Authority vs Character: What Real Leaders Do When Everything Is on the Line

Workforce Alchemy

What would you do if doing the right thing cost you everything?  In this episode, Rabbi David Lapin breaks down the real test of leadership that shows up when pressure is high, stakes are real, and the consequences are personal.  This is not about theory. This is about the moments that define your reputation, your culture, and your future as a leader.  Drawing from his experience working alongside Nelson Mandela during one of the most intense periods of global change, Rabbi Lapin reveals why authority is often an illusion and why character is the only thing that holds under pressure.  You will learn why leaders don’t fail because they lack intelligence or strategy. They fail because they make decisions based on fear, ego, or self-preservation when it matters most.  One story in this episode reveals what happens when a leader refuses to compromise values, even at the cost of a major deal. The outcome shows the long-term impact of choosing character over short-term gain.  In this episode, you’ll discover:  -Why authority-based leadership breaks under pressure -How to make high-stakes decisions without regret -The concept of the “leadership fingerprint” and how it drives behavior -How ego creates blind spots that damage trust and culture -What it takes to maintain moral clarity when everything is on the line -How to lead with conviction when your role, income, or reputation is at risk  This episode is for: CEOs, business owners, executives, and leaders responsible for people, performance, and culture.  Connect With Workforce Alchemy Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  X / Twitter: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy  Connect with Mason Website: https://masonduchatschek.com/  LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/masonduchatschek/  Connect with Rabbi David Lapin: https://lapininternational.com/  #Leadership #CEO #ExecutiveLeadership #BusinessLeadership #DecisionMaking #CorporateCulture #EthicalLeadership #WorkforceAlchemy

Transcript

00:05Welcome to the Mason Ducatech Show.

00:08And before we jump in, this episode is brought to you by WorkforceAlchemy.com, helping leaders

00:15uncover hidden profit leaks inside of their workforce.

00:18My guest today is Rabbi David Lappin, founder of Lappin International, and a global advisor

00:26who works with CEOs and organizations around the world.

00:30Raised in South Africa and now based in Jerusalem, David helped craft one of the world's first

00:37formal corporate codes of ethics in collaboration with Nelson Mandela's government.

00:44His work focuses on helping leaders grow profitable organizations while building cultures that

00:52are grounded in character, purpose, and leadership identity.

00:56Welcome to the show.

00:58Thank you, Mason.

00:59Great to meet you and great to be on the show.

01:01Thank you for having me.

01:02So you've helped develop a corporate code of ethics during the period when Nelson Mandela

01:08was rebuilding South Africa.

01:10What did that experience teach you about leadership during moments of historic change?

01:16Firstly, I think it gave me an opportunity to see what happens when the pressure cookie is

01:20on and pressure is coming from all sides.

01:23There was economic pressure.

01:24There was social pressure.

01:25There was political pressure.

01:26In every field, the country was feeling the pressure of radical change in a very short

01:32period of time.

01:33So we were able to watch how people function in those situations and what one can do as

01:39a leader to be able to help them navigate that period of time.

01:42I think perhaps the most important thing in working on that particular code of ethics for South

01:46Africa as the new South Africa was emerging was that you need to be able to root your messaging,

01:52whatever your messaging as a leader is, in a system of values that feels indigenous to

01:57multiple cultures.

01:59You're bringing people together and what your message, your message at the end of the day

02:03has to be founded on a belief system, on some values, something you believe in.

02:08Otherwise, it lacks substance and it lacks authenticity.

02:11That means understanding the cultures you're working with and understanding values and how they

02:16work.

02:17I'm glad we're having this conversation because there are business owners and executives that

02:22are going to be watching and listening today thinking that they've got it rough right now.

02:26To their credit, some of them do, but what you've been through and what you've seen is

02:31exponentially more intense and varied than anything most businesses, not all, but most

02:38businesses are dealing with.

02:39So I'm really looking forward to hopefully extracting as much wisdom as we possibly can

02:43from you in today's session.

02:45So you often say that leadership is not just about authority or position.

02:50What is the difference between authority-based leadership and character-based leadership?

02:54I think the important difference is that character is something that you've earned.

02:59It's something that you've built.

03:01It can't be taken away from you.

03:04And people sense that.

03:05They sense it powerfully.

03:06Authority in the sense of status, a leadership position that's given to you, power that is

03:11given to you, is power that's been vested in you by others.

03:15And just as it was vested in you by others, it can be taken from you by others.

03:20And you're not truly a leader.

03:22You're rather a slave to those who gave you your power because they can take it away from

03:26you at any time.

03:27So in trying to hold on to power, which is what most powerful people do, they land up

03:33really serving not the people they're meant to be serving, but serving those who vested

03:38the power in them.

03:40And people feel that.

03:41I think we often underestimate what people sense.

03:46And sometimes they can't articulate what they sense.

03:49Sometimes they don't know exactly what it is.

03:52But if you have a conversation with them, you realize you can't fool people.

03:56You can fool people with what you say, but you can't fool people with the inner energy

04:01that you're projecting.

04:02That's something they feel in their souls.

04:05It's a soul-to-soul thing, human energy.

04:07And it doesn't lie, and it can't be faked.

04:10And if we really knew how much the people around us see into us, I think at times we

04:18would be a little embarrassed and humbled.

04:20That is, people see very quickly, are you somebody who is serving those who vested power

04:25in you?

04:26Or are you somebody who has an inner drive of what's right?

04:30And you're making decisions based on your character, irrespective of the impact of it

04:35on the people who put you in the position you're in.

04:37So I can imagine that you have dealt with many people at that fork in the road where

04:46they feel pressure to comply with what they feel are authority-based leadership expectations,

04:54yet they have their own character-based leadership expectations.

04:58What advice or guidance do you have for people that find themselves at that crossroads?

05:04So in my experience, I'm sure you've seen the same, is we never, ever regret the decisions

05:10we made based on values.

05:12That doesn't mean they always work out well.

05:14I might make a values-based decision that lands up in my getting fired.

05:19I might make a values-based decision that causes me some other discomfort, but I never regret

05:25it.

05:25Whereas the decisions we make in order to satisfy people, our various different stakeholders

05:30in life, even when they compromise who we are at our core, those are the things that

05:36we regret.

05:36I was just speaking to a, just yesterday, in fact, to a remarkable business leader.

05:41He's based in the United States, but he's built a global business.

05:44And his background was, in fact, in the Israeli Navy long before the challenges that the region

05:49is getting through at the moment.

05:50And he got to a point where he completely disagreed with the ethic and strategy that the Navy was

05:57employing.

05:57And he said to them, I'm not doing this.

06:01I'm just not executing on these orders.

06:03You can put me in jail.

06:04You can do what you want.

06:05I'm not doing it.

06:06The result of that decision was that as a very new and shiny and wonderful Navy vessel was

06:13just being commissioned, the commander of that vessel said, this is the person I want

06:18is my number two, the person who could stand up.

06:20And there's so many stories like that.

06:22It's very seldom that when we make a principled decision in the long term, it doesn't

06:27serve us.

06:28But in that fork in the road, as you call it, it's incredibly difficult because all

06:32the short-term benefits are shouting at us.

06:35There's an enormous amount of noise.

06:37The cost of making a values-based decision is shouting at us.

06:42And to be able to do that is hard.

06:44You remember or were aware of that famous Johnson & Johnson Tylenol case study where people

06:51were dying.

06:52Somebody had poisoned these Tylenol capsules and nobody knew why.

06:56Nobody knew why people were dying.

06:58They just knew that people were dying.

06:59And that decision that Johnson & Johnson, that their executive team made on that day

07:04to take Tylenol off the shelves internationally, they believed was going to sink Johnson & Johnson.

07:10They believed this was not in the interests of shareholders.

07:12They believed this was not in the interests of profit.

07:15And the minutes of the meeting show very clearly that they understood that this decision

07:18would be the end of a very great company.

07:21They took the decision, nevertheless, because their purpose was to save lives and improve

07:26lives.

07:26It wasn't to cause death.

07:28And that was a hard decision.

07:29There again, it became one of those famous business school case studies.

07:34I remember that.

07:35That was a long time ago.

07:36But I remember it.

07:37It was a long time ago.

07:38It's still studied today.

07:39Of course, Johnson & Johnson has morphed into a different kind of a business today.

07:42But it doesn't matter.

07:43The human reality of those moments, which are studied in business schools until today,

07:49are really an example of some of those difficulties.

07:52Another one was South Africa itself, where F.W.

07:55de Klerk, who was the president of South Africa just before Nelson Mandela, negotiated himself

08:00and his party out of power in order to hand over to the ANC and to Mandela.

08:06I don't know if that's happened in history before, that a leader who has power actually

08:12sits down and negotiates himself out of power because that's the right thing to do.

08:17And I had conversations with F.W. de Klerk about that decision-making process and how hard

08:23it was and how much pressure he came under from his own people not to do it.

08:26You talk about something called the leadership fingerprint.

08:30What does that mean and why is it so important for leaders to understand their own?

08:35Because what specifically differentiates one individual from another mason is not, from

08:40a values perspective, is not so much our values.

08:43I did some really interesting research when I was writing Lead by Greatness and discovered

08:49that the pope and criminals in prison have the same values.

08:55That's not what differentiates us.

08:57We all believe—

08:58Can you expand on that?

08:59Run that by me again.

09:00If you ask these prisoners—I'm not talking about a certain type of prisoner, kind of

09:05a gang member.

09:06I mean, there are certain people whose values are all messed up.

09:08But most of them—the way I test values is not what do you believe is good or right and

09:13wrong.

09:13How would you want your children to grow up?

09:16Would you want them to grow up like you or different from you?

09:19Would you like them to grow up honest or cheating and lying and stealing?

09:23They all want their children to grow up as upright people.

09:26And when you analyze what values it is that they would want to teach their children, they're

09:34not so different from a great person or a person of faith or whatever.

09:38That's not where we differ from one another.

09:40And different cultures—we've worked with tens of cultures around the world—there's

09:44no difference in the values.

09:45The difference is in what I call value drivers, the values for which you're willing to pay

09:52an uncomfortable price in order to uphold.

09:56So you and I might both say we believe in honesty, we would like our children to be honest,

10:00we aspire to honesty, it's important to us.

10:02But when it comes to filling out a tax form, you and I might have different standards of

10:06what we consider we're willing to reveal, what we're not willing to reveal, and it's

10:10not necessarily based on honesty.

10:12So the price we're willing to pay in order to uphold our value of honesty, that's where

10:18you and I might differ.

10:19So in understanding the fingerprint, the first thing we look at is not what are your values,

10:24but what are the values you've actually made a sacrifice for?

10:29What are the values you've actually made a tough decision for and lost something just

10:34because it's the right thing to do?

10:35And when it comes to that, we've each only got three or four or five of them.

10:39There are not a whole bunch of them.

10:40And what are some of the most popular ones or common ones?

10:45It's not even popular because everyone is different.

10:47We have done tens of thousands of leadership fingerprints, as we call them, and we haven't

10:52found two that are the same.

10:53So it's not really a question of popular.

10:56It's really a question of it could be the popular values, but are you willing to make

11:00it make a sacrifice?

11:01So for one person, family might be a value driver.

11:04I will put my family before anything.

11:07I will make difficult decisions.

11:08I will lose job opportunities.

11:10I will refuse immigration, whatever it might be.

11:14And for another person, yes, I love my family.

11:16They're incredibly important to me, but my career comes first, and my family understands

11:21that and supports that.

11:22So for one person, family is a value driver.

11:25For the other, it isn't.

11:26And you'll get things like fairness and integrity and kindness and honestly, all the regular value

11:32drivers, but actually what lands up being in that short list of value drivers is quite

11:37specific to the individual.

11:39And we ask you when we do this work is to go really deep in defining it, not just fairness,

11:43but what does fairness look like for you?

11:45What does unfairness look like for you?

11:47What does kindness look like for you?

11:49What is unkindness?

11:49Respect.

11:50We find many people have got respect as a value driver, but if I ask them, what makes

11:55you feel disrespected, you and I could answer that question in radically different ways

12:00because of who we are as people.

12:02So respect is the value driver, but we have to get more nuanced and we have to get more

12:06detailed about what that really looks like for you or for me.

12:10And that's where the differences between people lie.

12:12So it's important for a leader to know what those value drivers are and how he or she trades

12:18them off because value drivers often conflict with each other.

12:22So you and I might, or I might believe both in kindness and in honesty.

12:27And now I've got a situation where if I'm going to be honest with you, I'm going to

12:30have to be unkind.

12:32If I'm going to be kind to you, I'm going to have to be diplomatic, which means I'm

12:36going to have to lie.

12:38And how we trade these off, is honesty more important to me or is kindness more important

12:44to me?

12:44That's where we differ.

12:45And the leader needs to know that when he's got that very clear and his or her leadership

12:50fingerprint is clearly mapped out and articulated, then decision-making in situations of very

12:56difficult dilemmas is easy and quick.

12:59It's clear what I have to do.

13:00Absolutely clear.

13:02I don't second-guess myself and I don't have regrets.

13:04I have confidence and I'm able to function with authenticity and people feel it.

13:09They feel the authenticity.

13:10They feel the commitment to values and they feel that it's coming from a deep inner place,

13:14not just some external pressure that's driving me to make a decision A or B.

13:19I think you're hitting on something that's very important because once you understand

13:23what your values are and what has guided your decisions in the past, you can take a look

13:27at what outcomes that's delivered and where you are and say, okay, I am where I am because

13:33of the choices I've made using the value filters that I have created.

13:36But I also recognize that if I'm not where I want to be or the outcomes are causing me

13:41pain or let's say they're causing me pain, then I have the power to rearrange some of

13:47those and decide that, hey, health and fitness might not have been very high in my values and

13:52family may have been very, very high.

13:54But if I have neglected my health and fitness to the point that I could be very, very unhealthy

13:59and meet an untimely passing, then because of my own decisions and poor health choices,

14:05then I might choose to make that a much higher priority because I care about my family.

14:10And I can take a look at that.

14:12So I think the nice part about what you're saying about the values is I can see how you

14:16can have a choice about what you want them to be and why one is above the other and make

14:22improvements where necessary in your own leadership style.

14:25You're touching on something interesting and it's not quite as you've described it.

14:28So we certainly, I believe in the work that we do is you don't have that much of a choice

14:32of your values.

14:32By the time you're looking at your, at your fingerprint, they're pretty set.

14:36You've got to discover them.

14:38What do you, I want to push back on you a little bit on this one because it'll help you

14:40understand

14:41this is, this is my process of learning because if my values are one, two, three, four, five,

14:47six, seven, eight, nine, and 10, and they've served me well.

14:50And I find out that because I have placed whatever I've placed at value 10, I'm suffering in

14:58one part of my life that is unacceptable.

15:00Whether let's just say I put money management as number 10, and I've got nine things that

15:07are more important than financial management.

15:08And all of a sudden I'm in bankruptcy.

15:11I owe everybody money.

15:13It's a cause of stress.

15:14It's harming my relationships with everyone else.

15:16Clearly leaving that value at financial management at number 10 is not healthy moving forward.

15:23I need to make some change.

15:25So I might choose to move that up so that things can get better.

15:30And I might move something else down a little bit.

15:32I'm not saying probably drastic, but enough that I can make different choices to say,

15:36this outcome is no longer acceptable to me anymore.

15:39I have not valued this as much as I should.

15:43And I can make a conscientious choice to value it higher.

15:45What's wrong with my thinking there?

15:47There's nothing wrong with the thinking other than that.

15:50The reason we call it a fingerprint is because it is so embedded in the way we've lived.

15:54And it's not just a matter of changing this and changing that.

15:58Usually, in the example that you've given, what usually is happening is I'm not living

16:03my values.

16:04Now, let us say, for example, that health is not one of my value drivers.

16:09That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be committed to health.

16:11There are lots of things that aren't a value driver, which are important in my life.

16:15And I'm committed to them, and I need to be doing them.

16:17And I need to be analyzing my life exactly as you've discussed.

16:21But I will inevitably find something in my fingerprint that health can be attached to.

16:27It's not that it's missing.

16:29It's just that, so I might say, for example, family is an important value driver, as you

16:34said, but I haven't got fitness as one of them.

16:37But how can I really be true to my family if I'm not taking care of myself?

16:41That's where the self-conversation will take place.

16:44And I truly, rather than moving the values around, so we don't manipulate the values,

16:48sometimes a major life effect, a life event can cause a shift, a divorce or an immigration

16:53or a loss of a job, death in a family, health.

16:56There are things that can cause value drivers to shift around.

16:59But the process of discovering your value drivers is so deep.

17:03We used to do it only by coaching, which we still do, but it's time intensive.

17:07And now we've developed an AI-driven digital tool that helps so that in a much shorter

17:12time, the digital tool probes your life story.

17:16It doesn't ask you what your values are.

17:18It just says, tell me about your life.

17:20Tell me about some of the difficult choices you've made.

17:23Tell me why you made those choices.

17:25And then it will say to you, I think these are your values.

17:28What do you think about this?

17:29How's this sounding?

17:30How's this resonating?

17:31So it's discovered through your life journey rather than sitting down with a pencil on paper

17:36and saying, how would I like my values?

17:38What do I think I believe in?

17:39It's kind of there it is, like a fingerprint.

17:41It's there.

17:42Now just discover it, get to know it, and work with it in the fullest sense possible.

17:48So I know that many successful executives still struggle with their leadership identity.

17:53Why do you think so many talented leaders feel uncertain about who they are as leaders,

17:58especially those who have been doing it for a while?

18:01My experience is that it's not that they're questioning who they are as leaders,

18:05it's who they are as people.

18:06Who they are as leaders is kind of defined in their job description.

18:09So that's often not the issue.

18:12It's deeper than that.

18:13Who am I as a person?

18:14What do I stand for?

18:16And when I look at identity, I tend to look at what are the things you won't do,

18:21not at what are the things you do.

18:23You do all sorts of wonderful things, and there are many, many reasons why,

18:26and we're driven by all sorts of things that drive us.

18:29That's not what's interesting to me.

18:30What's interesting to me is there are certain things that under any circumstance you would

18:35not do, or almost any circumstance.

18:38And there are things that I wouldn't do under any circumstance, or almost any circumstance.

18:42That list could be different for you and me.

18:44What is driving that?

18:46What is stopping me from, that's where my true identity is.

18:51It's the things we don't do, not the things that we do.

18:54And that goes not only to personal identity, but to the identity of an organization, the

19:00identity of a nation, the identity of a community or a religion.

19:05There are certain things that the United States, as a nation, would not do.

19:10Now, the United States is now going through some self-searching.

19:13Are we still so sure about what are the things that we would never do?

19:17But whatever that list of things is that the United States wouldn't do, you could have a

19:21country in South America or in Africa that would do those things without any difficulty.

19:26That's where we differ from one another.

19:29What won't we do?

19:30What won't we stand for?

19:32What are our moral red lines?

19:35You frequently speak about ego as one of the most dangerous forces in leadership.

19:39How does ego undermine otherwise capable leaders?

19:43Because leadership is so much about believing in something worthwhile, believing in something

19:49that matters, believing in something that's bigger than us.

19:52And again, that's an energy that people feel around a leader.

19:55This is somebody who's really passionate about this big thing, whether it's the organization

20:00they lead, or it's the nation they lead, or it's their religion and faith, or whatever

20:05it is.

20:05They really are passionate about this, and it's something bigger than that.

20:10Ego puts themselves back at the center of the story.

20:13And you now start making decisions out of self-interest rather than out of purpose.

20:18And there's nothing as ugly as decisions that are made out of self-interest.

20:23And again, people feel it.

20:24And it's seldom that those decisions are right for the bigger cause and even for oneself.

20:30The decisions we make out of pure self-interest with no bigger sense of meaning are seldom

20:36the right choices because they're not balanced.

20:40So what are some of the most common leadership blind spots?

20:44I think those two questions that you've just asked, I think, are so closely linked, Mason.

20:49I think, you know, in the Bible, it says that bribery blinds the eyes of wise people.

20:57It's not a function of wisdom.

20:58No matter how wise you are, it's not about wisdom.

21:00It's about blindness.

21:01You used a great word.

21:02What are the blind spots?

21:04A blind person is not necessarily, or at all, an unintelligent person.

21:08One can be a super intelligent and talented person and yet be blind.

21:14And so it is when it comes to blind spots.

21:16You can be super intelligent and very talented and a great leader, except for the blind spots,

21:21things that you just cannot see.

21:23And it's usually around self-interest because that's what bribery is.

21:27Bribery is, you know, in the simple sense of the word, there's some money in it for me,

21:32but it doesn't have to be money.

21:33It could be recognition, whatever.

21:35It doesn't matter.

21:36The moment it's about me, I run the risk of making bad decisions.

21:41I run the risk of making bad choices and that ability to be able to rise above the self

21:47and to be able to look at something that is bigger than me and make the decisions with

21:52that bigger idea in mind helps me stay stable and true and authentic.

21:58I think that is, I'm just going to be real and say this, but I think that is a struggle

22:02for a lot of managers and executives in business all across the world right now, because there

22:09may be something that the business needs that's really good for the business, but it might

22:14not be good news for them.

22:15It could be a threat to their job security.

22:17It could be a threat to their promotions.

22:18It could be a threat to their raises.

22:20It could be a threat to their reputation, whatever it is.

22:24And you understand why.

22:26I mean, someone in a job could sit there and say a salesperson calls on them and clearly

22:33it would be a huge benefit to the company or to the owner of the business, but it might

22:38have a negative impact or cause uncertainty or fear or loss for that particular manager.

22:44You understand why, but a lot of those folks will never let that message see the light

22:49of day.

22:49They'll do everything they can to keep it down.

22:52And if you have one person that does that, that's one thing.

22:54You got a whole bunch of people doing that.

22:56Then by default, the business is a shell of what it could be.

22:59Totally, Mason.

23:00And that's why in our whole philosophy and in our consulting practice, personal development,

23:06leadership development, and business strategy are all taught as one concept.

23:12Because once you start pulling that apart, you start hitting exactly what you described.

23:17We're talking about individual greatness.

23:19I need to be a great human being.

23:20This struggle of not being blind to self-interest and being able to rise above it is the struggle

23:25every human being has.

23:27It's not even leadership.

23:29It's just the struggle every human being has every single day of their lives.

23:33Am I coming from a place of fear or from a place of what I call heroic decision-making,

23:38doing something for a bigger good?

23:40And our natural instinct is fear-driven.

23:43Our evolutionary development is all protecting ourselves from the things we fear.

23:49So to be able to overcome fear, and that doesn't mean we don't feel afraid, afraid of losing

23:56a job, afraid of rejection, afraid of all sorts of forms of loss.

24:00Of course, we feel those fears, but to be able to put that aside and say, yes, I feel

24:04afraid and tough, there's still the right thing to do.

24:09Early in my career, I was working for an international trading campaign.

24:12I was sent to negotiate a very big deal.

24:15And they sent me, although I was very young and inexperienced, because we had the deal

24:20wrapped up before the negotiation.

24:22We knew we had the lowest price.

24:24We knew we had the best quality.

24:25We knew it was a cold deal, a massive cold deal.

24:28And it was just a formality.

24:29We had to go through a bidding process, and it was just formality.

24:32We knew we had it.

24:33When I got to the other country in which we were negotiating, it became clear that some

24:37bribes needed to be paid.

24:40And I knew I didn't have to pay the bribes, firstly, because I and my company didn't do

24:44that.

24:45And secondly, because we didn't need to.

24:47We had the best product, and we lost the business.

24:49And it was a serious loss for my company and for the country, in fact.

24:54It was a major exporting item.

24:56And when I got back to the office, I was afraid.

24:58I was afraid of the conversation I was going to have to have with my CEO.

25:01And he came into my office before I had a chance to even go to him with his hands stretched

25:06out and just said, I want to thank you for what you did.

25:08You saved the reputation of our company, and I don't care what it costs.

25:12To me, that's much more important.

25:14And that was a very early lesson in the challenge of, I thought I was going to lose a job.

25:20I thought I'd lost a lot of money for the company, which I had.

25:23I thought I'd lost an opportunity for South Africa, which I had.

25:26It all worked out fine in the end.

25:28In the end, everything was great.

25:30Everything was fine.

25:31But in the moment, it's terrifying.

25:33And that ability to look at oneself in the mirror and say, this is my fingerprint.

25:38This is a person of this fingerprint, a person of these values doesn't do X.

25:44That's what I love that.

25:45Because by contrast, I also know, and there are fewer and further in between, but I know

25:53executives who have made a lifetime commitment to personal and professional development.

25:58And they know their value and that they have skill set.

26:01And if they're in an environment that doesn't value their values, then they're okay.

26:06If having to do that is a threat to my job, then I don't want this job.

26:10I can land anywhere and do anything with anybody.

26:13It doesn't have to be here.

26:15I'm going to do what's best for the company and what's in alignment with my values.

26:18And if there's a conflict there, then I'm out of here.

26:20And they don't miss a beat because they know that they know their worth, they know their

26:26value and they know their values.

26:29But those are people who have really focused on personal and professional development their

26:33whole career and have developed unique skill sets and developed amazing networks to the

26:39point that if they became available, people would snag them up for the exact reasons I've

26:43just described, because they are rare, unfortunately.

26:47Exactly.

26:47Mason, when those people walk into a room, you feel their presence.

26:50You do.

26:51There's an energy, a person, a confidence, a moral straightness.

26:55You feel that person.

26:56That's that inner energy that I'm talking about.

26:58And so when that person asks you to do something or suggests a direction, you don't need a lot

27:05of persuasion.

27:06You just follow them because that's leadership.

27:08And I felt that with Nelson Mandela.

27:10Nelson Mandela could just indicate by an expression on his face that something pleased him or didn't

27:16please him.

27:16And everybody around him would rally and make sure that that happened just because you knew

27:21where it was coming from, that it was coming from a very deep, good place.

27:25If you could describe him using five words, what would they be?

27:30Dignity is a word that comes to me, and it's a word that was foundational to one of the important

27:36conversations I had with him.

27:37That sense of inner dignity, that he didn't need the recognition.

27:43He'd lived in prison long enough to find dignity without recognition.

27:48So that when he came out and became an international leader, the recognition just embellished him.

27:54It just amplified him.

27:55But you could feel he doesn't need it.

27:58And if you speak to the people who worked for him, the housemaids in the presidential

28:02residence, he used to make his own bed every day just to stay focused on that fact.

28:07I don't need all this.

28:08It's not, it doesn't affirm my, it's talking about identity again.

28:11My identity is independent of the role I'm playing.

28:14I can in fact only play this role because of being secure in who I am and into what my

28:20identity is.

28:21So I would say that that dignity, that sense of self is what was most powerful to me when

28:26I met him.

28:27Are there leadership principles that seem to work across every culture and every environment?

28:32Most of everything we teach does because, and that was very important to me.

28:36So for example, as you know, I'm a rabbi, but I don't think we have one client who's Jewish.

28:41We have members of every faith and people who are not members of any faith.

28:45People who are agnostic and atheistic.

28:47It just doesn't matter because what I deal with is human energy.

28:51And yes, I believe that we have souls.

28:53I don't understand a soul necessarily as a religious idea.

28:57It's just that very deep inner source of energy.

29:00The place from which we generate that energy is our souls.

29:03And everything I teach is about accessing that, being in touch with it, knowing it, and

29:10projecting it, and using your inner energy to create movement.

29:14Movement doesn't happen without energy being applied.

29:18If you want to move an object, you've got to apply energy to the object.

29:21And so it is with people.

29:22If you want to move people, inspire people, it can only be done with energy.

29:26It can be done either with brute force energy, threatening people and punishing people.

29:31You can do it with physical energy, or you can do it with inner energy.

29:34And sometimes you need a combination of both.

29:37And our work is all about how to access your own inner energy and to be able to use that

29:42in how you move other people.

29:44So it's agnostic to faith or to culture.

29:46Okay.

29:47How can a leader discover or define the deeper purpose of a company beyond profit?

29:52It's quite a complex process, but a very exciting one.

29:55And one that in our experiences yield unbelievable innovation.

29:58Apart from the intellectual challenge of let's figure out our purpose, the process itself

30:04has spun off enormous innovation.

30:07So what it really is, is I always believe, Mason, that the chances of you and I meeting

30:13on this day as we are, having this conversation, if I would have said 20 years ago, what are

30:19the chances that you and I would have this meeting?

30:22I don't think we would have bet on it.

30:24I don't think we would have given it any odds at all.

30:26The chances would have been close to zero, if not zero.

30:30So when people come together, now you're talking about a group of people, maybe five or six

30:36people who start a business, or maybe 25,000 people who are in a business.

30:41When people come together, each one of those people is unique.

30:44There's not another you.

30:45There's not another me.

30:46So if there are 10 of us, what is the level of uniqueness of those 10 people?

30:53What chance is there that somewhere else in the world, there's a similar group of 10?

30:58It's zero.

30:59We might be 10 people with similar educations.

31:02There might be 10 people that have the same skin color, are of the same gender, whatever.

31:07But there are not going to be 10 people who think and feel the same ways and have the

31:12same values.

31:13So what we do is we look at what makes this business who we are.

31:16What brought these people together?

31:18What do we have among us that is so unique?

31:21What are our capacities?

31:23What are our capabilities as a group of people that others don't have?

31:26What are the things that we believe in and that we're passionate about?

31:29And what could we do for the world with this that we have, including our tangible assets

31:36and our intangible assets?

31:38If we put our tangible and intangible assets together, what could we do for the world that

31:43others probably could not do as well or in the same way?

31:46And who are the people that would most benefit from what we do?

31:50When you put all that together, you start understanding we have come together for a purpose.

31:55So again, it's not like a mission where we sit around the table, we get a consultant,

31:58and let's decide what our mission is.

32:00Just as I said to you with fingerprint, you discover your value drivers, not things you

32:04choose.

32:05So you discover your purpose.

32:07You don't choose a purpose.

32:08You already have one as an individual.

32:10You have a purpose and you know what it is.

32:13If we get together as a group of individuals, we can discover why we've come together and

32:18what our purpose is.

32:19When leaders are under intense pressure from investors, boards, or markets, I know this is

32:26easier said than done, but asking for insights here, how can they maintain their moral clarity

32:31and not compromise their character?

32:33It's such an important question.

32:35A leader needs to understand that they are kind of a shock absorber.

32:39They have to deliver value upwards.

32:42They've got to deliver metrics.

32:44They've got to deliver bottom line.

32:46They can't go to their shareholders and say, hey, we're busy with this purpose and value

32:51stuff.

32:51Don't worry about the money.

32:52It's going to come one day.

32:54They've got to deliver returns.

32:57These people have taken risk.

32:58They've put money into the organization.

33:00And as a leader, if I'm the CEO of a company, my job is twofold.

33:05Number one, to deliver returns to the people who've taken risk.

33:10Number two, to make decisions in the business that are not driven by those returns, but are

33:17driven by the levers, I believe will deliver the returns.

33:22That becomes what's important.

33:24You know, I remember listening.

33:26I've forgotten his name.

33:27You probably know it.

33:29The pilot who landed that plane in the Hudson River.

33:33Yes, I know what you're talking about.

33:34They made a movie about him.

33:36Yes, yes, yes.

33:37And I heard him speaking.

33:38I had a conversation with him.

33:40And one of the most important things, and a lot of the difficulty he had later on with

33:44his company, with the lawyers, was I had to make a decision not in terms of what's good

33:48for the company in terms of saving the aircraft.

33:52I had only one thing in mind, and he said that I was taught by my parents, not even in

33:56my training.

33:57Save lives.

33:58Take care of the lives of people.

34:00It doesn't matter what it costs.

34:01It doesn't matter if the aircraft survives or doesn't.

34:04I've got to take care of the lives of people.

34:06Yes, a CEO needs to deliver value to the shareholders, but then he becomes the shock

34:11absorber, and as he pushes down into the organization, it's about doing that which is

34:17strategically and ethically the right thing to do.

34:19Now, if I've made a mistake as a CEO, and I believe A, B, and C is going to deliver

34:26X,

34:26Y, and Z, and so I drive my company to do A, B, and C, and it doesn't deliver X,

34:32Y, and Z, then I failed as a CEO.

34:34I've made some wrong decisions.

34:35I'm fascinated to hear your answer to this question, because you've had amazing life

34:41experience.

34:42You've interacted with amazing human beings.

34:45If there was only one piece of advice that you could give to anyone listening today, what

34:52would it be and why?

34:53Well, I would think I would fall back on a comment in the Talmud, which is probably the

34:58source of most of what I know, and that's the accumulation of thousands of years of wisdom.

35:03A wise person is one who learns from every individual, and my advice would be become a

35:10student.

35:11Become a student of every person you meet, and engage with them as student, not as boss,

35:17not as professor, not as expert.

35:20Engage with every person, whether it's the sweeper, or it's a scientist, or a PhD, or a

35:26billionaire, it doesn't matter.

35:28Engage with them as a student.

35:29I can learn from you.

35:31I want to learn from you.

35:32I have the curiosity.

35:33I want to discover what it is, what secrets you hold that I don't know, and how do I unpack

35:41that?

35:41How do I elicit that from you?

35:43And to come with a sense of, I want to learn from you.

35:46I want to be your student.

35:48There's no more engaging way for two people to interact, because when somebody wants to

35:55learn from you, you open up.

35:57Everybody wants to teach.

35:59Everybody wants to share their expertise and their knowledge.

36:01It's the strangest thing.

36:02You would think we want to hold on to it, but people don't.

36:05People actually want to share their knowledge with people who are humble and truly curious.

36:11I don't want to share my knowledge with somebody who wants to steal it and take it away and

36:15do his own thing and take credit for it.

36:17That doesn't inspire me.

36:18I might share knowledge with that person.

36:20But when I feel this is really a person who wants to know what I know out of a desire

36:25to

36:25learn, out of a sense of humility and curiosity, all I want to do is teach.

36:31If Nelson Mandela, after experiencing what he experienced and learning what he learned,

36:38could go back in time and offer one piece of advice to the younger version of himself

36:44from the position of teacher who has traveled the path that he traveled, what advice do

36:49you think he might have given to his younger version of himself?

36:51It's so interesting, Mason, because I heard a young kid ask Nelson Mandela exactly that

36:57question.

36:58What advice would you now give to me, kind of going back in your life?

37:04And his answer was, his actual answer, I mean, I can surmise what he might say, but what he

37:08actually said was, if I could become president of South Africa, there's nothing you cannot do.

37:17And just always remember that, there is nothing you cannot do if you put your mind to it.

37:22So I know that's one of the things that he did say.

37:25Another thing which he said to me, not the same kind of question, but I know how important

37:29it was, was just understand nobody can take your dignity away from you.

37:33You can give your dignity if you choose to, and that's your problem, but nobody can take

37:37it.

37:37Dignity, they can disrespect you, they can offend you, but you can choose not to be offended.

37:43You can choose to hold on to your dignity, you own it, and you've created it, and you've

37:48built it, it's yours, it can't be taken from you.

37:51And when you get to that point, I think there's such a sense of security that a lot of the

37:56fears we talked about earlier become less important and less threatening.

38:00If people want, first of all, thank you.

38:02Second of all, if people want to know more about you, the work you do, what are the best

38:06ways for them to engage with you and your company to learn more?

38:09Thanks for asking, Mason, and thanks for your questions.

38:11Your questions are great, and the conversation's been amazing.

38:15To engage with us, firstly, we have a website, www.lappininternational.com, www.lappininternational,

38:21one word, .com.

38:23I'm on LinkedIn, and Lappin International is on LinkedIn, so that's quite a good place for

38:29engagement.

38:30And anybody is very free to send an email address to me or just to the organization at info at

38:38lappininternational.com, and that email will be attended to very speedily.

38:42Thank you so much.

38:43It's been an absolute pleasure to have you, and I hope that everyone else watching and

38:48listening enjoyed it as much as I did.

38:50Thank you so much.

38:52Thank you, Mason.

38:53Thank you, Mason.

38:54Thank you, Mason.

38:55Thank you, Mason.

38:56Thank you, Mason.

38:57Thank you, Mason.

38:58Thank you, Mason.

38:59Thank you, Mason.

39:00Thank you, Mason.

39:01Thank you, Mason.

39:03You

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