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03:33Good evening Trinidad and Tobago international audience and of course our brothers and sisters in Grenada. This is Beyond the
03:40Tape and I'm your host Whitney Husbands. Now today is Wednesday smack in the middle of the week so that
03:45means one thing is legally speaking. Now legal discussions but today because of the generosity of our Tiniot Law and
03:53Director of PACOS he did a switch today and just today only we have something really special still keeping with
04:01the legal discussions and this is
04:03one that you need to tune in and of course and you'll have the opportunity to connect. Now today as
04:09we have mentioned on the show many times before when you have heard of the Community Justice Clinic that we
04:15try to
04:15let you all be a part of in your communities. Now we have the lead attorney with the Community of
04:20Justice Clinic
04:24Sajina Kadir as the initiative celebrates five years of service and we'd like to welcome her.
04:30Ms. Kadir.
04:31Good evening.
04:32Good evening.
04:33You did my name justice.
04:34Yes, I have to make sure to correct that.
04:35And good evening to everyone locked on and viewing as well.
04:38Yes.
04:38So first of all, congratulations, five years.
04:42Yes.
04:43Such a milestone, right?
04:44We were mentioning it.
04:45We told persons about the importance of it.
04:47It was free.
04:48Yes.
04:48Persons were able to go and get information that, I mean, many persons may not have been able to afford.
04:55That's right.
04:55But were you expecting it to reach the five years?
04:58The thing about it is, you know, with anything new, there's always this kind of apprehension with me.
05:04But the way I saw it, when you put God first, you know, blessings will come in abundance.
05:09So I laid the apprehension to rest and I, you know, proceeded to approach the police service with regard to,
05:16you know, my idea and trashing it out and seeing where it could go.
05:19And the blessings did come in abundance because so many citizens have benefited from this project.
05:24So when you saw the turnout, first of all, let's start there.
05:26The first year, let's start there.
05:29And persons were saying, what is this really about?
05:31Right.
05:32So, you know, I must say, when I was speaking about that apprehension, when I went to the TTPS, we
05:40didn't exactly know the logistics.
05:41And in 10 days, it was put together.
05:43So that very first clinic at the St. Mary's Moruga police post had an abundance of citizens.
05:50And actually, it's up there on your screen right now.
05:53Yes.
05:53We actually started, Whitney, with six attorneys.
05:57You know, the officer there, I had approached, he was the den superintendent in charge of the community-oriented policing
06:03section, Michael Peer.
06:04Yes.
06:05I pitched the idea, mainly Whitney, because during that COVID period, when everybody was at home, enjoying their time at
06:12home.
06:13And we were out there, right?
06:15You know, they had certain risks.
06:17But a lot of people were in their homes, but it was a toxic environment.
06:20Yes, it was.
06:21So people enjoying themselves, and then we had the opposite end, where they, you know, feeling this physical abuse or
06:27psychological abuse or some form of abuse.
06:30And I said, you know, it was such an economically challenging time.
06:34Even when people reached out to my office, they couldn't afford an attorney.
06:37So I said, why not bring legal advice to the communities?
06:41And a lady apprehensioned arrest, Michael Peer, gave me a hearing.
06:46This fell under DCP, Joanne Atchie, at the time.
06:50She's in charge of Corp Comunit, of the TTPS, you know, and the then commissioner of police, McDonnell Jacob.
06:55And through their efforts, working out alongside with just six of us in the beginning, this project was birthed.
07:02Now, Ms. Kadir, let's start with, as you mentioned before, persons who are not able to afford an attorney.
07:08But I don't think persons understand the importance of having an attorney in their back pocket, front pocket, side pocket,
07:16wherever you want to put them in your pocket.
07:17We have to say for free, because once they hear attorneys, people think it's such an exorbitant figure, right?
07:22And then they shy away from it, and I can handle my own in case of any situation.
07:25And that's where the problem comes, because they're not aware of their legal obligations or their legal rights, you know?
07:32And then when that happens, and they don't have a free or an affordable option with regard to, some are
07:38fortunate, they will have it, right?
07:40But if they don't have something that they could turn to when they're already frustrated, tensions will increase, fears will
07:46increase, resentment will increase.
07:47And then, you know what will happen?
07:49A criminal act could occur from just this private or civil dispute that could have been resolved if they had
07:55a legal intervention.
07:57Now, what prompted you to make sure this initiative was able to jumpstart, as we see?
08:02Yeah, I think I used, because I used to do it small scale from my office, Whitney, with smaller resources,
08:07you could only do so much, right?
08:08And then there was a bigger problem during the COVID lockdown, because so many people face that domestic violence, sort
08:15of, you know, stifling, toxic home environment.
08:19So I said, you know what, the police service are already there on the front line, it's COVID.
08:24Maybe that might be the best avenue, and I ran with that, and that's how we materialized.
08:29And we're seeing five years later that this is something that is needed in many communities.
08:34And I think the major thing is, yes, they know if I can afford it to me, I can, but
08:39more so is that I don't have access financially to have that attorney to deal with domestic issues, property issues.
08:48Matrimonial grievances.
08:49Grievances, which we mentioned on Beyond the Tape many, many times, which we'll be touching on, because it's a lot
08:54to discuss today.
08:55That is correct, you know, and, you know, it's important for that intervention to take place, because, you know, we
09:02don't want to create a situation where we have more violence, and it could, in fact, be abated.
09:07Yes, so how is it that the attorneys now, they are working together with the Oriented Police Unit?
09:15So, like, how is that?
09:16Okay, so it's a collaborative initiative between the Transpago Police Service, but it falls under the autonomy of the Community
09:23Oriented Policing Section.
09:24And then we have the partnership with the volunteer attorney.
09:28So, we started off with six attorneys, and we now have 48 volunteer attorneys.
09:34What?
09:35Yes, and we're speaking about competent attorneys, you know, and that's what I love.
09:39Some of them who are over 10 years in practice, they give the gift of their time, and we're busy
09:44on a normal day, and they still have remained committed over the five years.
09:47Yes, yes, so it was us six there, now 48, and we've been to 124 communities over the last five
09:55years, Whitney, and because of the need for the service, besides just the last Saturday of every month giving that
10:03free legal advice, so many organizations, like Single Mothers Association, or, you know, we always see community fairs trying to
10:08bring services to communities.
10:10We've been to those things, you know, as well as other people who reach out that see the need to
10:15incorporate it into their activity for the day, for the benefit of their target population.
10:20So, how are you all able to take it further, because it's one thing to give advice, where persons need
10:25that direction, but when you realize there's a matter or case that needs more hands-on, do you all step
10:32in?
10:33Okay, so it's predominantly legal advice, but we made a team decision when we recognized so many domestic violence matters
10:40out there, and the need for that intervention to do domestic violence matters pro bono.
10:45So, I think it's important for members of the public to understand that, you know, besides just legal advice, or
10:50if you're in the middle of court proceedings, we take it straight to courtroom where there's the application for the
10:57protection order.
10:57So, domestic violence matters, we do pro bono.
10:59Now, because of our times and schedules, we can't do everything pro bono, and let's be real, some clients come
11:05with land disputes from 15 years ago.
11:07So, it's not urgent in the face of things. It may be urgent to them, but, you know, the domestic
11:12violence matters will weigh on us a little bit more, because it's a vulnerable citizen.
11:16So, we do the domestic violence matters pro bono, and I've actually seen, without even being asked, one of the
11:23attorneys saw an older person who could not afford to pay an attorney to do a will,
11:27and she definitely didn't want certain relatives to get it.
11:30So, it had to be expressly stated in a document.
11:33And he drafted the will on the spot at the St. Clair Police Youth Club location one year.
11:38You know, so hats off to the attorneys in the team who actually just go above and beyond just the
11:44domestic violence matters, which we agreed as a team to do pro bono.
11:47Yeah, because I'm sure persons will say, so we go down and deal with my matter, and when they leave,
11:51they have our attorney now, you know, this attorney.
11:52Yes, and then they really sometimes take to the attorneys, you know, because when we go into the communities, we're
11:57not like stush and dress up in the office, like how people think attorneys are.
12:00We come out on the ground, it's a different, it may be a school we partner with, so the environment
12:06is more warm and receiving, so people feel comfortable.
12:09And then sometimes they say they want us to be an attorney, but one thing we don't do is pump
12:14our private practice, because it will spoil the initiative, right?
12:17So what we do is either assist pro bono, or say, you know, there are other great organizations, legal aid,
12:24you know, other options, some attorneys are trying to give a payment plan, so let's try the other options.
12:28Well, we have more to discuss there, we have some housekeepers to share about, and this one I'm sure that
12:33you saw that video that went viral in Marvel.
12:36Yes.
12:36Right, and everyone was really disturbed, upset the emotions were all over, and it could be any one of our
12:43mothers, aunts, you know, cousins, grandparents, you name it.
12:47But, we have great news, because the TTPS continues to work extremely hard, and I'm telling you all, they got
12:53the individuals, they're in custody, they were able to deal with the matter.
12:57And of course, we will update you with more as we received, and we have a video update that is
13:02going to give you more of what transpired.
13:05So let's take a look.
13:05Okay, great.
13:08Eight men arrested relative to report of robbery with violence in the Sinclair District.
13:39The facts are as follows.
13:43Around 3.10 p.m. on Tuesday 20th October 2026, the victim, a 56-year-old female, withdrew a large
13:52sum of money from a local bank.
13:56She then proceeded to a business place at Saddle Road, Marvel, driving her white Kia Sportage vehicle, and parked the
14:03vehicle in the car park of the business place.
14:05The victim went into the business place, and whilst returning to her vehicle, approximately 3.37 p.m., she was
14:15approached by three men of African descent who exited a silver Tida motor vehicle.
14:21Approached her and began dealing her several blows about her body and head, and then snatched her black bar containing
14:29$22,000 Trinidad and Tobago currency,
14:34one iPhone 12, value to be ascertained, and three bank cards.
14:39The suspects then entered a silver Tida and made good their escape proceeding south on Saddle Road, Marvel.
14:51A report was made to the Sinclair Police Station, and an immediate operation was launched.
14:57Officers received further information and intercepted a black Honda City motor car, registration number PDY4230,
15:07at Moncoco Road, PT Valley, in the vicinity of Yogi Drive, with four male occupants.
15:17They were immediately arrested and assisting officers with this investigation.
15:23Arising out of the entire operation, a total of eight suspects were arrested.
15:29The officers later proceeded to North Coast Road, opposite Maracas Bay, where a gray Nissan Tida registration number PDN-5390,
15:40believed to be the vehicle used to commit the crime, was found, minus the battery.
15:47A handbag containing a purse and several paperwork, identified as property of the victim, was found inside the vehicle.
15:55The vehicle was seized on further investigation.
16:01This exercise was sanctioned by Senior Superintendent Williams of the Western Division,
16:08coordinated by Superintendent Archibald, Acting Assistant Superintendent Besant, Acting Inspector Perry, Acting Sergeant Dominique,
16:17and included several officers of the Western Division Gang and Intelligence Unit.
16:22Also, Acting Inspector Jairam and other officers of the Portospin Gang and Intelligence Unit,
16:29the Northeastern Division Task Force, the West End Police Station, and the Northeastern Division Crime Scene Unit.
16:40And that was the TTPS Media Briefing, and we saw ASP Russell there giving us the details.
16:45Of course, we will get more information from him when he joins us tomorrow.
16:49Now, we have our attorney at law, Ms. Kadir, and we continue the conversation further,
16:54because I know if persons are now tuning in, what we're discussing today, and it's all about CJC.
17:00And this is something where many of us need to understand.
17:03Community justice is something that we need to get more involved in so we can understand what is taking place
17:09and the laws and what services are provided by the TTPS.
17:12And I'm really excited for forums like these that share the information.
17:15So, it's our five-year anniversary, as you were saying, and on the last week of October, Monday, 26th, Friday,
17:2430th of October,
17:25we will actually be hosting several lectures or webinars on prevalent topics that we've seen over the five years.
17:34So, on Monday, we'll be doing, yes, I see it's up there already, you know,
17:38and these things are important because these are the common topics we actually have seen over the past five years.
17:44And we wanted an inclusivity sort of approach.
17:49So, we are doing this virtual, but we're also keeping our tradition, which is the last Saturday of every month,
17:56and we will be at the Presentation College, Shigonus.
17:59We are doing private and civil matters, any non-criminal matters then, right?
18:03All right, understood.
18:04So, people who cannot attend the webinars or benefit from the legal education awareness sessions,
18:10they can actually come in on the Saturday and ask any legal questions or have their concerns addressed.
18:16Yes, and I hope that you'll be able to attend.
18:18It's very important that we always keep in the know.
18:21Right now, it's time for us to take a look at what's making today's headlines.
18:46And those are your stories making today's headlines.
18:49Just a reminder, today we have, stepping in, just for a special that we have in with the CJC,
18:55we have our attorney at law, which is Ms. Sajina Khadir,
18:59who will be joining us this evening and discussing more of what is going on with the clinic
19:05and how persons could get involved.
19:07And remember, you could also give us a call at 623-1711-extension-1996 or 1997.
19:13We'll be back.
19:17Over 40 years in the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service has taught me one important lesson.
19:26Evidence matters.
19:29In policing, we rely on evidence to establish the facts and make informed decisions.
19:37Therefore, improving policing should be no different.
19:42That's why your participation in the TTPS Public Satisfaction Survey is so important.
19:50Your honest feedback provides the evidence needed to understand what's working, what isn't,
19:57and where improvements are necessary.
20:00Don't leave it to someone else to tell your story.
20:04Your experience is evidence.
20:06Your perspective matters.
20:09Take the survey today.
20:14You should have.
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20:42We're like coworkers who don't forget your name.
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20:48Good like that.
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23:19And we are back.
23:21And of course, we have our attorney at law, Sajina Kadir.
23:25And she is here to discuss more of what the Community Justice Clinic is about.
23:30And as we mentioned, where we showed, you know, what the discussions will be happening at the webinar and the
23:35days that persons could come and speak.
23:37I know persons will have many more questions to dive into.
23:41But before we do that, I just want to mention to persons tomorrow.
23:44Do not forget, we get ready for the TTPS Tongue Meeting.
23:46And that is in the Eastern Division for Thursday, the 22nd of October at the Kumana Community Center, Toko Main
23:53Road.
23:54Toko from 6 p.m.
23:56Remember, if you need to get more information, you could go on www.ttps.gov.tt or their Facebook page.
24:03And also their Instagram, X and YouTube.
24:06And they have a WhatsApp there for you.
24:08It starts at 6 p.m.
24:10Do not be late.
24:10And if you are a little late, try to get in as quickly as possible to connect with the officers
24:15and find out more.
24:17Just like how we have with the clinic here.
24:19And we continue that conversation.
24:20And, you know, I have my little notes here because I know it's important as best as I can give
24:24the information when it comes to certain questions.
24:27Of course.
24:28Could we start off with legal disputes and violence?
24:31Yes.
24:31Tell us a little bit more about that.
24:32How does that link between those two?
24:34Yeah, it's definitely correlated.
24:36I will say, you know, you have these private and civil disputes.
24:40And I'll give an example.
24:41So if you have a contentious separation issue and, you know, they're going back and forth with a custody battle.
24:48Out of the frustration, if it's not ventilated as it ought to, it can build and it can escalate into
24:56anger and acts of domestic violence or harassment and threats.
24:59So with the community justice clinic, what we're doing is when we provide that timely, early legal intervention, the aggrieved
25:11person knows their rights.
25:12So if you're frustrated, for example, that you're not getting maintenance and you're asking for any demand in it and
25:18it turns into this verbal argument and this toxic environment, like we were saying, there are options.
25:24You just need to know it and you need to approach the system that is there 24-7 to serve.
25:29So when that is, obviously, the person having that information, you will still need an attorney, no?
25:37Yes.
25:37But with the knowledge, it can still guide you.
25:39I definitely believe the knowledge, if an attorney, a diligent attorney, ought to take their time to, you know, run
25:46through things in a manner that people understand.
25:48Now the benefit of an attorney is the legal jargon, you know, mightn't be understood.
25:53But the court's duty and the presiding magistrate or judge's duty is to rely on what the law provides.
26:01So even if somebody fumbles and doesn't have an attorney or can't afford an attorney or chooses not to have
26:06an attorney or go for legal aid, the court's responsibility is to protect vulnerable citizens or administrate justice in a
26:13fair manner using the law.
26:15So it might seem that they are disadvantaged, they may have the fallback comforts of an attorney, but they ought
26:20not to be disadvantaged because the law doesn't change if you have an attorney or if you don't have an
26:24attorney.
26:24Very true.
26:25You have to articulate what you're feeling regardless.
26:27So what are some of the disputes you encounter quite often?
26:31So we've been both Trinidad and Tobacco in this project.
26:35So predominantly in Trinidad, we see matrimonial grievances such as divorce, custody, access, maintenance, and most prevalent of the 124
26:45communities we've been to is domestic violence.
26:47And we see it both in males and females.
26:50So, you know, I always say violence doesn't favor gender.
26:53It can happen to anybody.
26:54And I've observed as a team leader in this project over the time period, the men aren't being apprehensive.
27:00There's a free service.
27:01I cannot live like this, you know, to say one life to live, I'm going to find my exit, you
27:07know.
27:07And then across in Tobago now, we see a lot of land and estate issues.
27:12Really?
27:13Yes.
27:13Now, before you jump there, you spoke of the marital side.
27:17Yes.
27:17But what about persons who live common law?
27:19Right.
27:20So with common law, they have these similar rights to that of a married party.
27:25You know, you just have to prove that you're a common law because anybody could say they live in, let
27:28me just say with Prince Harry.
27:30Yes, yes, yes.
27:31And then they want all this money.
27:32But you have to convince the court that, yes, you have been living in a domestic-like relationship for over
27:38five years.
27:39And then you meet the threshold to make any argument for property settlement and that sort of thing after declaring
27:46you a common law spouse.
27:47So, I mean, you said we're perfectly there.
27:49Yes.
27:49Property.
27:50You said we're at Tobago now.
27:51We're seeing property and land.
27:52Yes.
27:52So, we're actually seeing in Tobago, so if one client comes to us in Tobago, they may have multiple matters
28:00with me.
28:00So, I was curious and I asked them why.
28:03Yeah, because I'm curious, like, what are multiple matters?
28:05Yes, because I wonder.
28:06So, some of them actually said they come to Trinidad for an attorney.
28:09Some of them say they just prefer to wait on a project like this to come to see an attorney.
28:14So, I'm trying to figure it out myself because I definitely observe that they come with multiple matters and it's
28:21always land and estate.
28:22And the estate doesn't take you back to the grandmother.
28:25It's taking you back way, way beyond that to the great-grandparents and stuff.
28:29Ancestors.
28:30Yes.
28:30So, you know, that's why I always say the need for this is necessary because then it gives an avenue
28:37for somebody to get the help that they need to solve their legal grievance.
28:40All right, so let's stick there because, I mean, persons, even in Trinidad, will have land and property disputes.
28:46Yes, that's good.
28:46But from what I'm understanding here, what most commonly people have a mistake when it comes to land and the
28:53property.
28:54Yes.
28:55Explain.
28:55All right.
28:56So, property and matrimonial grievances include, we call it matrimonial assets.
29:00So, anything from the date of the marriage to the date of the divorce petition file.
29:03So, property could be like your vehicle, your furniture, your fixtures, your jewelry, property settlement, then house, land.
29:14But, you see, land law now is quantified so separately.
29:17Land has to do with where the house rests on.
29:20Land and house can't be treated as separate entities.
29:23Cannot?
29:23No.
29:24So, sometimes you have this misconception where people say property and land and use it interchangeably.
29:29But it has a wider scope when we say property.
29:31Okay.
29:32Very, very interesting.
29:33And I have something I want to ask you, but this is more important before we move forward.
29:40Now, I want to find out which legal advice, when you're diffusing a situation that could have turned deadly, what
29:49could be done there?
29:50So, at the point when they come to us and it actually happened, I can give you an example, maintaining
29:56confidentiality, of course,
29:58that a woman, a victim of violence, she came, she was so frustrated, she had so many gruesome images.
30:05I actually saw the client and, you know, she made a comment that she would kill the person.
30:11And it is at that point, I always say a diligent practitioner ought to know when litigation is necessary or
30:19when counseling and evaluation or mediation, all of that.
30:24So, you treat with something holistically.
30:25So, in that situation, I specifically told her, yes, you apply for a protection order, but you're simultaneously going to
30:34national family services to seek evaluation and counseling.
30:38Because we don't want her to leave the clinic not feeling that the free resources that exist in Trinidad, beyond
30:46the Community Justice Clinic,
30:47they have free services with counseling and stuff, through Ministry of Social Development and stuff.
30:51So, we want to make sure that they leave knowing that they have options.
30:55They always say you can only take the horse to the water, you can't make it, drink it.
30:58You know, but we get the sense of satisfaction that we have given the holistic advice, not just the draconian
31:04litigation sort of fruits.
31:06Now, I ask that question for a reason, and when we come back from the break, we will tie it
31:10in.
31:10And remember, you could give us a call as well.
31:12We'll be back after this.
31:15You need five.
31:17Five minutes.
31:18That's all it will take for you to complete the Trinidad and Tobago Police Service Public Satisfaction Survey on your
31:25phone.
31:26Yes, five minutes.
31:28That's all it will take for you to share your experience with the police, what we're doing well, and even
31:36ways in which we can improve.
31:38Your feedback will help us improve the quality of service we give to you in our stations, on our streets,
31:46or even when you call for help.
31:48So, just give us five minutes.
31:51Take this away, share your perspective, and help us improve our service.
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33:34The catfish has been everywhere, and now it heads to the Central Bank Auditorium.
33:39Catfish, everybody eating, comes to Central Bank for two nights only, on Saturday, October 31st at 8.30pm, and Sunday,
33:46the 1st of November at 6.30pm.
33:48Tickets available at the Central Bank Box Office from Monday the 26th of October, and tickets available at all usual
33:53outlets and at rsrrproductions.com.
33:57Don't miss it, don't miss it, catfish, everybody eating, now comes to the Central Bank Auditorium.
34:03Don't miss it.
34:04Catfish!
34:14And we are back, don't forget, you can give us a call at 623-1711, extension 1996 or 1997.
34:21We have our attorney at law, Ms. Khadir, here with us, and we continue, and I asked you when you
34:27mentioned of, you know, that protection order.
34:29And that is something that many persons, we hear it, and they're like, um, that'll really work.
34:36Yes.
34:37That's just a piece of paper.
34:38Yes.
34:39Is that true?
34:39You know, I'm not very proud to say this part of things, but I used to wonder why some of
34:45my own clients, because I do heavy domestic violence and family law,
34:47and I always wondered why some of them would just not, just come out of the situation.
34:52Yes.
34:52So I belong in that category, maybe I would have said that at some point in time,
34:56but through my own decision to, like, do professional development courses in trying to understand emotional abuse and the cycle
35:01of abuse,
35:02they may not see it like us, so they have to have either a supportive relative or friend, an attorney,
35:09somebody to guide them, to help them understand,
35:11yes, it's a paper, but there are powers that be beyond just the courtroom, so we have law enforcement,
35:19and they work hand-in-hand in an integrated approach.
35:21So when the protection order is given, which is the paper that we're worrying if it's just a comfort, right,
35:27the police, the person has to have that mental strength, but the court still sends it across to the police
35:32station,
35:33where it is lodged, and then the police ought now to do their duty, which is, listen, we will have
35:39to serve this protection order on him,
35:41it's how we speak to him when he, when we go to serve it.
35:44So it's a hand-in-hand approach, so when you're vulnerable, it's easy, or when you're angry with somebody you
35:50love,
35:50and you want them to just come out of this cycle with me, you want them to come out of
35:53this abuse,
35:54you might say, well, it's just a paper comfort, and you even want to take things in your own hands,
35:58but when you understand that the system is there to work for you, if you understand,
36:03and everybody who is responsible adopts that integrated approach, it's not just a paper comfort.
36:08Well, we're going deeper there, we have a call on, a whole call on, good evening, and welcome.
36:14Oh, let's listen to the word on you.
36:16Hi, good evening to you.
36:17Hi, good evening.
36:18You're lovely ladies in black.
36:22I look like a dangerous deal.
36:24I love it.
36:25Okay.
36:26Our good question is, I don't know if it's going to be a legal question,
36:31when you post a deal, let's say you're a hundred, somebody and a hundred thousand dollars deal, right,
36:37and you post it, and you win your case, do you get back that money, or what?
36:44How do you go about getting it back?
36:46You know, it was innocent, and you win your case, so thank you a lot, and we didn't stop it.
36:52Oh, he's gone?
36:53Right.
36:54All right.
36:55So, you know, the attorney in me has about 200 questions for him,
37:00because, you know, I must act responsibly in what I am saying,
37:03so I will just touch on it versus delve into detail, but, you know, there's bail, cash bail,
37:09and then there's bail with surety, which is against a particular property.
37:13So, when he says get back the money, I'm really curious where he is coming from with that.
37:19So, I'm assuming that he's stating, all right, you pay for the person's bail,
37:25the matter is still before the court, you're able to be out until the matter's call,
37:29and then when a verdict is read, it's said that you are now not guilty.
37:33Right.
37:34But what happens with the bail money?
37:35The bond is released against whatever property is being held on, and that kind of thing, but he said...
37:40Or what about the cash value?
37:41Right.
37:41So, everything, yes, everything is released, you know, but I still would prefer,
37:46you know, I will tell that caller, take advantage of the legal clinic,
37:49come down, and I will deal with you.
37:51You are true attorney.
37:52Yes, yes.
37:52I will not put in your mouth at all.
37:54Now, we go back now to what we were discussing with the protection order,
37:58and I know some people say restraining order, but that is not the term that we use in Trinidad and
38:02Tobago,
38:02just to be clear.
38:03Yes, so, I mean, I figure, like, you know, people say restraining order because, you know, it has grown on
38:07us.
38:08Yes.
38:08You know, and people understand it.
38:09Because of that culture, the American culture.
38:10Yes, yes, and people understand it.
38:12They say, like, I just don't want him by me, I don't want him by me, so it's like a
38:15restrain then.
38:16So, they kind of take it in a literal sense, but the correct phrasing will be an application for protection
38:20order for domestic violence.
38:21So, let's now move into property.
38:25Yes.
38:25And in this case, this is a dwelling.
38:28Right.
38:28Of someone living, they own the place, A, owns the place, and a friend asks me, listen, I want, I
38:35need a place to stay, I have nowhere to stay.
38:37Yes.
38:37And I said to my friend, no problem, you can stay by me.
38:40How long are you looking to stay?
38:41About three weeks to catch myself, or maybe a month and a half, so I can get, you know, things
38:46going.
38:46Yes.
38:46The person stayed longer than the month and a half.
38:50Yes.
38:50Going into six months, and then eventually realized, wait, this person is not.
38:53They're comfortable.
38:54Yeah, they're not moving.
38:55Never going nowhere.
38:55That is, you need to get out now, and now the person takes legal action against me.
39:01Right.
39:02So, that house owner, you know, when you think smiling, everything good and stuff, you may forget to put things
39:08in writing.
39:09You know, and that could cost you.
39:11But, you know, if it's a friend, you don't have to write down everything, too.
39:14So, you have to kind of strike a balance in the person clearly and expressly understanding that, listen, you are
39:20here as what we call in law a mere licensee to occupy the premises, which means that you don't own
39:27anything, you're not going to own anything.
39:28And when I want you to write out, you've got to write out.
39:31Simple.
39:32So, if you don't put that on paper.
39:33Yes.
39:34That's problems.
39:35So, a civil matter like that is decided on a balance of probabilities.
39:38Who is to more believe than not?
39:40So, it's arguable either way.
39:41Even if it does not have a paper, you may have WhatsApp messages and your evidence could come forward.
39:46But, you know, I would always strongly urge people, no matter how nice something is documented, because it might actually
39:51be the substantiating document that might save you in the long run.
39:54That person, Whitney.
39:55It's crazy.
39:55Yeah, that person literally needs to say, listen, I'd like you to come out of my house.
39:59But the problem comes if, you know, you sit by, you allow something to happen, which is the guest or
40:06the person with the licensee going and spending money to renovate the room they're staying in.
40:10And you're seeing that happening and you're not stopping them.
40:12And bringing items in.
40:13Right.
40:13But you're not stopping them.
40:15Then, you know, compensation, if you may arise, you can't leave my property if I tell you to leave.
40:20And I benefit from all your work.
40:22You might have to pay.
40:22That's how you can take your stuff.
40:23Right.
40:24You can take your stuff or I will have to compensate you because my property now appreciating value and now
40:29I tell them you leave.
40:30So, it's so arguable in law.
40:32That's why we have to have express terms.
40:34Listen to me.
40:36Keep people out your place.
40:37That's the best thing to do.
40:38If you have extra capital that you can, you know, give the person to start, you know, afresh, do that
40:46because...
40:47Or document everything.
40:48This is serious.
40:49This could happen to many persons.
40:50I'm sure it's happening to some people.
40:51But what if that person is paying, let's say, a bill in the set house?
40:56Then it will show that...
40:58Right.
40:59So, it will show that they have some connection.
41:00It could still remain that they are licensee.
41:02But in order for you to do that, well, you help me out with the bills.
41:05You help me out with something.
41:07Because, you know, you could be a licensee to occupy, but you come in the kitchen and eating all the
41:11man food.
41:11You understand?
41:12Like that.
41:13So, you might contribute to the household or the dwelling in which you occupy as a licensee.
41:17But it doesn't give you exclusive rights to own the property or oust the legal entitlement of that person who
41:23owns the property.
41:23I think the best thing to do is make sure that black and white...
41:27That's exactly what it is.
41:28Black and white.
41:29That is important in almost everything we do.
41:31Just to safeguard yourself.
41:32Yeah.
41:32So, as you said, with properties now.
41:34Now, so persons, if it is that I am, let's say, loaning you on device.
41:40Yes.
41:40You could put that in paper as well.
41:42Yes, yes.
41:42Just to safeguard it.
41:43Yes.
41:43Any lawful transaction, putting it in agreement will always be what you rely on if there's a problem.
41:49And I always say to my clients, people, and even the persons who come to the legal clinic,
41:53because we see similar things, you know, I always encourage them to put it in writing because that's your evidence.
42:00Yes.
42:00That's what you rely on in courts.
42:02All right.
42:02So, this one here I know many persons try to shy away from, but I know we have to take
42:07that break.
42:08So, when we come back, we will touch on it because we need to maintain that police and civilian connection.
42:13All right.
42:14We take that break.
42:14We'll be back.
42:16For five years, the TTPS Community Justice Clinic has been helping citizens better understand their legal rights and access the
42:23guidance they need.
42:24To celebrate our fifth anniversary, we are bringing legal education directly to you.
42:29Five nights, five conversations, and we will be covering the following topics.
42:34Divorce, custody, access, maintenance, property rights, domestic violence, adverse possession, and squatter's rights, as well as letters of administration and
42:45probate.
42:46Join us from October 26th to 30th, from 6 to 30 p.m. to 7 to 30 p.m. daily
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42:54Get informed, ask questions, know your rights, and join us for CJC 5.
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44:52Because when the forecast changes, you should never be caught off guard.
45:17And we are back now.
45:19Let's dive straight into, you know how persons feel towards, well some, not all, towards the TTPS.
45:26And because the clinic is associated with the TTPS, persons could be hesitant.
45:32Yes.
45:33Where could you guide us there to make them know that this is a safe space?
45:37Of course.
45:38You know, I would say to members of the public, lockdown and viewing that, you know, in any organization, there's
45:44both good and bad.
45:45And it's my humble opinion that with the police service, because they are more in the forefront of things, we
45:51see what's going on more.
45:52It doesn't mean that the other organization does not have issues.
45:55So, because the good always outweighs the bad, I will encourage members of the public to come out, even on
46:03the day of the clinic, you know.
46:04Even besides the activities for the Community Justice Clinic 5, we are there the last Saturday of every month.
46:10And you could see for yourself on the ground where the police are at hand.
46:14So, the attainees aren't just there to give advice.
46:16The officers, senior officers, are there on the day.
46:19And they actually, you know, if there's an issue with the police, they give them a hearing.
46:25They vent their issues, which is half the issues.
46:28They want somebody to listen.
46:29Yes.
46:29Somebody senior.
46:31And also, too, you know, if a summons needs to be served, they're there.
46:35And I can tell members of the public, you know, hands down, I see for myself.
46:39So, I'm a civilian first, right, before all this lotting.
46:42And I work in the community, so the attorneys do a joint work with the police service on a monthly
46:47basis at best.
46:49And when we go out in the communities, they are so excited, members of the public.
46:53So, it's more people see the good than people see the bad, in my observations, right?
46:59I will say that exclusively.
47:02Because I see when they come out and they say, officer, how are you going?
47:06They even say, I want something to drink.
47:08And there's a sort of camaraderie.
47:09And I think those things enter the communities.
47:12You see, in attorneys and officers, you know, coming out in sync, such partnership,
47:17that it increases the public trust and confidence and police legitimacy so that they feel more comfortable.
47:24All right.
47:25We have a caller this time.
47:26Caller, good evening.
47:28Hello.
47:30Hello.
47:30So, good evening to you ladies.
47:32Good evening to you, mom.
47:34Yes.
47:34Listen to me, it's a really, really important thing that you all are doing.
47:38And I'm sorry about you, you know, a lot of things.
47:42But my question is, how difficult is it for someone to be on protection and living in the same house?
47:49Because I know somebody who said, I'm not sleeping, you know, I'm not sleeping.
47:52How difficult is it for someone to be on protection and living in the same house?
47:57Thank you very much.
47:58All right.
47:58So, because I'm not into psychology as good as I should, I could put forward something if it's asked a
48:05psychologist.
48:06For my basic knowledge, I'll say this.
48:08You still remain in the same toxic environment.
48:10So, nothing is altering.
48:12So, even if the court grants a protection order that you are not to be verbally abusive to the person,
48:20the person is still in your face.
48:22Being human, being, if they don't go and take that counseling, if they don't go and do mediation, it may
48:29repeat itself.
48:30So, it's not impossible to live there.
48:33But there could be challenges.
48:35And that could, the court could issue that.
48:37Yes.
48:38Excuse me.
48:39The court could, in fact, issue a protection order on specific terms if they're seeing the property.
48:44But it's always better.
48:46If you live in a mansion.
48:47Yeah.
48:47And that's why I say, and that's why Whitney mediation is so important.
48:51It could help you determine, and I've seen this in a matter, it helped, it was a big property, right?
48:56It wasn't a mansion.
48:57It was a big property, right?
48:59Well done.
48:59Well done.
48:59Right.
49:00So, they were actually able to have two separate entrances.
49:04And they broke down the communal area.
49:07So, they had two kitchens.
49:08They had two living rooms.
49:10And it actually happened.
49:11The problem came in.
49:12And I saw this with myself.
49:14When the person found another partner and they come in on the property, that is when the fuel could be
49:20put in the fire and things escalate.
49:21So, you have to be very mindful of that.
49:23Yes.
49:23So, I always encourage people.
49:25You know, I grew up hearing a saying, worry is rocking on a rocking chair, going back and forth.
49:29You have to do something about it or you'll be stuck.
49:31I really strongly believe if you make the step to get that protection order and you broke that cycle of
49:36abuse and apply to the court for it,
49:38then engage you at the services that are there to help you resolve property issues, which might be the crux
49:42of the next problem.
49:44Yeah.
49:45So, you're putting in some persons to get married and it shouldn't.
49:48I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but that is just the reality of some.
49:51And if it reaches to that, how you could dissolve that situation?
49:56Yes.
49:56That's why they always say no, your partner.
49:57And it's very particular with me because I see, like, young parties getting married and divorced so much so that
50:04I actually did a property settlement with the loan they took for their wedding.
50:08So, I mean, if you don't know your partner, you know, yes, you must know what you're stepping into.
50:14Like a divorce attorney is having a time.
50:16Yes.
50:17I shouldn't say it like that.
50:18I hear you.
50:19No, but that's just really what it is right now.
50:21So, you have to be very mindful.
50:22Yes, yes.
50:22When it comes to, so can I ask you this, since you open that door, I get married, things didn't
50:29work out.
50:30Now, we're going to a divorce.
50:32The items or properties that I may have attained before my marriage, is it mine or we have two now
50:41equally?
50:42So, you're walking into this marriage with your matrimonial assets.
50:46Yes.
50:47So, what comes before the court will be anything before the divorce petition files.
50:52So, everything is constituting matrimonial assets.
50:56Yeah.
50:57What?
50:57Including the cup.
50:59Yeah.
51:00I've had people argue for wares and stuff.
51:02That's why I always say.
51:03That's petty.
51:04Yeah.
51:04I always say, you know, that's why when we have platforms like Your Good Self and other media houses that
51:10promote the awareness.
51:11You know, people will understand maybe even before going into the marriage or during the marriage,
51:14if they're having a friction, what their options are, in fact.
51:18All right.
51:18So, let's look ahead at this time.
51:21What has the clinic achieved that you are most proud of?
51:25I would definitely say, because I always find that we are humans before all our titles,
51:34I think what we've achieved the most is an understanding that no man is an island and we should really
51:41work in an integrated approach.
51:42So, that is why when Michael Peer was in charge of community-oriented section and the then DCP and commissioner
51:48gave the project a chance,
51:51they saw it as important to work alongside persons who could act for the greater good.
51:57And similarly with the volunteer attorneys, we're busy, but they see the need to take time to give back.
52:03So, both sides see the need beyond just, you know, a duty, the police with a community-oriented approach to
52:11take this service to the citizens
52:13and the attorneys who feel the need to give back.
52:16My proud moment is recognizing people still are human beings before the title.
52:20Of course.
52:20I love that.
52:21Humility.
52:22That's correct.
52:23That's right.
52:23What challenges do you all still face, if any?
52:25I will say, you know, I would encourage my colleagues, you know, it's always better to have more resources.
52:33Yes.
52:33And I will encourage, you know, the officers who may come just like anybody else as a duty to see
52:40beyond the bigger picture.
52:41You know, so on both ends, we could always do better.
52:44And I think when we recognize that, there's room for growth.
52:47All right.
52:48So, speaking of growth, you're looking to expand further.
52:52Right.
52:52Into Tobago.
52:53Right.
52:54What's going on there?
52:54So, we never leave off Tobago and the community-oriented section has, we're supposed to be going to Tobago at
53:01the end of November.
53:02But because we're embarking on this legal education virtually and it's creating a sense of inclusivity,
53:10we may consider, besides the last Saturday of every month going into two communities, as we've done for the last
53:15five years,
53:15we may consider a virtual twist because we already see it is engaging members of the public so much that,
53:21you know,
53:22they're seeing the good of it being virtual.
53:24Because think about it, you could be doing an activity, have your Zoom on and be getting your knowledge, right?
53:31So, it is an aspect in terms of any alterations to what we were doing the last Saturday of every
53:35month to include a virtual option, perhaps.
53:37Yes.
53:38Now, I'm sure we have a lot of attorneys, young attorneys at that, who may be interested in, because you
53:44said it's Saturday at 6.
53:46Yes.
53:46Now you're at 48.
53:47Yes.
53:48How we could add more?
53:49How could attorneys join?
53:50So, the attorneys could reach out to me.
53:53They could contact the law association for my number if they so desire or do something that people do every
53:57day, turn to Google.
53:59But, you know, as you say, young attorneys, the project also has facilitated interns or young attorneys to sit alongside
54:07a senior.
54:08Yes, yes, yes.
54:08So, they benefit from the learning.
54:10So, not only do citizens benefit, but young practitioners also sit alongside with us and they enhance their interviewing skills
54:16and become familiar with common issues as well.
54:18All right.
54:19I know we have so much to discuss.
54:21Yes.
54:22And time is against us.
54:23Yes.
54:23But quickly, the myths about squatting, because we know squatting is a big thing.
54:27Of course.
54:28We have quizzes, of course.
54:29Yes.
54:29You know, with squatting in Trinidad, we have this misconception that, so somebody come here, they put on new property,
54:36they say, that is mine.
54:37Yes.
54:38I own here.
54:39But people have to recognize there's a principle that says you must mitigate your own losses.
54:44So, if you don't do a search to see who owns that land and in six months you build up
54:50a nice mansion, we talk about it, and you didn't do that search and the owner comes around and asks
54:56you to move, you have not meet the threshold in that six-month period for you to have legal rights
55:03of an owner extinguished or for you to have what we call in law equitable rights, like principles of fairness.
55:09I stayed so long, there was acquiescence to the situation, the owner stood by, saw me there, didn't do anything,
55:15so I developed my rights.
55:16But you have to cross the number of years, be it private or public lands.
55:22Is there a...
55:22Yes, 16-year period for private and 30 for state lands.
55:25So, you actually have to cross that threshold to say, yes, it's mine.
55:3116 and 30.
55:32So, unless in that six months the owner comes around and says, yeah, I'm gifting it to you, which is
55:37what I'm selling it to you.
55:40Unless they really, really like you and appreciate what you do for them.
55:42I don't know, that can happen.
55:43But I know we have a few minutes and I give you the opportunity to speak to the public, Ms.
55:48Kadir, and let them know more about the CJC.
55:51I will say, you know, there's no shame in having a legal issue.
55:55The shame will actually be to no programs like this or other resources exist in Trinidad, and it's free, and
56:03not take advantage of the free service.
56:05So, no registration is required.
56:07Any member of the public could attend the locations for the clinic and tune in to Zoom and take advantage
56:11of the free service being offered.
56:13Now, we'd like to thank you so much for being here with us.
56:15And I know you will not be a stranger moving forward because of people.
56:18I'm always for having female presence around.
56:21And you've been very warm as well.
56:23Thank you with me.
56:24Thank you so much and continue the great work that you are doing.
56:27Of course, I will share your sentiments with you.
56:28And of course, you will be seeing her as well when they have the clinics, the webinars that will be
56:31taking place.
56:32I don't know if Jackie can bring it back up again so people can see the dates, but if not,
56:36where they can follow?
56:37They can find us on any of the social media platforms or contact the community-oriented police in section at
56:42627-9087 or 480-1421.
56:47Our attorney at law, Ms. Kadir, thank you so much for being here.
56:51Thank you as well, Whitney.
56:51And have an enjoyable evening.
56:53Of course, you also.
56:54That's it for us, guys.
56:55I hope you were able to get all the information as needed and more.
56:59It's time for our news up next at 7.
57:01Be safe.
57:01Continue being hard targets out there.
57:03God bless.
57:04We're out.
57:11Just ahead of the time.
57:14Just ahead of the time.
57:16Just ahead of the time.
57:26Just ahead of the time.