- 2 days ago
John and Brantley dig into how “revival” gets defined, marketed, and used to build controlling systems across charismatic networks. The conversation compares IHOPKC’s culture to earlier streams connected to William Branham’s movement, focusing less on theology and more on the repeating machinery: recruitment, platform access, unpaid labor, and the way prophetic claims get reshaped when predictions don’t materialize.
They also explore how media technology (radio, then livestream) amplified influence, why big-city “impact” incentives can distort priorities, and how political partnerships can steer spiritual narratives. Along the way, they flag numerology, “blueprint” takeover tactics, and the high-risk territory of prophecy tied to death, money, and geopolitics—ending with a sober reminder to verify claims, track sources, and refuse fear-based control.
00:00 Introduction
02:49 Revival, Recruitment, And The IHOPKC Framework
06:02 Latter Rain, Anti-Accountability, And New Religious Structures
08:12 False Prophecy, Vagueness, And Fear-Based Authority
48:42 Repurposed Prophecies And House Of Prayer Expansion
55:33 Money, Influence, And Strategic Power Centers
57:24 Dominionism, Christian Nationalism, And Control
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
They also explore how media technology (radio, then livestream) amplified influence, why big-city “impact” incentives can distort priorities, and how political partnerships can steer spiritual narratives. Along the way, they flag numerology, “blueprint” takeover tactics, and the high-risk territory of prophecy tied to death, money, and geopolitics—ending with a sober reminder to verify claims, track sources, and refuse fear-based control.
00:00 Introduction
02:49 Revival, Recruitment, And The IHOPKC Framework
06:02 Latter Rain, Anti-Accountability, And New Religious Structures
08:12 False Prophecy, Vagueness, And Fear-Based Authority
48:42 Repurposed Prophecies And House Of Prayer Expansion
55:33 Money, Influence, And Strategic Power Centers
57:24 Dominionism, Christian Nationalism, And Control
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Brantley Smith, former member of IHOPKC.
00:48Brantley, it's good to talk through this subject that you've chosen for today.
00:52I've really, I've debated on how to bring this out, but we've mentioned a few times that IHOPKC was just
00:59literally the first time.
00:59And I know that I get a little bit of pushback from people who are in the NAR community, because
01:08if you study the Branham doctrines and compare it to IHOPKC doctrines, they are quite a bit different.
01:13In fact, the idea of what you had as revival and the idea of what we had as revival, it's
01:20slightly different because Branham believed in a pre-tribulation rapture, and there was no need for an end of the
01:26day's conquering.
01:26But if you understand the timeline of events and how things came to be, you begin to understand that there
01:34were men who noticed that something's wrong here.
01:37Branham had certain things that we believed to be true, and then other things, he missed the mark.
01:43So within that variance of missing the mark is what actually birthed what you came out of.
01:48So I want to talk through this.
01:51It's going to be a little bit delicate and tricky, and I know I'll get a lot of pushback even
01:55from, you know, from the Branham side and from the IHOPKC side, because doctrinally speaking, they're a little bit different.
02:02But if you look at the architectural framework that was established, it was literally Branhamism 2.0, led by Mike
02:09Bickle, but also by Paul Cain, who was William Branham's protege.
02:12So there's a lot of tie-ins here, and I'm going to do my best to try to untangle this
02:18for you, and we'll see where it goes.
02:21I'm very excited to hop in this conversation and selfishly ask you some questions, I guess.
02:28It's kind of the angle that I want to take this day.
02:30You always are interviewing people about their experiences and stuff, but you're, like, such an expert on this thing.
02:35And any time in our little support groups that we have and things, and people come up with a question,
02:41they're always like, we need to ask John this.
02:42And so today I'm going to ask you some stuff.
02:46And maybe the revival thing is a good place to start at.
02:50I was digging around in some stuff this week, two different things that kind of got my mind turning this
02:55way.
02:55One was an old, from the CIA reading room, we're going to go real crazy real quick,
03:01was one of those covert action magazines, which I know that you've seen before.
03:06We've had a conversation about, that was talking about the religious right and such.
03:09And then I was reading an old transcript of Mike Bickles from a One Thing conference, one of the first
03:14One Thing conferences.
03:16And what was shocking about reading that opening session from one of the first One Thing conferences
03:22was Mike's big recruitment message that was, like, central to it.
03:28He knew that people were coming in enamored by this idea.
03:33Revival was a big part of that, because people, like, that's like the golden calf in charismatic circles.
03:40But the thing that I think fascinates me the most about these conversations is not even the doctrinal side of
03:47it,
03:47but more, I guess if we can use the word authoritarianism, of how it sets up these cultures for control.
03:55If we use the C word, the cult word, as I've looked at, in just a short time I've been
04:00looking into this,
04:00these different groups that exist in offshoots, even from IHOPKC World,
04:04they may have their doctrinal or belief differences, but whenever you look at the structures of them
04:11and the methods that they use,
04:15one of the hallmarks of the houses of prayer is that they get cheap, unpaid labor.
04:21It's like, it's a big part of it.
04:23And so, they use some of those same tactics to talk people into walking away from careers,
04:28walking away from going to college, to sign up to do these things.
04:33And I know for me personally, and maybe this is how we started talking about revival,
04:37is that was, I grew up in the Assembly of God Church, which is obviously another offshoot of sorts,
04:43is revival was like the number one goal.
04:48Like, that was seen as the target destination.
04:51And what I realized, though, was that people never really thought much past a revival meeting,
04:57in a sense, that the revival was supposed to be this big transformational thing.
05:02But in my time, in my circles, all that meant was that we were having extended meetings,
05:06and everybody was coming to the church every night.
05:10And living through a small version of that during my time at IHOP,
05:16that does a number to your nervous system and causes certain things to happen.
05:21But I'm curious, like, what was that idea of revival in the context of randomism?
05:26Was it such a golden calf like it was in the NAR circles I was in?
05:30Well, first, let me unpack what is Branhamism, because I think that's a complex box that,
05:36if you don't really understand that, you can't understand how the architecture works.
05:41So, to almost every statement that you could make in the form of a question that you could ask me,
05:47does Branham side with this, or does he side with another group?
05:52The answer is almost universally going to be both, because he spoke through both sides of his mouth,
05:57and he kept reinventing himself over and over.
06:01So, we had groups.
06:03Remember, when this thing started, what they were attempting to do initially
06:08was to try to suck people out of the mainstream denominations.
06:13They had a doctrine that mainstream churches were cold and formal,
06:17they had become apostate, and we need a new thing.
06:20And so, what essentially that is, if you understand it, it is birthing a new religion.
06:25So, we need a new religion.
06:27We don't like the old one.
06:28That was the premise.
06:30So, they sucked people in from Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, you know, pretty well across the board,
06:37they were sucking people in.
06:38Well, what you ended up with was this weird scenario where, to be a leader in this five-fold ministry
06:45concept,
06:46you could lay hands on somebody and feel the power, strike through their hands into the individual,
06:53and then suddenly they're a new leader.
06:54Whether they're qualified, whether they're fit for ministry, whether they're a predator,
07:00you just had this weird thing where there was no boundaries.
07:03The Assemblies of God stopped and said, no, this is wrong.
07:06You guys can't do this.
07:07We need at least some credentials.
07:09And that was early.
07:10That was like 1949.
07:12But what happened is they sucked all these people in, but they had no system of accountability,
07:17and worse, they had no governing authority over them.
07:21So, you suck in a Baptist who's part of the latter rain, end of days revival,
07:25he's going to preach with a Baptist flair.
07:28Bring a Methodist, a Methodist flair.
07:30Bring a Pentecostal, it's like a Pentecostal and extremism steroids.
07:34It's really weird when you think about it.
07:38Now, broaden that to today as this thing has evolved over time.
07:42You had groups that believed in an end of days revival, which my group oddly did, in a way,
07:49which I'll qualify that in a second.
07:51And you had other groups that didn't believe it at all.
07:52Branham's dead.
07:54This is it.
07:55We're waiting for the rapture, etc.
07:57And that is because as this evolved, people took their own theologies and tried to adapt
08:03it to the prophecies that he made.
08:06And that's where I really want to head with this before we get into the broader discussion
08:11of revival.
08:12There's a passage from Deuteronomy, what is it, 18, I think it is.
08:16It says, whenever a prophet speaks, and I'm going off of memory in the old King James English,
08:23when he speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass,
08:27that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken.
08:29The prophet spoke it presumptuously.
08:32And here's the key.
08:33You shall not be afraid of him.
08:36In the Bible, in the ancient world, the prophets were something to be a little bit feared of
08:43because they were God's mouthpiece.
08:45And if they're speaking with the authority of God, and then the prophecy doesn't come
08:51in the past, this verse really labels them as a false prophet.
08:55They're speaking presumptuously.
08:57It's out of their own mouth, out of their own mind.
08:59And you can ignore this guy.
09:00Don't be afraid of him.
09:01God did not speak.
09:03This movement, with Branham spearheading it, changed things in a weird way.
09:10So when a prophecy was given, it was extremely vague so that they could try to come in later
09:15and make it fit.
09:17And if it never could fit, they would just strip out elements of the prophecy and say,
09:23this is the thing.
09:24This is what fit.
09:25But one of the prophecies Branham had early on was that Mussolini was the Antichrist.
09:32And he was going to bring in the end of days, yada, yada, yada.
09:35Well, he was siding with the Christian identity people.
09:38And he died not quite like Branham said.
09:41And that prophecy morphed into a different end of days prophecy, which if you go to charisma.com,
09:48you can read the list of seven.
09:49There's no mention of Mussolini as being the Antichrist.
09:53But it morphs and shifts.
09:55And the people morph and shift with it.
09:57That's the thing to understand.
09:59This is coming at a time whenever tent revivals were really big.
10:04And they were coming out of – there were people who were connected to the Christian Missionary
10:09Alliance, which had an end of days big revival, worldwide revival type theme with them.
10:15And Branham has key figures working with him that were part of the ministerial alliance.
10:20And it's – so what happens is the tent revivalists go out.
10:25They get the biggest tent.
10:26They're all fighting for the biggest tent.
10:27Who can get the biggest tent?
10:28Who can bring the biggest revival?
10:30And it is kind of like that, what IHOP KC had, in that they believed that they would bring
10:37this big revival.
10:37They would convert the world, and then Jesus would come.
10:41But what happened was, as you entered into the modern age, past the radio, now you're
10:48getting into the television age, things change quite a bit.
10:51Nobody really wanted to go sit in a hot tent in the summer.
10:54And you can sit right in your living room and watch it on TV, right?
10:58So there's a point in time in which this began to shift, and you can see the prophecies begin
11:03to shift as well.
11:04And then Branham dies.
11:07So everybody who is believing in his prophecies, which are about tents – that was the big
11:14revival, end of days revival thing for me – there would be this great big massive tent.
11:18Branham would go around the world, and he would go around the world once, and you would either
11:22hear it, or you were lost forever – very similar to what you had at IHOP KC, except
11:28for it wasn't a tent.
11:29No, it was Paul Cain's stadiums.
11:31Like, that's what it was.
11:32Yeah, exactly.
11:33I'll take it real quick.
11:34Exactly.
11:34So Paul Cain is key to this, to understand.
11:37So the prophecy is given.
11:39It's excessively vague.
11:40It doesn't happen.
11:42Rather than heed the advice of the Bible, this thing that this guy spoke was presumptuous.
11:47It doesn't come from me.
11:48Be afraid of him.
11:49What they try to do is they try to reinterpret it in different ways.
11:53So Paul Cain is actually mimicking Branham's original vision that there would be this
11:58big tent revival, which ironically, half of Branhamism doesn't even believe anymore.
12:03And he just reinterpreted it to be a stadium.
12:06Now we're going to have a stadium, not a tent.
12:08But he's missing the key part.
12:10In Branham's version of the vision, there would be this little room in the corner of
12:14the tent, and if you were lucky enough to get into that tent, and you were lucky enough
12:19to get to that room, you'd be given your new bodies, and you would step into the kingdom.
12:23There was an element of that with the stadiums.
12:26And you just triggered the memory, was that there was a tent of healing, is what it was.
12:32That they were talking about people being taken in on stretchers into this little tent, and
12:37then they would come out healed.
12:39And that was like part of the no disease known to man would stand before those people.
12:43So that was like a little repackage, it sounds like.
12:46Yeah, it sounds like it.
12:47Remember, this is an unusual world up until Branham died.
12:52If you go to Voice of Healing magazine and you look at any of the magazines, you're going
12:56to see hundreds of thousands of people in these big revivals.
12:59You're going to see hundreds, if not thousands, of ministers who are all joined into this,
13:05believing that William Branham and his movement and his theology was the biblical return of
13:13Jesus Christ.
13:14And T.L. Osborne, who's big in the Word of Faith, Prosperity Gospel, worked very closely
13:20with Kenneth Hagin.
13:21He said, and I'm paraphrasing, you can go find his actual statement on my website, but
13:25he says something to the effect, I don't care if you think I'm sacrilegious, but we just
13:29saw God come down in human flesh, and William Branham.
13:33Well, they believed that this was it, this was the big revival, we're going to have the
13:37big revival, and then he died.
13:39So what do you do with this?
13:41You either call him a false prophet, and all of this money that we have collected for this
13:46big movement that we have, we collect it in error, and we have to give back to the people,
13:51or we just simply say, well, he got it right, we just didn't understand it, so let's change
13:57some of the details.
13:59Yes, I was privy to a conversation, I won't say who the parties were, but it was around
14:06the changing of the IHOP prophetic history, and why certain leaders didn't blow a whistle
14:13about it.
14:15Specifically with, and I know that you've talked about it in different times on here, was with
14:19the death of Mike's brother, Pat Bickle, which was central to a lot of the prophetic history
14:25of Kansas City, like him being killed was going to be like a sign of like the revivals come
14:30kind of thing.
14:30And so whenever he died, which I think was like mid-2000s, like 2004 to 2007, somewhere
14:37in that time frame, it caused great disillusionment in the community because it's like, what do
14:43we do with this now?
14:44And in this conversation I was privy to was this guy was like, well, Mike had told me
14:48privately, like as far back as 1993, that Pat's healing was whenever he died and was eternally
14:55got his new body and all this kind of stuff, and he was healed at that point, and that was
14:59going to be the thing.
15:01But then it's like, but still those things that you said were going to happen didn't
15:04happen.
15:05Like, you know, it's these reinterpretations, and you see it with the Super Bowl prophecies.
15:12There was so many Super Bowl prophecies about the Chiefs, and I think it's, I think if there
15:17is a such thing as divine providence and little God winks that happen, I think it's that the
15:22Chiefs have turned into the Patriots of the 2015s, 2020s, of where they're winning every
15:28other Super Bowl or appearing in every Super Bowl, and they've won, what, like three, and
15:33we still haven't seen, you know, any kind of, any kind of revival.
15:37Did, was there a whole lot of competition, like land grabbing, I guess, with these tent
15:44revivals?
15:45I see in some of these movements I'm looking at, and I know it happened within the Kansas
15:50City prophet days, to where these leaders would come in and they saw other ministries
15:56or revivalists, if we use that term, as competition in a sense.
16:02So, they, like, kind of did whatever they could to get rid of them, and what was most
16:06common was that they would absorb them, in a sense.
16:09I'm seeing prophecy used as a tool a whole lot, of almost like coming under this apostolic
16:13covering of Mike Bickle or whoever.
16:17Were those kind of tactics being used, like in the tent revivals or in different aspects
16:22of randomism?
16:23You know, for me, that's one of the most interesting parts of all of this.
16:26When you think about religion as it has been presented by the movement, they're showing
16:33you these pictures of these massive crowds and this massive gathering.
16:37Everybody's coming into this big city, and it looks good.
16:41It sells.
16:42Especially, I had this conversation with Bob Scott.
16:45You go to some developing nation, and if you tell them that there's going to be dinner
16:50on the ground, you'd attract people for 100 miles, man.
16:52People would just come to this, and then you got this great photo opportunity.
16:56But here in the States, it's a little bit different.
16:59The people are spread out.
17:00You have the rural people, and they wouldn't necessarily come for food.
17:04But then it begs the question, why the cities?
17:08If I were a god, and I was looking at my people, and I was looking at the earth, and
17:13there's
17:13this massive, you know, grouping of people in this massive city, well, does that mean that
17:19I forget about the mom and pop who are out in the rural country on the farm?
17:23Do I not care about those people?
17:25And I've thought about the revivals, and it's just so odd, because the revivalists targeted
17:31places where they could get big numbers in the revival, and they could get a photograph
17:35of the big numbers.
17:36They didn't go to the middle of nowhere in the farm and say, tell your neighbors, the
17:41end is coming.
17:42The end is nigh.
17:43The revival is here.
17:44Join the revival.
17:45Because there wasn't numbers, there wasn't money, it just, from a logistical standpoint,
17:51it really wouldn't have even worked.
17:53And so then I was faced with the question, well, does God care about logistics?
17:59And none of it, just none of it made any sense to me.
18:02So as I'm looking through, you know, the development from the difference in the technological
18:11advances of the era, they would target whatever was the current advance that would give them
18:18the most people, which would, by default, give them the most money, sometimes the most
18:24power, and in the worst cases, more sex.
18:27And it's always those three, money, power, and sex.
18:29If you can get that, you're going to attract some leader of some sort.
18:33And remember, these are leaders that simply, if you lay your hand and do the wizard thing
18:39on them, they can suddenly become a five-fold leader, too.
18:43So you can't really trust that they have the right intention.
18:45Some of them did, but you can't trust that all of them did.
18:49The ones that target the big cities and forgot about the people out on the farm, I'm really
18:54bothered by this.
18:55Because if I wanted to tell people the end of the world is here, I truly believe it's
19:01here, and I want everybody who can be saved to be saved, there's no way I would avoid
19:06demographics of people.
19:07I would go to every single person that I could possibly go to, and that's not what they did.
19:12And that's a very Christ-like idea, though.
19:14I mean, like, Scripture tells us, he leaves the 99 to go after the one.
19:18And so, like, that's like, I think it's where we see, like, this almost capitalism influence
19:22of Christianity that I think goes broader than the movements we're talking about to where
19:28it becomes, you know, where can we have the biggest impact instead of a single person,
19:33a single human being being valuable.
19:36And one of the things you brought up and kind of alluded to, you talked about voice of healing,
19:40which was one of the things that came up whenever I was reading the, I don't know if you can
19:44hear, I got construction going down.
19:46So if you guys hear weird noises, that's what's going on, the remodeling the apartment
19:48below me.
19:50I just thought you had Taco Bell.
19:52That could be too.
19:54The voice of healing, and it talked about the radio stations, and I'm thinking about,
20:01like, you have to put yourself in the time period, like, to now, like, you hear somebody
20:05say they have a radio station, you think that there's some kind of nut job in a back room,
20:08but at that time, as you're saying, it was cutting edge.
20:11Like, that's how you had mass appeal, mass effect, the equivalent of doing, like, a live
20:16stream today is what it made me think of.
20:17It made me think of, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but the camera system
20:21that they had at IHOP was only used by two other companies in the world.
20:26It was a big motorized thing, and they ran 24-7 along with these people.
20:31It was, I think it was CNN and NASA that had this camera system.
20:35And so, like, that became a very big tool for recruiting.
20:40That's how I got connected early on, after I heard the IC stadiums prophecy, and that kind
20:45of drew me in as a worship leader, the nameless, faceless stuff.
20:49And then I started paying the 20 bucks a month of my own money I was making at the grocery
20:53store, working in the evenings, to subscribe to the live stream, and I would watch it every
20:57night, or put it on as I was going to sleep or something, and just listen to it, fall asleep
21:00to it.
21:02But the thing that shocked me was it seemed like that these other people realized the
21:06power of these radio stations that talked about these radio stations being bombed, which
21:10is nuts.
21:13What, like, how was radio used?
21:16Like, was it used as like a gathering tool, like a recruitment tool?
21:20Like, what were they doing?
21:21They were playing as teachings and those kind of things?
21:24The funny part about it is Branham did not really care so much about himself on the radio.
21:30What he really wanted, he thought more from a high-level organizational standpoint.
21:37He was very open to other people doing the things for him.
21:41So, like, even the recordings of his sermons, it wasn't him or his – he didn't even
21:45own rights to the recordings, which is really odd.
21:48He had other people who did, because what he cared about was gathering the crowds.
21:53If other people did the work, he didn't have to pay for a team, and there were people who
21:57just, like, volunteered.
21:58I'll record all your sermons, I'll travel with you, but I want to sell them myself.
22:02And so they got an incentive, they're selling it thinking they're going to get rich, which
22:06they – some of them had a little bit of money, not much.
22:09But what would happen is that was advertising material for people to come to his meetings.
22:14If you're sick and you're afflicted, well, calm, you'll get healed, which a lot of people
22:18came and not many people did, from what I can gather.
22:22Radio was much the same way.
22:24There were stations that played him.
22:26I've identified some stations that played him.
22:28But he wasn't as big of a radio voice as some of the other guys.
22:31What he did instead was he would get with some of the other famous radio voices, and
22:38so they would talk about him, they would advertise him, et cetera.
22:41So he's, like, in an upper tier above all of this, and then you had a layer beneath that
22:46was really doing all the legwork for him.
22:49And I don't know if that was Branham's strategy or if he just simply didn't care, but when
22:55you mix Branham with Gordon Lindsay, who did have an organizational mind, Lindsay is really
23:00orchestrating the business side of Branham.
23:03And he turned Branham's magazine, Branham's magazine, The Voice of Healing, it was initially
23:09just simply to advertise Branham because his nickname was America's Voice of Healing.
23:14And he had a column in a Pentecostal magazine called The Voice of Healing.
23:19He was an editor in it, which there's a little bit of oddity there.
23:23This is a man who's supposed to be illiterate, who didn't have a seventh-grade education,
23:29who barely can speak, but he's an editor of a magazine.
23:33So it's a little bit weird.
23:34The stage persona shifted and turned far more fictional.
23:38But what he did was he connected with Lindsay.
23:41Lindsay created a structure in which if you were part of this organization, you were heavily
23:49advertised in the magazines, you were part of the events, you might even have, I don't
23:53know if you had a booth or what, but you could distribute all of your materials, etc.
23:58And the better part is, which there's a little bit of gray here and I wish I could, I wish
24:03somebody on the inside would reach out to me, but they were collecting names and addresses
24:07not only for the subscriptions, but they would also have things like, we would love to send
24:12your sick friend a copy of Voice of Healing.
24:15Give us their name and address and whatever is ailing them.
24:18Well, if you've got names and addresses and you've got a movement that has literally told
24:23people that guessing your names and addresses is a thing of God, you start to piece this
24:28together, right?
24:29That it really, James Randi, who is a famous magician who left the magician field to show
24:35some of these stage tricks that they were doing, magician's tricks, he was uncovering all
24:41this kind of stuff.
24:41And I look back at it and I just, I questioned the validity of it, but there was a strategy.
24:49So back to your question, radio was used, but in Branhamism, it was more used to develop
24:56the movement and not just Branham alone.
24:59Branham was the publisher of Voice of Healing until Lindsay finally took it over completely.
25:04But they were advertising many men and they did have some radio sections in there.
25:09It was more about, let's grow the movement.
25:13And if you understand how that works, if you have a business mind, you start to understand
25:16that there's a guy at the top or one or two guys at the top and it turns into this
25:20pyramid
25:21structure where if you're at the bottom, you get in, well, the people at the top are the
25:25ones making all the money.
25:26And that's kind of how this seemed to work.
25:28Yeah, so that layered structure existed at IHOP and I was reading an article about the
25:34stuff happening with Bethel that we've been talking about with Awan on those episodes
25:37lately, that there's even examples, apparently reports within Bethel that the students would
25:46actually pay to intern for leaders is what it was.
25:51So like they would be students, but then they would have to pay and they would have to pay
25:54for their own plane tickets to travel with them and all these different things.
25:57But it was this access kind of thing.
26:00There was this whole second layer of leadership at IHOP that existed that was, the way that
26:08they made their money was profiting off the network is what it was, which sounds very similar
26:13as you're saying this.
26:13I'm connecting dots in my head of how this looked in my context, that there were certain
26:20leaders, I think about the Dave Slykers, Alan Hoods, different ones who I remember would
26:27travel frequently, not accusing anyone of anything, but they would travel to these different things.
26:34And that's how they made their livings was going on these itinerant circuits on the weekends.
26:40I think that was a really big reason, too, why Mike would have Friday night services, too,
26:45because people would be gone over the weekends doing ministry and stuff.
26:51Whenever I started looking at it a different way, yesterday I was having this thought of,
26:55I was thinking back through IHOP U, and these same guys were teaching these IHOP U classes
27:00during the week.
27:00So your Allens, your Corey Russells, these different ones.
27:03And what was funny is they would sell you textbooks for these classes that were published by these
27:12guys.
27:13So whenever they would have a class, not only would they get a stipend from IHOP U,
27:18which we've heard Alan Hood talk about in his own testimonies that he was in poverty
27:23pretty much his whole time at IHOP.
27:24But they would get paid their stipend from IHOP U, but then every student that enrolled
27:30in that class was buying their book, and they were making a cut off of the book as well.
27:34So it was kind of like this, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours kind of culture.
27:39And IHOP did so many services, like Mike did share the platform a lot, which is kind of
27:45surprising now, I guess, like in hindsight, like knowing what has, I guess, been revealed
27:50about Mike through stories and testimonies and things like that, is that he wasn't more
27:55protective over that.
27:56But I guess it was used as a tool as well for him to control people, to be able to
28:00give
28:00them that platform time.
28:01Um, but yeah, that, that broader social network that opens up, um, is what allows these guys
28:10to keep going is what I'm realizing too.
28:12So like there, there is a whole segment of IHOP KC leaders that after Mike Bickle's allegations
28:20went public, they dropped off the map and, and like, we're seeing them pop back up in different
28:25places at a pastor of a local church or, um, connected with this house of prayer in Dallas
28:30or wherever it might be.
28:32Um, but you realize that there's like real benefits for these things for, for these people.
28:37Um, I'm kind of circling back a little bit if it, if it's okay, but one of the things
28:42I was surprised to read, which I'd heard you talk about, but the dots weren't connecting
28:47with me, um, is dispensationalism talking about dispensationalism being used.
28:52And I, I realized as I was reading through this covert action magazine, which for, for
28:57those who don't know, it kind of function as like a watchdog journal, um, for intelligence
29:02operations and such.
29:03So these were investigative journalists that would publish articles.
29:06And this, this one I was looking at was specifically about the religious right.
29:10And so they, they were talking about these figures like Billy Graham, Tim LaHaye was one
29:13that like stood out to me because of the left behind books, um, were a big part of my
29:17childhood, um, but realize that, that these beliefs were, were grooming people for authoritarian
29:26control is what it was, what it was like.
29:29I don't know how, how, how, how else to say that in a, in a more gentle way.
29:33Did, did you see that, that the, I guess the, I don't know if Brandon was dispensationalist,
29:40but was like the doctrines and those kinds of things, did that predispose people?
29:44Like once they bought into the system to be controlled, like, was that, was that a thing?
29:49Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of
29:54modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe
29:59movements into the new apostolic reformation?
30:02You can learn this and more on William Branham historical research's website,
30:07william-branham.org.
30:09On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,
30:15Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,
30:21audio, and digital versions of each book.
30:24You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those
30:30movements.
30:30If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the
30:35contribute button at the top.
30:37And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're
30:42listening to or watching.
30:43On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
30:48So that particular question could actually explode into 10 to 20 podcasts.
30:54There's so much wrapped in that.
30:58So let me break it down, and this may take me a while.
31:02I'm going to do my best to do it quickly and let you talk as well.
31:05But let's first address, you're talking about Bickle being with other people, and you're
31:11talking about ministers who are training ministers, this kind of thing.
31:16Think of it like a, think of it like your job.
31:19If you come in entry level at a job, you've got a boss.
31:22And that boss often will tell you to do things that you think are just absolutely absurd and
31:28ridiculous.
31:29And you push back against the boss, and you see that next tier.
31:32That's all you can see is that next tier.
31:34Well, above him is a boss who's telling him on a broader scale, I want all of these bosses
31:39to do these things for an overall agenda that the rank and file employee can't see.
31:45Well, they push back because you're pushing back, and the boss above them says, no, I
31:51have a strategy.
31:52And they may or may not give that full strategy.
31:55Above those people are more bosses.
31:57And there are organizations that are flat, which is the modern style, but there are older
32:02organizations that it's very much like a pyramid.
32:05Whenever you look at this movement, and you look at how it developed, if you're thinking
32:12in terms of just your rank and file member Christian, and you see this strategy where
32:19you've got money, power, and sex, the people, you begin to understand people are their assets.
32:24But you only look at that one tier.
32:27You look at the Mike Bickle.
32:29You look at the Paul Kane.
32:30You look at whatever is that tier.
32:32But you have to understand, there are levels above this, right?
32:37And some of those levels may include government, which I'll get into that in just a second.
32:41It's a little bit weird and scary.
32:44But think back to, so Branham and Gordon Lindsay, they would be in the levels above the ministers,
32:50and that's probably why Branham didn't care so much about radio.
32:53They were creating a new organization, a new denomination, and they were holding deliverance
32:59seminars training people how to be in deliverance ministry.
33:02That's why deliverance ministry exists today.
33:04That was part of the voice of healing conventions.
33:06So these ministers would come into the conventions.
33:09Ministers, evangelists, prophets, apostles, they would all come and learn how to cure the demon
33:16of hiccups and whatnot in these conferences.
33:21And the leadership were the assets to the people above the leadership, if that makes any sense to you.
33:28And there were people above.
33:29This is a pyramid strategy, right?
33:32If you go back, you can find some videos of Branham preaching and healing the sick.
33:37There's this video, I think it's called Deep Call to the Deep 20th Century Prophet.
33:41But you can see on the platform behind him are all of these folding chairs of people on the platform
33:47with him.
33:48When Branham held a convention, it was not just him speaking.
33:51He would often be the end act.
33:56You know, there'd be other ministers.
33:57Derek Prince is one of the ministers who introduced and said,
33:59William Branham's coming out in a few minutes.
34:01So you had all of these people who are connected.
34:04They're all working for an overall agenda.
34:07And the people sitting behind him, and likely even Derek Prince, they're kind of assets in this movement.
34:14They may not see themselves that way.
34:16And people who are in their cult of personality today may argue against this.
34:20But that's really what they were.
34:22So you had this business structure that was in the shape of a pyramid with leadership at the top.
34:29Now, take a step beyond this.
34:32And I'm going to go slightly into conspiracy theory.
34:35I avoid this a little bit.
34:36Where I will go is documented.
34:38I'm here for it.
34:39You've got people who have large audiences, who have a global footprint,
34:46who are going into nations where there may be government opportunities.
34:53And you may have government agents, sometimes undercover, sometimes not,
34:57who are working with religious leaders to feed them information and say,
35:02hey, while you're there, can you do this thing for me?
35:04And they may be friends.
35:06There may be some relationship.
35:07So there are instances.
35:09And I've looked at the Billy Graham stuff.
35:10I actually have.
35:11I've not published it.
35:13I've got a lot of the CIA stuff on Billy Graham.
35:15It's kind of funny.
35:16But there are opportunities and instances where a minister could be manipulated by the government
35:23without knowing they're manipulated by the government.
35:27And there are cases where the government just might say,
35:31you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
35:32So there are things that happen like that.
35:35Is it insidious?
35:35Not really.
35:36But the minister who's doing it overseas won't likely know the entire operation that's going on by the government.
35:44So the government could be doing something that's just horrific.
35:47But the people who are ministers may only see one small piece of this.
35:52Richard Nixon is one of the famous ones.
35:55He was working with the full gospel businessmen who were largely Branhamites.
36:00I've got a photograph on the website of Branham in this National Prayer Breakfast meeting.
36:04And he's telling people that you ministers are our field agents today
36:10because the battle being fought against communism is a battle of the mind.
36:13We need you to step up and attack the battle of the mind.
36:18Not long after this, not long after Nixon gives them this charge,
36:22Branham comes up with this global end-of-days communism is going to destroy the world theme.
36:27Whereas prior to this, it was a Rome is going to destroy the world theme
36:31because they were against Romanism and all of the Klan stuff.
36:36So government sways prophecy.
36:39Government sways political ideas.
36:41You scratch your back, I'll scratch mine.
36:43Where it goes off into the weirdness, and I won't go too far with this.
36:47I do have some documents on the website.
36:50Branham's campaign manager as he began to tour the world
36:53was the Baron William T. Freire von Blumberg,
36:57the adopted cousin of Warner von Blumberg, Hitler's minister of defense.
37:02And he had a foothold in Germany.
37:06He had huge connections in Germany.
37:10He was also a director on the Fellowship International, the family.
37:15He was also the director of Bob Jones University.
37:20Or a director, I should say.
37:22He was also in a movement that was so strongly against homosexuals
37:27that they would brand people who were homosexuals as being unforgivable.
37:35And yet, he himself, the William T. Freire von Blumberg guy,
37:38was an avid homosexual, and the FBI tracked his male escorts coming into his room.
37:45So, and all that's documented.
37:47You can see it, you know, on the website.
37:49They cornered him and asked him,
37:50Why are you doing this?
37:51Why are you spreading this movement?
37:53What is your religious faith?
37:55And he said, I don't do this for religion.
37:57Which is really, really odd.
37:58If you think about what the Fellowship is and the connections there.
38:01We've talked about Bethel.
38:03Doug Coe is in the Fellowship, and he's working directly.
38:07He's in houses of famous people, right?
38:11So, if you take a step back and look at all of this from an agenda standpoint,
38:17it's not even so much that the people who are doing the agenda are fully aware of what's going on,
38:22because they don't have clearance to know the operation.
38:24But they know just enough where there is a collaboration.
38:30And if the minister or the evangelist has a political leaning towards the agenda,
38:37they will help further the agenda.
38:40And that's really the bottom line for this.
38:42This is the New Apostolic Reformation today, Branhamism, Lateran,
38:48and many of the elements that predated Branhamism was a merger of politics and religion.
38:54So, to answer the question simply, yes, they may be doing some things.
38:58Yes, it may be for the CIA.
39:00But they may not be fully aware of what they're doing and why.
39:03Yeah.
39:04It's interesting.
39:05I was in that covert action thing.
39:08It was talking about the Contras and Pat Robertson's involvement.
39:11And there was like documented instances where I can't remember the specific.
39:15I think it was three leaders who traveled to the White House to meet with like the Secretary of State
39:21or something like that with this Guatemalan revolutionary leader.
39:25I can't remember.
39:26I know it's Mont something or another who during the Guatemalan Civil War stuff.
39:31But they were talking about giving him resources.
39:34And Pat Robertson and them were pretty much like, well, we'll give him what he needs is like what it
39:38was.
39:38It went outside the government channels is the way that it alluded.
39:42And what was surprising to me as well is there was an account of a, I can't remember if it
39:49was a pastor or a missionary,
39:50who went into Nicaragua and then was captured and interrogated because the Nicaraguan government was convinced that he was a
39:57CIA spy,
39:58which was like, like just the fact that they thought that that was a possibility, I think to me,
40:03says that they've encountered that before or they have good reason to believe that that's going to happen.
40:08And then the other thing that was in the same kind of vein was Pat Robertson referring to CIA agents
40:17as like God's angels.
40:18So there was some kind of situation where the CIA agents came in last night and did save lives like
40:23it did.
40:23But he referred to them as God's angels, like they are angels who protect us kind of thing.
40:28And so it does seem conspiracy like it does.
40:31And I feel crazy like talking about it.
40:34But whenever you start reading these things and see these documented instances,
40:40you can't help but think that something bigger is going on.
40:43And I think about IHOP's political involvement.
40:45We had two leaders that come to the top of my mind right away that were around that were political
40:50leaders
40:50with Sam Brownback and Rick Perry.
40:52They did their big response event in Texas.
40:57And I don't think people realize the power that happens whenever you have a movement that you wholesale buy into,
41:04like the prayer movement.
41:06And you get those leaders on a platform with these other political leaders next to them.
41:12And you're talking about revival.
41:14You're talking about God's purposes.
41:15You're talking about these prophecies, these different things.
41:18Like it is manipulation at the end of the day.
41:21And that's the heart.
41:22And people have trouble because you have to deal with that thing of I've been duped,
41:26I think is what it is,
41:27that it's hard to reconcile.
41:29But I was duped for the majority of my life by that stuff.
41:34And then you get into like the voter guide stuff and the organizations who did that.
41:38Like it's crazy.
41:39Like once you start peeling back the layers,
41:41I think you're a whole lot less crazy once I start reading this stuff.
41:45Well, now you're going to make me geek out.
41:48And I said I wasn't going to go too deep.
41:50So I wrote this book,
41:52Weaponized Religion from Latter Rain to Colonial Dignidad.
41:56And again, this book could explode into a whole,
42:00actually it did explode into a whole series that I do called Weaponized Religion.
42:03But the Baron William T. Frey von Blumberg,
42:06who I mentioned was homosexual,
42:08who probably wasn't even Christian,
42:10they set up fellowship foundations by,
42:14I don't know if it's the same name or different names,
42:16but in different areas across the globe.
42:18He and Branham went around the world doing this.
42:21So there's a little bit of,
42:23if you're looking for a global operation
42:26and you want to do it through religion,
42:27well, now you have a global network to do this instantly.
42:30One of the networks that he set up,
42:32because he was German and had the German influence,
42:35was in Germany.
42:36He was there with Paul Cain,
42:38with William Branham,
42:39and they met their security team,
42:42which was led by Paul Schaefer.
42:44Paul Schaefer went on to found Colonia Dignidad in South America,
42:50where there's some insidious things happening there,
42:54but they were working with DINAA in Chile,
43:00which is the equivalent of our DIA,
43:03the military CIA.
43:04They set up a global operations where,
43:07from that compound,
43:08they were training people how to spy on other people,
43:11and they passed out,
43:12they planted estimated 50,000 bugs
43:16in everybody from Catholic churches,
43:18homes to musicians,
43:21to political opponents, etc.
43:24And the reason behind it was,
43:26they believed they were fighting a,
43:28in fact,
43:29the government branded it,
43:30World War III,
43:32but it was a covert World War III.
43:34So they were fighting against communism in South America,
43:36and this is largely,
43:39if you're talking Contras,
43:40this is actually what led to all of this.
43:42In fact,
43:43some of the people supplying the people in the Iran-Contra affair
43:47were in Colonia Dignidad.
43:49So it gets really,
43:50really sketchy,
43:51and they were extracting German political dissents,
43:57Nazis,
43:58out of Germany into Colonia Dignidad
44:01and spreading them throughout South America.
44:03It gets really weird whenever I look back
44:06at some of the churches that we had in Branhamism,
44:08there were churches that had a large concentration of German people.
44:12So I'm wondering,
44:14well,
44:15what all was going on there?
44:17Now,
44:17I'm not going to go too far with conspiracy theory.
44:19I have some suspicions of what's going on there.
44:22But what I will say is that
44:23everything that I've just said is documented
44:25and has now been declassified
44:28from Operation Condor.
44:30And Richard Nixon,
44:31who gave the charge to the people,
44:33who was,
44:33again,
44:34you know,
44:34Branham was right there in the room with him.
44:37Nixon was part of that global agenda,
44:40and it turns into this mess
44:43where you can't really say,
44:45you look at what happened in Colonia Dignidad,
44:47that was very militarized.
44:50But were they part of the agenda?
44:52Did they know the whole agenda?
44:53I don't know.
44:54They were definitely,
44:55they found chambers underneath the colony
44:58where they were torturing and killing political dissents.
45:01They were teaching them how to make sarin gas,
45:07some other things there in the compound.
45:10Hitler's,
45:11Joseph Mengele,
45:12the famous torture guy from the Nazi Germany,
45:16he was said to have been in the camp.
45:18So there's a lot going on.
45:21I can't go too far with what that means,
45:25other than the fact that
45:27once Branhamism shifted
45:28to where communism was the enemy,
45:31and we need this big end-of-days revival
45:33with this big tent,
45:35because communism is the beast and it's coming.
45:37Well,
45:38everyone who was trained under that theology
45:40would have thought
45:41that helping the government out
45:42in World War III,
45:45leading to the end-of-days war,
45:47against communism.
45:48They would have thought
45:48this was a good thing.
45:49We're gathering together,
45:51we're banding together,
45:51we're all one Christian body.
45:54So I think there's some of that going on,
45:56but at the same time,
45:57there's a lot of unanswered questions.
45:59That reminded me of what that,
46:01so it was a pastor
46:02that was captured earlier,
46:03and that was one of the things
46:04that was shocking about that story to me.
46:05Whenever you were talking about that,
46:06it came back to me,
46:07was that two of the people
46:08that were there torturing him,
46:10like when they were interrogating him,
46:12was two people that he recognized
46:14from the church networks.
46:15And that's whenever he looked up at them
46:17and he was like,
46:18he called them by name.
46:19They start talking
46:21and then they start apologizing to him
46:23and calling him brother.
46:24They're like,
46:24brother, we're so sorry.
46:25We picked up the wrong person
46:26is what it was,
46:27is what the story was.
46:29But to think that that guy
46:30was able to just move on
46:31because it was his people kind of thing.
46:34And that's kind of how they moved on.
46:36You bring up Colonia Dignidad.
46:38And so that was another thing
46:40that I was thinking about this week
46:41that I was like,
46:41man, I want to ask John about this sometime.
46:43I was always looking at organizational structures
46:48and different things
46:48because they do a whole lot of crazy stuff
46:51these leaders do with their tax statuses
46:54or their lack of accountability and such.
46:57But one that I had never noticed before
46:59is we're all familiar with like 501c3s.
47:02And you may be unfamiliar with this.
47:04I don't know.
47:05But 501c3s,
47:07we know like typical nonprofit,
47:08but I found out that there was a classification
47:10called a 501d
47:12that was specifically for
47:15like religious communities
47:17who shared everything
47:18and functioned as one unit.
47:21Have you heard anything about that
47:22with like brandimism?
47:23Because I know that there was a lot of cult compounds
47:25and things like that.
47:27Well, in brandimism,
47:28we were taught that the government
47:29was the enemy
47:29because of the Christian identity themes.
47:31And so I know,
47:33I won't get into names
47:34or anything like this,
47:35but I do know that there were some
47:37who weren't fully above board
47:40in their tax strategies.
47:42And some of them did not even have,
47:44as far as I know,
47:45some of them did not even have a 501c3.
47:49I was aware of the D,
47:51but I've not dug too deeply to know.
47:54And I don't know if you could.
47:55I don't know if you could know
47:56how many organizations are under this or not,
47:58but I've not dug too deeply, no.
48:00Yeah, it was just an interesting concept
48:02because whenever I was looking
48:02at the explanation of it,
48:03it was a very like book of acts kind of thing.
48:06We share everything,
48:07have everything in common
48:08in the way that it functioned.
48:10It's almost like a business,
48:11but almost like an employee-owned business
48:13would be the easiest way,
48:15I guess, for people to understand it
48:16is that the whole community shared the profits,
48:19but also the losses and everything else,
48:20the liabilities, that kind of thing.
48:22But it all came under this one central umbrella.
48:29I guess kind of as one of our last little,
48:33little forays here is we talked about editing prophecies
48:38and talked about leaving things vague,
48:44I guess.
48:45There is an instance right now
48:48that I've been looking at
48:50of a prophet who prophesied something in the 90s
48:53that was a, I say,
48:56a tragic event that involved the deaths of individuals.
49:00And then we fast forward
49:03and this thing actually happens
49:05about eight, nine, ten years later
49:09after this person meets someone very influential.
49:12It happens about two weeks after it,
49:14which is kind of ironic
49:15that it's in like these networks.
49:18But one of the things
49:19that we're having trouble doing
49:20is we've heard different stories
49:22of where this prophecy originated
49:25and who prophesied it.
49:29But there are also,
49:30the thing that I'm seeing
49:31is that there is a repurposing
49:34of prophetic words
49:37from Kansas City,
49:40different movements
49:40in these other offshoot streams.
49:44One of the things
49:45which I had mentioned to you
49:46before we started recording,
49:48I see this idea pop up over and over
49:50and it was shocking to me
49:51because as I was reading
49:53the One Thing transcript,
49:57Mike's recruiting people
49:58into the House of Prayer movement,
50:01telling people that they can do
50:01the House of Prayer where they are.
50:03He goes through
50:04and he lists about six city names.
50:06He lists,
50:07I'm trying to,
50:08these just from memory,
50:09the ones I can remember
50:10is that he did Orlando,
50:12Jacksonville,
50:13Denver,
50:15Pasadena,
50:15which whenever I think
50:16like cities to name,
50:18Pasadena isn't one
50:19that necessarily comes up.
50:20I would think,
50:21I would say LA
50:22before I said Pasadena.
50:24But these different,
50:25these different cities like this
50:26who like I fast forward now
50:28and look at these cities
50:29and these are big
50:30House of Prayer hotspots.
50:32Denver is a big one.
50:34They got the upper room.
50:34Denver is where Corey Russell is.
50:36Pasadena House of Prayer
50:37was a really big one
50:38and I think Paul Kane
50:39might have hung out there
50:40a little bit for a while
50:41but Pie Hop is what they called it
50:43actually led worship
50:43at one of their conferences once.
50:46But yeah,
50:47Orlando is another big one
50:49and that leader there
50:50is very politically involved
50:51and I think he blocked me
50:52on Facebook
50:53if I remember right
50:54because I was asking him
50:55about some of his political stuff
50:57he was posting
50:57and he didn't like it too much.
51:00But one of the things
51:01that I'm seeing repurposed
51:04is those hostile takeovers.
51:06We were talking about
51:06land grabbing earlier
51:07with revivals
51:09and the number five
51:12so the one thing
51:13that happened
51:14with the Kansas City prophets
51:15and what Kansas City
51:16called the blueprint prophecy
51:18was that there would be
51:19five churches
51:21and it would be
51:22at the north
51:22and the south
51:22and the east
51:23and the west
51:23and one in the center hub
51:27and what they would do
51:28is they would go in
51:28and use this kind of prophecy
51:30as a means
51:30of taking over
51:32other churches
51:34but it was also
51:35this obsession
51:35with five
51:36and so like
51:36I'm seeing this pop up
51:38in other offshoots
51:39I don't want to out
51:40where I'm seeing it
51:40but I'm seeing it
51:42pop up in these other
51:42offshoots
51:43where it's like
51:43a copy paste
51:44kind of thing
51:45but I'm also seeing them
51:47do the same things
51:48that the KCPs did
51:50in the 80s
51:51and 90s
51:53except
51:55they've not gotten
51:55caught yet
51:56in the way
51:57that the KCPs did
51:58so like
51:59with the Kansas City Prophets
52:00if you're familiar
52:01with that kind of stuff
52:02there was a thing
52:02that got strategically titled
52:05we'll say
52:05the Ernie Gruen report
52:07that was concerns
52:08about the aberrant practices
52:10of the Kansas City Prophets
52:11and such
52:11and some of the stuff
52:12that's detailed
52:12is this kind of thing
52:14of the prophets
52:15going into these churches
52:16and going in
52:18with quote unquote
52:19good faith
52:19and the next thing you know
52:20they're removing that pastor
52:22and inserting their own leaders
52:23different things like that
52:24do you see
52:26stuff like that
52:27happen
52:27within your cult circles
52:31there's so much
52:32to unpack there
52:33and we're getting
52:34towards the end
52:35of our time
52:36so I'm going to try
52:37to be really quick
52:38first off
52:39a warning
52:40to the people
52:41in the communities
52:42whenever you are
52:43talking about
52:44anything
52:45in the
52:46quote unquote
52:47prophetic realm
52:48that involves a death
52:49or involves
52:50a massive sum of money
52:52don't go there
52:53my warning is
52:55just simply
52:55don't go there
52:56because there is danger
52:57in the water
52:58don't swim
52:59second thing
53:00the fives
53:01man there are so many
53:03fives
53:03and threes
53:04and twelves
53:05and all of these
53:06different numbers
53:06I'll never forget
53:08when I was reading
53:08Irenaeus against heresies
53:10he was the first one
53:12who walked me through
53:13how heretical that is
53:14because the pagan religions
53:16relied heavily
53:18on these numbers
53:19what is the five
53:19the five are the moon cycles
53:21what is the three
53:22you've got the
53:23morning sun
53:24midday sun
53:25dying in day sun
53:26you can go through
53:28the entire ancient world
53:29with all of these numbers
53:30and you can identify
53:31which cults
53:32of the ancient world
53:34associated these numbers
53:35and Irenaeus said
53:36you've got Christians today
53:38that they think
53:39they can be more spiritual
53:40if they can throw out
53:41a three or a five
53:42or you know
53:42he goes down the list
53:43and that was
53:45considered
53:45that was deemed heresy
53:47long before
53:48the churches
53:49that we have today
53:50what happened was
53:52Pentecostalism
53:54whenever it began
53:55to merge with
53:56British Israelism
53:57and Christian identity
53:58they were bringing in
53:59weird end of day themes
54:00some of which involve
54:02these numbers
54:03numerologies
54:04and you had
54:04you had these weirdos
54:06who were coming
54:06into churches
54:07with models
54:08of the great pyramid
54:09of Giza
54:09showing how this
54:11is a prophetic
54:12timeline
54:12of the end of days
54:14and therefore
54:15doomsday is near
54:16we need our prophets
54:17to prophesy
54:18and so what
54:19happened is
54:20you had this onslaught
54:20of doomsday prophecies
54:22which is really
54:22really weird
54:23but what were they doing
54:24they were mixing
54:25paganism
54:26with Christianity
54:27and they were creating
54:29something new
54:29so last part
54:33of your question
54:34the hostile takeover
54:36remember
54:36in the beginning
54:38I talked about this
54:38the movement
54:40in general
54:41the strategy
54:42was
54:43let's suck
54:44everybody out
54:45of these apostate churches
54:46and that ties
54:49to
54:49the Christian identity
54:51theme
54:51they believed
54:52that
54:52the churches
54:53of America
54:54had been invaded
54:55and so you had
54:56pagan ideas
54:57they were strongly
54:58against the
54:59like the evolution
54:59idea
55:00was one of the
55:00big key
55:01political things
55:02then
55:02so they were saying
55:03that you have
55:04churches that are
55:04forgiving
55:05and aren't
55:05preaching
55:06against the
55:06evolutionist
55:07and you had
55:08all of this
55:08weirdness
55:08which
55:09you know
55:10whether you
55:10believe in evolution
55:11or you don't
55:12believe in it
55:13turning the political
55:14part into a doctrine
55:16that's preached
55:16in a church
55:17it's just kind of
55:18it's not the gospel
55:19I'll just say it
55:19like that
55:20so you had
55:21this weird
55:22politics thing
55:23with the intent
55:24to suck people
55:25out of the
55:26mainstream churches
55:26and get them
55:27so that you
55:28can indoctrinate
55:29them
55:30against the
55:30political things
55:31that you stand
55:32against
55:32that was the
55:33purpose and
55:34intent
55:35and the question
55:36still remains
55:37if it was
55:38about God
55:38would you not
55:39go to the
55:40field and
55:41preach to the
55:41farmers
55:41would you not
55:42go to travel
55:43through the
55:43farm communities
55:44same kind of
55:45thing is
55:45happening here
55:47which one
55:48of these
55:49NAR apostles
55:50would gladly
55:51give up their
55:52Cadillacs
55:53to go preach
55:54to the
55:55little farm
55:56communities
55:56and make sure
55:57that they're
55:57saved too
55:58make sure
55:58they're going
55:58to heaven
55:59too
55:59you're not
56:00going to
56:00find a lot
56:00of money
56:01in a convention
56:01there
56:02but if you
56:04go to one
56:04of the bigger
56:04cities
56:05you've got
56:06A
56:06a heck
56:07of a lot
56:07of money
56:08flowing through
56:08the organization
56:09B
56:10you've got
56:11a large
56:12number of
56:12people who
56:13can come
56:13see if
56:15you're doing
56:15the gimmicks
56:16like the
56:16you know
56:17the prayer
56:17cards
56:18this weird
56:19thing that
56:19they're doing
56:20they don't
56:21use prayer
56:21cards anymore
56:22but you
56:22have
56:22Facebook
56:23profiles
56:24Facebook
56:24profile
56:25not going
56:25to name
56:26names
56:26but you've
56:26got these
56:26apostles
56:27who are
56:27saying
56:27God told
56:29me that
56:29you live
56:30at this
56:30street
56:30you know
56:32all this
56:32weirdness
56:33well in
56:33a big
56:34city
56:34that's a
56:34heck
56:35of a lot
56:35easier
56:35to do
56:36because you
56:36can grab
56:37a phone
56:38book
56:38I mean
56:38if you
56:39have a
56:39I'll say
56:40this
56:40what's a
56:40phone book
56:41John
56:41can you
56:41enlighten us
56:43some of
56:44the so
56:45called
56:45prophets
56:46I believe
56:46had a
56:47had a
56:48perfect
56:49memory
56:49and I'm
56:50not going
56:51to say
56:51which but
56:51I think
56:51one of
56:52them might
56:52have been
56:52connected
56:52to KCF
56:54but I'll
56:55let that
56:56one go
56:56but anyway
56:57you target
56:59where you
57:00can make
57:01the most
57:01money
57:01get the
57:02most
57:02recognition
57:03get the
57:03most
57:03power
57:04because it
57:05is a
57:05game of
57:05domination
57:06think
57:07instead of
57:08thinking
57:09chess
57:10like God's
57:11a chess
57:11player and
57:12he knows
57:13how to
57:13advance
57:13the pieces
57:14think the
57:14opposition
57:15which are
57:16these
57:16NAR
57:16leaders
57:16are playing
57:17a game
57:17of risk
57:18build up
57:19my armies
57:19in this
57:20city
57:20because if
57:20I take
57:21this I
57:21can dominate
57:21this other
57:22city
57:22that's kind
57:23of what's
57:23happening
57:23here
57:24which ties
57:24back into
57:25nar dominionism
57:26and everything
57:26else like it's
57:27all at the
57:28end of the
57:29day that's
57:29that's the
57:29hard pill
57:30to swallow
57:30is that
57:31you look
57:32that I
57:33can't see
57:34a motivation
57:34other than
57:36control
57:36whether that's
57:37good I
57:38think that
57:38can happen
57:39with good
57:39intent I
57:40think people
57:40can maybe
57:42be a little
57:43slightly deceived
57:43and think
57:44that they're
57:44doing good
57:45work by
57:46controlling the
57:46masses I
57:47mean with I
57:48think that's a
57:48lot what we
57:49see with
57:49Christian
57:50nationalism I
57:50think people
57:51sincerely believe
57:53that forcing
57:54people into
57:55God's ways is
57:56helpful for
57:57society but I
57:58think it's a
57:59little misguided
57:59complicated but
58:01this this has
58:01been really
58:02fun I've
58:04enjoyed being
58:04able to bounce
58:05questions off
58:06of you and
58:08maybe if people
58:08enjoy this maybe
58:09we can do it
58:10again it's
58:10selfishly helpful
58:12for me
58:14absolutely just
58:15be sure you
58:16take everything
58:16that I say with
58:17a grain of salt
58:18go look it up
58:18and make sure I
58:19got it all
58:19correct because
58:19I'm trying to
58:20do all of
58:20this out of
58:20memory and I
58:22don't have one
58:23of the perfect
58:24memory so
58:26anyway thank you
58:27so much for
58:27doing this yeah
58:28well if you've
58:29enjoyed our show
58:29and you want
58:29more information
58:30you can check us
58:31out on the web
58:31you can find us
58:32at william-brannum.org
58:34for more about the
58:35dark side of the
58:35new apostolic
58:36reformation you
58:37can read weaponized
58:38religion from
58:38Christian identity
58:39to the NAR
58:41available on
58:41Amazon Kindle
58:42and Audible
58:58get it all
59:02do you want to
59:03get it all
59:03well
59:08and then
59:15take the
59:16you
59:19you
59:20go
59:27and then
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