- 5 months ago
John and Chino invite Liz to share her story about her time in Faith Assembly under the leadership of Hobart Freeman. Liz recounts how she and her husband were drawn into the movement through her brother-in-law and moved to Indiana during what she describes as the exciting days of the Glory Barn. She explains how the environment gradually shifted from enthusiastic Bible teaching to an increasingly authoritarian and isolated experience as the group transitioned from the barn to tents, then to a permanent facility. Liz discusses how theological disagreements—especially Freeman’s use of Hebrews 11:1—sparked concern and eventually led to her family’s departure. She also recounts the group’s control over information and refusal to acknowledge suffering or death among members, which became glaringly evident in the aftermath of high-profile tragedies.
As the conversation progresses, Liz reflects on the deeper psychological and spiritual impact of being part of a controlling environment. She describes the emotional disorientation that followed her exit, the healing that came through speaking publicly, and how she eventually went to seminary and became a counselor. Chino and John add broader historical context about Faith Assembly’s connections to other movements and explore the personality traits and health issues that may have influenced Freeman’s increasingly harsh and erratic behavior. Together, they reflect on the nature of spiritual authority, discernment, and recovery from high-control religious systems.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Liz’s Early Life and Entry into the Charismatic Movement
02:05 The Glory Barn Era and Early Excitement
04:17 Growing Concerns and the “Diet of Bones”
05:34 Jonestown as a Turning Point
06:25 Disillusionment with Hobart Freeman’s Teaching on Faith
07:23 The Move from the Barn to the Tents and Authoritarian Shift
09:44 Hidden Tragedies and Media Silence
13:07 Parallels with Jonestown’s Information Control
15:01 Moving to Indiana and Immersion in Faith Assembly
17:11 Wrestling with Doctrine and Questioning the Leadership
19:24 Being Dismissed for Open Theological Discussion
22:03 Life after Leaving and Personal Recovery
24:23 Trauma, Vulnerability, and Cult Recruitment
27:18 The Allure of Freeman’s Seminary Training
31:12 Disputes over Doctrine, Women’s Roles, and Medical Treatment
33:30 Rebuilding Faith and Helping Others through Counseling
37:11 Speaking Out in the Media as Therapy
41:15 Hobart Freeman’s Health Decline and Personality Changes
43:09 The Role of Diabetes in Freeman’s Mood and Leadership
46:10 Pain, Anger, and the Collapse of a Movement
49:33 Personal Reflections on Leaving and Finding Real Faith
52:22 Counseling Women and Confronting Subtle Religious Control
54:26 Closing Thoughts and Hope for Survivors
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp
As the conversation progresses, Liz reflects on the deeper psychological and spiritual impact of being part of a controlling environment. She describes the emotional disorientation that followed her exit, the healing that came through speaking publicly, and how she eventually went to seminary and became a counselor. Chino and John add broader historical context about Faith Assembly’s connections to other movements and explore the personality traits and health issues that may have influenced Freeman’s increasingly harsh and erratic behavior. Together, they reflect on the nature of spiritual authority, discernment, and recovery from high-control religious systems.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Liz’s Early Life and Entry into the Charismatic Movement
02:05 The Glory Barn Era and Early Excitement
04:17 Growing Concerns and the “Diet of Bones”
05:34 Jonestown as a Turning Point
06:25 Disillusionment with Hobart Freeman’s Teaching on Faith
07:23 The Move from the Barn to the Tents and Authoritarian Shift
09:44 Hidden Tragedies and Media Silence
13:07 Parallels with Jonestown’s Information Control
15:01 Moving to Indiana and Immersion in Faith Assembly
17:11 Wrestling with Doctrine and Questioning the Leadership
19:24 Being Dismissed for Open Theological Discussion
22:03 Life after Leaving and Personal Recovery
24:23 Trauma, Vulnerability, and Cult Recruitment
27:18 The Allure of Freeman’s Seminary Training
31:12 Disputes over Doctrine, Women’s Roles, and Medical Treatment
33:30 Rebuilding Faith and Helping Others through Counseling
37:11 Speaking Out in the Media as Therapy
41:15 Hobart Freeman’s Health Decline and Personality Changes
43:09 The Role of Diabetes in Freeman’s Mood and Leadership
46:10 Pain, Anger, and the Collapse of a Movement
49:33 Personal Reflections on Leaving and Finding Real Faith
52:22 Counseling Women and Confronting Subtle Religious Control
54:26 Closing Thoughts and Hope for Survivors
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org.
00:43And with me, I have my very special guest, Liz Schella, former member of Faith Assembly,
00:48and also Chino Ross, who was researching Faith Assembly.
00:53Chino, I just got to see you, what was it, two days ago, three days ago, and we've been
00:57talking through all of this weird mess that was Faith Assembly and how it connected to
01:03various groups forwards and backwards in time.
01:06And I was really excited.
01:07We were talking about bringing Liz on to share her story.
01:10So I'm very glad to have Liz on.
01:13And maybe, Liz, if you could take a moment and just begin by telling everyone a little
01:17bit about yourself.
01:18Sure.
01:18I was 19, living in Ohio, newly married, and my, at the time, husband's brother, who got
01:30us involved in the charismatic movement.
01:32Thanks a lot, Bill.
01:34And he told us about this church in Indiana that was this college professor that was going
01:42to offer everybody a seminary education for free, just show up and buy the books.
01:47And I'm like, I'm all about that.
01:49I became a Christian when I was 15, was not raised, well, I was kind of raised in the Presbyterian.
01:57So the whole charismatic thing was pretty dramatic for me.
02:00That's how I rebelled.
02:03So we moved there.
02:04And that was the days of the Glory Barn.
02:08And it was, I got to tell you, it was pretty exciting.
02:12The atmosphere was incredible.
02:15A lot of young people, just a lot of energy.
02:19And at that time, it was really a lot of teaching.
02:23Old Testament survey, New Testament survey.
02:27And that's how we got involved there.
02:29And we left in, that was in 1975.
02:35And we left in 79, shortly after they moved into the new building.
02:39So we were there for all the phases, you know, the Glory Barn, the exile to the tents, and
02:47then the new building.
02:48And it just, it was just, it just got too weird.
02:52It got too weird.
02:53It's funny hearing you say it like that.
02:55You have fond memories of being in the group.
02:57I also have fond memories of being in the group.
02:59So I fully understand where you're coming from.
03:03And we recently met with a lady who had escaped the Branham cult.
03:08And she also described this.
03:10It's funny to me, when I read the comment feeds, you find the people who are still very
03:14active in the groups.
03:15And they think that you left it because you didn't like it, and you're disgruntled, or
03:19all of this stuff, you know, all of the baggage that comes with it.
03:22But many of us, like myself, had a good time.
03:25It's not that, it's not that we didn't like it.
03:27It's just that we found that it was so far off the mark.
03:30And I could not, I could not continue my family in something that was wrong.
03:34Yeah, very much so the same for us.
03:37We were kind of on the fringe, outer fringe of the inner group, knew a lot of the young
03:45teachers.
03:45And it was very special in the beginning, especially for young people like us.
03:54And as time went on, it just got harder and harder to, of course, one of their favorite
04:02phrases when we would be talking about different stuff theologically is, you know, you eat the
04:07meat, spit out the bones.
04:08Well, we ended up with a diet of bones, basically.
04:13And I noticed the biggest change when we left the Glory Barn.
04:21And we were in the tents, and we met in homes for a while.
04:26My ex-husband and I met in his brother's home.
04:29He was, he was actually in charge of doing the tape editing for Dr. Freeman.
04:36And, uh, so he was kind of on the inner circle a little bit.
04:41Um, but it was a real hierarchy there.
04:45And, um, after we left the Glory Barn, uh, things started to get, um, just really contentious.
04:55Um, I saw a big change in Dr. Freeman.
04:57He was always this mysterious, you know, daddy figure, you know, he would, like, walk onto
05:04the stage.
05:05Um, but we were more involved with, um, you know, Bruce Kinsey, some of the younger teachers.
05:11Um, Bruce will always have a special place in my heart.
05:14I think Bruce was in over his head from day one.
05:18And, uh, as Dr. Freeman got more and more paranoid, it's the only term I can use.
05:25Um, he started turning on his own leaders and, uh, after the catalyst for me was, uh, the
05:35Jonestown thing.
05:35We were rebels to a certain extent.
05:38We kept our, uh, we kept our TV.
05:40It was hidden in the back room.
05:43But, um, when Jonestown hit and all of the news outlets were talking about the characteristics
05:52of a cult, it was like, you could have knocked me over with a feather.
05:57It's like, this, this is our life.
06:00Um, and so I was ready to leave then.
06:03Uh, took my husband a little longer.
06:05Um, but, um, fortunately, thank God for me.
06:10When I became a Christian, God really gave me a love for his word.
06:14Um, and so I was always a student of the word.
06:19So I was a little quicker to go, you know, this is not right.
06:23Um, Hebrews 11 one was one of my favorite examples.
06:27Um, when you have somebody like Hobart Freeman, who's supposedly this scholar, faith is a substance
06:34of, you know, and he, he actually taught that faith is a substance of things hoped for.
06:41And that when you hope and you have faith, this turns, the substance manifests what you
06:47want.
06:47It was like, uh, I don't think that's what that says, but you know, who am I?
06:54I think that's the response that so many people had with different things Hobart taught.
06:59They, they had a little sneaking suspicion in their own mind.
07:04Something's not exactly right here, but almost invariably those people pushed it under the
07:10rug.
07:11And I know I did that really early on, but because I was a minister pretty young, then
07:16I quickly had to come to grips with some of those things that I didn't agree with either.
07:22And so when you were at the glory barn, you were there in 1975.
07:28So you, you really did see the glory barn.
07:31Then you saw the breakup between Hobart and, um, Mel and Mary Beth Grider moved to the tents
07:38and moved to the new building.
07:39Um, what you just said is what we have heard from almost everyone that the transition from
07:47the glory barn to their future location was a turning point.
07:53It's like Hobart, you know, he was, he had this somewhat kind and accepting spirit prior
08:02to that.
08:03But once he had the fallout with, um, Mel and Mary Beth, and once he knew, I think that they
08:09were going to get their own place where he's not renting from someone else, then didn't you
08:15think that he took it to a, an entirely different level of just authoritarianism?
08:23We're the ones and we're the only ones.
08:26Oh, absolutely.
08:28Um, that was, that was a dramatic shift.
08:31Um, it became a feeling of, you know, we've been, uh, we've been evicted and now we're being
08:38persecuted.
08:39And that's when the media started getting involved.
08:42Um, I remember back when, um, was it Jerry Burkett's wife died?
08:50Sally.
08:50Yeah.
08:51Sally.
08:52That was glory barn days.
08:53Nobody criticized him.
08:55Everybody stepped up, helped him take care of the baby.
08:58It was just a tragedy and everybody kind of rallied around him.
09:02Um, and so to see the difference between what it used to be like and a sense of family and
09:07community and what it ended up being.
09:09Um, and, and as I mentioned to you before, um, because of the whole positive thinking
09:16and confession thing, you couldn't talk about anything.
09:20Right.
09:21And, um, so we kind of heard hints and, you know, whispers of, did you, did you hear that
09:28so-and-so died or their child died?
09:32No, I hadn't heard that.
09:34I'm sure it's just a rumor.
09:36Uh, you know, and so we really did not know the extent of what was going on.
09:42Um, which was one of the reasons, um, and we weren't trying to be heroic about it, but
09:47one of the reasons after we left, um, and moved back to Ohio, why we started reaching
09:53out to the media and saying, can you please fill us in?
09:56Because we have no clue what was happening.
09:59Uh, there were just things that were taboo.
10:02You couldn't make a negative confession.
10:04You couldn't, you know, that was gossip.
10:05That was backbiting.
10:07That was being an accuser of the brethren.
10:10And, um, it was, uh, it was really shell shock.
10:15We walked away and it just, uh, I was just stunned, um, and really eager to find out what
10:21in the world who we had been a part of.
10:24Uh, John knows from these interviews that the two of us have done together that those
10:30newspaper articles, uh, some of which contain your name and your husband's and your, your
10:36brother-in-law, that was my source of information because when I would try to talk to Hobart or
10:41June and I did talk to both of them or to someone else connected to the church, just as you
10:47described, Liz, it was, they shut everything down as far as information.
10:52And that's a problem with an organization like that.
10:55And I always tell people it's one of the true signs of a cult when they control all the
11:01information, when you're not allowed to hear or see or learn anything apart from what comes
11:08from the pulpit, you probably have a religious cult on your hands because a normal, healthy
11:16church environment, uh, as I've often said, the pastor obviously believes what he's teaching
11:23is right, or he wouldn't be teaching it, but he doesn't forbid you to disagree with him
11:28or to check out other sources.
11:31You know, that's just, that's just part of what human life and adulthood are all about.
11:36But I would not have known about those deaths.
11:40You didn't know about them because you weren't reading the newspapers and weren't allowed to
11:44as soon as you got out and you could get your hands on a few newspaper articles.
11:48And, you know, before you know it, you're just astounded at the number of deaths.
11:57And you're right, uh, Sally Burkett and her unborn child were early ones back in, um, 1976,
12:04right around the 4th of July in 1976.
12:08And it was, as you said, always as though we are being persecuted, not that someone has
12:17died.
12:18It's like they didn't have any value for human life.
12:22What they valued was their cult doctrine and they really valued this persecution complex
12:29that they wore very proudly.
12:31Yeah, absolutely.
12:32Um, and Dr. Freeman in particular, it got to the point where that's all he talked about.
12:38He wasn't even really teaching much anymore.
12:41He was talking about, you know, don't talk about this and don't talk to these people.
12:45And, you know, it's the end times and we're the overcomers and yikes.
12:50Yeah, it was really tragic, really tragic to watch that disintegration of him in particular
12:56and the leadership and that, that family feeling that just, that got left behind when we left
13:03the barn.
13:04I find it fascinating that I'm involved with the former members of the Jonestown group,
13:11which that is, um, it's a, it's an unbelievable story.
13:15Those who are unfamiliar, Jim Jones and somewhere around 900 of his followers committed mass
13:21suicide in Jonestown, Guyana.
13:23Um, I've been working with the Jonestown Institute and they've invited me to the, some of the
13:28community support groups.
13:30What most people miss about that event, when you think of that event, you think that's
13:34it, it stopped, it's done.
13:35It is no more.
13:36There's no way that anybody could continue in this thing.
13:39But a lot of people don't realize that there were other components to this.
13:45You had the, the actual massacre in Jonestown, Guyana, but there were actually people's temple
13:49groups and support groups and, um, little satellite groups that were throughout various
13:55places in, in the United States.
13:58And much like you described, information flowed very, very slowly into those groups.
14:03One of the, one of the people that I was talking with said that she and her husband actually
14:08joined people's temple after the event, because they were trying to get information about their
14:13family members who had died, sadly.
14:16And the only way to get information, they thought, was to join the group.
14:19But even then, the information's being withheld.
14:22Yeah, that's, that's the truth.
14:24And again, it's like the old game of telephone.
14:27By the time it gets from a little bit from one person to a little bit to another and on
14:33and on, you never know what's real.
14:35Um, and like I said, it was, it was real shell shock after we left, um, people that we knew
14:42that we had no idea what was going on and Marty Mudd, uh, and their children.
14:47It just, uh, complete shock.
14:50So you guys, um, evidently you lived in Ohio and you came into contact with Dr. Freeman's
14:57ministry and message somehow in Ohio and then ended up moving to Indiana.
15:02Can you share some of how all of that took place?
15:06Sure.
15:07That was, um, really at the, uh, persuasion of my ex-husband's brother, Bill Schwan.
15:15Um, he was, I don't know how he got involved,
15:19but he was getting the tapes.
15:20He was listening and he was going to move there.
15:23Um, and he talked us into it.
15:25Of course, that didn't take much persuading for me.
15:28Um, but, uh, that's, we just ended up just picking up and moving, uh, no notice.
15:36We found a place to live.
15:38Um, work was a, a bit of a challenge for my ex-husband, but, um, it was, um, it was just
15:45a kind of a spur of the moment thing, but he was very, very involved.
15:49And so we were at the meetings, uh, almost every day, uh, sometimes twice a day.
15:56And when you weren't actually physically in a meeting, you were listening to the tapes
16:00or reading the books and talking about them together.
16:02Um, so it was a very immersive experience, um, very much like learning a new language in
16:08some senses.
16:10Um, but that's, uh, that immersion is part of what has helped me, um, sort all of this
16:18out.
16:18Um, I kind of tried to deconstruct after we left, uh, doesn't work.
16:24Once God's got a hold of you, that's it.
16:25Um, but I ended up reluctantly kind of becoming, uh, uh, a bit of a heresy hunter, I guess.
16:34And I'm sure that's how I stumbled across you guys.
16:37Um, the, the algorithm works to the advantage sometimes, you know, um, but, um, now I'm retired.
16:46I have a passion for, uh, teaching hermeneutics to women and, uh, it's, it's, the church is so
16:55biblically illiterate.
16:56It's a shame.
16:57And that's how groups like this end up being so persuasive is you've got a little bit of
17:05passion and a little bit of knowledge, and it's just enough to get you in trouble.
17:10Uh, and they take it and they run with it.
17:12And it's, um, they control every aspect, not maliciously, I don't think, but it controls
17:19every aspect of your life.
17:20You know, who you marry, where you live, whether or not you have your children at home.
17:26Um, which I did not.
17:27Well, my last one I did, but that was accidental.
17:29She came really quick.
17:32Um, but you know, I was, again, I was a rebel.
17:36I had my babies in the hospital.
17:38Um, we went to doctors when we needed to, uh, but you didn't talk about it.
17:43You did not talk about that.
17:45You didn't share it.
17:46So anyway, back to Bill, he got us involved and he then became kind of on the inside, uh,
17:53group, uh, with editing the tapes.
17:56And, uh, after we experienced the whole tent thing, um, we were meeting in my brother-in-law's
18:07home and doing Bible studies there.
18:09And there for the first time, we were actually able to begin to talk about some of these core
18:16differences.
18:16Um, is faith really a literal physical substance?
18:21Um, is it only us?
18:23You know, it was, if you leave faith assembly, you leave the faith.
18:27Uh, I never believed that.
18:29Um, and so word got back to leadership that we were actually talking about some of these
18:35things.
18:35And now I don't, I didn't even remember this until you brought it up, you know, but we got
18:40booted.
18:42Uh, actually we didn't.
18:43My, uh, brother-in-law did along with a bunch of other people.
18:47We were in Ohio that weekend.
18:49So, um, I was not aware of what was happening.
18:52Um, but because we dared to actually discuss theological things, um, not even to challenge
19:01or question, but just to openly discuss differences and what does this really mean?
19:06And by that time, some of, some of the, uh, the families that we were meeting with were
19:11taking Greek and it's like, wait a minute, that's not what that verb is.
19:16That's not what that noun is.
19:18Um, so, um, in that sense, I guess we actually were a little persecuted.
19:26John, you might not, um, know this part of my story with Liz, but, um, I can say this
19:32for, for everyone's benefit because John does, uh, he does so many interviews with people from
19:40different streams of Branhamism and even maybe things that aren't totally connected to Branhamism.
19:45Although for some reason, most of them seem like they are, uh, Dr. Freeman and faith assembly
19:50definitely had a connection to Branham.
19:52So when he gets, um, a contact or an email from someone, if it concerns Dr. Freeman or faith
20:01assembly, then he normally copies me and forwards that to me.
20:05So, so that's how I first came into contact with you.
20:11And then you and I traded some text messages and then we ended up speaking on the phone
20:17and, and I've told, I've told John, I think I've told him this story.
20:20If I haven't, I'll tell him this story for the first time now.
20:23But as we were talking, you know, I knew you as Liz Shella because that's who you said you
20:29were and I was just asking some about your story and your background and your, and the
20:35stories that you told me reminded me of someone that I knew or that I knew of.
20:41And I was just racking my brain thinking, how can this woman be different than this person
20:49I'm thinking of in the past?
20:50And what I'm thinking in the past of are from some newspaper articles, which I have sent you
20:56pictures of.
20:57And so somewhere in our conversation, I said something about a woman named Elizabeth
21:03Schwan and you said, that's me.
21:08And I was so surprised because I hadn't made the connection between your name now and your
21:14name there.
21:14And then as soon as you told me that it was just like a flood of memories came back.
21:19And I said, you know, I know you, I know of you and your husband and your brother-in-law
21:25and, and, and I remember your story.
21:28And so it's, how interesting is this for you today thinking that this was a June 27, 1981
21:38Warsaw newspaper reporter who interviewed you about your exit from faith assembly.
21:47And here we are 44 years later, and you're being interviewed again by two podcasters about
21:58your exit from faith assembly.
22:00That it's crazy.
22:02Like I said, we moved there when I was 19, I'm 69 now, 50 years for crying out loud.
22:08Um, but it's very much a part of who I am as a person and not in a traumatic way.
22:14I'm very grateful that I'm someone that survived intact.
22:20Um, we didn't lose a family member.
22:22Um, we didn't suffer serious consequences in terms of, you know, health or anything like
22:28that.
22:28And, um, the faith that I have today is very much grounded in what I went through to overcome
22:36all the false teaching and, um, the shunning and, uh, you know, repairing family relationships
22:43that I had abandoned because they weren't in the faith, you know?
22:46Um, and the faith that I have now is real because I chose it, you know, piece by piece, item by
22:55item.
22:56Um, and it's made me into a very grateful person that I did survive.
23:02I'm not one of the folks who unfortunately end up very bitter, um, or abandoning their
23:08faith, um, if they ever had it to begin with.
23:11These, these groups just suck people in.
23:13I, I'm sure somebody has done the research, but I would be interested in finding out how
23:18many people who get involved in a group like that, um, have a, have a history of trauma.
23:25Um, and it's very much like a re-family, uh, experience if you didn't have a good one to
23:31begin with.
23:32Uh, it fills a lot of emptiness for people, uh, and it's very, very hard to leave that
23:40behind, you know, relationships.
23:42That was hard.
23:44We have an upcoming podcast.
23:46A lady was going to share her story and I hijacked her story because she started talking
23:51about her, uh, work in the mental health profession.
23:54And that's a subject that fascinates me.
23:56So I, I like started opening up and asking her all kinds of questions and that's one
24:00of the things that we discussed.
24:01So it'll be coming out soon.
24:03I can't remember if it comes out before or after this one.
24:06I think it's before, but it is true.
24:10There are people who go through severe trauma and they're seeking something and they have
24:14this void that they need to fill.
24:16Well, usually a cult is appealing to a person trying to fill a void because they think it's
24:21an easy plug in and they can suddenly feel this emptiness that they feel inside and what
24:26they suddenly learn is it's like planting a virus inside of yourself.
24:30It begins to spread.
24:31And now the void is literally, there's something that you have trouble ripping it back out.
24:36But what, um, what's interesting to me is the way channel described, he was talking and
24:42then suddenly realized who you were.
24:44Well, me talking to you, I have, this is the first time I've met you.
24:47I feel like I've known you for years just because of the things you're saying, you're
24:52talking about faith as the substance.
24:54That was Branhamism 101.
24:56In fact, that I can't remember if the title still has the name or if they've changed it,
25:00but there are sermons that that is the theme, the title, the substance of the sermon.
25:06And you can't really even call it a sermon because he's taking a thought and he's building
25:09a whole speech around the thought.
25:11So we, as children, we would go around trying to substance things, you know, right?
25:16If you think of, if you think of the kids today, ironically, who are condemned by the
25:21offspring of this movement, it's like Harry Potter with his wand going, expectro patronum.
25:26We tried to do this with our faith and it, it was just wizardry.
25:31That's all it was.
25:32They were trying to teach wizardry.
25:34And I get labeled, even you use the label heresy hunter.
25:37What's funny is, I, like you, don't see men and women who are getting into the ministry
25:45who have no experience, no learning whatsoever as teaching any sort of sound theology.
25:51They're winging it and building a following.
25:55Well, I see heresy hunters in much the same way.
25:58There are people who they escape something and they become a quote-unquote heresy hunter
26:02and they too haven't become grounded, which is a huge, huge problem.
26:07So I, I actually avoid that title.
26:09All I am trying to do is piece together all of the history that these groups have tried
26:13to cover up.
26:14But interestingly, when you do this, it becomes heresy hunting because they're covering up
26:19their past heresies that everybody does not even know exists.
26:23Mm-hmm.
26:24That's very, very true.
26:26And I use that term in jest.
26:29I like to think of it more as teaching people to have discernment.
26:33That's a lost art.
26:35And when I teach women's Bible studies, you know, I inevitably get asked, you know, well,
26:41what do you think about this person?
26:42And what about that podcast?
26:44And what's the, you know, what do you think of this book?
26:46Is this okay or not okay?
26:48And I always tell them, you know, I can name names and often I do.
26:51Um, and then I follow that up with, but I'd rather, let's talk about what makes someone
27:00okay or not okay.
27:01What are they teaching that's not okay?
27:03Uh, and you have so many people now rising up that are, you know, so popular who have absolutely
27:10no theological grounding whatsoever, no training, no, uh, it's, it's frightening what's happening
27:17to the church now.
27:19They're just ripe for the picking.
27:20And I think going back to something you said in the earlier part of this interview, Liz,
27:25that it was Dr. Freeman's seminary training.
27:28That was just a huge lure for so many people where people like William Branham and Kenneth
27:35Hagen and Kenneth Copeland and all these guys, you know, they had zero theological training
27:41and Hobart actually had a lot.
27:43You know, he had gone through undergraduate.
27:45He'd gotten a master's degree at Southern Baptist and he'd gotten his PhD, a doctorate
27:51in theology, not a PhD.
27:52A lot of people are preachers and professors with a PhD, but he had a doctorate in theology
27:58in Hebrew and Old Testament.
28:00And when, so when you're young as you were, as I was, I was 17 years old when I first heard Dr.
28:09Freeman and I visited the glory barn in August of 1975.
28:13So you were probably there whenever I visited.
28:17When you're, when you were already naturally turned on by the Holy Spirit to a love of God,
28:24a love of his word, a love of his church.
28:26You want to be with his people.
28:28You want to worship.
28:29You want to study scripture.
28:30You want to grow.
28:31You know, you know, you're not satisfied where you are.
28:34And then you have this offered to you.
28:37There is no way that, that you're going to turn away.
28:43You are definitely going to pack up and move to the glory barn and get all of this wonderful
28:49knowledge.
28:50But as you've said, with Hobart's use of Hebrews 11, one, and as John and I have talked ad
28:56nauseam on these podcasts, Hobart, even though he had some training, his training was in Hebrew
29:04and in Old Testament.
29:06It wasn't in systematic theology.
29:08It wasn't in apologetics.
29:10It wasn't in epistemology.
29:13The things that are important to me, it was not in apologetics.
29:16It was not in hermeneutics.
29:20You know, it was in a couple of technical areas, which is good.
29:25And the classes that led to that should have given you a foundation in these other areas.
29:32But it seems like once Hobart came into contact with the charismatic movement, his real formal
29:40theological undergirding kind of went by the wayside.
29:44And he adopted the proof text mentality.
29:47As long as you've got a text that has a word or phrase that says basically what you need,
29:53then, as John just said, it's not a sermon you preach from that.
29:57It's just a bunch of storytelling and you just make it whatever you want.
30:02And Hebrews 11, one is a great example.
30:05I also, way back then, never thought that the writer of Hebrews meant that verse as a formal
30:13definition of faith.
30:15I think it's just an illustration.
30:17And he goes on to illustrate what he meant by that, by all the Old Testament examples.
30:22But if I'm hearing you right, it was that verse and you and your husband's and your brother-in-law's
30:31interpretation of that, which differed with Hobart's, that calls the division between you
30:37guys and them.
30:38Is that correct?
30:39That's correct.
30:40Actually, my brother-in-law, Bill, was called into the principal's office by Bruce, which I, to this day,
30:50find surprising.
30:51But I think what happened to Bruce was he was really trying too hard.
30:58He was trying too hard to be his father-in-law.
31:02And so he made some really poor choices.
31:05I don't hold that against him.
31:07But yeah, and it wasn't just Hebrews 11, one, it was a bunch of other things, the role
31:12of women, the idea about it being a sin to go to a doctor, and the other people that Hobart
31:23had previously been aligned with that he was now bad-mouthing.
31:28It's funny when I heard John say that Hobart distanced himself from people like Branham and
31:36Hagen, I bought their books in his bookstore.
31:41Yeah, no.
31:43But it was that push to become exclusive, and we're in, and we're special.
31:48And yeah, it was an ugly breakup, but it was more than time.
31:57It was a good time.
31:58That's what we needed to have happen.
31:59I don't know that we would have left as quickly as we did if it hadn't been for that confrontation.
32:06But yeah, if Hobart had not been a professor, former professor, at Greece Theological Seminary,
32:13for crying out loud, I never would have gotten involved.
32:17At least I tell myself I wouldn't have.
32:19But that was the appeal to me.
32:21He had something that I wanted, which was an education.
32:25And it's ironic because I ended up going to seminary, got a master's degree in biblical
32:34counseling, and became a counselor, mental health therapist.
32:38So I've been able to help a lot of people, women in particular, through a transition like
32:44that.
32:45I worked for a while in domestic violence, working with victims.
32:49And I can't tell you how many times I heard, you know, well, I can't leave my husband.
32:55You know, my church will kick me out.
32:58Or, you know, I can't get divorced.
33:00Divorce is a sin.
33:02It's just the perversion of theology and religion and the confusion and the new age practices and
33:10the hocus pocus and the focus on, you know, emotions.
33:15Emotion is the big thing.
33:17Um, it's not about theology, you know, theology will cripple you.
33:21It's all about how you feel and what your experiences are.
33:24It's just, that's a recipe for disaster.
33:26And it's, it's becoming evident.
33:29Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
33:33modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
33:39movements into the new apostolic reformation?
33:41You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
33:49On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles
33:55Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and
34:01digital versions of each book.
34:03You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
34:09movements.
34:10If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute
34:15button at the top.
34:16And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
34:22to or watching.
34:22On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
34:28Whenever you guys were, I guess, dismissed or disfellowshipped, where were you living at
34:36that time and how did you find out about that and what did the next few weeks and months look
34:42like for you guys?
34:44Wow.
34:45We, at that point, were often driving back to Ohio to be with family.
34:50Um, I had, you know, two little kids.
34:55I ended up with three babies under three.
34:58Um, and I was one of those people that was never going to have children.
35:02So thank, thank God I did.
35:04But, um, we were in Ohio when that went down with Bill and Bruce.
35:09And so we found out about it, um, from my brother-in-law.
35:13Uh, and quite frankly, um, I barely remember the next couple of years.
35:20I had my third baby, uh, when we were in the process of moving back to Ohio.
35:26Um, like I said, at home, she came in like an hour and a half.
35:31Um, so it was, it was a blur.
35:34I was depressed.
35:36I was anxious.
35:37I had lost all of these friends, all of these connections, um, and a sense of purpose.
35:45Um, I was so used to being very involved, um, having my, every waking moment taken up
35:52by church activities and, you know, hanging with friends.
35:55Um, I was, um, I was lost.
35:57I was just lost and, um, ended up in counseling myself, thankfully.
36:04But, um, reaching out to the media was actually very therapeutic for me.
36:11Um, it was validation.
36:13That is really good to hear.
36:14Um, I showed one article.
36:16This was the main article, um, a series of articles, John and Liz, that the Fort Wayne
36:22paper did.
36:23This was done in May of 1983, where the first time they entered, you left in 79?
36:30Yes.
36:30And the first article was done in, um, the Warsaw paper in June of 1981, where they interview
36:38you and your husband.
36:40And I don't know if your brother-in-law was involved in that interview, but they kind of,
36:45you know, they were looking for someone who was willing to talk and, you know, nobody at
36:50Faith Assembly was willing to talk.
36:51Even a lot of ex-Faith Assembly people, they still had this fear on them that if I say anything
36:57against Faith Assembly, I'm going to have a car wrecked, or I'm going to die of cancer
37:02or something.
37:03But then, two years later, a series of articles came out in the Fort Wayne newspaper, and they
37:09were the bombshell.
37:11They were the ones that were picked up by the national media.
37:13You can see here up at the top, it says 52 deaths.
37:16Well, they became hundreds of deaths shortly thereafter.
37:20But that is where I saw that you were giving, and they quoted you more than you.
37:27And the men, maybe the men weren't being interviewed, I don't know, but it did look like you were
37:34just free enough, I'm guessing by that time, that's four years out of Faith Assembly, free
37:41enough to feel like, why not just tell the truth, you know, like it or leave it?
37:46This is what I experienced.
37:48This is what I witnessed.
37:50These are the true reasons why I'm no longer there.
37:53It's not as though you were, as Faith Assembly adherents would say, oh, they're just out
37:59biting the hand that fed them, and they couldn't stand the faith walk, they failed their faith
38:05trials, so now they're out criticizing.
38:07They never could accept the fact that people could leave and did leave for some valid reasons.
38:15Now, I know you guys were kind of disfellowshipped, but I think you were probably headed out the
38:19door in the next few months or next year anyway, so you're saying that even doing these newspaper
38:25interviews, irony of irony, because that's a sin to talk to the newspaper people, irony
38:32of ironies, that was therapeutic for you.
38:34It very much was, and I guess I'm a little, I have a bigger mouth, I guess, than the guys
38:43in the family did, but also they, my brother-in-law in particular, had a hard time giving up the
38:51role of prophet for Dr. Freeman.
38:54Um, and, you know, we left before things got really crazy, um, before most of those deaths
39:03happened, um, at least to my knowledge, um, and it took me a while to sort out how I felt
39:10about myself, how I felt about God, how I felt, you know, I, I remember asking the question
39:15of God, I, I, I thought you sent me there, what, what happened?
39:18Um, so I had to work through that, but, uh, I was, when we first left, I still saw Dr.
39:25Freeman as legitimate, um, I got over that, um, I, again, I don't think he was a particularly
39:34malicious person, he was just a narcissist, um, with some pretty serious health problems,
39:41and I, I think towards the end, untreated diabetes, you know, that will make someone psychotic,
39:47um, and I, I think by that point, he pretty much was, uh, completely irrational, um, but
39:55we, we left before things got really, really bad, um, and I'm glad that we did, I don't
40:01know what if, what would have happened if we'd stuck around, but, yeah, the fall of, um,
40:0779, uh, is when we made the break, but I was ready by that summer of 79, I was done, um,
40:17I was looking for excuses to not go, you know, you couldn't say, I don't feel well, you know,
40:22it's like, oh, you know, this baby, um, and I had, like I said, I had two little kids too,
40:29so, uh, but I, I was done, I was just done, um, um, before we got dismissed, and we didn't
40:36get dismissed directly, uh, my brother-in-law did, and I think Bruce, I mean, we were at Bruce's
40:44house, you know, um, I remember playing Pong, that was a big deal, he had this, you know,
40:50equipment, um, but I don't think he realized that my husband and his brother were family,
40:58um, so he didn't target us, uh, he kicked out his, uh, my husband's brother, um, and so
41:06we, that was good timing for us, we were done.
41:09I think the people who have exited Faith Assembly, as you guys have, and have spent some time
41:16processing the man, Hobart Freeman, I don't think any of us are willing to say, because
41:24I don't believe this to be true, that Hobart was a deliberately evil, wicked, manipulative,
41:32money-hungry, power-hungry person. I don't think he went into his ministry with any of
41:41that in his mind or in his personality, but I do agree with you, I think that he had some
41:49personality disorders that are traceable all the way back to his early childhood, he definitely
41:55had physical illnesses, as we know, that trace back to young in his life, and when he heard
42:02this Kenneth Hagen, name it and claim it message, I just think he thought he had found heaven
42:08on earth, that I can get rid of my heart condition, I can get rid of my polio, and if you can, great,
42:13then be about your business and do it, but we know that none of that ever happened for him,
42:18and so to continue to hold on to that for years and years in spite of the reality, and then to begin
42:26to double down on everything and against everyone who doesn't see it the way you see it, to your
42:35point, is a sign of someone with some serious physical and mental health issues. I also want to go
42:42back and focus on something that you said, because it might get missed, and for me, this is one of the
42:48more significant things, you mentioned the diabetes and how that affects the personality of the
42:53person. I'm diabetic, so I understand everything that you're saying, people who aren't diabetic
42:58might miss that entirely, but in the Branham family, I've been told, and I think if I remember
43:04correctly, there are two or more birth certificates that confirm it, diabetes ran in the Branham family
43:10as well, and for somebody who doesn't understand the disease, whenever your blood sugar elevates,
43:18your blood thickens, and as the blood is flowing through the brain, it's not flowing correctly
43:23through the brain because it is thicker, and unless you treat this, and basically you have syrup running
43:29through your veins, and unless you treat this, it does very weird things to your head. I'm fortunate that
43:36I was out of this movement whenever my onset happened, and I was with the doctors at the point
43:41in which they told me, now it's time for you to go on this stuff. It was an instant change. My outlook
43:47on life changed. I remember I was getting moody, and even probably some of the videos, I don't know if
43:53people caught on to it, but my mood had significantly declined until I was able to get on to the medicine,
44:00and it fixed this. So when I look back at Branham's ramblings and watch how moody he was in the rambling,
44:07they turned into rants, and ironically, when he would get angry and go through these rants, he would
44:14just, everything from women using, you know, washing machines to blue suede shoes and everywhere in
44:21between, you can go to my website, and you can type in rules, and you can see some of these things.
44:25They're not really rules. They're mostly him just very, very distraught, and it's all coming. It's
44:33like diarrhea of the brain and constipation of the brain and diarrhea of the mouth, and I look at
44:38Hobart, towards the end of his life, I see the same kind of thing. So I think what you said with
44:43diabetes may have more of an impact even than anything else we've examined.
44:47Well, it's ironic because my ex-husband is down in a nursing home with dementia, with several strokes,
44:55because of untreated diabetes. So, yeah, it's tragic, and it just completely changes someone's
45:05personality, and, you know, looking back, I can see, again, especially after we left the barn,
45:11that's when I started noticing changes. He wasn't the grandfatherly type anymore.
45:17He was angry. He was bitter. He was hostile, and when we left, he was really hostile. Like I said,
45:23he was turning on his own leaders at that point.
45:26Yes, I've given a quote somewhere, John, in our interviews where in one of his later messages,
45:32he's talking about church discipline and the fact that he doesn't play favorites, and he said,
45:39I would even, he didn't use the word kick out. I think it was put out. I would put out even my
45:46wife and daughter if they are contrary to the word of God. And, you know, what Christian minister,
45:53what pastor would ever stand up there and say that about your lovely dear wife? You know,
45:59maybe your daughter, but not your wife. You don't make comments like that. That is just,
46:05you know, that is a Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal comment for anybody to make. And when you hear that,
46:11you know, something is not right with this man, he is angry. He's angry. Things are not working out
46:20in his life. Things are not working out in the church. He's got critics. They're abounding. He's
46:26got people dying. The media is after him. The state legislature is after him. And rather than humble
46:32himself, there was an alternative. He could humble himself and seek God and turn his face to God,
46:39and God would have worked everything out for him in his life. That was an alternative he had,
46:44but he chose to go even harder, make things as hard as he possibly could for people and just make
46:52them hard on himself. And it's too bad he made that choice. Yeah, it is. And, you know, based on what
46:59you said about, like the autopsy results and the kind of pain he must have been in, I ended my career
47:10actually at the Cleveland Clinic working with chronic pain patients. And pain changes people.
47:17And I'm sure that that had an effect on him as well. It just, it saps you of your personality and
47:25your energy. And so I can imagine when he had all of this, not that I'm making excuses for him,
47:32because there is no excuse. All of these things bombarding him on all sides. He must have been
47:39very desperate and lonely. And John and I have said the same thing, Liz, and we're not trying to make
47:45excuses, but we are trying to process what happened and what went wrong. And I think this is part of it.
47:54I wasn't a member. I was never a member of the Glory Barn or a faith assembly. So I wasn't there
48:00as the other people were. But last summer, I had a couple of good conversations on the phone with
48:06Jerry Irvin, who was, you know, Dr. Freeman's main song leader. So he saw Dr. Freeman all the time and
48:14not much outside of church. No one saw him outside of church except June. But at least he had dealings
48:20with him before and after services because he was the main worship leader. And Jerry told me,
48:27because I asked Jerry, I said, Jerry, what was Hobart like there at the end? And he said,
48:33Hobart was really angry all the time. And even Jerry said, he said, I think he was mad because I think he
48:42was hurting. He said, he said, I think he was in pain. And I think he was in pain because of his
48:48diabetes. So he was physically not feeling well. And that began to affect him mentally. And you know,
48:56he had taken this live, die, sink or swim, I'm going to trust him kind of approach. He always quoted
49:03Job, though he slay me, yet will I trust him. That was a favorite verse to use for, you don't go to
49:10the doctors, even down to death's door, you keep believing God. And whenever you take that approach,
49:18you know, guess what, you've painted your whole room and backing up the whole time. And now you're
49:24in a corner and you can't, you can't get out of the room. One time that I was there, I visited
49:30occasionally, you know, once a year, twice a year, skip a year. But somewhere in the early 80s, 81 or 82 or
49:3983, I was in line, as other people were to get to talk to Hobart after a message, there was always
49:47a long line to talk to him. And, and I saw him, I never, I had not, because I wasn't a member, I
49:55didn't get to experience things like this. So it was new and shocking to me. But I saw him scream or
50:01yell at someone to do this or don't do that. I don't even remember what it was, because it caught me by
50:07surprise. I just was expecting a pastor, a Christian minister to be loving and kind and patient. Those
50:16are qualifications required in a Christian minister. And is it difficult? Sure, it's difficult. But that's
50:24part of the calling. You don't get to yell and holler at someone when you get mad. But he did. And it was a
50:32big red flag to me. That was something that I saw that I didn't have to base on secondhand, thirdhand,
50:39tenthhand report. I saw myself. And I wondered if I saw that. And if it happened right now, is this the only
50:48time that has ever happened? And according to Jerry, it wasn't. Because he would be upset with Jerry over
50:56things. And, you know, it's like the frog in the warm water and the pot on the stove. It just slowly
51:03increases the temperature in your life. And you don't recognize what's happening around you. And I
51:09think that was true for so many people there. I'm curious, after you began working as a counselor,
51:15did you come in contact with several other people who had been in cults and were re-victimized?
51:20Not a lot. More what I saw was, it was a Christian practice that I worked at when I was in private
51:31practice. And I worked with a lot of women who just, they were bored with their lives. And it was
51:41this mindset, they were conservatives. And it was the mindset of, you know, I'm supposed to just hang
51:49out at home and take care of the house and have babies. And I would always challenge that. Where
51:54is that coming from? So even the subtle things. I'm a complementarian, so I'm not one of the fringe
52:02people. But I would always challenge them. Where are you getting that? Show me chapter and verse.
52:10Where are you getting that? And it just became a passion of mine to challenge women to have a genuine
52:19faith. And that was actually part of my ministry for a number of years. Left private practice and
52:28went on to the clinic. But it's not even the cult thinking. It's the small subtleties of just being in
52:40a certain kind of mindset. And I see that a lot now with all this emotional stuff. You know, I'm going to sit
52:49here in this room until I hear from God. Well, you're gonna be there a long time.
52:54Good luck.
52:55Yeah, you want to hear from God, read your Bible.
52:58Well, if you couldn't tell, I was very much holding back. And if you see the other one, and again, I think it
53:05comes out before this, where the lady mentioned that she was dealing with counseling and mental
53:10health. I totally hijacked her podcast. I was trying very hard not to hijack this one. But
53:15I did have that question, because one of the problems that exists when you're in a cult is
53:20because, like I said, you're trying to fill this void. If you leave the cult and you're able to break
53:25away, now you have, again, a void that you have to fill inside of you. And many people sadly get
53:31re-victimized into other groups. So it was just my own curiosity. I didn't mean to distract. But
53:37anyway, this has been great fun. Cheno, do you have anything else?
53:41Well, I just wanted to say, Liz, I really appreciate connecting with you. After first hearing of you
53:4744 years ago, I never dreamed that one of these ex-faith assembly people from 44 years ago would
53:55actually be on our podcast. And I just appreciate where you are in your life now, that you went to
54:04seminary. You've really come to understand that it is all about a proper hermeneutic. And God does
54:13speak to us, but he does speak to us through his word. And that's the imperative for all of us. We
54:19really do need to read and to study God's word.
54:21Well, thank you so much again for doing this.
54:24Well, John and Cheno, thanks for having me on and letting me share my story. I hope it's
54:29encouraging to somebody out there who might be struggling to know that you can get through
54:34this and come out stronger on the other side. So take care, guys.
54:38If you've enjoyed our show and you want to share your story, you can check us out on the web.
54:42You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic
54:47Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR. Available on
54:53Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
55:17And share my screen with you in the rightях of fear. And that's why I didn't need to MKz.com. And bet them to see modify.
55:27We don't need to see Chi Audible as a humanahn. And that's why we have co-opted up in marriage of life. And that's why I mean touriya.
55:32We don't need to hire someone to be in those familiar games. We can check in line with that one- migrants.
55:34Gee, these 5 fans are kami-10, contingent of shorter and easier than 700 years. And that's who I'm thinking of Bonnie signed
Comments