Why The Next Generation Is Walking Away From Charismatic Movements | Jed Hartley | Episode 586 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Jed examine why so many young people are leaving prophecy-driven and celebrity-led charismatic movements, including IHOPKC, Branhamism, and parts of the New Apostolic Reformation. They explore failed prophecy, institutional self-protection, manipulation through revival culture, and the widening gap between younger believers and older leaders shaped by decades of shifting claims.  The discussion also looks at why younger audiences often recognize contradictions faster, how college and real-world experience disrupt high-control religious systems, and why many who leave are not rejecting Christianity itself but reacting to spiritual performance, emotional pressure, and unstable authority structures. This conversation is especially relevant for anyone following current debates around IHOPKC, Bethel, prophetic ministry, Pentecostal excess, and the future of charismatic Christianity.  00:00 Introduction 02:24 Why Young People Leave Before The Scandals 05:58 Why Older Generations Stay 09:09 Faith, Rules, And The Shock Of Change 12:03 Failed Prophecy And The Younger Generation 16:25 Revival Culture Is Built To Churn Through Youth 18:30 Celebrity Christianity And The Loss Of Trust 20:36 The “Double Death” Analogy 26:05 Artificial Revival And Emotional Manipulation 28:43 Love Bombing, Grooming Patterns, And False Urgency 34:09 Why Institutions Protect Themselves 36:38 John’s Social Media Experiment On Contradictory Prophecies 41:28 Social Cohesion Above Truth 47:36 Why College Breaks The Spell 52:27 Death, Rebirth, And Rebuilding Faith 56:21 Critical Thinking And Why The Youth Notice  ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.

00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet and former member

00:47of the International House of Prayer.

00:50Jed, it's good to be back. It's been a couple weeks. We've had a little bit of a break.

00:55And the topic for today, it's really interesting to me because I've had people throughout the decade that I've been

01:04doing this ask me this question.

01:06And not just the people who are leaving and our former cult members.

01:11I've had people in the cult contact me and say, what are you doing?

01:15Why are all the young people leaving the group? And whichever group that is, you know.

01:20So, you and I were talking about topics for today and why the youth are leaving.

01:26I think that's really relevant to what we're seeing today.

01:29You see all of this mess in the New Apostolic Reformation, charismatic movement, some branches of Pentecostalism.

01:37And yet, it seems to be the older people who stay really solid in the movement.

01:44And a lot of the younger people, I've actually had people, youth contact me, who aren't yet of age to

01:51leave.

01:51And let's say, I'm planning on leaving.

01:53I don't believe any of this that I'm hearing.

01:55And whether it's the Branham cult, IHOP, Casey, whatever it is.

01:59They say, what do I do?

02:00What is my strategy for leaving once I'm of an age to leave?

02:05So, I thought you and I could talk about just the youth culture and what it means to youth who

02:13are in the movement in today's world with the information highway, all of the tools that our fathers and forefathers

02:20did not have.

02:21So, very interesting topic.

02:24Yeah, I think it's an interesting way to frame it, too, because I know we've talked probably extensively, one,

02:31one, on how youth get sucked in to these things, but I think it's good to also recognize why many

02:41people are, many young people are leaving.

02:46And this is not just, this is not just something that has happened since the recent scandals.

02:55So, like, I'm going to be speaking sort of from my experience of what I saw of the people who

03:01I grew up with at IHOP primarily,

03:04but also involved with YWAM and Bethel and how I saw many individuals who I grew up with, including myself

03:14and my sisters and those who, my best friends, everyone, why we kind of left.

03:21And it's not all the same reason, but it was happening well before the recent scandals.

03:29And I think that by identifying why people are leaving, I mean, the main thing that I'm going to be

03:37emphasizing today is that these communities are not built for longevity.

03:42I know that this is something that I have talked about before, but I'm going to reemphasize in this particular

03:49discussion, but there just isn't scenarios to grow up.

03:54There's not, you cannot grow up in these communities and find your own identity, find your own sense of security.

04:05You either mold yourself, lose a lot of sense of, not just a sense of yourself, but a sense of

04:16purpose, because you have to constantly be reshaping around whatever new prophecy,

04:25whatever new agenda the organization is wrapping itself around.

04:35If you can't be fluid with that, move on to the next, forget the old prophecy, move to the next

04:42prophecy, forget what we were doing yesterday and start adapting to what we're going to be doing today.

04:48One, that, I mean, just at its very basic level, people get ousted, not, I shouldn't say ousted in that

04:57people themselves feel like they have to either give up parts of themselves or they have to leave the community

05:10in general.

05:10So it's not just like, it's not just young adults like me who are criticizing the community.

05:19I mean, there's a lot of young, I know a lot of people who grew up with me who would

05:24absolutely still be a hundred percent.

05:27Well, one, they would still consider themselves charismatic Christians.

05:33They can still hold a lot of the core beliefs that we were sort of given as young adults and

05:42children.

05:43But yet they are completely isolated and distant from the community as well, especially the IHOP community, because there's just

05:52no place for them.

05:53There's no way to actually grow in those communities.

05:57And I think that's just it.

05:59That a lot of the older generation, I know that in talking with some of the former members of different

06:05groups, their parents were much like mine.

06:09There was this mindset, which is neither good nor bad.

06:13It was just the culture that if you found something good, it was to change it, was to change away

06:22from the good.

06:22And so you have people who are set in their ways, especially the grandparents, like my grandparents were very set

06:28in their ways.

06:29And that's not necessarily a bad thing.

06:31That was just the culture.

06:32In the modern world, things are changing rapidly.

06:36I mean, I just look back at the last two years, how much has changed in the last two years.

06:42Things that, well, if you go back five years, look at the fast food industry.

06:46Fast food has changed so much that it's almost as cheap to eat in a dine-in restaurant than it

06:53is to eat in a fast food restaurant because the cost and everything has changed so much.

06:57And this would have never been, you know, back in my father's day or his, you know, in the grandparents'

07:03day.

07:03Things are changing so rapidly.

07:05And the youth are trained to adapt to the change, especially if you're in school, right?

07:11So whenever you're in a movement such as IHOPKC, such as the brand and religion I came out of, what

07:20happens is really odd because the movement itself is changing.

07:24But the adults fail to see it sometimes.

07:27And so as it shifts and changes, the adults who have that mindset, they begin to just kind of go

07:36with the change, not recognizing that it is changing.

07:39And things drastically change, but slowly over time.

07:43The youth actually picks up on it.

07:45An example of this, I look back at some of the older pictures of the group that I came out

07:51of.

07:51And the dress code was much more forgiving than it is today.

07:58The women could have skirts right up to the knees, and they were wearing shirts with no sleeves, et cetera,

08:05even in the Branham family.

08:06In the Branham family today, they actually published, a few years ago, they published a picture of what the holy

08:13female looks like.

08:15And she's got to have the skirt all the way down to cover the ankles because if you're a man

08:20and you look at the ankles, you're sinning.

08:22Well, that slowly changed gradually over time.

08:25And I remember hearing sermons about showing the ankles, and they called them scandal skirts, which was a little bit

08:31odd because I don't see the ankle as scandalous.

08:35But it changed so gradually over time that the adults aren't picking up on it.

08:39But the youth, at that time, I wasn't really youth.

08:41I was in my 20s.

08:43But I could see the change was happening because I was more adept to the change.

08:49So long story short, if you're in one of these groups, if you're in the older generation, you're not recognizing

08:55the change.

08:55You're just kind of thinking, this is the way it's always been.

08:58This is the way it will always be.

09:00And the youth instead are picking up and saying, wait a minute, why are we changing things?

09:05I thought the other way that we used to be, I thought that was the godly way.

09:09Well, and I mean, it's the whole notion of childlike faith.

09:14Children believe wholeheartedly the things that they are taught and they are given.

09:20So, I mean, when you devote yourself entirely to these, the analogy of the wardrobe, I think, or the example

09:30of the way that the wardrobe has changed is a good example.

09:35Because if you are young and you are thinking that there is a lot of biblical and spiritual reasoning behind

09:44whatever rules are being followed.

09:48And the reason you follow this is because you kind of unquestioningly say, yeah, this makes sense.

09:55I accept and adapt to the rule that has been given to me.

10:00When that rule changes, because you believed so fervently in the rule or whatever principle, if it changes, those who

10:13are truly devout and truly believe and have faith in those rules, that's going to be way more jarring.

10:19I know I've given this analogy before, but I talked about if I get a message from my dad, and

10:32my sisters do as well, when I say I'm young again, and my dad's out of town and he says,

10:37hey, I'm going to take you guys on a trip.

10:40Pack up your things, meet me at the bus station, I'm going to pick you up in a day, and

10:45we're going to go on this long trip.

10:49Well, if I and my sisters have a different level of, I'll just use the word faith, if we have

10:58a different level of faith in my dad, and whether he will come back and pick us up and take

11:03us on that trip, our behavior is going to be different.

11:07Maybe my older sister, who's seen this before, says, eh, I don't know if it's really going to happen, so

11:13she doesn't really fully pack her bags.

11:16But let's say that I very fervently believe it, I'm excited for it, I fully pack my bags, I'm sitting

11:22there at the bus station, ready to go, an hour goes by, my dad's not there, two hours go by,

11:29my dad's not there.

11:29Those who have the least amount of faith or hope in the promise that was given will be able to,

11:41ironically, be able to adapt the best, because they will say, eh, I guess it didn't come.

11:47Like, well, we'll get them next time, and just go back home.

11:52You know, my older sister, who didn't pack anything, says, eh, I didn't think it might happen, I'll wait for

11:57the next time, he says.

11:59And there is, I do think that there's, I think that largely the people who are at IHOP who are

12:07older have kind of become that person.

12:11I don't know why I'm picking on my older sister in this example, but people who have seen it before

12:20are still, for some reason, in the community, recognize that it's going to change.

12:29And don't put a whole lot of hope or faith in the, or have a lot of conviction in those

12:35rules, because they understand it's fluid, it's going to change, it doesn't really mean anything.

12:41These prophecies about, you know, the sky splitting open and solar flares that are going to disrupt the entire planet

12:51ecosystem in 2015.

12:53I mean, these are literal prophecies that were given during my childhood about something that was going to happen in

13:002015.

13:02You know, for the adults who were there and had been a part of IHOP for a long period of

13:11time, who were hearing those prophecies about 2015.

13:17You know, 2015 comes and goes, and it doesn't matter to them, because the prophecies about 1991 never happened to

13:25them.

13:25The prophecies about 1997 never happened to them.

13:29The prophecies about 1985, these are all specific dates that are linked to different prophecies that I now know about

13:37in the past.

13:37I wasn't old enough to see the failure of prophecy in those periods of time.

13:43But they all saw those failures, and for some reason, they said it doesn't matter, and they continued to stick

13:53with the community, not because of faith in the community, but because of something different.

14:01Because of need, because of identity, because of exploitation, maybe they were getting things out of it.

14:10I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why older individuals stay, but for the young adults, the ones who

14:17actually believe, especially children who have faith, they are left at the bus stop.

14:23They are left waiting, staring, looking at their watch, saying, he's going to come any minute now.

14:29He's going to come.

14:30He's going to pick us up, and we're going to go on our trip.

14:32And even without the devastation that is the sexual exploitation and all of the depravity that has been made more

14:49clear that was going on behind the scenes at IHOP,

14:52even without that whole scandal, you still have a wake of young adults who are left waiting for the bus,

15:03waiting for their father to show up and take them on a trip,

15:06waiting for something that they thought was going to happen, building their entire worldview, their understanding of themselves, making decisions

15:18about their lives.

15:19I mean, this happened to me, I would have 100% had a different career aspirations and had different, you

15:29know, gone to, could have gone to a real college when I got out of high school,

15:35had I been thinking different, but, which I don't want to say as like a woe is me thing.

15:40But, I mean, it really does affect the way I built my world around beliefs that just, even the people

15:54within the community were not building their perspective and worldview around those beliefs,

16:02because they were never, ever said with a degree of urgency, like they were, or integrity, like it was always

16:12a flash in the pan.

16:17And so I think that on the very base level, you have people leaving in mass.

16:28I mean, this is why these communities are structured to churn out young adults.

16:35So it's, let's bring in the new group and replace the old group, because there's so many people who are

16:43leaving that community.

16:44That's why, like, if I went to IHOP and I looked around, I wouldn't recognize most individuals.

16:51I mean, even they're, even they're bored now.

16:55I know probably two or three people, and they were the older, you know, the Ed Hacketts who were there

17:03from the beginning and were giving prophecies back then.

17:07And I'm sure giving prophecies now, like there's, there's people who I grew up with that were like parents of

17:13my, you know, friends, my friends' parents.

17:17But all of my friends are gone.

17:19I mean, no one, not a single person that I know who I grew up with is still in the

17:27International House of Prayer, which take a moment to think about that.

17:29Like, that's wild.

17:31I know plenty of people who live in Kansas City.

17:34I know plenty of people who are still charismatic Christians who live in Kansas City.

17:38I don't, you know, a single person in my age range who is still going to the International House of

17:44Prayer right now.

17:45Now, some of that also is because of the recent scandal.

17:49But even, even before the scandal, I think that there was probably two or three friends of mine, or I

17:57guess probably more former friends of mine who I had grown up with, who were still at the International House

18:03of Prayer.

18:03Because it's just not made.

18:05It's not a church.

18:06It's not made to grow up in.

18:08It's not made to be a home.

18:10It's not made to be a spiritual place of growth.

18:15It is revival.

18:18It is get people excited, get people radicalized for a summer, take their money, and move on.

18:29You know, like I've said, the people contacting me aren't always people who have left the groups.

18:35But interestingly, I also get people who were never in the groups, and they're saying things like, what you're doing,

18:44John, you're helping people out of the cults, but I'm watching a lot of them leave God altogether, become atheists.

18:51And the people are walking away from Christianity because of the exposure of some of the groups.

18:57And it's, you know, it's a double-edged sword.

19:01Yes, there are people who are doing this.

19:03I do know a lot of people who leave and they remain Christian.

19:06And as I've mentioned on the podcast a few times, when people leave and they go down the pathway of

19:13reexamining their faith, usually they're breaking down a false god.

19:17They're not breaking down the god of the Bible.

19:21And really, it comes down to this.

19:23Young people, whenever they're leaving, they're not walking away because Christianity is asking too much of them or because they're

19:29having fault with that.

19:30A lot of the cases, they're walking away because the charismatic celebrity culture is asking them to believe in the

19:39celebrity.

19:41And while a lot of the adults may have become accustomed to shutting down critical thinking, the youth are not

19:49like this.

19:50They're developing their critical thinking skills, especially those who are going to school, and they're being taught to critically think.

19:56So whenever they see somebody on the platform that just doesn't look real to them, they're going to start thinking,

20:03is this person being truthful with me?

20:05And that's whenever it all begins to break down.

20:08In fact, some of the people who've contacted me who are waiting to become of age to leave their group

20:15once they leave the household, that's one of the things that they said.

20:19I can see right through this person.

20:20This person is not telling the truth.

20:23That's how they'll phrase it.

20:25But it comes down to that.

20:27It's not that they're leaving Christianity because they're being asked to believe the Christian values.

20:32They're being asked to believe so many things that are on top of Christianity.

20:35I think that's an excellent point.

20:38And it reminds me of trying to remember who the author is.

20:47Maybe it will come to me while I'm talking, but there was an author who wrote about the concept of

20:54what he labeled double death.

20:58And this was in the context of environmental health and the health of ecosystems.

21:07So I remember reading this back when I was getting my master's degree and I thought it was a fascinating

21:14concept because the specific example that he gave was in India.

21:24You have predominantly a Hindu nation and many people who have a reverence for cows in India, but they still

21:37use cows for dairy and whatnot.

21:41There isn't, there isn't, there isn't a whole, it is, there is not beef in India.

21:49Like you don't have cows for meats, but you have them for other purposes and whatnot.

21:54And so cows are sort of revered.

21:57There's a lot of cows that if you're in India and you're walking around, there might just be cows walking

22:02down the streets there and whatnot.

22:06And the long and short of it is, is that in India, they started giving cows various types of antibiotics

22:14to help them.

22:15There was a lot of cows that were getting sick and they were dying and causing a lot of street

22:24pollution and because the, because they would die and their bodies rotten in the streets and everything.

22:32And it also, they were dying and so they're, to sort of elongate their lives and, and to give them,

22:41to be able to use them to produce more dairy and everything.

22:46There's a lot of reasons to sort of give them these antibiotics.

22:49But the thing is, is that these antibiotics that would be given to the cows were deadly to the species,

23:01the primary species of vultures that would usually consume the dead animal.

23:12So like when a cow dies, if it has been injected with a bunch of these antibiotics, the vultures who

23:21normally would scavenge on, on the cow's bodies were doing so, but then they were dying too, because they were

23:33there while cows could process this, these antibiotics, these vultures could not.

23:39So there was this sort of very quick, max extinction of all of these, this very specific species of vultures

23:46that was really important to the ecosystem in India.

23:51Because again, when a cow dies, you know, it could often happen in the street and then you have a

23:57ginormous rotting dead corpse in the street.

24:01And unless you have scavengers that are able to quickly pick that up, you know, there's a lot that needs

24:09to be done to make it sanitary and keep it clean.

24:13So anyway, all that, the long and short of it is, is by trying to elongate the life cycle of

24:25these cows, there was a disruption to the ecosystem that resulted into what this individual called double death,

24:35where the, the death that would have normally been a part of a cycle of life, where the cow dies,

24:48is eaten by the vultures, and there's this, this sort of symbiotic nature of the, the, the ecosystem.

24:55Now, because we elongated that life through artificial means and using this particular antibiotic is now creating, not only leading

25:07to the death of the, I mean, the cows die eventually anyway.

25:11And then now the vultures are dying and now it's a whole lot of different animals are dying because there

25:17are, um, large, uh, cows that are, are rotting on the streets and causing all sorts of, um, uh, polluting

25:28the water systems and everything like that.

25:30And so, uh, I know that's a very visceral image, but I've always thought about that because I think that

25:36just philosophically, I think that that's something that we do as humans by trying to control and artificially elongate the

25:48life of something.

25:49We lead to this process of double death and very specifically what I think the application is, is when you

26:02tell people, or when you build a community that is based off of revival philosophy and supernatural gifts and, um,

26:17prophecies and healings,

26:19that are largely artificially stimulated, what happens is that you poison the ecosystem because sure you get, you get big

26:33conferences, you get big one thing conferences, you get a bunch of 16, 17, 18 year olds weeping on the

26:43floor, devoting their lives to Jesus.

26:45This seems like a good thing, right?

26:48When we have this huge one thing conference and tens of thousands of young adults are professing their undying loyalty

26:57and faith in Jesus Christ, um, that seems like a good thing, but it's, but it's completely artificial because it

27:06is intentionally and manipulatively stirring up the emotions of young individuals.

27:15To make them believe the world is to make them believe the world is not the way that it is,

27:19that we can speak and suddenly people are healed, that we can, in an instance, cleanse ourself of addiction, um,

27:31that we can do all of these things that I understand.

27:34It would be great if it would be great if that happened, but that's not how it happens.

27:37Like, um, I just was, I just was talking to someone who is still in the Bethel world and we

27:43were talking about my father and she was like, you need to send him to this deliverance, uh, ministry where

27:51I've seen people go there and their addiction is healed in an instant.

27:56And I know that she meant well, but I, I had to have a very serious conversation with her.

28:01And I was like, my father has a history of addiction that stretches back to before I was born.

28:09This is not healed in an instant.

28:11It can't be.

28:12That's not, that's not even the way it should be.

28:14This is something that like you need to put effort into.

28:19It's going to take years and then years after that, and then years to continue up with it like this

28:24to change and adapt in our life.

28:28It takes effort.

28:29It takes commitment.

28:30It takes integrity.

28:32It takes honesty.

28:33And the IHOP and Bethel culture, um, and just the new apostolic reformation culture in general looks to provide shortcuts

28:45to all of those different things.

28:47And it's similar to it.

28:50If you started dating someone and if I, let's say I was dating someone and they're young and haven't dated

29:00a whole lot before.

29:02And I just start love bobbing them.

29:04I, every single day I send them information about how much I care about them, how they're the, the person

29:10I've always been waiting for in the moment.

29:13Like this is something, this, and this is, this is, I'm giving this example because this is explicitly what happens

29:20too, of what these leaders, um, in these religious communities were doing with young, like this is the process of

29:28grooming too.

29:29So it's not a coincidence, um, that this, this overlaps, but it's this idea.

29:34If you, if you, if you, you can manipulate, especially young people by making it seem like they are suddenly

29:44in a world that is completely magical and completely different.

29:47That, um, in this room, like in a romantic sense that they are, um, with someone who loves them completely

29:56unconditionally, only has eyes for them, is totally and wholly infatuated with them.

30:03Um, and I mean, the truth is, is that that's not how it works.

30:09And like nine times out of 10, the people who are saying that are just manufacturing these things.

30:16And in two years, they're going to be saying the same thing to an entirely different young person.

30:21It's going to be that, that is going to be their new fixation of all their desires.

30:26But when you're young and you have someone love bombing you and you've never experienced it before, you don't know

30:33that it's going to suddenly disappear after two months or two years or whatever it is.

30:38And so you become infatuated with that person who is infatuated with you and you lose yourself to them.

30:48And I think that's exactly the same thing.

30:50Exactly.

30:51Like the, it's the same exact playbook as what's happening with these churches where it says, come give everything that

30:59you have, whether it's time, whether it's money, whether it's energy, whether it's emotion, devotion, whatever it is, give everything

31:08that you have, sacrifice it on the altar here, because you will be able to speak in tongues.

31:13You will be able to see and dream visions and look, there is something coming in two, three years.

31:20The end of the world is right on our fingertips.

31:23Look at all the things that are going on in Israel.

31:25I mean, it must be the case, you know, and there's this prophecy and, oh, have you ever heard this

31:31thing that Bob Jones prophesied?

31:33He prophesied exactly what's happening today.

31:36And you don't know better because you haven't gone in depth and you weren't there when Bob Jones was prophesying

31:44something completely different.

31:46You weren't there when Bob Jones was prophesying, you know, that Mike Bickle's brother was going to walk and it

31:56was going to be healed again.

31:57And then he died, like you haven't been there to see the failure of prophecy.

32:03And so in that moment, just like the young adult who is being love bombed by an older manipulative groomer,

32:10they think they are in a world completely of their own.

32:14And in this magical, fanciful world in which they are at the very pinnacle of either some sort of divine

32:23love or purpose.

32:26And that is intoxicating.

32:31It's something that you would want to give everything over.

32:35Who cares about doing homework?

32:37Who cares about prepping for college?

32:40Who cares about this or that?

32:43Who cares about even, you know, having friendships or relationships with the people my age?

32:49They are not exciting.

32:50They're not, you know, as infatuating as this person who is love bombing me or as this church that is

32:58giving me all of these purposes.

33:00So, of course, people dedicate themselves to this.

33:04And then, of course, within literally months to maybe years, they get burnt.

33:11And they are suddenly at this place where they now realize, oh, my goodness, it was all a lie.

33:17We're now telling stories to different people about different things, about different prophecies, about prophecies that Bob Jones had that

33:27I never heard.

33:28And it was never told to me.

33:30And the one that he did say, everyone seemed to have forgotten.

33:35Or in the love bombing situation, this person who used to have all this affection and eyes towards me, suddenly

33:42they seem to be infatuated with somebody else.

33:45Because suddenly they're being coercive and telling you it's my fault that they don't have this affection for me.

33:52I mean, yeah, it is such a toxic and heartbreaking cycle that is so clear to see from anybody who's

34:15been there before on the outside, right?

34:17Not clear to see when you're young on the inside, but every time I look up, every time I still

34:27follow enough where I'll get on my feed, whether Facebook or on Twitter or whatever, I will get the International

34:38House of Prayer videos show up.

34:40And I just had one yesterday show up.

34:42And again, it was, I can't remember her name, Taylor Heba, but one of the new leaders of IHOP.

34:55And she was just talking about how not to be offended and don't look back and continue, like forgive and

35:02move forward.

35:03And it's just like, oh my goodness, this is such a scam.

35:06It is such a scam.

35:07They're running it that every single time it's, they need their new group of children to come and be infatuated.

35:16And they can't do that if too many people are talking about the way that children were burned in the

35:24past.

35:24So they need to move forward and they need to have everybody shut up about all of the terrible things

35:30that happen.

35:39Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter

35:47reign, charismatic and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?

35:52You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

36:00On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

36:08John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

36:14You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

36:21If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the

36:27top.

36:27And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

36:33watching.

36:34On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

36:38I was thinking as you were talking about an experiment that I did when I first began all of the

36:46website, blog, etc.

36:48It was before I had the podcast.

36:50I was still trying to wrap my brain around how people could believe something that wasn't true, but take it

36:58a step further to defend something that obviously wasn't true.

37:02How can you do this?

37:03And the funny part about that story was, at the same time I was trying to figure that out, I

37:08was also deep into watching The Walking Dead.

37:11And so watching all these zombies, it was hard not to find a correlation between the two.

37:19But anyway, long story short, I was big into social media at that point in time because I was trying

37:28to build all of the platform that I have now.

37:30So I was publishing to different social media platforms and I had a lot of test accounts because I would

37:36build a page and I'd have it automate posting to the page and I have a test account posting.

37:42And one time I watched somebody reply to one of my test posts and I knew it would be a

37:49little bit wrong for me to engage them with the fake profile.

37:52But what I did instead, which is kind of in the gray area of whether it's ethical, I had two

37:58test accounts that instead of talking to the person that responded to them, these two test accounts started talking to

38:05each other.

38:05So I would post on one side and then I would post on the other side and I had just

38:10a normal conversation and that really, it developed into that's how I kept using my test accounts is really to

38:19develop my platform.

38:20But I get to have some fun with it because, like you said, people who are in this movement and

38:27they're watching the prophecies change over time, they always stick with the latest version.

38:31Let's ignore all of the previous versions.

38:33Well, I had one test account and I was out of the Branham cult.

38:37I had one test account talking about Branham and said, praise God, Branham prophesied, yada, yada, yada.

38:42And for sake of people who don't know Branham's prophecies, I'll just say, praise God, he prophesied that the sky

38:50will be blue one day.

38:52And today over the Ohio Valley, it's gray.

38:55And the other guy, the other test account started saying, praise God, he did say that, but he also said

39:02and then said this other thing.

39:04So there's variations of each prophecy as history went on.

39:08And as time went on through this conversation, I literally was going, and this was actual prophecies, actual details.

39:15I was actually giving quotes where he would say one thing, then he would say the opposite.

39:20Then he would say something out in left field, something out in right field.

39:24And over time, it would just be forgotten completely.

39:27And what I was watching happen was weird.

39:32And you could kind of tell the age just by reading the post and looking at the profile pictures.

39:36Some of the older people who were engaging in that conversation between my two test accounts, they were agreeing with

39:44both sides.

39:45As though both sides, even though they're polar opposite, they believe both sides to be true.

39:50Praise God, yes.

39:51Praise God, yes on this other thing.

39:53But the younger crowd, they're looking at it scratching their head.

39:56And I actually started getting messages into the test account box.

39:59Wait a minute.

40:00You mean he said this and he also said the opposite?

40:03So there's this thing, and I haven't really come to a conclusion if it's just simply due to the mind

40:10control or due to the fact of the age and the critical thinking of today.

40:14The older crowd will accept two false positives in opposite directions, two different polls.

40:22I had one guy tell me that I was explaining Branham's two birth years that he gave.

40:28One was bound to his Elijah ministry, one was bound to his Moses ministry, and you can't be born two

40:34different years.

40:35So I was explaining to him, this is impossible.

40:37And he says, I don't understand it, brother, but praise God, I believe it anyway.

40:42And I'm like, well, what do you believe, man?

40:44You believe the guy was born in two different years?

40:46The older crowd can do this.

40:48And I've come to the conclusion that I don't understand it, but I've come to the conclusion that over time,

40:54the effect that it has on your mental capacity to engage critical thinking is just completely gone.

41:01So the older you get, the longer you're in one of the groups, you'll get to the point where you're

41:07like the walking dead.

41:08You're just walking around, whatever the leader says goes.

41:11I'm going to believe it.

41:12Praise God, I believe it anyway.

41:13But the younger crowd is not like this.

41:16They're a little bit more in tune with reality.

41:19And I think that's the difference.

41:21You've got the walking dead side, which is all the fantasy world.

41:24And then you've got the youth who are trying to find what is reality.

41:28Yeah, you have a group that is the only real virtue of the group insofar as like the only thing

41:42that you that it fosters is social cohesion.

41:48And social cohesion in accordance to a very specific social hierarchy of these people are at the top.

41:57And so the only real quality that you can have that will allow you to survive and thrive in this

42:06community is being able to yes and like it's like an improv comedy group, you know, where someone says Mike

42:18Pickles says this.

42:18You say yes and let me add my two thoughts on this and regardless, whatever it is, you always you

42:26never break the rule of yes and.

42:28And I remember now so many different interactions that I had growing up where we really rewarded the yes anders

42:39and made them look all every single character virtue that I grew up with was warped by yes anders.

42:52And so I used to think what it meant to be a good thinker just or a good.

43:07Maybe I should be more specific than thinker, but a good investigator, a good I'm not finding the right word

43:18for this, but someone who is dreaming planning is to be like, OK, that's great.

43:26And like, I thought there was a sense of epistemic humility, I suppose, to the people who are like, hmm,

43:35this seems confusing to me, but I just I trust God.

43:40And that was always what it was framed as is even when you have questions, you thought this prophecy was

43:47going to happen.

43:48You were there sitting at the at the at the bus station and despite your father telling you that he

43:55was going to come and show up right at that period of time, you weren't there, but you don't get

44:01offended.

44:02And it was and that's the that's the frame.

44:05You put it as a good virtue thing as the person who is saying, OK, who is giving up on

44:13their convictions, who is not demonstrating faith, who is not demonstrating conviction, who is not demonstrating intelligence, who is not

44:22demonstrating curiosity,

44:26who is only demonstrating sort of this virtue of go with the flow, laissez-faire, accept that which your community

44:36is saying and then put on a smiling face to help keep that social cohesion.

44:47I mean, that was the only real virtue that was celebrated in our community.

44:55And I again, everything, my understanding of humility, my understanding of patience, my understanding of of wisdom, maybe wisdom is

45:06the right word that I was looking for.

45:08I thought it wise to say this is bigger than me.

45:13I will.

45:14I thought this one thing, but instead it is it doesn't seem to be true.

45:19And so I shall adapt.

45:20And that seemed to be the wise answer to the difficult questions was, I don't know.

45:29I'll let God take over.

45:30That's not wisdom.

45:31That doesn't benefit you in any respect.

45:34It's how you do some of the worst, most horrible things you could ever imagine while still thinking that you're

45:42a good person is by having no backbone and no ability to discern and no conviction to both, you know,

45:53truth and to character.

45:55Um, and no honesty, integrity, that is not wisdom, but that was what was modeled for me as the sort

46:05of pinnacle of wisdom.

46:07And those who were demonstrating actual wisdom, those who were demonstrating actual conviction were seen as disruptors, right?

46:17Because it does.

46:18When, when, when you have a community that is going against just basic truth, going against, when you have a

46:29deceptive, dishonest, um, exploitive community.

46:35The people who are demonstrating virtues in those communities will, will strain the social cohesion, will, will cut the sort

46:47of ties that are keep bonding people together.

46:49And that became, ooh, that person is wrong.

46:53And so when I grew up, when I thought people left the church, I thought they left the church.

47:00And by church, I mean, actually just our cool community, but there was no difference to me at that time.

47:08I thought everyone, and if someone decided that they were going to reject, um, IHOP's philosophy and go join, let's

47:21say, a different Methodist church, or God forbid, a Catholic church.

47:27Which, in my, in my head, they had left, they had left, they were no longer practicing Christians.

47:35Um, and so the only reason why, especially young adults, left the, the church was because of sin.

47:44That was the only way that I could kind of, um, envision it.

47:49Um, and so going back to the very subject of this video, why do people leave?

47:55Well, uh, we have talked extensively.

47:57It is not about sin, but because they frame it, because the only real virtue in the community that is

48:03reaffirmed consistently is social cohesion.

48:08Anybody who was disrupting that social cohesion was viewed as vicious, was viewed as someone who was sinning, was doing

48:19something that was depraved.

48:21And usually then rumors would spark about sexual immorality or sexual orientation, or they, um, pride, they, you know, they

48:33got, went off to college and they think they know everything.

48:35Which, the reason why, and this is the last thought I'll have here, because I've just been going like I

48:41normally do, but, the reason why so many young adults who are in similar, tight-knit cult communities, or even

48:55just extending it, even just like really tight conservative Christian communities.

49:00The reason why you see them go to college and suddenly they come back and they believe everything is different.

49:09I mean, there's this belief that, that colleges are this place where indoctrination happens.

49:18The hard truth of it is, is, I mean, of course, there's, there's some, you know, indoctrination at every level

49:24in different places.

49:25But largely, when people go to college, the, the, the, the principles and truths that they have been indoctrinated with

49:36as young adults are incompatible with the community they suddenly arrive at.

49:43If I went with my IHOP eschatology and my IHOP worldview to a normal, you know, the University of Missouri,

49:54Kansas City, to get an English degree, which I did, um, it's totally, my childhood and my worldview is totally

50:08incompatible with the world that I'm living in.

50:09I'm learning about things that undeniably haven't, that our community has just chosen to look over.

50:21Um, I'm learning about principles of psychology that, again, our community has been using to exploit people.

50:30And you're really, like, you get terms to realize that, oh, a lot of the things that we were doing

50:36were messed up.

50:37You know, if you go to medical school, you realize, oh, you can't just, like, the, the straightening the feet

50:43isn't actually a real thing.

50:46Like, oh, that's just a, uh, a trick.

50:50You know, you experience stuff which realizes, oh, a lot of things that I was taught were just straight up

50:59lies.

51:00And in doing so, you have to leave your community.

51:04And this is back to that notion of double death.

51:09Because so much of the community is built around lies and deception.

51:17Naturally, whenever you grow up, you're going to learn the things that your parents believed and the things that your,

51:22your community taught you is not exactly the way that the world is.

51:26And you're going to have to come to terms with that.

51:28And some of it's going to be right, some of it's going to be wrong.

51:30I mean, that happens regardless.

51:31No community is absolved of, like, there is that sort of growing pains of learning.

51:36But if there is this sort of natural death that is allowed, where you allow children to think for themselves

51:44and grow up and figure out some of this on their own and come back and bring their own convictions

51:50and hold on to their principles, then there's an opportunity for rebirth.

51:56There's an opportunity for the young adult to hold on to the same core convictions, the same, you know, belief

52:04in Christianity that they were taught when they were young, because it's their own now.

52:10And now it's even greater, because, like, the religion of their parents died in some respects.

52:16And now their own religion is reborn, and it can be beautiful.

52:21And I think that it's actually the necessary process of everyone's faith journey is to have this sort of natural

52:28death and rebirth.

52:31I mean, to be a Christian is called to be reborn.

52:36Like, that's the idea of this sense of, like, dying, the old self dying and something new coming out.

52:42And when there are these unnatural, coercive, artificial stimulants that are placed within the child so that they are radical

52:56Christians at 12 years old, so that they are unquestioning of every little detail of every little thing that you

53:04teach them.

53:06And the death looks a lot more tragic, and there isn't this sort of natural cycle of rebirth, because there's

53:13not a whole lot of pieces to bring back up.

53:15Like, when I let go of my version of Christianity, there wasn't a whole lot of things for me to

53:25look back on and be like, I would like this to rise up out of the ashes, because so much

53:31of it was entirely artificial, or was extremely coercive or manipulative.

53:37And so, there wasn't a whole lot of natural good virtues to find.

53:42So, why not go somewhere else?

53:45Why not see what Buddhism has to offer?

53:47Why not say religion is done all together?

53:50Because the ground that it was built on was so poisoned that you have to go find a new field

53:58to plant and grow and everything.

54:00So, nothing gets me more irritated.

54:09Well, this is one of the things that gets me the most irritated.

54:12When people talk about young adults going to college and losing their faith, especially within the context of the latter

54:26rain movement, the New Apostolic Reformation kind of communities.

54:31It makes me so furious, because it's like, you did this.

54:34This is the world that you built.

54:35This is the fruit of the world that you built.

54:37You can blame the children all you want.

54:40You can blame the young adults and say that this generation is just not devoted to God.

54:46But this is the product of the world that you built.

54:51This is the seeds that you sow.

54:53This is the, you chose to make it artificial.

54:59You chose to allow prophets who are clearly just fabricating a bunch of stuff to be elevated points of authority

55:09within the community.

55:10You chose to look the other way when individuals were fabricating testimonies and people like, what's his name, Sean White

55:21or Todd White were doing corny magic show tricks of trying to keep the legs even.

55:32Like, this is the, if you do things like that, if you allow this, then the children aren't going to

55:38leave.

55:39Like, they have to.

55:41They have to find a way where they can develop as human beings.

55:45And you are creating a soil that is completely inhospitable to any real virtue, any real development other than this

56:00very specific archetype of someone who is only caring about social cohesion.

56:06That's the only, the only trees that will, will, will, will, will, um, bloom in that, uh, field are, are

56:14those who only care about social cohesion and, um, it's tragic.

56:20Yeah.

56:21And the only thing that I would add to that, uh, using the lengthening legs as the example, when you

56:28do something like this, that is pretty obvious to a young person that this is, this might be a stage

56:33trick.

56:34They're going to think through that.

56:35They're going to think, well, if I were up there and I wanted to fool the crowd, how would I

56:39do this?

56:40They don't immediately go to, this is a supernatural thing they're doing because why are they doing the stage trick

56:45anyway?

56:45Right.

56:46But it goes a little bit beyond that in that young people, the youth will often notice the institutional self

56:54-protection.

56:55So if you've got a guy that's doing this and then you've got another leader who's trying to suppress the

57:00questions before they're asked, the youth can pick up on this.

57:03And they're, they're in tune, man.

57:05They know, they know whenever they're being played because especially those in school, they've been played by some of their

57:11peers in school.

57:12Right.

57:12So they pick up on it and they're like, well, why are the adults acting like kids and not the

57:18good kids in my school?

57:19They're acting like the bad ones.

57:20So the youth pick up on this and it turns into this weird mess that I, you know, when I

57:27was thinking through how are we going to address this conversation?

57:32Why are the youth leaving?

57:33The big, the big takeaway that sums it all up for me is this.

57:37The youth can critically think they have not yet suppressed their critical thinking skills and the adults often have.

57:45So that's really, for me, I think that's the difference.

57:48But anyway, there's so, so much more we talk about.

57:52This is crazy interesting.

57:53And I, I get, I can't tell you how many emails from people asking me, why are all the kids

57:59leaving?

57:59Not just for the Branham group, but for the different groups.

58:03And hopefully this answers it for someone.

58:05Hopefully so.

58:06Awesome.

58:07Well, thank you for doing this.

58:09Yeah.

58:09Anytime.

58:09Thanks, John.

58:10Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

58:13You can find us at william-branham.org.

58:16For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to

58:22the NAR.

58:23Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

58:47For more information, you can find us at william-branham.com.

58:50If we want more information, you can check us out on the web.

58:54We'll see you next time.

58:54And we'll see you next time.

58:55Bye-bye.

58:56Bye-bye.

58:57Bye-bye.

58:58Bye-bye.

58:59Bye-bye.

59:02Bye-bye.

59:03Bye-bye.

59:05Bye-bye.

59:07Bye-bye.

59:10Bye-bye.

59:12Bye-bye.

59:26We'll see you next time.

Why The Next Generation Is Walking Away From Charismatic Movements | Jed Hartley | Episode 586

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