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00:00I think he's in real trouble today. Do you not think that?
00:03Yeah, I mean, I think that is a possibility, certainly.
00:08John, we didn't go very far down on the all-time managerial win list to get a guy this week,
00:14and a guy who has his team, the Cincinnati Reds, in first place, and that's Tito Francona.
00:19Yeah, one of our favorites. Great interview, as well as a great manager.
00:23One of the greatest managers of all time.
00:24I don't think he's number 11 on the list of who's the greatest manager, maybe win list.
00:29So, metrically, I guess he's 11th, but in terms of who's the greatest manager ever, he might be in the
00:34top three.
00:35He is that good, and he is a great interview.
00:38Yeah, and it's really timely, John, because obviously his Reds and what's suddenly a very tough NL Central are in
00:44first place,
00:45but it's also an interesting time for managers in big markets around the sport, and we're going to ask them
00:52about that.
00:53You and I will play hit and error at the end, and at the top, we'll talk about the disaster
00:57that is the New York Mets.
00:58If you stick with us, on the show, with Joel Sherman and John Hayman.
01:07John, not a lot has changed since we last did a show.
01:12Our first segment last week was dominated by the poor play of the Mets.
01:16It's hard.
01:17We'd like to give the other 29 teams, especially the Yankees, who have the best record in the American League,
01:22some equal time,
01:23but it's hard to ignore that the Mets, with a $380 million payroll, which means about $500 million all in
01:31with luxury tax,
01:33are tied with the Phillies, another team who's spending a ton for the worst record, not just in the NL
01:39East, but in the major leagues.
01:40And it means that there's a managerial watch already going on for Carlos Mendoza and all of us making lists
01:48about who's to blame the most for how we got here.
01:52So I just wonder, we're taping this on a Tuesday morning.
01:57The Mets are about to end a homestand with three games against the Nationals.
02:01Do you think Carlos Mendoza can survive this, and do you think he should survive this?
02:05First of all, let me say, this is three shows in a row where it was about the Mets, three
02:10in a row, and they've been terrible.
02:11They have a Ripken-like streak going.
02:13I mean, hopefully it's somebody else next week that we pick on, because it's getting tiresome for them and probably
02:20for us, too, and hopefully not the audience.
02:23But I think that Mendoza is in trouble, and I don't know that he's going to survive this season.
02:28I think that's unfortunate.
02:30I don't believe on any list that he's anywhere near the top.
02:33I know that the fans are complaining.
02:35They saw one little mistake here or there.
02:38He shouldn't have pitched to Horner.
02:39They shouldn't have had two pitchers cross the line and looked like they were coming in the game.
02:44You know, these little things are not the reason that the Mets have a 9-19 record.
02:50Look at the stats.
02:51They have the worst hitting in baseball, and it's not even close.
02:54I didn't even have to look it up.
02:55I know they have the fewest runs, the worst OPS, the worst on base, the worst slugging, the worst everything
03:01that's important.
03:02They cannot hit.
03:03That is their main issue.
03:06Now, do they have other issues?
03:07Sure, they do.
03:07But Carlos Mendoza is not near the top of the list of the issues they have.
03:12So I hope he makes it.
03:13I do give David Stearns credit for going this far, and I think he's going to go further.
03:17And I think it's because he's smart, not just because he doesn't want the onus now to be on him.
03:22I think he's a smart guy, and he realizes this is not a great team as constructed.
03:27And, you know, he certainly can look in the mirror.
03:30It's not good.
03:31I mean, I went out there Sunday to watch the doubleheader, even though I wasn't writing.
03:36I wanted to see what was going on, and they just can't hit.
03:40That's it.
03:41Bottom line.
03:42Is that Carlos Mendoza's fault?
03:44Absolutely not.
03:45Yeah.
03:45You were the guy sitting next to me on Sunday for those 18 innings.
03:48Yeah.
03:48Yes.
03:49I didn't say we were.
03:50I was just observing.
03:51Just wanted to see what was going on.
03:53Look, if you were observing them get swept both in a three-game series and over 18 innings on Sunday,
03:59obviously this is in a miserable place.
04:01And I actually think that the team is so poorly constructed that if you had an AI program managing this
04:08perfectly,
04:09like when you don't know what arm to bring in from the bullpen when,
04:13partially because you have a bunch of starters stuffed out there that need a lot of time off you between
04:17each time they pitch,
04:18then you have a couple of guys like Carl Edwards and Craig Kimbrell who haven't been, like, really special relievers
04:23for a while,
04:24and then the ones you expect to be special relievers, Weaver and Williams haven't really been very good.
04:29I mean, what do you do like when you have zero and, and, and, and John, to your point, that
04:34isn't even problem one.
04:36They have a lineup with one dead spot after another.
04:40The innings are ridiculously easy.
04:43I remember, you know, Stick Michael taking over the 1990 Yankees and he, I once, he hasn't like, what's job
04:50one?
04:51He said, our innings are ridiculous.
04:53He said, we just make it too easy for the other team, like to breeze through us.
04:57I mean, Dolan is having a nice season.
04:59I don't know that he broke a sweat in game two.
05:02I mean, he was, he was rolling through them.
05:05And, and so my problem, John is, I don't know how easily fixed, like four weeks ago, we thought they
05:11were good.
05:12We thought they had depth.
05:13Today, it's hard to see how you fix that when Lindor is far away.
05:17Polanco isn't close.
05:18Uh, the rotation is a bit of a mess.
05:22Um, you know, you, you, you, you've got some real issues, uh, going, going on, you know, like, and I
05:31don't know how easily fixatable it is.
05:32And the one kind of like jolt you can do is the manager.
05:37And by the way, I don't think it's a manager's fault and I wouldn't fire the manager.
05:40I'm just like, what else can you do to try to salvage, like trying to sell tickets the rest of
05:46the year, trying to keep interest in this?
05:49Yeah.
05:50I mean, and as you do this, I'm getting a note that Thompson has now been fired.
05:53So, uh, you know, it's always blamed the manager season.
05:56You know, I'm not there.
05:57I don't know.
05:58I'm not going to make a too great a judgment on that one.
06:01They're obviously been terrible.
06:02They haven't played well at all.
06:04They look like a mess defensively.
06:06They have the lowest, the worst record and metrically defensively.
06:09Uh, the Mets don't have that.
06:11I, you know, I know we can pick on one thing here or there.
06:13The Mets issue is much more obvious than that.
06:16They cannot hit.
06:17And I'm going to give you a little credit here.
06:18I know you said, we thought this, we thought that you, you were less, uh, optimistic, I think about the
06:24Mets, at least than I was.
06:26Uh, although we did say early on in the podcast that the Yankees are more of a sure thing.
06:31The Mets could go, uh, either way, uh, certainly.
06:35Um, but I, you know, I'm going to point to a few things that I got wrong.
06:39So I, you know, I'm not sitting here saying that, uh, we all knew this was coming.
06:43Uh, you know, Benj is ready is one thing I said in, in, uh, spring training while he was facing
06:49spring training type pitchers.
06:50So we'll see.
06:51I mean, you know, he has looked a little better the last couple of games.
06:54I'll say that, but we're not sure that he's ready at this point.
06:57You know, Bichette, a great hitter.
06:58Uh, I'm going to stick with it.
07:00Bichette's a great hitter, but, uh, there was an adjustment period in New York,
07:04which I probably forgot about.
07:06I wrote about the great pitching depth right now.
07:08They have three very good pitchers, right?
07:11So that's not terrible, but it's not deep right after the top three, uh, they, they're lost at this point,
07:18right?
07:18We don't know what they're going to do with Senga.
07:20They've already demoted Peterson.
07:21And I'm not, I don't really get why Peterson was the first one demoted.
07:25Uh, I, I felt like he was better than Senga to begin with.
07:29I don't know.
07:29Maybe they thought the ceiling was great on saying guy.
07:32I don't know.
07:32Oh, Peterson was an all-star last year, but right now they have three guys that they trust and three
07:37who are good.
07:38So, uh, you know, there, there are a lot of issues on this team.
07:41The main one, as I said, and I'm not going to repeat it a million times is, you know,
07:45if you're the worst hitting team in baseball by far, it's not even close.
07:49Uh, you're not going to win a lot of games.
07:51Uh, the idea that it was all about run prevention to me made no sense.
07:55Uh, you know, that's half the game, right?
07:57Half the game is run production.
07:59Uh, who does it look like they need now?
08:01I mean, obviously Pete Alonzo is not off to a good start in Baltimore, but, uh, they need a guy
08:06who plays every day.
08:07They need a guy who can hit home runs.
08:09Uh, you know, they need a guy who can play some semblance of first base.
08:13They've had a rotation of four guys at first base and they've all made Pete Alonzo look like a gold
08:17glove winner at this point.
08:19So, uh, they're pretty terrible.
08:21Yeah, it's, it's problematic, John.
08:23Uh, you know, uh, look, let's, uh, while we're doing this, Rob Thompson was fired.
08:28Don Manningly was made the interim manager.
08:30It means two managers from huge Northeast cities with huge payrolls and huge expectations have been fired before April is
08:42done.
08:42The ice cannot feel steady under Carlos Mendoza's, uh, uh, feet.
08:48Uh, and I would say that the biggest problem in Boston was not Cora.
08:54It was Breslow.
08:55And the biggest problem in Philly was not Thompson.
08:58It's how this team was put together.
09:00That's Dave Dombrowski.
09:01That's Don Manningly's son, Preston.
09:03Like it's very old.
09:05It's not deep.
09:06The younger, you know, prime guys like, like Bowman, Stott aren't what they thought they were going to be.
09:11And I think the biggest problem, and you've detailed some of this is really this David Stearns, who had kind
09:19of a little bit of a magical first year where the Mets were a pleasant surprise and got all the
09:24way to the NLCS after getting 11 under 500, which maybe gives some people hope about where, where, where this
09:30team could still go.
09:31So I, I'm going to say that Soto and Alonzo short contract are a lot about ownership here.
09:38And that, the good move in the last two years is Clay Holmes.
09:42And the second best move is help me.
09:45What, Tyler Rogers at the trade deadline last year?
09:48That's okay.
09:49Pretty good.
09:50But like, there's a lot of disaster here.
09:53I mean, Frankie Montas is a disaster.
09:56Like that isn't big.
09:57And when you're talking about the rotation, Senga isn't his.
09:59It isn't just that they only have three guys going well.
10:02They have like a disaster.
10:03Right.
10:04I mean, he's in a slump.
10:06There's no question.
10:07He's in a slump.
10:0734 million for Montas.
10:09I mean, that's less than the 75 million that went from Mania.
10:12Now, Mania did perform well in New York.
10:14I don't think anyone was against them bringing him back.
10:17But that has not worked out either.
10:19I mean, look at that offseason, the previous offseason where they brought in Winker as well.
10:23They brought in three guys who have brought nothing to the party.
10:26I think I added up the total war from like, I don't know, 150 million spent.
10:31It was like one or something like that.
10:33And then at the deadline, it was almost negligible.
10:37Rodgers was a good move, but the other ones did not work.
10:40I think Helsley was tipping his pitches.
10:41He looks a lot better in Baltimore.
10:43But for whatever reason, it didn't work.
10:46Mullins was terrible in center field.
10:49And then we had this last winter, and none of this is working either.
10:53So I'm going to say he's in a slump.
10:54I'm still going to believe he's a smart guy.
10:57He's obviously not on the hot seat yet.
10:59He is a general manager with a longer contract.
11:02Mendoza's contract is up.
11:04Basically, they have an option that's a team option.
11:06So his contract is up.
11:08They did hire him.
11:09I do think they're smart enough to realize it's not his fault.
11:13That said, I go back to what I said earlier and say that his chances to stay into next year
11:18are not great when you're 9-19.
11:21I mean, it's hard to believe that's the same record that the Mets, the 1962 Mets had after 28 games,
11:27tied for the second worst in franchise history.
11:30Now, is it possible to dig out of it?
11:33Yeah, I'm not even sure at this point, right?
11:35I mean, no team that's ever made the playoffs had a 12-game losing streak.
11:40You know, and they did have the 12-game losing streak.
11:43How many started 9-19?
11:45Not many.
11:47I guess theoretically it's possible, but they look terrible.
11:50And because it's not the manager and there's no easy fix, I'm not sure they can dig out of this.
11:57Even to, you mentioned Cedric Mullen, they gave up the relief pitcher, was it Anthony Nunez, who's pitching terrific for
12:03Baltimore right now.
12:04Rico Garcia, who was through here a couple of times last year, is the kind of reclamation project that, like,
12:10thrived in Milwaukee when Stearns was there.
12:12He's thriving in Baltimore after being through here.
12:14I mean, if they had Nunez and Garcia, that would look a lot better than, like, Kimbrel and Edwards that
12:19they have going right now.
12:21Like, just some of the stuff he had had real touch with Stearns in previous places hasn't happened.
12:26And so, like, John, I don't know how you felt.
12:28Like, at the end of last year when things went terrible, I kind of said, look, David Stearns is a
12:33really bright, really talented, proven executive.
12:36And so it was like if I had 100% faith in him, it dropped to, like, 90%.
12:41I still was like, come on.
12:42This guy is really good at this.
12:45And he's armed with Cone's money and an infrastructure level that he could build with that he couldn't do in
12:50Milwaukee.
12:51I got to say that I still think he's a talented, smart, and he'll probably get this right.
12:58But is my faith now at 65% or 70% over the long term?
13:03Like, this is a lot that looks bad.
13:06And if now you fire your first managerial hire a few weeks into a season after you could have done
13:12it last year, maybe with some cause and had a real search, as opposed to whatever shotgun thing is going
13:19to go down now as you scramble around, are you really going to make Kai Correa your manager after a
13:25few weeks?
13:25I mean, like, are you really going to bring Carlos Beltran, who has already been fired once as Mets manager,
13:31back?
13:32Are you going to, like, elevate Andy Green out of the minor leagues to do this?
13:36Are you going to ask J.D. Martinez, hey, man, you've never done anything like this.
13:39You want to take a shot at this?
13:41I mean, I don't – I just feel like this falls on his doorstep.
13:47And I'm not – like, it feels like he got him into this mess to me, and he should be
13:54the guy who's figuring out how to get him out.
13:56Is really firing the manager the way to get out of this?
13:59It just – it feels wrong to me, John.
14:02Yeah, it's not right.
14:04Occasionally that's worked, right?
14:05I mean, one of the cases is Rob Thompson, who just got fired.
14:09That worked.
14:11You know, he obviously turned it around.
14:13He was – you know, even though he was Joe Girardi's friend, he was obviously different than Joe Girardi.
14:18The team reacted differently.
14:20Jack McKeon's the ultimate example, replacing Jeff Torborg, who didn't do such a great job with the Mets either,
14:26and had managed a team that's kind of reminiscent of this one, the worst team that money can buy.
14:31Yeah, you know, my – I always have that rule that if a team collapses, you kind of have to
14:35fire the manager.
14:36I didn't feel that way last year.
14:38It was a bad collapse last year.
14:41I don't think anybody around the team felt that way, so I understand that.
14:46But now it's not going to help.
14:49I just don't see how – I do think – you know, I mean, Mattingly is now the manager in
14:54Philly.
14:55You know, they had an easy call there, and I know people were saying, well, now it's Cora.
15:01You know, he and Domarski have a good relationship, which they do.
15:05You know, maybe in Philly, because I'm not seeing it in Philly, and I know they have a negative 50
15:10-something run differential,
15:11so they've obviously been terrible.
15:13I'm not seeing it, but I kind of think that they have a better chance at a turnaround.
15:17I'm not seeing it with the Mets.
15:19I don't believe that the manager is any part of this issue – I mean, a very minor part of
15:24this issue.
15:24And it would just be the wrong thing to do, and I think David Stearns should understand that at this
15:30point.
15:30I mean, by the end of the year, if they won 60 games or something like that, you know, I
15:35mean, you know, of course it's going to happen.
15:37But I think he understands it.
15:40I'll say this is I agree with you, and I think they better do some winning against the Nationals over
15:47the next few days.
15:48Like, they decided to hold on to the ticket selling for the latter months of the year, thinking that they
15:54were going to, like, put gold out on the marketplace.
15:58And, John, by the end of that doubleheader, we saw what was what.
16:02There were a couple of thousand people there.
16:04They were either sarcastically applauding when a reliever would occasionally throw a strike for the Mets or just out and
16:11out booing.
16:13Cone made a big deal about getting the fans back and building up attendance, which he did last year.
16:19He certainly doesn't want to do that.
16:21I was in the dugout this year when he made it like the playoffs are the baseline and that, like,
16:28it's been too long since we won a championship and we've been serially good.
16:34And I know, and both of us know this, John, I think that both Steve Cone and David Stearns have
16:40a very, very soft spot for Carlos Mendoza.
16:44They like him.
16:45They respect him.
16:46Plus, it's the right thing to do beyond a soft spot.
16:49He's not to blame.
16:50I mean, if you're a fan, you're upset.
16:52I agree.
16:52You might be calling for his head, but I think they're smart enough to know it's the wrong thing.
16:56I agree it's the wrong thing.
16:58I think that he's on, but I don't think this is a, hey, you won 60 games this year and
17:05now you're fired.
17:05I think he's in real trouble today.
17:08Do you not think that?
17:09Yeah, I mean, I think that is a possibility, certainly.
17:14Certainly if they get swept by the Nationals after they got swept by the Rockies.
17:18I mean, I guess they figure it can't hurt at that point.
17:22You know, obviously they came back with a big losing streak.
17:26You know, they looked a little better against the Twins, against the Rockies.
17:29They didn't do anything.
17:30I think Dolan is excellent, but that's one game.
17:33You know, they're 9-19 and they have the worst offense in baseball.
17:36Dolan is good, but I mean, they were completely dead against him.
17:39I mean, the innings were going like 6-7.
17:41I mean, the booing, the crowd, it's brutal.
17:45I mean, the attendance, I do believe he loses $200 million plus a year,
17:49and it's going to be another year of a $200 million loss.
17:52So, I mean, at some point, you're right, it's not going to take until the end of the year.
17:57If they're heading towards 60 wins and if they lose these three games, yeah,
18:03I mean, I think that's probably what you do,
18:05but I don't believe that they think it's a solution.
18:08You know, at some point the fans are so upset, the team is so dead.
18:14You know, probably right.
18:15You're probably right.
18:16If they do poorly against the Nats, he's probably in trouble, unfortunately.
18:21Yes.
18:21Do you want to do 30 seconds, your best 30 seconds on the Yankees?
18:25They're great.
18:26They're fantastic.
18:27What do we say?
18:29They're bringing up Elmer Rodriguez to start tomorrow in this series.
18:33Yeah, I mean, do they need more starting pitching?
18:36This guy's doing great in the minors.
18:37What if he's great too?
18:39And Legrane's great.
18:41Rodon is coming back.
18:42Cole's coming back.
18:43They already have the best starting pitching in baseball.
18:45I mean, you know, they say you can never have too much pitching.
18:48I mean, right now it looks like they might have too much good pitching.
18:52John, my 30 seconds on it is you were kind.
18:54You mentioned what we talked about early in the year where I was like,
18:58I had never in the post in 36 years picked the Yankees to win the World Series.
19:02I picked them to win the World Series because I thought they had starting pitching high-end quality
19:07and high-end quantity.
19:08And my concern about the Mets was I saw some quantity.
19:12I wasn't quite as sure about the quality.
19:15And I'm always worried, even in a sport where cohesion doesn't feel like as important as basketball and football,
19:22that when you bring in a lot of people, especially into our town or Boston or Philly,
19:27that it's hard to make it all work at one time.
19:31So that's why – and yet I still picked – let's be honest.
19:33I picked the Mets to win their division.
19:35Yeah, I mean, look, Philly looked like they were aging, right?
19:38I mean, Philly looked like they were aging.
19:40Atlanta had that terrible, terrible offseason and spring with all, you know,
19:45pro-far and all the pitching injuries.
19:48So you had to pick one out of the three, I assume, right?
19:52So, I mean, not to make excuses, we both look dead wrong right now.
19:56Yeah, so, like, I'll close with this.
19:58Is Atlanta lost five starting pitchers?
20:00You want something else wrong with the Mets?
20:02They got rid of their veteran pitching coach, Jeremy Hefner.
20:05The Braves have the – with five starters on the IL,
20:07they have the best ERA in the major leagues.
20:11They lead the division.
20:12They lead the Phillies and the Mets by quite a lot.
20:15Somebody else leading the division is the Cincinnati Reds.
20:18They made the playoffs over the Mets last season.
20:21That was Terry Francona's first year managing the Reds.
20:24He's one of the most successful managers in the history of the game,
20:26and he joins us next on the show.
20:33John and I are so thrilled to be joined this week by the manager
20:37with the 11th most wins in the history of our fine game,
20:402051 of them, while managing in Boston, Philly, Cleveland, Cincinnati.
20:48The Reds hadn't made the playoffs in 162-game season since 2013,
20:52before last year.
20:54That was Terry Francona's first season as the Reds manager.
20:57Terry Francona, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
20:59My pleasure, guys.
21:00Good to see you.
21:01Tito, you did make the playoffs last year.
21:03You got in on the last day with 83.
21:05You're sitting at 18-10 in your division right now.
21:09And everybody in the NL Central is over 500, as we're speaking.
21:13It's very early in the season.
21:14I assume to get in this year, you're going to have to be better than last year.
21:18Are you a better team than last year?
21:21And if so, why?
21:21Well, I agree with your premise, and I hope that you're right,
21:26that we are better.
21:27Because last year, like you said, we got in on the last day.
21:32And as exciting as that was, you know, our goal can't be to win 83 games and to, you know,
21:39barely get in and then only get to stay for two days.
21:42But, you know, and like I said, I told our guys earlier this year, as long as our trajectory
21:47is going this way, I'm okay with that.
21:49As long as that was the starting point.
21:51And our guys have done a really, really good job of competing.
21:55And, you know, we started out the year, we didn't swing the bats very well,
22:00but it didn't get in the way of us winning games.
22:04And because a lot of times, you know, you hear guys go, well, we'll be okay once we start hitting.
22:09Well, it doesn't work that well.
22:11Our guys have competed like crazy.
22:13And that's the good part.
22:15You know, there's going to be ups and downs during the year.
22:17There always is.
22:18But our guys do a good job of competing.
22:21Terry, first of all, great introduction, Joel.
22:24You left out one thing, future Hall of Famer.
22:26I mean, he's one of the best managers of all time.
22:29And last year was a miracle year, I thought.
22:32We're doing this for New York.
22:33We were shocked that you guys beat out the Mets for the playoffs.
22:36Let me ask you, were you shocked?
22:38And then going into a series against the Dodgers, I know it's a short series.
22:42Did you think you had a chance against that team?
22:44Well, I mean, I certainly respect who the Dodgers are.
22:48But you always feel like you got a chance.
22:51That's just how we're built.
22:52Even when it doesn't reach, you always figure, well, we'll figure out a way to make it reach.
22:57But I did kind of teasingly said to Freddie Benavides after like the second inning, I go, man, I don't
23:03know whether to try to get these guys out or get their autograph.
23:06I mean, it's a pretty good lineup.
23:09But I told our guys this spring, it's time for us to stand up and try to go toe-to
23:16-toe with some of these teams.
23:17Because I think that's where we're at in their progression of their experience and their career.
23:22Tito, I'm just wondering, how does, I mean, you still have a relatively young team that you challenge.
23:27How do they respond when one of the, you know, to John's point, I did leave it out, you're Cooperstown
23:32bound.
23:33A manager of your status challenges them.
23:36How does that go?
23:37Well, I don't know about my status because I think as a manager, as a player, as a coach, as
23:43a manager, you're earning that every day.
23:47And it's always we.
23:49And I think our guys understand the expectations.
23:53I want, you know, we want to ask a lot of them on the field, but we also want to
23:57have their back and care about them and things like that.
24:00And this group from day one, when you ask them something, they try to do it.
24:04Nobody's ever late for meetings.
24:06They're always paying attention.
24:08It's an easy group to like.
24:10That's probably the best way I can put it.
24:13You're in first place right now, 18 and 10.
24:16You're missing what I thought were your two best pitchers in Green and Lodolo.
24:22How are they actually doing this?
24:24Well, they're competing like crazy, which is good.
24:28And you're right.
24:28We do miss those two guys.
24:30Our bullpen, our front office did a really good job of making our bullpen deeper.
24:36So it's allowed us to stay in games.
24:39Last year, if we got to extra innings, we kind of ran out of pitching and we end up losing.
24:43And this year, at least we have a chance to keep games going or stay in them.
24:48And we've been we've played cleaner baseball, which is one of our biggest challenges coming
24:54into the year.
24:55And it's given us chances to win those games, which is good.
24:58And then when somebody does something special and like a low hitting up, you know, a two
25:02out, two run home run to win a game.
25:04Those don't happen all the time.
25:06But man, when they do, it sure helps.
25:08You know, Tito, John, John mentioned the names Lodolo and Green.
25:11Again, from a distance, it feels like your best pathway to be special this year is maybe
25:16to get to your idealized young rotation.
25:19Like you have so many talented young starters, you know, Burns, Abbott, Louder.
25:25Can you give us an update?
25:26I know I believe that Lodolo threw a rehab recently and it was a blister issue.
25:33Is he close to coming back and do you forecast Green, maybe second half?
25:38Give us an idea when you think you're getting these guys.
25:40Sure.
25:41Yeah.
25:41Nick, Nick Lodolo threw five innings in Dayton the other day, and I think he ended up throwing
25:4651 pitches.
25:47He had to go out in the bullpen and finish, which is a good thing.
25:51He'll he'll pitch again, another rehab start, and then we'll kind of see where he's at.
25:57The good news is he's on his way.
26:00That's really good because we need him.
26:02So Hunter Green is out in Arizona.
26:06He started his throwing program last week.
26:09I think he's set to start to get off the mound.
26:12I think it's May 20th, which probably puts him somewhere maybe in the all-star break ish
26:19and getting him back because he's the guy that when he goes out there, he can give you he
26:23can match up against anybody and he can throw a shutout.
26:26And so, you know, again, nobody has a crystal ball because, you know, things can change so
26:32quickly.
26:32But getting them back will really, really help us.
26:36You know, we don't get to see L.A.
26:38De La Cruz every day.
26:39How good can this guy be?
26:42And that's his that's one of the challenges he has to fight is he everybody always talks
26:48about because of his skill set, not everything he can do.
26:50You know, they always wonder how good he's going to be.
26:53And my only message to him has been, hey, in the course of playing the game right, your
27:00skills are going to show through.
27:01You know, we don't just run to run.
27:03We run because we want it to help us win a game.
27:07He's really paid attention to detail.
27:09It's like a lot of young, good players.
27:11As they get repetitions, they mature and they grow up and they grow up on the field.
27:16And you're starting to see that with him.
27:17On the subject of precocious, I mean, we saw a little Sal Stewart last year and it was interesting.
27:23It's a little more than interesting this year.
27:25I mean, him and Nolan McClain might have a really interesting rookie of the year competition.
27:29Heck, he might throw himself into the MVP competition if this is what he's going to be.
27:34Give us some insight into Sal Stewart.
27:36You know, you said a good word, precocious.
27:39That's a really good adjective.
27:41He's a wonderful kid, man.
27:42He's not boring.
27:44I've been saying since last year what a polished young hitter he is.
27:49And I think I need to take the word young out.
27:52I think he's just a polished hitter.
27:53He's kind of a throwback in that he uses, you know, line to line.
27:58And he doesn't strike out a ton.
28:00He'll fight off tough pitches and earn a good pitch.
28:03And then when he gets it, he can really do something with it.
28:06He had a home run to left field the other day in his first at bat, almost one-handed.
28:11And a lot of hitters, if they would have done that and stayed through it as well as he did,
28:15they might have got a base hit to left field.
28:17And he hit the ball out of the ballpark.
28:19He's kind of a special hitter.
28:21And, again, I know the league's trying to make adjustments, and he'll have to make adjustments back.
28:25But that's the one good thing is I think he's going to be able to make any adjustment he needs
28:30to because he's that good a hitter.
28:31You know, this managing job is very tough, and it can be very temporary, as we saw again this week.
28:39How is your health?
28:40And you took a year off to try to – obviously, it's working.
28:46You seem to be doing well.
28:47How is your health, and why did you want to do this still?
28:52You know, I – and I did.
28:54I thought I was retiring.
28:55I really had no expectation of coming back.
28:59I felt at the end in Cleveland, and I think I probably told you this, guys,
29:02that I didn't think I was doing my job appropriately.
29:06And it kind of bothered me.
29:08And, you know, when you're so beat up physically, it kind of starts to beat you up mentally.
29:13And I was getting frustrated, and I went home, and I had a wonderful year.
29:18I mean, I really did, man.
29:19I golfed.
29:19I was a grandpa.
29:20I did stuff I'd never done.
29:22And then when Nick called me, I just said, you know, we can talk, but I really didn't know what
29:28to think of it.
29:29And, shoot, they flew out to my house the next day, and I was sitting in my rocking chair while
29:34we talked.
29:35And we were probably 20 minutes into the conversation, and I caught myself saying, well, we could do this.
29:40We could – and I'm going, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down.
29:43And, shoot, by the next day, you know, I was the manager.
29:47But – and I know I'm not the smartest guy in the room, and I never will be.
29:50But I think I did it for the right reasons.
29:53Like, the same reasons I wanted to go to Cleveland were the same reasons I was so comfortable coming here.
29:58It's because of the people.
29:59And I love that about them.
30:01Like, when stuff goes wrong, and it does, it's not who screwed it up.
30:05It's like, how are we going to make it better?
30:07And I get a big kick out of going through stuff, trying to figure stuff out with people that I
30:12enjoy and people I respect, and we certainly have that here.
30:15You know, Tito, John mentioned, you know, it's already open season on managers.
30:19We had one pretty accomplished one, won a championship, lose a job four weeks into the season.
30:27We're living in a town where there's a guy on thin ice already with Carlos Mendoza, Rob Thompson, who's gone
30:33to a World Series.
30:34Maybe Joe was by a few others.
30:36I wonder what you think about this little patience for people in your role.
30:43Like, if you're going to do it four weeks into the season, why the hell didn't you just do it
30:47at the end of last year is kind of like how I feel about it a little.
30:50But I wonder how you feel about it.
30:53Well, yeah, I don't know.
30:54It's probably different.
30:56I mean, you never want to see somebody lose their job just because, you know, it just doesn't feel good
31:01ever.
31:01And most of these guys are pretty good friends of mine, like, you know, Cora's one of my favorite people
31:06in the world.
31:07It does happen, unfortunately, and it's part of the job, and you kind of know that going in.
31:13I think, again, that's why I think when you align yourself with people that you care about and respect and
31:19know will have your back, it's nice to know you can go through a tough period.
31:23And not necessarily people are just going to point fingers and say, well, it had to be you, so we
31:28got to have a sacrificial lamb.
31:29Sometimes the best way to go about it is figuring things out together, and that's how I feel here, and
31:34I'm glad about that because I don't know if I want to be in that situation.
31:38You know, you've managed in two of the biggest and, in my mind, craziest markets, and you've also managed in
31:43two relatively small markets.
31:44Tell me about Boston.
31:45I have an idea how it's different, but what makes Boston different?
31:49And it does seem different, even to us in New York.
31:52It is.
31:53A lot of people compare it to New York, but it's not.
31:56You know, New York's so big, and Boston's more like a town, and everybody knows everything.
32:02Like, when you call up a kid from AAA, they already know who he is, and they're dying to love
32:07their team, but you better produce.
32:12And there's just so much passion, so much interest that there's some nights when the manager goes home with a
32:20headache.
32:20That's just the way that it is.
32:21It's a great place to be a part of baseball, but it's not the easiest place to be a part
32:26of baseball.
32:27Do you think it's impossible to have stability there?
32:32Because there's been a lot of successful GMs, there's been a lot of successful managers, and pretty much none of
32:38them have had durability, like the ability to stay around for a long time.
32:43Is it just, is it an ownership thing?
32:45Is it a town thing?
32:46Is it wearing in that kind of market?
32:48I just wonder what you think it is there.
32:50I'm not sure.
32:51It may be all of the above.
32:52Like I said, there's so much interest there, and there's so much fan interest, and so much media interest that
32:56sometimes, I mean, that's the one place where, you know, I don't think they have the ability to say, well,
33:03he didn't do it good, but we're going to do, you know, it's always, somebody has to pay a price
33:06there.
33:07And it's just kind of always, it's been that way for a long time.
33:11I don't know if it's just ever going to be one thing, though.
33:13There's a lot of things.
33:14But you know what?
33:15I mean, I was there for eight years.
33:18In baseball years, that's a long time.
33:20And same thing with Cora.
33:22So I'm not sure.
33:23It's just the way our game is, and it's different in every town, and I think you have to realize
33:28that.
33:29You know, you had the longest tenure in Boston for a manager since Joe Cronin.
33:33I think, would you have eight or nine years, something like that, and Cora was approaching that.
33:37He didn't quite get to where you were.
33:38You won two championships, which helps you stay for nearly a decade.
33:43So you know more about this than anybody, and I know you're a diplomatic fellow, but I'm going to ask
33:47you anyway.
33:48This is a regime, an ownership regime that's won four World Series, two of them with you at the helm,
33:53but they've also finished in last place six times.
33:56You know the fans are pretty upset right now, and they're 12th in payroll, which isn't really like them because
34:01they're certainly in the top three or four in revenue.
34:04What do you think's going on there?
34:06How is your tenure there in terms of the ownership and the whole regime, and do you have any thoughts
34:13on this at this point?
34:15Well, I probably do need to tend to be a little diplomatic, but I am glad.
34:22I think, and I might be wrong, I think 86 games was the least games we won there, and I'm
34:29glad because if it had been lower, I probably would have been gone before.
34:33That just wasn't tolerated.
34:36You know, it's a different time, though.
34:38We had a good, you know, Theo's might be the smartest guy I've ever been around.
34:42And when you talk about people multitasking, Theo didn't do two things at once.
34:48He did 10.
34:49And you better try to keep up.
34:50But I used to marvel at just, you know, how his brain would work and how he could wrap himself
34:55around 18 different things at once and do them better than everybody else.
34:59So I knew I was with the smartest guy, and I always appreciated that part of it.
35:03You know, Tito, I wonder if I could tap into, again, you know, you're self-effacing, but we do mean
35:08to be flattering.
35:09You're one of the greatest managers in the history of this sport.
35:12The championships, all the wins, as John pointed out, in tough places.
35:17Four weeks ago, we thought the Mets were going to be a pretty good team.
35:20Then again, we also probably thought they were going to beat out the Cincinnati Reds last year.
35:24That didn't happen.
35:25Then four weeks later, they're 10 under already, and the managers on thin ice.
35:32I just wonder, as somebody who's probably gone through everything you could go through in that seat, at a time
35:37like this, what does a manager have to do when kind of like the vultures are circling, it's not going
35:44well, but you probably think it is a better team than it's played so far?
35:49Well, and that, I think, managers and coaches, you really earn your stripes, not when guys are going well, because
35:55that's easy.
35:56You know, you pat them on the back, but when things aren't going well, that's when you earn your stripes.
36:01And I think you just have to stay by what you live by.
36:05And everybody's different, and that's part of what makes our game so special.
36:09But I've always felt like if you put the players and the organization first, and you put yourself a distant
36:16last, that your situation will take care of itself.
36:20And shoot, I felt like that in South Bend and Birmingham and in Philadelphia, and now it's 40 years later,
36:26and I still feel that way.
36:27I just think it's the way to, you know, as a manager, you've got to put everybody else's feelings ahead
36:34of yourself.
36:35And that's what managing is, I think.
36:37Now, you may be treated differently than other managers because you are so accomplished, and you won't say it.
36:43I mean, you're, you know, a star of the show at the very least, if not the star of the
36:48show.
36:48But how generally, from your observation, has the manager job changed over your tenure?
36:55It's been decades now that you've been in.
36:57Oh, my goodness.
36:58You guys don't have enough time.
37:00I mean, shoot, when I got hired by the Phillies, Lee Thomas was the general manager, Ed Wade was the
37:05assistant general manager, and Nancy Nesnodal was their, like, secretary, whatever.
37:10You know, like, that was it.
37:12I mean, you know, Lee would poke his head down after a game and say, you okay, babe?
37:17And because we didn't win very often.
37:18And then when he got let go, Ed Wade took over.
37:21Or, you know, now there are, you know, the baseball operations department are becoming huge.
37:27And it's not a bad thing at all.
37:28It's just, but there's a lot of voices.
37:31You know, there's an analytics department.
37:33And what I think you have to be kind of wary of is if there's 50 or 100 people up
37:39there and everybody has an opinion and it's different, it can kind of overwhelm the manager.
37:46Because everybody, you know, everybody's coming to the manager from here, from here, from on, you know, and if you're
37:51getting that many opinions, like I said, it can kind of muddy the waters a little bit.
37:56So I think you've got to learn how to listen, what to listen, what to, you know, and also, you
38:02know, be somewhat diplomatic because we all care.
38:05We all want the same thing.
38:07We just all want it sometimes in different ways.
38:09A last question for me, and I do think you are the smartest guy in the room, even if you'll
38:13deny it every time I say that.
38:16But Michael Jordan, you managed him in the minors.
38:19Give me a scouting report.
38:20I'll tell you what, guys, and I tell everybody this when you're in the minor leagues, you've got to get
38:25over 1,000 at-bats before you can start to say somebody should or shouldn't be in the major leagues.
38:31I found out the hard way.
38:33When you tell him no, he will find a way to make the answer be yes.
38:38And I firmly believe that if he would, if he just decided to stay in the game, he'd have found
38:44his way to the major leagues.
38:46I mean, this is a guy that hadn't played since high school, and I don't know how good he was
38:50really in high school.
38:52Stole 30 bases.
38:53He drove in 50, goes out to the fall league and starts to get better.
38:58He is the ultimate competitor.
39:00I mean, I saw this guy break ping-pong paddles, tennis rackets, golf clubs.
39:05I mean, but I'll tell you what was really cool.
39:09He respected the game so much, and that made it so easy to be patient with him in baseball because,
39:17you know, I explained to him when he came there.
39:19I said, hey, man, this is how much these guys are making or how much they're not making, and this
39:24is how many years they've already played to get here.
39:26And he was so respectful of that that that's why it worked so well.
39:29Tito, as a way to wrap this up, I wonder if I could bring it back to something we talked
39:33about at the beginning, your team and your division.
39:36I mentioned that all five are over 500 as we finish the first month of the year.
39:41Do you think that this is, you know, it's not a division we usually talk about.
39:45You know, we're talking usually about coastal divisions, west and especially the two in the east.
39:51Is this division as strong?
39:54So why?
39:56Well, to answer your question, or to try to answer your question, when I was in the process of getting
40:00hired here, you know, last year, the one thing I thought was, well, if I go to the central, I
40:05like our pitching.
40:07And you don't have the coasts that are spending this outrageous money.
40:11You know, I look up a year later, and like you said, everybody's over 500 playing great baseball.
40:16We've already seen the Pirates.
40:18They have arms that are just, you know, they just keep coming at you.
40:21And we know who the Cubs are, and the Brewers just keep finding ways to not be good, but to
40:28be great.
40:31It's tough.
40:32I think it's good for baseball.
40:35I don't think it's easy for the Reds to be as good as we want to be, but I think
40:38it's really good for baseball.
40:39Well, Tito, I'm sure the Reds will be okay.
40:43Secret, they have a really good manager.
40:45I hear from John Heyman, he's probably going to Cooperstown.
40:48I'll trust him on that.
40:49I think that's right.
40:51We're happy on the way there he stopped on the show.
40:53We always appreciate you joining us, Tito.
40:56Thank you so much.
40:56Stay healthy and have a great year.
40:58Oh, guys, thanks.
40:59I enjoyed it.
40:59You guys have a good week, okay?
41:01Thanks, Tito.
41:08John and I, of course, thank Tito Francona for joining us on the show.
41:11John, hit or error?
41:13Yeah, I'm going to give a hit.
41:14We had a lot of negativity early in the show talking about the Mets.
41:17I'm going to give it to a guy who was on our show, was it last week, very recently, and
41:21he didn't jinx them.
41:22They're still doing well, the Braves.
41:24Walt Weiss is doing a terrific job with the Braves.
41:28He was the right guy.
41:29It didn't look for a while like he was going to get the job.
41:32I don't know whether they were sending out misdirections or what, but we were seeing stories that it would have
41:37been better if he did this or that or whatever, but they picked the right guy.
41:40I'm glad he got a second chance.
41:42Colorado was not a good chance there, and he's doing a fantastic job.
41:48So a big hit for Walt Weiss.
41:50It's a good one.
41:50You know he's obviously a favorite of the show.
41:54So, John, can I give a hit to the Dodgers, which feels like giving the richest man in the world
42:00some more money?
42:00What would scare me if I was the rest of the sport is Justin Robleski is leading the National League
42:08in ERA.
42:11Pahez and Muncy, and why am I blanking on the backup catcher, the youngster who's doing –
42:17Rushing.
42:17Rushing, Dalton Rushing.
42:19They're 1-2-3 in offensive war and war on a team that has Otani, Betts, Freeman, and Will Smith.
42:27Snell is still to come.
42:30They have really gotten nothing yet from Diaz, who they won't for months now, or Tucker, who had a game
42:36-winning RBI, walk-off RBI yesterday as we're speaking.
42:40They're a machine, and like Andy Pahez, who you and I watched go 4-44 in the postseason last year,
42:47if the season were frozen today, might be the National League MVP.
42:53They have Tyler Glass now, might be their best starter right now, and you know that's going to be probably
43:00Yamamoto and Otani and Snell by the time this is all done, probably.
43:05It started good, and it's getting kind of a little more scary, just how deep and talented and confident they
43:14are with the promise of a little more with Betts and Snell not even playing to come.
43:19It's going to take a whole sport to keep them down.
43:22It's amazing.
43:23I mean, Robleski just said, I'd like to try starting, and now he's one of the best pitchers in the
43:28league, at least so far he is.
43:30It's pretty amazing to watch.
43:32They are a juggernaut.
43:33I don't think it's bad for the sport to have a great team, and good for them, top to bottom.
43:38Mark Walter, Friedman, Dave Roberts, they do an amazing job.
43:43You're absolutely right.
43:45Well, the other people who do amazing jobs are Tommy Hogan and Samantha Otona, who kind of make us look
43:50good and sound good, John, which is nearly impossible.
43:53That's tougher than winning 100 games in the National League West.
43:56Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to a podcast, please follow us, rate and review us.
44:01It does help the show.
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