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00:00John, we had somebody leave the Mets, and it wasn't a good day for that organization.
00:05Edwin Diaz is now a Dodger.
00:07Yeah, I mean, very bad day, really bad.
00:10I mean, I don't see why and how this happened.
00:13This is a tremendous amount of money in the grand scheme of things.
00:17They signed Juan Soto for 10 times this amount of money last winter.
00:22I'm not sure what's going on with him, but we're going to dive into it today.
00:25And I think we have no choice but to really pull out the hammer on the Mets.
00:31They deserve it.
00:33Yeah, we're going to break down the Diaz signing.
00:35We'll talk about Kyle Schwarber going back to the Phillies.
00:39Jeff Kent recently got in the Hall of Fame.
00:41Jason Stark, our friend, was on that committee.
00:44We have the larger ballot as well.
00:46We'll talk about all of that.
00:48We'll play hit and error at the end if you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John.
00:55John, you know, we were blown up a little bit yesterday in very quick succession.
01:03News broke that Kyle Schwarber was going back to the Phillies five years, $150 million.
01:10And then right after that news broke that Edwin Diaz was leaving the Mets to go to the Dodgers.
01:18Three years, $69 million.
01:20Some deferrals in there that bring down the actual current value of it.
01:23But, John, it was seismic, both of them.
01:27But I think we all thought the Mets would do what they had to do in the end to keep Edwin Diaz for relative pennies,
01:35especially for a team owned by Steve Cohen.
01:39They let one of the few bright spots from a 2025 season, an elite closer,
01:45and a fan favorite at a time where there's not many fans who are happy with the team,
01:52go to the organization that Steve Cohen said he wanted to model his after.
01:57He was not the mammoth owner here.
02:02This guy got away.
02:03Yeah, it's a real shame for the Mets and the Mets fans.
02:08This is a great guy, great personality, and one of the best closers in baseball.
02:12It is a real loss.
02:13I'm not sure how they make up for it.
02:15I know they're talking about Robert Suarez and two Robert Suarez.
02:18He's a very good closer.
02:20He is an Edwin Diaz.
02:21He also doesn't have that song that I saw our back page, which was great today.
02:25The music died.
02:27Great back page.
02:28Terrible day for the Mets.
02:29You know, it doesn't look good that they came in a few million short.
02:34It doesn't make sense for the Mets.
02:37I'm wondering, even if they'd come up to three million or five, even if they had five million,
02:41does he still go to the Dodgers?
02:43I mean, there is a big alert of being on the Dodgers at this point.
02:47And, you know, is it because the Dodgers are great, or did the Mets mishandle this in some way?
02:52I don't know.
02:52I'd seen it out there that he wasn't thrilled that he wasn't contacted when they did sign Devin Williams.
02:58You know, he's a free agent.
03:00You know, would have been preferable.
03:01I guess so.
03:02I mean, I don't think that's the normal course of action.
03:04But, you know, they needed to do what they could to keep this guy on the team.
03:08And this is not an outrageous sum for him, right?
03:11I think I picked four for 80.
03:13So this is fairly comparable, right?
03:15Three for 70 or 69.
03:18You know, to me, you know, if he's going to get away, it's going to be someone who's paying 125 million or something.
03:25This is a guy they needed to keep.
03:27And if Devin Williams is the closer, that's not good.
03:30He was not a good closer with the Yankees last year.
03:33Yeah, you know, you lost on the field and off the field.
03:37The Mets didn't have a great clubhouse last year.
03:40It was never Edwin Diaz's fault.
03:42As you know, he is an upbeat, positive guy.
03:46And on his worst days, he's a very accountable guy.
03:49I don't think that Devin Williams could match him in either forum.
03:54And the Mets have gone there.
03:56To your point, look, the move went down on, what, December 9th?
03:59Opening day is March 26th.
04:01It's a long way away.
04:02To some coincidence, it was a year and a day after the Mets signed Juan Soto away from the Yankees.
04:09As we know, the Yankees pivoted strong and put together a very, very good team after losing Juan Soto.
04:15So we know it's possible.
04:16But the Mets are really starting.
04:19You know, it's a point that you've hammered home a lot, John.
04:21They have a lot of work to do.
04:23You know, the Yankees, it wouldn't be a great team, but they could open the season tomorrow.
04:27You know, they've got five starters.
04:29They've got a bullpen.
04:29They've got a player in every position.
04:31You know, that team would do some winning.
04:33The Mets, you know, they need like a whole bullpen still.
04:38I guess they could use the starting pitching they have, but they want one more.
04:43They're down two outfielders.
04:45Alonzo's a free agent.
04:46Either they have to re-sign him or in a market where it's impossible to find righty power,
04:51they've got to find some righty power.
04:53And so letting something out the door that was a strength and you could have done strength
04:58on strength.
04:58You know, if you are a Devin Williams fan, I'm not sure either of us line up in that big
05:03queue.
05:04Okay, so you have Diaz and Devin Williams.
05:08I wouldn't have even stopped there.
05:09Now, by not being proactive, aggressive, more alluring, you've lost this player.
05:18To me, Johnny, and you lost it to the Dodgers.
05:22The Dodgers who the team, ultimately, everyone is chasing.
05:25And I know this.
05:26I mean, I trust the people I spoke to.
05:28The Dodgers just thought the Mets were going to beat them at some point.
05:31They were like, they were like, we're going to make an aggressive three-year offer at a
05:34time when the agency was still saying, nah, it's probably going to take five to do this.
05:38And they said, okay, we'll stick on three.
05:40And then, like, at some point in the 72 hours before the deal, they said, okay, let's talk
05:45about that three-year deal.
05:47And they were like, okay, so the Mets probably were told this also.
05:50They're just going to beat our three-year deal, but let's keep doing it.
05:53They tried to acquire Diaz along the way multiple times.
05:56They love the player.
05:57And the Dodgers, it wasn't me and you just, I think the Dodgers were a little blown away
06:03in the 48 hours leading up to it.
06:06Like, do we actually, he's going to leave New York?
06:09And so I didn't think with the fait accompli that he would go coast to coast.
06:13The Mets kind of let it happen.
06:15Well, I mean, the Dodgers should understand players want to go there.
06:20So I, you know, good for them.
06:22They do an amazing job and they've got money to spend.
06:25Obviously, they owe Tani's the gift that keeps on giving.
06:28You talked about the clubhouse and I want to get into that because I really don't get
06:32what's going on in the clubhouse.
06:33They say, you know, they're not worried about the clubhouse publicly.
06:37And the moves they're making kind of show that.
06:40Talk about an upbeat guy.
06:41Now they've lost out of the four most upbeat guys.
06:45And we're both in that clubhouse a lot.
06:46The four most upbeat guys, the only guy remaining is Lindor, right?
06:50And Marte is a free agent.
06:52Nimmo, they've traded.
06:53Diaz, they've lost.
06:55You know, maybe they really aren't worried about the clubhouse.
06:58Maybe it is all about metrics.
06:59I don't know.
06:59I find that bizarre if they really don't think about the clubhouse at all.
07:03Or maybe they think this is a way to improve the winning aspect of the clubhouse.
07:08I mean, to me, I think it's better if everybody's happier.
07:11And, you know, right now you've got some guys who exactly are not bon vivants in that clubhouse.
07:17You know, I'm concerned about that as well.
07:19But obviously the big picture is they get a lot of holes too.
07:23Yeah.
07:23You know, John, their actions are not meeting their words either publicly to us.
07:28You know, like we want a good clubhouse.
07:30But I've also been told by player representatives that they've mentioned that they had a clubhouse dynamic issue last year.
07:38And so, again, the trade of Edwin Diaz for Devin Williams, if that's an area, again, on the field, if you told me we have to constantly get three outs during the course of the season, I'll take Edwin Diaz.
07:51And if you told me we have to make sure the clubhouse is strong, I'll take Edwin Diaz in that matchup.
08:00And, again, you could have had them both and just said it's going to – see, to me, John, it's going to be very hard for them if Scooble isn't really getting traded.
08:09It's going to be very hard to get an ace, somebody who's so clearly a number one starter in this.
08:17To me, Freddy Peralta is like a super number two.
08:20Maybe Ranger Suarez is a super number two.
08:23That's who those kind of players are.
08:26So I would have made sure I have the best bullpen I could possibly have.
08:31And money shouldn't ever be the issue for this organization with Steve Cohen owning it.
08:36And you have the inside track on keeping Diaz and forming as close to a super bullpen as you could do to protect the rotation.
08:45And I just – again, I'm floored that if you – John, I think you said this at the beginning, so I hate to be repetitive, but I thought it was maybe the point of all points.
08:56If the Mets said, hey, we have a policy on three years for reliever in their 30s or whatever, and they lost to a team that gave them five years,
09:05I would go, okay, maybe even four years.
09:09But to lose in the same year bucket by a million-ish a year of deferred money seems impossible to me for a player you need.
09:19Yeah.
09:20Yeah, you're having trouble with the negotiation.
09:24I'm having trouble with the clubhouse.
09:25I'm glad that he's recognizing in talks to other teams that there is a clubhouse issue.
09:30But not only do they need to do something in terms of filling that clubhouse with the right personalities,
09:37you know, as Mike Puma wrote, you know, they're two best players, and they've got 20 years combined remaining with the team,
09:45six years for Lindor and 14 years for Soto.
09:49I mean, these guys, they hardly speak.
09:52You know, I'm glad that Mike Puma wrote it.
09:54I think everybody in that clubhouse noticed it.
09:57And I'm glad it's out there.
09:59But, I mean, they need to do something about that as well.
10:02You know, they're not acting.
10:04They're acting like what they're telling us, which is that they're not concerned about the clubhouse.
10:08You know, and I'm not shocked.
10:11You know, they are analytics guys.
10:13They're metrically oriented.
10:16It doesn't shock me.
10:17But I think it's interesting what you said, that they are telling other teams.
10:20They are concerned.
10:21Oh, other agents.
10:22It's okay, that they're concerned about the clubhouse.
10:24Well, I mean, you know, you can say anything you want to the media, but, you know, maybe I'm wrong.
10:31But I think they're probably telling the agents what they're feeling, or I don't know.
10:36Maybe they're just trying to suck up to those clients.
10:40Is that possible?
10:41I don't know.
10:41You know, we want to have a great clubhouse.
10:43Your guy's the guy for us.
10:45You know, I don't know.
10:46But I am concerned about that.
10:48If they're not concerned, I'm concerned about their clubhouse.
10:51Yeah.
10:51On the subject of clubhouse, John, why don't we finish out the segment?
10:56There's hardly any better clubhouse guy than Kyle Schwarber.
11:01It was, and the Mets had some interest in him as well, which would have been, winning that kind of signing would have been an addressing of that, of both an on-field and off-field matter for them.
11:13Instead, part of the Mets' bad day is the team that won their division last year just got back their number one target at a time where the Mets did not get back theirs, depending on who you think their number one internal target is, Alonzo Adiaz.
11:27And, of course, Alonzo's still out there.
11:30John, Kyle Schwarber, 50-plus homers, seems to be aging very well, but is obviously going to play at 33 to 37 on this contract.
11:39What do you think at five years, 150 for the Phillies?
11:42Well, I mean, that made sense.
11:43We felt, I think everybody did, and we wrote that that was the likely outcome, even though the Mets had checked in, and several other teams, and certainly the Orioles, as you mentioned, were aggressive at five years, 150.
11:55I guess that's what pushed it up, and obviously gave a chance to the Phillies to match it, and they did that.
12:01Not a surprise, John Middleton, Dave Dombrowski, they want to make sure they've got a great team, and they have had a great team for many years.
12:09You know, it's a perennial playoff team, so it would have been hard for them to go, even though they're going to a hometown team, the Reds.
12:14Give them credit for sticking in there and also offering the five years, but, you know, it's difficult to go to a small market team like that.
12:22You don't know that they're going to win every single year, as you suspect that the Phillies do.
12:26The thing that's amazing to me about, and he does have a great clubhouse reputation, is the trend of his career.
12:33At 32 years old, he's twice as valuable as he was at 28 years old, and at 28 years old, he was 10 times more valuable than he was at 25 years old, or 26 years old, whenever the Cubs let him go.
12:45So, it's an unusual arc, and give him credit for, obviously, putting in the work and becoming a better player.
12:5456 home runs last year, just an amazing season.
12:58I think the deal was pretty logical.
13:00I had 140, 4 for 140 as the prediction, so this is pretty comparable to that.
13:06You know, the Phillies do what they need to do.
13:08You know, I mean, today, it feels like a contrast to the Mets, but we'll see.
13:14A lot of time to go.
13:15As David Stearns mentioned, there are a lot of great players still on the board.
13:19At this point, I don't see an alternative to Alonzo.
13:22The feeling I get right now is not great around the Mets and Alonzo.
13:26You know, obviously, these situations are fluid.
13:29These things can change.
13:30You never know.
13:31Excuse me.
13:32You never know.
13:33And, yeah, I'm getting not a good feeling.
13:37And, you know, I'm not saying he's not going to stay with the Mets, you know, but he did
13:42come here to this hotel room that we see in the background, if you're watching, visited
13:47with Boston, visited with Baltimore, visited with some other teams.
13:50I don't know that it's the Mets, not that they need to visit with him again, but they
13:55need to be aggressive and bring him back.
13:57I mean, he is actually a better fit than Schwarber.
14:00He is a first baseman.
14:02He is a right-handed batter.
14:04I get that Schwarber had a better year last year.
14:08You know, you're not going to beat 56 home runs, but Alonzo had a pretty good year as
14:12well and hit in the clutch.
14:14And if they lose Alonzo, I just don't know what the reaction could be with the fans.
14:19Nimmo, Diaz, and Alonzo gone.
14:22And now you've got two great players left who don't talk to each other.
14:25That's not good.
14:26Yeah, you know, maybe this is the rip the bandage off, off season for David Stearns.
14:32In other words, it's already hurt so much with Diaz.
14:35It's like it would just be on top of that to let Alonzo go.
14:39John, I think the biggest point there is what the specific skill set that he excels at, which
14:46is right-hand power, is very hard to find in the sport and therefore puts pressure on
14:54the Mets.
14:55How do you, you know, like I always encourage fans, oftentimes when I'm working with Ryan
15:00Sampson and doing the Pinstripe Post webcast, because like Ryan's a Yankee fan and he'll
15:06say something like, oh, they need to get a X.
15:10And I will go, where is the X store located?
15:13Like, where's the third base store?
15:15Where's the left?
15:15Like, where's the right-hand power store?
15:18Like, I encourage fans, go look at right-hand power in the sport.
15:22It is hard to find.
15:25Now it's harder to find the available right-hand power.
15:31Do you, obviously it's not at the level of Alonzo, but do you try to trade for Quetel Marte
15:37to, you know, help you in this area?
15:40Is, like, Akimoto, the Japanese free agent, I believe is a right-hand hitter, is he a guy
15:48you think projects well to the major leagues?
15:51Anyway, it's obviously the Mets have a lot of shopping to do still this offseason.
15:59We have to find out that outcome on Pete Alonzo.
16:02One of the things we did find out the outcome of, John, is Jeff Kent went in on the Special
16:07Errors Committee, we both have our Hall of Fame ballots that have to be in by the end
16:12of the month.
16:12I don't know if you've sent yours yet, but they have to be in by the end of the month.
16:16Somebody who was on the Special Errors Committee and somebody who knows Hall of Fame voting and
16:22the candidacies better than just about anyone is our friend and colleague, Jason Stark, and
16:26he joins us next on the show.
16:33John and I are joined by a friend, a colleague at MLB Network.
16:37He works at The Athletic.
16:38He does an excellent podcast of his own with Doug Glanville, Starkville, and he's one of
16:44the foremost experts on the Hall of Fame.
16:47Anybody who cares, certainly between now and Election Day, should go to The Athletic and
16:52read his thorough writing on candidates and everything else.
17:00Jason Stark, thank you for joining us on the show.
17:02It's great to be with you guys.
17:04Try to go easy on me, okay?
17:06We will.
17:07No promises.
17:08And let's have transparency here.
17:10Jason mentions to go easy.
17:11Jason was a member of the Contemporary Errors Baseball Committee, player's main contribution,
17:211980s onward.
17:23There were eight players on that ballot.
17:25That's the one that Jeff Kent got elected to the Hall of Fame, and only Jeff Kent had caused
17:32a level of controversy.
17:33It's why we wanted Jason on.
17:35But the exchange when you're on that committee is there's a certain no murder to it, right?
17:40Like the mafia.
17:41Good word, Joel.
17:43Like you can't, there's certain things you can't speak about that happen in that room
17:49and how you voted.
17:51So the way I want to open this up, Jason, is there is, people know our larger committee,
17:56right?
17:57That all three of us are part of.
17:58Of the hundreds, we'll vote by the end of this month, and we'll know by the third or
18:03so week in January who's elected into the Hall of Fame by the Baseball Writers Association.
18:08Tell us about the function, how it works with those 16 people to get to Jeff Kent.
18:15Yeah, I apologize that I can't tell you specifically about what happened in the room and how we voted.
18:22I honestly don't even know how anybody else in the room voted.
18:25But I can tell you that I've done this a couple times now.
18:29I consider it to be an incredible honor.
18:32As both of you know, I love the Hall of Fame.
18:35I care about the Hall of Fame.
18:37I understand the impact on lives and on baseball fans of voting for the Hall of Fame.
18:42And so I take that role going into that room as a member of that committee extremely seriously
18:49and prepare as thoroughly as you can imagine.
18:53And so the makeup of the committee, at least this year, was nearly half was players.
18:59There were seven Hall of Fame players in the room.
19:03Then we had six longtime Major League executives in the room, plus myself,
19:10my friend and co-worker at The Athletic, Tyler Kepner, and Steve Hurt,
19:15who is currently with Stats, formerly with the Elias Sports Bureau,
19:21one of the foremost baseball historians on earth.
19:25He's now done this 14 times.
19:28And so let me try to tell you how I consider my role in that group.
19:35I look at things obviously different than not just other Hall of Fame voters,
19:41but obviously different than how players and executives look at the Hall of Fame.
19:47And so I consider my job to frame the case for each player.
19:52We consider the eight players in the ballot alphabetically.
19:56You know, a name gets thrown out there, and basically people look at us, me and Steve and Tyler.
20:02And so we start talking and try to frame the case, the historic impact of that player.
20:08And then my favorite part of being on those committees is to then look at those Hall of Fame players and say,
20:15this is why I think we as writers never elected this player.
20:22What did you guys see?
20:24And, I mean, some of the perspective that you get back is incredible, Joel.
20:31I love that part of it.
20:33We have executives in the room.
20:34You can say to those executives, when you were a GM and this guy was playing, how did you look at him?
20:44We could say, who would you have rather had in your team, this candidate or that candidate?
20:50And that's really how we get there.
20:52And it honestly is a fantastic experience in terms of all of that.
20:59I, you know, I berated you in the hallway.
21:02I apologize for that because I was dissatisfied with the result.
21:06Although I did vote for Jeff Kent ultimately in the last several years.
21:09So I get it.
21:10I understand that.
21:11But certainly in New York, we were very disappointed that Don Mattingly didn't make it.
21:17A guy I voted for every single time.
21:18Same with I voted for Murphy every single time that he was on the ballot as well.
21:22So how do you feel?
21:24Because, you know, we heard when it was announced at MLB Network, you could even hear groans in, I felt bad for Jeff Kent for the first time in my life.
21:33But, you know, in the lobby, even the lobby, they're not all New Yorkers.
21:37I know we're in Florida, so many New Yorkers probably.
21:39But how did you feel about the final result?
21:43Were you dissatisfied too?
21:45Because I know you voted for several of those players.
21:47Yeah, you know, I can't really comment too specifically about Jeff Kent and whether even I voted for him in the room.
21:57But I mean, the fact there was only one, too.
22:01Right.
22:01So let me try to do this this way.
22:05First off, I voted for Jeff Kent for 10 years, too.
22:08I look at him as a historically significant player in his position.
22:13You know, he was the guy who hit more home runs than any second baseman who ever played baseball,
22:20driven more runs than any second baseman who ever played baseball, or at least since RBIs became an official stat.
22:26He has the highest slugging percentage of any second baseman in the last hundred years.
22:31I've written all of this a million times.
22:33And, you know, it was a big part of winning him and Barry Bonds on those teams in San Francisco.
22:39So. So. Jeff Kent had enough historical impact as a player that, you know, I don't I know there's a lot of furor.
22:51I don't think the furor should be that we elected Jeff Kent, as I interpreted.
22:55It's much the way you just described it, John.
22:57The frustration out there is why only Jeff Kent, why Jeff Kent, not Barry Bonds, for that matter, why Jeff Kent and not the feel good Hall of Fame stories we could have written with Murphy and Mattingly.
23:13I completely understand the frustration. And I wish I could tell you more about what happened in the room and why Jeff Kent got elected and other guys didn't.
23:28What I would suggest is what I've told everybody.
23:31Look at the way we vote and try to think it through and think about how the people in that room process that ballot.
23:40An incredibly loaded ballot where you could easily make a case for all eight players on it.
23:46And we only had three spots. Hall of Fame voting is difficult when we do it in the writers election.
23:53It's it's it might even be more difficult when you're looking at a ballot with only three spots and that many great players.
24:01You know, Jason, as much as the Jeff Kent one, and I think to John's point was a furor because it was a solo like I think if you announce Jeff Kent, Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy, like whatever.
24:16I think people just gloss over Jeff Kent and go, wow, it's a feel good, whatever it's that I was even more surprised by how by the Carlos Delgado number you were able to make an historic case for Jeff Kent doing something like more voluminous than anyone else in the history at his position.
24:35Second base, not a traditional offensive position. And I always have to be careful.
24:41Nobody gets on the ballot writ large and certainly the ballot you just dealt with if they are not in the top two or three percent of players in the history of the game.
24:51So if I'm about to say, like, hey, Carlos Delgado surprised me, the backing he got.
24:57Understand, I think he's a great player. But like when you start to think about the history of the game, fame, the Hall of Fame, it feels like Carlos Delgado is the kind of guy you go, well, there's this 30 many 30 homer seasons and this many hundred RBI seasons in this.
25:13But it's like, yeah, we all covered the game. Did I miss the I can't wait to see Carlos Delgado play the way you would say Dale Murphy, Don Mattingly, Barry, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens.
25:27What am I missing that he got such support in that room?
25:32I don't know if I can even answer this.
25:36I like the question.
25:39You like the question better than the answer. I'm sure.
25:41Like there are always surprises when these committees meet.
25:45And one thing that people should know is there's not like backroom deal making.
25:51I know people think this happens, that there's a lot of guys going off into a corner and whispering to each other.
25:56And I'll vote for your guy. I'll vote for my guy. And I've never seen any of that.
26:00The vote.
26:01Well, just so you know, Jason, I didn't think that about Delgado.
26:05I know who was on the committee. I wouldn't imagine who would have been the champion of Carlos Delgado in that room.
26:10That's why, again, I'm offering some level of surprise that on that loaded ballot, that's the guy who finished a strong, a strong second.
26:19Yeah, I honestly can't answer this, Joel.
26:25But what I can say is what I told you earlier is I consider it to be my job to frame what I think the case is for this player and then ask people around the room what they thought, what they saw.
26:40Tyler, much the same.
26:42Steve Hurt, much the same.
26:45And there are reasons that players like Carlos Delgado get a lot of votes.
26:52And you'll have to think about those reasons because I can't tell you how it went.
26:58There was one thing that I wanted to say in answer to the last question, though, and that is that one reason that you only get one is the mathematics of how the vote works now.
27:12You know, I'm not a mathematician. I've played one on TV a couple of times, but people tell me that if you look at the mathematical odds of election, I mean, you can understand how you could elect one.
27:26But there's only 48 total ballot spots in the room among 16 of us.
27:33And so it becomes really hard to elect more than one and becomes virtually impossible mathematically to elect more than two.
27:43And so, you know, if you went in thinking, not to say I did this, I need to vote for Don Mattingly and Dale Murphy.
27:50Then all of a sudden there are other players, great players on the ballot.
27:55And mathematically, you only have one more spot.
27:57You can't vote for them all.
27:59That's true no matter what you think going in.
28:03The mathematics make it incredibly hard.
28:08Seventy five percent.
28:09I always thought that would be the separator.
28:11It's so hard to get 75 percent in any election.
28:14Hall of Fame, dog catcher, whatever it is.
28:17But now that you're down to three possible spots, we used to have four last time I did it.
28:24Three is really hard.
28:25And it creates a lot of, I think, unusual vote totals across the room.
28:32Within the criteria, and it's not a long, you know, it's not a page long thing.
28:38It's a paragraph or two are the words sportsmanship and integrity.
28:42It feels to me, and again, I'm not asking you what you heard in the room, but it feels to me just based on the votes or the lack of votes, is that that has just taken me now, did you do steroids or not?
28:55But nothing positive.
28:57You know, sportsmanship and integrity can be a positive as well.
29:02You know, it doesn't have to be, we're just going to eliminate the steroid, guys.
29:05It could be, this guy was a fantastic leader, you know, he helped guide the team or something like that.
29:12Do you get the impression generally, not only just with this vote, that that's what this has been taken to mean, that sportsmanship and integrity means we're going to not vote for the steroid guys, which I get, and I generally did not vote for them.
29:24And nothing positive can be taken out of someone's career.
29:32Well, are you saying that somebody like a Mattingly or a Murphy doesn't get positive character and integrity?
29:39Yeah, I'm wondering if that means, if that weighs, if it didn't feel, from this vote and from other votes, it weighs, I mean, we all voted for Mattingly, I don't know, or didn't vote for him.
29:49He was on the ballot for, you know, at least 10 years.
29:51I can't remember if it was 10 or 15 in his case, I think it was 15.
29:5515 for Don Mattingly.
29:55Okay, so, you know, he didn't get a tremendous number of votes and neither did Murphy.
30:01I mean, when I look at all the votes that they didn't get and I gave them, I'm thinking, I count sportsmanship integrity as something that can be a positive, too.
30:12It's not all just, did you take steroids or not?
30:14Because this was written before there were any steroids.
30:16It's, you have the feeling that, you know, maybe I'm in the vast minority here that doesn't, that counts sportsmanship and integrity as it could be a positive thing.
30:27It's not all about...
30:28Yeah, I've, hey, John, I've written about this many times.
30:32I, you know, I think we should be looking at that term just the way you just described.
30:37I think we should be awarding points for people who had impeccable character and integrity.
30:46And there's another part of that, too, which talks about contributions to the game.
30:52And I don't know, I think that means we're not just talking about a guy's playing career, but what he did for the sport.
31:02And so you have some players who didn't just, weren't just great players, but went on to manage, broadcast, elevate people's love of the game.
31:14Joe Torre comes to mind.
31:15I think, you know, Joe Torre has had a case as a player, but when you consider the entire baseball life, I think that's why he got elected.
31:24And so, like the people in the room are just like us, we all have our own interpretation of what this stuff means.
31:33And just like in any election, that when people step into the voters booth to vote for dog catcher, they all have these ideas in their head.
31:43That's what happens when we vote.
31:44And that's what happens in this room.
31:46And there was, I mean, there was a great discussion about Don Mattenly, about Dale Murphy, honestly, about everyone on that ballot.
31:57And you can surmise that all these things came up.
32:01I can't tell you how or why anyone else in the room voted.
32:06I know how I voted and why I voted that way.
32:08And it's always fascinating.
32:11And they, just before it's announced on TV, they gather us around and they tell us who got elected and what the vote was.
32:21And I'm always surprised.
32:24It's interesting.
32:25What's interesting to me, are they still voting for dog catcher in your town?
32:28You know, I've been sitting that one out.
32:32So, Jason, before we let you go, and it's something, obviously, we're all going to be talking.
32:38Talking and writing about a lot over the next month plus is the ballot that actually was sent out in November and is due by the end of this month, by the end of December.
32:49Tell us one player on it, one issue, whatever stood out as you begin your process with the ballot, the larger ballot.
33:00Yeah.
33:01Joe, this is something that you've talked about all the time.
33:03What an honor it is just to be on the ballot.
33:05But that said, this is probably the thinnest crop of first-year players on any ballot than I can remember.
33:16It's really hard to look at any first-year player and think, that's a Hall of Famer.
33:21I wonder if anybody's going to get 5%.
33:23I mean, the two best first-timers, I think you'd probably agree with this, right, are Cole Hamels and Ryan Braun.
33:32They had the best careers.
33:33They're the only two guys in the ballot who had more than 36 career wins above replacement.
33:39Hamels was just about at 60.
33:42And Ryan Braun got close to 50 wins above replacement.
33:46But he's obviously got some stuff hanging over him.
33:49And I wonder, after years and years and years of, 12 years of electing 18 first ballot Hall of Famers, does anybody get 5%?
34:01How many voters are going to use all 10 spots?
34:04It's pretty hard to imagine you're going to do that unless you've had somebody that you haven't voted for in the past, and now you want to circle back around.
34:14That guy might be Felix Hernandez for me.
34:17You know, I think one of the things that we started to talk about a lot is, like, the big old magic counting numbers are starting to disappear.
34:27We're never going to see a 300-game winner again.
34:30We're getting close to the point we might never see a 200-game winner again.
34:34And so what's a Hall of Fame starting pitcher look like?
34:37Maybe it looks something like Felix Hernandez, who had a six-year run where he finished first or second in the Cy Young voting three times.
34:46And, you know, his record isn't that much above 500, and he got 20% last time.
34:54But now there are a lot of votes that have been used up by the three guys that got elected and the one that fell off the ballot.
34:59So are we going to start looking more closely about those players who had big peaks and were great in their time?
35:11I keep thinking about Buster Posey coming on the ballot next year with 1,500 career hits, and he feels like a Hall of Famer to me.
35:22If Buster Posey gets elected, he changes everything for a whole group of players that I've been voting for to try to keep on the ballot.
35:29But Chase Up, Jimmy Rollins, David Wright is one.
35:35Dustin Pedroia I voted for last year because I think all those guys were famous.
35:39They were great for a period of time.
35:42And if Buster Posey gets in with 1,500 hits, it changes everything about how we look at the Hall of Fame.
35:48Yeah, I value Peek tremendously.
35:51I'm with you on Felix Hernandez.
35:53Maybe I'm getting soft in my old age.
35:56I actually found nine people to vote for on this year's ballot.
35:58Yeah, don't let that get out.
35:59It's terrible.
36:00I feel I'm embarrassed.
36:02I'm almost ashamed.
36:03It's really sad.
36:05I found nine to vote for.
36:07Many of those, all the guys that you mentioned, I think I voted for.
36:09I saw Johan Santana, not on the ballot, in the hallway here at the, and I'm like, well, you know what?
36:16I'm voting for Felix Hernandez now, you know, Johan Santana is kind of in that ballpark, too.
36:20I'm kind of a Peek guy.
36:21You know, some of my questions were a little bit toward the negative side about the contemporary era, the Veterans Committee, I guess, umbrella, we call it Veterans Committee.
36:34But, you know, I appreciate it because, you know what?
36:38There were guys in there that I voted for every year, like Fred McGriff, who eventually got, he didn't get much support from the writers, but he got in.
36:44Dave Parker, every year, didn't get much support.
36:47I voted for him and got in.
36:49Who, is there somebody on, either on this ballot or someone who's been passed over that, or one or two guys that you trumpet, that you feel very strongly about, that we've kind of missed on?
37:00And I'm glad, like I said, I'm very glad that you guys have corrected the, at least in my mind, it's a correction, Parker and McGriff.
37:08So I like the committee, and I did vote for Kent, and I don't want to be too negative about it, but, you know, I'm still a little hurt about Maticley, so that's why.
37:16John, I'm going to think of you as a softie now.
37:18Yeah, yeah.
37:18For the rest of my life.
37:19It's sad.
37:20But I'm glad you made this point, because I feel the way you do.
37:25I do think that as much as this committee takes a lot of shots, it performs a very valuable function in the Hall of Fame process.
37:34Because, I mean, I know how much the three of us care about our ballot, and we put so much time and thought into it, and writers think differently than baseball people.
37:49And we haven't cornered the market on all wisdom, much as we'd like to.
37:53And I'm always interested in who do Hall of Fame players think was a Hall of Fame player.
38:00There's nothing wrong with giving them the chance to have that say.
38:03And so, I could start going through our horrible one-and-dones with you, and Johan is certainly one of them.
38:13David Cohn.
38:15David Cohn deserves another look.
38:17I hope he gets one.
38:20Ernie Williams was not one-and-done, but he was another rough oversight by us.
38:25Jim Edmonds, Kenny Lofton, Lance Berkman.
38:28I would love it if these committees would give those players another look.
38:33And I don't know what would happen.
38:34I don't know where it's leading.
38:36But I would love for them to get another chance.
38:39They appeared on our ballot at a time when it was just overstuffed.
38:44You know, if you look at how many Hall of Famers were on the ballot, Carlos Delgado was one-and-done.
38:50Look at how many Hall of Famers were on the ballot, Jeff Kent's first year.
38:55Look at how many were on the ballot when Andrew Jones came on our ballot and got 7% the first year and almost didn't get enough to get a year two.
39:04It's a really interesting part of the process is when you arrive on the ballot and who else is there and how it makes you look in that moment.
39:16But sometimes in a different moment, everything can change.
39:19Yeah, you're all soft.
39:22You know, it's just –
39:23Yeah, that's right.
39:24I mean, it's the Hall of Fame.
39:26And I'm – I actually – I think you know this, Jason.
39:28We spend a lot of time together, especially in Cooperstown, every year besides talking.
39:33Jason, for transparency, Jason is a phone call I make every year before I fill out.
39:38Finally, send in my ballot to make sure are the ones that I think about because I actually – honestly, not just – you know how I feel, not just because you're a guest on the show.
39:46No, I don't think anybody churns this quite the way you do and thinks about it in three dimensions quite the way you do.
39:54But as just a way to close, I'll do it.
39:58Have we gotten too soft?
40:00It's the Hall of Fame.
40:02And again, nobody's making the ballot who isn't special.
40:05Well, and do we have to decide what the one-yard line is?
40:11And I think social media has changed everything.
40:14I think people get soft because they don't want to get criticized.
40:16You guys know me.
40:18I don't look at it.
40:19So I – but I find out well enough from people, oh, you only put two on or three on or four on.
40:26Well, there is no rule.
40:27Like, everyone wants to put people in the Hall of Fame.
40:30We're not voting for dog freaking catcher here.
40:32We're actually voting for the Baseball Hall of Fame.
40:35Like, have we lowered the standard?
40:39If you're voting for nine on this ballot, John, come on.
40:43Nine on this ballot?
40:45Like –
40:45They got a peak.
40:46They were – I mean, wasn't Pedroia a pretty special player in a short amount of time?
40:52You know, wasn't David Wright without the injury a pretty special?
40:56Felix Hernandez, you know.
40:58Yes, the Hall of Fame should be defined by who we leave out because it's so hard to get in that somebody's got to be left on the other side of the goal line.
41:08Yeah, the goal line moves.
41:10And, you know, it's John's fault because he's so soft.
41:13Yeah, it's soft on crime.
41:16He can't be elected dog catcher.
41:18He's too soft on crime.
41:20He's soft on dog.
41:21The dogs are running amok in John's neighborhood.
41:24We know this.
41:24Let the dogs out.
41:26Yeah.
41:27I mean, drawing that line is the hard part.
41:29And, you know, you're – the reason I enjoy our conversations about this so much, Joel, is you are a small, hollish kind of guy and you think differently than me.
41:41And so I enjoy thinking about where we should be drawing the line.
41:46And, you know, like we both spend too much time around our friend and Kenny, John, you too.
41:51And, you know, I think he's been beating this drum that we need to think about these players who felt like Hall of Famers in their peak, even though their peak might not have been as long as back in the day, players when guys were playing 25 years.
42:11And players who contributed to winning.
42:14Like that stuff matters.
42:18I know that you vote for Jimmy Rollins, for example.
42:21It shocks me that more people don't vote for Jimmy Rollins.
42:25Chase Utley, he's – I think he's going to get elected here at some point.
42:30I think Jeff Kent's election helps a guy like that.
42:34Does he have the fame component?
42:36Joel, he does.
42:37Does he have the winner component?
42:38He does.
42:39Does he have the big peak?
42:40He does.
42:40And Jimmy Rollins and Chase Utley played together on teams that finished first five years in a row, won a World Series, lost another one.
42:49And winning – like the winning part matters.
42:56So –
42:56It certainly matters.
42:57Yeah, this is a big – this is a big element in how we're evolving as voters.
43:03And I like being along for that ride.
43:05Yeah, because to me, it's not close.
43:07If you told me only Chase Utley or Jeff Kent could be a Hall of Famer, I would go with Chase Utley seven days a week and twice on Sunday.
43:16I'm with you guys, too.
43:17I'm with you on the Utley and on Rollins.
43:19Yeah, Joel is such a small hole guy.
43:21He could put it in the – he could put it inside a Wawa.
43:25I'll do a Philly – I mean, you could knock down half of the Hall of Fame if Joel was in charge of that.
43:33John, it's tough to have standards and try to keep going.
43:36I have standards.
43:37I have standards.
43:38I'm just – apparently, I'm just – I'm a nice guy, apparently.
43:44All the dogs are roaming around, John.
43:46I'm finding this out.
43:48If only we were in charge.
43:52Of the zoo, literally.
43:54That's right.
43:55Jason, I'm glad that the people who listen to our podcast – we always thank them for doing that – got to hear the conversation.
44:02It's a conversation we have with you quite a lot, and because we enjoy it, we gain knowledge from it, and I'm sure everybody who's listening did the same here.
44:13So, Jason, thank you so much for joining us on the show.
44:16Thank you guys for having me.
44:17Your show is great.
44:18I love listening to it and really happy to be a part of it every once in a while this time of year.
44:24Thanks, Jay.
44:25Thanks, Jason.
44:32John and I, of course, thank our friend Jason Stark for joining us on the show.
44:35John, hit or error?
44:37Well, we gave a big error to the Mets.
44:39I might as well give a hit to the Los Angeles Dodgers, who seem to do everything right.
44:44Everything's going their way.
44:46Two-time defending World Series champion to pull in Diaz here when they weren't expecting it.
44:52I mean, they had – I wouldn't say they had weaknesses, but they don't have some – they have some areas that aren't the greatest strengths, and obviously the bullpen was an issue this year.
45:01And now they've added the best closer, in my mind, in baseball.
45:05So, hats off to the Dodgers.
45:07Amazing job.
45:08I'm going to give two hits, John.
45:10One is to you.
45:11Thank you so much.
45:12I took a couple of weeks off for keeping the show going every week.
45:15You brought in a couple of guest hosts and kept our show going strong.
45:19I appreciate you doing that, and as always, everyone should know how hard John works, and they included doing the show while I was off for a few weeks, so thanks.
45:27But while I was off, the Nimmo semi-in trade went down, and I want to give a hit to Brandon Nimmo on the way out of the room.
45:37The Mets, in general, especially in comparison to the Yankees, are a much better clubhouse to work.
45:43One of the reasons that's been true over the years is Brandon Nimmo, good times, bad times, pregame, postgame, good about him, bad about him.
45:53He was an available, effusive, insightful person in their clubhouse.
46:01I wish him luck in Texas, and I thank him for being such a pro in his time with the Mets.
46:09Yeah, absolutely.
46:10We talk about their clubhouse, but they are much more available, accessible than the Yankees clubhouse.
46:15We've had on Nimmo multiple times, Lindor multiple times, Alonzo came on.
46:20You know, basically everybody.
46:21We have an episode of Mania, right, came on with us.
46:25Mania, Severino, we've had on Holmes.
46:30You know, basically anybody in that clubhouse has agreed to come on, plus the owner comes on multiple times, Yankee owner.
46:37He came on once, I think, with us, but I haven't seen him in a while.
46:42But the Yankees are not the same there.
46:44But I'm with you on Brandon Nimmo, fantastic guy.
46:48And the fantastic guys just keep leaving the Mets clubhouse.
46:51I'm very sad about this.
46:53Fans should be, too.
46:54Another fantastic guy and another guy who kept the show going while I took a couple of weeks off and lazy dogs me is Tommy Hogan, our terrific producer.
47:05Apple, Spotify, wherever you listen to podcasts, please subscribe, rate, review.
47:09It does help the show.
47:11The New York Post sports YouTube page.
47:13Give us a view.
47:14Follow us there as well.
47:16And we're going to wrap up here from the winter meetings, but we have a lot of hot stove to go.
47:21And we hope you stick with us on the show with Joel Sherman and John Heyman.
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