Revolutionizing Growth: The Empathic Framework of Leadership (Tullio Siragusa Interview)

Name: Revolutionizing Growth: The Empathic Framework of Leadership (Tullio Siragusa Interview)
Uploaded: 2025-08-07T19:23:38+00:00
Duration: 58 min 9 s
Channel: Workforce Alchemy

Workforce Alchemy

Revolutionizing Growth: The Empathic Framework of Leadership (Tullio Siragusa Interview)

Can you scale your company without hiring more people?

According to Tullio Siragusa, the answer is yes—and it starts with empathy, collaboration, and removing friction.

In this episode, Tullio breaks down how emotional intelligence, self-awareness, and cultural transformation can lead to exponential growth without headcount bloat. We explore how to build self-managed teams, create collective accountability, and maintain human connection in an increasingly automated world.

If you're looking to grow smarter, not just bigger—this one's for you.

- Full Podcast Episode:
https://shows.acast.com/themasonduchatschekshow/episodes/revolutionizing-growth-the-empathic-framework-of-leadership

- Key Takeaways from This Episode:

Scale by removing friction—not just adding people

Empathy creates competitive business advantages

Emotional intelligence is critical for modern leadership

Vulnerability builds trust and psychological safety

AI adoption needs cultural readiness, not just tech upgrades

Self-management and ownership drive performance

Relationships and connection outweigh pure efficiency

- Chapters:

00:00 Scaling Without Hiring: A New Approach
04:08 The Science of Growth: Learning from Failures
11:21 Creating Collective Self-Awareness in Organizations
17:45 Removing Friction: The Key to Business Success
20:46 Empath IQ Framework: Unlocking Potential
27:55 Overcoming CEO Fears: Embracing Self-Management
30:17 The Power of Accountability and Profit Sharing
30:58 Empowerment Through Ownership and Team Dynamics
31:58 Friendship Model vs. Family Model in Teams
33:21 The Impact of Self-Management on Profitability
34:54 Collective Genius vs. Command and Control
35:30 Empathy in Customer Experience
39:35 The Human Element in Business Transactions
41:13 Scaling Without Stress: The Role of Communication
44:34 Vulnerability as a Leadership Strength
48:03 AI and Emotional Intelligence in Leadership
56:13 The Future of Leadership: Emotions as Data

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Start the FREE Workforce Alchemy Challenge to increase your workplace value, improve retention, and develop an irreplaceable team.

https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com

- About This Channel:
The Mason Duchatschek Show shares unfiltered conversations with thought leaders, authors, and experts across business strategy, leadership, workforce optimization, and growth. Subscribe to learn how to outthink, out-lead, and outperform your competition.

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00:00What if your company could triple its capacity without hiring a single new person?

00:05Today's guest, Tulio Siragusa, has helped companies generate over $3 billion in revenue

00:09and navigate more than $2 billion in successful exits.

00:13But here's what makes him different.

00:14He does it by combining emotional intelligence, neuroscience, and system design.

00:20Not just spreadsheets and strategy decks.

00:22Tulio is the creator of the Empathic Framework, founder of Inventrica Advisory,

00:28and a trusted advisor to academic institutions and AI think tanks alike.

00:33His approach to scaling without burnout, building self-managed organizations,

00:38and using empathy as a competitive advantage is flipping traditional leadership models on their head.

00:43I'm really excited to have him with us today.

00:46He's here to challenge how we think about growth, culture, and leadership in the modern workplace

00:50and share real-world strategies that work both for scrappy startups and billion-dollar enterprises.

00:57Tulio, welcome to the show.

00:59I've been looking forward to this conversation for weeks.

01:02Thanks for having me.

01:03I'm looking forward to it as well.

01:04So let's start with scale.

01:06You've helped companies reach over $3 billion in revenue.

01:09When you walk into a business, what tells you that it's not actually designed to scale?

01:14Well, the first thing I notice is the decision-making bottlenecks.

01:18If everything flows through the founder or a handful of leaders, that's a red flag.

01:23You also see disjointed systems, teams that are working really hard, but they're not working

01:29in sync.

01:30It's sort of like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

01:34And when growth is tied to individual heroics instead of systemic capabilities, that's also

01:40another red flag.

01:41And that's when I know that scale will break instead of grow with them.

01:45Interesting.

01:46What's the biggest myth about growth that keeps founders and CEOs stuck, especially during

01:51post-funding or the post-exit phases?

01:54So I think one of the thing I noticed the most is specifically, for example, in startups,

02:00when they reach a certain revenue number and they start to do another round of funding,

02:06the mindset is, okay, we've got to go hire people now.

02:09And you end up hiring a bunch of VPs, usually VP of sales or marketing or VP of customer success.

02:16And they're not really building out a team.

02:18They're like individual contributor slash coach who might have another person working

02:23for them.

02:23So it's like a team of two.

02:25Now you're holding a million dollars a year burn rate for very many teams.

02:31And scaling more people and more headcount doesn't exactly equate to more growth.

02:36And I see this constantly after funding round or exits because leaders think the next stage

02:42is about hiring fast.

02:43But if your systems are set up in such a way where you can't scale, they're not set up to

02:48create collaboration, they have too many silos, which happens when you hire these four VPs

02:53and they create their own mini micro teams, you've ended up with four or five different

02:57silos.

02:58What happens is real growth is stifled because there's friction there.

03:03And growth comes from removing friction.

03:04The less frictionless the experience, the more growth you can have.

03:08Every one of those mini kingdoms, it's a friction point.

03:12Silos equal friction points.

03:14So the biggest myth is that you scale by hiring more people.

03:19And it's quite the opposite.

03:20You can scale faster by removing friction by creating more collaboration that doesn't

03:25necessarily equate to more people.

03:27I don't remember who it was.

03:28Otherwise, I'd be happy to cite them.

03:29But I read a lot.

03:30And someone made a quote that has always stuck with me.

03:33It said, you grow out of desire, not out of demand.

03:36You grow out of demand, not out of desire.

03:38You add the people in accordance with what your systems and what the work requires.

03:42Not like, oh, we desire to grow.

03:43So we're just going to add these people and we'll figure out how to make it happen.

03:46It's appreciate and respect what you're saying there.

03:49And I agree with you.

03:49I think the biggest challenge is that a lot of companies don't put enough attention on

03:54the value of learning and growing together.

03:59Can you expound on that a bit?

04:00Yeah.

04:01We can institutionalize the process of learning and growing.

04:05If you can bring a scientific approach to building a business, you become unstoppable.

04:10And what I mean by a scientific approach, when you think of science, every discovery has

04:15been made through a number of permutation that have been nothing more but a slew of failures

04:22or the way I like to call them, successful ways to prove a method that didn't work.

04:28So when in science, it's built into the success equation, failures built into the success equation.

04:34And I want to repeat that because this is an important distinction that science has adopted

04:40over the years in terms of discoveries.

04:43You go through a lot of trials to find the right formula.

04:46But in business, somehow we don't follow that process.

04:49And partly because we're still holding on to the Industrial Revolution way of doing things.

04:56So let's just talk about that for a second.

04:58It took about 400 years before the Industrial Revolution took flight from the agricultural age.

05:04Like it took that long to realize the value of the Industrial Revolution because we held

05:10on to our old ways of doing things.

05:12Now, in the Industrial Revolution, you had very direct type of processes, rigid processes,

05:18because they were designed to safeguard people's lives.

05:22If you're manufacturing something, you can't have too many mistakes.

05:26You have to have processes which safeguards people's lives.

05:29So it was a matter of life of death, not following rigid processes, right?

05:33So it served its purpose.

05:35But in the knowledge age, that command and control, rigid approach to doing thing,

05:41systematic approach of doing thing, it doesn't work because it stifles innovation.

05:45It stifles the human element of what makes knowledge become wisdom.

05:50And so what you end up having is these behaviors where instead of learning and growing and collaborating

05:56together, everyone is making sure they're fitting into the model that checks off the boxes

06:01of having all these things in place.

06:03So how companies grow is very systemic with checking off the boxes.

06:08It's like we're still doing manufacturing.

06:10The way we run our business is like we're still doing manufacturing.

06:14It couldn't be the farthest thing from being wrong.

06:16We're not manufacturing anything.

06:18We're operationalizing the intelligence and the ability of people.

06:22And in order to get the best out of that, you have to get them growing and learning together

06:26and be able to create a model where you can take risks collectively and learn through those

06:32collective wisdom, the things that don't work and make sure you're pivoting along the way

06:36to get to a place that you can codify the success ongoing.

06:40Can you give me an example of what that looks like at maybe one of your client companies?

06:43What does that look like?

06:44So for example, quite often, one of the first things I do with clients is a force field analysis.

06:51It was invented in the 1950s.

06:54And think of it this way.

06:55When you're working towards a goal, it's like you have a bunch of people pushing a boulder

07:00up a mountain.

07:01Those are the things that are working to your advantage towards achieving that goal.

07:05On the other side of the boulder, you have hidden forces and some visible forces that are

07:11pushing against you.

07:13So you're pushing the boulder up the mountain, but you've got stuff pushing against you.

07:17So it's a constant battle.

07:19And most organizations aren't aware of a lot of those hidden forces.

07:23Some of them are internal.

07:24Some of them are external.

07:26Those are what I call friction points, right?

07:29And those friction points could be psychological, cultural, or operational.

07:33So what I uncover is what are those friction points?

07:37And we have a very raw and honest conversation.

07:39And it's usually not just with the leadership.

07:41It's a collective input.

07:43So one of the requirements for these force field analysis is to have representation from

07:47every department in the organization.

07:49Because what I'm looking for is the truth, is the hidden truth of what's truly going on.

07:54Now, when you identify those...

07:56That's not an easy task.

07:58No, it's not.

07:59That's not something I want to gloss over on.

08:00That tool is phenomenal if I do it.

08:02I learned it in McKinsey & Company over almost 30 years ago.

08:05And I have really worked on it.

08:07I've done it for post-M&A integration efforts.

08:10I've done it for your reorganizational efforts.

08:12I use it even from account planning perspective.

08:15It's a fantastic tool.

08:16You can even use it for your personal life.

08:18And it's very smart of you to bring in all of the people from the different departments

08:24because I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but there are so many business owners

08:28and executives who get a watered-down version of what the truth is because the people between

08:36where the rubber meets the road and where they are have a vested interest in making sure

08:39the boss doesn't hear bad news.

08:42Right.

08:42And they don't want any blames for it.

08:44That's a mistake because-

08:46Of course it is.

08:47You're limiting your view.

08:48It's like an ostrich when it's headed in the sand.

08:50Correct.

08:51If you're an executive who doesn't like real raw feedback, you're like an ostrich with your

08:55head in the sand.

08:56Or you might be a megalomaniac.

08:58You might need some therapy.

08:59You know, and that happens too, right?

09:01It does.

09:02What you don't want is everybody to just agree with you because just to validate you.

09:06You actually want the truth and you can argue to get to the truth because ultimately

09:10it's about the company.

09:11And the hard thing about that without a system like what you're describing where everyone's

09:17involved is if you just have one person who is speaking the truth and it's not popular

09:22and the boss doesn't want to hear it, it can be very easy for the boss or the executives

09:27to get rid of the one troublemaker who's deaf enough to be a troublemaker, someone who's

09:34just not bending the knee and complying with their every single wish because they're actually

09:38got some ethics and they're saying, hey, boss, this is an issue.

09:42This is important.

09:43We need to do it.

09:44And the boss doesn't want to hear that.

09:46And some executives will make it easier just to get rid of that voice than to address the

09:52issues, which they should.

09:53But in the environment you're describing, it makes it safer because there are everyone

09:59there sees what's going on.

10:01And I would imagine that if you had an executive who did the ostrich move and did have their

10:06head in the sand that they might pull it out if everyone across these department heads

10:12were saying, this is real, this is real, this is real, this is real.

10:15So I respect and appreciate your approach to that.

10:17Most bosses that operate that way, they wouldn't be open to this kind of analysis, right?

10:22Right.

10:24They, you know, it's the dirty secret of the megalomaniac is that they're incredibly insecure.

10:29So their validation of themselves or their own worth is based on how many people agree

10:33with them.

10:34So if you don't agree with them, it's death through insecurity for you.

10:37You're literally threatening their own sense of self-worth.

10:41That's why they fire people that don't agree with them.

10:43They're incredibly insecure.

10:44So, but the way I do this analysis, it creates a safe environment for people to talk about

10:50because they're not talking about individuals or departments.

10:52They're just bubbling up what they're seeing.

10:54And I usually start with the positive, right?

10:56So everyone's feeling good about everything the company's done.

10:59And then we talk about, let's talk about what, you know, what's really going on, what's

11:02working against this, what's not in place, what could be in place, what tailwinds exist

11:06or what headwinds exist in the marketplace, your competitors and so on and so forth.

11:10And the way I think about it is this, when you are working on yourself,

11:13to transform yourself, to be becoming something greater than you are today, the very foundational

11:20work you have to do initially to activate emotional intelligence is self-awareness.

11:27That is foundational to being able to go to where you are right now, to where you want

11:32to be.

11:33And that self-awareness is the part that allows you to not live in your aspirational truth.

11:38Because many of us have a version of who we want to be.

11:41That's our aspirational truth.

11:43But we state it as if we're there.

11:45That's lacking self-awareness.

11:47So what happens is you're starting at a point which is your aspirational version of yourself.

11:52And you're trying to get from this point to a higher point.

11:55But you're kind of down here still.

11:57So there are steps you're skipping, which is why people often struggle.

11:59It's like, I can't break through.

12:01Well, because you're not starting at the point where you need to be starting, which requires

12:04honesty, self-honesty.

12:06So that self-awareness is the beginning of growth for an individual.

12:10But how do you create a collective self-awareness for a company?

12:14So the way I do it is I treat the company like a living organism.

12:18And all we're doing is collectively identifying where the company is in reality through this

12:24self-awareness exercise.

12:25And then I can uncover where we need to go based on that.

12:28But the way we do it is we practice doing it collectively.

12:31And then once you identify all the things that we need to work on, the next step is I get

12:35people collaborating towards those things they need to work on by introducing collaborative

12:40OKRs, which, you know, they're different.

12:43They're not owner-based.

12:44They're champions.

12:45They're supporters.

12:46And there's observers.

12:47So I introduce this idea of everyone can participate on these things.

12:52Pick the goals that resonate the most with you.

12:54Participate on those teams.

12:56Become members of that leadership team.

12:58And if there's something you've never done that you want to learn about, join that team

13:02as an observer.

13:03And quite often when those teams get together to move the needle and move the ball forward,

13:07the observers offer some incredible insights, wisdom that comes out of nowhere.

13:13I love what you're talking about.

13:15What you're talking about, I love this.

13:17Because as decision makers, your decision is only as sounds of facts in which they're based.

13:22And you can't be everywhere.

13:23And you can't see everything.

13:25And you have to rely on the leaders who are all throughout your organization.

13:29And if they don't feel listened to, or they don't feel a part of, or they don't feel engaged

13:34in the process, then you're kind of out on an island by yourself.

13:38And that's a lot tougher.

13:40And absolutely.

13:41I love what you're talking about.

13:43This system activates the four critical tenets of a highly engaged culture.

13:49What are those?

13:49So when I co-founded RadicalPurpose.org, there were a bunch of self-management practitioners

13:55that came together.

13:56Morningstar practitioner, Teal practitioner, sociocracy, holography, all these different

14:01systems, self-management system.

14:03We all came together.

14:05Some of the, what I call royalty of self-management were more my co-founders.

14:09And we also had organizational psychologists that joined.

14:11And for two years, we dug into what creates highly engaged cultures.

14:16And we landed on four tenets.

14:18And those four tenets happened to be the truth of what matters to each and every one of us

14:23as human beings.

14:24Number one, it's the need to belong to something greater than ourselves, which is why religion

14:29and politics is so big.

14:30Number two, it's the ability to have meaning behind what we're doing.

14:35Same reason why those systems are also very big.

14:38And why people have families.

14:40And why people start things and create things.

14:42You're trying to put meaning behind your life, right?

14:44Number three is the ability to make an impact, to have an impact.

14:48That's why people join and become entrepreneurs.

14:50That's why people join movements, activism, having a family, building a house, creating

14:56something.

14:56It's the ability to have an impact.

14:58Number four is the ability to be becoming, to become something greater than you are, which

15:03is why the self-help industry is like, what, a trillion dollars?

15:06Sure.

15:06Innate desire to become more.

15:09So what I'm introducing through these collaborative efforts is this idea of belonging to something

15:16greater than yourself because we're opening it up to everyone in the organization.

15:20So now if you're a software developer and there's a need to refund the go-to-market strategy,

15:25you may have never worked on a go-to-market strategy.

15:28You may never get a chance to work on a go-to-market strategy.

15:31But you're like, I'm really curious about what that's about.

15:33Now I get to participate on something that I normally would have never gotten a chance to

15:37participate in, so I get to be becoming, but I also have some input there, so I have an

15:43impact.

15:44And that makes me feel like I'm part of something greater than just my department, my silo,

15:49right?

15:49And it gives more meaning to what I'm doing because I get to participate in the bigger

15:53picture and do more.

15:54So we're activating these principles in this process of collaborating.

15:59And then week in, week out, we do daily, we do weekly stand-ups, like very agile stand-ups

16:04where we track the results, what's moving, and we do a yellow, red, green flag approach

16:09to it.

16:10And we talk about the yellow flags.

16:12And the yellow flags are basically opportunities to say, I need some help.

16:15I've hit a snag or hit a challenge.

16:18We'd love some help.

16:19So it's not so much as like, I'm off track, I'm not doing my job, right?

16:23And a red flag is more about, we've taken on more than we can chew, and maybe we should

16:28hold off.

16:29This is not the right quarter to pursue this.

16:31We don't have the right settings in place.

16:32It's not a sign of a failure.

16:34It's a sign that we took on more than we could chew.

16:36And a green flag, hey, we don't need to talk about the stuff that are in traction because

16:40we've got 20 minutes to do the stand-up, right?

16:42So what ends up happening over a couple of quarters, you've got an environment where everything

16:46used to funnel from the top down, and that's being turned upside down.

16:50Now you've got everyone collaborating equally.

16:53And one of the things I encourage the executive team is participate in this process with a sense

16:58of equivalence.

16:59In other words, don't be the boss in this process.

17:02Participate like everybody else.

17:04You'll have visibility, transparency to what's going on.

17:07You have experience so you can coach the team.

17:09You can be a champion for a lot of these things, but you're not the owner.

17:13We're trying to create a model where people step into leadership as well and take ownership

17:18of what organization needs.

17:20What that requires over time is more transparency.

17:23Let the team know what's going on in the business.

17:25Share the financials in the business.

17:27As you get better at this, the team will be more than happy to take on more challenges

17:32because they're coming at it from a place of ownership.

17:34They're not, somebody else isn't dictating what they need to do.

17:37They have created what needs to happen.

17:39Now here's the beautiful thing about doing this collaboratively.

17:42When you're going through a transformation, if you just do it at the top and you decide

17:46what needs to happen, now you've got to go on this process, this change management

17:50process where you've got to go sell it to the organization, convince the organization

17:54why it's a good idea, and nobody feels good about it because nobody likes, we're adults,

17:59we're not children.

18:00No one wants to be told what to do.

18:02So you get resistance and it takes a long time to get an adoption.

18:07And in some cases, the adoption fails.

18:09And you're like, well, the plan was good.

18:10The plan was good from a limited point of view.

18:13You didn't get the collective wisdom of what the company was willing to do and gave ownership

18:17to the company from the beginning.

18:18You decided and pushed it down.

18:21People don't argue or resist what they consider their own ideas.

18:24Exactly.

18:25So when you have people collaborating and inputting on what we need to focus on, they already own

18:31it.

18:31There's no selling.

18:32They're part of the process.

18:33It's built in.

18:35So things move faster and with less friction.

18:38All I'm doing in everything that I do, Mason, is removing friction.

18:42Friction is the enemy of all business.

18:45It is.

18:46The less friction, the better.

18:47And that's not just internal friction.

18:49That's also friction of how your clients do business with you.

18:52The less friction your clients have doing business with you, the easier you ought to

18:57do business with, the better you succeed in the marketplace.

19:00And this can't be disconjointed.

19:02You can't have less friction with the clients without less friction internally.

19:06They have to be in sync.

19:08And so when we look at-

19:10I'm going to piggyback on what you're saying there.

19:11Why are you talking about friction as a client?

19:13I've mentioned this in one of my other podcasts, but I've got banking relationships.

19:17But I fired one of my bankers that I have been using for a long time because it became

19:24hard work to be a customer.

19:25And regular part of our conversation, the words were used, well, you have to.

19:31You have to log into our app.

19:32You have to create a password.

19:34You have to stop by the bank.

19:35You have to come in.

19:36And I heard you have to so many times.

19:39I'm like, I don't work for you.

19:40Those were points of friction that were absolutely unnecessary.

19:44And by stark contrast, the bank I switched to used the exact opposite of those words.

19:49We'll do this for you so you don't have to.

19:51And I was like, I found my home.

19:53And so when you talk about friction as a customer, that's a very hot button for me right

19:58now as a customer.

20:00And the same things apply inside a company.

20:02I guarantee you the bank you left, the employees are not happy there.

20:06I guarantee you're right.

20:07And the bank you just went to, the employees are happier there.

20:09Because you can't fake that.

20:11It has to be systemic.

20:12The entire organization has to operate that way in order for it to be reflected into the

20:16marketplace.

20:17And when I tried to tell them.

20:19It doesn't come out as genuine because they're not living it.

20:21It's interesting you said that because when I told them, like, look, I'm going to leave.

20:24This isn't acceptable.

20:25They're like, well, you're going to leave anyway.

20:27Like, literally.

20:28So we don't care.

20:31Because the employees don't care to be there either.

20:33They don't.

20:34They straight up told me, like, well, you're going to leave anyway.

20:36So why bother?

20:37And I'm like, thank you for making it easier.

20:40It's a reflection of the culture.

20:41So speaking of cultures, you're, I want to make sure I'm pronouncing it.

20:45Is it empathic?

20:46Because I know it's spelled.

20:47Empath IQ.

20:48I call it the Empath IQ framework.

20:50Okay, and I mispronounced it.

20:51So Empath IQ framework claims to triple a company's capacity without increasing head

20:55count.

20:56And I know that sounds grandiose.

20:58But what does that actually look like in practice?

21:01Well, it starts by then finding the friction points that I mentioned, right?

21:05And it's often psychological, cultural, and operational.

21:08So I look at all three elements.

21:10And then here's the thing.

21:11When you remove the silos, because that takes time.

21:15Like a department has to go talk to another department head and another department head.

21:18And then they have to get a rubber stamp of approval.

21:19That whole thing takes so much time.

21:22When you start acting collaboratively into pods and you break those silos down, things

21:27move very quickly.

21:28So what often happens is the reason you need more people is because there's so many steps.

21:33You need more bandwidth.

21:34But when you remove all those little friction points, you compress the bandwidth.

21:39You get more done faster.

21:40People get to do what they do best and like to do most also.

21:43That's true.

21:44And then there's also this other piece, right?

21:46This is why it's so important.

21:47And the best way I can describe this is I often give this example of a baby elephant tied

21:54to a pole.

21:54It tries to break free over and over for years, but it can't.

21:59It's not strong enough.

22:00And then the elephant becomes a behemoth giant.

22:03And it's so strong, it could break free of that pole like this, but it doesn't even try

22:08because it believes it can't.

22:10So when you are transforming your business or you're going into growth mode or you're going

22:15from the as is to where you want to be, the mindset of the team plays a big role in their

22:21ability to step into that capacity.

22:24So if there's belief systems that are limiting, you have to rewire those belief systems in

22:30order to step into that future state.

22:33Now, what a lot of companies do is they fire those teams and bring in a new staff that has

22:37that mindset to move it forward.

22:38That's very typical of what happens.

22:40And you're taking a risk that those people that you're hiring actually have that mindset.

22:46So what I do is I use neuroscience technique to identify the individuals that are sort of

22:52have the baby elephant mindset.

22:54And help them rewire.

22:56Can you give me an example of that?

22:57What does that look like?

22:59Well, for example, I'll give you one example.

23:01I actually had one coaching client, a serial entrepreneur.

23:05And what I discovered with him was that he sort of gets things in motion, but then says,

23:10I always kind of reach this wall that I don't follow through past it.

23:15And I'm like, well, that's interesting.

23:17Something must have happened when you were younger.

23:19I'm like, was there something before you were nine?

23:21Was there a moment where you wanted to do something, but someone made you feel like you

23:26couldn't?

23:27And he was like, yeah, yeah.

23:28I was seven years old and I love art.

23:32But I wasn't very good at it.

23:34And a teacher said, yeah, there's no future for you in art.

23:37And so I stopped trying.

23:39So you created this belief that even if you love something, eventually you should give

23:44up because maybe you're not good at it.

23:47So could you see how that belief is not serving you today?

23:50Because you start a business and then you have a belief, maybe you're not good at this.

23:55So you should stop before someone rejects you or puts you down.

23:58So you're stopped because you're trying to avoid the pain that you experienced when you're

24:02seven years old, when someone let you down and told you you weren't good at art.

24:05So we had to create a new mantra that changed that belief so he could feel like he is deserving

24:11of success, that he is going to be able to follow through.

24:15And it's a 90-day process.

24:17It doesn't happen overnight.

24:19But after 90 days, it changed him dramatically.

24:23He successfully grew that business, continued to grow the business.

24:27And then we coached again.

24:28We identified some other issues and the belief around follow-up or some complacency.

24:33And we worked through that one because there's always more.

24:36I imagine one of the biggest challenges for those folks is just even identifying the disempowering

24:40beliefs first.

24:40Because then when you really think about it as an adult, looking back at it, like you can

24:43understand where a child would have felt that way.

24:45But as an adult, you can look back at that and say, wow, like that is ludicrous.

24:49And that is an obstacle for me.

24:51And I can make the choice to move past that.

24:54Just like the baby elephant, when it grows up, can make the choice to pull on that post again

24:58and get out.

24:58Like I get it.

24:59For me, it's so much training, but it's also a gift because I personally experienced that.

25:05I would get to a point that I would just sabotage myself.

25:08Like I couldn't break through the ceiling.

25:11I felt like I was cursed.

25:12And I had a neuroscience coach who helped me break through my own limited beliefs.

25:17And I fell in love with it because I was like, I need to learn this so I can help my team.

25:21If my team has ever challenged with hitting that wall, I want to be able to help them.

25:25I want to be a better leader by being in service to them.

25:27So I learned those principles just to be a better leader.

25:31And then it's become part of my practice now as a fractional executive and as a coach.

25:35But it's so powerful because you can have the most amazing plan, strategically aligned.

25:42All the tactics make sense.

25:44But if people will only follow through on them if they believe they can.

25:48And you have to look and identify those limiting beliefs that hold people back.

25:52And rather than firing those people and changing them, you can coach them.

25:56And then they step into that capacity.

25:58And they're so grateful because they just had a breakthrough.

26:01And they have the breakthrough on your time, on your dime.

26:04And guess how much loyal they become to the company that helped them have such an important breakthrough for themselves.

26:10So it's a gift that keeps on giving.

26:12And yes, it is a bit of a gift.

26:14Like because I went through it, I can see it and I can identify it.

26:17In fact, I did this podcast.

26:19I did four seasons of it.

26:20It's called the Rant and Grow podcast.

26:22And the first two seasons when I became a certified coach, I just wanted to practice.

26:27And I'm like, I'm going to do an experiment.

26:28And I'm going to invite folks that want to have free coaching.

26:32But in return, they have to be willing to be on my podcast.

26:35That's fair deal.

26:36And two seasons of this, in 30 minutes, I could identify the problem.

26:41Every single guest.

26:42And I was like, this is an experiment because I was able to prove to myself, I might be on to something here.

26:47And I might have a unique gift or ability, God-given ability to really get to the hidden problem.

26:54I'm not a therapist.

26:56But I think the desire, once you activate that empathy, you could see things that you would otherwise miss.

27:03Because you're so tuned in to wanting to be of service to someone that it's almost like the intuition kicks in.

27:10So between the training and that gift, I could see it.

27:12And in 30 minutes, if you watch, if you listen to any of these shows, in 30 minutes, I could identify exactly what was going on.

27:17And then we develop some mantras to rewire the thinking, rewire the brain.

27:22And every single one of them, every single one of them gave me five stars because they had breakthrough transformation in their personal lives.

27:29So I've implemented that into the organization because you're making significant change.

27:33You're collaborating.

27:34Biggest challenge now, if you're the CEO, is, well, my self-worth was tied to being the boss.

27:39Now you're telling me I have to be more of a mentor?

27:42So I was going to ask about that because obviously you're a proponent of self-managed organizations.

27:48And what are some of the biggest fears CEOs have about decentralizing control?

27:53And how do you suggest they move through that?

27:55The biggest fear is loss of control.

27:57But that loss of control is tied to a belief that was sold to many of us for many years.

28:03This idea that you have reached the pinnacle of your career once you become the CEO.

28:09So you climb the ladder and once you're the CEO, you have arrived.

28:13Only to realize most of the time it's lonely up there.

28:16It's isolating and lonely and often it's a duplicative way of living because you have to be a certain way at the office and then at home you get to be yourself.

28:23It's exhausting in that context.

28:26And that's something I can relate to, too.

28:28And I know other people who can because, you know, when you do run a business, there are some times where there's people that you want to reach out to and you want to get feedback.

28:35But you have to be careful in what you share because there are unintended consequences with how people interpret your ideas and your perspectives.

28:44It can open Pandora's box and create a bunch of unnecessary drama and conflict and create additional problems that you don't want or need.

28:52And that's why they have to internalize that unless I understand what you're saying.

28:57It's a real thing because culturally they're part of the machine, too, right?

29:01And the machine spits you out if you don't play it by its rules.

29:04So they imagine loss of control.

29:07They imagine chaos.

29:08But in reality, self-management requires more structure, but just the right kind.

29:13What I help CEOs is see that they can give people clear purpose and shared outcomes, but they don't need to be micromanaged.

29:19That's fair.

29:20More trust, more tools, and more transparency.

29:22There are two rules to self-management.

29:25Number one, no violence, which means you can't force or no force, right?

29:31Which means you can't force anybody to do anything.

29:33You can't coerce anybody to do things.

29:35You can't use fear tactics.

29:37No force.

29:38And number two, 100% self-accountability, which means, hey, you're free to choose which OKR you want to participate in, but you're not free to do nothing.

29:48You are 100% accountable to create value to the company, but you get to do it on your terms.

29:54You can't bow out and say, self-management, I can do whatever I want.

29:58No, it's not like that.

29:59You have accountability.

30:01Now, the difference in a command and control environment, you could be an employee that can hide out for months because you've got one boss, large organization, you can hide out for months.

30:10In a self-management environment, you can't hide out for more than a week because the team will hold you accountable.

30:16Hey, what are you doing?

30:17Where are you?

30:17It's funny you talk about the team holding you accountable.

30:19I had a guest on.

30:20His name is Rob Gallagher, and he wrote a book on profit sharing.

30:25And I probably ought to connect the two of you because he really got me to understand.

30:29You talk about the team holding you accountable.

30:31Well, what motivates the team to hold someone accountable?

30:33And his particular argument was that if they're involved in profit sharing, then everyone's in it together, and they're always looking for ways.

30:40They're incentivized to find ways to capture revenue streams and to cut costs and work together better as a team for their overall good.

30:50So I'm starting to connect some dots here between what you're talking about and ways to incentivize people to actually execute what you're talking about in effective ways.

30:59Compensation does drive behavior, but not all of it.

31:02Agreed.

31:03Compensation is part of the equation here, but it's a bonus, right?

31:06Agreed.

31:07What I'm looking for is how to activate those four tenants we talked about.

31:10Fair.

31:11When the team takes that ownership, there's a sense of autonomy and empowerment that comes with that, which is important to all of us.

31:19And then what I push for is not this family model that people talk about.

31:23We're a family.

31:24Why would you want to be a family?

31:26Families are sometimes dysfunctional.

31:27You got some family members you don't want to really spend a whole lot of time with, but you don't have a choice because they're family members.

31:33But in a friendship model, you choose your friends.

31:36And what do true friends do?

31:38They look out for each other.

31:39They don't compete with each other.

31:40They celebrate each other's wins.

31:42Two, they support each other when one is down.

31:45And three, they don't sell each other out.

31:47They call each other out when one is falling off track.

31:50Hey, man, you're going off the rails here.

31:53I'm going to reel you in, right?

31:54And you can have that conversation because friendship is based on mutual love and empathy.

31:59So in a model where the team operates like friends, if you're deciding to hide out, your friends will call you out.

32:06What are you doing?

32:06What's going on here, right?

32:08And the rule in self-management is not one person can fire you, but anyone in the organization can fire you,

32:15which means anyone can bring about a case and say, you're weak link.

32:18We need to have a committee to talk to you about this.

32:21What's going on?

32:21The goal is to correct the issue, but the team can decide that you're not living the standards and the values that embody what the team wants.

32:29You know what?

32:30And that's fair because that's fair because that individual may be able to give that feedback to the team and say,

32:36you know what, thank you for coming here and let's have this conversation because I'm not getting this.

32:41I'm not getting this.

32:42I'm not getting this.

32:43I'm not getting this.

32:44And these are some things that I need from you in order to do what you want me to do.

32:48But you haven't given me these things or you haven't given me these things in a timely fashion.

32:52And if you can correct that, then the problem is solved because I will execute everything that you've given me.

32:56That's what friends do.

32:57And that's what we're trying to create.

32:59So when you compare that model, the self-management I just described, to the traditional command and control model,

33:06it's not hard to see which one will generate better results.

33:10Agreed.

33:10So different questions.

33:11And there are stats that prove it.

33:13That's the beautiful thing.

33:15It's not just good for people.

33:16It's strategic.

33:17It's strategic in the outcome that it can create.

33:21Way like X more profitability.

33:23This has been tracked and proven.

33:26So there's an impact it has on the business.

33:28It's a material impact it has on the business.

33:31So if you're the CEO and you're all about shareholder value, you're actually not all about shareholder value if you're not creating a model where people can collaborate and work together to generate that value.

33:42Because the more controls just means compliance.

33:45Compliance creates no innovation and creates disengagement.

33:49Disengagement reduces productivity.

33:52I'm going to drop it.

33:52The opposite happens.

33:53So I've mentioned this in one of my other interviews and podcasts, but it's very relevant here because not every person watches all of these episodes.

34:03But you talked about command and control.

34:04The downside from my perspective, and I wish I knew who the speaker was, but he talked about the power of collective genius.

34:10And what he talked about was he had a group seminar attendance and he gave everybody like an IQ test and said, hey, you know, you got this much time, answer these questions, go.

34:21And of course, they scored them.

34:23And there was a couple of people who were very, very bright geniuses, we'll call them.

34:26But then he said, okay, we're going to do a section two, which is basically different questions, same time frame.

34:31But I want person one, two, three, four, you're a team.

34:34One, two, three, four, you're a team.

34:35One, two, three, four, you're a team.

34:36And what they found out was that all of those teams did better than the smartest individual.

34:42What he was making the point of was collective genius.

34:44And when you have a command and control, even if that person on top is a genius, he is no match for the collective genius of a team working together.

34:52So I love what you're talking about.

34:53And that's why.

34:54I mean, culture eats strategy for lunch any time.

34:58And even from a market positioning perspective, culture is the marketing you can't fake.

35:04So it also resonates with your customers.

35:06Because ultimately what you're trying to do is create a community.

35:09And that community extends internally and externally to the organization.

35:13So when you have connection, resonance, people feel supported, it translates into the experience your customers will have, i.e. the banking experience you're talking about, right?

35:23They're very compliant, structured.

35:26It's like being run like a manufacturing, like an industrial machine.

35:31So they're using industrial revolution thinking into the modern knowledge space.

35:37It doesn't work.

35:38The modern knowledge space is all about innovation and system thinking and intelligence and empathy.

35:43I'm going to touch on another.

35:45You talk about empathy and intelligence.

35:48I'm going to give you a, this was not my personal experience.

35:50One of my friends is a pastor at a church and was offering some additional assistance to an elderly lady in a wheelchair and not capable of getting around.

35:59And she's widowed and in terrible health.

36:02And she needed to go to, and I'm not, I'm not the type to call out the particular banks, but this particular giant bank.

36:09And he was calling on her behalf to help her get accounts.

36:13I guess he needs some kind of legal letter or something like that.

36:16Some paperwork was called paperwork that needed to be signed.

36:19And it was impossible to get the branch manager to talk like an empathetic human being.

36:24It was, hi, I'm so-and-so, employee number so-and-so, and for your, I need to disclose that this call is being recorded.

36:30And she proceeded to talk like a robot reading her script.

36:34And the bottom line is you have to come to the bank to get this filled out, or she has to come to the bank and sign this.

36:40And he's like, that's horrible friction, horrible work on my part as someone who's trying to help your customer.

36:47And the lady was, you have to come to the bank.

36:49You have to come to the bank.

36:50Well, long story short, they fired that bank.

36:53And the alternative bank they went with was a community bank.

36:56And guess what happened to that branch manager?

36:57Branch manager, we'll send someone out with a notary public and the paperwork you need.

37:01We'll come to you.

37:01See, that's beautiful.

37:03That's an empathetic company.

37:04That's an empathetic company.

37:05That's using intelligence and human.

37:07And the other one is robotic and manufactured.

37:10And in a world that's transforming before of our eyes towards AI and things like that,

37:15these companies that are human and empathetic and use intelligence, I think, are going to separate themselves quickly.

37:23It's going to be a competitive advantage.

37:24Empathy will always win, always.

37:26And another example I give is, let's say you're going for a job interview and you decide, I'm going to go buy a suit.

37:33I mean, buying a suit is just a transaction, just like that was just a transaction.

37:38So the transaction can be done at the branch or it could be done with someone going out with a notary public and doing it in person, being of service, right?

37:46I just want to buy a suit because what do I need the suit for?

37:49Well, I want to show up powerful.

37:50I want to be confident in this interview.

37:53That's really what I'm looking for.

37:54The suit is just a transaction.

37:56I can go buy that suit anywhere.

37:57I go visit five stores and I find one store.

38:01The salesperson's asked me, what are you looking for?

38:03I'm looking for a suit.

38:04What is it for?

38:05I've got an interview coming up.

38:06Oh, what kind of job is it?

38:07And they get into a conversation.

38:09It's like, so tell me, how do you want to show up at this interview?

38:12Oh, I really want to show up powerful and confident.

38:15That's what I'm striving for.

38:16My salesman says, I got two suits that I think will do that for you.

38:20Let me show them to you.

38:21And they happen to be the more expensive suits.

38:24Because the person wearing it knows it's an expensive suit.

38:27That's what matters.

38:28It's not anybody else, but the person wearing it.

38:30Now you go there and you're not really buying the suits.

38:32You're buying what the suits can give you, which aligns with what you want it to feel powerful and confident.

38:37What's that feeling?

38:39And it's a job interview.

38:40So it's important for me.

38:41So I will spend more money because I connect to this idea that it gives me the feeling, the emotion.

38:48It validates my emotion and feeling.

38:51So when I show up there, that suit that I'm wearing gives me the confidence and the power that I need to feel.

38:57It's psychological, but it's real to me.

39:00So I'm going to buy from the person that understands me, that makes me feel like you got what I need, right?

39:06It's the same transaction.

39:08Could have bought that suit anywhere, probably for less money somewhere else.

39:11But you validated what I needed.

39:13That's empathy.

39:14The organization that codified that are going to always win.

39:18They're going to out-compete their competitors every time.

39:21Because we don't want a transaction.

39:24We want an experience.

39:27And I think that that applies not only for companies and employees dealing with customers, but also supervisors dealing with their direct reports.

39:35Absolutely.

39:35Because it's very human.

39:37No matter what business you're in, you are in the people-to-people business.

39:41Amen.

39:42Because there's always a person on the other side buying it and consuming it.

39:46And there's always a person on this side producing it and creating it.

39:49So if you take care of all the people by being empathetic, by fulfilling their emotional need, not just a transaction, earning a paycheck is a transaction.

40:00It gives me a paycheck, I can take care of my family.

40:02But what's the emotional need?

40:04I want to take care of my family.

40:06So what you're really doing, when you connect that someone's working there because they're trying to take care of their family, maybe they have an ill parent.

40:13When you connect to that, you don't talk to those people like machines.

40:17They're doing something that's meaningful for them.

40:21I'm going to throw this out.

40:22I interviewed Dr. Don Barden.

40:23He wrote the book, Here Come the Girls, and the book, The Perfect Plan.

40:27And he mentioned that, based on his research, that people will remember 6% of what we talked about 10 minutes later.

40:346%.

40:34Those are the words.

40:35The manufactured, scripted words.

40:38But they remember 100% of how you made them feel.

40:41100% always.

40:42I mean, you look at a commercial that makes you feel something.

40:46You don't even remember what it was and what they said, but you remember the feeling.

40:50Now, if the commercial has done it well, you'll remember the brand and the feeling.

40:54So you connect the brand to the feeling.

40:55And you're like, I don't know what they were selling, but let me look them up because I really like what they were talking about.

41:00So on that same note, since we're talking about people, and you've heard companies say that people are our greatest asset, but then they build systems that just burn them out.

41:08In your opinion, how can leaders scale their business without scaling the stress that goes along with it?

41:13Well, first of all, stop calling people resources and assets.

41:18Change the language.

41:19They're not assets.

41:20They're not goods.

41:22They're not cogs on the wheel.

41:23They're people.

41:24So I've always made it a point to stop using terms like resources, human capital, assets.

41:30They're people.

41:31Let's talk about what we talk about people.

41:34And then the other important thing is to keep in mind that each one of those people have needs.

41:41And they're also adults, which make difficult decisions every day, where to live, whether they have children, whether they get married, whether they get divorced, whether they get an operation, whatever decision they need to make.

41:53These are complex decisions.

41:54They're perfectly capable.

41:56If they have the right information, they can make difficult decisions.

42:00So if you equip them with what they need to make difficult decisions, they will make good decisions.

42:05And if you create a model where they can collaborate, then you have the collective wisdom that comes to making decisions, which is way better than one person.

42:13So treat people like not assets, but as partners and as friends.

42:19That would get rid of unnecessary stress.

42:22Because I'm convinced that most of the stress that employees have is when they don't know why they're doing something.

42:28And there's this universe of possibilities that no one's bothered to explain to them.

42:33And there's fear of the unknown.

42:34Like, how's that going to affect me?

42:36How's this going to affect my family?

42:38I get it.

42:39So if you're scaling, you're going to the employers who take the time to make sure that their employees know what they're doing and why they're doing it, that extra step of here's why.

42:48And one of the best ways to do that, Mason, you mentioned earlier a lot of executives are afraid to show up vulnerably and admit that something's off track or they even made a mistake.

43:00Because in most cultures, that's an opportunity for someone to come in and basically get you out of your job.

43:06Okay?

43:06That happens.

43:07Those politics happen.

43:08It's sad.

43:09But if you want to transform into a model where there's collaboration and connection becomes key, then when you are vulnerable, when you are powerfully vulnerable as a leader, you create psychological safety.

43:23Your job is to create psychological safety because the truth, although sometimes hard to hear, is how you can have the awareness of where you are right now as a business.

43:33And you can work with that.

43:35You can move forward from that reality instead of pushing this aspirational version of the truth, which is fantasy, and having everyone step into this fantasy.

43:45That doesn't help your business.

43:47That holds your business back.

43:48So be the first one to say, I screwed up, guys, and I need some help fixing it.

43:53Any ideas how we can fix this?

43:55But you see, when you create collaboration, you can do that, which is why I said, in the process of collaborating, don't be the boss.

44:01Be a member of the team, but be the first one to showcase and model how to be open, how to create intimacy.

44:09I think I did something that put me off track here.

44:12I'd love some help.

44:12What do you guys think?

44:13Let's talk about it.

44:14Now, guess what happens to the employees watching this?

44:17They're like, well, it's safe to say when things aren't going great, and it's safe to ask for help.

44:22That's leadership by example.

44:24It doesn't make me look less competent.

44:26It just makes me look human to ask for help.

44:28It's actually mature to ask for help.

44:31I'm being modeled as by the quote-unquote boss.

44:34So when you change your consciousness to being empathetic, to being of service, to creating a place where people can work as friends, you have to set the example by being the most vulnerable.

44:46The most vulnerable is the most powerful because it creates openness and intimacy.

44:51And in that intimacy and in that openness, in that collaboration, you become unstoppable.

44:56You cannot compete with a team like that.

44:59You cannot compete with a company like that.

45:01It's impossible to compete with them.

45:03So far ahead, their ability to outthink you is so fast because they have the collective wisdom, not just two, three people at the top.

45:10They have the collective wisdom of an organization moving them forward.

45:13Like, I know you've worked with startups and billion-dollar companies.

45:16Are there some scaling mistakes that both make?

45:20I think the biggest mistake startups make is this excuse of, we're a startup, so things move fast and change fast.

45:27I believe that's actually just an excuse to justify why your leadership may not be up to par to create the kind of systems thinking that can get everybody in alignment.

45:37Alignment is key, even in a startup.

45:40Yes, you're moving fast, but you're going to be able to move faster if you decentralize all the decision-making and get the team involved.

45:47So that's what happens.

45:48A lot of startups, the co-founders do very well because they work in a level of equivalence.

45:52Then they start hiring people, and they're not getting the same traction because they treat them as employees.

45:57So what you want to do is maintain this co-founder connection model and bring everyone into this mindset of collaborating as a teammate, as co-owners, as co-leaders.

46:09Then you can scale that co-founder working quickly kind of thing.

46:14Important thing, as you scale, maintain that mindset, that alignment, create systems where people can collaborate systematically in a way that's organized.

46:22And if you have to pivot, you can pivot quickly because you're doing it together.

46:25In large organizations, there's too many layers of management.

46:30Break down the silos.

46:32The silos are friction points.

46:34You know, it's hard to move a large company to self-management, but you could do it in departments.

46:39You can pick a division and say, let's work on this division.

46:42Let's break the model down.

46:43Let's get more collaboration.

46:44And then you can watch that organization transform, and you can measure the impact it's having.

46:50And then you can do another division and another division.

46:52So it's a systematic approach.

46:54It'll probably take five years for a billion-dollar company to transform in that direction.

46:58And there's different versions of this.

47:00There's the full-blown self-management, and there's versions of it that fit within the model where you are.

47:05But ultimately, the collaboration and the breakdown of silos, creating more pods, that cross-functional collaboration, cross-functional pods is the key to moving things faster and maintaining that startup mentality even in a large organization.

47:21But the biggest challenge is egos.

47:23Okay.

47:23You got to check your egos.

47:25If you are a CEO that understands that your job is to be of service and to enable others to self-realize, you have the right mindset.

47:32And your company is going to be a highly collaborative company.

47:35If you are the command and control CEO who thrives in the power and the prestige of being the CEO, you're going to have a highly disengaged organization.

47:44You have to be of service.

47:45Let's talk – and I appreciate your time.

47:47I got just a couple quick questions for you because I'm learning a lot.

47:51I could probably talk to you for hours.

47:52I'm enjoying every minute of this.

47:54Let's talk a little bit about AI and ethical tech.

47:57What's the intersection of EQ and AI leadership, and how do companies get that balance right, in your opinion?

48:03So AI can process things faster.

48:05Not in all cases.

48:07There's actually some cases where AI has slown people down.

48:10But it can't feel.

48:12It has no volition, and it has no curiosity, which is highly human.

48:16So leaders need to ensure the emotional intelligence of their culture isn't outsourced to code.

48:22You'll end up with a very clinical, cold environment with no competitive advantage.

48:27We've already spoken about how empathy always wins.

48:29So the other challenge is most AI adoptions are failing.

48:35There are studies that show as many as 70% of them are being abandoned.

48:38And the reason for it is because what AI is doing is bubbling up the dysfunctionality of most organizations.

48:44AI thrives in decentralized environments, agile, decentralized, autonomous environments.

48:50So if you've got a lot of rubber stamps or a lot of silos, a lot of departments that need to go through checks and balance and approvals, AI is not going to work for you.

48:58It's like bringing in a super employee and then having all these controls in place.

49:04It's not going to work.

49:05So they're being abandoned not because the technology isn't right, it's the organizational structure isn't right.

49:11AI, the adoption of AI requires change management, organizational redesign, and it needs to be treated like another employee or team coming into the organization.

49:22The best way I can describe it is it's think of like implementing AI as having done an acquisition.

49:28You are literally integrating a new company into your business.

49:32Now, this new company, you acquired it because it had some intrinsic values that you don't have.

49:36So you don't want to discard their processes in the system.

49:39You want to implement them and integrate them.

49:41Good post-M&A integration takes the best of all the companies acquired and creates new systems, new models that can have everyone step into a process that works for everyone.

49:52So think of like implementing AI as if you just went through an M&A transaction and you are integrating a new company that has probably the most effective, fastest models in the market.

50:02How do you integrate that seamlessly?

50:05Well, you have to make some changes to your own organization to implement that properly.

50:09You can't just implement it.

50:11It has to be seamlessly implemented.

50:14You have to remove the friction for that company to be integrated.

50:17And that's probably a more effective way to adopt AI, to think of it as an M&A transaction that needs to be integrated with change management at the core of it.

50:26And most companies are still not getting that and they're failing because it's being driven as a technology play, but it isn't.

50:33It is an organizational redesign in order for it to work.

50:37So you can benefit tremendously by AI if you integrate it correctly, if you have the right mindset on how it could work.

50:43But most companies would be like, let's just bring it in and automate everything.

50:46And then they're going to find themselves a year later that what they're doing doesn't resonate in the market because it sounds clinical and cold like that bank you were talking about.

50:54They're in for a rude awakening if they don't realize you have to integrate it to enhance your empathy in the marketplace.

51:00I'm going to piggyback on that because you're touching another one of my hot buttons.

51:04So one of my dear friends was an executive at a very large multi-billion dollar company and lost the role.

51:14And now is finding out that because we're talking high level years of experience and is being told that real people aren't even seeing her resume.

51:24It's AI scanning everything.

51:25And she told me of a company that conducted three virtual interviews, all AI.

51:32She didn't talk to a real person, thought she did, all AI.

51:35And then they offer a position.

51:37She's like, when she found out that it was all AI, she's like, I don't want to work in a company like that.

51:40I'm not a robot.

51:41It's a good decision.

51:42And the company that did that lost the perspective of it being a two-way street.

51:50Not only do they need to appeal and offer a job, but there's another side of that decision, and that's does the person want to work there.

51:56And while the company that was doing that could say, look how efficient we are, look how fast we are, look how we're getting exactly what we need, blah, blah, blah.

52:04The person that received an end said, that's not human.

52:07That's not empathetic.

52:08That's not a – I'm a real human, and I don't want to spend my life and my knowledge and my talent and my experience.

52:13I didn't work this long to develop the skill, knowledge, experience, and intelligence to be put into a machine and treated like a robot.

52:20So I understand what you're saying.

52:22My attitude is don't even respond, especially at the executive levels.

52:27If the first step is some survey or some automated thing, I'm like, you're not going to engage with me that way.

52:35We're going to have a conversation because efficiency should not trump relationship.

52:41Connection is the highest form.

52:42Can you say that again?

52:44Efficiency should never trump connection relationships.

52:48100% agree.

52:49Build relationships first.

52:50Build relationship.

52:51Then build efficiencies once you've got that figured out.

52:55And otherwise it just feels cold and clinical and you end up having digital overlords.

53:00And I'm not convinced that most – not most companies.

53:02Many companies don't get those reversed.

53:03They look for the efficiency and then they try to jam everyone into their systems.

53:07Here's the flaw of that too.

53:08AI, you could be responding with AI right there because you don't have a human being.

53:13Like you could use AI and give the perfect response, right?

53:16So when you do it in person – and by the way, I think resumes will eventually go away because I can use AI to match it exactly to the job spec and make me look perfect for the job, right?

53:26I think that in-person conversation where you're actually on the spot testing someone's critical thinking by having a question about, like, this is the thing we're trying to solve.

53:35What do you think about that, right?

53:37You don't want them to solve the problem, but you want to see their critical thinking and their process of ideas of how they go through solving that problem.

53:45Because ultimately, that's the true way, is the ability to be curious enough to solve things that have never been solved before.

53:53You could use AI to help you think through that, to speed through that, but ultimately it's your intelligence that's going to shine.

53:59So in that interview process, they didn't get to actually see whether she has the critical thinking necessary to fit into an organization that's focused to it.

54:08And the reason for it is because they're probably not focused on it.

54:11They're focused on efficiency, production, cog in the machine, and I wouldn't work there either.

54:16And a lot of these organizations – and I actually spoke with a VC last year, and I said, where are things going?

54:23What do you think is going to happen in the next five to ten years?

54:25And she said, Tulio, in the next five to ten years, you're going to see an emergence of a lot more people offering, like, coaching on how to have social skills, on how to – like, you're going to see the renaissance again.

54:39I agree with that.

54:40People needing to connect to art and poetry and being able to interact with other human beings, being able to have social skills.

54:48I'm like, that's a scary reality that we're walking into if we're not careful.

54:52Because I'm totally dating myself, but I'm used to actually talking to people or picking up a phone and talking to somebody, a text or a –

54:58Me too.

54:59You know, connect with me on Snapchat or whatever.

55:01I mean, can I do it?

55:02Sure, but there's no substitute to me to be able to hear someone's inflection of their voice, their passion, their energy, their enthusiasm, or lack thereof about any particular topic.

55:12To me, that's how I – like we talked about earlier with Dr. Barden's research, about 6% – people remember 6% of what they heard, but 100% how they feel.

55:23Like, I know how I feel interacting with real humans, and I know how I –

55:26Well, I mean, here's your friend who wasn't validated as a human being.

55:30Correct.

55:31All she was validated is that she fits into the machine as a cog.

55:35Right.

55:36Who's going to be excited about that?

55:37Now, if you need to take care of – you do what you have to do to take care of your family, but I guarantee you, you're not going to have a highly engaged employee.

55:44They're going to be quite quitting the minute they start.

55:46Doing enough not to get fired.

55:47Why would you do that?

55:48Why would you do that?

55:49Because we're putting a lot of attention on efficiency over relationships.

55:53And people will do enough not to get fired.

55:56The highest form of business is connection.

55:58Connection.

55:59It's all about connection.

56:00Human connection.

56:01If you miss that point, you're –

56:03So, last question, and then I'm going to ask how people can connect with you.

56:08So, what's one old-school belief about leadership that you think will be totally obsolete in five years?

56:13Don't bring your emotions to work.

56:15That mindset is already on its way out.

56:17Emotions are data.

56:18Ignoring them leads to blind spots.

56:21And really, the future belongs to emotionally attuned leaders who know how to use empathy as a strategic advantage.

56:27Case in point, if you have AI that's tracking productivities of employees and sees a dip in productivity on one particular employee, and it automatically generates a pit for that employee.

56:38Hey, we've noticed a drop in the past two weeks, 40% dip in productivity.

56:42Here's a performing improvement plan for you.

56:45Now, the AI doesn't know that person just lost a loved one, and they're mourning.

56:49They're in pain.

56:50And they just need a little love and kindness for a few weeks.

56:52They just need a break.

56:54Be happy they're back at work.

56:55They're doing the best they can.

56:56And maybe they've been loyal for many years, but now they need a little love and support.

57:01Give it to them.

57:02The machine's not going to be capable of doing that.

57:04So this idea of removing emotions from work, you'll end up with people that are disconnected.

57:10Emotion's a data point.

57:12We are emotional creatures.

57:14I appreciate you sharing that.

57:16We're emotional creatures.

57:17It brings it.

57:19That's a message that I want to blast everywhere, and I couldn't agree with you more.

57:24I really appreciate you sharing that.

57:26So if people wanted to learn more about you, the work you do, and your company, what's the best way for them to connect with you?

57:32Everything is on my website, my social handles.

57:35It's tuliosuragusa.com.

57:37Do you want to spell that for them?

57:38Because you've got two L's in Tulio.

57:40T-U-L-L-I-O-S-I-R-A-G-U-S-A dot com.

57:46It's been a pleasure having you on, and hopefully we can stay connected, reconnect, maybe have one of these conversations sooner rather than later.

57:53It's been a pleasure having you on, and I hope everyone else listening and watching enjoyed this as much as I did and learned as much as I did.

58:00I really appreciate you coming on.

58:02Thank you, Mason.