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00:00Regrets, I have a few. Of course, I have some regrets. I wish that I went out and tackled Roger
00:08Clements in game two and pulled his hamstring. I don't know if he would have gone down, but maybe he
00:14would have. But I didn't even have I didn't have that aggression of that emotion of aggression when he threw
00:23the bat at Mike. It was more bewilderment. What the heck is going on here?
00:29John, we're getting somebody who's going into a Hall of Fame, the Mets Hall of Fame and somebody we covered.
00:34And I think, John, I'd be mistaken. I actually didn't ask you to do this before the show. I loved
00:37covering Bobby Valentine.
00:39The best. He was the best of anyone we've covered. He's the best. I think Mendoza and Boone are both
00:46good to cover. Nobody compared to Bobby Valentine. You'd learn something new every day. And I mean, we always say
00:54it's our favorites coming up. And usually it is because it's people we're getting for the show.
00:58But this is absolutely my favorite guy that I've ever covered. No matter player, manager, coach, whatever. It was just
01:10a lot of fun to cover him, particularly because he loved us and didn't really love all the writers, but
01:16he loved us.
01:17So that makes him even more.
01:19And he knew how to be. And he knew what was interesting. And he wasn't afraid to be, certainly wasn't
01:24afraid to be controversial and interesting.
01:27And it was even when the Mets were bad, he was good to deal with.
01:30You know who's bad today, John? The 2026 Mets. We're going to talk a lot about them at the top
01:37of the show.
01:37We'll talk a little bit about Tarek Skubal and what his market might look like if the Tigers continue to
01:42be the Mets of the American League.
01:44We'll play hit and error at the end if you could stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman
01:48and John Heyman.
01:54You know, John, you and I discussed very briefly, we try to make this as fresh as possible.
01:58How do we do the first block every week of this show?
02:02We'll exchange some text.
02:03And, you know, we agreed it was the Mets. And I kind of almost said, is this boring at this
02:10point?
02:11Because the song remit looked like there when they brought up Ewing and Ben started playing better.
02:18And that made and they took two or three from the Yankees and then scored all those runs and extra
02:22innings against the Nationals that maybe they were going to pivot and start to turn it around.
02:28But their road trip through Washington and Miami was a disaster.
02:32Sunday, I'm sorry, Monday Memorial Day against the Reds coming back home, which is the last game before we're doing
02:38this podcast, wasn't very good.
02:40They're 10 under 500. I know they were in a worse situation in 2024.
02:45And yet this feels impossible to get out of. I wonder what you think.
02:50Yeah, it does. It does. And I'm not big on selling.
02:53I don't really oftentimes you're getting prospects and what do they become?
02:58Not that much. And I am always in favor of going for it.
03:01I even thought they should do it when they had Scherzer and Furlander.
03:05They didn't do that. They traded. They saved some money.
03:08I don't know if Steve Cohen needs to save any money, but they didn't come up with a bunch of
03:11great players as it turned out.
03:13But I am normally against selling to me.
03:16This team looks dead in the water.
03:18I hate to say that. 10 under at this point against the schedule that they've played.
03:24I know they've had a lot of injuries. I know Soto and Lindor both being out, that's crippling.
03:29But this team just does not seem good enough.
03:32I do like Ewing. I think Benja is going to be good, too.
03:37They're not going to lead this team to a championship.
03:40Soto obviously will be back soon. Lindor not too long from that.
03:45But they weren't good when Lindor was playing or when Soto was playing.
03:49So I don't see it.
03:51I think this team needs to be a seller.
03:54And they do have a few good pieces leading off with Peralta.
03:58We'll see if Holmes gets back.
04:00I'm not going to give up on that.
04:02He was great before he had that unfortunate injury.
04:05They have Rayleigh.
04:07They have a few guys I think they could sell.
04:09But to me, this team does not seem like a team that could turn it around enough to make the
04:14playoffs.
04:15And the National League is really good.
04:16And their schedule is really hard going forward.
04:19Yeah, you know, the Holmes trade, I wonder if it ends up being a little like the Shane Bieber trade
04:23last year,
04:24where maybe he's doing rehab starts by the time we get towards August 3rd.
04:28And somebody takes a flyer because they believe in the guy and what's possible down the stretch.
04:32You don't get a ton in return for that.
04:35Peralta feels like the thing maybe.
04:36You mentioned Rayleigh.
04:38Minter is supposed to come back in the next day or two.
04:40I assume he's a guy who could possibly.
04:42Lefty relievers are always needed.
04:44It doesn't sound like they can make a big killing on any of this.
04:48So let me ask you the one that's the tough one.
04:50If Lindor comes back well, do you break it up and say this group is never going to work as
04:57it is?
04:58I'm assuming you can't trade Soto.
05:01There's over $500 million left on the deal.
05:06Well, Lindor is less.
05:07Is it like $5 at $150 or so left on the deal?
05:11Do you break this up and try to do something else?
05:15Yeah, I mean, I'm of a mind you can almost trade anybody, particularly if you've got Steve Cohen as the
05:20owner, right?
05:21Verlander and Scherzer didn't seem that tradable at the time.
05:24And they were traded.
05:25They're not going to trade Soto.
05:28You know, they surprised me a few years ago when they made those trades and traded to future Hall of
05:34Famers.
05:34But they weren't guys who had, what, 13 years to go and five years to go as the New York
05:38Mets.
05:39The question's a little bit like, do you think that it needs to be broken up?
05:44Like, you know, it's some kind of story over.
05:45I think they need to investigate something.
05:48And, you know, it's going to be interesting to see what happens with the CBA and all that.
05:53And I think it's going to, you said it's, you know, trading Soto is difficult.
05:58You could trade anybody.
05:59But, you know, if they have, if the owners think, and I don't think there will be a cap, if
06:04they think there's going to be a cap, it's going to be difficult to trade the Soto deal, right?
06:08Because you get, you know, a big, a huge contract, a record contract.
06:13And if you're an owner and you're hopeful for the cap, it's going to be difficult.
06:18You know, I'm not going to be shocked if Lindor is out there.
06:21I like the guy.
06:23I think he's on his way to the Hall of Fame.
06:26There's something wrong with the mix, I think, at the top.
06:30We've said this on this show many times.
06:32It's probably been underreported in the press.
06:36Not knocking our competitors.
06:38It's underreported everywhere.
06:41But I think they've got to figure out how Lindor and Soto can become, no, they're not arch enemies.
06:48They're not at each other's throats.
06:49You mentioned we trade one of them.
06:52You know, I say get them together in a room and figure it out or investigate potentially a trade of
07:00Lindor.
07:01Not his fault.
07:02I'm not taking sides in this.
07:04They're not, again, they're not arch enemies.
07:08Soto has moved across the room, but they're not speaking as far as I can tell.
07:12You know, it's not like they, you know, actively at each other's throats, that it's infecting the clubhouse that we
07:18know about for sure.
07:19But it is a bad thing that they are not at least outwardly friendly, at least fake it, you know,
07:28something.
07:28I did hear that when Lindor got hurt, Soto went to the trainer's room to check on him and see
07:34on him.
07:34But I agree.
07:35There's not, what I would say, John, is there's just not a lot of camaraderie warmth in it.
07:42And it's your two-star players.
07:44And so that leads to the question of, you know, is there, does that create unease, tension, whatever's going on
07:51there.
07:52And I wrote in the offseason that Steve Cohen should get the two guys together and say, I'm into you
07:56two guys for over a billion dollars.
07:58Can I get you guys to whatever?
08:00And I know how aggregation works now, John, so I'm almost hesitant to say it.
08:06Because I know nothing.
08:08And if I were a betting man, I would bet heavily that neither player is traded, including me.
08:13Right.
08:14Like, I would say that.
08:15I know that's not going to stop anything.
08:19Toronto was run by two ex-Cleveland guys.
08:22And Mark Shapiro and Ross Atkins, they know Lindor well.
08:27They have some offsetting contract types, the Santander, Jimenez kind of guys who could, even if we have a salary
08:35cap coming, it would not be as dire if they put a prospect or two.
08:41I'm only saying, to your point, I agree with you.
08:44Everyone is tradable if you find the right match.
08:48And I think the Blue Jays have learned that when they go big game hunting, it's a little harder in
08:55free agency and maybe it's a little easier in trade for them.
08:59I just, I wonder about it.
09:02That's the one I've been wondering about.
09:03Yeah, it's interesting.
09:04Jimenez and Lindor, again, they were traded once before.
09:08You know, I'm not trading him for dead money like Santander.
09:12I think Lindor is still an excellent player.
09:15Yes, I agree.
09:16He's still an excellent player.
09:17I don't consider it dead money at all.
09:19You know, I know he's got five years to go and I expect him to be worth what he's being
09:24paid.
09:25So I'm not looking at it like that.
09:27I would want to get something positive if I'm going to do that.
09:32And I'm not going to be shocked if they investigate it.
09:35We thought potentially they might do it in the winter.
09:38And again, I'm not blaming Lindor.
09:40We both like Lindor.
09:42We both like Soro.
09:43I wish they liked each other more than it appears that they do.
09:47I don't know that it's any of the reasons.
09:51Certainly, they have much bigger reasons of problems with this team, right?
09:55They brought in all guys who never played in New York and it seems like they're having trouble adjusting.
09:59They brought in guys who had injury history.
10:01They're getting hurt.
10:03You know, those are much bigger problems probably.
10:07You know, I don't know if they're immediately solvable either.
10:10But since you brought up should they trade Lindor and Soto, it got me on that road.
10:15Yeah.
10:16Look, again, I know this doesn't stop aggregators from doing what they do.
10:20I think both players will stay.
10:22I think that they'll continue to build around them.
10:25But I think the way this season has gone, they have to be open to everything.
10:31And besides Peralta, I don't think they have another thing that they would trade that they could get significant return
10:36on.
10:38And the one player that could go in the market that could change everything that we're talking about a lot
10:43more is Tarek Skubal.
10:45He's currently on the injured list.
10:47He had the new surgery, the nanoneedle.
10:50John, you were very much on top of this from the beginning about how he might be able to come
10:55back quicker than thought.
10:57He's already thrown multiple bullpens within two weeks of the procedure.
11:01Like it's the same procedure that had Carlos Rodon.
11:04Like he had loose bodies in his elbow.
11:05He missed a quarter of the season almost.
11:08Rodon and this guy might be, Skubal might be back in June.
11:11The Tigers are the American League Mets.
11:14They're second worst record in the league, in the American League.
11:18They thought they were going for it after making the playoffs two years in a row.
11:22Skubal's a free agent at the end of the year.
11:24At this point, I would think if there's not a turnaround in the next 30 to 40 games by the
11:29Tigers and a significant new turn,
11:32I would think this is a player who's getting traded.
11:35Yeah, I'm not even sure I'm getting it that long.
11:36They've been about as disappointing as the Mets at this point.
11:40They've had so many significant injuries to that rotation.
11:43It just does not seem like their year.
11:46I think there's an excellent chance that Skubal does get traded.
11:50We weren't thinking there was any chance because they were a prohibitive favorite, if you recall.
11:53At the beginning, I had them go to the World Series.
11:57Unfortunately, I can't retract that now.
11:58It doesn't feel that way at this point.
12:01It doesn't even feel like they're a playoff team.
12:03And, I mean, that division's still not great.
12:06Cleveland's winning it.
12:07The White Sox are playing well, but, you know, I'll give it a little more time.
12:12I'm not giving them 30 or 40 games.
12:14I think they're going to start investigating this pretty soon.
12:17They've been very, very disappointing.
12:20And this is a guy who will bring big, even though it's a rental, he will bring big.
12:26If he shows anything in his rehab starts or even real starts for Detroit, he will bring a top 100
12:34prospect and more because he is that good.
12:38Yeah.
12:38You know, part of the reason I mentioned 30 or 40 is he still isn't back.
12:42I think that because it's his third procedure on his elbow, obviously the less of the three, but it's still
12:48third procedure on his elbow.
12:49Tommy John, flexor tendon and this, I think that teams are going to want to see him make multiple starts
12:55after this procedure.
12:57Also, because it's a relatively new procedure.
12:59We don't know is the durability of this procedure the same as if you go in on how, like, say,
13:06Rodon had his surgery for loose bodies.
13:10So, I think people are going to want to see it.
13:12But, John, I'm with you.
13:13If the guy shows anything, he is the back-to-back American League Cy Young winner.
13:19And I would suspect that there will be a big line of teams.
13:22I saw people mention the Yankees.
13:25I mean, the Yankees have maybe 99 problems, but starting pitching ain't one.
13:30But they are the Yankees, right?
13:31It's like the Dodgers.
13:33You've got to throw them in there, right?
13:34If you're going to list five to seven teams, you're probably listing the Yankees.
13:38You might even be listing the Mets.
13:39But, you know, that's probably very unlikely at this point.
13:44How about we finish this?
13:45It's a long way from here.
13:47If he goes, do you have a favorite for who jumps in there and goes and gets him?
13:51You know, I would guess Cubs, who lost an ace.
13:56And, obviously, they've got issues right now.
13:58More on the hitting side.
13:59Or Padres, because we know that A.J. Perler is willing to do anything.
14:03So, I took two.
14:03And I probably took the two most likely from you, if you're going to guess.
14:07If you get the right one now, I think you've done a pretty good job.
14:11Because I think those two are the two obvious ones.
14:14Can I go off the board a little?
14:16Why wouldn't Tampa Bay or Milwaukee try?
14:18No, that's possible.
14:20I mean, Milwaukee's never done.
14:22Tampa's investigated stuff, right?
14:24I mean, what about Otani?
14:26I know they checked in on Soto.
14:28Freeman.
14:30They've looked at stuff.
14:32You know, Milwaukee hasn't.
14:34Milwaukee's got prospects.
14:36But I don't know.
14:37I think the Cubs have the prospects, too.
14:38And Perler will find the prospects, even if they don't have them.
14:41He'll figure it out.
14:43Yeah.
14:44It's one of the interesting storylines moving forward over this third of the season,
14:48now that we are in the second third of the season.
14:51A big deal in New York is coming this Saturday.
14:54Bobby Valentine is going to the Mets Hall of Fame.
14:56He has a lot of history in New York, in baseball, and with John and myself.
15:01And he joins us next on the show.
15:08You know, John, you're nice enough.
15:10You let me do the introduction every week.
15:12And I didn't actually know how to do this introduction.
15:14And I'm going to say that Dos Equis got it wrong, that Bobby Valentine is the most interesting
15:19man in the world.
15:20Like, as I was writing down everything you've done in your life, Bobby, from ballroom dance
15:25champion to still arguably the greatest schoolboy athlete in the history of the state of Connecticut
15:31baseball football track, you know, a 10-year major league career champion in Japan, national
15:37league champion in New York.
15:39And really, look, you're going into, we have you on, you're going into the Mets Hall of
15:43Fame on Saturday with your friend, Lee Mazzilli.
15:47It's a great honor.
15:48But you know, it's a great honor, Bobby, having you on the show.
15:51So thank you so much for joining us here.
15:53Oh, come on, Joel.
15:55You know, honor of me being with you guys.
15:57We're in it together.
15:58You guys started in the 80s.
16:01Like, I started managing in the 80s.
16:03We were really hitting our peaks together in the mid-90s, and we were in New York together,
16:10where you guys were controlling the greatest media world in the world, sports media world.
16:17And we just hit, we hit the road running together.
16:20It's great to be with you guys.
16:22That's for sure.
16:23Thank you, Bobby.
16:25Clearly, I speak for John, one of our favorites to deal with, and I'm sure we'll get into a
16:29lot of this.
16:30But I was trying to think of something I never asked you, and I think I came up with
16:35it.
16:36You were the fifth overall pick in a draft, one pick after Thurman Munson to the Yankees.
16:41You were MVP throughout the minor leagues, and you look like you were on your way someplace.
16:46You get traded to the Angels.
16:47There's a whole story there, right?
16:48Andy Messersmith very famously ends up a Dodger.
16:52And you're hitting over 300 at the point where you have your catastrophic leg injury.
16:58Like, it looks like you're age 23, like you're ready to take off.
17:02Have you ever looked around and said, my career would have been a lot like that, guys, had
17:08I not got hurt?
17:09Is there somebody who's been a Bobby Valentine player over the last 50 years where you could
17:13point out and go, I think that was going to be me?
17:17Oh, I don't know.
17:18I think there are a lot of guys that I thought I played like.
17:23But, you know, as far as that career, I was blessed to, you know, play in the minor leagues.
17:27You mentioned the championships we won in the minor leagues and the MVPs that I won on the
17:31teams with Billy Buckner and Steve Garvey and Ron Say and Tom Pichorek.
17:35I mean, guys who had spectacular major league careers, you know, spanning 15 to 20 plus years
17:41and made all-star teams and did stuff.
17:45And I got to think I would have done stuff, too, over my playing career.
17:50And it would have been fun.
17:52And as it turned out, I had a lot of fun doing something else.
17:55You certainly had a great career.
17:57And I love Joel's introduction.
17:59I think he underplayed it.
18:00You are our favorite, not one of our favorites.
18:02I don't think there's any doubt about that.
18:04We miss you in New York.
18:06I know you have a nice life in Southern California now.
18:09But we do miss you in New York.
18:11And I'm a little embarrassed to start with this question.
18:14But, you know, all you've done in your career and winning championship in Japan,
18:20getting the World Series with a team that nobody expected to get to the World Series,
18:2410-year playing career and everything else that you've done,
18:27you are most remembered for the disguise in the dugout.
18:32I'm sorry.
18:33I apologize.
18:34Tell us about that.
18:36And what do you think about the fact that that's what you are most remembered for?
18:42Well, I'm glad I'm remembered for something.
18:46And when I think back at that, John, and you guys were living it with me,
18:50so I'm not going to make anything up.
18:52You know, that 1999, that was a crazy situation for me in my life.
18:58As you remember, I mean, I think we had a Wharton scandal where, you know,
19:04everyone's going to fire me and burn me on the cross or whatever.
19:08And it was a real bad situation.
19:11And then, you know, we got off to a good start.
19:13And then we hit a slump.
19:14And we went into the Yankee Stadium.
19:16We lost a couple games.
19:18My coaches were fired on June 5th.
19:21We got on a little running, a little hot streak after I predicted that we'd go 40 and 15 or
19:29I'd quit.
19:30Think about how stupid that was.
19:33And you guys are covering it.
19:36And then I call a pitch out on extra innings.
19:38And my best player in the world steps out of the catcher's box too soon.
19:44And I have an umpire going like this and saying that the runner's safe at second.
19:49And the batter's going to go to first because it was a catcher's block and catcher's interference on the same
19:55play.
19:56I said, holy cow, I have three new coaches in the dugout.
20:00Who at the time, you guys know, and this is just my problem.
20:06I thought that they were down there to get me fired.
20:09You know, they came from the front office.
20:10They replaced my favorite coaches, you know, guys who worked the analytics with me, did the video with me, were
20:18in the minor leagues in Texas with me.
20:21And all of a sudden, they're gone.
20:23And I felt naked.
20:24And when I get thrown out of that game, the world was really spinning.
20:29And when Robin and Oral came up to the clubhouse where I was throwing stuff around and kicking stools and
20:40swearing as much as I can about what was happening, they said, you got to go back out there.
20:46You can't stay here.
20:47They need you out there.
20:48I said, oh, boy, that's all that I need to do.
20:51And then the disguise was created.
20:54I went back down.
20:56Oral was supposed to be blocking me so no one could see me.
21:00It's Oral up on the top step.
21:02And I'm kind of behind him.
21:03But the camera shot over his shoulder.
21:07And, you know, another crazy thing about that game, the guy who threw the pitch out in that game was
21:12Pat Mahomes.
21:14Patrick Mahomes' father.
21:16How crazy is that?
21:17And, yeah, well, I came back and got fined.
21:21It made a story.
21:23And we went 40 and 15.
21:24So that was part of that crazy life.
21:27Yeah.
21:29You know, that great story just made me sad because baseball used to be so much fun to cover.
21:36Now we deal with boring nonsense every day and cliches and press conferences.
21:41We miss you, Bobby.
21:41Look, Bobby, I think when it was announced that you were going into the Mets Hall of Fame this year,
21:48we were expecting that there would be a very good Mets 2026 team attached to it
21:52and a big celebratory day on Saturday for the past and the present.
21:57I wonder if I could reach into your best managerial experience, thousands of games.
22:03What would you – do you have any thoughts on why the Mets are so bad right now?
22:07But also, like, what would you do?
22:08We're literally a third of the way through the season as we're talking to you, 54 games.
22:13Is there – you pointed out.
22:15You had this.
22:15We're going to go 40 and 15 the next third of a season.
22:18What could be done, if anything, for a gigantically underachieving club?
22:26Well, Joe and John, you guys know as well as anyone.
22:29And anybody who's watching out there, I want you to know,
22:32Joe would always come back and challenge anything I said.
22:35And then John would come back and say, hey, why did you say that?
22:39I want to explain that personally.
22:41So, you know, so that your listeners and your watchers understand the economy of you two.
22:48But, you know, distractions are the killer of an athlete.
22:57New York has as many distractions as any place in the world.
23:00And when you have a situation of newness that they have in that culture,
23:09newness in the front office, ownership, players, the whole nine yards,
23:14taking away the oldness, the old guard of the three guys who left who were homegrown and all that,
23:23at least they had roots in the ground.
23:24I think that the distractions just become magnified.
23:30And when that sound is overbearing, when the distraction in your ear,
23:37that little guy on your shoulder is yelling too loud,
23:40it's really hard to perform at the little league level.
23:44Never mind at the major league level in New York with high expectations and that team still being across town.
23:52So it's a tough situation.
23:55And how you turn it around, you have to get the guys understanding that there's joy in other guys' successes.
24:05And once they start enjoying their teammates' successes, their failures won't be so magnified.
24:13They won't feel that because they popped up with that man on third that they're going to be tarred and
24:20feathered,
24:20that there's all the sun will come up tomorrow, you know.
24:24And that kind of feeling, that atmosphere has got to start being front and center.
24:32And it's difficult.
24:33There's a lot of teams that struggle with that.
24:36And that's why they don't go to the postseason.
24:38And then there's teams that figure it out and they play beyond the 162.
24:44Yeah, this Mets team is a real underperforming team.
24:47You had a team that was really, I thought, an overachiever in that 2000 Mets team.
24:53You mentioned 99.
24:53That was an outstanding season as well.
24:56But 2000, I mean, you know, you didn't have superstars up and down that lineup.
25:00You had an outfield, Agbayani, Peyton, Bell, which isn't bad, a good major league solid players.
25:06And Agbayani went with you to Japan.
25:09You really made a career for him.
25:11What do you think the key was to that team?
25:14And do you have any thoughts, regrets about the 2000 World Series?
25:18I mean, you're here, you're playing a multi-time champion.
25:22You know, you had that incident in game one with Timo Perez.
25:25Is there any regret, any thought of anything that could have been done to beat the Yankees?
25:30Wow.
25:31You know, to beat the Yankees, we only played six games against them during the season.
25:37But you guys know, as well as anyone, that it was a lot more than six games that we were
25:42playing and competing against the Yankees during those years.
25:46And then down the road a little way, we were competing against the Braves.
25:52They both had, what, half a dozen Hall of Famers and another half a dozen knocking on the door of
25:58the Hall of Fame.
25:59You know, so it was a real struggle.
26:04Regrets, I have a few.
26:05Of course I have some regrets.
26:08I wish that I went out and tackled Roger Clements in game two and pulled his hamstring.
26:16I don't know if he would have gone down, but maybe he would have.
26:19But I didn't even have, I didn't have that aggression of that, that emotion of aggression when he threw the
26:27bat at Mike.
26:28It was more bewilderment.
26:30What the heck is going on here?
26:33And so, you know, would I have done that differently?
26:38Yeah, I think I would have done that differently.
26:40And then there was another time, you know, when we were coming back in that game two and Timo was
26:47hitting with the man on third and one out.
26:50And I always would put my signs on for the next pitch because I thought I would steal signs.
26:57So, you know, my third base coach, Cookie Rose, and I had the system where I would do stuff and
27:02I would say, hey, on the next pitch, we're going to do something unless I take it off.
27:07And I put the squeeze on for the next pitch and Timo hit the ball.
27:12That was the high hopper with Pratt on third base and he didn't go and it was fielded at second
27:18base and they threw to first.
27:20If I put the squeeze on there and we take the lead in game two, you know, after coming back
27:27like that, Roger and yeah, I had some regrets.
27:35I want to say this is that I don't I agree with John.
27:40I'm probably nine out of 10 things.
27:42I don't think you're going to be remembered for the glasses and mustache and nose.
27:47I think you're going to be remembered for how you handle 9-11.
27:51I think that to be around you then was in the worst kind of I'm a New Yorker, John's a
27:59New Yorker.
28:00I mean, terrible moments for our city, our country.
28:03You were inspiring, Bobby.
28:06The way you you were managing a team full time and you had another job time.
28:11And I remember I think I think Jay might have said it in your great interview with Lee Mazzilli over
28:15the weekend with Steve Serby.
28:17I remember saying to Jay, I was standing with him one time watching you load boxes.
28:20And he said, I don't think he actually sleeps talking about you.
28:26And I wonder what you will recall most from a terrible time when you and many in your organization and
28:35many, of course, around the country and our city rose.
28:39But you certainly were a symbol of rising.
28:43Well, yeah, and I I wish I knew that whole moment in time better, because, again, I was just doing
28:54it.
28:55And you guys know that's that's what I did.
28:57I I I did it right.
28:59I threw batting practice.
29:00I I went to the make the speech at the Kiwanis Club.
29:04I I went to the hospital when the guy had a had a baby.
29:08I just did it.
29:09And when 9-11 happened, I just thought it was time to do it.
29:15And it was to share.
29:18It was to give.
29:19It was to do what I think I did best in my life.
29:22And that was share.
29:24I tried to share all my experiences with friends, family, even you guys.
29:30To an extent, I tried to let you get in.
29:34Maybe not all the way in, but let you get in to what was going on.
29:39Because I thought it was important for you guys to know, for the fans to know what I was managing.
29:45And when 9-11 came out, I just thought, wow, I saw some smiles down at at ground zero from
29:52these guys.
29:53You couldn't even see their faces.
29:55They were covered with soot.
29:56And when they saw a hat being given out or a wave, you could see the white of their teeth.
30:03I mean, it was it was, oh, I got to give and I got to do what I do best.
30:09So I tried to.
30:11And I went out.
30:12And thanks for saying that what I did was was good.
30:16What the guys did was great.
30:18What Jay did was monumental.
30:20Because, Jay, let's not forget, he orchestrated all of the giving.
30:26He was the one who said, hey, there's this event that we might be able to help in.
30:32They're this family that they should be invited to the Christmas party, et cetera, et cetera.
30:38And we executed.
30:40But Jay was the one who orchestrated.
30:43Really was a remarkable effort and job by you and by the Mets.
30:48And you will always be remembered for that.
30:50Joel is correct there.
30:52When I ask you about the Hall of Fame and congratulations, well-deserved going into the Hall of Fame.
30:56What does it mean to you and what does it mean going in with Lee Mazzilli?
31:00I ran into him at the stadium the other day.
31:03And he told me that you were his real estate, but not only ballplayers and you were coached with the
31:07Mets.
31:08And you have all sorts of connections.
31:10You're both New Yorkers.
31:12I'm from Brooklyn.
31:12You're from Connecticut.
31:15Tell us about your connection to Maz and what it means for you to go into the Hall of Fame.
31:21Oh, yeah.
31:21And we're Italian.
31:24I left that out.
31:27I'm burying the lead, as usual, John.
31:29And this is going to be where you tell the Tommy Lasorda joke, right?
31:33You're close.
31:34I don't like him because he's Italian.
31:36I like him because I'm Italian.
31:37Yeah, that's vintage Tommy.
31:40It's a full circle, right?
31:42Because when I was in high school in Connecticut, I was going to be a draft choice.
31:48And I was possibly going to be a number one draft choice.
31:52And the Mets had the number one choice in the country.
31:56And I wasn't a Mets fan.
31:58I was a Yankee fan.
31:59But they had the number one.
32:01And they were scouting every game that I had.
32:04And the Mets had conversations with my high school coach and my mom and dad.
32:10And I said, well, maybe I'm going to be a Met.
32:12And, you know, it wasn't on television, the draft.
32:17And it wasn't on the Internet.
32:19And as a matter of fact, the draft was the night that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, that 1968 draft.
32:26So there was a distraction in the information flow, even.
32:32But when the phone call came and I picked up the phone and the guy said his name was Fresco
32:39Thompson and he was the vice president of the Dodgers.
32:43I went, the Dodgers?
32:45Are you kidding me?
32:47They beat the Yankees in that 63 World Series and they swept them.
32:51And I lost five dollars, which I didn't have.
32:54And I got my ass kicked by my dad for betting something.
32:57But anyway, you fast forward a little.
33:01And in 69, I'm a student at USC because a full time student didn't go to Vietnam.
33:10And I had signed my contract and I played a couple of years in the minor leagues.
33:14And I got called up in September just to be in uniform to kind of see what it was like
33:19as a 19 year old for the future that might be.
33:22And the first game I get into is against the 69 Mets.
33:26And I'm on third base after pinch running in a tie game.
33:31And Danny Ozark, the third base coach, says, if you want to steal, you can steal it.
33:36And I said, well, let me time it one pitch.
33:40Again, that one pitch went to haunt me because Willie Davis flew out to left field and the third out
33:47was made and I didn't get to steal against Kuzman.
33:50And if I did, maybe the Dodgers win that game and the Mets don't win the series.
33:54How crazy is that, right?
33:56And when I was being recruited to USC, who do they bring into the party to kind of, you know,
34:03close the deal?
34:04But Casey Stengel, who was neighbors with Rod Dado, who was the USC coach and billionaire.
34:13So, you know, that Mets connection was out there, but it never really came, you know, into my soul until
34:23the worst day in Mets history.
34:26When I get traded on June 15th, 1977, the same day Tom Seaver gets traded, I get traded for Kigman.
34:35And all of a sudden I'm in a Met uniform.
34:38Yeah.
34:39And, you know, those were the worst times in Met history.
34:43And I got booed just because I was one of the guys who got traded to the Mets for guys
34:51who left the Mets.
34:53And, you know, then you understand that Joe Torrey's the player manager for a couple months while I'm there.
35:01And, oh, yeah, he's Italian, too.
35:03And he says to me, OK, take care of the kid.
35:09Oh, boy.
35:10Was that putting Maz in the wrong hands?
35:13And I think just for history, in 76 was that first, you know, implementation of the basic agreement where guys
35:27were free agents.
35:28And I did get traded for Andy Messerschmidt, who was a player rep.
35:33And I was a player rep when the Angels and the Dodgers went back and forth in 73.
35:41I think half of the player reps got traded that year in 73, which was after the first agreement, but
35:48not the first implementation of the agreement, as you guys know.
35:52And so I'm now 77.
35:55I can't play.
35:56I'm sitting at the end of the bench trying to not getting situations that will let people know that I
36:03can't play.
36:04My leg is crooked.
36:05My ankle doesn't work.
36:07But I get to room with Lee Mazzilli.
36:09And that was the last year for roommates, I think.
36:12I think that the next year, guys who are stars like Mazz got singles.
36:17But in 77, we were roommates.
36:20And so it was a spectacular experience with Mazz.
36:27Mazz was the man for whatever it's worth.
36:31No one looked better in a uniform.
36:33There weren't many switch hitters.
36:35There were very few who could run like him.
36:37There was no one who had the flair of an audacity to catch balls in the outfield or the basket
36:44catch, like Willie Mays did.
36:47Whoa, what is this kid doing?
36:49But he did it.
36:50And then you fast forward where I was just lucky enough to be a young coach and then to be
36:57a manager and now to go in the Hall of Fame.
37:00My gosh, well, the Mets are tattooed on my soul.
37:05And I'm glad that they're there.
37:07You know, Bobby, John referenced the 2000 Mets, the team that won the National League Championship.
37:14I actually I've covered good managers.
37:17Buck Showalter, Joe Torre, Aaron Boone, Joe Girardi.
37:21They're all good managers.
37:21And I say over and over again, the best managing job I've ever seen, and I don't think it's really
37:27close, was you with the 1997 Mets.
37:30I challenge the team at 171 games the year before Dallas Green gets fired.
37:35You came in late.
37:36Me and you had a ton of fights.
37:37They were fun.
37:41And I I had like, who are you?
37:44And then I watch and I only got through more suspicious in spring training when you told me Rick Reed
37:49was a surgeon and kind of like Greg Maddox.
37:52And I was like, this guy is out of his freaking gourd.
37:56I challenge anyone to go to baseball reference, look at that team and tell me how it won 88 games.
38:03I I often think managers are neutral.
38:06I think it was the best managing job I've ever seen.
38:10Somebody put ordinary players and send some cases better than ordinary, but or the pre piazza.
38:17Ordinary players into positions where they could succeed and win games.
38:24Best job I've ever seen.
38:25I'm wondering.
38:26And it began to turn the Mets around.
38:28Don't winning team in 97 winning team in 98.
38:31First team to make the playoffs in 11 years in 99.
38:34National League champion in 2000.
38:36It's a pretty good four year run for a team that hasn't sustained success since its inception in 62.
38:42I don't know if you want to talk about that at all.
38:44But like, I actually think it's the greatest managing job I watch from day one.
38:50Thanks, Joel.
38:51I wish I could remember back then that far.
38:54But you know what we were doing in a couple of things.
38:59When Fred Wilpon hired me the first time with Joe McIlvain, he said, I'm going to hire you,
39:06but I want a manager who will manage 12 months a year.
39:09I want you to be here and do it, do it for 12 months a year.
39:13And that happened to be my MO.
39:16So there was no big deal.
39:18But what I was doing at the same time as you guys probably remember is I was building a restaurant
39:25business where I had, you know, seven restaurants going and all that stuff going around.
39:32And I was selling in the restaurant.
39:34And when I realized in the restaurant business that three things were necessary,
39:41if you're going to have a sale or at least one of the three things you had, you had to
39:47be different.
39:49You had to be first or you had to be best.
39:53And, you know, when I came to New York, there was no chance at that time in my mind that
39:58I think we could be best
39:59because that other team was across the town.
40:02And I respected the heck out of them.
40:04And in my first life in Texas, managed against the Yankees, I understood really what the Yankees were,
40:12even though they weren't that good in the 80s.
40:15So fast forward.
40:17We're not going to be best, but let's be different.
40:20And so I put in TVs in the clubhouse, as you remember, and I hired Joe Scarola to be a
40:26video guy
40:27who's going to capture everyone's swing.
40:30And we were going to digitize him.
40:32The guys were going to see him.
40:33And that was different.
40:36And then I said, well, we got to be first at something.
40:40And so I tried to always kind of be one up on people, whether it was using cameras to try
40:46to steal signs
40:47or whether it was, you know, being the first to wear black in New York or the first to do
40:56things
40:56so that we could differentiate ourself.
40:59And then as I think as it went on, you know, the different in the first tried to become the
41:08best.
41:08And I thought that that was like that progression.
41:11But when I first got there, it was where we were going to be different
41:16because that's what we needed to do to distinguish ourself.
41:20And it was kind of fun to do, to tell you the truth.
41:25You're mentioning of owning a restaurant.
41:28And I was there several times in Stanford to Bobby V's.
41:31It was outstanding.
41:33We really enjoyed it.
41:34I do want to ask you, is it true that you invented the rap?
41:38And then I'm going to do another question here.
41:41As anyone who's watching or listening can see, again, we're reminded what a great interview you are.
41:47Did you enjoy our give and take as much as it seems like you did?
41:53And as you recall, Joel and I are two of the Bobos.
41:57And that was a Murray Chass moniker that he laid on about five of the writers,
42:03plus Jay Horowitz, who absolutely loved you.
42:05And, you know, a couple of the other writers didn't love you quite as much as we did.
42:11But did you invent the rap?
42:13And am I correct that you really did enjoy the give and take of the manager-journalist relationship?
42:22I love the give and take.
42:24I think I appreciated the job that you guys did, that you're the messengers.
42:29You're the ones that were making it happen out there.
42:35And letting the world know what the heck was going on inside the clubhouse.
42:40But I guess I enjoyed it most every day.
42:44I enjoyed it because it was that part of the day where I could be challenged a little to say
42:50something that might resonate with the fans
42:52and not resonate so much in the front office, I guess.
42:57But it was more about entertaining.
43:00Again, when Fred Wilpon hired me, he said 12 months a year.
43:05But he also said, and we need the back page.
43:08The Yankees always get the back page.
43:11I remember him saying that.
43:12And I said, well, geez, if we're not walking them off in the ninth inning against the Braves or the
43:17Yankees,
43:18no one is going to care.
43:19So, you know, let's see if we could be entertaining.
43:22And I tried to bring that entertainment thing in.
43:27And the thing about the wrap, yeah, I was coaching for the Mets.
43:31I was running the restaurants.
43:33I was cooking at times.
43:34The one day that I was cooking a tough lunch, I had to make a club sandwich without a toaster.
43:39And I wrapped into the tortilla shell and I served it as a club mix.
43:44And that 10-inch tortilla shell with an American sandwich inside it, a club sandwich, if you will, became the
43:54wrap.
43:55And, you know, they tried to bust me on that multiple times.
43:59I think the Wall Street Journal sent out reporters.
44:02And they did a six-month thing when I was up in Boston for that six-month thing.
44:06And they finally came out and said that the first wrap was on Bobby V's menu.
44:11And I think that's kind of cool.
44:14You were that true renaissance man.
44:16No, no, no.
44:17Like I said at the top, most interesting man in the world.
44:21Prosecki's had a wrong.
44:22Bobby, can I end it again?
44:24I don't know where a personal story will go here.
44:28And you go wherever you want.
44:31You mean a lot to my career.
44:33I learned a ton of baseball from Buck Showalter and you.
44:36You were the two guys who, if I feel like I got a PhD at some point, you were nice
44:40enough to do it.
44:41It didn't start great.
44:42And that was my fault, by the way.
44:45I learned something not to let other people make their judgment for me.
44:48You had a lot of enemies in Texas.
44:51And they were people I know.
44:53And I was like, oh, I bet this guy's a jerk.
44:55And instead of making my own decision.
44:57So it was something to learn along the way.
44:59And after you took over for Dallas, I remember coming into your office and the team is playing terrible.
45:05And it feels like you're doing very little.
45:07And I said, I said, like, you know, I was ridiculous then.
45:12And I probably challenged you in a ridiculous way.
45:15And I said, and you finally looked at me and go, I'm not managing the team.
45:20And I went, what?
45:22And he goes, like you said, we're terrible.
45:24There's nothing to manage.
45:25I'm watching what's worth saving here so that we're good.
45:29He said, watch me next year.
45:31I'll manage the team next year.
45:32This just can't be fixed.
45:33Like, I'm observing.
45:35I'm not managing.
45:36And it was the first time I thought, I have the guy wrong.
45:41I was like, he's so much smarter than me than I thought.
45:45And it was really valuable for me.
45:47You were impressive with your aggressiveness.
45:52When I finally said to probably the great Larry Rocca, how about that, Joel?
46:00He's a fighter, isn't he?
46:02And he said, fighter?
46:03He'll fight a drop of the hat.
46:05He's a street fighter.
46:06You're not going to win any battles with him.
46:09And I went, wow, a street fighter.
46:12This is the guy.
46:13And for the listeners and the watchers, you know, Joel's presence was ever seen.
46:22John was spectacular.
46:24And I mentioned Larry Rocca and, of course, Artie Noble, who had his ways, and Murray Chasson,
46:30and Bobby Klappish, and all the guys who built that great sports communication community
46:39of the 90s and the 2000s in New York.
46:44And I'm glad to see that you're all national heroes now.
46:48But, you know, but Joel's presence had a shining light on it because the questions were cutting.
46:55But they weren't only cutting in the questioning realm.
47:01They were thought-provoking.
47:05They made me give a good answer.
47:08They made me think about what I was saying because he already had an answer, and I wasn't
47:15always going to match his answer, but I was going to make sure that my answer was something
47:21that would stand up to him.
47:23And, Joel, just to give you the credit that's needed, when I went to Japan, that situation
47:33was on steroids.
47:35Because everything that I did, everything that I said, all the baseball thoughts that
47:41I had were questioned over and over and over again.
47:46And I can't tell you how many times I had Joel Sherman flashbacks when my coaches were sitting
47:52there and saying, well, why would you swing up at the ball?
47:56We swing down at the ball.
47:58And I would say, I got an answer for that one.
48:02I didn't mean for that to turn the way it did.
48:04This is your time, Bobby.
48:08You richly deserve, you helped change the Mets at a point, a low point, and brought real
48:14interest to it.
48:16Between that and what you did at 9-11, this is overdue with the Mets.
48:20And I'm thrilled.
48:23And again, I hate talking for John.
48:25I'm sure John feels the same way.
48:26We loved covering you.
48:27But we also know that you brought distinction to what you did with the Mets and distinction
48:33personally with what you did with 9-11.
48:36Saturday is a well-earned day.
48:39Congratulations.
48:40And I hope you enjoy the heck out of that day.
48:42Thanks, Joel.
48:43Thanks, John.
48:44And they gave me 90 seconds for my speech.
48:47Think about that for a second.
48:48I've been thinking of how I could put in the writers and the press into my speech.
48:55But I don't think I'm going to do it.
48:56So at this time, I'm going to say thank you, guys, for sharing whoever I am, whatever I
49:03did, whatever I was thinking with the rest of the world.
49:06And that's what I wanted to do, is just share as much as I could.
49:11Thank you, Bobby.
49:12All the best.
49:13It's a joy.
49:14Not only a pleasure, it's a joy to have you on.
49:23John and I, of course, thank the great Bobby Valentine and congratulate him on the Mets
49:28Hall of Fame.
49:29John, hit or error?
49:30I'm going to give a hit to the great rookie class.
49:33A lot of great rookies are doing spectacularly this year.
49:37J.J.
49:37Weatherholt from the Cardinals.
49:38The Guardians have two, at least, with Messick and DeLauder.
49:44You've got Murakami, who is lighting things on fire there for the White Sox on the south
49:50side.
49:50He's an MVP candidate, actually, leading the American League in home runs.
49:54And, of course, McGonigal with the Tigers has been a spectacular two-way player, incredible
50:01with runners in scoring position.
50:02One bright spot for the Tigers, who are probably about as disappointing as the Mets otherwise
50:08as so far.
50:09But at least they have McGonigal.
50:10And I'm probably leaving out four or five others that are doing great as well.
50:14You know, you mentioned Tigers and Mets.
50:16The Mets, like the rest of their season, to be successful, would have to be McLean, Benj,
50:22and Ewing, all rookies.
50:23Right?
50:23Like, they need those guys to, if they're going to play better this year, they need
50:28them.
50:28And if you're going to believe in the future, you need them.
50:30John, I'm going to go almost to the complete other end.
50:32I'm going to go to a 37-year-old and give a hit to Chris Sale, who really is remarkable.
50:39If you went, you know, like we know what his early career was from 2012 to 2018, mainly
50:44with the White Sox, but a little with the Red Sox.
50:45He never finished below six for seven straight years for the AL Cy Young.
50:50And then for five years in Boston, he made a total of 56 starts with an over four ERA
50:55and got traded in a nothing package, it seemed, to Atlanta.
50:59And since he went to the Braves, he did win that Cy Young in 2024.
51:03He started 59 games.
51:05He has a 236 ERA.
51:07By the way, that's what it is this year also.
51:10As he's in, you mentioned the Rookie of the Year class.
51:14How about the Cy Young in the National League?
51:17So I'm assuming Mizoroski's the frontrunner right now, but you can't ignore Otani.
51:21You can't ignore Christopher Sanchez, Yamamoto.
51:25Who else did I write down here?
51:27Miller.
51:28Mason Miller, yeah.
51:30And a few others who've done well.
51:32But that 37-year-old Chris, you know what I think he's done?
51:34I think he's locked down the Hall of Fame with what he's done the last three years.
51:37Oh, absolutely.
51:38I mean, he's a clear first ballot Hall of Famer at this point.
51:41Certainly has done it.
51:42I think that Cy Young in Atlanta did it, and he's continuing on.
51:46So, yeah, that's a great one.
51:48Chris Hale's been amazing.
51:50Cy Young, a race in the National League, incredible.
51:53You know, I hadn't thought Mizoroski, he might be the favorite at this point, right?
51:58In the last, I don't know, six starts, he's got no extra base hits allowed and more than 50 strikeouts.
52:03You know, that hadn't been done in, I don't know, forever.
52:06But, I mean, Christopher Sanchez, 37 and two-thirds scoreless in a row, that's the longest streak for that organization
52:12since Grover Alexander.
52:14So, that's quite a while ago.
52:16So, you know, I would have thought Sanchez, but, you know, Tani with his 73 ERA and an 83 whip,
52:24I think that's right.
52:26Miller, as you pointed out.
52:27Miller, 16 for 16.
52:29And Miller is an MVP candidate.
52:30I mean, the Padres, they cannot hit.
52:34Manny Machado, I can't even believe, I saw he was batting 170.
52:38Merrill's under 200.
52:39Otatis has zero home runs, and yet they are in playoff position.
52:42So, why are they in playoff position?
52:44So, to me, Miller, probably more of an MVP candidate than a Cy Young candidate, which is a little bit
52:50rare.
52:50But, at this point, it's got to be one of the starters for Cy Young, right?
52:54I mean, they're so good that it's got to be either Mizorowski, Sanchez, Otani, or Sale.
53:01Yeah, it is that time to look.
53:02It's one-third of the season.
53:04Grover Cleveland, good interview or bad, John?
53:07Okay.
53:08I'm only a couple years older than you, Joel.
53:10That's right.
53:10That's right.
53:11He was tough to deal with.
53:13Anyway, you know who's easy to deal with?
53:15Tommy Hogan, our great producer.
53:16Thank you, Tommy, for everything you do every week.
53:19Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, please rate and review us.
53:23The New York Post YouTube sports page, give us a view.
53:26And please continue to stay with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
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