- 4 minutes ago
1976 CRIME DRAMA "At an earlier trial Sylvia Turner was acquitted of soliciting on Fulchester High Street. However she now finds herself on trial accused of perjury. The Prosecution claim that Miss Turner lied when she said in court that she was not soliciting on that occasion - she is a known prostitute and propositioned a man." IMDB Starring William Fox, Richard Wilson, Myra Frances, Sharon Duce, Alan Hunter, Bridget Ashburn, Fred Pearson, Patricia Lawrence, Marcia King.
Episodes aired Oct 20-22, 1976
Episodes aired Oct 20-22, 1976
Category
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TVTranscript
00:00:20why I shall try Sylvia but after you have pleaded we have to work on the
00:00:25assumption that the trial will go ahead but that's not fair well I'll see I'm
00:00:29afraid there's been a very recent judgment against our point in the House
00:00:31of Lords what do they know about it the law but they're just there to support
00:00:35police well we'll try now you'd better go and report to the policeman and good
00:00:40luck thank you pretty girl well you've got her address in your brief I think her
00:00:49rates are competitive well I don't think she'll be available for quite a few
00:00:53months if the trial goes ahead for oh I think it will Sylvia Turner on this
00:01:08indictment were charged with perjury
00:01:10contrary to section one of the perjury act 1911 the particulars are that on the
00:01:1416th of May 1976 in the Fulchester Magistrates Court you knowingly gave
00:01:19false evidence on oath that on the 12th of February 1976 you were not
00:01:23soliciting for immoral purposes but as in fact you were how do you plead to this
00:01:28charge are you guilty or not guilty not guilty my lord I request that you dismiss
00:01:35this charge on the grounds that it is oppressive and an abuse of this court and
00:01:38the process of law I should like to urge before you urge anything miss Scott
00:01:43should we not ask the jury to retire as your lordship pleases however the defense
00:01:49is perfectly willing for the jury to hear all the argument in certain
00:01:52circumstances we feel it might help the defense and the process of justice
00:01:56hmm while asking the jury to note that the defense and the process of justice are
00:02:03not necessarily the same thing well I have no objection to allowing the jury to
00:02:09remain mr. Parsons I have no objections my lord very well members of the jury you are
00:02:17about to hear a legal argument between counsel as to whether this trial should
00:02:22proceed at all it is not part of the trial in the sense that you have to decide
00:02:27anything normally you would retire at this point but the defense counsel has
00:02:33requested that you should remain and I have decided to allow it miss Scott
00:02:40in today's trial for perjury the jury has been selected from members of the
00:02:44public whose names appeared on the electoral register and who are eligible for
00:02:48jury service mr. Parsons appears for the prosecution and miss Scott for the
00:02:53defense mr. Justice Crowther Smith presides in the case of the Queen against
00:02:58Turner
00:03:02my lord this charge arises out of the events at a trial in Fulchester Magistrates Court
00:03:08miss Turner was tried for a crime for which she was found not guilty the police
00:03:12re-arrested her and have charged her with perjury on the basis of her evidence my
00:03:17lord it is a long-standing principle in common law that a person should not stand in
00:03:21double jeopardy that he should not subsequently be tried for an offense for
00:03:25which he has been found not guilty I would submit my lord that bringing a
00:03:29charge of perjury on the basis of the defendant's evidence amounts exactly to
00:03:32this and therefore the charge is abusive and oppressive mr. Parsons my lord I'm sure your
00:03:40lordship would be well aware of the recent case of Regina versus Humphreys in the
00:03:44House of Lords I have the weekly law report dated June 4th 1976 here in that case
00:03:51their lordships unanimously decided that in a very similar case that is a case of
00:03:56perjury arising out of another trial that the case was properly brought and that
00:04:01the issue is toppled does not apply in criminal law in particular Lord Salmon said
00:04:07that in his view the issue would be inappropriate artificial and unnecessary
00:04:12now in any case my lord the issue does not apply here the defendant was found not
00:04:18guilty of prostitution and here she is charged with perjury my lord in my learned
00:04:23friend's anxiety to use the word prostitution he seems to have overlooked
00:04:27the fact that prostitution is not an offense in English law and therefore my
00:04:30client could not have been found not guilty of committing it if my learned
00:04:34friend will bear with me I will concede that she was found not guilty of
00:04:37soliciting for an immoral purpose it doesn't roll so cuttingly off the tongue
00:04:41as prostitution but in all accuracy that was what the court found she
00:04:44hadn't done my lord I am of course grateful to my learned friend for her
00:04:49conviction however scoring points aside the main point stands I have here the
00:04:55law report hmm have you anything further to say miss Scott no my lord I too have
00:05:00the report here and I can see nothing in it which would make it improper for your
00:05:03lordship to dismiss this case I see well it will surprise neither of you I hope to
00:05:12learn that I too have studied that report very carefully and it seems quite
00:05:16clear to me from their lordship's judgment whatever may have been commonly
00:05:20thought before that this case is perfectly properly brought even if the
00:05:27defendant was found not guilty in a previous case I shall have to accept the
00:05:33same evidence again in this case Lord Salmon said quite specifically that a judge and I
00:05:43quote that a judge had not and should not appear to have any responsibilities for
00:05:49the institution of prosecution nor had a judge any power to refuse to allow a
00:05:54prosecution to proceed merely because he considered that as a matter of policy it
00:05:59should not have been brought so unless and until Parliament enacts a new law it is
00:06:06quite clear to me I must allow this trial to proceed my lord I accept of course as I
00:06:13must your judgment however I hope your lordship will allow me to point out to the
00:06:17jury as this trial proceeds where I believe the prosecution is vexatious and
00:06:21abusive a case where the noble lord said a judge could intervene you may raise
00:06:27points as you think fit miss Scott thank you my lord and I will rule upon them as I think
00:06:33fit of course my
00:06:35lord mr. Parsons members of the jury you will have gathered this is a most
00:06:42unusual case briefly it arose like this the defendant Sylvia Turner was arrested
00:06:48for soliciting for an immoral purpose she was tried at the foodstown magistrates
00:06:53court where she pleaded not guilty she gave sworn evidence in support of her plea
00:06:58and was found not guilty however the police were not satisfied that justice had been done and they
00:07:05continued their investigations they gathered evidence that miss Turner had in fact committed
00:07:10perjury during the trial she was charged and arrested and she appears here to answer those charges now I
00:07:18wanted to remember that we are not here today to try miss Turner for soliciting for an immoral purpose
00:07:25but what we do say is that she committed perjury when she said she was not now at the magistrate's
00:07:32court the police called only one witness police constable Wilkins we will be calling other witnesses
00:07:38to establish beyond doubt that miss Turner was soliciting however first of all I will call the arresting
00:07:46officer I call police constable Wilkins
00:07:52constable will you tell the court the details of your arrest of miss Turner on February the 12th
00:07:59may I use my notebook my lord were your notes made at the time about ten minutes after very well
00:08:05thank you my lord I was in a panda car parked at the junction of Filing Street and High Street
00:08:12Fultester
00:08:13when I saw the defendant miss Sylvia Turner standing in the shop doorway of Brannigan's she appeared to
00:08:18be looking at the people passing and in fact she spoke to several men as one man passed her I
00:08:24saw her
00:08:24approach him and speak to him the man then hurried off as if embarrassed I got out the car and
00:08:30I arrested
00:08:30miss Turner for soliciting I see now you don't arrest every woman who speaks to a man no sir but
00:08:37the
00:08:37defendant is a known prostitute and it was obvious from the way she was talking to men and the way
00:08:42in
00:08:42which she approached the final man his embarrassment and hurrying off that she was soliciting yes now
00:08:47you said miss Turner is a known prostitute oh yes I've arrested her three or four times myself yes did
00:08:54the accuse say anything to you when you arrested her she was abusive sir yes now you said miss Turner
00:09:00is
00:09:00a known prostitute that's right and you had no doubt that what you saw that afternoon was miss Turner
00:09:06soliciting men in the street no doubt at all yes and this evidence is exactly the same as you gave
00:09:13at the
00:09:13magistrate's court certainly it's what happened yes thank you constable
00:09:31constable what did miss Turner say to the last man I didn't hear why not well I was inside a
00:09:38car
00:09:38and 40 yards away ah so she could have been saying good morning or your shoelace is undone or Jesus
00:09:43saves
00:09:43and you wouldn't have been able to tell the difference I shouldn't have thought it was the
00:09:47last one oh constable why not well as I said she was a known prostitute yes we heard you constable
00:09:53have you ever heard of Mary Magdalene yes and how would you describe her my lord a known prostitute
00:10:02constable I think you've made your point miss Scott yes my lord constable you must have gathered how
00:10:08long she spoke I mean you did see her lips move well it was 40 yards and people were passing
00:10:13yes of
00:10:14course constable so how do you know miss Turner spoke first I'm afraid I don't quite understand
00:10:20ma'am well it's very simple constable if miss Turner was soliciting as you put it she must have spoken
00:10:26first don't you agree not necessarily ma'am oh well the man could have said to her your shoelace is
00:10:32undone and then she could have asked him if he wanted a short time but you're not suggesting that is
00:10:35what happened no because you couldn't could you you have no idea who spoke first have you it looked
00:10:41to me as if she was soliciting but exactly how did she lift her skirt jingle keys do a strip
00:10:47tease
00:10:47no ma'am they talked and the man hurried away that's right you're in the corridor when my learned
00:10:55friend and I came into court you saw us yes ma'am we were talking and my learned friend walked
00:11:01away
00:11:01remember yes but you didn't arrest me well no ma'am the services for which you receive a fee are
00:11:07not
00:11:07so far as I know illegal very good constable but nor are miss Turner's it is illegal to solicit for
00:11:15an immoral purpose I know that but you have to convince the jury that she was soliciting
00:11:21now I put it to you that the man spoke to miss Turner first not so far as I saw
00:11:26she approached him
00:11:27well whether or not she took a step towards him you have absolutely no way of knowing who spoke
00:11:32first no ma'am thank you constable now you said you arrested her you haven't told us what she said
00:11:40well I approached miss Turner and I informed her I was arresting her for soliciting and she replied
00:11:45piss off Wilkie I'm not working but you did not believe her I'd seen her soliciting you had seen a
00:11:52man and a woman talking and assumed the woman was soliciting now if miss Turner had not been a
00:11:58known prostitute what the briefest of brief conversations have excited your interest my
00:12:03lord how can the constable possibly answer such a hypothetical question I withdraw the question my
00:12:08lord constable you have told the court that when you approached miss Turner she told you that she
00:12:15was not soliciting yes did you do anything to check your suspicions I don't see what you mean
00:12:21ma'am well did you for example ask the man what she had said to him no not at the
00:12:26time no well I am
00:12:27talking about what happened at that time it did not occur to you to go to the man first and
00:12:32check
00:12:32it's not usual in such cases the man had already been embarrassed and when it was clear to me but
00:12:37was
00:12:37it clear constable that is the point you say you were afraid of embarrassing the man but you had
00:12:42no compunction in embarrassing miss Turner well we're not usually concerned with a criminal's
00:12:46embarrassment when we arrest them no of course not constable but the state does require you to
00:12:50be sure that a person is a criminal before you arrest them now I shall return to the man later
00:12:56now you said miss Turner said piss off Wilkie I'm not working that's right that's a very familiar
00:13:03mode of address isn't it you get used to such language now I'm talking about your name it sounds
00:13:08as if you were old friends she knew me yes of course she did constable how many times have
00:13:14you arrested her it's hard to be sure two or three times in fact three times September 74 January 75
00:13:23and the case under trial now in February 76 she was also arrested for soliciting by another policeman in
00:13:28May 75 now do those dates mean anything to you no well let me put it to you constable there
00:13:36is an
00:13:36interval of five months in the first three arrests September 74 to January 75 then January 75 to May 75
00:13:44then there's a longer gap May 75 to February 76 twice as long how do you account for that she
00:13:53must have
00:13:53been getting clever mum or she gave up working the streets in that period I can't say no of course
00:13:58you
00:13:58can't constable but it is interesting that you assumed she was still working now I put it to you that
00:14:05you
00:14:05operate a sort of rotor system in arresting known prostitutes I don't know what you mean now that
00:14:12you pick up known prostitutes regularly on the assumption that they are still working no we only
00:14:17pick up women when we see them working but it is interesting constable isn't it that miss Turner's
00:14:22first three arrests were so regularly spaced coincidence man perhaps or perhaps every five
00:14:29months miss Turner had a brainstorm and picked up a client under the noses of the police if I tell
00:14:34you constable that prostitutes in this town are reasonably sure that they know when they will
00:14:39be arrested would you be surprised no why not well we have an efficient police force and if anyone sets
00:14:45out to break the law they can be reasonably sure to get in court very good constable but I am
00:14:51talking
00:14:51about women who are breaking the law as you put it all the time yet they know to within a
00:14:55week or
00:14:55two when they will be arrested now do you still maintain that you don't pick up known prostitutes
00:15:00regularly without bothering of over much about whether or not they were soliciting at the time
00:15:04no definitely not nevertheless you are pretty accurate in your arrests aren't you almost always
00:15:10the women plead guilty don't they usually my lord I followed this line of questioning very closely for
00:15:17some time but I fail to see what relevance it has to this case I'm sure I can show its
00:15:22relevance in
00:15:22a very short time my lord if you will pardon the expression very well miss Scott I do hope so
00:15:28because
00:15:28at the moment I am in sympathy with mr. Parsons thank you my lord now constable when was the last
00:15:36time
00:15:37that a woman you arrested for soliciting plead not guilty in the case of miss Turner I see and before
00:15:43that I can't remember any none no constable I looked up the records for this town and I find that
00:15:53in the
00:15:53past 96 cases of soliciting only miss Turner pleaded not guilty now does that surprise you no it shows
00:16:00how careful we are I put it to you that it shows how the system works miss Turner had the
00:16:06temerity to
00:16:06plead not guilty and the police decided that this should not go unpunished so she finds herself in the
00:16:11dock for perjury my lord that is grossly improper my learned friend must know that an officer of the
00:16:16rank of constable cannot initiate a prosecution for perjury how can the officer possibly comment or
00:16:22answer such a proposition miss Scott I think you've taken this line of questioning as far as it can
00:16:28properly go unless you're going to be more specific my lord I have to establish the whole circumstances
00:16:34and atmosphere of that first trial to explain how a perjury charge came to be brought now my lord I
00:16:40do
00:16:40submit that I can establish that the charge is vexatious and abusive if you will allow me to
00:16:45pursue this line just a little further yes well try not to be too long about it miss Scott yes
00:16:51my lord
00:16:51thank you my lord I shall need very little more time now constable you must have been very surprised
00:16:58when miss Turner pleaded not guilty it's everybody's right well thank you constable I don't need lessons in
00:17:04English law from you were you or were you not surprised when miss Turner pleaded not guilty
00:17:08yes angry even I wouldn't say that but you were angry when she established that she was in fact not
00:17:16guilty she didn't as far as I was concerned the jury found her not guilty but I knew she was
00:17:21even though
00:17:22you hadn't checked with a man concerned yes but were you angry well no one likes having their word
00:17:29doubted my lord I have asked this witness the same question twice each time he evades it he is wasting
00:17:35the
00:17:35limited time your lordship has kindly allowed me you must answer the questions directly I'm sorry
00:17:42my lord now constable were you angry no I put it to you that you and your colleagues were angry
00:17:51because miss Turner had broken the unwritten rules she had pleaded not guilty and if women accused of
00:17:56soliciting started to do that you would all be involved in a great deal more work and so this perjury
00:18:01charge was brought so that it wouldn't become a habit now I put it to you that you were angry
00:18:05too
00:18:06because miss Turner had unexpectedly brought a social worker to give evidence for her and so
00:18:11this charge of perjury was brought so that the girls wouldn't think that they could use the courts for
00:18:14justice instead of an unofficial system of paying tax no my lord my learned friend is getting answers
00:18:20to her questions but because she doesn't like them she's taking to answer them herself she's not here
00:18:25to give evidence miss Scott you're beginning to make speeches do not follow this line of questioning
00:18:31any longer as your lordship pleases have you any further questions for this witness yes my lord well
00:18:37then I hope they'll be on a different topic yes my lord constable did you know any of the men
00:18:45who
00:18:45approached miss Turner I knew slightly the final man who miss Turner approached slightly you say yes
00:18:53uh my lord I believe the man in question is going to be called by the prosecution
00:18:57it would greatly help if we could hear his evidence before I finish my cross-examination of this witness
00:19:02oh really miss Scott justice cannot otherwise be done my lord if it will assist I have no objections
00:19:09oh very well in that case my lord I will reserve my re-examination yes you may leave the witness
00:19:15box officer
00:19:24uh my lord as the constable hasn't finished giving evidence I would prefer it that he did not
00:19:29remain to hear the other evidence you will wait outside constable
00:19:39uh my lord I had planned to call WPC Jones who took miss Turner's statement at food to police station
00:19:46however since I understand her evidence is not in dispute I simply plan to read it
00:19:51my lord I do realize that the prosecution had a backup witness to establish that miss Turner was a
00:19:56prostitute but as I am making no secret of that fact I can see why my learned friend does not
00:20:00wish to
00:20:01call the police woman however I do have some questions for her and if necessary I shall call
00:20:06her as a defense witness my lord there is of course no need for my learned friend to do that
00:20:11I will call WPC Jones in order that my learned friend can question her very well
00:20:19and you took the statement from miss Turner at the police station that's right yes thank you miss
00:20:25Jones miss Jones why did you take down miss Turner's statement I was told to by the station sergeant I
00:20:34see it is usual for the arresting officer to do this isn't it well yes but police constable Wilkins
00:20:40was going off duty it's not all that unusual what did you say when you saw PC Wilkins bringing in
00:20:46miss Turner oh I can't remember miss Jones this woman is on trial for a very serious offense I must
00:20:53ask you to try to remember something like here we are again then ah something like but not quite
00:20:59I put it to you that you said you're overdue aren't you you'll be thinking it's legal well I may
00:21:06have
00:21:06made a joke I do know the defendant but did you say those words I can't remember as I said
00:21:11so you can't
00:21:12deny that you said those words no well let's look at them you're overdue aren't you what does that
00:21:17mean I don't know you said I said them I didn't and you'll be thinking it's legal what does that
00:21:23mean
00:21:24my lord this witness has already correctly said she cannot be asked to give the meaning of words she
00:21:29has sworn she can't remember saying very well my lord I will not press the point miss Jones do you
00:21:36know the defendant yes where have you met her at the station several times and of course on the
00:21:42streets working have you ever arrested her no why not I don't understand well you say you saw her
00:21:52soliciting but you didn't arrest her well I believe she was working but I didn't actually see her
00:21:58approach a man when I was watching nevertheless you said on oath that you saw her working and as she
00:22:03is
00:22:03a prostitute that means she was soliciting now did you or did you not see her working I assumed she
00:22:09was waiting for men ah you assumed and if a man had come along and words had been exchanged you
00:22:15would have assumed that the woman was soliciting for an immoral purpose well it would depend on what
00:22:19miss Jones well on the way she approached the man the man's attitude and so on how would you know
00:22:25what
00:22:25the man's attitude was would you go up and ask him we try not to embarrass innocent members of the
00:22:30public oh so though rather than check on who approached whom you would assume that the woman
00:22:35was soliciting only if the nature of the approach was obvious miss Jones do the police ever receive
00:22:41complaints from women about being approached by men in cars for example sometimes oh so there are men
00:22:47who look for women on the streets for immoral purposes yes and if one of these men went up to
00:22:52a
00:22:52known prostitute and solicited her and then walked away who would you arrest with a man probably for
00:23:00conduct likely to cause the breach of the peace if you had heard what he had said yes and if
00:23:06you
00:23:07hadn't if you hadn't even seen who had spoken first and the woman was a known prostitute my learned friend
00:23:16seems to be conducting a half dozen defenses all for hypothetical clients I think you've made your
00:23:25point miss Scott I'm sure I have my lord I have no further questions of this witness
00:23:48the cases in Fulchester Crown Court are fictitious and you can join us tomorrow when the case of the
00:23:54Queen against Turner will be resumed in the Crown Court
00:24:31Sylvia Turner a common prostitute was arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose but was found
00:24:37not guilty at the magistrate's court the police were not satisfied with the verdict and after further
00:24:42investigation arrested Miss Turner and charged her with perjury on the basis of her evidence at the
00:24:47original trial the jury in today's trial is selected from members of the public whose names appear on
00:24:53the electoral register and who are eligible for jury service after police evidence the prosecution's case
00:24:59continues in the Crown Court you are Philip Hall yes of 53 Landfield Grove Fultester yes what is your
00:25:09occupation mr. Hall I'm an under manager at the UFK supermarket in the high street I see do you
00:25:15remember the events of February the 12th this year yes yes now will you please tell the court the
00:25:22circumstances of miss Turner's arrest near Brannigan's that day well I was walking back to the supermarket
00:25:28after my lunch and I noticed this woman stood in Brannigan's shop doorway could you say who this woman was
00:25:34yeah it was the defendant there yes now you're quite sure about that oh yes good carry on well as
00:25:42I
00:25:42passed the doorway she spoke to me yes now you're quite sure that she spoke first yes yes what did
00:25:49she
00:25:49say something like lovely day yes what did you say something like too nice to be working yes can you
00:25:58remember what she said then yes I can remember that exactly she said surely you can take half an hour
00:26:05off I said what for she said you can have a lot of fun in half an hour yes and
00:26:11you took that to be an
00:26:12approach for an immoral purpose well no I wasn't sure then but I was sure when she said half an
00:26:17hour
00:26:17back at my place you won't notice the work for the rest of the day I see so there was
00:26:22then no doubt in
00:26:23your mind that miss Turner was inviting you back to her flat for an immoral purpose absolutely yes
00:26:30thank you mr. Hall mr. Hall you said you were an under manager at the supermarket yes what are your
00:26:38duties general supervising the store under the manager I see and what do you supervise specifically
00:26:48the staff the general running of the stock do you see to the loading of the shelves arrange staff
00:26:55rotors no so what exactly do you do mr. Hall when it was for shoplifting so on ah you are
00:27:02the security
00:27:03officer at the supermarket security is part of an under manager's job if necessary I can call witnesses
00:27:11to prove that you have described yourself as a security officer when you are not appearing as a police
00:27:16witness in a court now are you or are you not the security officer at the supermarket yes good so
00:27:25why did you describe yourself as the under manager well that is my grade within the organization so you
00:27:31weren't actually committing perjury when you described yourself as an under manager no of course not good you
00:27:38just thought it would be more convenient to describe yourself that way that is my grade now as
00:27:44security officer you must fairly often come into contact with the police very often yes so you know PC Wilkins
00:27:52yes quite well professionally I see you meet him when you have caught a shoplifter and you send for the
00:28:00police
00:28:01yes that sort of thing so you have seen him fairly often yes now please tell the court exactly what
00:28:08happened when PC Wilkins came to ask you what had happened outside Brannigan's well he came into the
00:28:14shop and asked me if I remembered the incident and of course you did oh yes it was only a
00:28:19day or so
00:28:19before after all I see and you told him exactly what you told the court today that's right he didn't
00:28:25prompt
00:28:25you in any way no no it's important for you in your job that you have the cooperation of the
00:28:32police
00:28:32isn't it it is but every law-abiding citizen us that yes but you're not a typical law-abiding citizen
00:28:39you are part of the law enforcement scene certainly not officially no but unofficially yes and you
00:28:48wouldn't want any behavior of yours to spoil the smooth working relationship you have with the police
00:28:53there's no reason for that to happen i'm sure there isn't mr hall now did you know miss turner before
00:29:00this happened i knew of my sight certainly how is that well i work on the high street i've seen
00:29:07her
00:29:07working did you speak to her often no did you speak to her at all well i may have said
00:29:14good morning oh
00:29:15come along mr hall i put it to you that you had quite a jokey bantering relationship with miss
00:29:19turner no absolutely not i had no sort of relationship with her at all i am not accusing
00:29:26you of trying to procure miss turner mr hall i'm just saying that on occasion you exchange
00:29:31pleasantries in a friendly way no
00:29:39my instructions are mr hall that it was you as a joke of course who actually suggested going off
00:29:45together for half an hour no that's not true and she said that she wasn't working no it was as
00:29:52i
00:29:52said understand me mr hall no one is seriously suggesting that you meant to go with miss turner
00:29:58but that cheerfully banteringly you said it was too nice for work how about a short time no absolutely
00:30:05not very well thank you mr hall i have no further questions of this witness panel thank you mr hall
00:30:12you
00:30:13may go and sit down
00:30:17i call mrs elaine lloyd
00:30:23mrs lloyd you work as a supervisor at branigan's department store yes now will you tell the court
00:30:30exactly what exactly what you saw on the morning that miss turner was arrested well i was standing
00:30:36near the men's shirt counter that's on the ground floor that's right it's nearest the door it used to
00:30:43be ladies fashions but then these market research people reorganized the store and they said that
00:30:47women will go upstairs to shop but men buy quickly or not at all thank you so you were standing
00:30:53near the
00:30:53door what did you see oh i saw that woman the woman in the dock yes her i saw i
00:31:01speak to mr hall
00:31:02now let's get this absolutely clear mrs lloyd you saw miss turner speak to mr hall yes and what did
00:31:10mr
00:31:10hall do he spoke very shortly to the woman and hurried off yes and you've absolutely no doubt in your
00:31:16mind as to whom approached whom no none that woman was soliciting yes thank you uh mrs lloyd
00:31:24mrs lloyd you recognized that woman as you put it oh yes i've seen her before and several of her
00:31:30kind you feel very strongly that prostitutes should be punished do you mrs lloyd well of course i do
00:31:36it's disgusting and what is your attitude to the men mrs lloyd they're just weak aren't they i mean if
00:31:43the girls weren't there to tend are they just buy on impulse do they mrs lloyd they don't go upstairs
00:31:47so
00:31:47to speak well yes i suppose it is the same thing you know mr hall the security officer at the
00:31:54supermarket
00:31:54do you oh yes you couldn't imagine him initiating a conversation with a prostitute impossible could
00:32:01you tell us again mrs lloyd what you saw on that day well that woman was talking to me just
00:32:08a minute
00:32:08mrs lloyd you said was talking did you see mr hall walking along the pavement before she spoke to him
00:32:16but no as i said you said you saw miss turner talking to mr hall but he was standing still
00:32:23yes do you know why he was standing still no so when you looked out you saw mr hall standing
00:32:31and miss turner talking to him well that's right as i said but you don't know why he was standing
00:32:38now it could be because she had called him or it could be because he wanted to talk to her
00:32:43the point is you looked after someone had already spoken the question is who miss turner or mr hall
00:32:50well it must have been the girl she was soliciting no mrs lloyd that is what we are here to
00:32:54find out
00:32:55now apart from your prejudice and what you think of miss turner or anyone else is there any evidence
00:33:02can you remember anything that would prove to you and to us that it was miss turner who spoke first
00:33:07well she was speaking when i saw her but we have already established that the encounter had already
00:33:12started before you noticed it mrs lloyd who spoke first well i don't know thank you mrs lloyd i have
00:33:20no further questions my lord uh no i my lord very well thank you mrs lloyd you may leave the
00:33:27witness box
00:33:29uh my lord that concludes the case for the prosecution apart from the unfinished evidence of
00:33:34pc wilkins oh yeah i should be grateful my lord if i could complete my cross-examination of pc wilkins
00:33:40now
00:33:41very well recall the constable
00:33:56now you will remember you are still on oath of course now you said in your previous evidence
00:34:02that you knew mr hall slightly that's right but we have heard mr hall say that he had quite a
00:34:08lot of
00:34:08dealings with the police in his job as a security officer well i'm not the hold of the police force
00:34:13now nevertheless you did recognize him at the time of the encounter with miss turner yes you said too
00:34:21that the police would prefer not to compound the embarrassment caused by a prostitute to an innocent
00:34:26member of the public by checking with them that's right you saw what you took to be an act of
00:34:32soliciting an unofficial colleague of yours a man who watches out for thieves often women stuffing
00:34:37stolen goods all over their anatomy and you didn't check with him in case he blushed well
00:34:43there was no need i was sure of the offense but when she was found not guilty you knew exactly
00:34:48where to go to collect evidence for this trial i knew the man had been approached yes and you were
00:34:54so incensed by the miscarriage of justice that you had to summon on all your courage and approach mr
00:34:59hall even if he did blush i asked him what had happened as a matter of interest did he squirm
00:35:04with
00:35:04embarrassment of course not so your tender concern had not been necessary after all you found mr hall
00:35:10ready to give evidence yes and he would want to keep his relationship with you in good repair
00:35:17i don't know what you mean don't you constable did he remember the case yes very well and he read
00:35:23the
00:35:23press reports he said he was thinking of coming to us ah yes the press reports they weren't very
00:35:28favorable to the police were they they reported the case ah yes they did indeed and the magistrate's
00:35:33comment and the editor commented as a matter of fact i have a copy of the fulchester gazette here
00:35:39with me magistrates reprimand the police do you remember that of course i do yes of course you and
00:35:46your colleagues must have been very upset at all that adverse publicity well no one likes unfair
00:35:50criticism but not everyone has as much power to do something about it i put it to you that you
00:35:57were
00:35:57determined to upset that verdict and set out to collect evidence to do so i did what i was told
00:36:04and what precisely were you told the inspector had me in and he asked me in detail about the case
00:36:11i told him i was convinced i'd done the right thing and he told me to prove it oh that's
00:36:15an interesting
00:36:15way of putting it constable you weren't told to check the truth of your idea of what happened you were
00:36:22told to prove it yes and so you went along to your friend mr hall he's not my friend very
00:36:29well you went
00:36:30along to mr hall who you found you all about the case had read the papers and knew exactly what
00:36:34you
00:36:35wanted he told me what had happened and you weren't surprised that it coincided exactly with your evidence
00:36:41as reported in the fulchester gazette no why should i be no reason constable no reason at all
00:36:47and then you came across mrs lloyd who could also corroborate your story that's right but how did you
00:36:53come across her a routine the offense occurred in brannigan's doorway and i went into the shop to
00:36:58find out if anyone saw it and you found mrs lloyd she had seen it yes but it was fortunate
00:37:05for you
00:37:05that she just happened to be looking out of the window at the time even if she didn't see the
00:37:10start
00:37:10of the encounter and therefore can't tell who started it constable i put it to you that this
00:37:16prosecution arises out of the determination of the police to discourage prostitutes from pleading
00:37:20not guilty and so causing i have finished with this witness my lord now constable you've been
00:37:28subjected to a great deal of innuendo shall we clear away some of this emotional fog and look at the
00:37:33evidence yes sir as far as you were concerned that afternoon you were convinced that what you saw
00:37:39was a known prostitute working in the normal way yes sir you've no personal feelings about this case
00:37:45one way or another no sir well if anything i quite liked the defendant she was always cheerful and
00:37:51friendly i see so there was no reason is no reason for you suddenly to become the fiend of my
00:37:57learned
00:37:57friend who's trying to make you my lord i withdraw that my lord was there any reason for you to
00:38:04continue the case after the magistrates court only because there's been a miscarriage of justice
00:38:10sir yes and it is the duty of the police to remedy that yes sir yes thank you constable i've
00:38:16no
00:38:16further questions my lord that concludes the case for the prosecution very well thank you constable
00:38:22yes mr scott my lord i submit that the prosecution has done nothing to show why this case can properly
00:38:29be brought they have brought as witnesses only people who could have been brought to the magistrate's
00:38:33court the charge refers exactly to the material of the original trial and i would submit my lord
00:38:38that the continued trial of my client is vexatious and abusive miss scott my original ruling was not
00:38:46based on the nature of the evidence it was based on the house of lords ruling regina v humphreys 1976
00:38:55therefore the trial must go on please open your case as your lordship pleases
00:39:03members of the jury by now you will be very well aware of the facts of this case indeed i
00:39:09hope you
00:39:09are even now in a position to weigh the evidence and fine for my client before you have even heard
00:39:14the
00:39:14defense witnesses however there is one witness that i do intend to call who should convince you that miss
00:39:21turner was not working at the relevant time before that however i call the accused
00:39:43what is your religion take the book in the right hand and read aloud the words written on the card
00:39:48i swear by almighty god that the evidence i
00:39:50should give should be the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth
00:39:56now miss turner you do realize the significance of that oath yes i do it's very important that you
00:40:02tell the truth after all if the police don't agree with the jury in this trial we should hate them
00:40:07to
00:40:07bring you back to be tried for perjury in your perjury trial my lord that is a gross slur on
00:40:12the
00:40:12police miss scott please confine yourself to examining your witness yes my lord miss turner what do you do
00:40:20for a living i'm a prostitute how long have you been a prostitute um about nine years that's a long
00:40:28time
00:40:28for someone so young is it did you choose to become a prostitute it's hard to say really i mean
00:40:37well when
00:40:38exactly did you start going with men for money i don't know you go your bloke when you're 14 gives
00:40:45you a present and about a year later you're a bit clever you make sure you've learned out learned to
00:40:51make him give you a present before you go in no no i'm not talking about giving presents miss turner
00:40:54i'm talking about the provision of sex for money as a commercial transaction well in the beginning
00:41:00there isn't that much difference you see i didn't have a dad well not since i was six he took
00:41:04off
00:41:04and my mother were never there so well i had to look after my brother and sisters how many one
00:41:10brother two sisters go on well when i left school i didn't get a job i looked after them what
00:41:16about
00:41:16your mother she was always pissed sorry my lord she was drunk i didn't have any money if i wanted
00:41:23to
00:41:23oh a dress or anything i had to find a way of getting it by prostitution yes i'd always been
00:41:29a gifted
00:41:30amateur as they say so going professional wasn't that much of a step and did you ever bring the
00:41:35men home no no i couldn't do that because of the kids you see i brought them up proper i
00:41:39wanted them
00:41:39to behave themselves oh my lord this is all very fascinating name heart-rending but i fail to see
00:41:46what it's got to do with this case my lord this whole case rests on the truthfulness of the accused
00:41:52surely the jury must be able to know enough about her to judge that yes i can see that miss
00:41:57scott
00:41:57but i do hope that your examination of your client's background won't be going on too long
00:42:02no my lord now miss turner you said that you brought them up properly you mean that neither
00:42:09of your sisters are prostitutes yes i do mean that they both got good jobs in fact they're both married
00:42:14now and that pleases you yes of course it does now you still haven't explained exactly how you became
00:42:20a prostitute what became of your mother she had too much one night she fell off a bus how old
00:42:26were you
00:42:26then i was about 17. how did you cope with the children well i had to get money to make
00:42:31sure
00:42:31they properly looked after for when they left home and you did that yes by soliciting for men
00:42:36on the streets yes because you couldn't take them home i didn't want to a short time in the park
00:42:42or down by the canal knee tremblers mostly you know the sort of thing no i'm afraid i don't standing
00:42:47up
00:42:48oh i see when when when my sisters got married my lord they they they left home and my brother
00:42:55joined
00:42:55army and i'd been caught by it fuzz once or twice so i thought well it might as well move
00:42:59inside like
00:42:59i knew some blokes who used to look me up so i started at home are you ashamed of being
00:43:05a prostitute
00:43:07no i'm not ashamed i'm not proud of it either it's a job isn't it well it is for you
00:43:13but there
00:43:13are many people who wouldn't see it like that well i know that i mean i don't care do i
00:43:18don't you
00:43:20well there's there's no time to do about that but one witness suggested mrs lloyd if you remember
00:43:25that if there weren't women like you men wouldn't be tempted well if there weren't men looking for sex
00:43:31there wouldn't be women like us i mean it works both ways but not the punishments well no that's
00:43:37the way it is it's a man's world isn't it do you resent the fact that it's always the girls
00:43:40who get
00:43:41the blame no there's not much point you mean you and your friends accept the fact that if you are
00:43:47picked up for soliciting you just pay the fine and carry on well yeah you have to don't you do
00:43:54you know
00:43:54of any prostitute who has been picked up whilst working and then denied it in court no no not around
00:44:01here i don't i mean it's not worth it if the beak sorry if the magistrate know you you are
00:44:08a known
00:44:08prostitute then they're going to take police's word against yours aren't they and if you do deny it
00:44:13you get a bigger fine so you just go along with the system yeah it's not that bad really i
00:44:17mean the
00:44:17police are only doing their job straight people would really get on their backs if they never pulled
00:44:21in a working girl so they all is in every few months just to show it isn't legal you seem
00:44:25to have
00:44:26no feelings of personal animosity toward the police i am they're not bad am they all
00:44:31but in the magistrate's court you broke the rules the unwritten rules you pleaded not guilty
00:44:37yes i know i did that were a bit different i mean i i was not working i was shopping
00:44:41and i did have
00:44:42a witness that was a dead liberty well there are still the unwritten rules the policeman's word is
00:44:46law and so on yes yes and and if i probably if i hadn't had a witness i would have
00:44:51pleaded guilty
00:44:52so on this occasion you decided not to take the easy way out yes that's right yes actually if i
00:44:59had
00:44:59not had a witness i would probably have gone along with the system and pleaded guilty
00:45:04would that have been perjury uh well that is what we call in court a hypothetical question
00:45:09you did plead not guilty now was miss kershaw a willing witness willing she insisted it's funny
00:45:16ain't it straight people always think if you tell truth you can't be armed but subsequently mr hall
00:45:21appeared and said that you were soliciting him oh that's rubbish i was shopping but he said you asked
00:45:26him if he wanted to go with you now did you uh i could have done i mean but i
00:45:31wouldn't been serious
00:45:32what do you mean not serious i knew he wouldn't if it even if he did i was shopping joking
00:45:37yes i was and
00:45:39so was he now i have to get this very clear whatever happened between you and mr hall there was
00:45:44no
00:45:45possibility of it leading to any form of sexual intercourse no chance at all i was shopping now
00:45:51the constable said that you spoke to several men is that true well i could have done um i mean
00:45:57i've
00:45:57i know a lot of people on the high street if i see somebody i know i say hello you
00:46:01know i'm polite
00:46:01but you did not solicit anyone for sexual purposes no i keep saying i was shopping oh yeah nevertheless
00:46:08mr hall said that you approached him did you know who he was well i used to work the high
00:46:13street yeah i get to know people who work there did you ever speak to him we used to joke
00:46:18sometimes
00:46:19what about well he used to say house trade then i remember once he asked me and i said it
00:46:25were
00:46:26terrible he said i can't afford your prices i'm waiting for january sales did you take him seriously
00:46:33no he couldn't get involved could he not with his job but you weren't unfriendly no he's not a bad
00:46:39bloke really for a security man that is now what about mrs lloyd do you know her well i know
00:46:46by
00:46:46sight i've never spoken to her why not she always looks away when she sees me she's doing it now
00:46:52or
00:46:52she looks daggers you formed the impression that she did not like you well that's not hard she's a
00:46:57very typical uptight lady so you weren't surprised to find her in the witness box no mind you i'm not
00:47:03complaining what do you mean well it's women like her that give us our best clients i mean the
00:47:08husbands can't get much fun at home can they oh my lord i'm sorry white miss scott i wouldn't think
00:47:15you serve your clients interests well by leading her into making such statements i'm sorry my lord
00:47:22miss turner you said that you used to work the high street yes that is true yes but you don't
00:47:29work
00:47:29the streets anymore no not worth the candle it used to be all right before my time but it's not
00:47:34now so how do you make a living well i've got regulars they recommend me to people you can always
00:47:42put
00:47:42a card in a shop window french lessons given swedish exercises taught you know the sort of thing so
00:47:48you've no need at all to take the risk of working on the streets no i can't even walk on
00:47:51them now let
00:47:52alone work on them thank you miss turner
00:48:15the cases in forchester crown court are fictitious and you can join us again tomorrow when the case of
00:48:20queen against turner will be concluded in the crown court
00:48:54sylvia turner a common prostitute was arrested for soliciting for an immoral purpose but was found
00:49:00not guilty at the magistrate's court the police were not satisfied with the verdict and after
00:49:04further investigation arrested miss turner and charged her with perjury on the basis of her
00:49:09evidence at the original trial the jury in today's trial is selected from members of the public whose names
00:49:15appeared on the electoral register and who are eligible for jury service we rejoin the trial as
00:49:21the prosecution council begins his cross-examination of miss turner now miss turner you have said that
00:49:27uh you weren't working on the day in question yes that's right i put it to you that you were
00:49:33standing
00:49:34in an accustomed spot on the high street seeing a man come along you automatically accosted him rubbish
00:49:40but you don't deny that if you were standing there working as you so charmingly put it you would
00:49:45solicit a man if he came along no i wouldn't deny that no um tell the court exactly what you
00:49:52did when
00:49:53you solicited the man well it varies doesn't it i mean you look at a man and you smile and
00:50:00you say nice
00:50:01day or nice evening you take it from there but you don't say that to every man that passes
00:50:07no just to the ones that look at you in a certain way i see but if mr hall had
00:50:11come up to you and
00:50:12asked for an appointment sometime you would have made an arrangement yes of course i would what
00:50:17do you think i'd do complain to police about him soliciting me you see i put to you that you
00:50:21were
00:50:21prepared prepared on february the 12th to take any work that was offered even though the primary
00:50:25object of your outing was shopping isn't that what miss scott calls a diabolical question uh my lord my
00:50:31client almost took the words out of my mouth though i'm not sure she isn't more accurate in saying that
00:50:35i
00:50:35would have been saying hypothetical i'm afraid you're caught mr parsons between the upper and
00:50:41the nether feminine millstones both are right yes my lord now miss turner you said you no longer work
00:50:50the streets yes that's true i don't but surely you gathered your regulars as you call them in that way
00:50:56in the beginning i did yes and surely for one reason or another these cease to become regulars and
00:51:02you have to find a fresh supply so to speak well i haven't had any bother that way no you
00:51:07mean you
00:51:07couldn't take any more clients if offered um yeah no i'm not saying that no yes so you do have
00:51:14time
00:51:14for more clients then well if you know of anybody i'm sure i could manage or you if that's what
00:51:19you're
00:51:19trying to find out miss turner that is a gross contempt of this court i warn you that if you
00:51:23attempt to
00:51:23say anything like that again you'll find yourself in prison yes i didn't in prison mr turner whatever
00:51:27the outcome of this perjury trial i'm very sorry my lord it was a joke we'll have no more jokes
00:51:31understand yes my lord yes carry on mr parsons thank you my lord now miss turner you are claiming that
00:51:38the police don't always arrest girls for soliciting in the street when they see them but they have some
00:51:44sort of rotor system yes that's right do you have any evidence to support this preposterous theory we all
00:51:50know it even fuzzles sometimes say come on love it's your turn tonight something like that yes
00:51:55but it's only your word isn't it it's only part of the folklore among prostitutes
00:52:01let's come now to the part of miss kershaw and this unhappy story
00:52:06you said that without her active encouragement you wouldn't have persisted in your determination to
00:52:11plead not guilty at the magistrate's court yes that's right yeah you would have pleaded guilty
00:52:15and accepted your punishment and all this wouldn't have arisen well it's it's not her fault
00:52:20for the bad losers is it well it's not a question of being bad losers miss turner it's a question
00:52:25of
00:52:25justice well that happened as far as i'm concerned in the magistrate's court but unfortunately for all
00:52:30of us an acquittal does not always mean the same as justice don't you wish now that you had accepted
00:52:37that you've been fairly caught and accepted your punishment i wish i'd pleaded guilty but that's not
00:52:42the same thing you accept that you work at a profession that many people find distasteful that
00:52:46some people even find disgusting you accept that you had at one time walked the streets you accept
00:52:51that you spoke to men there and yet when the police arrest you as they've done on several occasions
00:52:56before you and miss kershaw turn on a display of moral indignation and waste the time of at least
00:53:02two courts my lord my learned friend seems to be saying that innocent people pleading not guilty are
00:53:07wasting the court's time my lord the point i try to make here is that the word innocent is being
00:53:12stretched beyond this breaking point no one is claiming that miss turner is innocent of prostitution
00:53:17my lord in the eyes of the law she is because the law does not recognize prostitution per se as
00:53:22a
00:53:22crime i hope you're both enjoying scoring points but may i suggest that you save them for your speeches
00:53:28to the jury mr parsons pray continue without implying that the law exists to uphold anything but
00:53:36the law as your lordship pleases now miss turner you have said that you wish you had pleaded guilty
00:53:43at the magistrate's court i put it to you that is because you were guilty no i was not
00:53:48you accept that you're a prostitute you accept you were talking to a man you accepted if the
00:53:53conversation had come to anything you would have made an arrangement uh my lord my client did not
00:53:58admit that you will remember you ruled that as a diabolical question yes i'll rephrase that my lord
00:54:04please do miss turner what was the difference in your demeanor between the way you were standing
00:54:09in brannigan's doorway that afternoon and the way you would have been standing there if you were working
00:54:16none i suppose so you admit that to a policeman you looked looked exactly as though you were working
00:54:21yeah i suppose i did what does it matter because i wasn't working at the time
00:54:26yes uh but i must come back to the point miss turner that you said you were prepared to take
00:54:30extra
00:54:31clients now you were standing in a spot where you normally collected them but i wasn't soliciting at
00:54:37the time and you can't make me say that i was oh i've no wish to make you say anything
00:54:42miss turner
00:54:45what did you say to the policeman when he came up to you i said to him i said i'm
00:54:48not working yes we
00:54:49hear that you ever said that before mr have you ever said that before i may have well i put
00:54:57it to you that
00:54:58you heard that when you are working and a policeman comes up to you you deny it but don't deny
00:55:03it in
00:55:03court though we're not talking about the courts miss turner we're talking about the high street would
00:55:08you normally deny the fact that you were working when approached by a policeman i probably would
00:55:12deny it yes yes so when you told uh pc wilkins to go away he would have found that perfectly
00:55:20normal
00:55:20my learned friend is asking the witness to speculate my lord i withdraw that my lord
00:55:27were you surprised when pc wilkins didn't believe you no i don't suppose i was surprised no did you
00:55:35tell him you were shopping yes i did did you tell him you had a friend in the store no
00:55:40i didn't really
00:55:44you could have established your innocence there and then beyond doubt if innocent you were by
00:55:49telling the constable you had a friend in the store but you didn't do that no it didn't seem fair
00:55:53i mean
00:55:53i didn't know if she wanted to be involved i don't drag my mates down with me oh god you're
00:55:58not asking
00:55:58the court to believe that you didn't tell the constable you're a friend in the store out of a tender
00:56:02regard for feelings yes i do aren't prostitutes supposed to have feelings but you changed later that's
00:56:07because she insisted i told you yes sir you did it it all comes down to this doesn't it you
00:56:15were
00:56:15standing in the doorway talking to a man a doorway you use for soliciting but this time you tell us
00:56:21you weren't doing that that's true so let's come to the men you talk to you don't deny you talk
00:56:27to other
00:56:27men no as i say i know a lot of men because i've worked on the street and if i
00:56:33see somebody i know i say
00:56:34hello yes and some of these people were your clients no i don't remember talking to any clients
00:56:38that day oh so all of these men were potential clients well i'm talking to you does that make
00:56:44you a potential client because judge told me i can't solicit in court yes but you weren't in the
00:56:49court that afternoon you were in your regular prostitute's beat i don't have a beat i work at home
00:56:54ah yes and you told us miss sterner you left the streets because you've been picked up by the fuzz
00:57:00once or twice yes not because you particularly dislike the streets but because you've been picked
00:57:05up once or twice well it's better at home answer my question do you particularly dislike the streets
00:57:12no no i don't no not all that much no i don't and sometimes you like the occasional thrill of
00:57:17picking
00:57:18up someone new just to keep your hand in perhaps that's a joke that is after being a prostitute for
00:57:22nine years i can tell you there's no thrill in picking up a man really yes
00:57:28yes now you heard mr hall recall a conversation he had with you do you deny the accuracy of what
00:57:36was said could have been like that but he says that you invited him to spend a half hour with
00:57:43you
00:57:44that wasn't serious it was jokey just because i'm a prostitute i mean i don't joke
00:57:50come now miss turner you seriously asking the court to believe that you are known prostitute invite
00:57:55someone to your flat for half an hour and you're not serious i couldn't be i was shopping a lot
00:57:59of men joke with prostitutes i wouldn't dream of going with them they know it's safe it makes them
00:58:03feel big but you don't deny that you invited mr hall no look i might have said the words but
00:58:12it was a joke i mean i knew he wasn't serious it was a joke i wasn't serious a joke
00:58:18yes
00:58:21thank you mr mr have you ever tried to hide the fact that you were a prostitute that would be
00:58:29a
00:58:29bit deaf wouldn't it because if i was the only person who knew i was a prostitute i won't make
00:58:32much of a living would i precisely and you made the point that you worked from your home and did
00:58:37not
00:58:37solicit yes that's right did you enjoy it working the streets it's very risky working streets you've got
00:58:45a very good chance of being beaten up every now and again by clients that's right some men you see
00:58:49they don't enjoy normal sex just like hurting people and if you're on streets they think they've
00:58:53got rights over you well surely that must happen to you at home no not as a rule you see
00:58:58you've got
00:58:59regulars or they're the people that have been recommended to you anyway you've got more control
00:59:03in your own home but on the streets you have taken a few beatings oh aye so you're pleased men
00:59:09look
00:59:09as if butter won't melt in their mouth you get them down and bang you've got a black eye before
00:59:12you know
00:59:13where you are they just like hurting people out i mean i don't understand it myself so you were
00:59:17pleased that there was no need to openly solicit yes course i was and you don't need it anymore for
00:59:22the occasional thrill no people get the wrong idea about prostitutes they think because they like
00:59:28picking up people then we do but you see it's a job to us and anybody wants to do their
00:59:32job in the
00:59:32easiest possible way and for you that is at home yes it's still not that easy imagine my neighbors
00:59:38don't like it miss turner could you tell us again why you didn't wish to involve miss kershaw at the
00:59:43time it just didn't seem right really well would it be true to say that you would be against telling
00:59:50the police anything unless asked yes my lord my learned friend is blatantly leading this witness
00:59:57yes my lord i will withdraw that question miss turner can you think of any reason why the police
01:00:03should seek to charge you with a crime that you did not commit no thank you mr made a mistake
01:00:10and
01:00:10now they're trying to save face no more questions my lord you may return to the dock
01:00:24you are miss joan kershaw yes and where do you live ten elm mansions elm court fullchester
01:00:31and you are a social worker with the local authority yes how did you come to know miss turner i
01:00:38met her
01:00:38when she was in hospital she had an appendix operation that was about a year ago yes that's
01:00:42right i visited her routinely and we chatted we became friendly did you know that she was a
01:00:47prostitute oh yes she was very open about it and what was your attitude to that i was sorry about
01:00:53it
01:00:54sylvia's a bright sensitive girl and i was sure she could live a much more fruitful life than the
01:00:59one she was living but you don't condemn her for what she does as a social worker it's not my
01:01:03place
01:01:03to condemn or condone just help if i can i see now what happened on the day in question sylvia
01:01:11and i
01:01:11went out shopping together we had made several purchases and time was getting on we split up for
01:01:16a few minutes i went into brannigan's to buy some tights and sylvia went to the jeweler's she had to
01:01:21collect a watch that was being repaired we arranged to meet at the entrance of brannigan's what happened
01:01:26then i finished my purchase and when i came out she wasn't there who told you what had happened the
01:01:32supervisor at brannigan's she had evidently seen it and what were your feelings then i was shocked of
01:01:39course sylvia hadn't been soliciting we were shopping we were just about to have lunch at the
01:01:44red lion sylvia just would not have picked anyone up and just left me flat it's inconceivable but miss
01:01:50turner was and is a prostitute i know but she's given up working the streets she doesn't need to
01:01:56anymore she has a group of regular clients it's a surprisingly settled even sedate life and you're
01:02:03absolutely sure that miss turner could not have been soliciting absolutely thank you miss kershaw
01:02:13miss kershaw you sound almost envious of miss turner's life
01:02:17i don't follow you settled even sedate you said it is
01:02:21do you then approve of her profession no of course not i think she could do a lot more
01:02:29have a longer list of clients no do something else make more use of her mind not just her body
01:02:35yes she seems quite happy well she is now but how long is that gonna last i wanted to go
01:02:40to college
01:02:41and prepare herself for getting old becoming less attractive you talk as if you regard her as some
01:02:46sort of sportswoman a tennis player or a swimmer or something oh it's not so different a tennis
01:02:52player and a prostitute both use their bodies to entertain the public for money are you seriously
01:02:57suggesting miss kershaw that you can prepare someone who's dedicated themselves to preparing
01:03:03their bodies to a fine pitch of excellence with a common prostitute i wouldn't generalize like that
01:03:10some sports women abuse their bodies for gain take anabolic steroids for example yeah or in the case
01:03:16of some young gymnasts in eastern europe who take drugs to delay the onset of puberty i would consider
01:03:22this to be far more immoral than straightforwardly providing a sexual outlet for men some of whom
01:03:27are unattractive or crippled in body and mind you make prostitution sound like a noble calling
01:03:33a high form of social service it isn't not in this country it is in some others in japan for
01:03:41example a
01:03:42geisha is trained to a high state of perfection in providing social and physical favors for money
01:03:46yes but we don't live in japan do we miss kershaw no we live in a society that is hypocritical
01:03:54and
01:03:54dishonest we are not willing to face up to the problems of sex for those who cannot enjoy what
01:03:59we consider normal sexual relationships and we persecute those girls who do girls nobly sacrificing
01:04:06their bloom of youth to satisfy the lusts of men i didn't say that prostitution is often
01:04:13exploitive both of the girls and the men we can't evolve proper and civilized ways of dealing with
01:04:19difficult problems until we are willing to talk about it face up to it i see yes mr parsons my
01:04:27lord
01:04:28miss kershaw you use the word persecute do you believe the police are wrong to enforce the law no
01:04:35but when the arrest occurred for parading her sex in the streets you rush hot foot to save her from
01:04:40the consequences of her own law breaking i agreed to give evidence for sylvia because she was not
01:04:44parading her sex in the streets she was waiting for me nevertheless you've said quite clearly and
01:04:49unambiguously that you believe that we are dishonest and hypocritical no doubt you don't approve of the
01:04:54laws that prohibit soliciting that would be a problem i would have to face if i believe sylvia was
01:04:59soliciting as she wasn't the problem doesn't arise forgive me miss kershaw but it does arise it is not
01:05:07for you to tell all of us whether or not miss turner was soliciting or not it is for the
01:05:12jury to decide
01:05:13and to do that they will have to weigh your evidence and they will want to know whether or
01:05:18not they are listening to a woman who's completely contented perfectly normal healthy men and women
01:05:22should be accosted in broad daylight by someone peddling sex i accept there has to be a balance
01:05:28as long as society as a whole can't face up to its own sexuality there probably has to be
01:05:33controls in soliciting well i'm sure we're all properly grateful to you for grudgingly allowing
01:05:39us to maintain common decency in the streets i think we'll all we're all quite aware now of what
01:05:44your views in this are miss kershaw let's now come to the events of that day you said that you
01:05:51split up
01:05:51and agreed to meet at brannigan's that's right but after you split up you didn't see miss turner
01:05:57again that afternoon yes yes so actually you have no idea what happened in that shop doorway i know
01:06:04what i've been told and i weigh that against what i know of the people who told me yes we
01:06:09understand
01:06:09that miss kershaw we are listening to someone who openly supports prostitution who has referred to it
01:06:15as a high and noble calling and now you are trying to tell us that a prostitute didn't solicit someone
01:06:20who you didn't even know she'd been arrested we are weighing what you say but now answer my question
01:06:26directly did you from your own observation see what happened at brannigan's doorway no thank you
01:06:36have you ever seen miss turner soliciting yes about a year ago yes what did you do nothing at the
01:06:43time
01:06:45you watched this girl flaunting she wasn't flaunting herself she was discreet
01:06:50you did nothing about it you're a social worker and you saw this girl a girl who you claim to
01:06:56be
01:06:56friendly with offering her body in the street and you didn't go up to her and stop her she is
01:07:01her
01:07:01own person she must make her own life well it seems it's not just society that passes by on the
01:07:09other side don't you agree that as a is a social worker it is your duty to do everything possible
01:07:13to stop the exploitation of young women yes and this includes supporting a prostitute who is accused
01:07:19of soliciting if she wasn't soliciting yes of course i mean don't you agree that society has a
01:07:25right to expect social workers to do everything in their power to support that society it depends on
01:07:31the society it has a right to expect that the social worker will strengthen her clients that's
01:07:36all and in doing that some societies may be weakened and who is to be the judge of that i
01:07:42don't know
01:07:42about you but i still make my own moral decisions yes and the jury will have noted one of them
01:07:48to
01:07:48appear as a surprise witness in a magistrate's court to achieve the acquittal of a known prostitute i
01:07:54was a surprise witness only because the police have become used to prostitutes pleading guilty whether
01:07:59or not they are because they have learned even though the police haven't even bothered to prepare
01:08:04a proper case the bench will always take their word this surprises you that the bench wishes to uphold
01:08:09the law and its guardians that's very clever no sir it doesn't surprise me that the bench wishes to
01:08:16uphold the law but it would surprise me if you always thought that the law was upheld by its guardians
01:08:21well insofar as you are one of the guardians of that society it is surprising to me that you openly
01:08:28and willingly support someone who flouts the wishes of that society i'm not a guardian of society i'm
01:08:34the servant of my client and i hope i will always tell the truth to serve them whatever society thinks
01:08:40well your zeal sounds very impressive miss kershaw but we must remember in this case telling the truth
01:08:45as you put it is on behalf of a common prostitute who you compare to an international ballet dancer
01:08:51a sportswoman because they both sell their bodies no further questions my lord miss scott miss kershaw
01:08:58do you approve of prostitution as a way of life in general no of course not then how do you
01:09:03regard it
01:09:04as a product of a sick society when everything else is measured in pounds and pence why should the human
01:09:10body be the exception and in the case of miss turner you wish she would give it up altogether yes
01:09:14i wanted
01:09:15to get her qualified in something but your attitude to prostitution in general does not affect your
01:09:21attitude to a particular client of course not if social workers were always judging their clients
01:09:26they'd be useless we're there to help not to judge thank you miss kershaw you may go and sit down
01:09:40now perjury is a very serious offense in the eyes of the law our whole system of justice depends on
01:09:50witnesses telling the truth when they've taken their oath during the course of the trial if you firmly
01:09:57believe that the conversation between the accused and mr hall constituted a sexual approach then you
01:10:05must find the accused guilty but there is one principle of law that i must emphasize before you can find
01:10:15the
01:10:16accused guilty you must be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the crown has made out its case
01:10:22duties on the other hand before you can find the accused not guilty you must be sure that when she
01:10:30spoke to mr hall from that doorway or when mr hall spoke to her she had no intention of offering
01:10:40herself
01:10:41for sexual purposes now will you please retire elect a foreman and consider your verdict
01:10:58yes or no have you reached a verdict upon which were all agreed yes and do you find defendant
01:11:05sylvia turner guilty or not guilty of perjury not guilty
01:11:13miss turner you are free to go one moment we members of the judiciary are not apt to express
01:11:21our own personal views but there are times when as a matter of conscience a man cannot remain silent
01:11:30it is my opinion that the ruling in the house of lords in the case of regina v humphreys
01:11:38a similar one to the one that we've just been trying is one which is potentially extremely dangerous
01:11:45it is my view that prosecuting authorities should firmly set themselves against this decision by the house of
01:11:54lords and should determine never even to consider taking advantage of it
01:12:23the cases in fulchester crown court are fictitious you can join us again for another leading case in the
01:12:31grand court
01:12:33you
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