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SportsTranscript
00:00Lima today posed just what we thought was an interesting question.
00:04It wasn't anything more than that, and I think there's something valid about the question.
00:08It doesn't mean that Donovan is less than or more than.
00:12It's just something to ponder.
00:13Here was Lima today.
00:14I have to say it seems like Clevelanders are being the most unfair that I can remember them being towards
00:22an athlete.
00:23But Donovan?
00:24Yes, and here's what I mean by that.
00:25Like, the general malaise over the basketball team that we felt this year for, again, yet another year where he
00:33was a top 10, top 12, whatever you want to call it, player in the NBA.
00:36He's been that good.
00:37He's completely raised the floor of a Cleveland sports team.
00:42You're not going to have a bad Cleveland team that involves Donovan Mitchell, at least as long as he's close
00:47to his prime.
00:48It's not going to happen.
00:49He guarantees you all these exciting moments, even during the malaise.
00:54He still has these incredible moments.
00:56Then, come playoff time, has he not had some of the biggest playoff moments?
01:02And he even hit 39 points and a half.
01:05Did he not?
01:06Like, that just doesn't happen.
01:08You can't just create guys like that in a lab.
01:11And yet, seems to me, nobody really seems to care all that much.
01:14Like, he's been drama-free.
01:17He has been drama-free.
01:19You know, we have to give him some.
01:20He's trying to be.
01:21Well, all right.
01:22I mean, okay, what drama has he caused?
01:25Well, I'm not saying he's caused it.
01:26I'm just saying he's made the effort to be drama-free.
01:29The drama, when it comes to him, has always been the commitment, the contract, whatever.
01:35I'm not putting that on Donovan.
01:37I'm just saying that's just inherent.
01:39Like, he has made the effort to be as drama-free as possible.
01:43You know what?
01:43I have a take on this, but I actually want to hear you go first.
01:46Because you seemed, as you were listening to that, you seemed a little bothered.
01:48It seems like you might have something to say here.
01:50No, I just.
01:52The issue I have, he had a game.
01:55It was in the Piston Series.
01:56He had 29 points through the first three quarters.
01:58And then he spent the entire fourth quarter deferring.
02:01And the Cavs lost the game.
02:03And, like, yes, he's had some spectacular moments.
02:07No question about it.
02:08The Cavaliers would be, they would not be where they were, or are, I should say, without Donovan Mitchell.
02:16Okay?
02:16I will grant you that.
02:18I just feel like, with Donovan, there's a ceiling.
02:22They're just, they're going to be, they're only going to go so far.
02:25To your point earlier, they need a Batman.
02:28They need somebody to take the reins of this thing.
02:33And that's not me throwing shade at Donovan.
02:36Like, any, I feel like any time you criticize anybody, whether it's not, just in general,
02:42it's perceived as, oh, you're a hater.
02:45You're throwing shade.
02:46You don't respect or appreciate or whatever.
02:48No.
02:49Quite.
02:49I have tremendous respect and appreciation for what Donovan Mitchell has brought to the Cavaliers.
02:54How he's embraced being in Cleveland and being a Clevelander and all that.
02:59Yeah.
02:59Okay?
03:00That doesn't mean I can't be critical of certain things.
03:03I'm critical of how he does finish games.
03:05Sometimes he finishes them, and then sometimes he defers.
03:08That's not a stone-cold killer.
03:10And when you're talking about reaching a certain economic level when it comes to players,
03:14it's not my money.
03:15It's Dan Gilbert's money.
03:16I'm all for spending billionaires' money.
03:17Okay?
03:18I don't care.
03:19I'm not pocket-watching anyone.
03:20I'm just saying, I don't know that $70 million is a great value for a guy who's not a stone
03:25-cold killer.
03:26He's a great player.
03:28Undeniable.
03:29He's not a stone-cold killer.
03:30He's not Jalen Brunson.
03:31Okay?
03:32No, he's not.
03:33No, he's not.
03:33And so, like, look at the end of Game 1.
03:36Like, okay, that 39-point game that Lima brought up.
03:40What did Donovan do in Game 6 after that?
03:43Nothing.
03:45He was gassed.
03:49He wasn't able to recover.
03:50And I realize they were in that stretch of they're playing every other day.
03:54But, hey, that's the situation you put yourself in by playing, you know, the two Game 7s that you did.
04:00And you have to suck it up.
04:02Deal with it.
04:03That's your job.
04:04So, like, that's the thing where I struggle with Donovan sometimes.
04:08I acknowledge his greatness and that he's a tremendous person.
04:12And he has really embraced being in Cleveland and has pushed this Cavalier post-LeBron 2.0 rebuild.
04:20He pushed it into overdrive and accelerated that timeline.
04:25And I'm happy that the Cavaliers are a perennial playoff team.
04:28And I'm happy that we're sitting here arguing and debating what it's going to take to bring – what's the
04:33next piece they can bring in to help Donovan and the Cavs get to where the Knicks got, right?
04:39Get to where they were with LeBron.
04:40Like, I will take that over the conversations we always have about the Cleveland Browns, okay?
04:47I will take that all the time.
04:49But that doesn't mean that I can't be critical.
04:52You know what I mean?
04:52And that doesn't mean I'm hating on Donovan.
04:54He's just like –
04:55He's not above criticism.
04:56I get that.
04:57Yeah.
04:57But, like, when you get to a certain level for me, like, when you make that kind of money, they're
05:03just expectations that come with it.
05:05And I just feel like if he would come and say, you know what, give me $60 million, take that
05:11$10 million, put it back in the team.
05:12So part of the reason why I always felt like it was – and this is – again, I've changed
05:17my opinion on Donovan in the past couple months or so because of the playoff series.
05:21Oh, you're pulling a main, huh?
05:21When I used to – basically, when I used to defend Donovan, the idea was is that you'd be Portland
05:27without him, you know?
05:28Like, you're basically nothing without Donovan Mitchell.
05:31And so, like, you have to respect – you're sorry.
05:33You're not the team you currently are.
05:35You know what?
05:36You're a play-in team.
05:37Because I think you're –
05:37Evan's a good player, but he's –
05:39That's fine.
05:39You're probably closer to basketball hell than anything, though.
05:42Like, you're probably on that fringe play-in team, but ultimately you're on a straight march to nothing, okay?
05:48Like, having Donovan does give you –
05:49You're Charlotte.
05:50Yeah, great, Charlotte.
05:52You're Orlando.
05:53Yeah, but again, team's stuck in basketball hell in many ways.
05:55And Orlando might even be too much of a compliment, all things considered.
05:58Well, to me, basketball hell is you're stuck in the lottery every year.
06:01You're in purgatory.
06:02You're not good enough to be –
06:03I think it's that in-between.
06:04I think that's like you're in that play-in year, some years, but you're right.
06:07You're right around there.
06:08Either way, the point is you're not a team that people are having on your TV screen being like,
06:12hey, championship bubble, these teams are in there.
06:15You're not one of them.
06:16And, like, Donovan puts you in that.
06:18Like, Donovan is really great.
06:22Again, top seven in MVP three out of the last four years.
06:25And so part of that I respect and I like, but here's the part I just can't – there's no
06:29great answer and I can't explain it.
06:31I don't know why certain people in this city we latch on to and certain people we don't.
06:39And I wish I had a great answer for it.
06:41I don't.
06:42I'll never understand 100% completely why so many people just never got along with Miles Garrett.
06:48You know?
06:49Like, and it's not that I got along great with Miles Garrett.
06:51That's not what I'm saying.
06:52As a collective as a whole, more people than not just – you didn't love Miles Garrett.
06:57You just didn't.
06:58I don't know.
06:59You just didn't.
06:59But Shane Bieber.
07:01Shane Bieber won a Cy Young.
07:02You won all sorts of games with Shane Bieber.
07:04When it came down to a race between Jose Ramirez and Shane Bieber, not even close.
07:08I can't explain why certain players we love and latch on to and certain players we just don't.
07:14Oh, Jose Ramirez took, like, a 60% pay cut to stay here.
07:18No, and I get it.
07:19You're never going to compete with Jose.
07:22But, like, certain players, it's just that's – like, they have that with us.
07:25Like, they should build a Jose statue now.
07:27Nick Chubb.
07:28Everyone loves Nick Chubb until the end of time.
07:30Like, and there's certain qualities that these people possess that give them this, right?
07:34Yeah.
07:34But then there's also this other group of people, the Miles Garrets, the Shane Biebers, where you're like, well, we
07:38like him.
07:40And they had every bit of the reason from a playing standpoint for why we should have loved them beyond
07:45love them.
07:45And we just kind of – it was what it was.
07:48And Donovan's falling into that second category.
07:50And I can't explain it.
07:52I wish I had an answer.
07:53I can't explain why that is.
07:55Yeah, I mean, I think the Miles thing was just because he wasn't fully bought in, per se.
08:03But you can't tell me it's all accomplishment-based.
08:06No, it's not.
08:07Because it isn't.
08:08It's more than just that.
08:09I think what he did at the Super Bowl really damaged his relationship.
08:13I just mean for how we all think about it.
08:14But this was before the Super Bowl.
08:15This was before that.
08:16You know that.
08:17He'd been here for nine years.
08:19And that entire time, people liked him.
08:22People never loved him, though.
08:24People never embraced Miles that same way.
08:26Oh, yeah.
08:26I mean, he's not Bernie Kosar.
08:28He's not Bernie Kosar.
08:29And I think that's the heart of this conversation is why are some people Bernie Kosar and why are some
08:33people Donovan Mitchell?
08:34Where Bernie is beloved beyond beloved.
08:37Your fans love Donovan.
08:39I mean, I don't know that they do.
08:41I think there are fans that love him the same way there are fans that love Shane Bieber, for instance.
08:46There are fans that love him.
08:48But I don't know that people – he's not beloved.
08:50Well, I think –
08:51Donovan's not beloved.
08:52I think –
08:53Beloved is nobody on this radio station saying anything bad about him the way we do Jose Ramirez.
08:58That's beloved.
08:59Okay, that's fair.
09:01Beloved is Nick Chubb.
09:02Give me the radio host that says anything bad about Nick Chubb.
09:04Nobody will say a thing wrong about Nick Chubb.
09:07There are plenty of radio hosts that are lining up to say bad things about Donovan Mitchell.
09:11Mac is at the forefront of the I don't like Donovan Mitchell campaign.
09:14I feel like at this point – I do think Donovan is beloved by fans.
09:19But I also think that you should be able to criticize certain players because of their play.
09:24And maybe that's the difference.
09:25There are people in this city that are above criticism.
09:28And there are people that aren't.
09:30Donovan clearly is not above criticism.
09:33The other people we have mentioned in this, J-Ram, above criticism.
09:37Nick Chubb was above criticism.
09:39Okay, let me ask you this.
09:39Let me pause – can I pause you for a second?
09:41It's not unfair.
09:42Why is it that he has not gotten to above criticism is the question we would ask you.
09:46What is there to criticize about Jose Ramirez?
09:50What is there to criticize about Nick Chubb?
09:52Well, if the argument for Donovan Mitchell is that he hasn't won a championship, I guess you could make the
09:56same argument for Jose Ramirez.
09:57Could you not?
09:58No.
09:59When Jose hit 230 for the previous two and a half months, nobody said a word.
10:07Why?
10:07He's above criticism.
10:08We shouldn't criticize him.
10:10We shouldn't.
10:11J-Ram's earned the benefit of the doubt.
10:12J-Ram has played in a World Series.
10:14J-Ram has done enough to earn this.
10:16And like with Nick Chubb, Nick Chubb won one playoff game.
10:20Nick Chubb wasn't above criticism necessarily from an on-play standpoint.
10:23But he was above criticism as far as sports radio is concerned.
10:26Not a person that said a bad word about Nick Chubb the entire time he was here.
10:29And nobody would say it even when he went to Houston.
10:31Okay, what should have been said about Nick Chubb?
10:33Why are certain players above criticism and some aren't?
10:37That's the heart of this question.
10:39Because there have been times where Donovan Mitchell has faded.
10:42That's why.
10:43Like, he is as great of a player as he is.
10:46There have been times where it hasn't felt like he has performed at his ultimate capability
10:53when it was needed most.
10:55And I'm with you.
10:56I'm with you.
10:56And we can make the same argument for Chubb.
10:58We can make the same thing for J-Ram in certain spots.
11:00But that's not really.
11:02I'm on your side at the heart of it.
11:04The heart of this discussion, I am saying, I'm agreeing with you.
11:07He deserves criticism.
11:08He should not be above criticism.
11:11The heart of this, though, and what I'm fascinated by is,
11:13why is it, even when there is room for criticism,
11:16and there was with Nick Chubb the last year he was here,
11:18and there was for Nick Chubb even in his time in Texas,
11:20and there was criticism there that I could have lobbed at Jose Ramirez if I wanted to as well.
11:24Ten years, never won a World Series, playoff bust in some capacities,
11:30and in the previous two and a half months of baseball before the injury,
11:33wasn't hitting anything.
11:34Some guys get it and some guys don't.
11:37Donovan, what I'm telling everyone, though,
11:38is Donovan has fallen in that line of players in this city that is not above it.
11:43And that is interesting to me.
11:44Yeah, like I said, I love Donovan Mitchell, but, like, he doesn't just solely carry the Cavs, okay?
11:53And, yeah, you can talk about that 39-point game all you want, or half or whatever.
11:58All I know is he had a great game five against the Pistons
12:03and was basically a no-show in game six because he was gassed from game five.
12:07There's not, I mean, he just, he runs out of gas at times.
12:14And I'm sorry, like, and I understand.
12:16He's a human being.
12:17There's only so much he can do.
12:18But, like, if you want to be in that untouchable area.
12:24Yeah, the above criticism area that J. Ram lives in, that Nick Chubb lived in,
12:27where it feels like you can go stretches and we won't doubt you, we won't question you.
12:30Can't run out of gas when things are on the line.
12:33All right, Mike and Stowe has a thought.
12:35And I wish I had this thought myself, but I want you to explain it.
12:38Go ahead.
12:39No worries.
12:40Good afternoon, guys.
12:42So, the difference for me, personally, is that with Myles Garrett, I could never be all in.
12:49And there were several reasons why.
12:51When it came to the offseason, you know, he took it for miles.
12:54It wasn't about the team.
12:55You know, it was never at voluntaries.
12:58The things that you need to do to build a better team, he wasn't really willing to do.
13:02He was willing to go out in the field and put everything out there.
13:04I loved him as a player.
13:06And then when it came to the offseason, he put us over the barrel how many times.
13:10I need to be the top paid.
13:11You know, I want to see what you're going to do with the roster.
13:13I need to see more of what you're going to do.
13:16Well, J-Ram never done that.
13:18He's always taken less, like Daryl said.
13:20He's taken six, maybe five cents or five dollars on the ten, right?
13:25Half the money he should take.
13:26But he's always rushed back from injury.
13:29He's always hit the workouts.
13:30He's never holding out the team and saying, hey, I'm going to wait to re-sign.
13:33I want to see what you're going to do with the pitching staff.
13:35You know, I need to see more.
13:37He's never done that, unselfishly.
13:39Now, Donovan is kind of on the edge now, guys.
13:42I really think, like, he could go the other way.
13:44It's as simple as this.
13:46He needs to work on his conditioning in the offseason.
13:49I don't know what it is about him getting gas.
13:51But any athlete can fix that.
13:53But there's no reason that he's tired like that.
13:56He needs to fix that.
13:58The second thing is take less.
14:01Take less money.
14:02Don't take the full.
14:03Leave a little on the table.
14:05Show that you're willing to do something for the team.
14:07You know, fall on the sword a little bit, and then you'll fall into that group, Donovan,
14:12that, you know, where J-Rams at.
14:15You know, you don't have to win at all like LeBron did to be there.
14:19But you just have to show that you're more about the team than you are yourself.
14:23In the very end.
14:24And I think that's the difference between those three players for me.
14:27Nick Chubb did the same thing.
14:28He was always at.
14:29Daryl was Nick Chubb always a volunteer.
14:30Nick Chubb's position helped that, too, though.
14:32You know what I mean, Mike?
14:33As a running back, naturally, he was always going to get paid less.
14:36But I understand what you're saying, and I want to elaborate on that.
14:38Thank you, Mike.
14:39I appreciate you.
14:39Basically, what he's preaching is the idea that with the instances of J-Ram and Chubb,
14:45it just felt like they were always selfless.
14:47And it felt like they always were putting the team first.
14:49Now, I would make an argument back on this, Daryl.
14:51I haven't seen Donovan be truly selfish yet.
14:56There's CBA reasons attached to why he's not going to be able to take a $30 million pay cut
15:01and play for $30 million next year.
15:03That doesn't exist.
15:05The new CBA doesn't allow that.
15:07That's not a thing for him, okay?
15:09But he's also going to maximize.
15:12And I get it.
15:12So is that what this is?
15:13Is the new contract what's going to piss people off?
15:15If they look up and say you're making $71 million, $72 million a year.
15:19You damn well better be Superman.
15:21I'm sorry.
15:22You're making that kind of money?
15:24And again, I am pro because of sports entertainment.
15:30What's interesting about that is Evan Mobley makes max money,
15:32and nobody ever holds that against him.
15:34Evan Mobley makes the max.
15:36Evan Mobley's got the same contract as far as millions per year right now for this last year
15:41and for this upcoming year as Donovan Mitchell does.
15:44And nobody ever brings that to his table.
15:46I wish we did.
15:48I bring it up, but nobody else does.
15:50And it's interesting.
15:51It can't just be taking a discount.
15:54It's got to be more to the idea that you just, at the heart of it,
15:58Cavs fans, there's something about Cavs fans right now.
16:00Not all of them, obviously.
16:01There's some people that love Donovan and will always love Donovan.
16:04There's enough Cavs fans out there,
16:06and you tell me if you fall into this bucket or not,
16:08that just don't buy the act.
16:10You don't buy the bit.
16:11You don't buy that Donovan is truly putting the team first and foremost at all costs.
16:16Because if cracking this case to getting Cleveland fans to love you comes down to the idea
16:20they have to actually believe that you want more for the team than yourself,
16:24where has Donovan fallen short there?
16:27Yeah, I don't believe, I know where you're going with the act.
16:32I don't believe that Donovan has put on an act, okay?
16:35I want to be very, very clear about that.
16:36I do believe he's been sincere and that.
16:41But, again, you're getting into pay scales that just are unheard of.
16:46And I guess that's where my trepidation comes in,
16:50is that $70 million a year is a lot of money,
16:53and you better be an NBA MVP player for that.
16:58Now, he's the MVP of the Cavaliers, no question about it.
17:03Not disputing that.
17:04But, like, is he an NBA MVP?
17:08No.
17:09Is he Wemby?
17:10No.
17:11Is he LeBron?
17:14No.
17:14Do I expect him to be?
17:15No.
17:15But I'm just saying, like, to me, I feel like that that supermax money,
17:19which obviously comes with 10 years of experience and all that, right?
17:22I just feel like supermax money should be for, like, the unicorns.
17:28And that's just me.
17:29Yeah, but we're having this discussion before he's gotten that supermax money.
17:32But he's going to get it.
17:33I know, but it's not as if, like, the realization that he was going to get it
17:36is what's turned people on Donovan.
17:38And they were doing this before that.
17:40Yeah.
17:41Well, and again, I think it's...
17:42I can't hide from the money component.
17:44I think it's a decent point.
17:45Like, there's something about this city that we do.
17:48Clearly we did, because it's one of the more beloved things about J-Ram,
17:51as we bring up, is the idea that he took pennies on the dollar,
17:54all things considered.
17:54You know who should make $70 million a year in this city?
17:56It's Jose Ramirez.
17:58I know.
17:58And it's, like, one of the greatest things he can do for himself,
18:02as far as he will be beloved forever, is 25 years from now,
18:06when me and you are talking about J-Ram's legacy together,
18:09we'll be bringing up...
18:10I mean, nobody ever took a pay cut the way he did.
18:12Lindor went to New York and took every last dollar he possibly could.
18:15J-Ram didn't do that.
18:16And look how it turned out for both of them.
18:18One guy's going into the Hall of Fame,
18:19and the other guy struggled, limped to the finish of his career.
18:21We do love that.
18:22I would also add on to that, too, that at least for J-Ram,
18:26it's, you know, helping to try to build the roster construction,
18:28everything like that.
18:29In the NBA now, especially with the way that the aprons work,
18:32taking a discount is even more of a...
18:35is even more beloved, or should be more beloved, in my opinion,
18:38because it helps out the way that you're able to pay the rest of your roster.
18:42And, again, if Donovan is,
18:44hey, you know what, I'm going to wait for another year
18:45so I can get that extra $10 million per season.
18:48Meanwhile, and again, not to, you know, completely compare the two,
18:50but Jalen Brunson next year is making $37 million.
18:56Like, to me, I think it just shows, you know,
18:59who's trying to make sure that you have the better roster construction
19:02and who's trying to build the better team to win a championship.
19:04I know, and listen, we did this a couple weeks ago,
19:07and I got a long text from Lima explaining all the reasons why.
19:11He can't actually take the discount that everyone wants him to,
19:14this Jalen Brunson discount.
19:15So I won't hold that against him, but I do think there are enough people,
19:19even though it's unfair as that part is,
19:21I think there aren't enough people that do.
19:22Well, how you do the discount is you do the extension this offseason.
19:25That's how you do the discount.
19:26And that, yes, that could be one way, yes.
19:29Yeah, I mean, that's how you legally do it in the terms of the CBA,
19:32but he's not going to do it.
19:33He's going to wait so he can maximize to get to the 70.
19:37And that's going to jam up the Cavaliers.
19:39He can still take 50.
19:40Has he not done enough recruiting for people?
19:42Because one of the themes we've done in this talking is the idea that he –
19:46LeBron did recruit at least the second time around.
19:48It's putting the team first more than yourself, right?
19:50And even though this could be good for him and also good for the team,
19:53everything that Donovan has done as far as having people here
19:57has been because Kobe Altman has decided they'll be here.
20:00It hasn't been because Donovan was out there,
20:02hey, I need you on this team.
20:04Yeah, but there's some people that aren't here because Donovan was like,
20:07yeah, we're good.
20:08That happens too.
20:09And maybe that's playing against him as well.
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