- 5 days ago
John invites Lexi to share her story about attending Christ for the Nations Institute (CFNI), including her background, her experience with dating culture at the school, and the broader belief systems promoted within the institution. As the conversation unfolds, Lexi reveals the intense pressure placed on students to find spouses, the gender-based moral burdens, and the sense of scrutiny that dominated student life. John relates these patterns to his own past in similar religious environments, drawing attention to shared authoritarian features and the psychological toll they take on young people.
As the discussion deepens, they explore CFNI’s strong emphasis on Israel, its uncritical admiration of Gordon and Freda Lindsay, and bizarre teachings involving prophecy, aliens, and dinosaurs. Lexi provides examples of theological inconsistencies and the presence of fringe ideas taught without context or explanation. Together, they examine how historical connections to older revivalist and fringe movements—particularly William Branham and the Christian Identity movement—still influence CFNI’s culture today. The conversation also highlights the emotional impact of these systems on students who sacrifice everything to attend, only to find disillusionment, confusion, and few real-world opportunities when they leave.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Lexi’s background and CFNI experience
03:00 Dating rules and gender control at CFNI
07:00 John’s parallels from Branhamism
12:00 How CFNI shaped unhealthy views of men and women
13:00 The strange obsession with Israel and prophetic symbolism
16:00 Gordon Lindsay’s links to Christian Identity and early cult roots
21:00 Internal contradictions and dissenting teachers at CFNI
27:00 Deconstructing faith and learning to trust your own judgment
33:00 Control, conformity, and the us-versus-them mentality
35:00 The Seven Mountains doctrine and political radicalization
40:00 Alien theology, Nephilim myths, and hidden esoteric teachings
44:00 Hero worship of Gordon and Freda Lindsay
47:00 How cult mechanisms repeat across generations
53:00 Lexi’s reflections on exploitation and false hope
57:00 Closing thoughts and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
As the discussion deepens, they explore CFNI’s strong emphasis on Israel, its uncritical admiration of Gordon and Freda Lindsay, and bizarre teachings involving prophecy, aliens, and dinosaurs. Lexi provides examples of theological inconsistencies and the presence of fringe ideas taught without context or explanation. Together, they examine how historical connections to older revivalist and fringe movements—particularly William Branham and the Christian Identity movement—still influence CFNI’s culture today. The conversation also highlights the emotional impact of these systems on students who sacrifice everything to attend, only to find disillusionment, confusion, and few real-world opportunities when they leave.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Lexi’s background and CFNI experience
03:00 Dating rules and gender control at CFNI
07:00 John’s parallels from Branhamism
12:00 How CFNI shaped unhealthy views of men and women
13:00 The strange obsession with Israel and prophetic symbolism
16:00 Gordon Lindsay’s links to Christian Identity and early cult roots
21:00 Internal contradictions and dissenting teachers at CFNI
27:00 Deconstructing faith and learning to trust your own judgment
33:00 Control, conformity, and the us-versus-them mentality
35:00 The Seven Mountains doctrine and political radicalization
40:00 Alien theology, Nephilim myths, and hidden esoteric teachings
44:00 Hero worship of Gordon and Freda Lindsay
47:00 How cult mechanisms repeat across generations
53:00 Lexi’s reflections on exploitation and false hope
57:00 Closing thoughts and resources
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Lexi Sanchez, former
00:46member of Christ for the Nations.
00:49Lexi, it's good to finally have you on.
00:51I've been dying to get more people from Christ for the Nations, CFNI as other people label
00:57it.
00:57But there's just so much going on.
01:00We've been talking about the things going on with Vance Belter, and now the news media's
01:04investigation into CFNI.
01:06And I kind of really labeled that as irrelevant to the whole conversation.
01:13The deeper conversation is how did CFNI sway American Christianity into basically what
01:20became the NAR, the New Apostolic Reformation, and why did it do it, and what was behind
01:25the motivations.
01:26And for me to piece together all of that puzzle, I need more input from people who were involved
01:32with Christ for the Nations.
01:33So welcome to the podcast.
01:35Maybe if you could tell everybody just a little bit about yourself.
01:38Yeah, awesome.
01:39I'm super excited to be here.
01:41Thanks for inviting me.
01:42Yeah, my name is Lexi Sanchez.
01:44I'm originally from Houston, Texas.
01:47Moved down up here to Dallas 10 years ago now.
01:50So I went to CFNI in 2015.
01:53I was freshly 18 years old.
01:57And yeah, I've been here ever since.
01:59Um, I graduated from CFNI, um, in 2018, and I worked there for two years, and then I left.
02:12And since then, I've just been doing, um, full-time photography with my husband, who I also met
02:19at CFNI.
02:20Um, and yeah, I haven't been working in ministry since I left.
02:27I was working briefly at a church, um, after I left CFNI, but the church had a very, has a very strong
02:36relationship to CFNI, so it's a lot of the same beliefs and kind of ways of thinking, and, um,
02:44so it just, just wasn't for me anymore.
02:47So my husband and I left kind of shortly after that.
02:51Um, but yeah, so that's, that's all I can think to say.
02:55So I'm interested to hear specifically about those beliefs, and I know, I understand you
03:00have a much broader story, so maybe at some point in the story you can go into this, but
03:06wanting people to understand the difference between CFNI, what it teaches, and what broader
03:12Christianity teaches.
03:14Yes.
03:14So that's, that's really, honestly, when you said you're coming on board, and you, um, you
03:19mentioned that you were with Christ for the Nations originally, I wanted to know more about
03:24that, so.
03:25Yeah.
03:25So maybe as you tell your story, you can inject that, but, so you met your husband at Christ
03:30for the Nations, and tell us what that was like.
03:33What was, what was dating like at CFNI?
03:36What, tell us the whole story.
03:37We, so I have, um, two friends, they were my roommates, and we're still, they're like
03:44my best friends in the whole world, um, and we all met our husbands there, and we all say
03:51that we are survivors.
03:52Like, if your relationship can make it out of, like, if you can make it out of, if your
03:56relationship can make it out of CFNI, you're good.
03:59You are, you're, you can make it anywhere, because just the, the pressure, and there's
04:06this joke that they have at Christ for the Nations, where, um, they call it, uh, Brides
04:13for the Nations, and it's so weird.
04:17Like, when you're there, you already kind of feel weird about it.
04:19At least I felt weird about it.
04:20I thought, I really didn't like that, and there's a lot of pressure to, like, find your
04:25spouse when you're there, and it's, it's really icky.
04:29And, um, but at the same time, the rules that they have around dating are very rigid
04:37and impossible, honestly.
04:41Um, and I do feel like they treat women very harshly in those environments, too.
04:48There's a lot of pressure on women to don't make the boys, you know, sin, or don't make
04:54them lust.
04:55It's all the pressure on the girls.
04:56You have to make sure you're wearing shirts that cover your, that are long enough to cover
04:59your bottom, because God forbid, if a man sees your, your butt, like, that's, even if
05:05you're wearing jeans.
05:06Um, so it's, it was a lot of pressure, but, um, my husband and I started dating, I think
05:14it was my third semester.
05:18Uh, we had been friends since my first semester, um, but we hadn't hung out too much, but we
05:23kind of started hanging out more, just with, like, groups of friends and things like that.
05:27Um, and we realized we like each other, and I feel our perspective of relationships was
05:34a lot different than other Sif and I's perspectives.
05:38Like, we had a bit more, I guess, like, we weren't like, oh, marriage is this thing, and
05:48it's, you know, God put us together, and he chose us to be together.
05:53Cause there's a lot of that there, which on its own is very unhealthy and just not good.
06:00Um, and it shows cause yeah, relationships are usually from Sif and I don't do very well
06:07because it's, there's a lot of just unrealistic ways of thinking and just mystical thinking
06:12that just, it's not good for the real world, like the material world.
06:16Um, but my husband and I were very like, honest, like, okay, like, we know with the relationship
06:23you know, you have to work on these things, be honest with each other.
06:26And honestly, it, I feel like we are really lucky.
06:30We always say that we found each other on hard mode because of the environment we were
06:34in, but, um, yeah, I, I feel like I wouldn't have been able to kind of untangle all the wires
06:44from the situation and like from where we were without him.
06:49Like, he definitely helped me work through that.
06:51I think that we, us being there for each other, we were able to like work through a lot of
06:58the stuff that we experienced, like talk through that.
07:00Like I, our first year of marriage, it was like, we would just go on walks around the
07:05Sif and I, uh, track outside.
07:08And we would just like talk about what we were, cause we were reading a lot too and trying
07:12to understand, um, our beliefs and believe the system that we were under and, you know,
07:18the history, church history and, you know, what it means for us now where we're living,
07:23like in America and in the world we are.
07:25Um, and I'm just really grateful.
07:29I had him, um, but yeah, dating at Sif and I was, was a lot of pressure and there's always
07:37like, people are always like, Ooh, are you guys holding hands?
07:41Oh, are y'all doing this?
07:42And it just was just so weird.
07:44And it just didn't feel very, I don't know.
07:49It was very hard.
07:50I will say, but we made it, we survived.
07:52Um, we've been married almost six years now, so we're doing all right.
07:58We're doing all right.
07:59Yeah.
08:00It was, it was, it was tough.
08:01I will say it was tough.
08:02You're describing my childhood and the funny part is if you're female listening to this
08:08and you've never experienced this, you're thinking, Oh my gosh, how this is, this is
08:12horrific and the women have it so much harder than men.
08:15Well, I can assure you that that same environment is just as hard in some ways, maybe more difficult
08:21for the men because of what it does to the heads of the men.
08:25We, so picture what you said about covering the bud.
08:30We had the same thing.
08:31You weren't, you know, it was the women's fault.
08:32If, if a guy looks at you, it's her fault.
08:35She looked that you looked at her, right?
08:37But they took it a step further to the ankles.
08:40You cannot look at the women's ankles and the brandism.
08:44And so you're stuck with all of that weirdness, but dating was, it was difficult to navigate
08:50because there were different levels of, I'm just going to use the word destructiveness
08:55that the groups had.
08:57One group that I visited, they took it so far that when you were dating, a female could
09:03not travel in a vehicle with a male.
09:07As weird as this sounds, we, so after church, we were all going to go out to eat.
09:12There were, gosh, I want to say that there were eight or nine guys and two girls all going
09:19to go out to eat.
09:20Well, they all had to ride in my vehicle.
09:22All the guys had to ride in my vehicle and I had this little sports car.
09:26So we were crammed in, people laying across people.
09:30And the, one of the females driving had a big Lincoln Continental, I think it was.
09:37And so she could have fit the whole party in her vehicle, but we couldn't ride there.
09:40So here I am, we literally had a guy laying across from front to back with his feet in
09:47the dash and his head in the back console.
09:51That's how bad it was.
09:52And you don't really think about what that does to the man's head, but picture being a
09:58man telling them that they cannot look at the parts of a female body because specific parts
10:04God created as evil for you to look at.
10:07And then think about what that does in making the men wiring their brain to objectify women.
10:15That's essentially what happens.
10:17And it is, it is terrible.
10:19And it takes a long, long time for men who escaped us to get over it.
10:23Completely.
10:24And I mean, I've had that conversation with my brother and my husband, my, um, about just
10:31the way that it, it alienates the way like men think.
10:35And like, it makes, so an example, kind of speaking to what you're saying, like I had
10:40a friend, um, who, one of the reasons why I went to Christ for the Nations was there's,
10:45um, like a childhood friend from home who, um, started going there a semester or I'm sorry,
10:52a year before I did.
10:54And he was like a big brother to me.
10:56He was, he was a bit older than me.
10:57And, um, but he was one of the worst leaders.
11:00So he was like someone that was really close to my family.
11:03And, um, he was like, he was like family.
11:05And, um, so him and I, whenever I, I started going to Christ for the Nations, we would hang
11:10out a lot because, you know, I'm just turned 18.
11:13I'm living in a new city.
11:15This is the only person I know.
11:16And this is someone that I look to like a brother.
11:18And so, you know, we would like, he would like walk with me to the cafeteria or we would
11:23like hang out often and, um, he would like take me to play like, oh, there's this event
11:28going here.
11:28I'll take you.
11:29Um, I'll take you in your roommates.
11:31And people would be like, oh, are you guys together?
11:34Oh, there's, because there was no way that a boy and a girl could be friends in that situation
11:39because, oh, guys have to automatically want to pursue this person.
11:46And I think that is really hard on men.
11:48And I think we, we do see a lot of, you know, what we see, um, just like harmful behaviors
11:55because men aren't, you know, they don't know how to have, um, these relationships with women
12:02and they don't really know how to understand themselves because they're not really allowed
12:06to learn how to understand themselves.
12:09Um, but yeah, I just wanted to add to what you're saying in that.
12:13Yeah.
12:13It's a crazy, crazy world.
12:15So dating was much like what we had, which is honestly, that's kind of what I expected
12:20because what we had came from the same root as what you had.
12:26It just, you know, developed in completely different directions, which is odd.
12:30And there's some history around why that is, but what other things would you say was really
12:35unusual or odd about Christ for the Nations?
12:38There was a couple of things.
12:39Um, I guess the dating thing was like very strange.
12:45Um, something else that I, I felt like I wasn't really able to understand until, um,
12:52I watched some of your videos with the history of William Branham and like learning more about
12:56Gordon Lindsay was the very odd relationship they have with Israel and the way they treated
13:03is so strange.
13:05So I grew up, um, in a household that was very, um, like guys, you, you got to support
13:13Israel no matter what.
13:14Like we love Israel.
13:16Israel's their number one, their number one.
13:18Um, and so I, I had like my own kind of beliefs, but like, that's something I grew up believing.
13:24And, um, so when I went to Sifnai, it like, wasn't, it's not like I had never seen that
13:30before, but I felt like the, it was brought up to a degree that was just so bizarre.
13:37And, um, if like you could walk into a room and it was like, just like Israeli flags everywhere.
13:44And it was almost, it felt at the time kind of like a weird Orientalism, like this obsession
13:50with it.
13:51And I, I don't know, it just was something that I was like, I don't know what's going
13:56on here.
13:57Like you guys, y'all love this place.
13:59And then, um, for mission trips, so they had mission trips every summer.
14:05Um, and you could go to different places.
14:07I went to, I did two mission trips, my time there.
14:10You have to do a mission trip to graduate.
14:13That's one of the kind of, um, I guess like you get like credits for it.
14:19It's like one of the summer credits you get.
14:20Um, so you go to all these different places, but, um, and so whenever they're promoting
14:28like, okay, we're going to go here and we're going to go here.
14:30They would have people go up and talk and it would be like a five minute thing.
14:34But for Israel, it was a whole 30 minutes and it turns out it's not even like a mission
14:40trip.
14:40It's like a vacation that you go on and they make it seem like, oh, we're going to go
14:44here and we're going to do this and do that.
14:47And then it just, it's just so strange.
14:51And also it just feels like they don't really understand Judaism at all, at all.
14:58And it's, it just feels strange.
15:00It feels like it's like this magical place that they're disconnected from its history.
15:03They're disconnected from the people's history.
15:06It's, that was my experience.
15:08That's how I saw it.
15:09Um, but yeah, that was, that was another thing that I felt was just strange.
15:15Um, when I was there, you're not alone.
15:18It is odd.
15:19And I have not, I intend to take a deeper dive into that.
15:23I have not yet because I'm trying to think through very clearly how to present it in a
15:28way that people will understand the first time I tried it.
15:32I did not think strategically and people just didn't, they fully didn't get what I was trying
15:37to say, but in a broad, you know, five minute overview, Gordon Lindsay, who founded Christ
15:43for the Nations was a key speaker in Christian identity conferences.
15:48These are the people that hate the Jews.
15:51They hate the Jews.
15:53So when you think of Christ for the Nations being supportive of Israel and you think of
15:57Gordon Lindsay speaking in a group of men and an, with a group of men and an audience
16:02who hates the Jews, you think, well, how does that work?
16:05That doesn't fit.
16:07And then you think of William Branham.
16:08William Branham was the same way they were, they were hand in hand.
16:12Gordon Lindsay was his campaign manager and Branham was supportive of Israel.
16:17How is this possible?
16:18Branham is teaching the core doctrines of Christian identity, the serpent seed doctrine where Eve
16:25mated with the serpent and produced this bad bloodline versus this good bloodline.
16:30Well, the bad bloodline, according to Christian identity, is the Jews.
16:33So how can you be supportive of Israel?
16:36But you have to understand, supportive doesn't mean that you are in favor of.
16:42They're supportive in the Jewish agenda because, number one, if you include Israel in the agenda,
16:50you are including all of the doomsday scenarios that was presented in latter rain.
16:58Israel is where this is going to keep your eye on Israel because this is where it's going
17:01to happen.
17:04They look for these prophecies.
17:04I may have mentioned some of these, but they look for like the red heifer prophecy.
17:08If you can find somebody who has a heifer that is red, oh my gosh, the end of the world is
17:13coming.
17:14I remember when this happened.
17:15This happened, I want to say it was 1993 or 4.
17:20It made news and it was just like this little news blip that a red heifer has been found
17:26in Israel.
17:27Well, in the cult churches, it's like, the end of the world is coming.
17:30Get your kids and sons and daughters ready.
17:32It's coming.
17:33And they'll look at planet alignments, all kinds of weird things.
17:37It's because they're looking for Israel to be the signpost for the destruction in the
17:42coming end of days.
17:43And they picture Israel to be fully slaughtered.
17:47So they're supportive of this people that they feel sorry for that they're going to be
17:51just fully slaughtered.
17:52They believe it's going to be fully destroyed in divine judgment, all of this nonsense.
17:59When Branham was preaching the quote unquote gospel, and if I remember correctly, it was the
18:05same years Lindsay was involved with him.
18:07I'd have to go back and double check that.
18:09But Branham taught that all of Israel was not the target of the gospel.
18:16He said the gospel was never intended for the Jews.
18:19He says something to the effect there will be some renegades who might break away from
18:24Israel and accept the gospel.
18:25Renegades who might accept the gospel.
18:27But that's the way that this movement viewed the Jews.
18:30It wasn't that they viewed them as their Christian brothers or even potential converts.
18:35It was that this was the slaughterhouse.
18:37Let's watch for the slaughter because Armageddon will soon come after this.
18:42Yeah.
18:42And if it like you're saying like that, that idea of, okay, we need to make sure that all
18:48the Jews go back to Israel.
18:50Like that's something that they taught like, oh, this, it has to happen because, and then
18:54it feels like it's a doomsday cold.
18:56It's like, what?
18:57Like, what are we doing?
18:59Um, oh, I had a thought.
19:01I just lost it.
19:03But, um, I, that we did have a teacher that I felt, um, he taught Old Testament.
19:11Um, it was called the Old Testament surveys, like one of the classes.
19:14So, but he, um, was a Jewish man who I think he was a rabbi or something.
19:18Um, and I remember people would say like, oh, he doesn't get along with these people.
19:23Like he, and it's, I'm in my mind.
19:25I'm thinking it's probably because they have such wildly bearing beliefs.
19:28Like he, you know, believes his own things.
19:31And, and I will say a good thing that I experienced at Christ for the nations was, I feel like,
19:37like the head, like the people in charge kind of had like their beliefs and they had some
19:42people who believed, um, similar things that worked for them that would teach and stuff.
19:49But for the most part, you could meet people who believed very different things in those
19:53spaces.
19:54Um, I mean, for example, like me and my husband, like we had kind of like our own beliefs and
19:59like, we didn't agree with like, even me, like as a kid, I was like, I don't really know
20:04if I agree with some of these things, but you kind of meet that a lot.
20:08And there's even like teachers who were like, oh, this teacher says this, but I don't
20:12really agree with him.
20:13I think this, and that was kind of nice to see.
20:16I feel like that helped me a lot.
20:18Um, kind of fit, like it kind of validated me a little bit and like the way that I was
20:24like, okay, well, I don't also believe that.
20:26And I guess that's kind of okay.
20:28Um, but I will say between like the students, there was a lot of, oh, you don't agree with
20:34this teacher says, do you think you're better than him?
20:36Do you think you know better than him?
20:38And it was a lot of like, well, he's got put them in charge of us.
20:42So we have to agree with them.
20:44And I'm like, they don't even agree with each other.
20:47So what, why are we expected to just accept everything?
20:51But, um, but yeah, it, it is weird and disappointing.
20:56And, and I feel like there was a lot of the celebrating of, um, oh, we love, you know,
21:02uh, Judaism and the Jewish beliefs and blah, blah, blah.
21:06And, but then you talk to someone, they don't know anything.
21:08Like they don't actually know history.
21:12They don't know, you know, their values.
21:14They don't know, um, practices, like just simple things, you know, it's, it's, it's just
21:21strange, but, um, but yeah, I did back to saying what I was saying before.
21:25I do, I think something that was kind of good that I experienced at Christ of the Nations
21:30was, um, the way that there were, there was space at times for, you know, dissenting beliefs.
21:39Um, I remember there was this one teacher, so they, at Christ of the Nations, they love
21:45Martin Luther, love him, love him.
21:49And this is one of my favorite things that ever happened.
21:52But, um, on October, I guess October 31st is the Reformation day.
21:57Um, um, and they had like this big celebration, um, and they had like speakers go up and stuff.
22:04And there's this one teacher we have who he only taught one class, which is criminal because
22:10he is incredible.
22:12But, um, he went up there to talk a little bit about the history of Martin Luther.
22:16And he goes, oh yeah, guys, by the way, he was anti-Semitic.
22:21He said all, he was going through the history and like everyone in the room was just like,
22:27like really uncomfortable.
22:28And I was like, thank goodness, thank goodness someone is saying it.
22:32But, um, no, uh, that guy was really cool.
22:36Um, he taught, I think, um, like history of religions and like different beliefs and stuff.
22:43And he did it from a place that wasn't like, oh, they're evil.
22:47Like, ooh, they're spooky and they think differently than us.
22:50But it was like, okay, here's like historically how these beliefs came to be.
22:54Here's actually some of like the historical connections between these beliefs and like
22:58how some of these things like leaked into each other.
23:00And I thought that was really cool, but yeah, shout out to that guy.
23:04I think about him all the time.
23:06Yeah.
23:07There were a few people who tried to buck the system and Branhamism and they weren't really
23:12able to see it diverged.
23:14And it created two different pathways of two different, um, types of groups with Christ for
23:20the nations, whenever Lindsay was working with Branham, it was this mentality that we have
23:26a great movement with all of these hundreds of ministers, each doing their own thing.
23:32And for a period of time that worked out, but they had an open theology.
23:36And what I mean by that is one guy could preach something that was completely against the core
23:43belief system of another guy.
23:45And this was allowed, even they even had an article describing what happens when this is
23:51the case.
23:52But in, you know, especially during the Southern states in that era, you, you would have guys
23:57that say, wait, them's fighting words.
23:59They would go off at it.
24:01And that's, that's the way it was.
24:03Well, eventually there was fights that kind of broke out, maybe not fistfights, but they
24:09would, they would really get against each other.
24:12Whenever Branham was, um, when, when he was really cut off by most of the denominations,
24:18AOG cut him off early, but some of the others followed after.
24:22And whenever he started to get sanctioned, that's when things really begin to change.
24:26Because when you sanction now all of the money that flows through those different
24:31groups, when the money's cut off, it changes, sadly, the, a lot of the things in Christianity
24:38that this was built on top of.
24:39So Lindsay kind of shifted directions.
24:42Well, Branham becomes isolated and it became an isolationist cult.
24:45But Lindsay became more of a, I don't know what the, what the word is.
24:49He tamed down quite a bit.
24:51He may have even reformed quite a bit, but some of the core belief systems, like what you're
24:56describing, he did not reform from this at all.
24:59And this is, this is literally, if you watch a movie or a documentary on what it's like
25:05living in a cult, everything that you've described in Christ for the Nations is what
25:09they describe.
25:10So how do you, how do you reconcile that?
25:13And that's, that's part of the, you know, part of the reason I've been wanting to have
25:16more people on because people aren't aware that this is still going on at Christ for the
25:21Nations.
25:21Yeah.
25:22And I don't know.
25:23I think it was kind of hard.
25:27Like if you would have told me this, like when I was at Christ for the Nations, like a
25:32student, like a little, like a little 19 year old, like, see, I feel like, nah, it's, it's
25:36not like that.
25:36It's not that bad.
25:37But I feel like the more and more I started kind of like educating myself more, um, even
25:46just wanting, cause I've always kind of been, I guess, curious is the best word.
25:52Like I've always wanted to like know more.
25:53And, um, I grew up Christian.
25:55My parents were youth pastors.
25:57Um, and my, my mom and dad were like, they really got me to like read the Bible for myself
26:05and things like that.
26:06Um, but also I read a lot, I was really interested in history.
26:09So I read a lot of like things outside of just like biblical literature.
26:15So I feel like that helped a lot of kind of like understanding different ways of thinking
26:21and so already like going into Christ for the Nations, I kind of wasn't like my, my worldview
26:29wasn't so narrow.
26:30I guess I could say like, it wasn't just to the bubble of like, I, I know church world
26:35and that's it.
26:36Like, I feel like I kind of had a little bit of an understanding of things outside of my
26:41world.
26:42And I feel like that helped, um, whenever like little like alarms were kind of going off,
26:48I'd be like, okay, this feels weird.
26:49Um, it kind of helped me work through that.
26:52And I think also, um, having friends outside of that world helped a lot too.
26:58Um, but I think I, since I've been out of Safe Nigh, I love learning about different
27:07cults.
27:08And like, I watched so many documentaries about like other high control groups.
27:13Like me and my husband, we were obsessed with like learning about like the NXIVM case.
27:18And, um, I don't know if you've heard about that one, but, um, but just learning like
27:21the ways in which people who, how people can, what's the word I'm looking for?
27:28I think something I've learned is people don't trust themselves.
27:36They don't trust their guts.
27:38And that's something I saw a lot when I was there.
27:41Um, and I guess I can just thank my parents for this, but they, I would have like healthy
27:48disagreements with my parents.
27:49Sometimes not very healthy, but, um, like me and my dad sometimes would debate over like,
27:54uh, like end times theology, he would say this thing and I'd be like, dad, the rapture
27:59is not real.
28:00But I was like 16, like getting into these discussions with my dad, you know, but like
28:04they created a space for me to like disagree with him and to like trust what I was learning
28:10on my own.
28:11And, you know, also kind of be like, all right, have a little bit of, you know, uh, except
28:18maybe you can be wrong sometimes, you know?
28:20And so I feel like that was developed a little bit in me when I was younger.
28:25So when I went to Christ for the nations, um, I had a really good friend who like, she
28:31wouldn't do anything without getting advice from some of the teachers.
28:36I would try to give her advice and she'd be like, oh, well, I don't really know.
28:41I think I'm going to go talk to this teacher.
28:43And then she'd be like, okay, this teacher told me this, so I'm going to do it.
28:45And I was like, dude, I literally told you to do that.
28:48Like, that's exactly what I told you, but it was this thing of like, they, they feel
28:53like they have to have some kind of person who is like connected more to God than they
29:00are to tell them how to go about this and how to make these decisions.
29:06Um, and I feel like, because I didn't have that as much, I was able to kind of step back
29:14and at least it opened the door for me to do that.
29:18Um, it definitely took time.
29:20Like, I don't think I kind of fully realized like where I was and like what was happening
29:25until maybe I was like 23.
29:27Um, but, but yeah, um, I think that's one of the saddest things is, yeah, people just don't
29:36really trust themselves.
29:37They don't trust that, like, because there's this thing in the denomination I grew up in
29:43where it's like, you have to hear God for yourself.
29:45Like you have to learn how to hear the Holy Spirit yourself.
29:48And they kind of like brag about how that's something that they can do.
29:52But at the same time, like they don't actually pursue that.
29:55Like, I mean, for me, I don't, I have my own beliefs now and I, I don't really, I'm not
30:03very like spiritual anymore.
30:06Um, I'm kind of like, if you want to like figure out what to do with your life, you know,
30:11if you want to make decisions that you feel God would be proud of, just, I don't know,
30:15look at Jesus's life, things he valued, I guess.
30:17Like that could be something that could be a step.
30:19But, um, but yeah, it would just felt like a lot of people, they needed someone to tell
30:25them what to believe, what to do.
30:26Like, and so like we had like these figures, so there would be people who, even if they
30:33were kind of like well-meaning, I guess, um, just to be generous, um, they were, I was
30:40almost, there was a bit of cult personality around certain leaders and it was, there's
30:47to an unhealthy degree, I would say.
30:50Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
30:54modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic, and other fringe
31:00movements into the new apostolic reformation?
31:03You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,
31:08william-branham.org.
31:10On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
31:16Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
31:21audio, and digital versions of each book.
31:25You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
31:30movements.
31:31If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
31:36contribute button at the top.
31:38And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening
31:43to or watching.
31:44On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
31:48I'm of the firm opinion that many people who have gone through what, some call it deconversion,
31:55some call it, you know, some even go so far as call it losing their faith.
32:00I always go back and I think through the question, well, what did they have originally?
32:05This thing was called Christianity, but I can assure you if you consider what the Bible says
32:09is Christianity, these groups, many of them do not have it.
32:13So are they, if they're deconverting, which God are they deconverting from?
32:18So I'm one of the few people that I love whenever I get somebody who has a different opinion,
32:24especially somebody who has seen the dark side of these groups to come on and talk.
32:28And you see in the comment feeds, I get all kinds of flack for it because there's this
32:33mindset that everybody must be of the same opinion.
32:36And that opinion is the right and just way that people should live because it is my opinion.
32:44And I'm of the opinion that there are groups of diverse people who have different opinions
32:50and that's how the world works.
32:52Even within Christianity, the biggest shock for me came when I went to the first church
32:58that we went to after the cult.
32:59And they started talking about the revelation, the end of days scenario.
33:07And the minister was very, very strangely similar to what I believed in Branhamism, which shocked
33:13me.
33:14They had really taken it, I guess, probably through the same influence.
33:19I don't know how they got that.
33:20But I was talking to another guy who was, I think he was either the assistant pastor of one
33:25of the high up elders.
33:27And he was like, eh, I don't believe any of that, any of that thing that he said.
33:31And he went off into what he believed, which is what I thought mainstream Christian by and
33:35large believed.
33:37But then I had another person, also a ranking elder in the church, who gave me a different
33:42opinion than those two.
33:43And I'm like, how does that work?
33:45In the group that I grew up in, you had to have the same belief.
33:48You cannot have this variation because it's vitally important that you understand my belief
33:54and my understanding, because I'm right, the whole world is wrong, us versus them.
33:59It's always us versus them.
34:00Yeah.
34:00And so hearing your description of why you left, it kind of matches that.
34:08I have talked to other people, some who, for one reason or another, can't come on the
34:13podcast, who have left Christ for the Nations.
34:17And it's a very common theme.
34:20When you leave Christ for the Nations, many people go through this deconversion period.
34:24And how long that lasts is really up to the person.
34:28But it all comes back to the doctrines, which are very unhealthy, according to what they're
34:34telling me.
34:35And the difference between mainstream Christianity and what they're describing is that the Christian
34:42doctrines for mainstream Christianity are made in such a way to uplift people, to help
34:48people, support people, help one another grow.
34:51But what they're describing is very much like what I came out of.
34:54It's us versus them.
34:55It's very destructive.
34:57What are your thoughts on this?
34:59Would you consider it to be a destructive foundation or would you consider them to be
35:03more mainstream?
35:04I've been trying to think about this, too, because I do feel like it's a little bit of
35:08both.
35:09Like, there are definitely people who...
35:15Okay, how do I say this?
35:19Because they do have a lot of that mainstream where it's like...
35:22This is how you, you know, get deeper with God and things like that.
35:30And they teach the way that they feel like that's how you achieve that.
35:33Um, but a big thing, a big thing at Sif and I, too, is like, here's how to have a successful
35:40ministry.
35:41Here's how to be a pastor.
35:42And, um, and there's like a lot of that.
35:47But something that I feel that it's not necessarily often the teachers saying it themselves, but we
35:58have a lot of guest speakers that come, that get invited, that I feel, um, have a lot of
36:07us versus them kind of mentality.
36:10And, like, um, they have brought on, like, political people who straight up have said
36:18things like, um, we have to have more kids because Muslims are having a lot of kids, so
36:26we got to have more kids.
36:27And I remember I was taking notes and I was like, that's, that's bad.
36:31What are you saying right now?
36:33That's horrible.
36:34Um, and, like, the alarm bells were going off, you know?
36:37Um, I, there's a part of me that, like, wants to be, that's, I guess, because I grew up, um,
36:48in a lot of, like, those spaces, um, and, like, I've, like, I know them, so I'm, like, I don't
36:58feel like you are, like, perpetrating this thing.
37:03But, if I'm being honest, like, uh, the Seven Mountains, have you heard of, like, the Seven
37:09Mountains Doctrine?
37:11They love that.
37:12They love that.
37:14So, yeah, they're all about that.
37:17They are all about that.
37:18And I've even talked about, um, that with one of the teachers before, because he was
37:26talking about it with us and explaining it to us.
37:28And I remember being, like, thinking about the, the mountains, and I was, like, I feel
37:36like a lot of this, this belief, it reminds me of, like, when Jesus was tempted in the
37:41wilderness, and he was, like, he rejected all of those things.
37:44Like, I don't know why we're teaching this when we're, we saw Jesus reject these things.
37:51So, that's something that, I don't know.
37:57It's, I don't want to say it's, like, it's blatant, and it's, like, in your face.
38:05But I do, I do think that, like, it is there.
38:10For example, um, I feel like, I'm sorry, I'm trying to, like, think about how to explain
38:18this, so, I really feel like there are remnants of, um, the history of this ministry that still
38:26remain, um, for example, like, we had this class, um, that teaches, it's supposed to teach,
38:34like, Genesis, um, and they love talking about the Nephilim.
38:40It's, it's a thing, it's, it's a thing.
38:43But, um, there was this one time where the teacher said, he was talking about Machu Picchu,
38:48and he said something along the lines of, it couldn't have been these primitive people.
38:55They couldn't have been smart enough to make this.
38:57So, it had to be aliens or demons.
38:59And I remember being, like, dude, that's racist.
39:02You can't say that.
39:04That is so messed up.
39:05Like, how can you say, and, like, for example, my husband's Peruvian, and he's, like, no,
39:11we, we could do that.
39:12Like, we had mathematicians.
39:15We had incredible scientists.
39:16Like, what is he saying right now?
39:18So, there's a lot of, like, those remnants of beliefs that I feel like are there.
39:22And I don't think, I don't feel like it was blatant.
39:27But, like, if you, I feel like when you see, when you understand, like, what those beliefs
39:32are, you can see kind of, like, I don't want to call them dog whistles.
39:37But, like, you almost see, like, okay, I feel like what he's saying here has, is kind
39:44of coming from this place.
39:46Do you know what I mean?
39:48But I guess just to answer your question, I never felt like it was, like, a blatant, like,
39:52those people out there, you know.
39:56But those beliefs definitely were held by peers that you would see.
40:01Or, like, people you would talk to in the cafeteria and, you know, they would say things,
40:06you'd be like, oh, that's not good, y'all.
40:08That's not good.
40:10But, yeah, it's, yeah.
40:14You definitely see, like, moments where those things kind of, like, leak out.
40:20And when you see it, it is disturbing, for sure.
40:24Yeah, what you're describing is exactly what I was expecting.
40:26I didn't want to push you to openly say that.
40:30I wanted to see what you felt.
40:32But what they're doing, so the Christian Identity Core Doctrine included an alien component.
40:39The alien component was that out in the outer reaches of space was your celestial body, and
40:46one day the UFOs would come back and you'd be swept up.
40:50Gordon Lindsay himself had a number of books on UFOs, which tells you what the foundation
40:55of this doctrine was.
40:57And they teach that, but they don't openly teach it because it sounds crazy.
41:03So what they do is they, usually you have to go through these stages of, they call it
41:08Christian maturity or spiritual maturity.
41:11What it essentially means is they want to feel out, are you going to think I'm crazy if
41:15I tell you the UFO stuff?
41:16That makes a lot of sense, honestly.
41:21Because we, yeah, we, it became a joke.
41:24Like some of my friends, my peers, we would joke about it like, oh man, we're going to
41:27this class.
41:28They're coming on aliens again.
41:29Like, and we would just be like, kind of, we like look at each other like, what in the
41:32world?
41:32And we just kind of like brush it off.
41:34But I feel like in retrospect, like looking back, I'm like, I was kind of messed up actually.
41:40Like, I don't think that was good.
41:42Now that I'm thinking about it.
41:43I mean, the doctrine itself is, it's just wacky.
41:46It's not, I love a good movie.
41:48Like Stargate is one of my favorite movies of all time, Stargate.
41:52So if they were preaching it in the context of, hey, we're all going to get together and
41:56we're going to talk about Stargate or we're going to pretend like we're in some sort of
42:01a fantasy world, that's totally different.
42:03I would be on board with that.
42:05But what they're trying to do is frame the biblical passages.
42:08If they can find one word that is just obscure enough that people can't understand what it
42:14means, that they can apply to this mystery doctrine, whatever it is they call it, then
42:20they'll push it and they'll try to say that that's what that passage means.
42:23The rest of the world doesn't know.
42:25But we, brothers and sisters, we have the secret knowledge.
42:30It's basically Gnosticism is what it is, essentially.
42:33We have the secret knowledge, the Gnosis.
42:34Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense.
42:37And yeah, another thing was they loved talking about dinosaurs.
42:45And they have a museum with dinosaur bones.
42:51And in your first semester, they take you, oh, I forget where it is in Texas.
42:55But it's like, it's like, it's like kind of like a creek.
42:58And they have, it's like where they had found like remains, like bones.
43:06I watched a documentary about it the other day about how like the Christian world, like
43:13actually like they obsessed over it.
43:16Like there was this pastor who was a businessman and the whole history of it is so weird.
43:20But they make us go, and he's like a young earther.
43:24So he, I don't know what the point of it was.
43:28I don't know, even because he doesn't, they didn't really teach anything scientific.
43:34I don't think they know that much anyway.
43:37So it just felt random.
43:39It just felt like, why are we doing this?
43:41But yeah, he, they have a museum with a bunch of like dinosaur bones.
43:44But I will say something that was really weird too, that I feel, I know this is kind of taking
43:55a little bit of a turn, but I feel like it will add a little bit, but in retrospect, after
44:03learning more about Gordon Lindsay's past and the history with William Branham, this disturbs
44:10me a lot, but they, they really, really elevate the Lindsay, Gordon and Frida, like they, like
44:21they're just these people, we have to learn all about their past and we have to read all
44:26their books, which also I thought I'd bring this Gordon Lindsay book.
44:30I still have this thing.
44:32I was reading it the other day and I was like, this is insane.
44:35This is, there's, there's some stuff in there.
44:38If you want it, I'll, I'll, I'll mail it to you if you want to, if you want it, so you
44:41don't have to buy it.
44:43I don't need this anymore.
44:44So I'll send it to you.
44:45But, um, but yeah, so they, which interesting enough, I'm like, they managed to read all
44:52these books about them.
44:52And I didn't know anything about the stuff that you were saying.
44:56Cause after I'd watched some of your videos, I went and was doing some research and I was
45:00like, Oh my gosh, like, this is like for real, like this, there's documents on this
45:05stuff and they don't say any of it.
45:07They don't tell us about any of it, but they want us to read all their books and people
45:12call her mama Lindsay and they, it's, it's weird the way they talk about it.
45:17And like, um, her bedroom that's on campus is like untouched.
45:23It, they haven't moved, like her closet's still there, her bed's still there.
45:28And when I was working there, they're like, we're going to turn into a museum.
45:30Um, and I'm like, girl, no one wants to go there to see that, but it's, it's very strange.
45:37And I think like knowing what they were up to back in the day, it may, it just like makes
45:43me feel so icky and I wish people knew more about this.
45:49Um, after whatever, everything that happened with, um, the shooter, um, I posted some stuff
45:55on my, on my Instagram talking about, um, just sharing some articles.
46:01Cause I still have a lot of people who were staff and are staff still that like follow
46:07me and stuff like that.
46:08And so I shared it and I was like, Hey, like you guys should do some research.
46:10Like this stuff doesn't just happen in a vacuum.
46:13Like we need to learn more about, you know, um, um, how things lead up and like how harmful
46:19beliefs can like leak into as good, like well intention and well meaning as we can be like
46:24these things can leak into things.
46:25Um, and a lot of people were messaging me like, dude, thank you so much.
46:31Like, I know so many people were like, ask me for your links and stuff.
46:34Cause it's just like, it's so helpful because we didn't know anything.
46:37Like they don't tell us anything.
46:39I don't even know if staff who like are there now know any of this stuff, but, um, yeah, all
46:46that to say it's the way they elevate them.
46:48It's just, it's like borderline.
46:51Like they like make them saints, you know, it's, it's strange.
46:55It's, it's, it's bizarre.
46:57Hero worship.
46:58So, so the interesting part of all of this is I was, I was hoping to build to a climax,
47:03but I didn't want to drive you there because I wanted people to watch you openly talk about
47:08it and go to the same place that I was headed.
47:11So Branham created this scheme to basically create cults.
47:17And there were several numerous, countless cults that spun off of this international house
47:22prayer in Kansas city, for example, was basically Branhamism 2.0 and think about the similarities.
47:29It has the hero worship.
47:31There is none greater than Mike Bickle.
47:33It has the prophetic history.
47:36When you come on board, you've got to know our history because that makes us better than
47:40the others.
47:41We're more special than the other groups because we have the prophetic history.
47:46And yet we have all of these secret things that we're not going to tell the outside world.
47:50When you come to our website, you're not going to know half the stuff that we stand for or
47:54believe.
47:55And what it essentially comes down to Dr. Stephen Hasson calls it the bite model of authoritarian
48:00control.
48:01It is the true signs and markings of a cult.
48:04Are they controlling your behavior?
48:06Which is something you've described.
48:08Are they controlling the information, are they concealing things, which is something you've
48:12described, are they controlling your thoughts and your emotions, which are things that you've
48:17described.
48:17So in this podcast, without even meaning to, or intending to, you have basically branded
48:23it as a cult.
48:24Actually, it's funny you bring up IHOP because we have our own version.
48:30It's called GLOP, Gordon Lindsay House of Prayer.
48:34Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
48:35The one thing that I do want to go back to, because it was weird to you, and it isn't
48:40weird to me at all, is the dinosaurs.
48:43Why the fascination with dinosaurs?
48:45There's everybody listening who hears this, they're thinking, well, scratching their head,
48:49why is that?
48:51If you understand Christian identity, they believe and taught, and I can't find Gordon Lindsay
48:58writing about this because they've destroyed all of his Christian identity books that he wrote.
49:02I'm assuming he believed it, too, if he was attending the conferences.
49:07The conferences that he attended in, I think it was Oregon, they believed that there was
49:14a race that pre-existed before the Garden of Eden, and they were the mud people.
49:19And Christian identity taught that whenever, you know, when the fall happened and they were
49:25banished from the garden, well, the good seed continued through Adam and his grandchildren,
49:32great-grandchildren.
49:32The bad seed mated with the mud people, which is why the black skin.
49:37And all of that would go back to the dinosaurs, which creates this fascination for anybody in
49:43Christian identity to understand the dinosaurs, because one day they're going to find that
49:47missing link, they're going to find that mud person, and all of this can be unraveled.
49:53That's crazy.
49:56And, wow, okay, that's very illuminating for me, because, yeah, there's, so we have,
50:05they have, like, multiple buildings, but one of them, you walk in, and immediately, it's just
50:09a giant dinosaur, like, boom.
50:11And then you go upstairs, and, like I said, he believes, they believe in, like, young earth
50:17and all that stuff, and so they have, like, these paintings of, like, king men, you know,
50:25and then there's, like, an empty museum.
50:28Like, they wanted to be a museum, but nobody wants to go, like, nobody's interested, but
50:32it's just, like, dinosaur bones and things like that.
50:35But now that you're saying that, that's so, that's crazy.
50:39Yeah.
50:39See, I didn't know any of that.
50:40But it makes sense, like, why they teach first semesters.
50:48They talk through all that stuff.
50:50That's crazy.
50:51Yeah, it's really interesting.
50:52See, I didn't know much of that.
50:54I knew that they believed in a race that preexisted, because Branham, in one obscure sermon, he talks
51:00about it.
51:01He talks about the race that preexisted, Adam, which, if you're a believer in what the Bible
51:06says, and you're sola scriptura, you're by the scripture alone, you can't believe this,
51:11because there is no precedent for mud people in the Bible.
51:14Yeah.
51:15But he says something weird, like, before Adam's race, there was another race with hands like
51:20monkeys and feet like bears or some weird thing, and he's essentially describing a drawing
51:26of the mud people that was passed out among the Christian identity circles.
51:30I saw it in one magazine.
51:32I can't remember which.
51:33But he's describing that, and that's kind of what they believed.
51:38But I was not familiar with any of that until I read Michael Barkun's book, Religion and the
51:43Racist Rite.
51:44If you want to know the true history of what you came from, that was actually what helped
51:49me understand that Gordon Lindsay was in that movement, because Barkun lays out the entire
51:56lineage of the Christian identity movement, and it passed through California and Oregon,
52:02and there were these massive, massive conferences.
52:06They were called the, I think they were the Anglo-Saxon Federation Conferences, and that's
52:12the one that Gordon Lindsay was speaking at.
52:14So this was a big, big deal.
52:16And Henry Ford of the Ford Motor Company was sponsoring and behind a lot of this.
52:20There's a lot of politics slash business tied into it.
52:25So there was a lot of, what that gives you is there was a lot of finances backing it.
52:30So this was a very profitable thing to be in, which is probably why, according to my opinion,
52:36why Gordon Lindsay was in it in the first place.
52:39We can make money doing this.
52:40But he seems to be impacted by the doctrine, because even after Christian identity started
52:45to diminish, he's still holding on to some of the doctrines.
52:49So if you read that book, Religion and the Racist Rite, you'll understand most of your
52:53heritage.
52:54Yeah, I'm going to look into it.
52:56And you're talking about like Oregon and his time over there.
53:01And I actually just like, we're kind of like, see if there's anything I was like missing
53:05from this book, like, that I forgot that might have been interesting.
53:10There's a whole section where he talks about him being in Oregon.
53:13And he doesn't mention any of those things at all.
53:18And I'm like, I guess that makes sense why he wouldn't do that.
53:22But that's, it's a lot.
53:25It's a lot.
53:26It's, and, and I think like something that I, that makes me kind of sad, like, in regard
53:35to all of this is, like, just how well-meaning a lot of the people who, like, go to CFNI
53:39and even, like, work there, like, there are people who give up their whole lives to go
53:44to Christ in the Nations.
53:46So I worked in admissions for a couple of months.
53:53I only lasted a few months.
53:55I had to get out of there.
53:56Because I feel like when you're a student, you see, you see things.
53:59But when you work there, you really see things.
54:02So I was working there for a few months, and then I got out.
54:04But I was doing admissions, and for a bit, I was working with international admissions.
54:13So I was working with, like, students who were coming from abroad.
54:17And people would talk about, like, yeah, I sold my house.
54:21I sold my car.
54:22I'm bringing all four of my kids and my wife, and we're coming.
54:26And I'm like, you're giving up everything to come to this school that, like, I mean, I've
54:35spent a lot of time here, but I don't think it's worth it.
54:38Like, giving up all and having to pay for visas, which aren't cheap.
54:42They're not cheap.
54:43Like, doing all the paperwork and then living in the housing that's there, which isn't the
54:49best.
54:50The food's not the best.
54:51And I mean, like, it's not.
54:53Dallas isn't fantastic.
54:54It's not a great place to live, I would say.
54:56But it's just people really, like, think that their life is going to change, like, when
55:04they come.
55:04And, like, there's, like, a slogan that Steve and I had for a long time where it was, like,
55:08where dreams find direction.
55:10And it makes me sad because I'm, like, people come here thinking that, like, they're going
55:16to find their purpose.
55:18Like, they come literally thinking, like, oh, God's going to do something so big.
55:22And, you know, oh, man, like, my life is going to be huge after this.
55:26Like, oh, my dreams are going to come true.
55:28Like, it's going to be crazy.
55:29I'm going to be this incredible person.
55:31And then it doesn't happen.
55:32And then people get really sad and disappointed.
55:35And I feel like it's what we saw with that guy, Vance.
55:37I don't remember his last name.
55:39But this thing of, like, this is what I need.
55:42Like, my life is going to take off from here.
55:44And it's anticlimactic.
55:46And I just think people get really disappointed and sad.
55:51Like, I don't know.
55:52I know a lot of people who gave up a lot because it's not cheap.
55:56The tuition is not cheap.
55:58People come and they give free labor also because one of the things you have to do for
56:03summer credits is you either have to go on a mission trip or you have to volunteer at
56:06a camp.
56:07You pay to work full-time job every single day.
56:12Like, you barely sleep.
56:13You barely, like, you work so much.
56:16And people are paying for it to do that.
56:19And I just feel like when people graduate or when they leave, they're like, well, what
56:24was the point?
56:25Like, nothing's changed.
56:27I mean, I don't even have skills to get a real job.
56:31Like, it's either I go into ministry or I don't do anything.
56:35And it's just, I don't know.
56:36It just makes me really sad because there really are people thinking that, like, something
56:42really incredible is going to happen or they think sometimes it's not even that selfish.
56:45Sometimes it's sort of like, I want to be a tool for the gospel.
56:49I want to give my life for this.
56:51And, like, I want to help people.
56:52Like, there are people who genuinely, they're all their heart.
56:55They want to, like, help others.
56:56And then they get here and they're like, I'm not able to do any of that.
57:01And it's just sad.
57:02It just makes me really sad.
57:04It is sad.
57:04It's basically, it's not helping further the gospel.
57:08It's helping further the organization.
57:10The bigger the numbers get, the better the organization looks.
57:13And let's attract the people.
57:14Let's get it bigger.
57:16It's bad.
57:17And back to Vance Belter.
57:19It isn't that they taught him to do what he did, but they have all of the makings.
57:24If you read Dr. Stephen Hassan's book, Combating Cult Mind Control, they have all of the makings
57:30to create a destructive group that can radicalize people.
57:35And when you radicalize a person, you radicalize them on the ideology, well, then the brain will
57:42sometimes go to the conclusions of how to enforce the ideology.
57:44So what he did may not have necessarily been taught at Christ for the Nations, but if he
57:50was radicalized, and he was radicalized by them, if that is the case, then they could
57:56have been responsible for what happened.
57:58And that's for the courts to decide, and I'm certain because no court in the United States
58:04really understands cult mind control, it'll probably never come out to be this.
58:09But when you examine it, it's sad because there are so many people that, like you said, give
58:14up everything to come join this.
58:16And in the end, what do they get?
58:18They get really nothing.
58:19So thank you so much for doing this.
58:22Oh, of course.
58:22Thank you for inviting me.
58:24Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the
58:27web.
58:27You can find us at william-branham.org.
58:30For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized
58:34Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
58:44Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
59:14Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
59:44Weaponized Religion from Christianพectic 2022 with the NAR.
59:46Weaponized Religion from Christianica Mendoize.
59:46Weaponized Religion from Christianаешьler
59:47the NAR.
59:48Weaponized Religion from Christian
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