- 3 months ago
John and Jed discuss the misuse of authority within modern religious movements, reflecting on their personal experiences growing up under high-control leaders. Jed shares his background as the son of a leader involved in the International House of Prayer, highlighting the emotional and psychological toll of living under strict doctrines and fear-based teachings. They explore the internal conflict of being raised in a system that strictly judged moral behavior—especially among youth—while offering grace and protection to those in positions of power who committed serious misconduct. This hypocrisy, they note, creates a culture where the powerful avoid accountability, and the vulnerable are left without justice or support.
The conversation shifts toward how movements such as the New Apostolic Reformation operate through networks of control and mutual protection. John and Jed trace how spiritual authority is often used to suppress victims and silence dissenters, even when allegations involve deeply harmful actions. They describe how internal loyalty, fear of losing influence, and the structure of charismatic leadership keep victims from being heard. They also reflect on attempts to reform these systems through compassion-centered justice, where the needs and voices of survivors are prioritized over maintaining the reputation of leaders. The discussion ends with hope that more people are awakening to these injustices and choosing to stand on the side of truth and healing.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Jed’s Background and the Label of “False Prophet’s Son”
02:03 Abuse of Power and Coverups in Revival Movements
03:32 Forgiveness vs. Restoration of Abusive Leaders
04:46 Growing Up in a Judgmental Sect
07:11 Prophecies of 2015 and Fear-Based Control
09:15 Manipulation of Children with Doctrines of Shame
11:26 Fire, Brimstone, and Cold War Fears
13:18 Grace for Leaders, Judgment for Members
14:24 Wrestling with the Concept of Justice
17:40 The Agenda of Control vs. True Christianity
20:28 Why Leaders Avoid Criticizing Each Other
26:35 Prophecy, Smith Wigglesworth, and Branham’s Rise
28:38 Lack of Justice for Victims of Early Pentecostal Leaders
30:53 Victim-First Advocacy and the Mike Bickle Case
35:11 Statutes of Limitations as Tools for Predators
36:30 Bob Jones, Prophecy, and the Mantle Obsession
43:03 The Network of Apostolic Control
44:42 Mob Parallels and Mantle Politics
46:57 Bob Jones’ Funeral and Necromancy Accusations
50:42 Power and Profit over Compassion
53:16 The Phoniness of Courage in NAR Leaders
56:11 Shifts Toward Victim-First Justice
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://wil
The conversation shifts toward how movements such as the New Apostolic Reformation operate through networks of control and mutual protection. John and Jed trace how spiritual authority is often used to suppress victims and silence dissenters, even when allegations involve deeply harmful actions. They describe how internal loyalty, fear of losing influence, and the structure of charismatic leadership keep victims from being heard. They also reflect on attempts to reform these systems through compassion-centered justice, where the needs and voices of survivors are prioritized over maintaining the reputation of leaders. The discussion ends with hope that more people are awakening to these injustices and choosing to stand on the side of truth and healing.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 Jed’s Background and the Label of “False Prophet’s Son”
02:03 Abuse of Power and Coverups in Revival Movements
03:32 Forgiveness vs. Restoration of Abusive Leaders
04:46 Growing Up in a Judgmental Sect
07:11 Prophecies of 2015 and Fear-Based Control
09:15 Manipulation of Children with Doctrines of Shame
11:26 Fire, Brimstone, and Cold War Fears
13:18 Grace for Leaders, Judgment for Members
14:24 Wrestling with the Concept of Justice
17:40 The Agenda of Control vs. True Christianity
20:28 Why Leaders Avoid Criticizing Each Other
26:35 Prophecy, Smith Wigglesworth, and Branham’s Rise
28:38 Lack of Justice for Victims of Early Pentecostal Leaders
30:53 Victim-First Advocacy and the Mike Bickle Case
35:11 Statutes of Limitations as Tools for Predators
36:30 Bob Jones, Prophecy, and the Mantle Obsession
43:03 The Network of Apostolic Control
44:42 Mob Parallels and Mantle Politics
46:57 Bob Jones’ Funeral and Necromancy Accusations
50:42 Power and Profit over Compassion
53:16 The Phoniness of Courage in NAR Leaders
56:11 Shifts Toward Victim-First Justice
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://wil
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LearningTranscript
00:30Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research
00:41at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false
00:47prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer. Jed, the false prophet, the son
00:54of a prophet, all of this, it still gets me every time I do it. I laugh at this to think
00:59about having that label. I don't know how you can stand it. I'm glad that I don't have
01:05that label, but you do, my friend.
01:08It always leads to interesting conversations whenever I first meet a person, because that
01:15really is my background. And especially without, like if I'm meeting people who have no idea
01:23of my background, and then they see some of these videos, or just Google my name, there
01:30are always interesting conversations to be had about like, yeah, I grew up with a prophet
01:35or false prophet, you know?
01:37It's quite a label, my friend. I'm somewhat joking, because I still, you know, suffer thinking
01:43through the fact that my family was behind creating this mess, and it's, you know, in
01:49the grand scheme of things, which one is worse, it's hard to say. The prophet has an unusual
01:54label, but to be honest, everybody in this movement who has risen to some sort of authority
02:00has abuse of power, and which leads us to our discussion today on what do you do with
02:06that abuse of power.
02:09You probably haven't seen it, but Charles and I have gone through our entire phase two
02:14of the revival history research, and I think before this one comes out, I think the last
02:22one of it is published.
02:23And then he went back deep into exposing all of the wrongs and injustices in his sect of
02:31the cult. And I'm like watching it, watching this all unfold, and it's just unbelievable.
02:38They were advocating for the capital punishment of children and covering up sexual abuse, all
02:45kinds of things that was happening here. So I'm watching all this unfold, and what do you
02:49do with this? Whenever something this bad happens, it's awkward when you're in a Christian setting,
02:55because in Christianity, God can forgive you of this. So on the one hand, whenever you make
03:02this argument, there's always this notion that, well, God can forgive them for it, and therefore
03:08let's restore them into power and put them back into the same position where they had abused
03:14their authority. And on the other hand, you're thinking, heck no, man, I don't want them back
03:19in power to do this thing. So it's going to make for an interesting discussion.
03:24That juxtaposition of having, you said like within the church, especially within the church,
03:29there's God can heal, and there's compassion for people, and there's people can be restored.
03:40There is, I've experienced, I mean, throughout my life entirely, but just especially within these
03:47two years, I've experienced so much whiplash from the judgmental nature of the community
03:57that I grew up in, and then the non-judgmental nature of the way in which people deal with abuse
04:07and everything from pedophilia to child sexual abuse in general, and just some of the most horrific
04:21things, most blatant atrocities, deception, fraud, corruption, the way that that's handled
04:35versus this sort of attitude of judgment. So what I mean by that is, if you think about
04:47the message of the International House of Prayer community, like I legitimately grew up in one of
04:55the most judgmental sects of Christianity that exists in the Western world and certainly within
05:01the United States right now. And that's not like, I'm not being hyperbolic about that. If anything,
05:08people like Sean Foyt and others like actually hang their hat on this, where they probably wouldn't
05:13say it the most judgmental, but they have the most restrictions around who gets into heaven,
05:22what behaviors you can and cannot do, what is right, what is wrong, what is a lukewarm Christian,
05:29Christian? You know, I remember so many different times being told that the Lord will spit the
05:35lukewarm Christians out of his mouth and it's only those who will be on fire for God. So it was this
05:42judgmental, demanding religion in which everyone outside of our circle was going to go to hell and
05:50was going to be tortured for eternity because they did not believe the right things, even people who
05:56thought they were Christians. Like I remember the passage often being used of Jesus being like,
06:04I never knew you. This idea of like, even people who think that they're saved are not saved because
06:14they didn't actually know Jesus in the right and proper way. I think that I've mentioned it before
06:21on here, but when I was, so this was in 2008 or 2009, um, there was a itinerant pastor that came to,
06:32uh, or, or, uh, itinerant minister of some sort who came to, um, the international house of prayer.
06:40And this was right during the same time that there was all of these prophecies about 2015 and,
06:47and solar flares that were going to disrupt, um, all of technology and how 2015 was gonna start the,
06:57the sort of like right before the tribulation, the sort of, um, uh, pre, um, calamities that would
07:06precede, um, the, the tribulation and the, the resurrection. Um, it was, it was quite literally
07:15supposed to have, start happening in 2015. And, um, so there already was this spirit of like
07:22fear and anxiety because it was like, oh my goodness, this is going to happen. Not just like
07:27the Lord is returning, but the Lord is returning in just a few years. That's sort of how it was being
07:34felt. And, uh, at, in 2008, I was 16 years old, um, 16, 17 years old. So I was a young,
07:45adult, well, a teenager going into sort of my young adult years. I mean, starting to form my
07:52independent life and, and trying to decide where I was going to go to college, which by the way,
07:58this absolutely affected how, where I went to college and everything like that. Like this has
08:03had a dramatic effect on my life. Um, but during this period, um, we had this itinerant minister come
08:11in and I remember he gave, he was one of those individuals during this time. There's a lot of
08:17people who were traveling around talking about how God took them to hell, um, and how they had
08:24hell visitations and they saw what hell was like. Um, I don't know if that's still a thing I imagine
08:30probably still is. Um, but that was a big thing in 2008 for sure. Um, and the sort of late aughts was
08:38these, all of these different traveling ministers who had, had been to hell and they were all
08:44Christian before they had been brought to hell. Um, and so too was this man, like he, it wasn't like
08:52he was unsaved, had never been a Christian and, and the Lord showed him hell and then he repented.
09:01Um, it was, he was a Christian and he didn't realize that he still was going to hell. This is
09:07the, this is the narrative is that like he, even though being a Christian, um, and this, this individual
09:16who the, the reason why he was going to, um, how that the Lord shared with him was because of
09:23masturbation.
09:24We had a similar doctrine in Branhamism, although I know this wasn't limited Branhamism. It was
09:30widespread throughout Pentecostalism and fundamentalist religions. In fact, I think
09:35there may be chick publications about this, but I, for a long time after leaving, I was still even
09:42uncomfortable hearing that word. And it wasn't until I read Dr. Stephen Hassan's book. I think
09:48it was combating cult mind control, but it might've been the other one, freedom of mind. He was talking
09:52about how that was used as a manipulation technique for children. And I'd never really thought about
09:59that. I had taken health classes in school, biology classes in school, and I knew some of the, you know,
10:06some of the science and biology reasons, but I had never really recognized the fact that the cults could
10:12turn the minds of the children against themselves. And that was something that I really had to really
10:19work hard at trying to understand. But in the end, it just, I put it into the stack of many, many things
10:26and ways in which they manipulated children through fear. And the psychological damage that is done by
10:32this is just unbelievable. Especially in these worlds, the doctrine is never super clear. It's very
10:39fuzzy. But what was to be inferred from this conversation was that if you are a Christian,
10:46but then you are giving yourself over to the lust of the flesh, which in this case meant masturbation,
10:54not even like having premarital sex, not even, you know, uh, acted just, just masturbation alone,
11:05you that in of itself, like represented that you were not truly saved and you did not truly know
11:12Jesus. You professed knowing Jesus, but that he, you did not know that him in your heart, because if you
11:19did, you wouldn't be doing these particular behaviors. So all that to say, um, the world that
11:26I grew up in was extremely judgmental and had this fire and brimstone sort of, if you masturbate,
11:34you're going to be torture for all of eternity. And the, you better figure it out quickly because
11:40in 2015, the world is going to begin to end and, um, you're going to be tested whether you're ready
11:49or not. Yeah, that's pretty much what we had, but our version of end of days was much different
11:54because we were stuck in the forties, fifties, and sixties. And literally as children, we were
11:59reliving the cold war. So while we had the same things going through our heads, we were thinking
12:04atomic blasts and Russia and what's really sad and scary and interesting all at the same time.
12:11Now that Russia is finally again, flexing their muscles, and it looks very likely that there's
12:18going to be some sort of a world conflict, all of those same fears that are being indoctrinated into
12:23children. Um, when I was a child, it's still happening today. Those cold war fears are escalating.
12:30So the, the minds of the children are just, I can't even imagine the crushing weight of fear
12:35that is in their heads right now. And yet now the same people who preach these messages,
12:41the same individuals who would get on the pulpit and would preach these sort of fire and brimstone
12:47messages with such anger and conviction, the same people who would talk about the depravity of the
12:55American, um, um, um, politics and, and the worldly sort of harlot Babylon spirit that had taken over
13:03America are now when it's in the context of literal pedophiles and literal individuals who are abusing,
13:17um, um, vulnerable individuals, there is suddenly a message of grace and it's, well, let's think about
13:27what God is going to do with Mike Bickle.
13:30Exactly. The double standards are just unbelievable.
13:34It's totally inconsistent. And there's this sort of whiplash of like, uh, judgment for
13:40the, and not for me sort of thing. And, um, it is really difficult. And I think too,
13:48it makes it really difficult even in our jobs now of being like, clearly you and I, John are
13:54interested and invested in writing some of the wrongs in the world that we both were, um,
14:03kind of grew up in and that we have studied and that we have spoken about. Like, clearly there's a lot
14:09of, uh, passion that we have of, of making sure that a lot of the injustice of this world is exposed
14:17and dealt with. Um, but I find it difficult, um, especially being, you know, sort of a young man.
14:24I mean, I'm in my thirties now, but, um, for, to orient myself around being like, well, what even is the
14:33proper pursuit of justice? Because the, the, the way that it was modeled to me is so clearly
14:43inconsistent, just so abrasively inconsistent of huge and, um, demanding expectations for everyone
14:54else. And then completely benign consequences for serious offenses of, of what's going on within the
15:04community. Um, so there's a lot of, I, I've definitely, we've talked about this sort of subject
15:10before. Um, but I think it's, it's worth repeating again and getting back into, because I think it's
15:16just, you know, there's so many different branching ways that we can kind of discuss what was wrong
15:22with that sort of, um, structure of justice and how do we implement and advocate for justice in
15:31a way that is totally different than the way that I, you know, I sort of saw demonstrated.
15:38The irony of the whole subject matter is that the moment in which a person who came from that group,
15:45here's the word that you used. That's the end of their listening to this podcast.
15:49That's how ingrained it is. But yet they will allow the leaders to go as far as they have.
15:56For me, it's just really a set of double standards. Even the use of the word, I don't know how it was
16:01in your sect, even the use of the word in my sect, like there's not a single brand of might that will
16:06be listening to me talking at this point because the word was used. And yet the same kind of thing
16:12was happening there. And where it gets really problematic is that the way that it was presented
16:20to the children does severe psychological damage to the children. And so the example that I gave
16:28earlier where Charles is going after, um, exposing the group that he was in specifically what they were
16:36calling for the execution for is that anyone who did not obey their parents would be executed.
16:43So what this is, obviously no parent is going to do this, but you have a minister who's standing
16:50behind the pulpit, scaring the heck out of the children. Yeah. One day I'm going to be executed.
16:56I better go home and obey my parents. That's not how you parent your children. That's not how you,
17:02further. That's not how you preach the gospel to people in a church. Simply put, it's not,
17:09but what we have replaced with Christianity really is agenda. We have an agenda of control
17:17and manipulation. And the things that you described, the things that Charles has described,
17:22I've talked about some of it in the past too. All of these aren't really doctrines to further
17:27the church closer to Jesus. It's literally a doctrine that has an agenda of forcing control.
17:34Paul I'm glad that you used the word control too, because I've been thinking about what is this
17:40justice in this world about? Like, where does it come from and what is it unto? Because if it's unto,
17:46just, you know, if it, if, if, if people like Lou Engel and, and Sean Foyt and some of these others who
17:56have this justice chip, who are very, um, outspoken about the wrongs, uh, especially when it comes to
18:06sexuality and, and, um, uh, the persecution of children and, or, or the abuse of children like this is,
18:13if, if that's what your sort of message is about, and then you do not speak out against those who
18:21are abusing and exploiting children within your own myths, it's like, okay, well, what, what is this
18:27about? Because it isn't about protecting the children anymore. It isn't about caring about these
18:33behaviors because you have way more influence on your own community than you have on other individuals'
18:42communities. And like, it takes way more courage to speak about your own community than it does to
18:47speak about somebody else's community or the community at, you know, the world at large.
18:53And if you're not advocating for these things, if you're not calling out the Mike Bickles,
18:58if you're not calling out, um, the Bob Hartleys, the, the Sean Bowles and the others who have,
19:05have clearly, um, used prophecy to, to specifically to abuse, um, the vulnerable, uh, whether it be
19:15children or, or, or not, um, then you don't really have a justice, like it's not coming from a place
19:22of justice. And I think that this idea, the word control, I was kind of searching for the right word.
19:28Um, and I think control is the right word. It's coming from a place of control. It's about,
19:34this is how I would like the world to look. Well, that's just it. It is a, if you consider
19:41how the group think works, you have a central figure who's pushing the agenda. You have all
19:46of the people who are now indoctrinated to believe that agenda. And the way in which they're manipulated
19:53is that it's us versus them. It's the outsiders and we're the insiders. We're the holy ones.
19:59However, however the verbiage is that they use, but it's always us versus them. The problem is
20:05as time continues, you get constrained in that little box that you're created in and pushed
20:11and manipulated in. So the box starts to seem very small and then you want to change the outside world
20:18to fit inside your box. That makes way more sense because then, um, if it's from this place of
20:26control, then speaking out against other leaders is not within your, um, agenda. It's not, it is not
20:40beneficial to you because one, you're going to lose a bit of your control because your control has come
20:46from this place of like cohesion, leadership cohesion, where if, if Lou Engel undermines the
20:54credibility, uh, the credibility of, of, uh, Mike Bickle, then he's undermining his own credibility
21:03in some ways. And I will say that Lou Engel did like write out a statement that was critical of Mike
21:11Bickle. So I, I am picking on Lou a lot. Um, partially because like I grew up with Lou, I grew
21:18up with his kids and, and like, this is something, um, you know, I really believed him for much of my,
21:27um, childhood and, and teenage years. I really believed his, um, persona of, of, he really wants
21:36to right the wrongs that are going on within, um, the world specifically when it comes to like
21:44sexual immorality and exploitation of the vulnerable. That was the, that was the idea
21:51and representation of what I had for him. Um, and I'm not, I'm not totally saying that he doesn't
21:58have some genuine sense of that. Um, but it clearly is rooted far more into, in control
22:06because, um, as much as he like put out a single statement in that statement, he even starts my
22:13friend, Mike Bickle. And at the very end, he talks about the path to restoration. Like there's no way
22:19to talk about criticizing these men without in the same breath, um, talking about restoration.
22:28Like it's, it's, it's sort of like, um, it's like what you're told to do in couples counseling
22:33when the stakes are way lower, um, where you shouldn't, if you want to talk about,
22:39you know, an issue with your partner, you first start with a compliment, you do the compliment
22:46sandwich thing of like, well, this is what's, you know, you do good. Here's what I would like
22:53improvement on, but then this is where we can go. And, and this is what I appreciate is this idea
22:58of just like, Oh, I don't want to ruffle any feathers. And I, I'm saying this a little bit
23:04disparagingly. I do think that is very effective in couples counseling. It is a terrible way to deal
23:10with, uh, abuse that has been going on within your community because it's like, no, you need to speak
23:17clearly. And with your full chest, especially if that's your entire persona about, um, horrific
23:24things that are going on within your community. Like this, this is not a let's waffle. Let's talk
23:30about his path to restoration. Let's not talk about him being your friend. This is, let's speak clearly,
23:38um, and emphatically about the injustice that was right under your nose and that you missed. And
23:45you say that you get, you know, you hear from the Lord all the time. And for 20, no, well, more than
23:51that 40 years, while you were partnering in ministry with this man, you knew, had no idea he was
23:57exploiting, exploiting teenagers. Um, that's a problem. It is a problem. And it's an interesting one
24:04because when these guys have pushed their agendas often because of the apostolic networks in the new
24:11apostolic reformation, one networks agenda is supported by another network network's agenda,
24:17but each agenda, each different group has their own central figure that is pushing their agenda
24:23forward. And so if you combine those and then suddenly one falls, well, everything that you have
24:29said that is supporting your agenda that required the other guy who just fell, well, all of that is at
24:37risk. So in other words, your agenda becomes at risk. So these guys have to support each other like
24:42this. And again, so going back when it's about control, you don't want to upset the cart. You don't
24:53want to be in a place where you're speaking out against the very men who have validated and given
25:01you some of your own power. And so Sean Foy is never going to talk and be angry about Mike Bickle.
25:10Um, uh, there's just never going to be this sort of sense of accountability because again,
25:17it's not justice from a place of compassion for the victim. It's justice from the place of control
25:25and wanting to have the world look like whatever benefits you the most.
25:33Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
25:38modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements
25:44into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical
25:49Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled
25:57research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others with links
26:04to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation
26:10on various people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause,
26:16you can support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always,
26:22be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching.
26:27On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
26:32I am working on, and I'm not certain when I'll actually get this published, but I'm working on
26:38digging deeper into the roots of why the latter reign started. Because all of this mess we see,
26:45we can all trace it back to the latter reign movement. And there's this very interesting
26:50point in history. I discovered this by accident because I was digging into Smith Wigglesworth and
26:56his connection to doctrinal connection to all of this movement. And I suddenly came across a prophecy,
27:03and I want to flesh out all the details before I give the names here, but I came across a prophecy
27:10wherein a person prophesied over William Branham that essentially he was going to be the next
27:17Smith Wigglesworth. And if you put the timeline together, Smith Wigglesworth died, then suddenly
27:22Branham is everywhere. So this prophecy apparently spread throughout the United States and Canada,
27:28and everybody's going to see the new Smith Wigglesworth. Yeah, which is really, really
27:33interesting. And there are people in Branham's campaign team that had toured with Smith Wigglesworth.
27:40I mean, this, this is a big deal. Not long before that happened, however, the person who issued the
27:48prophecy, which was a very esteemed member, high ranking member of a Pentecostal organization,
27:56had a scandal where he was groping young women. And the women complained, they wrote to the,
28:05I guess, the superintendent, I have to look up the titles here and understand what all these titles
28:10mean. But anyway, somebody above him, the women wrote to him and basically exposed this whole thing.
28:17This person was being inappropriate with me, multiple women, not just one. And what happened was,
28:25the guy admitted to it, and then claimed forgiveness, with no justice, and stayed in
28:34the movement, stayed with his title and everything for years and years to come. Well, that guy,
28:40if I'm understanding it correctly, this person, which I'll, I'll, I'll be publishing this later,
28:44but he is responsible for the mess today, because he is the one that literally initiated William Branham
28:51into this weird faith healing thing. And yet he had this past, where's the justice for the women?
28:57That's one of the problems that we see here.
28:59Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think that this, when you have a victim first sort of conception of justice,
29:07I think that that it requires these sort of like, okay, well, no, you don't get to just
29:13be restored and keep going. Um, it, because who's to say it won't happen again. And it is,
29:21is incredibly, um, disrespectful and, and invalidating to the victims, the women in this,
29:32in this scenario, um, when their stories aren't, aren't taken seriously, aren't validated. And so I think of,
29:43um, the three women who, I mean, many more than just three women, but the sort of three individuals
29:53have come forward with their name being my, my mother, uh, Tammy and, and Deborah, who have spoken
30:00up, up against Mike Bickle. Um, I, I would, I am encouraged by the way, some of this has happened
30:10because I think this wouldn't have always happened in, in the past. Um, like the way that Bob Jones
30:16scandal, um, unfolded, um, was much more in this sort of method and structure of expose it as minimally
30:26as possible and then, um, have them restored a year or two later. I believe that although I justice,
30:35I do not believe has been fully served with, with, um, the Mike Bickle situation, because there's,
30:40um, a lot of like legal and civil, um, I, I think that there should be legal and civil consequences.
30:48And, and there still is a process to sort of, um, have that happen. Um, but the, the arm of justice in
30:58this particular case is going to move very slowly. And because some of, uh, the events, uh, transpired
31:05several decades ago, um, it is hard to both prove and, uh, statute of limitations. It is, it is going
31:14to be hard to get civil or criminal justice in this particular case. However, a lot of the advocacy work
31:21that has happened, including the advocates who were once like Alan hood and, and, um, others who
31:29are part of the, um, sort of initial advocacy team, um, supporting Deborah who were once very much
31:38in and perpetuating a lot of the cult I grew up in. Um, I think that there was a change and I really
31:46respect that there is sort of, um, positive movement that's being happened where it was much
31:53more victim focused than, uh, uh, a lot of the attempts in the past where it was about validating
32:01these women's stories. And in some part, I, you know, I wonder if Mike Bickle had, um, not fought
32:09them and had not doubled down and tripled down. Um, maybe, maybe we would have seen sort of him
32:18get away with it, or maybe we would have never even known because maybe it would have been like,
32:22okay, he repents in secret and we just don't see him on the pulpit for three years. And then later
32:29we find out what happened. Um, but because he doubled down, it, it, it sort of had to become
32:36more victim focused because, um, he was re-victimizing these victims by, um, reversing,
32:43doing the whole Darvo deny attack, reverse victim and offender thing that still is going on today.
32:50Um, but anyway, all that to say, like, I know that there has been some sense of progress because
32:59these women's stories were heard and validated and they're like, um, especially for Deborah and
33:05Tammy, like they're best friends now. And I think that there's something beautiful about that
33:10Deborah and Tammy. Um, and my mom also, my mom is, uh, living in, um, in California and it's kind of
33:17separated from the situation a lot. Um, but I think that there's this sort of validation of like,
33:23this really happened to me, this shaped who I was, this is affected me. It was wrong. And being able to
33:32have that accepted and heard by your community, which it hasn't fully been accepted and heard by
33:40the community, because there's still people like, um, Mike's little sister who are, are still trying
33:46to paint them as the villains and the victims. But largely, I think there has been a lot of positive
33:52reaction and there. So this is when it's victim focused, we can start seeing that like, okay,
33:59we're on this progressive path towards justice of these women being able to have their stories
34:06validated. Mike Bickle is, is, I do not believe that Mike Bickle will ever be able to return to
34:13ministry without this hovering over him. He might return to ministry, but I think that this is always,
34:20always going to affect him. Um, and I think that that's good. Like, I think that that's a step
34:27towards justice. I would love to see civil and criminal, um, justice as well. But like,
34:35again, when you, when you're sort of centered in this victim first, um, understanding our justice,
34:41I think that we can start seeing the sort of healthy pursuit of justice.
34:46I think we'll start seeing more and more of this as time goes on. There have been so many people who
34:51have hid behind the statue of limitations and think about this. If you're a cult leader and you have
34:58the people, people manipulated, you do something like this. Well, you know, you can control them.
35:04And as long as you can control them until the statue of limitations expires, you get off scot-free.
35:11Now take that problem and amplify it. You have multiple people doing multiple of the same things
35:18to other people, each one waiting for a statue of limitations to expire. And they keep each other's
35:25groups sort of corralled under this indoctrination of fear. So they don't come forward. That's why you
35:32hear different cult leaders say it's, it's wrong to accuse the brethren or whatever's the verbiage
35:36they use because they too are fighting similar things themselves. So if you can have multiple people
35:43in your network helping fight for you to exceed the duration for the statue of limitations, then
35:50everybody gets off scot-free. However, there's a growing movement who these people realize that
35:57this is not right. Not only the statue of limitations doesn't really make sense, but it's being used
36:04specifically to help the people who are empowered as predators to continue doing the same thing.
36:09So there's a growing movement to just do away with it all together. And I've weighed both sides of
36:15the argument. I think I'm in favor of just doing away with it because you can't keep letting this
36:21happen. You can't keep letting the predators continue to prey upon the people.
36:25So when Bob Jones abused, used prophecy to abuse two different women, a mother and a daughter,
36:35um, I've told the story before, I won't tell it again, right in this moment, but, um, I mean,
36:40really, really horrific and manipulative, um, sexual abuse that was because it was couched in
36:47prophecy to makes it just all that much more traumatic. Um, when it was addressed, there was a sort of a
36:57council that was called of latter reign and, and new apostolic reformation, uh, leaders.
37:05Um, Mike Bickle was very much at the head of this. Um, there is even a document, um, that kind of
37:13details some of the notes of it. I can find it. I've, I've read it several different times. Um,
37:19and I can send it to you, John, if, if you'd like to see it, you might've already come across it, but
37:23it's sort of is in Mike Bickle's own words, sort of his accounts of why it was wrong and what needs
37:32to be done to, to have restoration happen. And the primary thing that Mike Bickle, not the primary,
37:44the exclusive thing that Mike Bickle said was that it was like a sin against God because he was an
37:54anointed man. Bob Jones was an anointed man and he had used that, uh, anointing improperly. It's kind
38:01of like the, um, Moses, you know, being told to speak to the rock, um, and, and the water shall
38:11burst forth. I think I'm telling this story, right? And instead he strikes them rock with his
38:16staff. And it's like, the Lord gave you a specific man. You follow the command of the Lord
38:21because, especially because you are anointed in it. Um, this is not a, no, not a victim first
38:30sort of, uh, uh, perspective of justice because it doesn't, Mike Bickle didn't give two shits about
38:37the, the women who are abused. It was about the mantle. It was all about the mantle. And in
38:44talking about how it was wrong, you are validating the authority of God. It's like, oh, this was wrong
38:54because you were chosen by God, you know? And it's this sort of like backwards compliment of being
39:01like, okay, well, God is using you. Um, and it is more about control. It's about, okay,
39:08you have this power, you use this power incorrectly, but it's still invested in keeping the power. So
39:16it's like, okay, let's get you on a restoration plan where you then receive the power back. I mean,
39:24it, it, it immediately focuses on how do we make sure this character of Bob Jones regains his power
39:36and authority. That's all that it's dealing with. It's not dealing with how did you affect these
39:42people? It's not calling to ink to question whether we should have ever given this person power,
39:48to begin with. It's not questioning whether they lied prophetically and are a false prophet. It's not
39:57questioning any of that because if it were, then it would be undermining the control of both that
40:05individual and Mike Bickle's entire ministry was, was validated with the Bob Jones prophetic history.
40:13And so if Bob Jones becomes infallid, so does Mike Bickle. And it's, it's disgusting to read and see
40:22how Mike Bickle frames that and know too, that during that exact same time, he was abusing women,
40:31um, and yeah, young girls, um, teenagers at that time. And it totally makes sense. Um, and I just saw,
40:43uh, uh, like a week ago, someone posted, I don't know, I can't remember who it was and I didn't
40:50recognize the name, but it's some new apostolic minister, um, talked about Mike Bickle and it was
40:59like talking about why Mike Bickle had fallen and why it was wrong. And he was like, he used the words
41:06of Bob Jones. He was like, if Bob Jones had said that if, if any minister anointed by God is involved
41:14with sexual immorality, it invalidates their ministry. And that is something that Bob Jones
41:19had said. Um, and he was like the, I think he said something like the, the biggest reason
41:26Mike Bickle is at fault. And it's like, that's not the biggest reason. It's not because of what Bob
41:31Jones said. It's not because of misusing God's mantle or authority. It's about abusing people.
41:40What's wrong is that you harmed people and you use your power to, um, manipulate young women.
41:47And that is like effect and that will affect them throughout their entire lives. I mean,
41:53the, the, the victims who are coming forward most vocally are in their fifties and sixties and
41:59talking about how this affected their entire life. Um, and yeah. And so men in power within this
42:12community so quickly dismiss and disconnect from the actual victims. And I think that that's
42:20got to be at the heart of this discussion of, of justice and, and this clear disparity between
42:28justice for the, or punishment for the, and not for me. Um, that is clearly at the heart of, of the
42:36new apostolic reformation movement. It gets real interesting when you think about the roles that
42:41these people play. We've talked before about how an apostle means nothing like they're, they're using
42:47it for in the new apostolic reformation. An apostle means somebody who is sent out and all of the
42:52biblical qualifications of an apostle. None of them have this. In fact, they can't have this,
42:59but each one, like I said before, they're all in this network where they're helping each other so
43:05that if one falls, they can pick them back up and then forward the agenda, keep the agenda moving.
43:11And if one falls, they can't let him fall because everything that fell with his part of the agenda
43:17could drag the whole agenda down and they just can't have this. But now think about the structures
43:24that are in place. Most of these people use the five-fold ministry. It's a hierarchy of
43:29authoritarian control, but whatever is the hierarchy that they use, it's like these pyramids that exist
43:36within each group within the network. The person at the top, the central figure, is generally the
43:42one who is falling. So within each pyramid, you have people who are underneath him as, I guess,
43:48enforcers. So the rank and file members, they have to be corralled. They can't think about what's
43:54happening. They can't think about the atrocities that are happening. When it goes beyond that,
44:00somebody from one of these other authoritarian control structures has to come help. And it's all
44:06about keeping the agenda moving. They cannot let it fall. But yet at the same time, none of this
44:13can be found anywhere within the description of the church in the Bible. There are no structures like
44:21that. In fact, the only structure that I can even think of like this really is the way that the mob
44:26operates. If you will do whatever I tell you to do or give me whatever money I say to give me,
44:32I will let you continue to operate in your syndicate. But we're all cooperating in an
44:38organized syndicate. That's really how this fits. It doesn't fit the biblical model.
44:44Yeah. And you have these different like families who are, I think the mob parallel is perfect. And I
44:51know I've talked about it before, but I'm going to talk about it again. Because you were even talking
44:57about how the Branham, Wigglesworth dies, and then immediately there's this sort of taking the
45:07mantle thing where Wigglesworth dies and now Branham is assuming the mantle of Wigglesworth. And there
45:17also was throughout, I mean, all of Pentecostal history, there's been the assuming the mantle of
45:24Elisha has been this sort of thing that people have been trying to, I mean, there's seven different
45:32people who have claimed that they are Elisha reincarnated or the spirit of Elisha is upon
45:39them and stuff. I think that this is an under-discussed aspect of the new apostolic
45:46Reformation 2 is this like vying for the mantle of it. And I think it's very, it's like the mob,
45:56but with spiritual magic sort of at the heart of it too. So that's where I get the Game of Thrones
46:07thing too, where it's like, it feels very, um, feudal. Uh, there is this weird magic that is
46:21possessing very demonic, um, spiritual warfare aspect behind it. And the moment where I saw this
46:33most poignantly, um, before I was even really that critical of the world in general. Um, so this was,
46:41this was me as a young man who had started to recognize, Hey, things are off. I think I was 21
46:49or two when this happened, but Bob Jones died. Bob Jones passes away. And we, my, I travel with my dad.
47:00I think this is in like 2014, I could be wrong, but I travel with my dad to North Carolina, um, where
47:08the funeral is happening in the memorial service. Um, and I met in the green room of the memorial
47:17service. First of all, the idea that there was a green room for memorial service was like very weird
47:24in general. And that was the first thing where I was like, Oh, this is, we're treating this man's
47:31death as this weird speaking event. And it was very, um, my dad was very upset that he was not being
47:39given an opportunity to get up and, and speak. Um, and he was talking with, uh, Bonnie Jones,
47:46uh, Bob Jones, um, uh, widow about, there was this sort of like, Hey, well, you know, how do,
47:54how can I get on the mic? And, but she was like doing some of these politics of like, well, no,
47:59you know, that you were so important and you were like a son to him and all of this. So she was sort
48:05of taking care of him emotionally. And I remember just being one very frustrated with my dad in that
48:11moment because I was like, get it together. But it wasn't just him. It was all of these different
48:17egos that were there. Um, and Mike Bickle, uh, Bobby Connor. Um, but all of these different
48:27people were like, kind of had this, like, it's important who goes first, who talks, where and
48:34what, um, at, at this man's memorial service. And then there was this big vine within the profits
48:45of who is going to take on the mantle of Bob Jones. And my dad started telling people that Bob Jones was
48:52coming and visiting him in the night. And it was like, someone, I remember someone getting very upset
49:00and, um, uh, accusing my dad of necromancy, um, speaking with the dad dead. And I was like,
49:08man, I don't know what the boundaries of this is because they said that they were like necromancy.
49:14And I was like, that's ridiculous. And then I was like, well, technically that is speaking with
49:18the debt, but like, we do that all the time. So do Christian, do we just do necromancy in this world?
49:24Like I, I, that was that sort of like feudal magic thing that I was getting at too, where it was
49:30like, this is kind of creepy. This is, this is weird. All of this is weird and creepy. And, um,
49:39because there were all these egos involved and stuff. And it was just this fine for like, okay,
49:43this man has had this anointing and now that he's dead, there's a vacuum and there is,
49:54sort of like who will take on the mantle and who will take on his power. And for like, uh, I think
49:59for like a year or two, my dad really was like stepping in the Bob Jones mantle. That's when he
50:06became very prominent in Bethel. Um, and then, and then very quickly after there was, he had a quick,
50:14he had a quick rise to power and a quick descent out of power, um, because of all sorts of reasons.
50:22Um, but that I, I remember that just being so clearly like the, the magician's mob was,
50:35was very much the vibe of that moment. And, um, it's of course there's, you know, no discussion of
50:47how Bob Jones had fallen. There was no discussion of any of that, which I don't know. It was his
50:53funeral. I understand that to some extent people don't like speaking ill of the dead, but at the
51:00same time, it was just so clearly toxic and corrupt. And, um, if people just had any idea
51:08how much this world, the leadership in the new apostolic reformation world is about control and
51:17power and exclusively about control and power, I don't understand how it's still, how any of these
51:26ministries are still viable. Like, I don't understand why people go to it anymore because,
51:32I mean, I guess that, I guess a lot of people are deceived and don't see this, um, or a lot of
51:38people want to find a measure of control themselves. And so it doesn't matter because they're like,
51:45well, I want to be a part of the mob. So this is great, but people who are genuinely a part of it
51:52as, as a sort of like progressing the gospel, that's not the agenda of this world, that it just
52:00explicitly is not the agenda of that world. It's not about compassion. It's not about helping the
52:06poor. It's not about, um, the, the widow and the orphan. It's not about, um, even sharing the gospel
52:16and sharing the good news of Jesus. It, uh, it isn't even about healing people. Um, it's about
52:25power. It's about power and control and profit. And, um, so when we talk about bringing it back to
52:33justice, when these people, when it looks like they're speaking out against the injustice of the
52:40world, it's only the injustice of the world that it is profitable for them to speak out against.
52:47That's the only injustice they're concerned with is the injustice of the world externally,
52:54because that talking about things that people hate and is a very easy way to make a lot of money
53:02and gain a lot of attention. It's just being like, Oh, look at this. Look at these people who are doing
53:07this activity. Oh my goodness. How horrible and awful is this? It's so easy to make money that way
53:15and to gain power and to make it seem like you're brave and courageous. Like that's the, this is the
53:22last thing I'll say. I, you know, obviously I've been going on a tangent, but I pick on Sean Foy a lot
53:28in this. I, he is, he is often, um, the person who I criticize because he is so obviously phony to me.
53:38And in a way that is like, so one annoying, but also beyond that, just like corrupt where he, he really
53:48presents himself as he is doing something courageous. Like he really presents as he is a pioneer fighting
53:56against the injustice of the world and who is bringing clarity and, um, uh, justice and righteousness
54:05to the world. And he does not have the courage to even speak against the literal pedophiles within
54:14his own community. Like that to, to pretend that you are some courageous crusader when in reality,
54:24you wouldn't, he would never threaten his own power and authority. And I think that's absolutely
54:32disgusting. And because, you know, I feel like I have had to actually lose things by speaking up
54:40against the injustice that I've seen. Like I actually, it is not profited me at all throughout
54:46all of this. And so I, I feel like I have some, a foot to stand on in criticizing him. And I would say
54:53that to his face. So if anyone knows him, you know, you can tell him that, uh, Jed said that directly,
54:59but, um, but yeah, yeah, it, it just is so, it's so disgustingly corrupt and so clearly rooted in
55:09control instead of compassion. Um, and that has to change and I'll keep talking until it does not.
55:19I'll stop talking now, but
55:21we might be talking a long time. Yeah.
55:29Yeah. There's, it angers me. I can tell that you're clearly upset by this and I am too. It's
55:35just one of those things that the problem has became so vastly widespread and the people are
55:43under such control and manipulation that they're actually enabling the predators and how do you
55:50stop the wave of people? That's really the problem here. It isn't so much the predators who are in
55:56power. Those, those aren't the people to fear. It's actually the people below them are the ones to fear.
56:01How do you stop that wave of people? So anyway, we could
56:06probably talk for an hour about this and, and still get nowhere, but
56:09at least we vented. Yeah. Yeah. No, for sure.
56:13And well, and I, I do think that this important thing of being
56:16compassion and victim first when, when dealing with justice, I think
56:22slowly, but surely, I think that there is a shift
56:25that's happening at least with the community that I was raised in,
56:29that people are starting to understand that. And I think that there is, we are not just shouting
56:35into the void and we are not alone. Obviously you and I are not the only people speaking out
56:40against this. And so as much as of course, I am upset and frustrated by the state of the world and
56:46state of the, the new apostolic reformation world. I do think that this, this victim first
56:53view of compassion is, is probably the most salient way to attack and dismantle
57:01these structures of power and control that have been established.
57:06Absolutely. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on
57:10the web. You can find us at william-brannum.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic
57:16reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR, available on Amazon,
57:22Kindle, and Audible.
57:52For more information, you can find us at william-brannum.com.
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