- 6 weeks ago
Grow Fast AND Become the Place Everyone Wants to Work: Unlocking Business Culture With Chris Dyer
Summary
In this episode, Chris Dyer, bestselling author, culture strategist, and expert on remote work, shares his proven insights on how to build a thriving company culture that fuels performance, productivity, and long-term success.
He explains why culture is the true foundation of any high-performing organization, why “good” isn’t good enough, and how leaders can foster greatness by embracing transparency, positivity, and recognition. Chris also tackles the challenges of remote and hybrid teams, showing how redesigned communication and collaboration systems can unlock engagement.
If you’re a CEO, HR leader, or manager ready to take culture seriously—this conversation is packed with actionable advice.
- Key Takeaways
Culture is the foundation for performance and productivity.
Leaders often misunderstand the depth of company culture.
“Good” culture is not enough—strive for greatness.
Transparency is essential for building trust.
Positivity means amplifying strengths, not just fixing weaknesses.
Recognition should be collective, not only top-down.
One-on-one meetings can be replaced with team accountability sessions.
Remote work demands redesigned communication systems.
Asking the right questions can spark major cultural shifts.
The CEO must make culture a top priority.
Listen to podcast episodes here:
https://shows.acast.com/themasonduchatschekshow
Learn More with Workforce Alchemy
If you’re ready to build stronger teams, reduce turnover, and increase your workplace value—start the FREE Workforce Alchemy Challenge today.
Apply here: https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com
About This Channel
Mason Duchatschek is a bestselling author and business strategist featured in Entrepreneur, Selling Power, and The New York Times. His Workforce Alchemy approach teaches leaders and employees how to:
✔ Increase workplace value
✔ Reduce turnover
✔ Improve engagement
✔ Build cultures of trust and productivity
Whether you’re a manager, business owner, or employee who wants to grow—this channel gives you the tools to make it happen.
Subscribe for More
If you want actionable ideas to improve employee engagement, leadership effectiveness, and business growth — hit Subscribe and turn on notifications so you never miss an episode.
Subscribe here: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist?sub_confirmation=1
- About Workforce Alchemy
Workforce Alchemy helps businesses and individuals transform average results into exceptional performance using validated psychometric assessment tools and training for hiring, engagement, and retention.
We help leaders:
✔ Hire smarter
✔ Reduce turnover
✔ Increase productivity
✔ Boost engagement
✔ Prevent drama, conflict, and costly mistakes
Explore our tools: https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com
🌐 Follow Us on Social
📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting
Summary
In this episode, Chris Dyer, bestselling author, culture strategist, and expert on remote work, shares his proven insights on how to build a thriving company culture that fuels performance, productivity, and long-term success.
He explains why culture is the true foundation of any high-performing organization, why “good” isn’t good enough, and how leaders can foster greatness by embracing transparency, positivity, and recognition. Chris also tackles the challenges of remote and hybrid teams, showing how redesigned communication and collaboration systems can unlock engagement.
If you’re a CEO, HR leader, or manager ready to take culture seriously—this conversation is packed with actionable advice.
- Key Takeaways
Culture is the foundation for performance and productivity.
Leaders often misunderstand the depth of company culture.
“Good” culture is not enough—strive for greatness.
Transparency is essential for building trust.
Positivity means amplifying strengths, not just fixing weaknesses.
Recognition should be collective, not only top-down.
One-on-one meetings can be replaced with team accountability sessions.
Remote work demands redesigned communication systems.
Asking the right questions can spark major cultural shifts.
The CEO must make culture a top priority.
Listen to podcast episodes here:
https://shows.acast.com/themasonduchatschekshow
Learn More with Workforce Alchemy
If you’re ready to build stronger teams, reduce turnover, and increase your workplace value—start the FREE Workforce Alchemy Challenge today.
Apply here: https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com
About This Channel
Mason Duchatschek is a bestselling author and business strategist featured in Entrepreneur, Selling Power, and The New York Times. His Workforce Alchemy approach teaches leaders and employees how to:
✔ Increase workplace value
✔ Reduce turnover
✔ Improve engagement
✔ Build cultures of trust and productivity
Whether you’re a manager, business owner, or employee who wants to grow—this channel gives you the tools to make it happen.
Subscribe for More
If you want actionable ideas to improve employee engagement, leadership effectiveness, and business growth — hit Subscribe and turn on notifications so you never miss an episode.
Subscribe here: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist?sub_confirmation=1
- About Workforce Alchemy
Workforce Alchemy helps businesses and individuals transform average results into exceptional performance using validated psychometric assessment tools and training for hiring, engagement, and retention.
We help leaders:
✔ Hire smarter
✔ Reduce turnover
✔ Increase productivity
✔ Boost engagement
✔ Prevent drama, conflict, and costly mistakes
Explore our tools: https://www.WorkforceAlchemy.com
🌐 Follow Us on Social
📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00What if the secret to unlocking performance, productivity, and profit wasn't a new strategy, software, or higher, but in your culture?
00:09Today's guest, Chris Dyer, is one of the world's top voices on company culture and remote work.
00:15He's the number one leadership speaker on culture, according to Inc. Magazine,
00:20and the best-selling author of several books related to company culture and remote work,
00:24including The Power of Company Culture and Remote Work.
00:27His companies have been consistently ranked among the best places to work,
00:32and his work has helped leaders worldwide build thriving teams, even in the most turbulent times.
00:37So I'm really excited to have him on here today, whether you're managing a remote team or rebuilding your culture
00:43or just trying to survive another round of return-to-office debates.
00:48Chris brings candor, humor, and a seven-pillar framework that gets results.
00:52Chris, it's an honor to have you here.
00:54Hey, Mason. Thanks so much for having me.
00:55It's a pleasure.
00:56So let's dig in.
00:57So I know you've built companies that were both fast-growing and great places to work,
01:03two things that often don't go together.
01:06What was the key to pulling that off?
01:09Well, you know, I pretty much screwed it up for the first eight or nine years, you know,
01:14trying to do it the traditional way.
01:17And that's like, you know, what do you learn from your coaches and your parents?
01:20And like, you know, I was a sports coach for a lot of years at a college.
01:25And I think I took that framework at some level to the office.
01:29You know what I mean?
01:30Of like, yeah, there's that we're a team.
01:32Our robots also don't do what I say.
01:34You go do 10 pushups, right?
01:36Of like, there's a little bit of that command and control, I think, kind of attitude.
01:41And we were hit by the big recession in 2009.
01:46And I had to go back and completely rethink the business because it wasn't working the
01:52way it should have worked.
01:53It wasn't, we weren't responding the way I thought we should have responded as an organization.
01:58And as I'm looking around, I finally realized that, you know, it's my fault.
02:02I'm the CEO.
02:03Like, I built this thing.
02:04And if it's not operating the way in which I think it should be operating, I have nowhere
02:09to look but in the mirror.
02:11And so I got really, really interested.
02:15And what I ended up doing, and I didn't realize I was doing this until I had finished, but I
02:20basically every year looked at a really big problem in the organization and got wildly
02:26curious and fascinated about why it was happening.
02:29How did we fix it?
02:30How did we help our people?
02:32What was the best thing for everyone, right?
02:35What was the best thing for our people?
02:36What was the best thing for leadership?
02:38What was the best thing for the company?
02:40And then put that into place.
02:43And so the first thing I started with was, well, how do we save the company?
02:45Because we were going to go out of business with the recession that hit.
02:48Well, we all sent everybody home.
02:50Remote work was the key, you know?
02:52And then it was, well, how do we grow?
02:54And so I got really interested in sales.
02:55And then it was, now we're all stressed out.
02:57So I got really interested in burnout, right?
02:59And so it was about me as the CEO getting hyper-focused on my people issues and spending my time there
03:08and not spending my time in like, I don't know, executive meetings all day looking at P&L sheets.
03:14Like it was, how do I go in?
03:16I kind of acted more like a CPO, I guess that might be.
03:20I had a CPO with a CEO's abilities and a CEO's permissions to go and radically create change
03:26in the organization every year.
03:28Awesome.
03:29Because, I mean, you know, and that's an interesting topic right now because I've seen all this shift
03:33of everyone talking about AI and everybody talking about metrics and efficiency and productivity.
03:38And I'm convinced that one of the best strategies has been and will always be just being a human
03:46and engaging with your people and treating them like they want to be treated.
03:51And good for you, man.
03:53So what is the biggest misunderstanding leaders have about company culture
03:59and how do you help them shift their thinking?
04:02So there's usually a pretty decent understanding of like, what is a good culture?
04:08We sort of know like, am I in a bad culture or am I in a good culture?
04:12A good culture has the basic parameters.
04:15We know what our values are.
04:17Or maybe we like the people we work with.
04:21You know, our boss isn't a jerk or the CEO isn't a jerk.
04:24Like, that kind of gets us into the good realm.
04:27And I think the problem is, is that people stop there.
04:30It's sort of like, listen, no offense to Toyota or Toyota Corollas, but Toyota Corolla is a good car.
04:36It's totally fine.
04:37But if you went and sat in a, I don't know, 5 Series Mercedes or a McLaren or like whatever your dream car,
04:43you get into that thing and you're like, okay, there is another place we can go here.
04:48Right.
04:48Right.
04:49There's something faster.
04:50There's something more comfortable.
04:51There's something more luxurious, whatever it is that you might like in a car.
04:55But if all you know is a Toyota Corolla, there's a bit of a limitation into the experience that you can have
05:02and what you know or think that you can do.
05:03So the biggest challenge I usually have is for people to realize that they can become a great culture
05:11and that there is a formula, that culture is not an art.
05:15This is not some touchy-feely thing.
05:17It is actually a science.
05:20So if we think about things very specifically, we implement very specific strategies,
05:25we can work on that culture to suddenly transform that Corolla into whatever it is you think you want.
05:31Maybe you need a Sprinter van to get your team there.
05:34Maybe you need a Ferrari.
05:35That answer is different for every culture.
05:38But there is a way for us to be really, really good.
05:42And I think that's a challenge I face all the time is that people will live in mediocrity.
05:49They will live in that this is good enough kind of space.
05:53And it's usually because they just don't know how much better it can be.
05:58So let me ask you a question.
05:59You talk about people don't know how much better it can be.
06:02There are people that are living every day in terrible, toxic cultures where they start getting nervous about going to work on Monday, Sunday night.
06:11They call in sick when they're not.
06:13They're crying in the bathroom when they don't think anyone can hear them.
06:17So those are characteristics that are easy to define in cultures that are toxic and bad.
06:22What are some characteristics and traits you think that are easy to identify the good culture?
06:28Just like you said, like, hey, maybe a good culture sounds great to someone in a toxic culture.
06:33But what are some of the characteristics that are good cultures that people get comfortable with?
06:37And how does that contrast with some of the characteristics of great cultures?
06:41Yeah.
06:41So in a good culture, like when things are going well, we can handle most things.
06:45But when things are not going well, the organization suddenly gets stressed.
06:49Leaders don't know how to make decisions.
06:51Right.
06:51There's a lot of like, you know, it's easy for that to shift.
06:56This sort of it's a very weak.
06:58If you want to use a shield as an example, I have a very weak shield to outside forces.
07:02So when things are fine, good culture can be fine.
07:06So what we need, though, to become great, I have seven pillars in my book that explain every organization that we would qualify as a great culture.
07:16Now we're talking.
07:18Right.
07:18At the moment, they are a great culture.
07:20We've seen organizations be great and we've seen them fall.
07:22But at that moment that are great, they're really good at these seven things.
07:25And these seven things can be interpreted however they want, because how Zuckerberg's doing this versus how, you know, Google's doing this versus how, you know, somebody else is doing it.
07:36They're all different, but they're always really good at these seven things.
07:40And the first one we start with is always transparency.
07:44So in a great culture, we are highly transparent, meaning we are sharing data.
07:51We are sharing the P&L.
07:53We are sharing goals.
07:54We know what each other's goals are on our team.
07:57Each team knows each other's goals.
07:59If someone joins the company, we know why.
08:02And we know why they got hired and we understand who they are.
08:05If someone gets fired or someone leaves, we know why.
08:09Now there are sometimes reasons we can't know why, but like as long as there's not some compliance thing, like we're open and honest about it.
08:15Right.
08:16We talk about our failures.
08:17We talk about what's happening so we can learn from it.
08:21And so also so people can make better decisions.
08:25And that takes guts.
08:26It's worth it, but it takes guts.
08:29Right.
08:29So in the very beginning, it's sort of like getting off the couch is hard, but once you start your walk, you feel pretty good.
08:36Right.
08:37And you're happy you did it.
08:38But like you're sitting on the couch and you're like, do I really want to take all this time to explain how to read a P&L?
08:44Well, I really want to take all this time to explain why we did this whole big project and why it failed or why, you know, whatever.
08:52That can be that get off the couch moment.
08:54And what I.
08:55Yes.
08:56And I think that the contrast of that is what happens if you don't.
09:00What happens if you don't is people.
09:01A change happens and someone gets scared and they start assuming the worst and they start spreading rumors like, why do you think they did that?
09:08Or why do you think that everyone speculates?
09:10And of course, they automatically go to the worst case scenario and they get your whole culture all wound up about something that may not even be true and is certainly not helpful or productive.
09:20So I love your point on transparency.
09:22Thank you for sharing that.
09:23Yeah.
09:24So, Mason, you're reminding everyone of a cognitive bias that we have, that if we don't know something and we have to fill in the gap, we always fill it in with something from our past that is negative.
09:37So if in my first job, whenever the boss slammed the door and went to his office, someone got fired.
09:45Well, if my boss comes in, slams the door and I don't know what's going on, I'm OK.
09:48Someone's getting fired because that's what happened last time in my job.
09:51Right.
09:51And we don't stop as human beings and go, well, wait a minute.
09:54I just need to get more information.
09:56No, we get scared and we hide.
09:58And and that's when the organization, everything slows down.
10:02You know, we don't make decisions quickly.
10:04We're not getting.
10:05So if you want your company to go faster, you want to you want to grow more.
10:09I want to do more.
10:10You've got to get that information out there so that we limit the amount of time people are spending being worried and anxious about things that don't even exist.
10:20Right.
10:20Right. But also, this is the problem I had as I was standing in front of thousands of people saying, hey, we're we may lose this company.
10:28We're we're in the crapper right now.
10:30I need ideas.
10:32I need this.
10:32And they all just stared at me.
10:34Because they didn't know what I knew.
10:37I had not given them all of the information they knew for them to go, oh, I have this idea.
10:43We could do this.
10:44We could do that.
10:44And as soon as I started sharing, their ideas got better.
10:49In fact, their ideas got better than mine in most cases because I had engagement because no one's going to be arguing against their ideas.
10:56They want their ideas to succeed.
10:58So you've got instant engagement and commitment because you collaborated in coming up with outcomes.
11:05I love what you're saying.
11:06Thank you for sharing that.
11:08Yeah.
11:08Tell me about your other pillars.
11:10Transparency is a first pillar.
11:12How about next?
11:13Yeah.
11:14And really, if you were to look at the seven pillars, I always tell companies, if you see one or two that you're like, that's where we're really bad.
11:21That's where you should focus your time to get better, to kind of improve that.
11:25But I do find that transparency is the one that like pretty universally people are struggling with.
11:30They could always do better.
11:32The one that I think that surprises people is the positivity pillar.
11:35So I am not talking about toxic positivity or saying everything is okay and pretending that everything is all right.
11:44The positivity pillar really focuses on two areas.
11:48One is how do we get curious about and how do we focus on doing more where we're already good?
11:56Alex Herzizi and he just had another big book come out.
11:59Most of them, yes.
12:00I read it.
12:01I've read that book.
12:02It's excellent.
12:02And I've heard him talk on his things of like, if you're already doing really well, why don't you go do that next?
12:09Like, why are you running out this next little idea that you had in your head?
12:12And I've been, that's a part of the positivity pillar.
12:15I think he framed it in a really nice way that I wish I had framed it.
12:18But it's like, if you have two salespeople that are doing really well and you have five that are struggling, what do we do?
12:26We always go put all our energy on the five people that are struggling and we're all over them and we're trying to fix them and we leave those two people who are doing really well.
12:35And we're like, just don't touch them.
12:37Leave them over here.
12:38And that's wrong.
12:39We need to be like, why are those two people successful?
12:42What can they teach us?
12:43Can they teach everybody else something?
12:46Can we give them more support?
12:48Eliminate.
12:48You talk about giving them support.
12:50Eliminate friction.
12:50And amplify what they're, amplify their existing message.
12:55Yes.
12:55Like, do you need those five struggling salespeople?
12:58Maybe what you need is two assistants to help your two top salespeople to go sell more.
13:03If they don't, you need someone else to go put the junk into the CRM and all of that, right?
13:07So what I've always said is where you, you know, what you focus on grows.
13:12And so if we focus on what we're doing well first, we focus on what our key strengths are first, it's very clear about how we should move forward in any situation.
13:25Now, yes, we still look at things and say, how can we improve in other areas?
13:30But if you walk around being a problem solver and you walk around the office looking for things to fix, you are not a very popular person in that office.
13:39You walk around trying to catch people doing the right thing and giving them a high five.
13:43You go around noticing when people are doing amazing things.
13:47Guess what?
13:48People want to do amazing things and want you to catch them doing the right thing.
13:52You walk around catching people doing the wrong thing.
13:54They're just going to figure out how to do the wrong thing without you looking.
13:58It's so true.
13:59Right?
13:59And so it's just a way of thinking about it.
14:03So that's one way of thinking about positivity.
14:05The second way is what if you said yes to every question asked of you?
14:12I mean, to think about it, you spent the rest of the day saying yes to everything.
14:15Now, give people a few little helpful tips here.
14:18Don't tell anybody you're going to say yes to everything, right?
14:21Your kids and your spouse will run your ragged.
14:24But, you know, like if you can just do that as your own personal thing.
14:28And then secondly, use yes and and yes but.
14:32And those don't always, it's not perfect.
14:34It's a funny Jim Carrey movie.
14:36You know, if you want to like see, it can go to the extremes.
14:38But I did a whole year of yes after reading the book Year of Yes by Shonda Rhimes.
14:43I did an entire year.
14:44I didn't tell anybody.
14:46And all I did is every question asked me, every time someone came to my office and said, hey, I have this idea.
14:51Hey, let's talk about this.
14:53Yeah, let's figure out if that's possible.
14:55Like I gave them some version of yes, even if I knew it was a stupid idea, even if I knew last week we already tried it and it cost us money.
15:03Like I went through the exercise with that person to allow them that thought, allow them to think through that and to not be the wall and the stopper.
15:12So how did you use yes but and yes and?
15:16So yes but, so let's say someone came to me and said, hey, I would like to sell our company to start selling meth.
15:23We can make a lot of money, you know, and that's a ridiculous question.
15:26I'm going to give you a really ridiculous one to help.
15:30I could say yes, but you need to get the law changed first because that's currently illegal to sell meth.
15:34So I'm happy to consider us doing this as a business proposition, but the law has to be changed first.
15:40It's like I can't break the law, right?
15:43I know that's a totally ridiculous example, but I could find a way to say but, right?
15:48There's a real reason why we can't do this, right?
15:52There might be moral and ethical reasons as well, but like you could just go the easy one.
15:56It's against the law.
15:57Yes and could be, you know, someone comes in and says, hey, I really would like us to hire a new salesperson.
16:03Okay, and you go, yes, and we need to talk to the head of sales and see if that's a part of the budget.
16:09Or if they really feel like they need another person, you know, so we can say yes, and we need to include somebody else into this process.
16:16We need to talk to them about what they think.
16:19It's like I'm saying sure, that's a great idea, but and what else do we need to bring in to keep this going?
16:25And what we're trying to do is to get our people to think better.
16:28We're trying to get them to train them to level up how they approach problems and things by helping them see that there are other variables and things in there.
16:38And if they can solve that, great.
16:41Now, another one is, hey, boss, can I have a raise?
16:44Yes.
16:45And raises are done once per year.
16:47Our policy is in January, we do anything and we give out raises once a year.
16:51And you need to have done these goals and blah, blah, blah.
16:54Like, wouldn't it be amazing if like your boss told you exactly all the things you need to do just to get a raise?
16:59Easy enough.
17:00Easy enough, right?
17:01Now, you can give them big goals.
17:02You don't have to.
17:03It doesn't have to be like, well, show up every day and I'll give you a raise.
17:05Like you can go really big if that's what you want as a boss.
17:08But you can say, yes, and here are the things that need to happen in order for us to get to that.
17:16And what you're conditioning.
17:16I love this because you're conditioning them to engage and conditioning them to think instead of sit around and wait to be told what to do.
17:24Right.
17:25Right.
17:26So those are the sort of the two ways that positivity works really, really well.
17:30And if anyone's interested, you can go deep dive into appreciative inquiry as a really great framework on how to do that.
17:38But how do we dream what we want?
17:41How do we dream about this?
17:42And I think this is an area, again, where most people don't spend any time.
17:47They see the problem and they're like, here's the fix.
17:50Here, give you a great example.
17:51I used to sometimes an issue would happen in customer service and the client was DEF CON one angry and like I would finally the CEO be brought in.
18:00Right.
18:01Because they were mad about something and they were big enough client that it made sense.
18:06And the first thing we get on the phone and I would say, hey, thanks for meeting with me.
18:11But before we dive into the issue, can you tell me what we're doing well?
18:17Like what is going good in our relationship so I can put that aside and don't have to worry about talking about that today?
18:25And they would tell me all the great things my company did.
18:28And immediately they went from level 10 angry down to five.
18:33Because they literally just told me, well, you guys do this.
18:36Well, you always call us back.
18:37You've been very receptive to talking about this.
18:39I really appreciate that they got the CEO on the phone up, up, up, down here.
18:43Now we're having a conversation.
18:46Right.
18:46Great tool.
18:47Right.
18:47And so I'm helping them.
18:50I'm in this dream category.
18:52Now I'm saying, now tell me what's happening and then help me understand what what does it look like for you?
18:59If we would have had a magic wand and I could do anything, how could I change this situation so that you feel like not only is it better, but it's going to, you know, we're going to actually solve this for you and everyone else.
19:11So what we're doing is instead of saying, how do I get you were here?
19:15I pissed you off.
19:16I pissed you off.
19:16Now you're here.
19:17How do I get you back to level?
19:20Okay.
19:20That's usually what we do when our spouse is mad at us.
19:23Like, how do I just get you to stop yelling at me?
19:25Right.
19:25But instead I'm saying, how do I help you help me think about how do I actually take you to happier than you were before?
19:32I'm not just trying to get you back to level.
19:34I'm trying to help.
19:35How do we redesign something so that you're actually happier when we leave this call?
19:39Our relationship is better.
19:40We've redesigned something for you and for all the other clients.
19:45And that just that design thinking really opens everybody up.
19:49And then we say, okay, well, you want me to be able to do this thing.
19:52Let's figure out that's even possible.
19:54Can we design this?
19:56So we've dreamed it.
19:57Can we discover whether it's possible?
19:59Can we design it so it's actually real?
20:02Is that programming?
20:03Is that a change in personnel?
20:05Like, whatever.
20:06And then how do we put the stickiness in?
20:08How do we design it to be?
20:09How do we put in destiny?
20:11How do we put real levers in so this is a solution that sticks as destiny?
20:16So that's the 4D process in appreciative inquiry.
20:19And it's amazing.
20:21My friend Shep Hyken would say, how do we take a moment of misery and turn it into a moment of magic?
20:26Yes.
20:27Right.
20:28And I love that saying, but I'm a bit more practical.
20:30Like, I need the instruction manual, please.
20:32Right?
20:33Like, I need the 4Ds to take my client through or else, you know, I could say that.
20:37I can say I want magic, but how do I get to magic?
20:40This is the problem that I had for my people.
20:41We had to design very specific things with little cute names and whatever.
20:47So they could go back to them and reference it at the right time.
20:51Gotcha.
20:52Right?
20:52Because not everyone is a CEO.
20:55Right.
20:55And I think as CEOs, as C-level people, we often, entrepreneurs, we think everyone should be able to think in the ways in which we do.
21:04And that's just not the case.
21:06Either because they can't, they won't, they haven't learned it yet.
21:11I mean, there's a bunch of different reasons why.
21:13But if they're not there yet, we've got to try to help them get there.
21:17So what other pillars are worth everybody taking under consideration that are pretty much universal and apply everywhere?
21:27Well, maybe I'll give you the ones that are left and you tell me which one you think is the most interesting.
21:30That's a deal.
21:31All right.
21:32So we've done transparency.
21:34We've done positivity.
21:35We have listening, mistakes, uniqueness, recognition, and measurement.
21:40That's the last one.
21:40Let's talk about mistakes and recognition.
21:42Recognition.
21:44Okay.
21:44One positive and one maybe not so much.
21:47Yeah.
21:47So with mistakes, here's the difference.
21:51There are mistakes and there are errors.
21:54Okay.
21:55Very clear difference.
21:56And we need to understand which thing has actually happened.
22:00So an error is I did something wrong because I don't care, because I haven't been trained properly, because I haven't slept in three days.
22:07I mean, if a nurse gives the wrong medication to a patient, is it because of a mistake?
22:12Do they do something they thought was right?
22:15Or is it because they've worked three straight shifts?
22:17They have had one hour of sleep and they just can't possibly keep it straight.
22:21Right?
22:21That's an error.
22:24And we can fix that.
22:26But that should not have happened.
22:28Right?
22:28If we, on the mistake side, it's that we're trying to do something the right way.
22:35Or we believe with all the information we had in that moment, we made a decision and it turned out it wasn't right.
22:41When that happens, we have to celebrate that with our people.
22:45We need to thank them for having the bravery to have made that choice and then take the time to help them and anybody else in the team understand what did we learn?
22:55How would we do it differently next time?
22:56Maybe what could we have done differently to have made a better decision?
23:01But use that as a teaching moment, as a celebration moment, not as a yell and scream, point, fingers, and blame moment.
23:11Alex Hormozy would talk about, because I am a fan.
23:13I've read all three of his books, but where he talks about share the lessons without sharing the scars.
23:20Right.
23:21Right.
23:22But I think the struggle for people is, is it a mistake or an error?
23:27Because if it's an error, that can't be tolerated.
23:30And you're not going to last very long in my organization if you keep making errors because you're careless, because you didn't do the training properly, because, you know, I mean, if you, if your job is payroll and you keep miscalculating the payroll, you're not going to be the payroll clerk for very long.
23:46We have calculators.
23:48Right.
23:49Right.
23:49That's not a mistake.
23:50That is an error.
23:51And we can't allow that to continue.
23:54But it gets a little murky sometimes trying to understand which one it is.
23:58Well, I'm sitting here thinking, I'm sitting here thinking of baseball.
24:01The immediate example that pops into my mind is baseball.
24:03If you're an outfielder and you keep dropping fly balls, those are errors.
24:08You can't keep making those.
24:10You have to catch the ball.
24:11Now, if you're out there and you throw it to the wrong base because the sun was in your eyes or you didn't know what to do, do I throw it to third base or do I throw it to second?
24:20And that's a mistake and a teachable moment that, hey, people can talk about, hey, this is what happened here.
24:25If you're in that situation again, do that instead of this.
24:29And that's a teachable moment where everyone can get the lesson without the scars.
24:35But continue to drop balls.
24:37You can't continue to put someone out there as an outfielder who's going to continue to make errors, i.e. drop balls.
24:41I think you gave a great example there.
24:44Yeah, and that's a great one because if you make a decision as a center fielder, let's say, and you've got a 450-pound guy who can hit home runs but can barely run the bases, maybe throwing it to second isn't a good idea.
24:56Maybe throwing it to first is a good idea because you actually can get that guy out, right?
25:01Or if it's a very, very fast runner, you miss the ball, maybe you've got to throw it to third, not to second because that guy is so fast.
25:08So you have to know different details and make different decisions.
25:12But, yeah, if you just keep dropping the ball, you're not going to be in the major leagues very long, right?
25:16That's an error.
25:17So the other one that we were talking about was recognition.
25:20So let's talk about recognition.
25:22Every great organization has a great recognition program.
25:27In my book, I give two very clear, different ways to do it.
25:31And I did that for a couple of reasons.
25:33One is the size of your organization will sort of change your recognition program.
25:38And two, I was very confident that my way was the best way.
25:42And so I wanted to make sure I offered a counterpoint to that and not be totally in my glass house.
25:48I believe that recognition up to a pretty large point can be about just saying thank you, having a mechanism in which we say thank you,
25:59and that it has to be bottom up, meaning the program has to be run by and energized by the people it serves.
26:09Managers can say thank you and can be a part of it.
26:11But if the managers and the leadership are the ones doing it mostly, that program will never be sustainable.
26:17So what we did is we had in our Slack channel, you could use Teams, Slack, whatever.
26:22We had a water cooler room.
26:24And that was a room where you could put your vacation photos if your kid won a soccer trophy, like whatever was work appropriate.
26:30But it was also the place we went and we said, hey, Sally booked me on this great, you know, podcast.
26:38Thanks, Sally.
26:39Way to go.
26:40Anyone who was online at that time would just pop in and say, great job, Sally.
26:43Way to go.
26:44Gave her recognition.
26:45Very simple.
26:46Not so public that she's embarrassed if she's an introvert.
26:50I didn't put her up and on a stage.
26:51But public enough that people in the organization know she did something good.
26:56But we can get that spread around a larger organization.
26:59Because if you keep seeing Sally getting thanked for doing stuff, like, I need to know Sally.
27:04Like, Sally's, you know, Sally's a good employee.
27:07How do I get connected with her?
27:08As a counterpoint, though, so that works because we don't have prizes.
27:12We don't have money.
27:13We never incentivized on it.
27:14We didn't count how many green flags you got at the end of the year.
27:16It was just thank you, right?
27:21Flip side, I did a huge case study with Caesars Entertainment and worked with them.
27:26Their recognition program could not be more different.
27:29So what they do is if a guest makes a comment on a card or recognizes an employee for doing
27:37something good during their stay at one of their resorts or casinos, that that employee
27:43gets points.
27:44Now, they get points.
27:48But every person on shift with them that day in their department gets points.
27:55Because let's just say that someone said the valet really helped me.
27:59They helped me with my bag.
28:00They told me a great place to go have dinner.
28:03Well, that valet may have had that interaction with you because your fellow valet was in the
28:09back tagging bags for three hours.
28:11Right.
28:12Right.
28:13Doing some other job that day.
28:14And so to be fair, if a guest had a great interaction with one person on that staff,
28:19everyone got the point.
28:21So this was a team effort.
28:23Right.
28:23I really love what you're saying about the bottom up.
28:27And I missed an opportunity to ask you to expound on why top down doesn't work.
28:32But I can think of one example that I'll share with you and let you expound on it.
28:36But I did some work with one particular company where the CEO picked the employee of the month.
28:42And in this particular case, unbeknownst to the CEO, but everyone else knew it, this particular
28:50employee was incredibly toxic and out of the sight of the CEO, incredibly toxic and not
28:56helpful.
28:56And when the CEO said, this is our employee of the month, everyone's like, this is a worthless
29:01award.
29:02I don't want that if he thinks this person is the one.
29:06And not only, and there were financial rewards associated with people.
29:08I don't want to have anything to do with that.
29:10And people just looked like a suck up or a backstabber or in this particular case, both.
29:17But that also showcased to the rest of the organization that this guy on top, the CEO
29:23was oblivious to what was really going on, because if he knew what was going on, he would
29:29have never done that.
29:31So, but I'm sure you've got a whole bunch of examples, probably even much more elaborate
29:35than that.
29:35Yeah.
29:36You know, and it's also, if you think about it, wouldn't we want thousands of little thank
29:41yous all month long to people versus one thank you to one person once per month?
29:48Like where, where do you think the real value is going to be?
29:51You want to give out employee of the month?
29:52I don't think that's a great way to go, but like, I think that works at Subway or that
29:58works at like some tiny little place where like there's 10 people and you know, you really
30:02got to motivate your team and you want to like in a small group step.
30:06I'm betting that might work, but at a large company, what we want is thank yous at scale.
30:12And that has to be done by the average person.
30:17Right.
30:17And, and, and as leaders, we can start to notice patterns.
30:22We notice that Scott always gets the thank yous or Sally is always getting, we can start
30:28to notice things in patterns that might help us determine who should get maybe promoted
30:32or who we should think about leadership roles and things like training roles, but it's
30:37really about doing, people want to be thanked.
30:41Sure.
30:42Right.
30:42So it's, it's, and it is easy to say, thank you and easy to do, easy not to do.
30:46I'm going to shift gears on you instead of something that's easy to do.
30:49What's, what's one of the toughest leadership conversations that you've ever had and how'd
30:53you handle it?
30:53Toughest leadership conversations, you know, anytime I've had to let somebody go, I have
30:59felt like that has been an incredibly difficult decision.
31:03And, and in part, because I have this coach's mentality.
31:08Um, and as a sports coach, I always felt like no matter where that kid was, I could get them
31:14to be better.
31:14I could help them train.
31:16I could help them get there if they wanted to get there.
31:18And so as an employer, as a CEO, when we just couldn't get there, I always felt at least
31:2750% responsible for that failure that if that person wasn't working out, then I had to let
31:33them go because that was the right decision for them and the right decision for the company.
31:38It was always difficult for me to do.
31:39And the only way that I could do that was I would make a clear list and a clear, you know,
31:46kind of journal out what this person would do and what I expected from them and how I
31:51would feel about them and how the team would feel about them in six months or in a year
31:57or whatever it was, if they were doing an amazing job.
32:01And if we got to that, that, that, that point in time, and we look back at what I expected
32:07and it wasn't there, I made a promise to myself.
32:10I'd let them go.
32:11Because otherwise conversations, how did you handle those conversations?
32:15They're very difficult.
32:15Do you have any insights that you want to share on how, because I'm sure there's other
32:18folks who are listening or struggling with that.
32:22Assuming this wasn't, you know, something toxic, it was something toxic and terrible,
32:25like it would be, listen, it's not working out here.
32:28Here's your final paycheck off your go.
32:29But those are very rare, very, very rare.
32:32Mostly it was something in the middle, right?
32:35Where they were, they thought they were trying and I thought we were trying, but like, again,
32:40I look, reflect back and we're just not there.
32:44I have big goals for the organization.
32:46And if we're not there, we're never going to get to where I know we can be.
32:51And so often I tried to take responsibility for anything that I felt like we just couldn't
32:57get there as an organization or myself.
33:00But also frame it in the sense of like, I don't think I'm doing them any help by having
33:07them continue to work here because I can see they're not happy.
33:10I can see they're not, they're frustrated.
33:12I can see they're not.
33:12It's always never a surprise.
33:13I mean, most, my experience has been most people aren't surprised.
33:16They felt something wasn't right.
33:19It's not a out of the blue.
33:21Not always, but most of the time.
33:22And I always told people when I hired them, like, you need to be very clear.
33:27I've told them everything I could about the company and the culture.
33:30Like, you need to be very clear that you are joining this because this sounds great to you.
33:35Not because you need a job, not because you want a paycheck, not because you want to work
33:38remote.
33:39If that's the reasons, like, this is not going to work out for you.
33:43Like, you really need to be excited about what I've told you about this organization.
33:47I mean, for some people, being highly transparent freaks them out.
33:52And they don't want to do that, right?
33:54And I'm here.
33:55I am being highly transparent.
33:56They're, like, uncomfortable.
33:57And I would tell them, like, I need you to be very clear.
34:00And then when you get started, you show up on day one or you show up on day 14 and you're
34:05like, I don't think this is for me.
34:08I already told them, I've given them permission.
34:10You need to come to me and say, I don't think this is it for me.
34:13I have no hard feelings.
34:15Because the worst thing you could do is we go six months or we go a year and I have to
34:19fire you because we both know it's not working.
34:21And so I've already set them up for how to deal with this.
34:26So if we get to that moment and they haven't made that choice, they already have, like,
34:30some sense, usually some sense of responsibility of, like, yeah, I probably should have said
34:34something soon.
34:35So you touched on, you said a couple of magic words there.
34:39Remote work.
34:40I know that's one of your areas of expertise.
34:42What do you think leaders are getting wrong about remote or hybrid work?
34:46And what are some of the ones that are doing a great job?
34:50What are they doing differently?
34:52Well, to do a great job at remote work, you have got to redesign everything.
34:57You cannot run your organization like you did when they were all in one place.
35:02It's like someone took a saddle off a horse and put it into, you know, Henry Ford's first
35:07car and say, well, this is a good seat.
35:09Like, you have to redesign things and think about how to...
35:13Can you give me an example of maybe a...
35:15Give me an example.
35:16So really easy to move information around the company and to maybe pop into the conference
35:22room and have a quick meeting and feel like we actually got things done and that we, there
35:30was a flow to it.
35:31Because just before the meeting, some bit of information was being exchanged verbally, non-verbally,
35:37whatever.
35:38Then we had the meeting and then when we were done, little side questions and things could
35:43happen.
35:44Now, what happens when we now are in remote work and we all pop onto a Zoom?
35:49We all pop on at the same time.
35:51We didn't have any of that pre-communication.
35:54We all had a conversation.
35:56No one could observe if people's legs were crossed or they were squirming in their seat
36:00or, you know, like maybe their cameras weren't even on.
36:03So we don't even know if they were rolling their eyes the whole time.
36:05I'm like, I'm missing out on this communication.
36:09And then we turned off the Zoom and then like there was nothing.
36:12And so I think leaders make the incorrect choice by saying, well, that means remote work's
36:20not as good.
36:21That means we should all be in the office because we need all those little things.
36:25All we have to do is redesign it.
36:28Okay.
36:28So I'll give you a good example.
36:31We redesigned all of our meeting types.
36:34We gave them all funny names and they all had different purposes.
36:38They had different rules.
36:39And so in a typical work setting, we're probably showing up for a very similar meeting.
36:46And that works because we can have little side meetings all the time.
36:50But in remote work, we need different meetings with different rules and different times to help
36:55us achieve that same thing.
36:56So let's just say that you suddenly have a problem.
37:02Client calls you, tells you there's something going on and you don't know how to fix it.
37:07At the office, you might go running around from desk to desk asking who knows how to do
37:11this.
37:12And someone's going to overhear you talking to somebody else and say, oh, you know what?
37:16Go talk to Todd.
37:17He knows how to fix that.
37:18And you get that solved that way.
37:20But in remote work, now you're like picking up the phone, calling people one at a time.
37:25You're spending three hours on YouTube trying to figure out the solution.
37:28So you lose that quick answer.
37:32So we developed something called a cockroach meeting.
37:3415 minutes or less, anyone can call the meeting, invite anybody you want.
37:38Five to seven is the max.
37:40And it's totally optional for people to attend.
37:42So you got a problem, client called you up, you go into Slack or you send out an email
37:48to those seven people and say, hey, at one o'clock, anyone who can join me, here's my
37:52problem.
37:52I could use some help.
37:53And obviously it can't be something that's like so easy.
37:56Someone could just email you the answer, but it's something a little bit more, you know,
38:00we got to think about this.
38:02Multiple variables and dynamics.
38:04Right, right.
38:05And so what we found is by doing this, we had like 45 of these going on every single
38:10day on my team and they were moving information around quickly.
38:14They were getting decisions.
38:15They were helping someone figure out what's the next thing they need to go do.
38:19And the average cockroach meeting was seven minutes.
38:23So no, hey, how's it going?
38:25Talk about the weather and our kids.
38:27It's show up.
38:28Hey, here's my problem.
38:29Okay.
38:29Yeah.
38:30The last time this happened, we did this, this and this.
38:32But then if that didn't work, we had to get Todd and IT to undo this thing.
38:36And okay, cool.
38:36Thanks everyone.
38:39What are some other tips?
38:40Cause, cause you're dead on.
38:42Like when you started describing, like, I'd be like, well, that's why people, I mean,
38:45literally I was thinking in my head, well, that's why people don't want to do remote.
38:48Cause you can't get answers to stuff like you figured a way.
38:51What are some other tips you have about how to make remote work work?
38:58The other thing is you need a centralized communication channel.
39:02Or, or highway for us, it was all internal communication must be on Slack.
39:09So you do not email each other.
39:11You do not text each other, right?
39:14Everything is on Slack internally.
39:17And what that did was, is now everything was there.
39:20It was easy to go back and search and find files and find conversations.
39:23If you remembered something a month later.
39:26Okay.
39:27So it centralized it all.
39:28It also allowed people to be able to be off and on.
39:33So if I'm at a doctor's appointment and I'm off for an hour, okay.
39:37I would have employees who would email me and then they would Slack me and then they would
39:41text me, right?
39:43I mean, they got desperate.
39:44They go into WhatsApp, Facebook messenger.
39:46I mean, they would like hound me.
39:47But if I said, listen, it goes into Slack and that's it.
39:50And if I'm inactive for that hour, when I'm come back in, I will see the messages and I
39:55will reply the moment I'm able to reply.
39:58And I'm not being hit by stimulus and pings and dings from all over the place.
40:04It was chaos for a while.
40:07Right.
40:08And then I was like, oh, but wait a minute.
40:10You know, Mason sent me this thing.
40:12Is it an email?
40:13Is it in my phone?
40:14Is it in my Slack?
40:15Is it my...
40:15So again, we centralized everything.
40:18That was there.
40:19So that really helped us be far more productive in a remote work setting.
40:25Now, externally, of course, we had email.
40:28But even externally, if things were in email and they were clients and they were leads, everything
40:33was in our CRM.
40:34So if I wasn't sure, I could check Slack and the next place I was going to go is a CRM.
40:39That was a lot easier for me to search than going into my email to try to find something.
40:44So because our emails would sync with the CRM.
40:47So like even if we did send email, it was there.
40:49So we had easy places to find things.
40:51And so that made it far easier for us to communicate and to work together.
40:56And again, we put the green flag in Slack, right?
40:59We would use that as a highly collaborative tool.
41:02I think that that's probably one of the most important things.
41:05And then the sub point out of that is if you are in three, maybe four time zones, if
41:12you've got some people in Hawaii or something, you can operate an organization in real time.
41:17You're going to have people coming on and off line.
41:20But like the main hours of the day, you've got pretty much all your people working at
41:24the same time.
41:25But if you have five or more time zones, you now have asynchronous work, which means you're
41:33going to have to shift a little bit on how you collaborate because there may be people
41:37working on something up to a certain point and there needs to be a handoff to the next
41:43group coming online.
41:45Well, that also if I'm a worker and I know that those are the parameters and rules that
41:49we're going to operate under, then I can prioritize my work to say, hey, I've got 10
41:54tasks to do, but five of those tasks I don't need anybody else for.
41:59That's just my time later on.
42:00I can manage my time to do those tasks when I don't really need to be interacting with
42:04other folks.
42:04And I can prioritize the tasks that are going to require interaction for those periods of
42:10time when other people are available.
42:12Makes total sense to me.
42:14You bring up a great point.
42:15Daniel Pink calls this your golden hour.
42:17And so we would ask people to really think about what was that hour there, the most productive
42:21at work during the day.
42:24And if they were really clear, like, man, from 10 to 11 is when I just get my stuff done.
42:29And we had them talk about that within their team.
42:32What was their golden hour?
42:33Most of the time they were all pretty close.
42:36You know, some people like programmers, their golden hour might be three o'clock in the morning,
42:40like, but they were a different group and different breed.
42:42We highly encourage them to block that golden hour out on their calendar and to be highly,
42:51highly critical about allowing anybody or anything to come in during that hour.
42:57Right?
42:58So we shouldn't have team meetings there.
43:00We shouldn't be jumping on other types of things.
43:02We shouldn't allow a client meeting to come into there.
43:05If that is their most productive hour, they should protect that hour with their life.
43:11Because then you're right.
43:12Then if it's some other small task, I can do that later or whatever.
43:15My deep work, that really important stuff.
43:18Because if you don't, then like all of a sudden you're trying to get done at three o'clock
43:22and at three o'clock you're eating Cheetos and got a gallon of coffee going.
43:25And like, you're just trying to muscle through it and it's not your best work.
43:28No, do that work at 10 or at 9 or 5 a.m. or whatever it is.
43:31So by giving people that permission, I want you to pick time in the day when you're going
43:38to be highly productive to do your work.
43:41Other times of the day to have meetings and collaborate and bounce around.
43:46That really helped people.
43:48I think this is true in regular work too, but it really helps them promote.
43:51What's funny is I'm looking back to one of the very first questions I asked you is how
43:54did you end up having a high, fast growth company and still being one of the best places
43:58to work?
43:59And now I'm starting to understand how you did that.
44:01This is a long answer, but the different parts to it, you start adding those little
44:07parts up and I'm understanding how you could run a company that is fast growth and also
44:12viewed as one of the greatest places to work.
44:14So quick question on culture.
44:15I know it's often treated like an HR initiative.
44:18Everyone knows that.
44:19But why do you believe that culture is a CEO's job?
44:21I, you know, your people are the most important part of getting whatever it is you're trying
44:27to get done, whatever your goals are.
44:28I mean, unless you're a team of one, I mean, even if you're a team of one, I mean, your
44:32people are your most important thing because you're the only person there.
44:34I mean, it has to be your number one job is thinking about your people, thinking about
44:40how they work.
44:41And most importantly, solving those challenges to reduce friction, to help them be more productive,
44:49to help them be happier.
44:51Because just think about how much time you can spend onboarding people and finding somebody
44:57new and trying to like, I just, there's so much minutiae that companies spend because
45:03they have so much turnover, right?
45:06Instead of HR can be a part of the solution and they can be a part of helping me do that.
45:13But I always viewed, well, from 2009 on, I viewed it as my number one job to figure this
45:20out, right?
45:21So it was driving the change, reinforcing the behaviors that we want.
45:25And then every year picking what was the new thing that was happening that, you know, as
45:32our company got better, we got better at growing and then we all got stressed out and burned
45:36out and we had to fix stress and burn out, right?
45:39And then we had to come up with different solutions.
45:41And so this was a, this was a 1% problem.
45:44And what I mean by that is I was always trying to get 1% better and I challenged my people and
45:51I challenged my teams and I challenged my leaders, think about how they could get 1% better.
45:57It was up to them to decide if that was today or in the week or in the month or in the year,
46:02like what was, what, what was appropriate for them for that 1% shift?
46:07And when we all were thinking that way, one, it was so much easier to identify a small way
46:15to get better versus I'm going to need you to cut 30% of the budget.
46:20I need to be 30% leaner.
46:21I mean, that's like, oh my gosh, how do I do that?
46:23Like that's just, but could you be thinking about how we could save money 1% at a time?
46:28Like, oh yeah, I can do that.
46:30Right.
46:30We can start making little changes, little shifts, little things you'll hear.
46:33Totally different way.
46:34And then number two, so much easier for someone who's gone six months to turn around and look
46:39backwards and go, wow, have things gotten better?
46:43Wow.
46:43Have I improved?
46:44Wow.
46:45Has the customer experience gotten better?
46:47Wow.
46:47Have we gotten more profitable?
46:49Right.
46:49And have those reflections over that period of time.
46:53So obviously, like I'm sitting here reflecting back to college and my professor of military
46:58science, I was Army ROTC in college and my professor of military science always talked
47:02about leadership by example.
47:03And you can't expect anything of anyone else that you're not willing to do yourself.
47:07And it sounds to me like you're the embodiment of that and how you roll.
47:11But, you know, and obviously trust is earned, but that's a two-way street.
47:17And I know that you talk a lot about distributed work environments.
47:20Like, how do you build trust when people rarely share physical space?
47:24Yeah, so we have to be very clear about what we expect from that person and what is it that
47:32person expects from us as the organization.
47:34So I remember early on when COVID hit and people were asking about remote work because I had
47:39a book come out on remote work right when COVID hit, sort of dumb luck.
47:42And probably the number one question was, how do you know they're working?
47:46And I said, I've never worried about that a day in my life.
47:49Thousands of people across the country, I never once again, what you focus on grows.
47:55And so all I focused on was the output.
47:58I focused on their, you know, helping them be more productive, focused on making sure the
48:03goals and the expectations were clear.
48:06And then we would go back and have a leadership say, well, this is what we expected from you.
48:11Did we get there, right?
48:13If we didn't, how do we help you?
48:15If we still can't help you, well, then maybe you don't belong here, right?
48:18I mean, we got a higher, we got a, you know, higher, a higher fast, higher, slow and fire
48:23fast, you know, and that usually made it pretty clear.
48:29Yes.
48:29Out of thousands and thousands of people, there was a few instances where like somebody was
48:33just sitting on the couch eating bonbons and didn't really work.
48:36We figured that out pretty quickly, you know, because we had clear standards.
48:41Of what we expected that we negotiated with that person in, I would say the hardest job
48:47for me to have done this with was managers, right?
48:51Because it's not, it's not with like my customer service team.
48:54I could say, well, we would expect somebody to be able to take X amount of calls per hour.
48:58We would expect you to get a certain rating.
49:00We had very clear metrics of what good looked like.
49:04What's the metric for the customer service manager that their team did good.
49:08I mean, that's a pretty good metric that their team is overall performing well.
49:11Okay, great.
49:12Right.
49:12And sometimes an okay manager could hide around that.
49:16But like, that was actually the hardest one for me was leaders, you know, because they had
49:21an impact, but they didn't have such a measurable, clear thing as another person might have.
49:26So how did you handle that?
49:28As best we could coming up with, you know, larger metrics with them.
49:31Maybe what were projects they wanted to accomplish?
49:34What was their, let's just say, use customer services as an example.
49:38Was there a larger customer service goal that we expected and we wanted them to achieve?
49:44Try to come up with things that they wanted to do that year and metrics that they thought
49:48were important and then judge them against that.
49:51It was probably some subjective things in there about, do we like working with them?
49:56And are they a good teammate on the senior team?
49:58And, you know, some other things that are in there that are maybe not so objectively
50:02measurable, but we did the best we could with those, right?
50:07Salesperson, go sell a million dollars.
50:09You sell a million dollars.
50:10Great.
50:10You sold 200,000 this year.
50:11There's the door, buddy.
50:13That was easier to understand.
50:16So I really appreciate your time and I've learned a lot and I'm certain that the people
50:20listening are learning a lot too.
50:23So I got one more question with you before we wrap up.
50:25What's a culture myth that you're tired of hearing and what's the truth that you'd prefer
50:31that people understood instead?
50:32Truth, the culture myth.
50:35There's got to be one of them out there that you're like, yeah, I'm tired of hearing that
50:38and I don't agree.
50:40Here's how I think differently.
50:41So I don't know if it's exactly a culture myth, but it's certainly like a leadership exercise
50:47or a practice that I think is wildly outdated, especially for remote work or hybrid work.
50:54I personally believe that one-on-one meetings are stupid.
50:58Why do you say that?
51:00So let me be very clear about what I mean before everyone freaks out and starts throwing tomatoes
51:05at the screen.
51:06I'm talking about one-on-one meetings that are the repeatable ones with your...
51:12So if you're a leader and you have 10 people you manage and you have this one-on-one on
51:17Monday at 10 a.m. with whoever, I think that is outdated, stupid, and not serving you and
51:22that other person in any way at all.
51:25What's a better alternative?
51:26So, and to be clear, you have one-on-ones for training?
51:29Cool.
51:29You're working on a project with someone?
51:30Cool.
51:31There's an HR issue?
51:32Yes.
51:32Then you're going to have a one-on-one.
51:34But I'm talking about this repeatable, I'm your boss.
51:37We're supposed to talk every Monday at 10 about your career.
51:41What we need to do instead, and this, I had wild success with this with my organization,
51:46and I've taken this to tons of organizations who have done this really, really well.
51:52Move it to the team.
51:55So the best example I can give you is like sometimes we need individual therapy.
52:00There are moments in everyone's life that maybe you need to go work with a one-on-one
52:03therapist or a one-on-one coach.
52:05There are also moments in your life when maybe what you need is group therapy.
52:11What you need is to go talk to a group of people who've been there that are living what
52:14you're living, right?
52:15I was in a CEO group for years.
52:18That was my group therapy.
52:20Smart people with similar problems to me had great advice for me.
52:24I could have worked with just one CEO coach.
52:28Would I have gotten the same out of that as I got from that group of people?
52:32I don't think so.
52:33So moving it to the group, let's just say it's the customer service team.
52:38Five to seven people, they're in a pod, and they all know each other's goals, and you are
52:44meeting with that group of people once a week, and we're talking about how everyone is doing
52:50on their goals.
52:51So there's transparency, there's clarity, right?
52:56No one's going to say, well, I didn't do that thing because Tom won't tell me the answer.
53:00Well, Tom's on that call, and if that's the answer, guess what?
53:03We're going to get that figured out.
53:04And if that's not the truth, it's not going to be said, right?
53:08Accountability starts happening because I have my whole team there to be accountable to,
53:13not just my boss.
53:13And so you move that to the team, and now it's the whole team's job to help the whole
53:20team be successful.
53:22And isn't that what we want?
53:24Don't we want the team to be successful so the company can be successful?
53:28Yes, that's a great point.
53:30Right?
53:30And as a leader, like, I don't have all the answers.
53:35Why is it my job to coach those 10 people?
53:38I don't really, I may not be able to help all of them.
53:40You know what?
53:41But that team does.
53:43Yes, they do.
53:44There was a guy that referred to as the collective genius.
53:46So if a CEO is listening right now, and they know their culture isn't working, but feels
53:51overwhelmed, what's the first small step that they can take today to turn things around?
53:57Start asking one question every week.
53:59Do a one-question survey and tell them whether or not that's going to be public knowledge
54:05or if it's just going to be for you.
54:06Maybe you'll just repeat back the sentiment.
54:08But ask one question, like, what's the biggest frustration you have in the organization?
54:14Or who in the organization is killing it for us?
54:17Or what client, you know, should we fire?
54:20I mean, come up with a question that's stuff that they're dealing with.
54:24And then make sure, if you ask that question on Wednesday, the answers are due on Friday.
54:29By next Tuesday, you better have gone back to everyone and said, either, this is what
54:36I heard.
54:37I'm not going to give anyone's direct answers, but I'm going to tell you what I heard.
54:41And this is what we're going to do about it.
54:43Right?
54:43And then ask another question on Wednesday and keep asking.
54:48What we did is once a month, we had a company-wide meeting and I would always review the four
54:52or five questions we asked and again, remind them of what we heard, what we did about it,
54:59what we're continuing to do about it.
55:01Sometimes we couldn't do anything about it, but like, at least it was, they understood
55:04why we were educating people and giving them transparency about that.
55:09Again, that's that 1% mentality.
55:11How do you shift the culture 1%?
55:13You don't need to go do some giant initiative.
55:16Just start asking one question.
55:18Be transparent about it.
55:19Maybe you want to share.
55:20Maybe I, sometimes I would share all the answers to everybody.
55:23We would create a spreadsheet and I would say, warning, your answers are going to everyone
55:27in the company.
55:28And then we would share the spreadsheet out to everybody.
55:31And they would come with ideas.
55:32I asked the question, who, how am I as your CEO getting in your way?
55:37I asked that question once per quarter, hoping one day they would tell me nothing, but they
55:43always told me something I was doing to get in their way.
55:47Well, that's how you eliminate friction.
55:49And I was talking to Tulio Siragusa a few weeks ago, and he said, these organizations that
55:55want to scale, they think they got to add people.
55:57And a lot of times he said, before you do that, remove the friction.
56:00And a lot of times the friction is a CEO and that is a bottleneck.
56:03So kudos to you for having the courage and guts to put yourself out there for that kind
56:08of scrutiny.
56:09You say, hey, what am I screwing up?
56:10How am I getting in your way?
56:12Kudos to you.
56:12And again, what I'm learning from our conversation today is how you can run an organization that
56:19grows fast and has high satisfaction.
56:22Like that's my takeaway from today.
56:24And I'm very, very thankful for your time.
56:26So if other people who are listening want to know more about you, your speaking engagements,
56:31your books, the kind of work you do, what's the best way for them to interact with you
56:36or reach out?
56:37Certainly, I'm happy to connect with anybody on LinkedIn or TikTok, Instagram, wherever
56:42you hang out on social, I'm there.
56:44If you'd like some free little giveaway on those meetings I talked about or 25 starter
56:49questions for that one question survey, you can text 33777 and just put my name Chris
56:55and I'll immediately send you a link to download a little free PDF.
57:00Very cool.
57:01And what's your website?
57:03ChrisDyer.com.
57:04That's P-H-R-I-S-D-Y-E-R.com.
57:07You got it.
57:08And if you look up Chris Dyer, I'm not the Peruvian Canadian psychedelic artist.
57:13That's a different Chris Dyer.
57:14I'm the author on the culture books.
57:16Cool.
57:16Well, hey, I really appreciate you.
57:18Thanks so much for joining us.
57:20All right.
57:20Thanks, man.
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