- 7 weeks ago
This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy. We help business owners, CEOs, and executive teams improve hiring, engagement, and retention while uncovering hidden people-related profit leaks inside everyday operations.
If you are struggling to stand out in a noisy marketplace, align your team around a clear message, or convert more prospects into loyal customers, this episode is for you.
Today, Mason sits down with brand strategist and story building expert John Elbing, creator of the Story Building Methodology. Instead of polishing the wrong message with better marketing, John teaches leaders how to build the right story from the ground up by starting from the customer’s standpoint.
His framework is transforming how founders, marketers, HR leaders, and executive teams create clarity, alignment, and messaging that drives action.
🎯 What You Will Learn in This Episode
The critical difference between storytelling and story building
Why most companies are telling the wrong story better
The 3 stages every customer goes through before they buy
Recognition
Perception
Projection
How to flip your messaging from “look at us” to “we understand you”
Why narrowing your niche increases revenue and engagement
How to validate your brand message before launching a campaign
How story building strengthens internal alignment and company culture
Why HR leaders must think like marketers in today’s talent war
How AI can support messaging without replacing authenticity
If you lead a company, run a sales team, manage HR, or are responsible for growth strategy, this conversation will change how you think about communication.
🚀 Why This Matters for Business Owners & CEOs
Your customers are overwhelmed.
Your employees are filtering out noise.
Your prospects are actively looking for reasons to ignore you.
Facts and features are forgettable. Stories are memorable.
When your brand story creates recognition, builds trust, and helps your audience envision success, you shorten sales cycles, improve engagement, and build long-term loyalty.
This is not theory. This is practical strategy you can apply to your website, pitch deck, recruiting messaging, sales conversations, and leadership communication immediately.
📘 About John Elbing
John Elbing is a brand strategist, speaker, and creator of the Story Building Methodology. His work helps companies clarify who they serve, what they stand for, and how to communicate in a way that drives action and alignment.
Learn more about John and his book:
👉 https://standpoint.ch
💼 About Workforce Alchemy
Workforce Alchemy works with business owners and executive teams to:
Improve hiring precision
Increase employee engagement
Strengthen retention
Align leadership communication
Reduce costly people-related mistakes
If your workforce is your largest investment, your strategy should reflect that.
🌐 Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/
🔔 Subscribe for More Executive-Level Conversations
If you are struggling to stand out in a noisy marketplace, align your team around a clear message, or convert more prospects into loyal customers, this episode is for you.
Today, Mason sits down with brand strategist and story building expert John Elbing, creator of the Story Building Methodology. Instead of polishing the wrong message with better marketing, John teaches leaders how to build the right story from the ground up by starting from the customer’s standpoint.
His framework is transforming how founders, marketers, HR leaders, and executive teams create clarity, alignment, and messaging that drives action.
🎯 What You Will Learn in This Episode
The critical difference between storytelling and story building
Why most companies are telling the wrong story better
The 3 stages every customer goes through before they buy
Recognition
Perception
Projection
How to flip your messaging from “look at us” to “we understand you”
Why narrowing your niche increases revenue and engagement
How to validate your brand message before launching a campaign
How story building strengthens internal alignment and company culture
Why HR leaders must think like marketers in today’s talent war
How AI can support messaging without replacing authenticity
If you lead a company, run a sales team, manage HR, or are responsible for growth strategy, this conversation will change how you think about communication.
🚀 Why This Matters for Business Owners & CEOs
Your customers are overwhelmed.
Your employees are filtering out noise.
Your prospects are actively looking for reasons to ignore you.
Facts and features are forgettable. Stories are memorable.
When your brand story creates recognition, builds trust, and helps your audience envision success, you shorten sales cycles, improve engagement, and build long-term loyalty.
This is not theory. This is practical strategy you can apply to your website, pitch deck, recruiting messaging, sales conversations, and leadership communication immediately.
📘 About John Elbing
John Elbing is a brand strategist, speaker, and creator of the Story Building Methodology. His work helps companies clarify who they serve, what they stand for, and how to communicate in a way that drives action and alignment.
Learn more about John and his book:
👉 https://standpoint.ch
💼 About Workforce Alchemy
Workforce Alchemy works with business owners and executive teams to:
Improve hiring precision
Increase employee engagement
Strengthen retention
Align leadership communication
Reduce costly people-related mistakes
If your workforce is your largest investment, your strategy should reflect that.
🌐 Website: https://workforcealchemy.com/
🔔 Subscribe for More Executive-Level Conversations
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00This episode is brought to you by Workforce Alchemy, helping leaders improve hiring,
00:11engagement, and retention while uncovering people-related profit leaks hidden in everyday
00:15operations. Today, we're diving into one of the most powerful forces shaping successful
00:22communication. Not just a good story, but a story that actually lands. Our guest is John Elbing,
00:28a brand strategist, acclaimed speaker, and creator of the story-building methodology.
00:34And it's a system that helps companies flip the script and craft narratives from the customer
00:39standpoint instead of their own. His work is the backbone of a number one international best-selling
00:46book that's changing how marketers, founders, and leaders align their teams, sharpen their messaging,
00:52and build stories that stick. So whether you're struggling to be heard above the noise
00:57or you want your message to move people, you're about to learn how to build narratives that get
01:03noticed, remembered, and acted on. Welcome, John. Glad to have you on the show.
01:07Hey, Mason. That's great to be here. It sounds like a lot of fun. And thanks for that intro.
01:12Always nice to hear.
01:13So most people talk about storytelling, but you emphasize story-building. What's the real
01:19difference and why does it even matter?
01:20So I found that storytelling has become such a buzzword. Everyone sort of recognizes that
01:25you need to do storytelling. So there are so many. I mean, you search for storytelling on like Google
01:30and you'll get a million tips and tricks. And I find a lot of it is about how to tell your story
01:36better, how to put a nice coat of paint, how to, you know, light it up. But I find that you don't,
01:42you might not be telling the right story. You'll tell the wrong story better, but that doesn't help.
01:47So story-building, it's a method that I use to help people build the right story. So it's more about the
01:54understanding your customer, taking their standpoint. My, my, my business is called
01:58standpoint. So, cause that's so important and then putting in a storytelling framework. So you
02:03really have a structure that brings people into engagement in a natural way of how they,
02:09they react to an encountering a brand. And then, and then you can make a, you know, a website,
02:14a pitch, whatever it is based on this structure. You have to get the structure first, right.
02:20First, often people jump in and fiddle with the words or the colors or the thing,
02:25but that's not the important part. You really have to first structure your story. That's why
02:29I insist on calling it story-building. Okay. So your journey spans tech, marketing,
02:35and storytelling and story-building. What was the pivotal moment that shifted you toward developing
02:42story-building as a methodology? So I had, there were several moments where storytelling came
02:47into play over my career. Like when I was doing corporate presentations and I would try to memorize
02:53this, you know, the, the presentation I was doing. And then I finally realized if I, I just had one
02:58story per slide and I come up and I tell that story, it all came out so much better. It was way more
03:05engaging than trying to, to memorize it. But then when I, when I got in, I've been independent for 10
03:10years and I've been working with startups and companies. And I haven't, you know, as you said,
03:13background in tech and marketing and finance and all these things. And I've, I've trained in
03:18design thinking and, you know, I have so many canvases with post-its and have teams work on
03:24their strategy. And often they would, their eyes would light up, but then what do you do on Monday
03:29morning? And so I got into storytelling because I realized that yes, it gives you a story, which is
03:35really important, but it forces people to decide who am I talking to? Who am I not talking to?
03:41What is important? What is less important? Cause everything's important. Well, no,
03:46you have to choose what is the one, two things that are really important so that you can,
03:50the less important stuff you'll say later. And, and, and just going through these exercises,
03:55defining the story forces clarity, having a common story, aligning, aligning teams, just the focus
04:03companies come out with a clear focus of who they're talking to and what the promise is. And then
04:08there's a bonus where you get a marketing story that you can use to actually engage. But for me,
04:13it was really this idea that storytelling forces you to be clear.
04:18So I guess it's also helpful internally as well as externally, because internally the story kind of
04:22sets a framework or a fence around what your business's culture is based on the story, because
04:28your employees aren't going to act in a way that's not congruent with the story of your brand.
04:34So sometimes you see where you go on the website and it's a different story than on the, you know,
04:39the posts on social media, and then you meet a salesperson and it's a different story. I did a
04:43workshop with the team and there were 10 people of this company. I said, okay, write down what does
04:47your company does? And they had 10 different stories. And so to go through as a team to, to build that
04:54story, it brings them together. And then they have that. And when they're talking about, when they're
04:59writing a blog post or on social media or talking about a campaign, somehow they inhabit that core
05:06story. And that cohesion is really powerful too. Your customers get what you stand for. Instead of
05:12having a list of products or services or benefits, you, you have this cohesive way of saying, oh, okay,
05:19that's the, who they are. It's like you, you combine everything united into one focal point.
05:24That's the tip of the spear, for example, going into a, to a market. Yeah. And, and it's funny
05:29because I get companies that come and say, you know, we need a brand strategy and kind of refocus
05:36what we're doing. And I say, oh, I have this great tool storytelling where as a bonus, you'll get a
05:41marketing story and others come in and say, we need, we need a marketing narrative. And I said, yeah,
05:46sure. But you also get this bonus of focus and aligning and strategy too. And depending on where
05:52people are in their mind, sometimes it's like a little bit of a Trojan horse where they come in
05:56and then the real benefit is almost the side effects then coming out with the story itself
06:02or something like that. So it's really interesting. It's a managed better, best of both worlds because
06:07you're selling them what they want, but you're also giving them what they need, which they might
06:11not have anticipated ahead of time. Yeah, exactly. So one idea that stands out in story building
06:16is flipping the focus from what we want to say to what the audience needs to hear.
06:22Can you walk us through an example of that shift in action?
06:25So first, I'd just like to say there, I find there are three stages we go through when we
06:29encounter a brand. And the first one I call recognition is you sort of have to recognize
06:34yourself in the brand. If you see something and it's just like, hey, we do this and you're not
06:39sure, is this for a big company, small company? I mean, you're already, you've already,
06:42you know, gone to the net and flipped and switched to something else. If I landed on a website,
06:47maybe you don't see me, but if I landed on a website and it said, we're specialized in
06:51independent consultants with white beards who live in Switzerland who have a cat, I think,
06:56oh, wow, they understand me. I'm not sure what they offer yet, but I'm already engaged.
07:01And so if you can, if you, you know, you're walking down the street, you want to have a drink with a
07:05friend, you'll pass by three cafes without even slowing down and then one will be for you.
07:11So if you can describe your customer, your ideal customer in a way where they feel they can
07:17recognize themselves, they feel seen, you think, oh, wow, they work with people like me. They
07:21understand people like me. I mean, I'm going to be treated well. They love people like me.
07:25They're already saying, okay, then tell me your story. Tell me what you actually do. And often
07:30companies skip that. So then you have to, of course, explain what you do and clarity is important
07:34and trust is important. There's all these other things and I call that perception. But then people will
07:39have that moment where they say, what is it like? There's a kind of moment of doubt. So I absolutely
07:44want to sign up for this new service. That's going to do all these great things for me.
07:48Yeah, but I have to buy it and install it and set it up and use the old system at the same time,
07:53the new one, then this and that. And I say, okay, I will do it, but I'll come back next week.
07:57And then I probably don't. And so if you can explain and show them the experience, how it's going to
08:02happen, sort of find all those little obstacle points and walk them through and then almost
08:08have them close their eyes and say, imagine this wonderful future I'm promising. And they're
08:13already thinking, okay, it's going to happen like this and I have all these benefits and this,
08:17I'm going to, you know, all these things. So they're already pre-living what you're selling to
08:22them. And so if you, with the recognition, you get a better quality pipeline. Somehow the people that
08:31aren't good for you won't recognize themselves and your ideal clients will. So the people that
08:36come in to see your website or whatever it is are already a better selection. But then at the end,
08:42if they're already pre-living what your service or your product does, they're a few steps farther
08:48into engagement. And when they do click the schedule a demo or contact us or start our trial or whatever
08:55it is, somehow they're farther along. So if you can build a story that sort of makes them
09:01recognize themselves, explain what's going to happen and then help them project themselves
09:05into your relationship, that makes it easier. So as I'm listening to you, there's a couple
09:11of things that are jumping out at me. You're talking about recognition first, then perception
09:15and then projection. You are so accurate about the projection or the recognition part. I can think
09:21about my own life experience. I don't think I'm different than most other humans walking around
09:25on the face of the planet. We're so overwhelmed by stimulus that our reticular activating system
09:29is programming us to only pay attention to things that are directly relevant to us.
09:34And I go through life actively looking for ways to identify things that aren't necessary for me
09:39on a professional level. Like, oh, I don't need that. I don't need that. That doesn't apply to me.
09:43That applies to my accountant should look at that or my lawyer should look at that or whatever.
09:49But like I am looking for ways to disqualify things from my universe so that I can focus on the
09:56things that only matter to me right now. So what you're saying makes a lot of sense as far as
10:02being very precise in your initial contact. I also think particularly with outbound communication
10:09to potential customers or existing customers for that matter that you want to keep. But I see a
10:13parallel playing with this also for managers internally communicating because I remember being an army
10:19officer right out of college and they're notorious for putting you in a big room with all of the big
10:24brass and the generals and the colonels and they made us lieutenants sit and listen. And I'm just
10:29sitting there listening for something that is relevant to me as a lieutenant who's dealing with
10:34troops on the front lines. But as I'm listening to what my leaders are saying, I'm filtering through.
10:39That doesn't apply to me. That's the company commander. I don't have to worry about that.
10:42Oh, that doesn't apply to me. That applies to the battalion commander. That's above my grade.
10:46I don't have to worry about that. And I'm literally tuning out what they say so I can only worry about
10:51remembering the things that are important to me. So I think that not only are what you're saying is
10:56valuable to companies in their outreach as far as communication styles, but also internally,
11:02if I am a leader, a team leader or a business owner trying to communicate to my people, I need
11:08to be very conscientious or I should be very conscientious about when I speak to them that,
11:13hey, this is directly relevant to you. I'm not wasting your time or mine. This is directly relevant
11:18to you. Here's what's involved. And imagine what this is like ahead of time. So I could apply that
11:23same methodology that you're talking about internally as a leader to my team members or
11:28employees, just like as a marketer, I can apply those methodologies to the marketplace. That's
11:34that's the impact of what you just said to me right now. So I really appreciate you.
11:39Yeah, that's great. Because so not only well, I would say, I mean, if you want to convince your
11:43spouse to, you know, vacation on the beach instead of the mountains, you can probably have the same
11:48kind of structure too. I've worked with nonprofits. So, you know, B2B, B2C, marketplaces, all kinds of
11:56high tech, all these kinds of services. And somehow that way of, you know, showing your audience,
12:04your interlocutor that you're, that you see them, that you understand them, that, you know,
12:09is really powerful. One thing you said was it's relevant to me now. And that word now, I believe
12:15that my story building method would benefit all the companies in the world, of course, but most of
12:20them, it's not the right time. And I feel that there are moments I call trigger moments where I
12:25feel if a company is about to launch a new product ranges where they're just came out of a merger and
12:30they have to rethink how they talk about what they do there, there are events where if I was in
12:34contact with them at that moment, there are these pivotal moments in the company, it's really
12:39interesting. The company that's been around for 30 years and always been doing the same thing, you
12:42know, they don't think they need to rethink their messaging, even if that messaging is getting old and
12:47probably not getting the engagement they want. I get telephone calls saying, are you happy with
12:51your insurance? And I think, I don't know. I don't care. I think that all the time. But say I just
12:59started a business or I just bought a house.
13:00We must be on the same list.
13:04You know, in Switzerland, you don't really get that many calls like that. That's something,
13:08you know, I hardly get any of these robocalls. But imagine I just started a business and I get
13:12a call from an insurer that says, okay, you just started a business. Congratulations. I'm sure you
13:16have these basic insurance things. But did you know that I'll be interested? Because there's this event
13:24where I think, oh, so if you as a company can sort of think, what are those for your customer? What are
13:30the trigger moments? What are the moments where I can latch on to, to say, you know, hey, will it
13:37increase that chance that you'll think, not only is it relevant to me, but it's relevant to me
13:42today? Again, you'll get way more engaging than just, you know, screaming on, you know, you put a
13:48flyer in every mailbox in the city. Well, most of it won't, you know, most people will just throw it
13:54away. But if you can target the ones that something is happening, you say, young fathers
14:00worry about, you know, what they're feeding to their baby. Well, recognition, you know,
14:04young fathers will say, hey, well, should I worry? And if you're not a young father, you won't,
14:09you won't stop, but they're not your client. And so this idea that there's this identity,
14:14there's the challenge of this whole thing where you sort of recognize yourself, your situation,
14:18and, and you open your ears. It's the co-author of my first book was a guy by the name of Alan
14:24Minster. And he always used to say, and this is another reason why I invited you on to talk about
14:28stories, because people forget facts and figures. I remember sitting in his history class in college
14:35and we had memorized these dates and whatnot. I can't tell you any of those things, but because
14:39I learned a story about what happened first, which caused what happened second, which caused what
14:44happened third, which caused what happened fourth, I can get memory of that story. So I understand
14:50the lesson of history, even though I can't remember the dates. So the story is memorable,
14:55which is why I wanted you on here. But he used to always say, salespeople are always ready to sell.
15:00Prospects aren't always ready to buy. So your job as a business is to stay in touch with those
15:06prospects until they are, you referred to it as nurture marketing, but his, he said, your goal is to
15:11have top of the mind awareness. So when they have recognized a need right now for what you have to
15:17offer, they think of you. And these companies are marketing facts and figures and forgettable
15:22minutiae don't stand a chance, in my opinion, against companies who have embraced a concept
15:27like what you're talking, where you're building stories that people will remember. So when they
15:32are ready, even if it's not now, they think of you.
15:35Yeah, I agree. I agree completely. It's funny how this idea of top of mind, I've had some weird
15:40experience. I went to this conference, one of these jazzy marketing conferences. And so it was
15:46like three weeks away and I signed up and I got three emails a day saying, Hey, you know, you're
15:51coming in this and that and the thing. And it was crazy. It was crazy. And when I went to the
15:56conference and at the beginning of the conference, they said, when people sign up, half of the people
16:00that signed up, we send three emails, one to call, you know, one at the beginning, one a week
16:05before and one the day before. And the other half, we harassed them like hell and you, you know,
16:10people hate it. 90% of the people that are here are the ones we harassed. So we all hate it.
16:17But we were kept top of mind. You know, if you sign up for a conference and then the day before,
16:23you said, Oh, damn, there's the conference. Oh, I don't want to go. And you skip it. But if you've
16:27been, if they've been reminding you twice a day, the whole of the time, you're not surprised. Okay,
16:32you're ready. And you go, you know, sort of like people say, you know, pop-ups, everybody hates
16:36them and people keep doing them because somehow they work. And so there's the, there's the kind
16:41of the evil side of some of this thing where you keep top of mind and you interrupt and all that,
16:47that somehow still works, but sort of you lose your soul a little, I guess.
16:52I was wondering about that the other day. Literally, that was a conversation I had with
16:55another guest and that drives me crazy. I won't even give out my real email address to most of those
17:00things because I know that my trust has been abused so much. I almost feel like Charlie Brown
17:05and Lucy when Lucy's holding the football and Charlie Brown's like, I want to take it. I won't
17:10move it out of the way. And Charlie falls for it again and again and again. Well, I've gotten a point
17:14where I don't fall for it again. I don't believe Lucy. I don't believe that she's going to leave the
17:19football there. She's going to pull it out of the way. And that's how I feel with a lot of marketers.
17:23If I, Hey, if I give you my email in exchange for that, that you're not going to spam me to death.
17:27So I won't even use my real email. I put it on and surprise, surprise. I can go in there after
17:33signing up for one of those. Guess what? I don't look at it for a couple of days and I got 12 emails
17:38sitting in there and I don't tune in. And I was asking one of my other guests. I'm like, why would
17:44they do that? I said, because it not only, it doesn't only repel me, but it makes me mad. It makes
17:48me not want to pay attention. And I'm not saying everyone's like me. I get that, but I knew it, but it has
17:53to be working. Otherwise so many people wouldn't be doing it. And I didn't understand why. And you
17:57just explained it to me. That makes sense. And there's a lot of questions. And it is a large
18:01numbers game too, I guess, but. There's this thing, you know, you've probably received an email saying
18:05from some Nigerian prince is going to give you millions of dollars. Right. And, and you look at
18:09those emails and there are spelling mistakes. It, I mean, it really looks, you know, I mean, it's,
18:16it's a mess and you think, come on. I mean, if you're going to scam people,
18:19you could do it better, but no, because they're really targeting the really gullible. So if they
18:25do it less, obviously ridiculous, a lot of people, more people would be tricked into clicking, but then
18:31they would then have to engage and stuff. And at the end they would, they would bail out. So by making
18:36it completely ridiculous, they only get the really gullible. And so they're actually, their success
18:42rate is better. So you think that they're, they're, they're just stupid, but not at all. They've done
18:47market research and they've maximized their, their return by doing it like that. Cause it,
18:54again, you know, it's the right people that click. I mean, for them in this case.
18:58Well, in a spirit of authenticity, if it was perfect English and they're from another country
19:03where English may not be there, theoretically from another country where English may not be
19:07their first language, you would expect there to be some spelling and grammatical errors in there,
19:11which would be more true to it, which might actually make it more believable, which I guess
19:15there's levels to that game. I mean, usually you can get someone to write English for you,
19:19but anyways, sure. You would think. So in your experience, what's, what's the biggest mistake
19:25leaders make when trying to tell their brand story? Where do most of them get stuck?
19:28Well, well, first of all, there's this, there's this urge to say, we're doing great stuff here.
19:33Look, look, look, look at all this stuff. I mean, our products are great. Our services are great.
19:38And that might be true, but you're sort of caught up in me, me, me, look at me, look at me. And
19:43as another of your guests said, I mean, it's, it's your, your client is the hero of the story.
19:49So one thing I think is this, this idea that if you, you know, again, going through these steps,
19:54if you can show your concern, you know, we get you, we want to help you. We're here to make you
20:01successful. We're not here to brag how we're successful. We want to brag about how well we
20:06serve you. You know, if I say we have the greatest product, you won't believe me, but if,
20:11you know, the people that use our product are the most successful, it's a different way.
20:17And so, I mean, one easy test you can do, you sort of ask your mom or whatever, go onto the website,
20:24sorry to moms, let's say your uncle to say, okay, who do you think this is for? And, you know,
20:29you're selling who knows what, you know, some, you know, some B2B service or something. And if it's
20:35not clear, well, it's not clear to your future customers too. I think, I think companies don't
20:41dare niche down because they're afraid that they'll miss out on that one client. That's not
20:46their perfect target. So if you narrow down, people will think, you know, well, but being meh to
20:52everybody is a lot less interesting than to be really targeted. I mean, if you niche down and we
20:56work for this kind of company in this kind of situation and this kind of thing, yes, that's a much
21:01smaller group, but damn, that, that group will really be interested and will really benefit from
21:07what you do. And usually those groups are big enough. I mean, you don't want to get down into
21:11the, the independent consultant with the white beard and the cat level of, of targeting. But I
21:17think one of the main thing I tell to all of my, be much more clear who you want to work with and
21:22that'll, that'll serve everyone. It'll be better. You know, they'll get more out of it. You'll get more
21:27out of it, more engagement, easier sales process. You don't want people to stumble on you by chance
21:32and then randomly buy you. You want the people that, you know, are the perfect clients and that'll
21:38make a better business. I read a book years ago, and I'm going to say this for the benefit of those
21:43watching and listening. I read a book years ago called Clue Train Manifesto. And what it talked
21:47about, if you remember, it talked about being original and not using language that for lack of
21:55better word is sterile, corporate speak. It sounds great. You're using these fantastic words. You sound
22:02great. You sound smart, but it's sterile. It's boring. It's forgettable. Now, if you're in the
22:07insurance business, it'll probably get you through compliance or the banking business, the compliance
22:11department won't have any issues with it, but it's never going to move your customers. It's never going
22:15to move your prospects. They're never going to read it because it's boring. And if they do read it,
22:19they're going to forget it. And when you're talking about a very specific niche market, I just
22:24want to, for those listening, I want to pile on and add onto that, that make sure that you're true
22:30to your brand and true to your name and your personality and avoid the corporate sterile
22:35language. Because then even if you do get some of the attention, you're going to bore them to death.
22:39They're not going to remember anything anyway. You know, another thing is, I think that if I have a
22:43product, I think my customer must have the problem that matches my product or my service. So I
22:50communicate saying, you know, hey, we solved this problem. But in their mind, it might not be that.
22:55And so I saw this ad for a plumber and it said something like, we're on time. It wasn't saying
23:01we're a good plumber because that's not what people are worried about. When I hire a plumber,
23:06you know, because I have a drippy, my faucet's dripping. I'm not afraid that they won't be able
23:11to change, fix the thing. I'm afraid that I'll have to take the whole day off because I'm not sure
23:16they're going to arrive and they're going to arrive late and stuff like that. So by shifting
23:19and really understanding, you think, okay, those guys get that my time is important. They commit
23:26to arriving on time. That's a sense of respect. And so you already feel, I mean, if they, they must
23:30be good plumbers, you know, I mean, nice people like that. And so, yeah, it's funny to say, instead
23:36of saying, you know, we're the best plumbers, no, we're the ones that respect your time.
23:40Because the reality of it is a certain level, like you said, a good plumber will do the job.
23:43Any good plumber can stop a leak. The value differentiator there is respect for your time.
23:50Thank you for sharing that example. Can you share a case where story building didn't work
23:54or where the team resisted? What did you learn from that?
23:57So sometimes you have a company that has a number of products or services and they sort of say,
24:05hey, we have several customer segments and several products and stuff. There's no way we can have a
24:10story. You know, we have to have multiple stories or things like that. And usually, I guess, always
24:17you get to the point where you can make a customer story, a company story, and then you can have
24:21sub stories for specific brands. One, one interesting example, I worked with the world leader of Garden
24:28Shears, which is here in Switzerland. And they, they actually had two brands without really realizing
24:34they had two brands because after 80 years, they created a website. They're very professional. They
24:39would do professional tools. But after all these years, they created a website and realized they had,
24:44you know, you and me would also buy their tools because they're great for our yard. And they started
24:50to make this kind of high end, you know, leather coated handles and gold plated, you know, this elites
24:56thing. But then they only had one story, sort of, you know, kind of Swiss, Swiss quality and things like
25:02that. So we worked on creating two different stories because it was two different audiences
25:06so that even their resellers had different stories to tell to the workers that were buying real tools
25:13or you and me who wanted, you know, the, the pleasure of having the best tools and things like
25:18that. And so to create stories that contrast each other or contrast your, your competition.
25:27Sometimes I've had a thing to say, you know, you build a first version of a story and they say,
25:30well, that's pretty close to what sort of everyone else says in the market. And then we work back and
25:37say, okay, so how are we different? I think, I think different is important today. There are so
25:42many people out there doing things. They're not saying, will this benefit me? They're saying,
25:46how are you different from all these other people that are trying to sell me the same thing?
25:50And by choosing that, that differentiation, and it can be, we respect your time, but it can be just
25:56choosing an angle where people say, oh, okay. Other people do it this way, but they do it
26:00differently. And that difference can be the clincher. So how does story building intersect
26:06with things like empathy and understanding human psychology, especially when crafting narratives
26:12that feel authentic? So, so what I've developed is there's a number of canvases, you know, sheets of
26:16paper with squares, and you, you talk about your, each of your customer segments and you sort of
26:21thinking who are, they are, what are their, their challenges, their aspirations. Often often, you
26:25know, we, we always talk about what is the problem you solve, but if that problem is actually holding
26:30them back in an aspiration, there's this contrast thing, you know, you would love to do this, but
26:35you'd love to have a beautiful yard, but mowing the lawn when you come home from work is, is too much.
26:41So, and I forget the question, but. Oh, I was talking about how does story building intersect with
26:46empathy and understanding human psychology, especially when crafting narratives that feel authentic.
26:50Yeah. So, so here, what I, what I do is that, so I ask the, you know, what are your customer
26:55trying to accomplish? And they'll say, well, I'm a plumber. So they're trying to, you know,
26:59do plumbing. And then we explore different levels because in some, you know, you're, you're, you have
27:04a B2B service for companies and you think, well, it'll be productivity increase, or it can be,
27:10you know, aligning your team, or it can be being the hero in your company, or it can be, or it can be.
27:16And when you play with all these different levels, it's actually, you're, you're taking
27:20your customer standpoint to say, what am I feeling? What is this thing that I'm trying to do? And then
27:25often companies come out and sort of say, well, you know, it wasn't that first idea I had. I offer
27:31this service, so it must be that. No, it's more complicated than that. And so, yes, it's about,
27:36it's about empathy. It's about, it's really about almost forget your company, forget your product
27:41or service, and let's analyze your customer. You know, what are they trying to accomplish?
27:45When we talk about competition, often people see, well, Coca-Cola is Pepsi because basically they
27:52deliver the same thing. But in people's minds, competition is what else solves their problem.
27:57So you want to go to the movies. Well, the competition is going to a restaurant or going
28:02for a walk or staying home or, you know, and so if you can get into people's minds, often they see,
28:09you know, what they're, the competition is, the other companies that do exactly the same as them,
28:13but no. So it widens this, this sort of view of your customer, what their challenge is, how they
28:20feel about it. There's a lot about emotion. What is the emotion they're talking about? Are they
28:24frustrated with their current situation? And that can be a strong lever before the decision.
28:29I'm going to interrupt you because you just triggered a thought for me for, because a lot of my
28:35listeners have one particular niche of my listeners are going to appreciate this. When it comes to
28:41staffing, and I've always said that human resources is the second sales force for most companies and
28:49that HR organizations should be competing to gain and retain the best talent, just like their sales
28:54team competes to gain and retain the best customers. And a lot of times people in HR will look at their
29:02job of marketing to the community, the opportunities to work for their company.
29:06And they just think, well, if I'm a furniture store, for example, oh, we're just competing to
29:11get employees against that furniture store A or that furniture store B or that furniture store C.
29:16And like you said, they're not competing for that. How do I phrase that? You said they're not just
29:21competing head to head. They're competing with all the other companies who are looking for those
29:26high caliber employees that may not even be in that industry. So when it comes to crafting messages,
29:32for let's say a human resource arm of a company that is trying to market employment opportunities at
29:38their company or just employer marketing, you know, as you're marketing, your company is an employer
29:42is, you know, is more and more important because it's really hard to find some, you know, some of
29:47these skill sets are really hard to find. Some of the attitude, you know, you sort of think you
29:52should hire for attitude, you know, skills you can learn. Attitude is harder. And, and it comes back to
29:58this idea of authenticity. You can offer all the free coffee you want, but somehow it's about people
30:04getting, getting appreciated and have autonomy and all these things. Absolutely. So what are,
30:13what are some of the best ways that leaders can validate that a story will actually resonate
30:17before they spend all their time, energy, resources, launching a campaign or a new brand message?
30:22So, well, first I've found that companies know more about their customers than they think,
30:27because they've always, they sort of say, okay, we're doing a campaign. We'll talk about this
30:31benefit or that benefit or whatever. But when you sit them down and you really, you turn on the
30:37spotlight and say, we'll make you talk. And they come out with surprisingly powerful insights on their,
30:44on their customers. So I often feel that that best guess is surprisingly often pretty good.
30:50But then the idea is to go out and test it. And you can, this idea of this story structure is it,
30:57you don't have to build a website or launch a campaign. You can just go out to go to your
31:02customers and talk and say, Hey, you know, this is, this is what we do. I just want to bounce this
31:07off you. And you can, and I've had companies that will come back and say, you know, some vocabulary
31:11doesn't click. And so, you know, we work on that and they go back and things and you can,
31:16and again, today it is pretty cheap. Launch a campaign with one trigger moment of what kind
31:22of vocabulary thing and see how it works. And that doesn't cost much. And then you can tweak
31:27it. People are always in social media, digital marketing in general, they're looking for the
31:32silver bullet. They think we just need to figure it out and then we're good. And I don't think
31:37that's true. The companies I've worked with that have been the most successful are the ones that set
31:41up a kind of digital marketing factory. So here's 10 ideas. Here's, we think those three
31:48have the best potential. So we're going to test them. The one that seems to work, we're going to
31:52tweak and measure and tweak and measure. And the ones that don't work, we're going to let go and
31:55take the next one and fiddle. And that one that's been working for six months isn't working as well as
32:01before. And we're going to try something else and we're going to work on the thing. And this constant
32:06interaction and measuring the reaction of your customers over time is the thing that works
32:14compared to you do one thing and it works and you think, great, and then you do it again and it
32:18doesn't. And it's tough. There's so many get rich fast kind of tips where if you just do content
32:28marketing or you just do this or go on to TikTok or something, but well, first I think you need the
32:32right story to tell, but then you have to test and measure the reaction. So looking ahead, how do you
32:40see story building evolving, especially in an increasingly digital AI driven world where
32:47attention is so scarce? So first of all, I mean, it's a way of really being customer centric. Everyone
32:52talks about being customer centric, but here you're, you know, you're telling their story and AI can help.
32:58In my book, I have a number of QR codes where you click through and can have extra articles and
33:04videos and things, but also AI prompts to help you work on your story. So it'd be things like put your
33:10website and, uh, and then a prompt that will sort of say, who is this for? Who is the thing, you know,
33:16kind of, and it'll come out and there's sort of, and you think, Ooh, damn, that's, that's not what I
33:20thought. I mean, it's an extra brainstorming partner that can help you. And so little by little,
33:26it helps you understand, but it's not going to build your authentic story. You have to give it
33:32your guts and then maybe it can help you come up with variants of vocabulary or different ways of
33:38saying it, or you have a great long version and you want a shorter version and can help you do that
33:43and things like that. But this idea that you're going to just say, you know, make me the perfect
33:48marketing campaign and then on autopilot. I don't think that's, uh, that it'll all be mush. It'll
33:56all be the same. And if you want to stand out today, it's not about screaming louder. It's,
34:01it's creating empathy and this authenticity and connecting and that, you know, AI isn't that good
34:07with. So if there was only one piece of advice, I know you've got a bunch of valuable opinions and
34:12research and guidance, but if there was only one piece of advice that you could offer people tuning in
34:17today, what would it be and why? So I guess this idea of flipping the switch is the first step
34:22is look at your company from the outside. Too many companies sort of look at what we're doing,
34:27look at the benefits, look at our product, look at the quality, look at the price, look at all this
34:30kind of thing. But, you know, step out the door and sort of say, if I know nothing, what, what do I
34:35see? What do I feel? What is this? What is this outside view? What is the, you know, and then talk from
34:41that outside view instead of talking me, me, me. And the, you know, the British say, you know,
34:47it's all, you know, on the websites, it's we, we, we. And so you're weeing all over your website,
34:52you know, for the, the Brits, it means something else. But I found that.
34:57I get it.
34:59Interesting. Yeah.
35:00So like my friend Shep Hyken, he's a speaker here in the United States and he's an expert
35:05in customer experience and customer service. And he always tells me, think like, think like the
35:09buyer, not the supplier. And I think you're definitely hitting on that. So I really appreciate
35:14your time, your insights. If people want to know more about you, your book, the work you do,
35:20what are the best ways for them to connect with you?
35:22So the easiest is to go to my website, which is standpoint.ch. And .ch is the extension for
35:28Switzerland. So standpoint, like your standpoint, that's the age. And you'll see the, something
35:32around my methodology. You can access the book and things like that, but go to my contact form,
35:38say, Hey, I'm from Mason's podcast and I'll give you, you know, a 45 minute free consultation.
35:45We can talk about your brand. I can see it from the outside and maybe you give you some hints
35:49and then who, who knows, maybe we can work together.
35:52So tell us a little bit about your book. Cause I, I know you were short on time,
35:56but tell us a little bit about your book. What, who did you write it for? And what are the big
36:00takeaways that are going to get as a result of reading it?
36:02So I've been working with companies and startups for, for, for years now.
36:06And so I got into storytelling because it forces you to know, you know, who you're talking to and
36:11who you're not talking to. And so little by little, I created my own method and tweaked it and
36:16information was missing until I finally got to this thing where, where really companies would go
36:21through and have this aha moment. And so, so I finally said, okay, that's worth, worth having
36:27a book. And you know, and if I have a book, maybe Mason will invite me to his podcast. So that was
36:31the main goal. You were a prophet. It worked.
36:35So the book is in sort of two parts. The part of it is going to go through this, this theory of
36:40recognition, perception, projection. So you get an idea of what's going on in your customer's mind
36:45when they encountered your plan. And then really it's exercises that you can use on your own. I mean,
36:50I give away all my stuff where you can just answer a number of questions and things, and it brings you
36:56through until it brings to first your customer, then your company, and then a framework to create
37:02a structure of a story and then a way of writing a narrative. And I find it important to separate
37:08the structure from the narrative. When you say, let's go write the story, you get it caught up in
37:13the vocabulary and the tweak and the thing. It's sort of like you create a website and it's all about
37:18the colors and the animations, but you lose the structure of what you're doing. So really,
37:24once you have that structure, then you can have a short version for a cocktail party, a long version.
37:29Those same sections can be the sections for your website, for your pitch deck. People have then
37:34used that story structure in all different ways, including internally about this is the story we
37:40represent. So if, and so I'm happy that people can just take the book with these QR codes. I see them
37:46sign up to my site so I can see, and some people send me messages and saying, oh, but I didn't get
37:52that kind of thing. And then others, we can, we can work together on it. Cool. Well, thank you so
37:57much for your time and let's get together and do this again soon. Great. Well, thank you. This has
38:03been a lot of fun and have a great day. You too.
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