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00:00I would play the web again, but I feel like, does it all, over the radio, does it just sound
00:06like mumbling?
00:08Especially with, like, apparently construction work happening behind his head.
00:13You can make it out.
00:13Can you hear it?
00:14Yeah.
00:14Let's play this again, and then we haven't played the show on Estes yet either.
00:18And I think that this is all very, very important for Giants fans.
00:22888-957-9570.
00:24I thought last night was Tony Vitello's worst night.
00:28I think there's just a total building block sort of a scenario that played out of one thing after another.
00:37But for me, this starts with taking Logan Webb out of a game where he's at 99 pitches.
00:43He's been dominant for the better part of a week, a week plus.
00:47And I just, I don't feel like we're hearing the Logan Webb that we've come to know.
00:53When the question in that situation, a team that's struggling mightily, he's at 99 pitches, dealing, and they're up 3
01:01-1.
01:03And we're just going to believe that Logan is that beta?
01:07That's what we're really talking about.
01:09I grew up down the street from a grocery store at the time that was called Alpha Beta.
01:12Oh, yeah, we had one in the NFL.
01:14Let's play Alpha Beta.
01:16Is Logan Webb an Alpha or a Beta?
01:19The Logan Webb I know is Alpha.
01:21But this sounds beta to me.
01:23Logan, Tony said there was a conversation in the dugout about you maybe getting the ninth.
01:27Were you part of that?
01:28I walked in, and I didn't know how many pitches I was at.
01:32And then a mess shook my hand, so I thought I was done.
01:36And then Tony kind of asked if you're good.
01:41And I said, it's up to you.
01:42It's your decision.
01:43And then he came back to me after a lot of sales.
01:48They made the, after the challenge, we got the first.
01:51And he was like, can we just make a change?
01:53And I was like, okay.
01:56Now that I picked you up, did you feel like you could go out there for another reason?
01:59Yeah, I feel like I can throw as many as I want to throw.
02:02I felt good.
02:05I don't regret that decision at all.
02:08I was excited to watch Keaton throw.
02:10We scored two there.
02:12It's just unfortunate that the way that didn't unfolded.
02:16Coming off the break, are you fully built up, you think, back to normal?
02:21Yeah, I think so.
02:22I mean, I think that might be a little bit part of it, too.
02:25You know, I did miss, what else, a full month.
02:29And I threw two bullpens and knocked down and then threw in a game and then it's kind of been
02:36a, it was a build up the first one and then it's kind of been back to normal the last
02:40two.
02:41So I think that probably has something to do with the decision as well.
02:47By the way, that whole part at the end about how like, oh yeah, I think me coming back from
02:53the injured list three starts ago might have a little something to do with it.
02:58It better be all of it or else there's no freaking reason to take you out.
03:02And I say this with the most, utmost respect and fandom for Logan Webb.
03:09I don't buy what you're saying.
03:12At all.
03:13That's not you.
03:15We know this isn't you.
03:17We've listened to you for five years.
03:19We know who you are.
03:21There's no way in hell that you came out of a three to one ball game at 99 pitches, dealing
03:27for the second time in a row and walked into the dugout and shrugged your shoulders at everyone and went,
03:32I'll go in if you want me to.
03:34Right.
03:34Like that's just not Logan Webb.
03:36When he didn't know how many pitches he had.
03:38And I take him at his word with that, because if you're a pitcher, you're probably not totally locked in
03:43on the pitch count.
03:44And by the time he gets off the mound and in the dugout, he's getting his hand shaken by the
03:49pitching coach, which is basically symbolic of it's over.
03:53Good game.
03:53Good game, kid.
03:54You're coming out.
03:55And you didn't even have a conversation where you're the veteran.
03:59You're the ace.
04:00You've been here a lot longer than the two of them, the manager and the pitching coach.
04:04So the right thing to do would be to huddle up and say, hey, how you feeling?
04:08You're at 99.
04:09What do you think about the ninth?
04:10And, you know, whatever you think, we'll go with it, Logan, because you're our guy.
04:14Well, the whole thing doesn't even make sense.
04:16Why?
04:17If Tony's going to go over to Logan and say, how are you doing?
04:21That would suggest I'm asking you because I kind of want to keep you in, but I need to make
04:27sure you're okay.
04:28So how are you doing?
04:29And then the pitcher goes, I'm good.
04:32Okay, fine.
04:33Then we're taking you out anyway.
04:34Why'd you even ask that?
04:35Exactly.
04:36Why'd you even ask?
04:38Already the pitching coach must have had a conversation with Tony before and said, yeah, you know, he's going to
04:43be close to 100 if he gets out of this.
04:45What do you think?
04:45We should probably go to the pen.
04:47All right.
04:47Then you're the pitching coach and you're thinking, I'm going to get my handshake ready because he pitched his ass
04:52off.
04:52And I want to be the first guy to say, attaboy, good game.
04:56And that's going to do it for you after eight innings.
04:58And then there's a couple of responses to our question who, I mean, I'll just say it out front.
05:03You all see Logan Webb differently than I do.
05:07650, saying it's up to you, it's your decision is very beta.
05:12No manager in the league wouldn't pull the starter immediately if he didn't show the fire to want to finish.
05:18My response to that is, as I've been saying, I don't believe Logan Webb.
05:23I don't think that's what he said to Tony Vitello.
05:25I think that's what he's saying in the postgame interview in order to protect Tony Vitello.
05:31That's my guess.
05:32650, then also says, different 650, I love Webb, but he's always been beta, nervous and awkward, and interviews his
05:39whole career.
05:40Really?
05:41I've never thought, have you ever thought that way about Logan Webb?
05:44Not nervous and awkward.
05:45Awkward and nervous?
05:45And just because you're not, you know, somebody out there screaming and yelling and hollering doesn't mean that you can't
05:50be an alpha.
05:51You can be somebody who's just quiet and goes about their business and is very competitive, which is what he
05:56is.
05:57I think that Buster and the Brandons have transitioned the leadership role on this baseball team to Logan Webb over
06:05the last three to four years.
06:07That's what they did.
06:08Like, Logan's the guy.
06:09That's the guy.
06:10That's your leader.
06:12Right.
06:12And I know that Adamus pours the Gatorade and everything, but Adamus and Chapman are longtime baseball guys,
06:19and I think that they're leaders and they handle the vibe, and sometimes it can be good cop, bad cop,
06:24or whatever.
06:25I'm not saying they're not leaders, but the San Francisco giant homegrown leader is Logan Webb.
06:33And the guy that I've listened to for years doesn't do that.
06:37I don't know, Skip.
06:38You know, whatever.
06:39Right.
06:40Whatever.
06:40Whatever you think.
06:41Yeah, he answered it like a teenager when you ask them what they want for dinner.
06:44I don't know.
06:46Like, that's just not Logan Webb.
06:48I don't.
06:49I'm not.
06:49So that's.
06:50I want to say it in a way where it doesn't sound like I'm calling the guy a liar.
06:53I think he's protecting the team.
06:55I think he's protecting his manager.
06:57But I don't buy that that's the way it went down.
07:00I don't either.
07:01When you look at that eighth inning, he gets a first pitch fly out off of Ruiz's bat, a six
07:08pitch battle, and Vivas flies out to Jung-Hoo Lee.
07:11And then it's a one, two, three.
07:14Yeah.
07:14Good morning, good afternoon, and sit your butt down.
07:17Grab some pine meat.
07:18Ten pitches, three outs, cruising, and you're going to come out of the game and be like, yeah, whatever.
07:25Whatever you think, Skip.
07:26You just had a dominant inning in the eighth.
07:28Of course you back him up by having somebody ready in the pen.
07:32But yeah.
07:34Yeah.
07:34You let him start the inning at least.
07:37Let's see how it goes.
07:39Maybe he goes out there and in two pitches, there's one out.
07:42You know?
07:42Like, let's see how it goes.
07:44If he gives up a rocket off of the wall, then you go to the pen.
07:47That's the way you usually handle stuff like that.
07:50You don't let him go out there and throw another 25 pitches.
07:53But see if he can get out of that thing in seven to 12 pitches, and we're good.
07:58Right.
07:59Off we go.
07:59Into the night.
08:00No doubt.
08:00And you're at 99, and you're right.
08:02You're not going to let him throw another 25, which would put you at 124 in your third start back.
08:07You just don't do that to guys.
08:09But hey, go out there and see if you can, I don't know, do what you're maybe best in baseball
08:14at, which is coax a ground ball.
08:16Coax a couple of ground balls and throw 108 pitches, and we can all go home with a victory.
08:20He was averaging 12.3 pitches per inning for the whole night.
08:23And coming off a 10 is the thing.
08:25He's not coming off a very long, taxing inning.
08:28Yeah.
08:28Like, I think that you give Logan another 12 to 15 pitches, and you probably don't even need to do
08:36that, because if you get into trouble, he's gone.
08:38He's gone.
08:39But, like, go see if you can cruise again.
08:45You've been doing it all night.
08:46That's right.
08:47Go out there and get a complete game, of which he only has three in his career.
08:50I was stunned to see that.
08:52But, I mean, pitchers don't really do that that often anymore.
08:56The other piece of it, too, for me is Keaton Wynn, for a third consecutive day, you're going to throw
09:02him out there where you had Carson Seymour.
09:04I know he's more of a long guy.
09:06You had Dylan Smith, who you eventually needed.
09:08You had Sam Hentges, who's quietly had a pretty good start to his season.
09:13Those guys were all fresh.
09:14And I know you threw almost everybody else the day before, even Brubaker threw.
09:19And, of course, Keaton Wynn threw.
09:21You've had all these guys who had to go.
09:23And then there's a long flight.
09:25Long flight, and the guy's pitching a third straight day, and he's the guy you go to?
09:28That doesn't seem like the right choice.
09:30That's where I do.
09:31There's a tiny piece of me that's like we all know Tony doesn't have great choices.
09:35But that's even furthermore why I would have at least started the inning with Logan.
09:41Start it.
09:43Hell, give him six or seven pitches and see where that goes.
09:47Is there one out?
09:48Is there two outs?
09:48Is there nobody out?
09:50No big deal?
09:51Now we go to the pen.
09:55But, yeah, and then you probably do pick someone other than Wynn, I would think.
10:01But there aren't great options.
10:03Well, it's not like Wynn has absolutely commanded the role.
10:07Nobody's commanded the closer role.
10:09You have no closer.
10:10So, I don't know, throw a guy who's done well and somebody who might be fresher than a pitcher coming
10:15off back-to-back outings.
10:17Ed in Petaluma.
10:18Hi, Ed.
10:19Thank you for calling Wither and Debs.
10:20What's going on?
10:23Gentlemen, gentlemen, first of all, thank you for the call.
10:26Listen, this is my take.
10:28This is all on ownership.
10:30You have a multi-billion dollar franchise and you gave the guy running it has no experience.
10:36And the first thing he did was hire a guy with no major league experience.
10:41And what did you see?
10:43He's got no bullpen.
10:45That's all on Posey.
10:46Not on Posey.
10:47That's on ownership.
10:48I'm sorry.
10:48But they did this.
10:51So, what did you expect when you hired two guys with no experience?
10:55What did you think was going to happen?
10:57Nothing good.
10:59So, Ed, you know what's fascinating about that?
11:01And I think that you've got a point there.
11:03But at the same time, it only, for me, it leads to even more questions.
11:08Okay.
11:09Let's unpack that for a second.
11:11Your ownership, you hire Buster Posey.
11:13He's got, quote, unquote, no experience.
11:15In the front office, right?
11:16Right.
11:17So, he has no experience being the president of baseball operations.
11:20And I do think that leaves him vulnerable when it comes to trades or roster building or whatever.
11:25But it's not like Buster was completely unaware of the idea that you need a good bullpen.
11:29That's Buster flipping Posey.
11:32That is a legend.
11:34That is a Hall of Fame catcher.
11:36That is a three-time world champion.
11:38And one of the main reasons he's a three-time world champion is because they had a great bullpen.
11:43That was not news to Buster.
11:46And that's why I scratched my head.
11:49Because it's not like he didn't know.
11:51He either, one of two things is happening there.
11:54He either thought that he had more down there than he did.
11:59Or there's more going on here than meets the eye.
12:03For example, he had walking orders that you're not signing anybody long-term or any big dollars
12:11because the CBA is up at the end of the year.
12:13So, let's ham and egg it until then.
12:15That's possible, yeah.
12:16Like, those are my, I don't have, I have no idea.
12:19But those are my first two thoughts.
12:20Yeah, and the other thought I have is maybe you have misidentified the amount of talent in your organization.
12:26Right.
12:27It's kind of what you said with your first point.
12:28But then you look at, you know, Frisbee guy who's been great and you go ahead and trade him last
12:33year, Tyler Rodgers.
12:34And Ryan Walker was going to be the closer, although you never announced him this year.
12:38And he hasn't been it.
12:40And all the rest of the guys you've had, Bo Rucky and Brew Baker and, you know, Wynn and Killian
12:46and all the rest of these guys.
12:47They're just, they're just pitchers.
12:49You don't have anybody with electric stuff.
12:52The only guy with electric stuff is Pagaro.
12:54And he is so green and now he's gone for, like, what, the rest of the year?
12:59I mean, let's add to it, too.
13:00And I have no idea what they're even thinking on this.
13:04But if on some level, this would be wild to me because he's so hurt and it's a reconstruction.
13:10But if they're thinking to themselves, no, over the next four years, like, Randy Rodriguez is our closer.
13:16So we're not going to go high-priced to block him.
13:21I don't think that that would be the greatest of ideas.
13:23I don't know where Randy's going to be at starting next year.
13:27But same thing comes into play.
13:30If they're just looking at this going, man, CBA is up.
13:33Don't want to lock in a whole lot of money and have no idea if we're going to get anything
13:37out of that.
13:38Plus, after one more year, Randy Rodriguez is going to be back.
13:42And we kind of want him to be our closer.
13:44So when it comes to the bullpen, we got Ryan Walker by, you know, I bet, I bet, Bob, that
13:52he could at least get us to June.
13:54And then in June, Jason Foley is going to come off of the injured list and he'll be ready to
13:59go.
14:00And he's closed before.
14:01Or, well, he just had a little bit of a setback in his rehab.
14:04Ryan Walker didn't do it.
14:06And then you're thinking, okay, but there's probably other guys that could moonlight in this whole thing.
14:11And Keaton Wynn is probably one of those answers.
14:14And et cetera, et cetera.
14:16Eric Miller and Jose Buto, and he got hurt.
14:19Right, so they bet on a series of things that have all come up snake eyes.
14:27That's not an excuse.
14:29I think that is a poorly managed situation.
14:34But that's my guess as to why they didn't go spend big on a closer or find some defined guy.
14:43Besides Edwin Diaz, I don't even really know who was out there for the plucking.
14:47Yeah, I just look at the stuff of the guys you have down in the bullpen.
14:52And Pagaro is the only one that I watch and go, wow, that is some electric stuff.
14:56Ryan Walker's got the two-way movement, the sinker slider.
15:00And he can be effective, but more often than not, he just leaves it in the zone and he gets
15:05touched up.
15:05And these big leaguers are not really phased by 96 with wicked movement.
15:09And so you don't have that guy who comes in and strikes fear into the other team.
15:15Chris in Santa Clara is next up.
15:17Hi, Chris.
15:18Thank you for calling.
15:19What's going on?
15:21Well, you know, I think we're not recognizing that for Tony, that for Tony, this literally was the first time
15:28in his entire life that he had a night game after a night game and a cross-country flight.
15:35And, you know, this is not just, I mean, I'm not even saying just as a coach.
15:39I mean, he never played on that level.
15:40And so that awareness of how does that kind of travel impact a guy who already came into two consecutive
15:47games, you know, it just kind of makes me wonder, like, was he really empathizing with the fact that there
15:53is a physical impact on it?
15:55And it's no surprise that you have a pitcher came in and was not at the top of his game.
15:58And I think also with regard to Logan, he'd never seen Logan throw more than seven innings ever in his
16:06entire life.
16:07And so him going eight innings already, I think, you know, Tony may have been thinking, well, this is a
16:11guy who, you know, normally I got to take him out in the fourth or the fifth.
16:14Or, I mean, oh, my gosh, now he's here in the ninth.
16:16But there wasn't this respect of saying, hey, this is a grown-up, it's not a college kid, not somebody
16:21where, you know, he doesn't have the judgment.
16:25Put him in for the ninth.
16:26I mean, the worst case would be that he needs an extra day to recover and you do a bullpen
16:30game in a few days, right?
16:33So I'm kind of bringing these up for you guys just to think about it's not so much the inexperience
16:37of the baseball decisions.
16:40Chris, I guess the question that you bring up in my mind, Chris, thank you so much.
16:44The question that that brings up in my mind, though, is that makes it sound like Tony has got to
16:49do all of that analytic work on his own.
16:53This is a multi-billion-dollar organization with a humongous analytics department, a huge staff, former major league managers all
17:04over the dugout.
17:06And he's got, and by the way, Logan, Logan, who is a grown-ass man who has finished in the
17:13top six in the Cy Young like three times, been to an All-Star, been to a World Baseball Classic.
17:18Like, this isn't just Tony's out here going, wow, I had no idea that a plane flight would mess up
17:26Keaton Wynn.
17:26There's a whole group of people making this decision.
17:31And that's why it concerns me to hear Logan talk like that, because I just don't really buy that that's
17:39the way it went down.
17:40And B, to your point, Chris, if I've got to play a night game in Chicago and then a game
17:46in San Francisco the next day, you know who I want to lean on?
17:50I want to lean on the guy who didn't play the last four baseball games.
17:54Yeah, and the guy who is used to doing this.
17:56He sat there and watched Chicago.
17:59Right.
18:00Logan.
18:00And I also would want to lean on, if I wanted to go to the pen, I'd lean on a
18:04pitcher who didn't pitch last night and then get on a plane and land at four in the morning and
18:10have to turn around and be in a high-leverage situation again.
18:13That makes no sense to me.
18:14I was just looking at, Mark, 34 starts last year for Logan Webb, 15 times 100 pitches or more.
18:21So that's not even advanced analytics.
18:23That's me going to baseball reference.
18:25And if Tony Vitello and Justin Message and all the rest of the guys in there, if they're not aware
18:31of the fact that this is what Logan does, he throws more than 100 pitches, even when he's not pitching
18:37super great, he was giving up three and four runs and still throwing 110.
18:41The guy who's dealing last night at 99, you send him out there.
18:45Yep.
18:45You don't even ask him.
18:46You ask him, hey, you good?
18:48You good?
18:48You good?
18:49We want to throw you out there.
18:50It's three words.
18:52You good?
18:52Yes.
18:55I don't really know.
18:56It's up to you, Tony.
18:57Because I've only done this.
19:00I've only been doing this now for seven years.
19:02There's no way.
19:04By the way, here's another spin on this.
19:07You know how Logan has talked a couple times last night about when he came out, when he came back
19:14to the dugout, the pitching coach shook his hand.
19:18If I'm Logan, you just done pissed me off.
19:22Don't shake my hand.
19:23That tells you you're going out.
19:25So when then, we're hearing a lot of fans, listeners are saying, oh, this is beta type behavior to then
19:33go to Tony and be like, well, I don't know.
19:35It's your decision.
19:37Well, Logan's already been put on his heels because I think he feels like the pitching coach just spilled the
19:43beans, which is you're out.
19:45Now Logan's like, what?
19:48But it's also probably not a wonderful idea.
19:51You don't want to make a scene in the dugout.
19:53You don't want to be like that guy.
19:55Right.
19:55The same way when Matt Chapman doesn't like having to sit two times in seven games for Bryce Eldridge or
20:02whatever.
20:02Or when the first baseman doesn't catch the ball and you tell him to catch the bleepin' ball.
20:06You don't want to make a scene.
20:07So then when the manager, you sort of feel like you've already been clued in that you're coming out.
20:12Then the manager come over and goes, how you feeling?
20:17Maybe you're on your heels a little bit.
20:18And you're thinking, well, I'm good, but this is up to you sort of thinking, I think you already made
20:26up your mind.
20:27And I don't want to, and I know some people go, no, you got to fight him.
20:33And maybe they're right.
20:34Maybe you got to fight him.
20:36But that's why I don't like the way Logan Webb sounded like.
20:40I like the word you use.
20:41He sounds resigned.
20:43Resigned to lots of bad things.
20:44And resigned to the reality of you hit through 99 pitches.
20:49Last year you did that 34 starts, 15 times you were 100 or more.
20:53So you're a guy who's used to going out there for more than 100, 105, 110, I think 112.
20:59Might have been as high last year.
21:01And you get the handshake followed by a, hey, it's almost passive aggressive.
21:06Like when mom and dad, like the mom says, absolutely not.
21:10You're going right to bed.
21:12And then you walk up and dad's like, hey, you can stay out for another 30 minutes if you want.
21:18But mom just shook my hand and now you're giving me the option?
21:22I'm confused.
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