- 32 minutes ago
John Collins sits down with retired Army chaplain Jim Linzey, nephew of Franklin Hall, for a detailed conversation about Hall's life, ministry, and place in Pentecostal history. The discussion explores Coffeyville, Kansas, early Pentecostal networks, P.C. Nelson, Central Bible Institute, and the wider revival culture that influenced figures connected to healing revival and later charismatic movements.
The conversation also examines Hall's relationship to Latter Rain, William Branham, Oral Roberts, and other names often linked to the development of modern Pentecostalism. Along the way, John and Jim discuss stage personas, historical memory, doctrinal controversy, and why some religious figures are remembered very differently by critics, supporters, and family members.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John Introduces Jim Linzey And Franklin Hall
06:50 Was Franklin Hall Really Extreme?
07:46 John Wimber’s View Of Franklin Hall
12:03 Kansas, Pentecostal Roots, And Historical Influence
15:44 Franklin Hall And Latter Rain
19:43 From Latter Rain To Modern Apostolic Networks
22:56 P. C. Nelson, Coffeyville, And Hall Family History
34:52 Miracle Temple, Aimee Semple McPherson, And Healing Revival Connections
37:10 Winrod, Bosworth, And Fundamentalist League Questions
41:01 What Was Franklin Hall Like Personally?
46:23 Stage Persona Vs The Real Person
51:15 Theology, Judgment, And Who Counts As Christian
59:39 Where To Find Jim Lindseay’s Books
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
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The conversation also examines Hall's relationship to Latter Rain, William Branham, Oral Roberts, and other names often linked to the development of modern Pentecostalism. Along the way, John and Jim discuss stage personas, historical memory, doctrinal controversy, and why some religious figures are remembered very differently by critics, supporters, and family members.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 John Introduces Jim Linzey And Franklin Hall
06:50 Was Franklin Hall Really Extreme?
07:46 John Wimber’s View Of Franklin Hall
12:03 Kansas, Pentecostal Roots, And Historical Influence
15:44 Franklin Hall And Latter Rain
19:43 From Latter Rain To Modern Apostolic Networks
22:56 P. C. Nelson, Coffeyville, And Hall Family History
34:52 Miracle Temple, Aimee Semple McPherson, And Healing Revival Connections
37:10 Winrod, Bosworth, And Fundamentalist League Questions
41:01 What Was Franklin Hall Like Personally?
46:23 Stage Persona Vs The Real Person
51:15 Theology, Judgment, And Who Counts As Christian
59:39 Where To Find Jim Lindseay’s Books
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:28Transcription by CastingWords
00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:42And with me, I have my very special guest, Jim Lindsay, retired Army chaplain and the nephew of Franklin Hall.
00:00:49Jim, it's good to have you on and to talk about all of the things.
00:00:53There's so much that I want to talk to you about.
00:00:55But as you can imagine, with my research, I'm really wanting to explore Franklin Hall a good bit.
00:01:01And you had reached out to me, so things came together.
00:01:04And here we are.
00:01:06Maybe if you could just introduce yourself and tell everybody a little bit about yourself and your connection to Franklin
00:01:12Hall.
00:01:13Well, I'm very glad to be on your program, John.
00:01:15Thank you very much for having me.
00:01:17If I talked about myself, I'd probably never end.
00:01:21But I've done a lot of things.
00:01:23I've been a chaplain in the military, Air Force, and Army for 24 years combined.
00:01:29And right now, I'm the chief of chaplains for the United States National Defense Corps,
00:01:33which is a disaster response organization for national disasters.
00:01:39And so I head up the chaplaincy team for that.
00:01:42I am the chief editor of the Modern English Version Bible Translation.
00:01:47I'm an author.
00:01:48I've been in a Christian movie called Iniquity, update of David and Bathsheba.
00:01:53I played the role of a military chaplain in the movie.
00:01:56That was kind of neat.
00:01:58And I've done a lot of stuff.
00:02:00And I'm kind of like an entrepreneur in the ministry.
00:02:05And I invest in real estate in Oklahoma and Coffeyville, Kansas, where Franklin Hall was from.
00:02:15My mother was from.
00:02:16She was a pretty big name herself in the Christian movie recording, as I record also.
00:02:24I've got CDs.
00:02:25But my mother was a well-known author, Assemblies of God.
00:02:30And also, she eventually became ordained Southern Baptist and crusades around the world.
00:02:36And I was my mother's road manager, Verna Lindsay, Verna Hall Lindsay.
00:02:41She was Franklin Hall's baby sister.
00:02:44There were six in the family and two girls, four boys.
00:02:49And her father, Kerry Hall, passed away when she was two years old here in Coffeyville.
00:02:55I moved to Coffeyville four years ago after my mother passed away in 2016.
00:03:01A few years, several years later, I moved here, sold her home and my parents' home in California, Escondido, which
00:03:10I eventually owned.
00:03:11And, but I came here to, for two reasons, to be close to my mother's roots and to understand her
00:03:21background a lot better.
00:03:23It's a totally different culture.
00:03:25My dad was a Navy chaplain.
00:03:27He was the first full-time Navy Assembly of God chaplain in history.
00:03:32And he wrote for the Pentecostal Evangel for decades, article after article.
00:03:38But, so he was a pretty big name.
00:03:40And he had a reputable ministry, both of my parents did, on the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which I
00:03:46picked up on.
00:03:46I learned quite a bit.
00:03:47I wrote two books on the topic, and I've ministered on that topic quite a bit throughout the decades.
00:03:54But, so we moved all around the place.
00:03:56So we had a very good cultural background all across America.
00:04:02And, so, Coffeyville, Kansas, Midwestern rural town, is very different from anything I grew up in.
00:04:11And, but another reason why I moved here was because God told me there's money here.
00:04:17And that was the same thing that God told my great-grandfather on my mother's father's side.
00:04:27He told his two sons, go to Coffeyville.
00:04:30There's money.
00:04:31They were having a very hard time.
00:04:33He had fallen into a well and broke his back in Ohio.
00:04:37So, the two sons, William Cochran Hall and Cary Hall, they came here and got married and settled down.
00:04:49William Hall, Dr. Hall, he, my great-uncle, he operated on Emmett Dalton after the shootout here.
00:04:55And that's what Coffeyville is famous for, the Dalton Gang.
00:04:59And he was a very, they were a very predominant family, the Hall family.
00:05:04Went to the Methodist Church here.
00:05:08And, and so, God told me, come here.
00:05:12There's money here.
00:05:13And so, I invest here.
00:05:14And I've been very, very blessed.
00:05:16Our church has been donated to my ministry.
00:05:19I have multiple commercial buildings.
00:05:23And I sold that, and that's funding more ministry that I'm engaging in.
00:05:30And I had the blessing of the pastor who donated, donated it to my ministry.
00:05:35So, I did hear from God.
00:05:37And there, there's money here.
00:05:39Though it is in the, a very, a very depressed economic area of Coffeyville, southeast Kansas.
00:05:50Coffeyville is, which is where Coffeyville is.
00:05:52This whole area is very economically depressed.
00:05:55But you'll find a lot of money anywhere.
00:05:58I believe that God prospers his people.
00:06:01And God has blessed me abundantly.
00:06:05And I think that when we follow God's will, God will prosper you as your soul prospers.
00:06:11I don't know much about the prosperity doctrine that gets a lot of bad rap.
00:06:17I've not been ingrained in that.
00:06:20But just based on my experience, God has blessed those who serve him.
00:06:26And there are a lot of people who serve God who don't get blessed.
00:06:31You know, I have no answer for that.
00:06:33But I'm simply doing my best to be obedient to God and to be in his will and to be
00:06:40a blessing to other people.
00:06:42And I like to give to the body of Christ and to those outside the body of Christ.
00:06:47I like to let God's blessings flow through me.
00:06:50So, I'm particularly interested in Franklin Hall.
00:06:54And one of the questions that I was just dying to ask you as soon as you got on here.
00:07:00As you know, Franklin Hall, combined with William Branham's ministry, is seen as a catalyst for the Lateran movement, which
00:07:09did spawn the prosperity gospel.
00:07:11So, some people would ask, did this go back to Franklin Hall?
00:07:15But my question that I've been dying to ask you is, the Franklin Hall that historians have documented has a
00:07:23lot of critical information.
00:07:24What would you say that the critics have gotten wrong with Franklin Hall?
00:07:29Well, first of all, I don't know what many of them are saying.
00:07:33I don't, I'm not interested in what they have to say.
00:07:37Honestly, I really don't know.
00:07:40But what I do know is I do know Franklin Hall.
00:07:43And I know what he stood for.
00:07:46And I know what John Wimber, one of the ministers you admire so much.
00:07:53John Wimber was one of my professors at Fuller Seminary.
00:07:57And I took signs and wonders from him.
00:07:59He was my pastor for about seven years.
00:08:02He lectured on Franklin Hall at Fuller Seminary, of all places.
00:08:05And what he did was he demythicized Franklin Hall, along with a lot of other lesser-known evangelists.
00:08:14And he talked about the great ones and the not-so-well-known ones.
00:08:18But for a few weeks, he lectured on American evangelists.
00:08:23And when he got to Franklin Hall, I was shocked to hear him talking about Franklin Hall to the largest
00:08:27class at Fuller Seminary.
00:08:29We had 275 people enrolled.
00:08:32And the biggest class Fuller ever had.
00:08:34And most of the students were from the School of Theology, not from the School of World Mission that sponsored
00:08:39it.
00:08:39And it made some of the trustees very unhappy and threatened to stop giving money to Fuller if they didn't
00:08:44nix John Wimber's course.
00:08:46It was highly successful.
00:08:48And there's a lot of signs and wonders taking place in class.
00:08:52And I was a recipient of blessings in that class.
00:08:56And, but he lectured on Franklin Hall, and he talked about terminology that Franklin Hall would use.
00:09:03And then he would decode it and tell us what that meant.
00:09:07And it meant the same thing that the average Pentecostal believed.
00:09:12There was nothing really strange about Franklin Hall.
00:09:15What I concluded was that since Franklin Hall, he used terminology that was very common from the 1800s to the
00:09:26mid-1990s,
00:09:26in rural Kansas.
00:09:29And people in the outside world did not understand his terminology and just labeled it a cult.
00:09:36And it was not.
00:09:37Now, for example, body felt salvation.
00:09:41That sounds kind of strange.
00:09:42All that meant was physical healing.
00:09:45Heart felt salvation.
00:09:47It just meant you're saved by faith through Jesus Christ.
00:09:50You know, there was nothing weird about anything he taught.
00:09:54It was just the terminology, which was conventional theology for his time, where he was from.
00:10:01Now, if there is something that is bizarre about his teaching that I'm not aware of, feel free to tell
00:10:09me and educate me on the topic.
00:10:11But I'm really not aware of anything that was far out.
00:10:18My perspective on theology is that we're not saved by theology.
00:10:23We're saved by a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
00:10:27And he certainly had that.
00:10:29And you go before the Nicaean Creed, before the Council of Nicaea, there were many forms of Christianity.
00:10:40And some believed weird things.
00:10:42Some did not.
00:10:43Some didn't believe in the virgin birth.
00:10:45Many did.
00:10:46Some didn't believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus.
00:10:48Some did.
00:10:49And there were different interpretations of that.
00:10:52But they all believed in the divinity of Christ in some way or another.
00:10:56And they were all called Christians.
00:10:57Christians, but not when you got to the Council of Nicaea, when they passed the Nicaean Creed, and then, oh,
00:11:04here's the list of things you believe, and that makes you Orthodox, and that makes you Christian.
00:11:08If you don't, you're a heretic, and we're going to kill you.
00:11:12I am an Orthodox Christian.
00:11:14I believe in the Nicaean Creed, but I believe that you can be completely saved and be okay with God
00:11:22if you believe something that's weird.
00:11:25As long as you have a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and you're not worshiping Satan, and that
00:11:32kind of thing.
00:11:33I'm actually glad that you answered in the way that you did.
00:11:36As you probably know, you and I may have some differing beliefs, and I welcome people who don't agree with
00:11:42me on everything to the podcast, because I've learned that if you're trying to look inside of a box, and
00:11:47you're only looking in one particular angle, you don't see what's inside the box.
00:11:51And I'll be honest with you, I would say a majority of my listeners are fully unaware that John Wimber
00:11:59took the position that he did with Franklin Hall.
00:12:03And I actually agree with Wimber on this.
00:12:06I know that later on, you can read through some of the histories, and some Pentecostal historians will say that
00:12:13Franklin Hall, his group went extreme.
00:12:15But he really wasn't teaching anything that was different than the rest of them.
00:12:19They just, I don't know what or why, I think maybe because it was connected to latter rain, and they
00:12:26saw him as part of a catalyst that sparked the latter rain movement.
00:12:30They associated him with latter rain, and therefore, you know, took the extremist position.
00:12:35But from what I've been able to learn myself, just studying different Pentecostals of that same era, it wasn't that
00:12:44much different.
00:12:45And he's, I grew up in, as we talked before the podcast, I grew up part of my life in
00:12:51Pittsburgh, Kansas, which was maybe an hour, I think, east of Coffeyville.
00:12:56I've been through Coffeyville a few times.
00:12:57And you're talking right here in Kansas, near the hub of literally what molded and shaped Pentecostalism.
00:13:07Charles Fox Parham wasn't that far from there either.
00:13:09So if you look to Kansas, and there were some other people that were in the fundamentalist movement that was
00:13:16helping to shape it.
00:13:17Well, P.C. Nelson was from this, ministered here in Coffeyville, came through all the time, and ministered in my
00:13:26step-grandfather's church.
00:13:28But I'll let you go on, and I'll talk more about that when you're done.
00:13:31Oh, yeah.
00:13:32I mean, there's so many things.
00:13:33I took an interest in studying Kansas Pentecostal history for a period of time because I was trying to find
00:13:41Pentecostalism kind of just brushed away Charles Fox Parham because of the scandals,
00:13:47which I can understand that.
00:13:49But if you take him away, you don't have Pentecostalism as it came to be.
00:13:54And, you know, there's just so much history there.
00:13:57One of the interesting history facts that I was able to connect through the spider web of connections in Kansas,
00:14:05and I'm drawing a blank on her name, but they called her Hatchet Granny.
00:14:10And she would go through Kansas, and she would take her hatchet and beat all of the – she'd go
00:14:16into a bar and just beat all the whiskey jars down.
00:14:19It's a crazy, crazy funny story.
00:14:21Thank God I didn't drink whiskey back then.
00:14:25I don't know either, by the way.
00:14:27Yeah, it's a crazy funny story, but she was connected to some of the politicians, and the politicians were connected
00:14:35to Gerald Wynrod, who was also fundamentalist, who was also in Kansas.
00:14:40And what I've learned is – I don't know if it's from a Pentecostal standpoint or because of the strong
00:14:49fundamentalist position in Kansas, but Kansas had a strong influence on modern Pentecostalism.
00:14:57I'll say it like that.
00:14:58It wasn't the total influence, but it did have a strong influence.
00:15:01So, I was interested to learn more.
00:15:04I did not actually realize until after I'd moved away from Kansas how close I was to all of this,
00:15:10and I wasn't that far from going over to Springfield, Missouri, where there's more Pentecostal history.
00:15:16It was – I want to say it was like 45 minutes from where I grew up in Pittsburgh.
00:15:22But anyway, all of this history to say, I kind of agree with John Wimber.
00:15:28It wasn't that much different, and somebody who would be trying to brand it as extremist would have to brand
00:15:35many of the things that they can claim as their foundational doctrines for Pentecostalism.
00:15:42They would have the same thing, right?
00:15:44Well, yeah.
00:15:46Yeah.
00:15:46He was a product of the culture of his time.
00:15:48And the era and the vicinity where he came from, the culture.
00:15:56I wanted to say about the latter RAIN movement and Franklin Hall's involvement.
00:16:00I don't know if you're aware that the Creation Research Institute – did I say that correctly?
00:16:09And I think it was Hank Hanegraaff.
00:16:11I read an article that they published where they said verbatim that Franklin Hall was the father of the latter
00:16:21RAIN movement in America.
00:16:23That was started in Canada, but here they said he was the father of it.
00:16:27Now, of course, they were extremely critical of Franklin Hall, as they are with every Pentecostal and the whole Pentecostal
00:16:36movement.
00:16:36So, I understand that.
00:16:39But when I read what they wrote about my uncle, I was proud of him.
00:16:45That was a compliment.
00:16:46He's the father of the latter RAIN movement.
00:16:48I never knew that.
00:16:51Here in America, though.
00:16:53I've got to qualify that.
00:16:54I think that's pretty neat.
00:16:56And so, I did some research on the latter RAIN movement, and I discovered there are some things that I
00:17:04may not agree with and don't agree with, but that doesn't mean that their views are not Christian.
00:17:14It is Christian when you take into consideration that the Bible allows for a variety of perspectives.
00:17:24You know, my perspective is that so long as it doesn't contradict the written Word of God, anything goes.
00:17:34Hey, why not?
00:17:35Martin Luther King taught that.
00:17:37Martin Luther, the Reformer, not King.
00:17:42There's no reason why you can't have variety and perspectives.
00:17:47And there are different perspectives in our Bible as well on different things.
00:17:54You know, some people call them contradictions.
00:17:57Okay, yeah, right.
00:17:58I believe that.
00:17:59But there's room for variety so long as it does not contradict the Bible.
00:18:05And just like the Gnostics.
00:18:08I'm not a Gnostic, but the Gnostics had different beliefs.
00:18:13Gnosticism is not just one monolithic belief system.
00:18:17There's a wide variety of beliefs that contradict one another.
00:18:22But they were all considered Christians because they followed Jesus Christ.
00:18:29And so, whatever the Latter Rain movement believed, fine.
00:18:34I did study and learn that they are the ones who promoted the five-fold ministry.
00:18:41Apostles, prophets, teachers, evangelists, pastors.
00:18:44And I understand, maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the Assemblies of God accepts that too.
00:18:51But that came from the Latter Rain movement.
00:18:53I understood that the Latter Rain movement was the forerunner of the charismatic movement
00:18:59in the mainline Protestant churches.
00:19:02And the gifts of the Spirit were not even widely accepted in the Assemblies of God
00:19:09until the Latter Rain movement came along and taught it.
00:19:13And it got into the charismatic movement in the mainline Protestant churches.
00:19:18And then the Pentecostals accepted it.
00:19:22So, that's kind of a twist.
00:19:25So, the Latter Rain movement came up with a lot of stuff that mainstream Assemblies of God
00:19:30and other Pentecostals, Church of God and Christ, is just common now.
00:19:35So, they can't just boo-hoo the Latter Rain movement because a lot of our beliefs came from there.
00:19:40Darrell Bock There is so much to unpack in what you just said.
00:19:43And like I said, I like people who have a variety of opinions, even if it doesn't match my own,
00:19:49because you can look into that same box and you can get different perspectives.
00:19:53And one of the perspectives that I have read, not just from what you just said,
00:19:58but I've read it from other Pentecostal historians.
00:20:02There are – and in fact, William Branham was the same way.
00:20:05Branham was in favor of some of the Gnosticism.
00:20:08He wasn't in favor of all of it, but he was in favor of it because why?
00:20:13Pentecostalism was adopting ideas that would have been compatible with some of the Gnostic beliefs.
00:20:19And so, you have a movement that is growing and developing, and they're accepting ideas,
00:20:25like you said, the five-fold ministry, the way that they taught it in Latter Rain.
00:20:30You're absolutely correct.
00:20:32The assemblies denounced Latter Rain.
00:20:35I've got a copy of their meeting notes or whatever.
00:20:39They denounced it, but then they accepted a lot of things that Latter Rain helped to generate,
00:20:44which is really odd if you think about it.
00:20:47And can you say that they truly denounced it, right?
00:20:50Fast forward to today's world.
00:20:52I've been able to trace through my research and through some of the people working with me,
00:20:56many of those ideas from Latter Rain came into the charismatic movement,
00:21:02went from charismatic into all of these apostolic networks that exist today.
00:21:07And can you say that Latter Rain even stopped?
00:21:09Because it's the same.
00:21:11They're birthing new ideas.
00:21:13The movement as it was named Latter Rain, yes, it may have ceased and fizzled out,
00:21:19but the ideologies that was forming through the men and women who were coming together to do this,
00:21:26those ideas came forward into today's world.
00:21:29That is correct.
00:21:30I totally, totally believe that.
00:21:32And I did see your documentary on the Assemblies of God history.
00:21:38And I learned things from you that I did not know.
00:21:45But I was shocked when I heard what you said about it.
00:21:49I was very shocked.
00:21:51But I understand now the issues that took place.
00:21:55My step-grandfather, my mother's and her brother Franklin's stepfather, F. L. Doyle, Francis L. Doyle,
00:22:05he was in Hot Springs there when all that happened.
00:22:09He was part of that and voted for the Assemblies of God to form.
00:22:14But I was dumbfounded when you showed on your screen the article that said,
00:22:24or the Advertising Church of God in Christ, a Church of God in Christ Assembly,
00:22:30something like that convention.
00:22:33And there were the words, Assembly of God, fragmented between all the other words.
00:22:40I thought, oh, my goodness, it really did come to the Church of God in Christ General Assembly.
00:22:48You know, that was kind of strange.
00:22:51But I wanted to say that back here in DeCoffeeville, I mentioned P.C. Nelson.
00:22:58Are you familiar with P.C. Nelson?
00:23:00That name is striking a bell, but I can't place who he is.
00:23:03I've come across so many names in my research.
00:23:05It's difficult.
00:23:05Yeah, and by the way, I am writing a book on the history of Pentecostalism in Coffeyville,
00:23:12which will feature the Assemblies of God history here.
00:23:17My step-grandfather, he pastored the first Pentecostal church here in Coffeyville in 1928,
00:23:26and that became the first Assembly of God here in Coffeyville.
00:23:30And, but it was back in those days, my mother was nine years old in 1928.
00:23:42When she was six years old, she said in her autobiography, which I'm trying to get ready to publish,
00:23:53I recorded her telling her life story.
00:23:58And she said that when she was six years old, the whole Hull clan, they attended the Methodist church.
00:24:06It's now called the United Methodist Church because two branches formed together,
00:24:11they can be united Methodists.
00:24:13And, but they all attended the Methodist church.
00:24:17And when she was six, she said Pentecost came to town.
00:24:22And she was referencing P.C. Nelson and the Pentecostal church that was formed here.
00:24:30And F.L. Doyle, his first wife died.
00:24:36And when Franklin Hall was 12 years old, about 12 years old, their father died.
00:24:47Cary Hall, my grandfather.
00:24:49My mom was two.
00:24:50And Franklin used to go into the attic of their big house that his father and uncle, Uncle Dr. Hall,
00:25:01built.
00:25:03And he would go into the attic and just wail and wail for hours before the Holy Spirit for a
00:25:12move of God.
00:25:13He was seeking something deeper.
00:25:15And he was Pentecostal at that time.
00:25:18He was just hungering for something deep.
00:25:22And, of course, losing the father was a big, big tragedy.
00:25:26He had kidney failure or something like that.
00:25:30And, but day after day, he would wail in the attic crying out to the Holy Spirit for more of
00:25:35the Holy Spirit.
00:25:37And he, on his own initiative, the Holy Spirit led him to the Pentecostal church
00:25:45in Coffeyville on East 7th Street and Linden Streets here in the east part of town.
00:25:51I've been there quite a bit to look at.
00:25:54It's an empty lot now.
00:25:57But I could see the tree line.
00:25:58I could see the sidewalk is still there where the cars used to park.
00:26:01And, but then eventually, the brothers and sisters and his mother followed him.
00:26:09And then after, I guess, a few years or so, Francis Doyle came to pastor it.
00:26:17And his first wife died.
00:26:18And so, they were enjoying the move of the Holy Spirit in the Pentecostal church.
00:26:25And my grandmother, my grandfather, he had started the Hall Music Company.
00:26:31And after he died, my grandmother moved the store next door to them.
00:26:36They owned a big plot of land.
00:26:39And a little ways over, they had a smaller building for the Hall Music Store.
00:26:46And then beyond that, they had my mother's grandmother's house.
00:26:53So, they just all lived together.
00:26:58And she moved it next door.
00:27:00And then Francis Doyle, he began to help at the Hall Music Store.
00:27:07These old radios and instruments, pianos and violins and trumpets and all different kinds of stuff.
00:27:16And he was getting acquainted with her.
00:27:19You know, not being flirtatious, but just helping because my mother's family needed help.
00:27:25They didn't have the father.
00:27:27And so, and also, you probably heard of that songwriter.
00:27:36He wrote, until then, Mansion Over the Hilltop.
00:27:41I can't think of his name.
00:27:43But this famous hymn writer, it'll come to me.
00:27:47He, his brother, Ray, used to go help out at the music store, too.
00:27:52Can you Google right quick the author of Mansion Over the Hilltop?
00:27:56While I'm talking.
00:27:58And, but one day, Francis Doyle was getting ready to come over to visit my grandmother, right next door at
00:28:08the house.
00:28:09And Franklin was working with Reverend Doyle.
00:28:12And so, Franklin rushed over to the house to warn his mother, Reverend Doyle's coming over.
00:28:20And so, you didn't do that unless you were interested in the woman in those days.
00:28:26Iris Stamphill.
00:28:28Stanphill.
00:28:28Stanphill.
00:28:28Stanphill, yeah.
00:28:29Iris Stamphill.
00:28:30And his brother, Ray, used to help out at the Hall of Music Store as well.
00:28:35So, you know, Iris Stamphill.
00:28:37You've heard of him.
00:28:38But he was from Coffeyville.
00:28:40A lot of famous people from Coffeyville.
00:28:42I can't tell you how many hours I have played that song.
00:28:46Oh, really?
00:28:47My mother recorded this song on her CD back in 2007.
00:28:54And it's out there now.
00:28:56The Triumphant Quartet, nominated for a Grammy Award, they backed her up.
00:29:00And it's a great CD.
00:29:02But so, when Franklin Hall came over and warned his mother, Reverend Doyle's coming over.
00:29:10My grandmother said to the kids, I better make my hair pretty or something like that.
00:29:15Because that meant he was interested.
00:29:18And so, she got her all self-prettied up really fast.
00:29:21And then he came over.
00:29:23And so, they had a nice, wonderful visit.
00:29:25And then after several months or so of being friends, they eloped.
00:29:32They eloped 19 miles north to Independence.
00:29:35And they didn't tell the kids.
00:29:38And then they came back.
00:29:41And they came in the front door.
00:29:43And I own the land now where that house used to stand.
00:29:46I own the land.
00:29:48And they were all born.
00:29:50All the kids were born in that house.
00:29:51And so, the grandmother comes in to the front door with her new husband and says to the kids,
00:30:00Well, here's your new daddy.
00:30:02And they weren't excited.
00:30:06And some of them said, He's not our daddy.
00:30:13But they got used to him.
00:30:15But then they loved him.
00:30:16He was just a wonderful, wonderful stepfather.
00:30:19But that's kind of a story about that.
00:30:22But here's what I wanted to get to.
00:30:24So, they're going to his church now.
00:30:27And he resigned from the church when he married my grandmother.
00:30:32I guess in those days, it wasn't popular.
00:30:36Even if your wife died to remarry.
00:30:40I guess that didn't go over too well in those days.
00:30:43So, he resigned to make sure there was no schedule in the church.
00:30:48But he was very well known and very reputable.
00:30:53And he was personal friends with a lot of ministers, including P.C. Nelson.
00:30:58And P.C. Nelson used to come through Coffeyville with preaching in that Pentecostal church.
00:31:08But on the weekends, see, he was the founder of Southwestern Bible School in Enid, Oklahoma.
00:31:14And that is what joined, what, Tony Ritchie's Bible School in Texas or whatever.
00:31:21It's now, it became Southeastern, I mean, sorry, it became Southwestern Assembly of God University.
00:31:30And now they named it after him.
00:31:32It's called Nelson University.
00:31:35But that's one of the major Assembly of God universities that P.C. Nelson co-founded in Enid
00:31:42before it joined two other Bible schools, actually, in Texas.
00:31:46I forgot the name of the third one.
00:31:50But when Nelson and his teachers from this Bible school and his wife,
00:31:58they would travel throughout the region on weekends preaching in the churches
00:32:03and getting people saved and teaching on prophecy
00:32:06and praying for people to receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
00:32:10as confirmed by speaking in tongues.
00:32:14But they went, where did they stay?
00:32:17Where did they stop in Coffeyville?
00:32:19It was the Hall family's house.
00:32:21Well, the Hall Doyle family house, because that was Doyle's friend.
00:32:28But then he became a friend to the whole Hall clan.
00:32:34But he and the teachers and his wife would be sitting around the kitchen table
00:32:39talking about salvations over the weekend and prophecy and end times.
00:32:45And my mother would say to her mother,
00:32:49can I get up and sit around the kitchen table too and listen?
00:32:52And my grandmother would let her.
00:32:55And so they sat around the table with P.C. Nelson.
00:32:58Now, P.C. Nelson, he was a Baptist minister initially.
00:33:06A Baptist minister who was at Azusa Street
00:33:09and got the baptism with the Holy Spirit,
00:33:12laid hands on P.C. Nelson, and he spoke in tongues,
00:33:15and that's what brought him into the Pentecostal movement.
00:33:19And P.C. Nelson was a world-class, I mean world-class Bible languages expert.
00:33:27And so he had all the knowledge and the training,
00:33:31formal training in Hebrew and Greek and Latin and theology
00:33:36and the know-how to start a Bible school,
00:33:40which my mother eventually went to,
00:33:43and she mastered Hebrew, Latin, and Greek.
00:33:46And she's on the translation committee for the Modern English Version.
00:33:51But anyway, that's part of the background with P.C. Nelson
00:33:57and the Hall clan here in Coffeyville.
00:34:00And, oh, I wanted to say that Franklin Hall,
00:34:03he went to Central Bible Institute
00:34:05after he graduated from high school here in Coffeyville.
00:34:09So he went to CBI over there in Springfield,
00:34:12Assemblies of God Institution,
00:34:14which I hear has joined, I think,
00:34:18with the Assemblies of God Theological Seminary,
00:34:22but whatever.
00:34:23But there's some of the background of the Hall clan
00:34:26and their involvement in the Pentecostal movement
00:34:29with P.C. Nelson here in Coffeyville.
00:34:32But they eventually, the Hall,
00:34:34my mother's immediate family,
00:34:36they eventually left here,
00:34:38went to Missouri, went to Wichita,
00:34:40where Reverend Doyle ministered in different churches,
00:34:44then to Enid so my mother could finish high school
00:34:48and then go to the Bible school there.
00:34:51But they eventually ended up in San Diego.
00:34:54And that is where Franklin Hall founded Miracle Temple
00:35:00and where he taught, pastored.
00:35:06And Amy Semple McPherson and Franklin Hall,
00:35:10they conducted what they called
00:35:11a Hallelujah Parade together in San Diego.
00:35:15Franklin did that in Coffeyville and Missouri and Wichita.
00:35:20I've got pictures of Hallelujah Parades
00:35:22where it looks kind of old-fashioned,
00:35:25but they would hold all these kinds of signs,
00:35:27these banners, repent or go to hell,
00:35:29Jesus saves, scriptures, and that kind of thing.
00:35:33And they would march down streets
00:35:34with trumpets and trombones.
00:35:37And my mother played the clarinet,
00:35:40and she was part of those too.
00:35:44But Catherine Kuhlman sat under Franklin's ministry
00:35:48at Miracle Temple before she was anybody.
00:35:51And so did William Branham.
00:35:54I think A.A. Allen did,
00:35:56but T.L. Osborne, A.A. Allen,
00:36:00and many of the other well-known names
00:36:02that you and I know about,
00:36:03they were impacted directly
00:36:05by Franklin Hall's book,
00:36:08Atomic Power with God Through Fasting and Prayer.
00:36:18Atomic Power with God with Prayer and Fasting.
00:36:21Yeah, thank you for telling me my uncle's title.
00:36:24But that book,
00:36:27T.L. Osborne wrote a comment for that on the internet,
00:36:30or someone posted it.
00:36:31So he endorsed it.
00:36:33But Oral Roberts got a hold of that
00:36:36before he was anybody.
00:36:38And he began teaching what Franklin Hall was teaching
00:36:41about prayer and faith and fasting.
00:36:43And so when you heard Oral Roberts on TV
00:36:46back in the 60s and 70s
00:36:48talking about prayer and fasting,
00:36:49he learned it from Franklin Hall.
00:36:51So it's really a small world.
00:36:53But he didn't gain the notoriety
00:36:57that Oral Roberts and Catherine Kuhlman did,
00:36:59but they were like students of Franklin Hall,
00:37:03but not in person.
00:37:04But William was,
00:37:05William Branham,
00:37:06and others were.
00:37:07It is far more connected than people realize.
00:37:10In fact,
00:37:10I'm going to ask you a question
00:37:11because I've been trying to find this piece of history
00:37:14and there's a puzzle piece missing.
00:37:16So William Branham's mentor
00:37:17was a director in the Fundamentalist League.
00:37:21And Gerald Burton Wynrod,
00:37:23who was from Wichita, Kansas,
00:37:25he was also a director in the Fundamentalist League.
00:37:29Wynrod had a newsletter that Branham's,
00:37:32I guess you would call him the mentor in theology,
00:37:35F.F. Bosworth,
00:37:36would write for Gerald Wynrod's newsletter.
00:37:40And Bosworth, as you know,
00:37:41was in the healing revival movement.
00:37:45Wynrod was,
00:37:46he became known as the defender of the Christian faith,
00:37:50taken after,
00:37:52I'm drawing a blank on the politician's name,
00:37:54during the monkey trial,
00:37:56Scopes Monkey Trial,
00:37:57all of this.
00:37:58They formed this.
00:37:59The what monkey trial?
00:38:00The Scopes Monkey Trial.
00:38:02It was basically,
00:38:03Never heard of that.
00:38:03Yes,
00:38:04basically,
00:38:04it was a fundamentalist stance against evolution
00:38:07and they had this trial involving monkeys
00:38:12or the idea that man came from monkeys.
00:38:15They were defending and showing it as a courtroom session,
00:38:19basically.
00:38:19But Wynrod founded the Defenders of the Christian Faith organization
00:38:25and Charles Fuller was a part of that movement
00:38:28that spawned off of this.
00:38:30And Fuller would go around with Wynrod.
00:38:32Wynrod again from Wichita,
00:38:34Kansas.
00:38:35Amy Semple McPherson invited Wynrod to preach at Angeles Temple
00:38:40on days whenever she was too sick to preach,
00:38:43apparently.
00:38:44So you've got all of these connections.
00:38:46I'm 99% sure that Franklin Hall was at least part of
00:38:52or at least supportive of the fundamentalist movement
00:38:55that Wynrod was pushing.
00:38:58And they're right there,
00:38:59not far from each other in Kansas.
00:39:01Are you aware of any connections between Franklin Hall
00:39:04and the fundamentalist leagues?
00:39:06No,
00:39:06I'm not.
00:39:07But it probably is documented somewhere.
00:39:11My cousin,
00:39:13Dennis Hall,
00:39:14Franklin's younger son,
00:39:16the older son died,
00:39:18he might know.
00:39:19I could ask Dennis.
00:39:20Dennis is living on the grounds of
00:39:23the International Healing Cathedral
00:39:24that Franklin built in Scottsdale or Phoenix.
00:39:30But I could ask him.
00:39:33But that's a good question.
00:39:35Probably so,
00:39:36because Franklin was connected with Amy Semple McPherson.
00:39:39You mentioned Bosworth.
00:39:41He was very tightly connected with P.C. Nelson.
00:39:46I now recall that.
00:39:48I think it was,
00:39:52I think Bosworth had invited P.C. Nelson
00:39:54to do a lot of preaching
00:39:57down in Texas or something.
00:39:59I'm fishing for details on that.
00:40:03Have you ever wondered
00:40:04how the Pentecostal movement started
00:40:06or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism
00:40:09transitioned through the latter reign,
00:40:11charismatic,
00:40:12and other fringe movements
00:40:13into the new apostolic reformation?
00:40:16You can learn this and more
00:40:18on William Branham Historical Research's website,
00:40:21william-branham.org.
00:40:23On the books page of the website,
00:40:25you can find the compiled research
00:40:27of John Collins,
00:40:28Charles Paisley,
00:40:30Stephen Montgomery,
00:40:31John McKinnon,
00:40:32and others,
00:40:33with links to the paper,
00:40:34audio,
00:40:35and digital versions
00:40:36of each book.
00:40:37You can also find resources
00:40:39and documentation
00:40:40on various people and topics
00:40:42related to those movements.
00:40:44If you want to contribute to the cause,
00:40:46you can support the podcast
00:40:48by clicking the Contribute button
00:40:50at the top.
00:40:50And as always,
00:40:52be sure to like and subscribe
00:40:53to the audio or video version
00:40:55that you're listening to or watching.
00:40:57On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,
00:41:00we want to thank you for your support.
00:41:02I would have a public outcry
00:41:04if I didn't ask you this question.
00:41:06I know so many people
00:41:07have studied Franklin Hall,
00:41:08and there are,
00:41:10as we mentioned earlier,
00:41:11there are those who have put him
00:41:13into the extremist category.
00:41:15And the problem with this is,
00:41:17the problem that I have with it,
00:41:18is that you can demonize people
00:41:20that sometimes had good intentions.
00:41:23And regardless of the outcome
00:41:24of the doctrine, etc.,
00:41:25there are some really good people
00:41:27who get caught up in some things
00:41:29that are the result of influence of others.
00:41:33And I can see,
00:41:34like you mentioned,
00:41:35his connection to Branham
00:41:37and Branham being in his services.
00:41:39I'm 99% sure you're right,
00:41:42but I can't find any documentation of this.
00:41:44I'm actually looking for that.
00:41:46I believe Branham was
00:41:48in Franklin Hall's services
00:41:49long before he was famous.
00:41:51Oh, yeah, that's true.
00:41:53Because he's up west.
00:41:54Yeah, that's true.
00:41:55Absolutely.
00:41:55So I would be falling behind
00:41:58if I didn't ask you this question.
00:41:59What did the,
00:42:01ignoring all of the religious stuff,
00:42:04what was Franklin Hall like
00:42:06from a personal standpoint?
00:42:08Franklin Hall was a very,
00:42:12a very compassionate,
00:42:17I would say compassionate.
00:42:19He was sensitive to people.
00:42:22He was very pastoral.
00:42:24He was an excellent uncle.
00:42:26I cannot have asked for a better uncle.
00:42:29When I was getting ready to go to seminary,
00:42:33I took a trip to Phoenix
00:42:34and I got to stay in one of his apartments
00:42:38and got to visit him
00:42:39and my aunt Helen at their home.
00:42:42He gave me an Aramaic translation of the,
00:42:46English translation of the Bible
00:42:47from the Aramaic,
00:42:48the Lamza Bible.
00:42:51Just a very, very,
00:42:53he came across like an intellectual,
00:42:55though he was self-studied.
00:42:57He didn't finish school
00:42:59at Central Bible Institute
00:43:00and in his,
00:43:04I read some old letters
00:43:05and he said he was bored,
00:43:08bored with CBI,
00:43:10Central Bible Institute.
00:43:12He wanted to get into ministry
00:43:13and learn faster
00:43:15and not this boring book work.
00:43:18But he came across
00:43:20like an intellectual to me.
00:43:22He knew a lot of stuff
00:43:24that the average pastor did not know.
00:43:27He was very well acquainted
00:43:28with Tesla technology,
00:43:32things that Tesla foresaw
00:43:34in the future,
00:43:35Franklin Hall was quite aware of.
00:43:38But if Franklin Hall
00:43:40repeated anything
00:43:41that Tesla said
00:43:43or proclaimed
00:43:44or discovered,
00:43:45then he'd be labeled
00:43:46a heretic
00:43:47or a cultist
00:43:48or whatever.
00:43:49But you hear from Tesla,
00:43:50oh, it's fine.
00:43:51That kind of thing.
00:43:52A lot of stereotypes.
00:43:56He was a very personal person,
00:43:59just a very compassionate,
00:44:00nice and kind individual.
00:44:04Now, when you get on the stage
00:44:07for his era of his culture,
00:44:11part of the authoritative
00:44:15pointing the finger,
00:44:16the hellfire and damnation,
00:44:18that was part of the culture.
00:44:20That was part of how you just preached
00:44:23and do a good job.
00:44:26Today, a good job of preaching
00:44:28is just talking.
00:44:30But back in his day,
00:44:32it was more of the dramatics,
00:44:34the pointing the finger
00:44:36and the hellfire and brimstone
00:44:37and getting people riled up
00:44:39to get to the altar.
00:44:41That was a style.
00:44:42That was not a description
00:44:46of his persona
00:44:48or his spirituality.
00:44:51But he was a very deeply
00:44:52spiritual person
00:44:54and very in tune
00:44:55with the prophetic.
00:44:57And recently,
00:45:00I don't know if you remember
00:45:02about, what,
00:45:02three or four years ago,
00:45:04all these hurricanes
00:45:06and storms
00:45:06on the Atlantic coast.
00:45:08It was like one after another
00:45:10a few years ago.
00:45:11Do you remember that?
00:45:11I do.
00:45:12Franklin Hall prophesied that
00:45:14in the 1970s
00:45:16and it's written.
00:45:17It's published.
00:45:18I took an excerpt of that.
00:45:21I edited it
00:45:22and Charisma News published it.
00:45:24So I got Franklin Hall
00:45:26published with his prophecy
00:45:27about what was going on
00:45:29at that time
00:45:29a few years ago.
00:45:31But he was very in tune.
00:45:33God spoke to him
00:45:34and showed him
00:45:36various prophecies
00:45:37when he was visiting
00:45:38the Canary Islands.
00:45:39He went there
00:45:40to seek God
00:45:41and that's where
00:45:43he got that prophecy
00:45:44and other ones too.
00:45:45But just a very nice person.
00:45:46You know, something you said
00:45:48in there I want to highlight
00:45:49because there are a lot
00:45:50of people that don't
00:45:51understand this.
00:45:52Many of the ministries
00:45:53that developed later,
00:45:55some of them
00:45:56did turn destructive.
00:45:58Some of them
00:45:58are highly destructive
00:45:59and they're all over
00:46:00the news today.
00:46:01They have painted pictures
00:46:03of men like we're
00:46:04talking about.
00:46:05Franklin Hall,
00:46:05William Branham,
00:46:06Catherine Kuhlman.
00:46:07They painted pictures
00:46:09about their stage personas
00:46:10as if the persona
00:46:11was the person.
00:46:13And what happens is
00:46:14anybody who's against
00:46:15whatever destructive cult
00:46:18that emerged,
00:46:18they will link the persona
00:46:20to the destruction.
00:46:23But what you're describing
00:46:24matches what I find
00:46:26in my research.
00:46:26The people were far different
00:46:28from what they were on stage.
00:46:30There was a stage persona
00:46:31and there was a human being,
00:46:33right?
00:46:33And it wasn't hypocrisy either.
00:46:35That was a style
00:46:36of preaching.
00:46:38Absolutely.
00:46:39That was the style
00:46:39of not all,
00:46:41but there were many
00:46:41who were doing the same thing.
00:46:43So I have learned
00:46:45to try to disconnect
00:46:47what is the stage persona
00:46:50from the actual person.
00:46:51And in my research,
00:46:52what I have tried to do
00:46:53is research the person
00:46:55and ignore the stage persona.
00:46:57After I know
00:46:58who the person is
00:46:59and what they believe,
00:47:00what they stood for,
00:47:01then I start looking
00:47:02at the stage persona
00:47:03and try to see
00:47:04does that really match
00:47:05the person?
00:47:06And that,
00:47:07I don't know
00:47:07if you've done this exercise,
00:47:08but that gets crazy interesting.
00:47:10That's how I began
00:47:11with Branhamism.
00:47:12Once I realized
00:47:13he's using a stage persona,
00:47:15I started looking
00:47:16at some of the others
00:47:17and yes,
00:47:17absolutely,
00:47:18other people
00:47:19in the Pentecostal world
00:47:21are using stage personas
00:47:22and even some
00:47:24outside of the Pentecostal world,
00:47:25but I did not find
00:47:26it as common.
00:47:27But I started looking
00:47:28at his person
00:47:29and I started to notice
00:47:31that things about
00:47:32his stage persona
00:47:33that he's talking,
00:47:35he's mentioning
00:47:35about his person
00:47:36aren't quite true.
00:47:38And so then I had
00:47:39to separate,
00:47:40okay,
00:47:40some of them
00:47:41went so far
00:47:42as to create
00:47:42a fictional stage persona.
00:47:44And so that led me
00:47:46down all kinds of paths.
00:47:47In fact,
00:47:48that's why this podcast exists
00:47:50because I learned
00:47:51the difference between that.
00:47:53But I wanted to highlight it
00:47:54because what you said
00:47:55is really important.
00:47:56It was a speaking style
00:47:58for many people
00:47:59back then to have that.
00:48:01And the way
00:48:03that they preach
00:48:05angrily at people,
00:48:06it was to try
00:48:07to drive an altar call.
00:48:09And once they drove
00:48:10people to the altar call,
00:48:12whenever they left
00:48:13the building
00:48:14and they knew
00:48:14the actual person,
00:48:15not the stage persona,
00:48:17many of these people
00:48:18were very kind,
00:48:19gentle,
00:48:19spirited people.
00:48:20Well, the same thing
00:48:21happens in Hollywood,
00:48:25the acting field.
00:48:26You've got these
00:48:27famous actors
00:48:28with these screen personas
00:48:30and that's how you
00:48:32think of them
00:48:33in real life.
00:48:35You think,
00:48:36oh,
00:48:36that character
00:48:37who plays a bad guy
00:48:38all the time,
00:48:39I forgot the name
00:48:40of that character
00:48:41in The Mask.
00:48:42Remember that famous actor
00:48:43who played the bad guy
00:48:44in The Mask?
00:48:45Yeah, yeah.
00:48:46He comes out,
00:48:48what do you want?
00:48:49You know,
00:48:49whatever.
00:48:50I forgot his name,
00:48:52but he always plays
00:48:54the bad guy
00:48:55in movies
00:48:55and it's the same persona.
00:48:58But recently,
00:48:59I heard him
00:48:59interviewed on a podcast
00:49:01about politics
00:49:02and Donald Trump
00:49:03and what's going on social.
00:49:05He was just
00:49:05a very soft-spoken,
00:49:07real individual.
00:49:09And there's a stage persona,
00:49:11a screen persona,
00:49:12and there's a real-life persona.
00:49:16And even back in the 80s,
00:49:18I remember visiting
00:49:22the Assembly of God Church
00:49:24in Arcadia, California,
00:49:25not far from Pasadena
00:49:27where I was going
00:49:27to Fuller Seminary.
00:49:30And the pastor there,
00:49:31he was elderly,
00:49:33but when he would preach,
00:49:35it was the hyped-up style,
00:49:39kind of like what
00:49:41we're talking about.
00:49:43And every other word
00:49:44is and,
00:49:45and,
00:49:45and,
00:49:46you know,
00:49:46not foaming out the mouth,
00:49:48but nearly foaming out the mouth,
00:49:49you know,
00:49:49just getting the gospel out.
00:49:51And one time,
00:49:52in one sermon,
00:49:53I counted every time he said and,
00:49:55it was like over 300 times.
00:50:00My dad kind of shamed me
00:50:02for counting.
00:50:04My dad was a guest speaker
00:50:06that night.
00:50:08But I had to learn.
00:50:12I've learned throughout the years
00:50:14to not be so critical.
00:50:17But I think it's part of my upbringing
00:50:19because I'm a perfectionist.
00:50:21And so,
00:50:23I have a very high standard
00:50:26in so many areas of life.
00:50:29Not that I'm perfect,
00:50:30but I'm nearly there.
00:50:34I'm trying to get there.
00:50:35I'm kidding.
00:50:37But,
00:50:39honestly,
00:50:40my standards are high
00:50:41and my parents did set high standards.
00:50:43And I think they raised a perfectionist
00:50:46without realizing it.
00:50:50They weren't perfectionists,
00:50:54though they simply did their best.
00:50:57And they tried to be their best
00:51:00in everything they did.
00:51:02That was just kind of the way
00:51:04we were raised,
00:51:06reared.
00:51:07I'm not an animal.
00:51:08Animals were raised.
00:51:10People are reared.
00:51:12So,
00:51:14anyway,
00:51:15I think that the church
00:51:18overall
00:51:19is extremely judgmental.
00:51:24Extremely judgmental.
00:51:26And what I have found,
00:51:28for example,
00:51:29with people who will look at
00:51:31William Branham,
00:51:33Franklin Hall,
00:51:34and others,
00:51:37and I am abhorred
00:51:39by when I heard you describe
00:51:43William Branham
00:51:43breaking an elderly lady's bones,
00:51:46I didn't know anything
00:51:48about William Branham
00:51:50until I listened to you.
00:51:51Yeah,
00:51:51it was actually
00:51:52Charles Fox Parham
00:51:53had,
00:51:54he and Bosworth
00:51:56had performed an exorcism
00:51:58where they snapped
00:51:59a lady's bones
00:51:59in Zion City.
00:52:00so that wasn't William Branham?
00:52:02Wasn't Branham,
00:52:03but Bosworth mentored Branham.
00:52:04I think that's where
00:52:05you probably heard.
00:52:06I just shocked
00:52:07that people would do that.
00:52:10I was heartbroken
00:52:11when I listened to you
00:52:12describe that.
00:52:13But I think that
00:52:15even today,
00:52:16the average Christian
00:52:18is judgmental.
00:52:20And what Christians
00:52:22will spout off
00:52:23like a pat answer,
00:52:24like a cliche,
00:52:26oh,
00:52:26salvation is a right
00:52:28relationship with God
00:52:29through Jesus Christ,
00:52:30you know,
00:52:30the pat answer.
00:52:32But once you come off
00:52:33with an idea
00:52:34that they disagree with,
00:52:35boy,
00:52:36you're going to hell,
00:52:37you're a heretic.
00:52:38Like,
00:52:39oh,
00:52:39it's no longer salvation
00:52:41by faith,
00:52:41it's salvation by theology?
00:52:44Am I missing something?
00:52:46But no,
00:52:47that's the way
00:52:47the church is today.
00:52:48Very two-faced.
00:52:50Very two-faced.
00:52:52Double standards.
00:52:53Hypocritical.
00:52:55That's a generalization,
00:52:56and generalizations
00:52:57are not true.
00:52:59But I find that
00:53:00quite a bit
00:53:02in today's
00:53:03fundamentalist
00:53:04and evangelical churches,
00:53:07and lesser,
00:53:09to a lesser degree,
00:53:09in the liberal churches.
00:53:11And I find a lot of
00:53:13saved people
00:53:14in the liberal churches,
00:53:15Methodists,
00:53:16Presbyterians.
00:53:17It's the ministers
00:53:20who are more liberal
00:53:21than the people
00:53:22in those liberal churches.
00:53:25But you can even
00:53:27be liberal theologically
00:53:29and have a right relationship
00:53:32with God
00:53:32through Jesus Christ
00:53:33because we're saved
00:53:34by the relationship.
00:53:35We're not saved
00:53:36by the theology.
00:53:38And remember,
00:53:39pre-Council of Nicaea,
00:53:41pre-Constantine Christianity,
00:53:44there was an acceptance
00:53:46of a wide variety
00:53:48of beliefs,
00:53:49and you were still
00:53:50called a Christian.
00:53:52And I see people
00:53:54that way today.
00:53:56I have shed myself
00:53:58from the
00:54:00Constantinian Christian
00:54:01worldview,
00:54:03the Nicene worldview,
00:54:04though I subscribe
00:54:06to the Nicene Creed.
00:54:07I'm Orthodox.
00:54:09But I don't think
00:54:10you have to be Orthodox
00:54:11to be saved
00:54:13and have a genuine
00:54:15right relationship
00:54:16with God
00:54:17through Jesus Christ.
00:54:18But the average
00:54:19church person
00:54:19cannot comprehend
00:54:20that today
00:54:21because they're so steeped
00:54:23in Constantinian Christianity.
00:54:25And that's an interesting
00:54:26point that
00:54:28I've tried to actually
00:54:29push this point.
00:54:31The destructive nature
00:54:33of some of the cults
00:54:34that emerged
00:54:35after latter rain
00:54:36taught people
00:54:37a very black or white
00:54:38mentality.
00:54:39And that mentality
00:54:41crept its way
00:54:42into the modern,
00:54:43even mainstream churches.
00:54:45So much so that
00:54:46if you're preaching doctrine
00:54:48and then somebody
00:54:49disagrees with your doctrine,
00:54:51well, it's black or white.
00:54:53You're either with us,
00:54:54you're against us,
00:54:55you're, you know,
00:54:56there is no in-between.
00:54:57There's no area for gray.
00:54:59And I know people who,
00:55:00I'm no longer
00:55:02oneness Pentecostal
00:55:03like I was,
00:55:04but I know people
00:55:05who were oneness,
00:55:06who gave their heart,
00:55:08soul, and life
00:55:09to Jesus Christ
00:55:10not understanding God
00:55:11in the same way
00:55:12that I did
00:55:12after I left
00:55:13and I came to subscribe
00:55:16to the things
00:55:17that you did.
00:55:18But yet they,
00:55:20while they didn't have
00:55:21my understanding
00:55:22of Jesus,
00:55:22they believed in Jesus.
00:55:24And so I disagree
00:55:25with a lot of my peers
00:55:26in that I think people
00:55:27can be saved in this.
00:55:28I just,
00:55:29my point in all of this
00:55:31is trying to help
00:55:32people understand,
00:55:33well, yes,
00:55:34while you can,
00:55:35there's more to learn.
00:55:36Don't stop there.
00:55:37You might learn
00:55:38and grow
00:55:38and go beyond this.
00:55:40And that's part
00:55:41of the reason
00:55:41I wanted to have you on.
00:55:42I wanted to learn
00:55:43from you
00:55:44and I've learned so much.
00:55:46I appreciate you doing this.
00:55:48Well, I'm very honored
00:55:49that you've had me on.
00:55:51I've learned more
00:55:52from you
00:55:53than you've learned
00:55:53from me
00:55:55based on your
00:55:56various documentaries
00:55:57that I got hooked on,
00:55:59literally.
00:56:00And I want to thank you
00:56:02for your mission
00:56:03because you're really
00:56:04doing a service
00:56:05for the body of Christ
00:56:06and I want to thank you.
00:56:07I appreciate it.
00:56:08It's a lot of work.
00:56:10It's a lot of fun
00:56:11and there's a lot more
00:56:12to learn.
00:56:13So, yeah,
00:56:14and when we realize
00:56:16that the more
00:56:19we grow in Christ,
00:56:21the more we learn
00:56:23about the nature of God
00:56:27and the nature of Christ,
00:56:29well, he is God,
00:56:31the more we realize
00:56:33that we don't know
00:56:35as much as we thought.
00:56:37The more we learn,
00:56:38the more we learn
00:56:39that we don't know
00:56:40a whole lot.
00:56:43And I think it takes humility
00:56:45to come to that realization.
00:56:50If,
00:56:51okay, I know Christ.
00:56:52I received Christ
00:56:53when I was five years old
00:56:54and I got the baptism
00:56:56with the Holy Spirit
00:56:56when I was nine years old.
00:56:57And I have grown
00:57:01since then.
00:57:03I've never strayed.
00:57:05No one's perfect,
00:57:06but I've never strayed
00:57:07from the straight and narrow.
00:57:08I've never went off
00:57:09into sin.
00:57:11You know,
00:57:12I've said all my life,
00:57:13I know Christ.
00:57:15But in the recent
00:57:17seven years or so,
00:57:20I've been learning so much
00:57:22that I've actually said
00:57:24to a few close confidants,
00:57:27I'm saved,
00:57:28but I don't know Christ.
00:57:30But you have to understand
00:57:31the context in which
00:57:33I said that.
00:57:34I do know Christ.
00:57:35But relatively speaking,
00:57:37the more I learn,
00:57:39the more I realize
00:57:40He is so deep
00:57:42and so infinite.
00:57:45There's more and more of Him
00:57:46that we realize
00:57:47we don't know.
00:57:48So relatively speaking,
00:57:50none of us know Christ.
00:57:51None of us know God.
00:57:53How can we?
00:57:54We're finite.
00:57:55But in our evangelical terminology,
00:57:58yes, I know Christ.
00:58:00And I am close to Christ.
00:58:03I'm close to God.
00:58:04I hear from God.
00:58:06There are different definitions
00:58:08of mysticism,
00:58:09but I see myself as a mystic
00:58:11in that I hear from God.
00:58:13And I receive numerous
00:58:15prophetic dreams.
00:58:17And Charisma News
00:58:19has been gracious
00:58:20enough to publish many of them.
00:58:23But God speaks to me
00:58:24and He reveals things to me.
00:58:27And none of it
00:58:28contradicts Scripture.
00:58:30And I think so long
00:58:32as we allow the Bible
00:58:34to judge what we believe,
00:58:37I think we're on safe territory.
00:58:39But I will say this.
00:58:41We don't know Scripture
00:58:42until you get into
00:58:43the Greek and the Hebrew.
00:58:44Because a lot of things
00:58:47that ministers are teaching today,
00:58:49theologians are teaching,
00:58:51which seem far-fetched,
00:58:53far-out,
00:58:54heretical,
00:58:56cultic,
00:58:57are actually in the Hebrew
00:58:59and the Greek.
00:59:00And yet,
00:59:01the church person
00:59:02who doesn't know anything
00:59:04is judging them.
00:59:06And one of the fallacious things
00:59:08about the church structure today
00:59:09in the congregational churches,
00:59:12that means
00:59:14Pentecostal,
00:59:14Assemblies of God,
00:59:15Pentecostal,
00:59:17where they vote in
00:59:18their pastors
00:59:18and vote them out.
00:59:19Here you've got
00:59:20these men of God
00:59:21who know more than anybody
00:59:23and that's why
00:59:24we vote them in,
00:59:24but then
00:59:25they sit under
00:59:27our judgment.
00:59:28We're the ones
00:59:28sitting in the pew.
00:59:29We don't know anything.
00:59:30We're judging them.
00:59:31Oh,
00:59:32you're teaching heresy.
00:59:33We're going to vote you out now.
00:59:34That's very dysfunctional.
00:59:37Systemic dysfunction.
00:59:39And I don't think
00:59:40that's going to get corrected
00:59:41until Christ comes back,
00:59:42unfortunately.
00:59:43Well, thanks again
00:59:43for doing this.
00:59:45You mentioned earlier
00:59:46you had some books
00:59:47and I was going to ask,
00:59:49where can people go
00:59:50to find those?
00:59:51Well,
00:59:51Amazon.com,
00:59:52the Modern English Version Bible,
00:59:54also the Fire Bible
00:59:55that the Assemblies of God publishes.
00:59:57It's in their edition
00:59:58of the Fire Bible.
01:00:00And the Holy Spirit
01:00:02and a Divine Appointment
01:00:04in Washington, D.C.
01:00:05My books are on
01:00:06The Baptism with the Holy Spirit
01:00:07and other books of mine
01:00:09and by my mother
01:00:11and by my father
01:00:12are on Amazon.com.
01:00:14Stanford E. Lindsay,
01:00:16Verna Lindsay,
01:00:16James F. Lindsay.
01:00:18L-I-N-Z-E-Y.
01:00:19Well, if you've enjoyed our show
01:00:21and you want more information,
01:00:22you can check us out
01:00:22on the web.
01:00:23You can find us
01:00:24at william-branham.org.
01:00:25For more about the dark side
01:00:27of the New Apostolic Reformation,
01:00:28you can read
01:00:29Weaponized Religion
01:00:30from Christian Identity
01:00:31to the NAR.
01:00:32Available on Amazon,
01:00:34Kindle,
01:00:34and Audible.
01:00:35LABISON
01:00:377
01:00:388
01:00:397
01:00:418
01:00:429
01:00:429
01:00:439
01:00:439
01:00:4310
01:00:449
01:00:4410
01:00:4511
01:00:4512
01:00:5115
01:00:5216
01:00:5322
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