:02aware that they're causing problems, but yet they continue because of power, sex, money,
00:51:08whatever the drive is.
00:51:10Exactly.
00:51:10Yeah, it's, I would say for cult kids, I mean, anybody who's walked through trauma, of course,
00:51:19like that is an ongoing thing.
00:51:21But it's a level of holding grief and it's a level of continually holding grief.
00:51:29And I don't mean grief where your life has to stop and you live in continual sadness.
00:51:35But in the maturing and in the developing of your adult self is the acceptance of that you
00:51:45may never see this made right in this lifetime.
00:51:48And the profound grief that you see coming from the suffering is something that you can't change.
00:51:56And the best that we can do is we can find our own healing and speak out about it like
00:52:01you're doing.
00:52:03But it is really, really heartbreaking.
00:52:06And I joke a lot, I don't know if those who know me, a lot of dark humor and humor, which is, I think, an excellent
00:52:15coping mechanism.
00:52:16I can always find fellow traumatized kiddos in a crowd because our humor is a different thing.
00:52:26Um, so, um, but it also comes with profound sadness, you know, we're watching people who
00:52:37are still not out of it.
00:52:38Um, I, I've mentioned on the podcast many times, my cartoons are my happy place, but I don't
00:52:45talk much about the dark humor that I do like there, there are things that I like, and it's
00:52:50because of the trauma.
00:52:51And like you said, when you have this, there's this deep sadness that goes with it.
00:52:57In fact, for me, it's not just even happy or sad.
00:53:00It's this flood of emotions that come and it's uncontrollable, which is why I gravitate more
00:53:05towards the cartoons because then I can control it to the laughter.
00:53:08Yeah, exactly.
00:53:10Exactly.
00:53:11There's a, like I said, there's a million ways to heal and manage.
00:53:15Um, another something I wanted to bring up, and this is for listeners and
00:53:21for you too, is the concept of healing and post-traumatic growth, which is something I'll
00:53:29probably always be working on as many of us will, because we've seen so much and we've
00:53:36experienced so much and some of it is unspeakable, you know, absolutely unspeakable.
00:53:41And, um, I, I think that there's been this really, this commodification and, and capitalistic
00:53:51notion of healing probably in the last 20 years that has really risen.
00:53:56Like everybody, everybody's got to find healing or find a protocol and, you know, go to this
00:54:02therapist in this group and read the next self-help book.
00:54:05And, um, um, for those of us who came from a high pressure situation where we were always
00:54:12pressured as children, this isn't very helpful.
00:54:16Um, and it, it can actually sort of reactivate our trauma, um, to have the pressure.
00:54:25So even in these groups, we were pressured for healing all the time, healing and power, healing
00:54:31and power.
00:54:31And so now that we're out and, um, we see the world of healing and mental health, there
00:54:39is a huge pressure to have this figured out and to walk in freedom and walk in healing.
00:54:45And that's just not how it works.
00:54:49And, um, when people go through these processes of healing, I think the first stage is when they're
00:54:56out, you know, of course it's like a super angry stage and they're going to blast, put everybody
00:55:02on blast.
00:55:02And then it's like, I gotta, I gotta get all this healing out of the way so I can move on
00:55:07with my life.
00:55:08And it, it absolutely won't work that way.
00:55:11And I think there's such a place of grace and kindness that we can give to each other to say,
00:55:18um, healing is never linear.
00:55:22And when we are triggered or when we think we're set back, it absolutely doesn't mean we've
00:55:29lost ground from the last healings that we have not had or known or the solidity.
00:55:36And, um, that sometimes we have to be in those, like you said, flood of emotion states.
00:55:43And that doesn't mean you haven't done the work.
00:55:46It doesn't mean you don't understand things.
00:55:48And so there's this sort of this slowing down of your nervous system where you have to say,
00:55:53okay, the way that I am going to approach my life and my healing may be different from
00:55:59somebody who experienced one big trauma, who consolidates that to that thing.
00:56:05And, um, we can get caught up in all of these self-help things or all of these, um, healing
00:56:13therapeutic things.
00:56:14It's the same for, um, it's the same for health.
00:56:17I have a lot of chronic health conditions, which we could do a whole nother thing on chronic
00:56:22health and trauma and, um, the pressure to be well all the time feels a lot like the pressure
00:56:31we grew up with.
00:56:32Um, so I just wanted to say that as a point of encouragement and kindness to everybody listening
00:56:37that, um, none of us has to have this all figured out.
00:56:42And if we are working on being a safe person to the world and working on, on finding who
00:56:52we were supposed to be, um, that's, that's good, you know?
00:56:59So that's my little side thing on, uh, people who have been harmed, uh, a lot to, um, take
00:57:09a step back and, and, um, have grace.
00:57:13Um, the other side to this, I want to talk about a little bit as post-traumatic growth,
00:57:18which is the notion that, um, after trauma, we find meaning and forward movement, um, not
00:57:30necessarily because trauma was a good thing or it should have happened.
00:57:33It never should have happened.
00:57:35Never, never, but that we can absolutely define for ourselves that, um, this is who I want
00:57:42to be.
00:57:43This is where I want to go.
00:57:45And this is the creativity that is going to come out of this.
00:57:49And we ourselves get to define this.
00:57:52Nobody can tell you, John, um, God meant for you to go through all of this.
00:57:57So you could become this.
00:57:59If you believe that, and that is your forward movement, I'm like, do it.
00:58:04That's awesome.
00:58:05Nobody outside of you can tell you what your forward movement and your progress, uh, looks
00:58:12like, or should look like.
00:58:15And I think there's a lot of that now that we should be at, we should be at a certain
00:58:19place.
00:58:20And I'm like, no, post-traumatic growth is we have found meaning despite and aside from,
00:58:28and we've created, um, we've created a self that can move forward with joy and creativity,
00:58:36um, after all of this.
00:58:39So, yeah, there's a piece of all of us who've walked through this that has absolutely never
00:58:45been touched.
00:58:46There is a piece of you that is core to who you are.
00:58:52Absolutely good.
00:58:54And the thing that has not been, this is my belief.
00:58:59Let's put this on me.
00:59:00Okay.
00:59:00Not everybody believes this, but it's been helpful for my healing that has never been,
00:59:06um, torn to shreds.
00:59:08Like my nervous system was torn to shreds.
00:59:11A lot of us, but, um, there's a piece of me that absolutely came into this world was created
00:59:19to be whole and as whole.
00:59:22So that's my, uh, therapist encouragement for everybody here.
00:59:27Well, that's very good advice and encouragement.
00:59:28And there's only two things that I'll add to this.
00:59:30Number one, yes, we are going to do another one and talk about the health because that's
00:59:35another thing that fascinates me.
00:59:37I want to talk through that.
00:59:38And I've been waiting for somebody to say, yes, I want to talk through this.
00:59:42So you are now this person.
00:59:43Number two, there is an indoctrinated sense of urgency that goes with the setbacks.
00:59:49When you're in these groups, they teach you that either the rapture is coming, the end
00:59:54of days revival is coming, Armageddon is coming.
00:59:56There's different ways that these high control groups tell you this.
01:00:00And that's why they're called a high control group.
01:00:02They're using this to control you, this theology.
01:00:05And so when you leave, the first thing that I get that comes in the email, I can tell when
01:00:09somebody has just left, they always say, where do I go from here?
01:00:12Who's our new prophet?
01:00:13Who, how do I live?
01:00:15What church do I go to?
01:00:16They're not wanting to figure it out for themselves.
01:00:18They want all the answers because they have to have it now.
01:00:21But then what happens is whenever you have your first setback and you will, whenever you
01:00:26have all of this, you go, you do really, do really well unwrapping and deep tangling
01:00:31all of this in your head.
01:00:33Then something triggers it.
01:00:34And you go into that emotional state where you're as though you just left.
01:00:38Well, then that sense of urgency fights against you coming back out of it.
01:00:42And so for me, my advice to people is whenever they have this, the first thing you must get
01:00:48rid of is that sense of urgency.
01:00:49You've got a lifetime to figure it out.
01:00:51Do that and find healing while you do it.
01:00:55Absolutely.
01:00:55That is right on.
01:00:56And people who are wanting to find another group or another headship or authority or another
01:01:07system even or another set of beliefs.
01:01:11I'm like, nope, let's just settle here for a while.
01:01:14And then you can try out safe places very slowly.
01:01:19That's excellent advice.
01:01:20Yeah, because I like what you said, too, about the rapture, like everything was urgent, you
01:01:27know, for those of us raised on a thief in the night and all of those movies.
01:01:32Did you watch that whole series?
01:01:35Well, interestingly, in Branhamism, you weren't supposed to watch TV.
01:01:38Oh, that's right.
01:01:39That's right.
01:01:40Okay.
01:01:41No, we were in the realm of the high creatives, of course, shifting into YWAM, all about drama
01:01:48and theater, literally, and music.
01:01:51And so at least we had this outlet, you know, of movies and theater and all performance,
01:01:59I should say, actual performance.
01:02:02Yeah, what you said about that it's coming, it's coming, the end times, the rapture, Jesus
01:02:08is coming back, and the pressure that that creates on your nervous system.
01:02:14So, yeah, I like what you said, like, just, like, notice that urgency and step it back.
01:02:21Well, thank you so much for doing this.
01:02:22I probably could talk to you for the next three hours, but we both have work to do.
01:02:26This is fun.
01:02:27Yeah.
01:02:28Great.
01:02:29Anytime, if you have another topic that fits within my realm, like I said, I have, I think
01:02:37you and I both have a very specific realm of what we grew up in, that it's hard to explain,
01:02:43so it's nice to talk to somebody who gets it.
01:02:46So, yeah.
01:02:47Yeah, it's fun.
01:02:48Well, this has been fun.
01:02:49We'll do it again.
01:02:50And thank you for joining me.
01:02:53Okay.
01:02:54Thank you so much, John.
01:02:55We'll talk to you later.
01:02:56Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out
01:02:59on the web.
01:03:00You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:03:03For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion
01:03:07from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:03:33We'll talk to you later.
01:04:03The NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:04:05The NAR.
01:04:06The NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:04:08And we'll talk to you later.
01:04:09We'll talk to you later.
01:04:11Bye-bye.
01:04:16Bye-bye.
01:04:16Bye-bye.
01:04:21Bye-bye.
01:04:23Bye-bye.
01:04:25Bye-bye.
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