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00:00Long time NBA writer. He's worked in some great cities. He's now with the Boston Globe, covers the Celtics and
00:07the entire NBA as the national NBA writer for the Globe. Good to have Gary Washburn back with us. Gary,
00:13thank you very much.
00:13Hey, Gary. Hey, how's it going, guys? We're better than Celtic fans, apparently, right now, Gary. I was stunned when
00:22I saw this trade. Mike Gansey leaves the Cavs as GM, goes to Philadelphia, and it looks like pulls off
00:29a great trade for the 76ers. How's this trade playing in Boston?
00:34Not very well. Not very well at all. It's kind of split in terms of there are those here that
00:42did not want to trade Jalen Brown at all, that loved Jalen Brown. He was very popular in the community.
00:47He started a STEM program here. He had out free shoes and went to local YMCA's and things like that
00:56and signed autographs. He was kind of a man of the people out here.
00:59And then there are those who said, OK, trade him, but let's get a good return. And so those two
01:07people that don't trade Jalen and trade Jalen and get a good return folks have now collaborated and partnered up
01:15and are just outraged about this deal.
01:19Because even if you're going to trade Jalen Brown, and I think it was obviously when they offered for us
01:25out of the cupo, the possibility was high that they were going to trade him, to get this little in
01:31return and send him to a division rival, a rival that has been going, Boston and Philly have been going
01:38against each other since Chamberlain and Russell,
01:40and you send him to your rival, a team that just knocks you out of the playoffs. Now increasing their
01:48championship chances for Celtic fans, they're in disbelief. They're just, they're completely offended, angry, all of the above.
01:57Is that a double shot too, because they didn't get Giannis? I mean, that's double disappointment for a great fan
02:03base.
02:04Yeah, I think the whole premise is, well, if you're going to trade him for Giannis, get the deal done.
02:10Don't fall short. You know, you didn't want to include Ugo Gonzalez and Baylor Charmin, two nice players. But to
02:17make these kind of deals, as you guys know, you've got to get uncomfortable. You've got to give up more
02:23than you want it. You're not going to win every deal. Sometimes you're going to lose maybe 40, 60, right?
02:28But you're going to, you get the guy that you want.
02:30And so, I mean, I mean, look at, I mean, with the Browns, hey, you trade Miles Garrett, but you
02:37get Jared Verse back. So you get a guy who's going to be an all pro. You get someone who's
02:42not as good as Miles Garrett, but who's dedicated to the team and is a great prospect. So it makes
02:51it a little easier. This is just completely not, no, no buffer here. I mean, it's just like pulling the
02:59scab off.
03:00The blood's going down. Like, it's like, wait a minute, what did we do here? You've got an aging Paul
03:06George, a guy who had a 25-game PED suspension last year, who's on a really bad contract, one of
03:14the worst in the league, and you take him back in a couple of draft picks.
03:17You don't even get a prospect. So that was the thing. If you included V.J. Edgecombe, if you included
03:23their first-round pick they took last week, at least you have a reason for optimism.
03:27But on this one, you're just getting back a guy who's six years older than Jalen on a just as
03:33bad of a contract, who has an injury history.
03:36So, yeah, the Celtic fans who know basketball can read the TV's and understand that this was a bad trade.
03:44Gary Washburn joining us, Boston Globe. So why make the trade? What was it about Jalen Brown and the Celtics
03:51that apparently the Celtics organization felt,
03:54we've got to move on from this guy, which makes no sense to me.
03:57That's the $40 million question. Like, we don't know. Like, obviously, the live streaming probably, the organization was probably a
04:06big fan of that,
04:07but Jalen's always been a vocal guy. He never ripped the organization. He didn't go off on anybody in particular.
04:15He didn't demand a trade. I've been told he did not go into the office and put his fist down
04:21and say,
04:21hey, you guys want me out. You know, you put me in the honest deal. Well, just get me out.
04:25Now, I'm not coming back.
04:27I think he would have been able to work through his issues. And if you want to trade him next
04:31summer, you run it back.
04:33You just got Mitchell Robinson and Mike Conley. Run it back. See what happens.
04:38And if you want to do it again, try it in 27 and get a bigger return, because now he's
04:42got less years in his deal.
04:44It's a more tradable contract. But in this situation, no one can figure out why they were intent on trading
04:51him.
04:52I mean, it was from the beginning, from the moment the season ended, they decided they were getting this guy
04:57out.
04:58You can go into the analytical aspect of it. As some analytical folks are saying, well, he wasn't as good
05:03on the floor.
05:03You could say all that, but somehow, someway, they won 56 games last year, mostly without Jason Tatum and without
05:11guys like Derek Wyatt and Peyton Pritchard having careers.
05:14They were okay last year at best. It was a Jalen Brown-led year, and they kicked him out of
05:22the door and threw him out of the curb like an old couch.
05:28And nobody ever picks those up on the side of the road. I don't know what they were thinking.
05:31In Columbus, they set him on fire.
05:34There you go. Gary, does Brad Stevens have another move lined up, you think, with that first-round draft capital
05:40that he picked up?
05:42People are saying that, oh, this is going to lead to something else. Trust Brad.
05:45I think the trust for Brad Stevens has begun to decline here.
05:50First, he's 100%. He's going to make it all work. He's a masterful general manager.
05:56And then, last summer, they had to trade all these guys to get under the second apron because of new
06:01ownership.
06:02And the new owners say, hey, you know, I'm sure it's happened like that in Cleveland.
06:06Hey, I want to win. I don't want to cut costs. What are you, crazy?
06:10This is the Celtics. I'm here to win more championships, whatever it takes.
06:15But, hey, I wouldn't mind if we didn't have to pay a luxury tax.
06:18I wouldn't mind if this guy was off the payroll.
06:20So that happened. Then they traded at the deadline Nikola Vucevic for Anthony Simons because they thought they needed a
06:28center.
06:28And Vucevic was an absolute bust in Boston. It just didn't work out.
06:32He was terrible. He didn't play in that Game 7 against Philly.
06:35So that was kind of a bust of a trade, but it got him under the second apron.
06:39So now people are thinking, well, are these moves financially motivated?
06:44Do you not want the final year of the Jalen Brown deal?
06:46Did you not want to extend him? Did you not want two max guys on your roster?
06:51Like, what's going on with the ownership in terms of are you being mandated to make those deals in a
06:57clear space?
06:58Because there is no defense for this deal.
07:01If it's not a good deal, you just hold on to him.
07:05He's still an asset. He's still a commodity.
07:07And as I said before, they treated him like an old cat.
07:10They treated him like a piece. They treated him like a recycling item.
07:14Like, they just threw him into the recycler and said, whoever wants to pick him up, please go ahead and,
07:19you know, make a lamp out of him or something.
07:24Make a lamp out of him.
07:25I got burning couches over here.
07:28That's fabulous.
07:31All right.
07:32So let me, I'm looking at the entire East, right?
07:34Like Miami.
07:37I think the Toronto move is gigantic and maybe a little bit underrated with everything that's going on.
07:42How much better is the East and how much tougher is the East today than it was, I don't know,
07:48I'll say before the draft?
07:49Yeah, much tougher.
07:51I mean, the Knicks are going to be back, right?
07:53Right.
07:53Now, and then who knows what the Cavs are going to do.
07:57We'll see what they do with James Harden.
07:59Let's see if LeBron comes back.
08:00And that's changing the entire, you know, complexion of it if LeBron returns for a third time.
08:06Then you got Detroit.
08:07Detroit's making moves.
08:09You've got Dow, Philadelphia.
08:11You've got the Raptors.
08:13Miami.
08:14Miami, exactly.
08:16Then you got the sleeper teams.
08:17You got the Charlottes.
08:18You got Atlanta.
08:19You got teams that, you know, with the new tanking rules, like all these, even the bad teams, the Brooklyns,
08:26the Washingtons, they're going to try to win.
08:28There's no incentive to lose like there was before.
08:30So even the bad teams are going to try to win.
08:33Then you got the sleeper team like an Indiana, right?
08:36Halliburton's back.
08:37You got Zubach.
08:39You know, they just signed, you know, the kid from Philadelphia.
08:43So there's a lot, a lot of moving pieces in the East.
08:48Kelly Ray.
08:48They signed, like, there's a lot of moving pieces in the East.
08:51And the Celtics just dipped to maybe the middle of the pack.
08:55Hey, sixth seed.
08:56They said that last year they ended up being the second seed.
08:58So I wouldn't put it past this team to play well.
09:01But now it's a lot of pressure on Jason Tatum a year after Achilles tear.
09:05He becomes the number one option without question.
09:08And it's a lot of pressure on a guy who literally came back and played 20 games and then, you
09:14know, messed up, you know, got injured and had to sit out game seven.
09:17Like, I don't know where the direction of the franchise is going.
09:21And since I've been covering this team for the years now, there's only been one year when they traded Garnett
09:27and Pierce.
09:28This team said, hey, we're taking a step back.
09:30We're going to go to the lottery.
09:31We're going to just do a reboot.
09:33And then it ended up that was a one-year thing.
09:35And then they ended up building back up.
09:36But since then, this team has tried to win mostly every year.
09:40And I can't say that now.
09:42I don't know what they're trying to do.
09:44Gary Washburn joining us from the Boston Globe.
09:47He's the national NBA writer and has covered the NBA for a very long time and done a great job
09:51of it.
09:52Here in Cleveland, not much has happened yet.
09:55You've lost two 3-and-D wing guys when you've been looking for 3-and-D wing guys.
10:00So Dean Wade's out.
10:01He's in Philly with Jalen Brown now.
10:04And Keon Ellis is with the Nets.
10:06But there's a 3-and-D guy, a lot more than that, who maybe comes home.
10:11Does LeBron James come to Cleveland?
10:13Does he go to Miami?
10:16Does he reunite with the buddies at Golden State?
10:20Where do you see this thing playing out, Gary?
10:22Yeah, I don't think Cleveland's the favorite here.
10:24It's not anything to do with Cleveland.
10:26But, like, I don't know how the dynamic with Harden works.
10:30Like, I don't know how that goes.
10:32Like, does Cleveland, even with LeBron, have enough?
10:35And then you said they've lost Ellis.
10:36They've lost Wade.
10:39Obviously, I think you throw Jalen Tyson into more minutes and get him a starting role.
10:44You know, how strongly do they feel about Mobley now after he had that rough series against, you know, Detroit?
10:51Like, you know, and then Jared Allen has always seemed like he's going to be around.
10:56He seems like he's kind of the Kramer of the Cavaliers, where he just isn't going anywhere in terms of,
11:02you know.
11:04But, you know, to me, I don't – it's hard to say the Cavs have gotten any better.
11:11They have it.
11:12And you got James Harden's contract holding over you.
11:15Hey, I'll opt out.
11:17But, hey, it's going to be – benefit me.
11:19Hey, you know, I'm going to do what's best for the team.
11:21But, you know, somehow I'm going to get more money out of this.
11:24So, good luck with that.
11:26And it didn't work out in the playoffs last year.
11:29Nobody's surprised with Harden.
11:30So, I'd say the Cavs took a step back, especially with the rest of the East.
11:35Most of the rest of the East taking a step forward.
11:37If you're the Cavs, are you excited about the idea of giving Donovan Mitchell $60 million to $70 million a
11:45year in an extension?
11:47You know, what discouraged me about Donovan Mitchell was he didn't seem all that broken up about losing the Knicks
11:53series.
11:54Like, he just said, you know what, they were the best.
11:57Like, I just – I think he's a great player, but I don't know how badly he wants to be
12:04a champion.
12:05And it just seemed like he took the Knicks series way too easily in stride.
12:10Now, he could have said after game one, you know what, we blew that 22-point lead.
12:15There's no way we're going to beat this team four more times.
12:18We're done.
12:19We're just not good enough.
12:20I'm okay with that.
12:21Let's just improve on the offseason.
12:23That could have been his mentality.
12:24But it just seemed like they were just resigned, especially Donovan being your leader, to losing that series and not
12:32really trying in the second half of those games.
12:35Just kind of throwing in the towel.
12:36Those two games in Cleveland were just bad looks for the franchise, and that's your leader.
12:42And he's got to take responsibility.
12:43Just like Tatum's got to take responsibility for what happens in Boston and those losses and wear him.
12:49And the same was with Jalen Brown when he was here.
12:53Mitchell's got to wear that loss to the Knicks.
12:55He's got to take that personal.
12:57And I don't know how much he does.
12:58I don't know if you make him a, you know, that, you know, give him that Devin Booker deal where
13:03he's going to make $70 million the last year and be that guy and have his number 45 retired.
13:10I don't know.
13:11I mean, because I just wasn't impressed with his mentality and approach in that Knicks series.
13:17The Cavs gave up so much to get him, Gary.
13:20I just wonder, do you want a 33-, 34-year-old guard who those, and I agree with you, I
13:28think he's tremendous, but making 70 mil.
13:31If he holds off on an extension this year and waits for next year, is that what you want to
13:37build your franchise around?
13:39I don't know the answer to that, and I think that's a huge decision for the organization.
13:44Yeah, I think a lot of teams, and I think the Celtics are leading the way.
13:49I mean, they just made a decision about that, right?
13:51Because these guys who are now in their late 20s, with the salaries raised in the NBA, are signing these
13:58contracts that are paying them in the $70 million range in the final years of their deal.
14:03And eventually, and it might not be too much longer, it might be Victor and Mignola, we're going to eventually
14:08see a $100 million a year player.
14:11But it's growing to that $70 million plateau, and teams are having to decide, hey, this guy has done great
14:18for us.
14:18He's made all-star teams, he's represented it well, but when he hits 35, do we want to be paying
14:23him $73 million a year?
14:26And what's his value been?
14:28If you're asking about LeBron, the answer is yes.
14:31If you're answering about Steph Curry, the answer is yes, because those guys played even maybe a Kevin Durant.
14:37They at 35 were playing an extremely high level, but that's not everybody in this league.
14:43Some guys start breaking down in their early 30s, and you don't want to have that salary on your books,
14:48and then you're trying to pay young guys.
14:50Some of the young guys you draft are looking up and going, okay, where's my money?
14:56I'm ready for an extension, and you're still paying Mitchell, who's in decline.
15:01Just curious, because we talked about this on our show the other day.
15:04Okay, LeBron's legacy, if he comes back to Cleveland and they don't win a championship, does it change?
15:11Because I think the reference point that we use on a lot of this stuff is Jordan and finishing his
15:16career in Washington.
15:17But I don't see that the same in Cleveland.
15:20Just your thoughts on LeBron as he takes what looks like the final run.
15:25I think his legacy is already set.
15:28I don't think he can tarnish it unless there was a situation where he, let's say, physically just lost it
15:38suddenly,
15:39and now he's looking like Willie Mays with the man.
15:44You know what I'm saying?
15:45Where guys are driving past him, and he's just hanging on.
15:49And I didn't see that last year in L.A.
15:51I think you've got to preserve him, you've got to limit him to 60-65 games,
15:56you've got to give him his breaks, you've got to cut his minutes a little bit,
15:59but I still think he's a productive player.
16:01I think the only way he tarnishes it is if he just looks like he's done.
16:06And he plays, and even Jordan and those Wizards didn't look done.
16:10He didn't look the same.
16:11It looked weird to have him in a Wizards uniform.
16:14It just was awkward all the way around.
16:17With LeBron, I don't think he can tarnish it.
16:20I think he can enhance it if he puts a team on his shoulders
16:24and is the number two option or even the number one option at times
16:27and leads a team to another championship and goes out in a blaze of glory.
16:31I think that could make him comparable to Jordan, who is the greatest of all time.
16:36But to me, I think at this point it's already set,
16:41and I think playing one more year wouldn't hurt.
16:43I think there's a level of fascination in seeing him in a new uniform,
16:48and maybe it's a Cleveland uniform.
16:51Gary, most important question, the last question,
16:54have they replaced the beer yet after the Scottish soccer fans drank you guys dry?
16:59Yeah, they're just starting to replenish that.
17:02But believe me, the bars in Boston were extremely happy about this World Cup.
17:07You know, they're, hey, when's that World Cup coming back?
17:10You know, let's get it back here and, you know, won't we have it every year?
17:15So, yeah, there was definitely an excitement for the World Cup in Boston.
17:19I don't think a lot of people really knew what to expect about that,
17:23and it ended up being extremely popular here.
17:27It is so weird, though, when they call Foxborough Boston Stadium
17:29because of the generic names.
17:31I'm just like, it just, but I can't, but like,
17:35the reports, or are they just great reports that, you know,
17:38they drank three times the alcohol that would happen on a regular St. Patrick's Day in Boston?
17:42I can't believe that.
17:43I just can't believe that.
17:47I somehow do.
17:48Okay.
17:49You know, and it went well.
17:52And as I said, I think Boston's looking to apply for another World Cup
17:57whenever the next one's available.
17:58That's awesome.
17:59Hey, Gary, thank you.
18:00Thanks, man.
18:01We know you've had a lot going on.
18:02We thank you for your time today and great perspective
18:06on the biggest trade in the offseason so far.
18:08Thanks, buddy.
18:08All right.
18:09Thanks a lot, guys.
18:10We appreciate it.
18:10Gary Washburn joining us from the Boston Globe.
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