They Looked Like a Great Team… Until This Happened (The Cost of Avoidance in Leadership)

Workforce Alchemy

What if your leadership team isn’t stuck because of strategy… but because of what no one is saying?  In this episode, Sue Hawkes shares real stories from inside leadership teams where everything looked successful on the surface… but hidden tension, avoidance, and unspoken issues were quietly killing growth.  One leader walked out mid-meeting. Another company had to shrink before it could grow. And in one case, an entire team forced a CEO to choose between them… or a toxic top performer.  This is what actually happens inside businesses that struggle to scale.  If you’re a business owner, CEO, or executive, this conversation will challenge how you lead, communicate, and make decisions under pressure.  ⏱️ Timestamps  00:00 The hidden problem killing leadership teams 01:20 When a sales leader walked out mid-session 05:30 What was really being avoided 08:00 Why avoidance destroys performance 09:15 The moment that changed a company’s trajectory 11:30 “We need to shrink, not grow” 17:00 The brutal conversation that saved a partnership 22:30 The danger of top performers who destroy culture 26:50 What avoidance sounds like in meetings 30:25 Why “nice culture” is toxic 32:35 The question that exposes everything 37:45 Sue’s most important leadership advice  💡 What You’ll Learn  • Why avoidance is a performance killer, not a personality issue • How unresolved tension turns into massive business problems • The real reason leadership teams repeat the same issues • How to create a culture where truth is safe • Why top performers can be your biggest liability • The EOS framework for solving issues fast and permanently  🚨 The Hard Truth  Most leaders think they are protecting their team by avoiding conflict.  In reality, they are creating bigger problems, weakening trust, and slowing growth.  🧠 Powerful Questions From This Episode  • “If we were courageous, what would we do right now?” • “What are we pretending not to know?” • “What problem do we actually need to solve?”  📘 About Sue Hawkes  Sue Hawkes is a CEO, EOS implementer, keynote speaker, and author of Issues: Remove Friction, Fast Track Your Growth, and Ignite Your Greatness. She has spent decades helping leadership teams eliminate friction and execute at a higher level.  🔗 Connect With Workforce Alchemy  Websites:   https://workforcealchemy.com/ https://masonduchatschek.com/ https://suehawkes.com/  📘 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ReverseRiskConsulting  📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/workforcealchemy/  🐦 X / Twitter: https://x.com/WorkAlchemist  🎥 Rumble: https://rumble.com/user/WorkforceAlchemy  📼 Dailymotion: https://www.dailymotion.com/WorkforceAlchemy  📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@WorkforceAlchemist  #Leadership #EOS #ConflictResolution #BusinessGrowth #CEO #Entrepreneurship #CompanyCulture #TeamDynamics #ScalingBusiness #OrganizationalHealth

Transcript

00:05welcome to the mason dukacheck show and before we jump in this episode is brought to you by

00:12workforcealchemy.com helping leaders uncover hidden profit leaks inside their workforce

00:19sue hawks is the ceo of yes and a best-selling author keynote speaker and certified business

00:28coach who has spent decades inside leadership teams helping them actually execute not just talk

00:35about it she's a contributor to forbes fast company inc and entrepreneur and her latest book issues

00:44remove friction fast track your growth and ignite your greatness focuses on eliminating the hidden

00:52friction that stalls growth sue is known for helping leaders confront what they have been

00:59avoiding and turning those moments into real traction sue welcome to the show thanks so much

01:04for having me mason so take me inside a leadership team that you worked with where everything looked

01:12fine on the surface but wasn't what was actually being avoided it's hard to only pick one mason

01:21because it's almost every single one right just give me a good one how about let's start with your

01:25favorite yeah well i'll give you one of them and thank you for the invite um there was this awesome

01:31company um on paper you would want everything they had high profit investment company did incredibly well

01:41and there was some tension on it won't surprise most of your listeners i'm sure between ops and sales

01:48and they were a pretty polite group i'm from the midwest we were talking a little bit about that and

01:55so you know

01:56they were very nice in the room compared to what some i'll just say more um diverse teams from other

02:04parts

02:04with maybe a little more italian on their team might might come at each other so this team was very

02:10amiable and

02:11there was clearly a little tension in a conversation and we broke for lunch and one of the leaders left

02:17it

02:17happened to be the sales leader and to me i was going this is a little bit funky but not

02:22not super

02:23unusual again a little bit of tension and i got they got a text during lunch which was maybe five

02:29minutes later because we were just going to break for a short while and keep going and the sales leaders

02:34told the ceo i'm not coming back i have some calls to make etc etc and we were supposed to

02:40be together for

02:40the whole day so the ceo looked at me and said oh he had some things come up he has

02:46to go manage them

02:47and i was going hmm i don't think those are things um and i said well then we'll end our

02:54day here

02:55because we go as a team in the work i do with eos we do everything together so if he's

03:01got things that

03:02are more important than the work we're doing we'll call it at a half day we'll finish lunch we'll pick

03:07this up in our next session or whenever you guys are ready to confront this and the ceo's face went

03:13white and so he left the room he said let me see what i can do and he walked out

03:18and the texting began

03:20and the rest of the team nervously ate their lunch and left and went to the restroom and all kinds

03:26of

03:26things people do when they go this isn't going the way we hoped it would that we would just carry

03:32on

03:32without that person in the room and so i said let's just take a break the rest of you if

03:36you have

03:37things to do this is going to take a bit so after about 20 minutes the ceo catches me in

03:42the hallway

03:42and i happen to office in the back of an accounting firm at this time and he says he grabs

03:47me by the

03:48shoulders and he says sue we don't do things like this and i looked at him and i put my

03:54arms back in

03:54his shoulders very gently and i said i do and that was he got tears in his eyes and he

04:01said in the history

04:02of our company we do not handle it while it's here and i said well if he doesn't come back

04:07i gotta tell you we're going no further anyway it's just table dressing and that was the the moment for

04:15that team where they got very honest and it was only our second day together or day and a half

04:19at that

04:20point the leader came back and then i just said whatever our agenda was isn't that important the agenda

04:27is this so what do we need to talk about and how do we make it safe enough and that

04:33was some of the

04:34verbiage i used so we can have an honest conversation because no one should feel like they need to leave

04:40and i want you to know you're not wrong for that team's not wrong for giving you space but we

04:46can't walk

04:47away from it and not address it and i will say that was one of the more gentle times it

04:52happened

04:52but that team embraced it so phenomenally well mason that they never turned they never they just went

05:01straightforward into it and it honestly unlocked their ability to go we can do this very gently

05:08very peacefully they're a really collegial team but it was just a moment where their team didn't do

05:14things like that you don't confront it but what was being avoided the tension between ops and sales

05:21the ops leader had said some things that to the innocent observer myself included i was like i

05:26didn't think that was a big deal it was just someone calling into question some things that to me you

05:31have every right to question if you're playing on a team but for them it it was fighting words if

05:37you

05:37will right it was how dare you step over the line into my sandbox and ask about that because that's

05:44not

05:44your domain that's not your turf you you didn't warn me and i didn't come prepped with my answer and

05:49all

05:50that kind of thing which we don't do any of that we're real and raw in the room and i'm

05:54more like

05:55you have every right to ask because you're on a team and so just hadn't practiced that skill of let's

06:02talk about it right now right here without the documents and politicizing it if you will so i i know

06:10what eos is and i've read the book traction for those that are listening or watching could you take a

06:15moment because you mentioned that and someone's like hey what is what are you what are they talking

06:18about eos would you mind giving a quick summary on that for those not at all thank you mason it's

06:23the entrepreneurial operating system which is a system a full set of tools to help you run a

06:29better business if you're an entrepreneurial leadership team with 10 to 250 employees and

06:34it's based on the book traction yes gino wickman's work and there are lots of books around the traction

06:41library but traction is the orientation around vision traction and healthy vision getting everyone on

06:47the same page with where you're going and how you're going to get there traction is that discipline

06:52focus and accountability to execute on that vision for the long term involves numbers for sure for sure

07:00the data component is all scorecard numbers measurables as we call them and then healthy because

07:06the truth that you know being told most leadership teams entrepreneurial leadership teams are not that

07:12healthy i like to say we move people from being a team of functional healthy or functional leaders

07:18to a healthy cohesive functional team because where you go your team goes because that book's not warm fuzzy

07:26fluffy no theory that's that is a practical step-by-step scorecards targets it it's it's not warm fuzzies and

07:37kumbaya it is a playbook for how to implement a system for solid execution strategic execution for sure

07:45so what was the moment in your career when you realized that avoidance was not a soft issue but a

07:51performance killer i think because i've had the great fortune of growing up in an entrepreneurial

07:58family business as well as being an entrepreneur myself and then coaching entrepreneurs it gives me a

08:06360 appreciation in my own body as well as observing enough people that issues left undiscovered untalked

08:15about avoided become problems if you can get them while they're issues while they're hey you and i disagree

08:22or the numbers aren't in the tank or in the hole or if it's our processes aren't working and we're

08:28aware

08:29of it and we can make small course corrections it's a smoother ride it's less disruptive when we let them

08:35invest or they become anchors on your business so i think avoidance is just one of those ways of

08:41i'm trading short-term comfort for long-term pain gotcha so can you walk us through a real conversation

08:51that you facilitated that completely changed the trajectory of a company because i'm betting you

08:57got a whole bunch of those too yeah so there was a company many companies i bet you deal with

09:03some of the

09:03the very same every year comes time to do our strategic planning so we set higher goals even

09:10when we haven't really attained the ones this year we might have missed the mark by some or a lot

09:15and

09:16instead of unpacking why and really being honest the team just goes on autopilot and they set the next

09:22higher goal and this particular team it was their third year with me and they were like well we're gonna

09:29set

09:29the higher goal and between one of the leaders and i we pumped the brakes and i just said okay

09:36well

09:36what makes us think it's going to be different this year because it's our third time at bat and we're

09:42really not hitting it out of the park we're doing okay but we're not hitting what we said why would

09:48we

09:48raise it and what's significantly going to be different what do we have to unpack and we take out our

09:53toolbox to start looking well they churn on this for a while and then the sales leader most courageous

10:00moment this was one of those team moments where you go i wish i could have videotaped this because it

10:05would help every team she said i said we've got to take a break because we were stuck we were

10:10just

10:10spinning saying the same things over and over she said while she was on break she came back and she

10:16goes

10:16i'm going to say something i don't care if i'm unpopular but she said i don't think we need to

10:23grow i think we need to cut our company in half and she said and i might be part of

10:28that downsizing

10:30and i literally would not have predicted that in a million years mason i would not have looked up and

10:38been like somebody's going to walk in here and go the complete opposite direction and in fact very

10:43humbly self-sacrificially and generously said yeah and i might be part of the problem because i'm in

10:52sales and it was the most meaningful conversation we ever had they did decide to downsize they

11:00downsized by not half but it was significant it was probably third of the company it was about a

11:0530 40 person company and it was significant the sales leader was not one of the people that ended up

11:12but they did it in earnest with the people in the room the leadership team had a strong evaluation

11:19of each other and when i say that there was some fighting there was some healthy conflict there was

11:24some unhealthy conflict one of the leaders was not invited to come back it was not her but at the

11:30end

11:30of the day that company went backward and within about 18 months they had doubled and so they went

11:38backward to go forward but it took someone putting the elephant on the table that was

11:44not at all where the conversation was spiraling

11:48see that's one of the things that i like about the eos the eos model is that you have numbers

11:55and

11:55it's when you set goals there you're measured there's accountability for that i had a gentleman on a few

12:01months ago by the name of bryant wright he's a famous coach in missouri he coached eight state

12:06high school cross-country championships and in the last 17 years the worst his boys team has done

12:11is second in the state wow in 17 years and i had him on and we ended up writing a

12:17book together

12:18and i learned a lot from it's called built right w-r-i-g-h-t but i learned a

12:22lot from him and

12:23one of the things he talked about when he said goal setting and realistic goal setting is he would

12:28take his all-state state champion juniors and seniors and when it came time to goal set he

12:34would sit down with them and he'd say okay what kind of times are you looking for what work have

12:40you done how many miles did you put in in the off season and what where's your fitness level now

12:46so

12:46he had an idea of what kind of workouts in length and duration and intensity his athletes could do

12:53so he could basically put together achievable work so they knew what the work was just like

13:00with your eos system you know what the numbers you have to hit he could basically say hey these are

13:04the goals but this is the work that's required to get these goals this isn't fantasy land this

13:09isn't wishful thinking this is the work that's required but what i found fascinating that he did

13:13is he would have freshmen sit in on the goal setting session with the seniors so the freshmen knew

13:20this is the work if you want these outcomes this is the work that you would be able to do

13:24to achieve

13:25that and it's not realistic for a freshman to be able to do that workload because their bodies haven't

13:29adapted and so on and so forth but they know what the next four years of their high school running

13:34career are going to look like and it's like okay well what where can as freshmen where can we get

13:39you

13:39here's the type of work that these guys did when they were freshmen and here's the kind of outcomes

13:45that they got this is the work that's required and you're willing to to put in this kind of volume

13:50and you're willing to put in this kind of intensity or you're not and if you are then these are

13:53the

13:53likely outcomes and those are not and i think that what you do is that with business well you're kind

14:00what i think is so powerful about what you're saying is he established a baseline for what it took to

14:07be

14:07great or greatness as we talked about igniting right right out of the get-go with a freshman so

14:13it's i'm sure it was weeding kids out too who went are you kidding like that's too serious i thought

14:19this was going to be fun um i think mastery is one of those things that people unknowingly like you

14:26want

14:26that result but it's a lot of work and he's setting that bar right out of the gate i mean

14:32that's so

14:33powerful well and you see the future and when they when they won their eighth state championship in a row

14:40which had never been done in the state of missouri

14:43he realized those kids that were juniors and seniors they were in like third grade the first

14:48the first time that that had happened so they had known nothing but success success success success

14:52none of them wanted to be part of the crew that blew it right and when they knew this wasn't

14:59guesswork

14:59like this is what it takes proven history of success so there's like i'm willing to do that i want

15:04to be a

15:04state champion yeah it was it's a very very good culture but i love what you're talking about with with

15:09how you apply those same principles in your work so what what is the most uncomfortable truth

15:15that you've had to deliver to a leadership team and how did they respond so i had to you know

15:22in

15:22thinking about that there was a team so my brother and i both do the same work so he's also

15:28an

15:28implementer and he had a company and i had a company that shared the same ceo visionary as we call

15:35him

15:35but he had one company separate company from the one i had but the the visionary is the same person

15:42well in his company the integrator or what might look like the president or the coo was having real

15:50friction with that visionary which many people did and he was ready to quit and so my brother was

15:57talking to me post his session and said hey i don't know how to deal with this situation because

16:05the two of these guys might need a divorce basically and i said well you got to call him in

16:10a room and

16:10have him have the hard conversation and he was like well would you not mind sitting in because i think

16:17with two of us it'll equal some of the temperature because it was pretty contentious at the time

16:22so we strategically this is pre-pandemic so i say that because we intentionally picked a small room

16:29because some of the dynamics of team conversation are things you can control like an intimate room

16:36so that we are forced to be close and eye contact you know and there's not a lot of space

16:43for gesturing

16:44and moving so we picked a four-person room my brother and i took the heads of the table and

16:49put

16:50them across the thinner part part of the table and right before we started the meeting i just went i

16:56don't want to waste their time they're really highly compensated smart people and so we came in and asked

17:02the question he and i were very aligned but i said do you guys want to be divorced and that

17:07was i just

17:08opened with it was a cold open and the two of them because we had a lot of relationship between

17:14all

17:14four of us they both said yes which was not the answer we thought they were because they came to

17:21have a meeting for a half day with my brother and i so we said okay well then this is

17:27really easy we've

17:28got to get the terms of you know disillusionment so we can get you guys divested and just keep moving

17:34and we aren't attorneys but we can have you get to some talking points well two hours later

17:41they're still bickering and i'm fed up to hear because they can't agree on anything and so i i said

17:48i need a break a bio break i'm the only female in the room but i'm like let's i need

17:52a break my brother

17:53runs out and he goes what is happening i go they don't want a divorce they're bickering like let's

17:59get in there and make them figure out how to be decent if they wanted a divorce we would have

18:04figured

18:05that out in 30 minutes but we're still here two hours later banging our head on the wall because

18:12they're picking apart the what's in the and i'm like no no so we walked in and we talked with

18:18them

18:18and i'd you know my brother and i navigated this very beautifully together but we basically said do

18:25you really want a divorce because it sure doesn't seem like it and two more hours so it was a

18:30total of

18:31four hours we uh crunched it out and they worked out what they were upset about with each other

18:38they had personalized some things that weren't personal the integrator wasn't able to do his job to

18:43the best of his ability because the visionary was swooping in and causing disruption like they do and

18:50they set new rules of agreement made some agreements they're still together to this day

18:54running a great company but it was that breaking point and i think

19:01left alone it would have been personality driven versus principle driven and we brought them back to

19:08what they needed to be talking about was not each other it was you have some behaviors that are really

19:14in the way and if you want the goal then you got to let me do my job and get

19:19out of my lawn don't come

19:21over and weed my lawn let me do my lawn and as soon as we could do that it freed

19:26up the integrator

19:28to do his work and they have done very well since so can you give me an example of a

19:34small

19:34and i'm using air quotes here small issue that a team kept avoiding that turned into a much bigger

19:40problem later yeah one that i would tell you is small but it happens a lot is founders often make

19:48really great businesses and they're excited about it and they create it but they don't realize they

19:53need a number two in other words that counterpart who loves running the business because over time

19:58they get mired in the running of the business which they're not very good at and i have one of

20:04those and he is one of the most ambitious fabulous sales people he's wicked smart like almost all

20:11founders are in a way where they know everything but they can't teach and train real well because they

20:17don't think in linear fashion they don't really want to run a company they want to grow a company

20:22and once they grow it they're kind of stuck with it and so they don't realize they need that counterpart

20:27called an integrator or somebody to actually who goes that's my genius that's what i want to do is

20:33take the thing and make it efficient maximize it and so they get stuck in this point where they burn

20:40through leadership team members and the person i'm thinking about he has burned through so many

20:46teammates and we've had to take a couple of breaks where i've said until you find a counterpart you're

20:52going to keep burning through really some really amazing people because you're just too intense to

20:58work inside the business you need to be set free and i think that happens well beyond this person i'm

21:05thinking about and way more common because you don't know that number two is even a possibility

21:12so this is a topic that's of particular interest to me can you tell me about a time when a

21:17high

21:17performer was actually the biggest source of friction and how did that situation play out

21:21often and it always comes or most often comes down the sales lane so i can tell you that um

21:28there was a

21:29company you're making me go down memory lane in some painful and wonderful ways so that's all right

21:36um this is that same gentleman it's a perfect lead in this one top sales person happens a lot in

21:44my

21:44construction companies or roofing companies this is a really common thing top performing sales person

21:50and you end up being hostage to that person because they're the keys to your revenue right and yet

21:56they're not playing fair and they're very difficult to work with and say so they cause all kinds of

22:02cultural collateral damage lots of damage oh yeah and so that ceo loves them because they're good for

22:10the bottom line and so they excuse a lot of bad behavior but you get some great team members who

22:16are going it sucks to work here i mean why would i keep working here when that jerk over there

22:23gets

22:23away with murder because he brings in money so you lose top performers and in this case the sales team

22:30there was several sales people all the rest of the team literally five other people went to the ceo and

22:37said us or him and literally the ceo was like what because they they called an impromptu meeting they had

22:45had it knocked on the door and said make your choice you tell us we have this great culture you

22:51tell us

22:52we're running on eos you tell us all these good things but the truth is if we would make that

22:58amount of

22:58money we can do whatever we want so it's us or him and that little coup was a turning point

23:05because

23:05that ceo took it to heart and said he's got to go and it's the most courageous move because he

23:12was

23:12no longer hostage to the big producer and the team in fact as a result rose and the company grew

23:20but

23:21again the ceo felt very threatened that i can't do that i'll lose my shirt and all my clients will

23:28leave which is not in fact true because they aren't always all that lovely on the outside either they

23:35are really good at getting sales but if they can't play well they shouldn't stay this reminds me of the

23:40conversation i bryant wright and i talked about this as well and what it looked like for his team is

23:45because i mean if you're going to win all those championships in a row you're not playing on you're

23:51not organizing your team you're not treating your people just to win now you're also to win later

23:55because winning now and winning later are not mutually exclusive choices if the culture is is built

24:00correctly right and he really stressed with his athletes the importance of belonging first and not

24:09being contingent upon results or ability because a freshman who's chubby and never run before

24:14they're not going to be able to deliver the results that a all-state senior is but if he said

24:20if i

24:20couldn't help those kids feel like they belonged and then it was unconditional first he's like then

24:26they wouldn't give me their best effort because our culture would be sending a message to them that

24:31some people matter more than others and that's not acceptable to me he goes a freshman he goes my

24:37currency that i wanted all those kids to spend was effort because a freshman can give me 100 effort

24:42same as a senior can because that's the currency that they can all spend so because i wanted belonging

24:46based on effort not on talent or results and he goes my seniors like a top performing salesperson

24:57they don't escape additional responsibility they're given more of it yeah yeah they are the ones that are

25:03the examples to the freshmen and the sophomores and i understand that top salesman disease but this is a

25:09guy that built something that lasted all these years because of doing things differently than he

25:14didn't just let his top performers who are getting written about in the newspapers and are on radio and

25:18our tv and all this fancy stuff young age at a young age but those guys are the ones carrying

25:25the tents

25:25the seniors the ones setting up tents and carrying the coolers and love it that's that was the kind of

25:31culture that that was there so this this top salesperson's disease that's an issue for a lot of it is

25:37a real thing

25:39let me think what does what does avoidance sound like in a meeting and i say that i'm like what

25:46are

25:47some of the exact phrases or or behaviors that people would recognize i can rattle off a bunch

25:54don't die on that hill let's have a meeting after this meeting you and i mason we'll just take that

25:59offline let's not bring that up here we can solve that if we're in our team meeting oh i can

26:05talk to

26:05that person i'll do it one-on-one we we don't need to deal with that here you know the

26:09time doesn't

26:10feel real right right now i think we've got to just gather some research take get a little data

26:16we might be jumping the gun a little bit i don't know if those numbers are exactly right we we've

26:22got

26:22to just check on that and validate make sure it's right or it could be well that's that's not me

26:28that's

26:29actually my team or that's the other team that's not here today or when i was talking to so and

26:34so

26:35this happened so i'm sure that has something to do with this it's always a skirting of we're right

26:40here the elephant is here and it also can be squelching silence when silence is actually doing the work

26:49and i will tell people can you expound on that a bit expound on that so if there's this pregnant

26:54pause

26:56and you viscerally feel something you or me or anyone that is your first signal that you're onto

27:03something and i don't care what the something is sometimes when i've been in a room with my own team

27:09i'll be like can i ask what's going on because i can't name it even i feel something i don't

27:17even have

27:17the thoughts yet it's just there's something swimming around and somebody in that room is aware of it

27:24and silence can do the work but it also can be i can't name it so i'm just gonna call

27:30it out and

27:31say what's going on right now and wait don't fill that don't ask another question don't try and clarify

27:38it don't try and make it logical because gut is so valuable in those moments i would i tell people

27:46my intuition gets me in trouble but it gets me out of trouble because those moments are where i'll be

27:52like what's your face doing right now i ask about body language all the time as the observer i'm

28:00watching other people while someone's talking my job as a coach is to see what the dynamics are because

28:07we speak 93 of what's going on is not coming out of your mouth so if i can just go

28:13hey mason that

28:15doesn't look like your yes face can you tell me what you're thinking at worst at my very worst people

28:21will go oh i'm just thinking and it's i'm trying to figure out how and so you're off the hook

28:27you'll

28:27tell me but if i'm on to something immediately there's a cascade and it talks really really fast

28:35or people go oh it's nothing i just i i wasn't really paying attention and doing my grocery list and

28:41i'll be like okay well let's catch you up to speed with where we are because that didn't look like

28:45it

28:45was going well over there or i'll i'll just say are you sure because i don't want people to think

28:52we're naive when your body you know is communicating because a lot is body language but the verbiage

29:01sounds like a lot of things we take as oh it's not a good time right now so what's a

29:07situation where

29:08being nice inside a leadership team cause real damage to the business we have a chapter in my

29:14book in this issues book called you shouldn't want a nice culture so i love that you asked that

29:21question because nice in minnesota i'm from minnesota and if you aren't from here you may not

29:28know that the world refers to us as minnesota nice and i say nice is an acronym nothing in me

29:34cares

29:34enough to tell you the truth i would rather say it behind your back to someone who can't fix it

29:40that is a cultural you know or geographic norm i will say so nice can look like oh i'm trying

29:47to

29:47think of kim scott's word it's empathy and it's an e word it's so good but anyway it's empathy to

29:54a

29:54fault it's where i won't say the hard thing with you here because i'm too worried about what happens

30:01to you that's how people phrase it what i would tell you mason i really believe with my whole being

30:07is i don't think you'll like me anymore if i say what i'm about to say so i'm just going

30:14to be nice

30:14and i'm putting up air quotes for your audience instead of saying the hard thing because i'd rather

30:22be comfortable i'm putting bubble wrap on me not you but i couch it in i'm being benevolent and kind

30:28i tell people be kind and clear you can be kind and deliver hard messages if you can remember

30:35that every truth does not mean the relationships at stake a lot of times we think we're trading a

30:42relationship for telling the truth and i think the best relationships don't work that way and i think

30:50that kind or correction is kindness it is specific calm and grounded in observation

31:02so when you walk into a company for the first time what are some of the early signals that tell

31:07you that issues are not being addressed well this is silence the other way not the kind we just talked

31:13about this is silence like somebody asks a really good question and no one has a really good answer

31:19and it's just he who speaks loses that kind of silence and so that's one of the ways that it

31:27shows up

31:27i talked about body language again you can see that people have thoughts but they aren't expressing

31:34them because it's not safe enough in the room so they won't even though you see they want to

31:40and i'll i'll beg that out i have a question i used with that that i usually say if we

31:47were courageous

31:47what will we do right now or what might you say just to give people a little permission if you

31:53see

31:54the same issues in i in eos we have an issues list that we talk about cascading what we need

32:00to talk

32:01about if you see the same issues on the list for a period of time like three four five meetings

32:06that's avoidance right we're not getting to those because they're not important and it's usually not a

32:13tactical thing it's a people thing it's a process thing if you don't have issues on your list that's

32:19an avoidance because there's if you're growing you're gonna have issues that's just normal like

32:25if you're getting better at anything you should have issues we should look at them as a source of

32:30energy lightweight kind of things like hey what color this is the one i always toss out like what color

32:36should we go with for the holiday party you know and it's like is that really an issue or is

32:42that

32:42just somebody decide and run like why are we using meeting time for that so those kinds of things but

32:48i'd rather have that than nothing defensiveness not focusing on what's best for the company i mean

32:54there's a lot of ways it shows up and they're very normalized practiced so what's one question that

33:01you ask leaders that consistently stops them in their tracks i think i just gave you one of them

33:07which is if we were courageous what would we do right now another one that i will ask is something

33:13like hey mason what are we pretending not to know right now because what we know is not coming out

33:20because there are things that you could say to me that might be a difference maker asking what would

33:25be the single most impactful thing we could decide today and decide because that pushes for resolution

33:33or what do we need to solve not what do we need to talk about what do we need to

33:38solve

33:39because now it's forcing the answer so tell us a little about your new book i know it's just just

33:45come

33:45out yes today all right well let's let's celebrate tell us about your book what inspired it what are the

33:52key takeaways and how do people get it well get it anywhere you get good books and if you can

33:58buy it

33:59today i don't know that this podcast will be out the day but it's doing well it's april 7th so

34:04it's

34:05like go buy it anywhere you can get books i would say your local people because i like to see

34:09them win

34:10what is it about it's about i think the hardest most intangible part of eos but really of any

34:17business is how do you identify what's in the way and solve it fast and permanently the first time it

34:27comes up and that's a loaded thing like that sounds so simple and our methodology identify discuss solve

34:34is how we talk about doing that you make a list then you identify dig to the root discuss it

34:39once

34:40solve it i would tell you the most neglected skill is identify and we've got tons of ways for people

34:47to dig at that in here we've got a toolkit that's immensely packed with values whether you value

34:54whether you work on run on eos or not people are too good at discussing and they don't really identify

35:01or solve and so we try and weight it more heavily on there's a great quote from one of my

35:07fellow

35:07implementers alex freitag and i issue identified well is half solved so if you can get to the root of

35:15something and 80 of issues have to do with processor people you can move a lot faster but it is

35:23the

35:23byline of the book is what it's about removing friction fast tracking growth and igniting your

35:29greatness who did you write it for who's your ideal audience entrepreneurs entrepreneurial companies with

35:3510 to 250 employees but i would tell you honestly humans if you have issues you're normal how do you

35:42get

35:42better at saying what the source is getting to the root and then making it go away fast and permanently

35:49i mean i don't know anyone who wouldn't benefit but teams in particular go get them if there was only

35:55one piece of advice that you could give to anyone watching or listening today what's the most important

36:00piece of advice you you could offer and why great question i would say create safe enough spaces for

36:10people to tell the truth and thank them when they have the courage to answer the question even when

36:17you don't like the answer that's deep and it's true as as leaders our decisions are only as sound as

36:27the facts in which they're based and you can't see everything you can't hear everything you can't know

36:32everything you have to rely on other people and if they don't share the truth with you about what they

36:40see what

36:40they feel what they think and why then by default you don't have the inputs to make good decisions

36:47right that's very very wise so if people want to connect with you and learn more about you and the

36:53work that

36:54you do in your company what are the best ways for them to do that well thank you for your

36:58gracious invite

36:59linkedin we have a group that's by invite only and you're all invited it's called the no avoidance

37:05room so it is a safe space to work through things and i appear there and help people as often

37:11as i can

37:12we have a thing called the issues gym which is more of a paid place to build the muscle to

37:18solve issues

37:19more effectively for the long term for anyone in the company and then sayyes.com is our website

37:25if you want to learn more is it say yes with one s or two s's two s's at the

37:31end two y's in the

37:33minute in the middle and you did pay attention you are on it in every way so spell that out

37:40for for

37:40the people who are listening s-a-y-y-e-s-s as in sam there you go it's been

37:48a pleasure having you

37:49thank you so much for joining us mason you're the best thank you

37:59thank you

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