Experience Over Theology: Why The Latter Rain Never Ended | Jed Hartley | Detangling IHOPKC

7 hours ago

John and Jed explore whether the Latter Rain movement actually ended or simply rebranded through successive waves of Pentecostal and charismatic renewal. Tracing connections from Roy E. Davis and William Branham to the Healing Revival, IHOPKC, Bethel, and the broader New Apostolic Reformation, they examine recurring doctrines like the five-fold ministry hierarchy, prophetic authority, dominion theology, and the elevation of experience over theology.

Along the way, they discuss spiritual elitism, political entanglement, and the cyclical nature of revival culture. By comparing historical Latter Rain teachings with contemporary NAR rhetoric, John and Jed ask whether modern movements represent theological evolution—or the same core agenda with a new paint job.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction
05:34 Did The Latter Rain Actually End?
13:47 Seven Mountains DNA, Supreme Kingdom, And Spiritualism Themes
20:22 Mad Lib Prophecies And End-Times Grooming
26:49 Lineage And How Ideas Get Passed Down
32:23 Five-Fold Ministry: From “Gifts” To Pyramid Authority
38:34 “Set Apart” Identity And Crisis Of Faith After Disillusionment
45:32 Us-Vs-Them Culture And Making Villains Inside The Church
51:25 Militarism, Invasion Language, And Political Fusion
57:40 Why It Produces Anger—And Closing Thoughts
______________________
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Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of

00:00:45a false prophet and former member of the International House of Prayer.

00:00:50Jed, I'm a little bit excited for today's episode.

00:00:53This is something that, honestly, I can't believe I haven't thought about it enough

00:00:57to do a podcast yet, but it ties into another thought that I had before, and what we're

00:01:03talking about today is, did the latter rain actually end?

00:01:06Which, if you know all of the history and you know how the movements work and how they're

00:01:10all connected, that's a fascinating question.

00:01:13But I'm going to pose it as even slightly further back.

00:01:17There was a point in time in which I learned that, see, in Branham's life story, in Branham's

00:01:23bios, he claimed in the later versions of his stage persona that he was a Baptist minister,

00:01:29he encountered Pentecostalism, he became a Pentecostal, praise God, and then this thing

00:01:35happened, and it was the post-World War II healing revival.

00:01:38I later learned that he was actually in a cult before the cult.

00:01:42He was in a cult by his mentor, Roy Davis, who we've mentioned.

00:01:46Oh, right.

00:01:47Davis was creating his own Pentecostal sect, the Pentecostal Baptist Church of God.

00:01:53Davis gets hauled off to prison, Branham becomes this big name, and then I find this one newspaper

00:02:00article where Branham is holding a revival under the auspices of the Pentecostal Baptist

00:02:06Church of God, long after Davis is out of the picture.

00:02:09And the question that I had at that point was, well, was the message, which is what we called

00:02:15our group, was the message just a continuation of what Roy Davis had built?

00:02:20And now, as I think through this, IHOP KC really is, if you understand it, it's really

00:02:27Branhamism 2.0, which would be a continuation of Latter Rain, which then would be a continuation

00:02:32of Davis.

00:02:34And if you understand the grand scheme of the hierarchy of things, that puts Davis actually

00:02:38at the top of this mess.

00:02:40So I wanted to talk through, did the Latter Rain actually end?

00:02:44Well, it certainly sounds like no is the answer to that, because yeah, I mean, the very fact

00:02:52that I grew up in a community without knowing any of, when I stumbled upon your research a

00:03:00couple of years back before we had even met and started talking, I was so shocked with how

00:03:08familiar a lot of the pre-iterations were of the things that I had experienced at IHOP.

00:03:16So specifically, the Latter Rain movement, understanding William Branham, understanding the rhetoric behind

00:03:24it, understanding the prophetic strategy.

00:03:27I mean, the use of prophets and the way that Branham would speak and speak about the end times

00:03:35specifically.

00:03:36Like, I think on your website, it led me on this long rabbit hole.

00:03:45This was way back.

00:03:46This was when I was just first kind of unraveling stuff.

00:03:50I had done a lot of unraveling about what I had experienced in my life, but just not knowing

00:03:56how it was connected to the larger scheme.

00:04:00And I remember listening to a bunch of Branham's sermons and the eerie way in which it reflected

00:04:11a lot of Mike Bickle's sermons and my father's sermons, or at least maybe not my father's sermons,

00:04:18but my father's rhetoric, and certainly Bob Jones' rhetoric, it felt very eerie to be like,

00:04:26oh, this is where it came from.

00:04:28And so, I mean, certainly in the 90s and the early aughts, IHOP was very much the living

00:04:36embodiment of Branhamism 2.0 and the Latter Rain movement.

00:04:40And this whole idea that in the end times, there will be this outpouring of the Holy Spirit

00:04:47that shall bring about the Joel's army, the young individuals who speak in tongues and prophesy,

00:05:02dream dreams, have visions, heal people.

00:05:05I mean, all of that was very much the world that I grew up in, and I am pretty confident

00:05:12it's different now because as much as I see it from the outside, I'm looking for that from

00:05:18the outside looking in.

00:05:20I think with IHOP, I think with Bethel, I think that there are at least the core elements of

00:05:26that are still there to this day.

00:05:31And in fact, we might be seeing a weird evolution of it because in the last 10 years, there's

00:05:38been a lot of like political dominionism that was always a part of, I mean, Roy Davis, like

00:05:45you talked about, was obviously involved with political.

00:05:48So like at the very beginning, there was a marriage between the sort of political movements

00:05:54movements in the United States and these spiritual movements.

00:05:59And so those were not always disconnected.

00:06:03But obviously, right now, we're seeing a greater manifestation of that to use to use

00:06:12NAR language.

00:06:14There's a greater manifestation of that connection between the political and this sort of dominionistic

00:06:24agenda of the latter rain movement to bring about the millennial kingdom.

00:06:31And that's the whole idea of Bethel, where they don't structure around end times theology

00:06:39as much as IHOP does explicitly, but they structure around millennial theology, which is just the

00:06:46same thing.

00:06:47It's just that this is a new era of when Jesus has returned.

00:06:51And I think that their theology, their eschatology is loose at best, because I don't think a lot

00:06:59of people there know exactly what they believe of the end times, whether Jesus has returned

00:07:04or the millennial kingdom is already here and the rain is beginning.

00:07:08And I think that different people would interpret that differently even at Bethel.

00:07:13And I don't think that they have a hard and fast doctrine that they have their people adhere

00:07:22to.

00:07:22Unlike Bethel, or sorry, unlike IHOP.

00:07:24IHOP definitely had this harder doctrine that was malleable and loose and would change

00:07:30every few years to fit whatever prophecies.

00:07:34But regardless, I think the overarching themes of the latter rain movement are clearly still

00:07:46present today.

00:07:47And it's just one of those, like, it's like the cold.

00:07:51It comes back every winter and you get it again and it's slightly different.

00:07:58So it's not the same because it's, it's, um, adapted and whatnot, but it, and it really

00:08:07does.

00:08:07I mean, I think that that's an apt analogy because it, it's, um, is seasonal and in a way like

00:08:14all of these movements, um, hinge themselves on revival and they need new outpourings of the

00:08:24Holy Spirit to sort of revitalize their communities and, um, re-indoctrinate, um, young people because

00:08:33there's new waves of young people.

00:08:35And you'll see this, we've talked about this many times before, but there's this sort of

00:08:39cycle of young 18 to 25 year olds, or even younger, honestly, um, 15 to 25 year olds will

00:08:47come to the places like Bethel and IHOP, get indoctrinated, give much of their young adult

00:08:54lives, find someone to get married to, like much of their early lives will be defined by

00:09:01their time at Bethel or IHOP or YWAM or some of these other similar, um, new apostolic reformation

00:09:09churches, um, Morningstar, the like, uh, they will give so much emotional, spiritual, um,

00:09:20mental energy to these organizations, get burnt out, there will be a lull and then there's

00:09:27a whole new revival with new faces that suck in, you know, the next, not even a full generation

00:09:34down, just a half step down.

00:09:36Um, and I've, I've seen it happen and it seems certainly, so I think we talked about it last

00:09:43time, maybe we didn't, but IHOP right now is absolutely gearing up for their new cycle.

00:09:50Um, so they've tried to weather the storm with everything that's going on with Mike Bickle.

00:09:56They've, um, tried to distance themselves from Mike Bickle.

00:10:00I believe that we had this, that, uh, one of our previous podcasts talked about this, but

00:10:05everything on their webpage has been scrubbed, um, to make it look like, uh, Mike Bickle never

00:10:13happened, but yet all of the rhetoric is still there.

00:10:16All of Mike Bickle's terminology, uh, his handprint is still there.

00:10:20It's all his, his, uh, phrases and, and weird.

00:10:25Like he had a very specific way of talking and it is clearly just plastered all over the

00:10:31page, um, straight up lies about the history of how IHOP was started.

00:10:36And then, uh, Joseph Taylor and some of the other leaders who are trying to, um, rekindle

00:10:43IHOP right now are reopening, um, reopening IHOP university, clearly trying to bring in

00:10:52a lot of 16, 17, 18, 19 year olds who have probably grown up in a very religious, um,

00:11:01conservative, uh, community, um, probably in a fringe cares charismatic community who just

00:11:10have, have been told not to go online and not listen to, you know, someone like John

00:11:16Collins or Mike Winger or these other people who have been talking about all of this stuff,

00:11:21because obviously John Collins is, uh, you know, being used by the demonic agenda to tear

00:11:30down the, the millennial kingdom or whatever it is.

00:11:34Anyway, all that to say is there is, we're seeing it.

00:11:38We're like on the precipice of a new sort of attempt at a revival movement that is going

00:11:43on with, with IHOP right now, whether it's successful in the ways that it has been in

00:11:48the past or not, you know, only time will tell.

00:11:51I certainly hope not, but we've seen this cycle happen.

00:11:57Um, especially with even the, the, I know that there's a bunch of people probably listening

00:12:04to this and who are like, wow, all of this exposure has been happening recently.

00:12:09That's not new for this community.

00:12:12Like happened with Paul Kane happened with Bob Jones.

00:12:16It happened with, um, all of these different, uh, leaders who fell.

00:12:21Well, I do feel like this is, there has been a greater effort and there's been some more

00:12:29sort of, um, exposure, more salient exposure.

00:12:34Um, and it's certainly more accessible.

00:12:37I'll say it maybe like that.

00:12:38Um, cause I don't want to diminish the, the, the work of people in the past who have done

00:12:43a lot of good work to expose some of these charlatans.

00:12:47But I believe now because of technology and because of, um, some of the effort that's

00:12:52been given, like, I, I, I think that there's, uh, greater access to this exposure where people

00:12:59can look up Mike Bickle and, um, Bill Johnson and, and, um, Chris Fallatin and see a whole

00:13:08laundry list of things of being like, oh man, this, they, here are the very concrete issues

00:13:14with Bethel or with IHOP.

00:13:16Um, so I'm hoping that we will, I'm hoping we're, we're seeing the ends of the latter

00:13:25rain movement.

00:13:26Hopefully the rains are stopping and we're going to get a dry spell for, for a while here.

00:13:33But, um, I mean, yeah, it, it, the movement is not dead.

00:13:37You know, I look at it more like we're going to see a lull in the time between it does

00:13:43it

00:13:43again.

00:13:44So you, you mentioned so many things there.

00:13:46One of the things that I'll mention is this.

00:13:48When I was studying Davis and at that time I had no idea Seven Mountains Band-Aid, but

00:13:55I was studying Davis and all of the things that he stood for and I was seeing so many

00:13:59similarities in the church world today and I was thinking this just doesn't, how does

00:14:04this one guy who nobody's ever heard of, who was the head of the clan, how does he fit

00:14:10into this picture because there's so many similarities.

00:14:12And then once I started to understand Seven Mountains Mandate, I found this, I think I've

00:14:18shared with you, I found this group called the Supreme Kingdom.

00:14:21After the clan disbanded, Davis and a few others, they were part of this movement that

00:14:26was starting, it was short-lived, but it's called the Supreme Kingdom.

00:14:29They were rising up specifically in opposition to the things that they viewed with, viewed as,

00:14:36as problematic with the education system.

00:14:39So it was really a kingdom who was going to drive out those who were invading our education

00:14:45system.

00:14:46But that exploded into an array of other things.

00:14:48The clan also had, I don't know if you know this, the clan produced movies and they would

00:14:53publish those movies in churches.

00:14:55So they were also attacking the entertainment industry.

00:14:58They were deeply embedded in politics.

00:15:00If you go through it, the actual Seven Mountains Mandate, every aspect of it was in the Supreme

00:15:05Kingdom, which would have been what Branham was trained with, now combine that with the

00:15:12research that I've done with Steve Montgomery on the converging apostasy, all of the threads

00:15:17of spiritualism, mysticism, all of these things that came into latter rain.

00:15:21Well, Davis claimed that he was a converted spiritualist, and he claimed that he knew how

00:15:28spiritualism worked.

00:15:29He saw the difference in Christianity.

00:15:31And he basically, if you understand what he's saying with this, he's saying that I know

00:15:36what parts of it are real and used for godly good, and what parts are evil and come from

00:15:41Satan, and started integrating the mystery-type religion into what Branham would have been

00:15:46trained in.

00:15:48Branham took it forward and said, I know how to move bracelets with my mind.

00:15:52I know metaphysics.

00:15:53I have an angel walking on the platform with me.

00:15:56I can take every spirit in this building under my control.

00:16:00What he's doing essentially, and that's just five of a hundred examples, he's basically taking

00:16:06elements of spiritualism and putting them into the movement.

00:16:10It went into the latter rain movement.

00:16:12Now, here's where it gets odd.

00:16:14If you study just the doctrines of latter rain compared to IHOP-KC, no, they're different.

00:16:20Study just the doctrines of Branhamism compared to latter rain, to today's NAR, no.

00:16:26They're different.

00:16:27But if you understand the agendas behind them, the agendas pushing the whole movement forward,

00:16:32those agendas haven't really changed.

00:16:34They have just taken parts of theology off, added new parts in, changed theology to make

00:16:40it more appealing to the masses.

00:16:42Basically, they've taken this ugly vehicle, and they put new paint jobs on it each time

00:16:47it needed a new paint job.

00:16:50It's Mad Lib prophecies.

00:16:52You remember the game Mad Lib where you would say, okay, give me a noun, give me a verb,

00:16:58give me a whatever, and then you read off and you fill them into some story.

00:17:06And without knowing what the nouns or verbs, how they're connected, you get this usually

00:17:14weird, bizarre, funny story.

00:17:16I mean, that's these prophecies.

00:17:18It's like, okay, well, take this noun out, take this specific, we have this template of

00:17:27a prophecy, and we have a template of the intention and the uses of the prophecy that is going

00:17:39to remain the same, but change it out for instead of, I mean, it's funny because throughout

00:17:45Pentecostalism, you know, different people were pretending to be the spirit of Elisha

00:17:55reincarnated.

00:17:55I mean, you had Branham and at least, not Dowie.

00:18:02There's so many, man.

00:18:04So Frank Sanford, he claimed he was Elijah, Dowie claimed he was.

00:18:09Parham went to both of those compounds, and then he started claiming that he's the new

00:18:13Elijah, trying to take over Zion.

00:18:15See, it just went on and on.

00:18:16I found this one article where it said, the newspaper reporter said, when will we stop this

00:18:21nonsense?

00:18:22And I'm paraphrasing.

00:18:23When will we stop this nonsense?

00:18:25We have these people claiming to be David or Moses or Elijah, and people just flock to

00:18:30them as though they are.

00:18:31When are they going to wake up and say that, wait a minute, this is not right?

00:18:35I remember early, probably early teens, we would, I was talking with various, I can't

00:18:45remember exactly who it was, but I was in these communities that one thing, one thing was this

00:18:52big conference that IHOP would put on that was, I mean, thousands and thousands of people

00:18:59would come to Bartle Hall in Kansas City, which is a huge sort of conference center.

00:19:09I literally think that there probably were like 100,000 people at one point at its height

00:19:13is maybe, maybe, maybe more like 60,000.

00:19:18But in that range of tens of thousands of people would come to these giant conferences.

00:19:23And I, you know, these, these huge conferences still happen.

00:19:27It's just not necessarily one thing anymore.

00:19:29But during those times, you know, I remember getting really into the frenzy of the prophetic

00:19:36end times movement.

00:19:38And there was this whole, because the left behind series had come out too.

00:19:46And so me and other young adults in this community had really weird end times eschatologies that

00:19:54were built by hodgepodge of things we had seen on the left behind series, the Kirk Cameron

00:20:05left behind series movies, but also stuff that we had been taught at IHOP.

00:20:12And, and, you know, we believed that there wasn't going to be a rapture before the tribulation.

00:20:18So there's all of these different beliefs, but I remember there is this, this narrative

00:20:24about two prophets who will come back and they will, will be prophets who are there sort

00:20:33of like John the Baptist was heralding in the tribulation as John the Baptist heralded

00:20:43in Jesus.

00:20:44Um, and in, I remember in the left behind series, they, um, there's two prophets and they're

00:20:53in front of the wailing wall in Jerusalem and, uh, they start, I don't have any recollection

00:20:59of why this was, but they start breathing fire, um, when they're attacked by the military.

00:21:06And, um, so there, this was the idea is that there was going to be prophets who could breathe

00:21:10fire and that there's going to be specifically these two prophets, one who was this sort of

00:21:16spirit of Elijah who is reincarnated.

00:21:18And I remember us talking about who's it going to be because we're so, we were so conditioned

00:21:25to believe that we were at the precipice of it.

00:21:28Obviously it was going to be coming from IHOP or at least Kansas city was that's where these

00:21:37prophets were going to, and it's going to happen in the next, you know, five, 10, 15 years.

00:21:43So it has to be either one of us.

00:21:45And so we were sort of even being conditioned to be like, it could be me.

00:21:52I could see in an alternate, in a very bleak alternate reality, I am out there right now

00:21:58pretending to be the prophet Elisha because that was what I was like groomed and conditioned

00:22:05for, but I also remember us being like, is it going to be Mike Bickle?

00:22:08And then we were like, is it going to be Bob Jones?

00:22:10No, he's too old.

00:22:11So we didn't think that it was going to be Bob Jones because Bob Jones was too old, but,

00:22:15um, and he passed away shortly after.

00:22:18So, you know, we got that one, right.

00:22:21But, um, I think so anyway, all of that to say that going back to like the Mad Libs thing,

00:22:28it's just, you're seeing prophecies about the same prophecy about the prophet Elijah,

00:22:34just the person who it is, is, is replaced every 10 years.

00:22:39There's a different person who's placed in there and, um, prophecies about the end times,

00:22:46the date, it just changes every 10 years and, um, prophecies about, um, spiritual giftings

00:22:54and healing and, um, speaking in tongues and all of this sort of thing.

00:22:58I think that that has evolved to like the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, what it looks

00:23:05like you, you know, you have the Toronto revival where you get these more sozo, um, Holy Spirit,

00:23:16spectacular, fun, um, whimsical.

00:23:20I mean, they are not, I think that I've spoken extensively with you on this, but I want to be

00:23:24very clear.

00:23:25They are not fun or whimsical or low stakes.

00:23:29Like it is very intense, real stuff that, that definitely, um, has caused a lot of scarring

00:23:35on, on a lot of people.

00:23:37Um, but the sort of iteration of that movement changed.

00:23:42Um, and I mean, we're going to, when you see it again too, there's, there's going to

00:23:49be a new generation and there's going to be a new Mad Libs script, uh, for what it, what

00:23:55it looks like.

00:23:56You know, whenever I try to determine, did Ladder Rain continue or did it end?

00:24:01And the problem that you always run into is this brick wall of history.

00:24:05That's not quite written in transparency.

00:24:08I'll just say it like that.

00:24:10In fact, some of it's written completely opposite of what the actual history was.

00:24:14But if you look at the movement in large, the movement spread throughout all of the Pentecostal

00:24:21organizations and you had some larger organizations like the assemblies of God, they put their hands

00:24:27up and said, no, we don't want this 1948, right?

00:24:30Whenever this exploded into the big thing, they put their hands up and said, no, this

00:24:34is wrong.

00:24:34We're not going to do it.

00:24:36And if you only look at that one piece of history, you think, okay, what may have stopped

00:24:40in the assemblies of God, but what the history doesn't accurately portray is that there are

00:24:46large portions of the assemblies of God that continued with it.

00:24:49The assemblies themselves split over it.

00:24:51And so you'd add half of the group still went on with Ladder Rain.

00:24:54They became the independent assemblies of God.

00:24:57Then you had like in the state of Indiana, Indiana became a rogue state for the assemblies.

00:25:02And you had people on the house floor in the assemblies of God defending Ladder Rain and

00:25:09Branhamism, even though they were still in the assemblies, because they were still pushing

00:25:13the same doctrines.

00:25:14So the waters get really muddied.

00:25:17But if you look at the core agenda doctrines, I don't know how to phrase that.

00:25:23But it's like there was political, religious, all kinds of different agendas that came in

00:25:28in the form of doctrines, some of which you're familiar with, the manifested sons of God.

00:25:34So that came forward.

00:25:35It went through Ladder Rain.

00:25:37It became – it was a fundamental part of Ladder Rain.

00:25:39Went forward into New Apostolic Reformation.

00:25:42So this really didn't die out.

00:25:44So, in other words, you have all of these streams of agenda doctrines that made it into charismatic

00:25:51movement, into some of it, even to the Jesus movement, which gets really weird.

00:25:56I've not yet deciphered how much of it and to what extent.

00:26:01But you had some rogue agents in the Jesus movement, some of which were Branhamites.

00:26:05Then you had others, mainstream, who kind of separated from it.

00:26:09But yet, at the same time, some of the doctrines came through.

00:26:13Many were filtered.

00:26:14But what's weird about IHOPKC is they all just came to merge back in.

00:26:18How did that happen?

00:26:19Why did they merge back in?

00:26:21I can say that Paul Cain was probably behind a lot of it, but not all of it.

00:26:26So it makes me to – I lived in Kansas for a while.

00:26:29It makes me to believe that there were enough Branhamite-influenced groups, maybe not full-on

00:26:37Branhamites, but enough that were influenced, that they said, we're still standing behind

00:26:41some of these doctrines.

00:26:43Now let's support it.

00:26:44Let's build it.

00:26:45Let's grow it.

00:26:46And IHOPKC just came to be.

00:26:48Well, and so with Mike Bickle, what I've heard and the context that I have for the community

00:26:56that he grew up in, and I'm talking childhood grew up in, because he very much was – when

00:27:02he was like 18, 19, he already was in creating his own sort of – like he was a youth

00:27:10pastor

00:27:11very young and started – he was very quick to be his own sort of guide and whatnot.

00:27:18But the community that he was raised in, he is – from what I understand and what I've

00:27:24heard is that his stepfather was a Freemason and was a part of one of those – and was

00:27:32the – I think it's called the Stag, Grand Stag or something.

00:27:36They have different titles for – and his father had a title within one of these sects

00:27:47and very tightly tied to some of the KKK and some of the Klan.

00:27:56And if you see sort of the evolution of that, it's – you get the same systems and the same

00:28:05methodologies and the same mentalities that are being passed down, and it's not super

00:28:10different people.

00:28:11Even – you don't have to trace a line very hard to see how these individuals were connected

00:28:23to Branham or whoever you want, whether Roy E. Davis or different individuals.

00:28:28I mean, obviously and apparently, so not even behind the scenes, like there's so much more

00:28:35connections that we're not aware of.

00:28:37But, like, I think that for me and someone who grew up in that community, it's easy for

00:28:43me to trace my own lineage.

00:28:45And if I had started a church, it would be very easy to look and say, hey, this is the

00:28:52community that I was raised in, and this is the rhetoric that I was sort of taught to believe.

00:28:57And you could – I could easily have seen how I would have carried on the latter rain movement

00:29:07without even totally recognizing what I was doing, just because of the direct lineage and direct

00:29:17doctrinal dissent that I was sort of plugged into.

00:29:24And these – we think of – I don't know, we look at William Branham and see black and

00:29:30white pictures, and I think that we disconnect it in our heads.

00:29:33Maybe not you, but people who are historians probably don't do this as much.

00:29:39But I think for me and others who see – it's easy to feel like these things are separated,

00:29:47and that what's going on today is very distinct and different than what went on 50 years ago,

00:29:53100 years ago even.

00:29:55But again, it's just direct lineage, and you can see, even with literal sons of the movement

00:30:03and spiritual sons of the movement, I mean, you have a lot of trees and apples not falling

00:30:09far from each other.

00:30:10It's just very direct how it goes down, and these are the individuals who are leading.

00:30:18It's not a coincidence that Mike Bickle, one of the most prominent voices of the sort of

00:30:26contemporary end times prayer movement, is in direct sort of spiritual lineage to William

00:30:35Branham, that it was Paul Kane, and then Mike Bickle, and Bob Jones, and Mike Bickle.

00:30:42It's very direct and clear, and you have other individuals who are coming up now who are

00:30:50prominent that are still very much – I mean, it's a big world, and yet these individuals are

00:30:57one step removed from clan leaders and from the Branham original heartbeat that started the

00:31:12entire Lateran movement.

00:31:15So yeah, it's really not difficult to see how this continues.

00:31:19Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of

00:31:24modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, Charismatic, and other fringe

00:31:29movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:31:32You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.

00:31:40On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles

00:31:45Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital

00:31:52versions of each book.

00:31:54You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

00:32:00movements.

00:32:00If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the

00:32:05Contribute button at the top.

00:32:07And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening

00:32:12to or watching.

00:32:13On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:32:18When I have the tug of war in my head, did it end or did it not end, I always

00:32:24go back

00:32:24to the core doctrines.

00:32:25And the core doctrines usually push me over the edge that, no, this really hasn't ended.

00:32:31But so think through this with me.

00:32:34One of the things that even if you're not in a group that you would consider to be NAR,

00:32:40if you're talking to a group that says, we believe the five-fold ministry, usually what

00:32:46that means and suggests is the latter rain version of the five-fold ministry.

00:32:51There is a passage in Ephesians that talks about the apostles, prophets, teachers, etc.

00:32:56But that's usually a flat – there is no hierarchy to it.

00:32:59It's flat.

00:33:00If you want to be a teacher, you can teach, and that's your part of the work of God.

00:33:03If you want to be a minister, you're a minister, you're a helper, you're a shepherd,

00:33:06that's your work.

00:33:07And it's not valued anymore from one office to another.

00:33:12There is no hierarchy.

00:33:13But in the latter rain, it came with a hierarchy.

00:33:16And usually the apostle guy, that's who you really want to be because that's the one that

00:33:20makes the money.

00:33:21Underneath that is the prophet, and there's this tier.

00:33:24It's really a pyramid scheme.

00:33:26When somebody in one of these movements says, we believe the five-fold ministry, and if you

00:33:31question it, you're questioning Christianity itself.

00:33:35That tells me that you're part of something that came from latter rain, and it's continuing.

00:33:40Now, if you were to say, John, I disagree with you.

00:33:42I think it should be an authoritarian structure, but that doesn't really make you Christian or

00:33:47not, I'd be like, well, that's a difference of opinion.

00:33:51But usually, you watch the comment feeds.

00:33:53Usually, they attack you.

00:33:54If you don't believe this, you don't believe the Bible.

00:33:57All of that comes from latter rain.

00:33:59I think the fervency of belief in these particular situations, too, reaffirms sort of the idea that

00:34:09it's not just like an offshoot of Pentecostalism or Pentecostalism is an offshoot of whatever

00:34:22Protestant, whatever lines you want to draw.

00:34:27It really, to me, feels distinctly like its own new religion.

00:34:34And because of the fervency and the intensity of beliefs behind these doctrines, you see

00:34:44people who do not think those who deny these certain beliefs are even a part of Christianity.

00:34:57And this is something that I saw growing up.

00:35:01This wasn't universal within the community.

00:35:04But I remember thinking, you know, people who believed in even something that's as niche

00:35:11and specific as post-trib, pre-trib distinction.

00:35:17Is there going to be a rapture?

00:35:25That idea in of itself could cause people to be like, you're not even a Christian.

00:35:31If you believe in pre-trib rapture, then you're not even a Christian because you aren't actually

00:35:39believing what is the important things of the gospel.

00:35:44I mean, not even larger, if you don't believe this or that, like it was, it was, it's one

00:35:50thing to be like, I, I don't know if Mormons are also Christian, like that, but to look

00:35:56at Christianity and be like, I don't know if this other church, this charismatic church

00:36:02down the road isn't even Christian because they don't even believe this like very specific

00:36:07niche thing.

00:36:08And you will see that a lot.

00:36:10You won't see it preached from the pulpit a ton, but you will, if you press people within

00:36:15those communities, you'll ask them, hey, does, what are the doctrines that even are, what

00:36:24are the essential doctrines that one needs to believe to be a true Christian?

00:36:29And within these communities, you're going to get a lot of very specific doctrines that

00:36:36are, um, not what you would totally expect.

00:36:39And so therefore I think that it has to continue.

00:36:43It is almost been structured so that the latter rain movement is for, I mean, it's either the

00:36:52entire religion itself dissolves, uh, and people don't follow it at all.

00:36:57Like you, you can't get this sort of reintegration into the larger body of Christ because they

00:37:04have set themselves apart.

00:37:06And this is especially with, um, IHOP and the rhetoric that was, um, inundated into the

00:37:15culture.

00:37:15It is all of this.

00:37:17We set ourselves apart.

00:37:19Well, who do you set yourselves apart from?

00:37:21Not from just the world, but from the body of Christ in general.

00:37:25There was the, uh, allegory of the, um, virgins and the, the, um, brides who all have their

00:37:34lamps and they have to keep oil in their lamp.

00:37:36And that whole idea that wasn't separating from the rest of the world that was separating

00:37:42from other Christians.

00:37:42What is going to make us distinctly different than other Christians is that we are going to

00:37:47have this end times, um, intimacy with God that is, um, very real and visceral and, um, romantic

00:37:58even and, um, straight up quasi-sexual in nature.

00:38:05And this, um, this intimacy with God was going to be fueled by, um, prayer and night and day

00:38:14intercession that only, because only IHOP does that.

00:38:19Everybody else goes home, but we do prayer 24-7 and never go home collectively.

00:38:25There is always one of us, you know, keeping the fire on the altar burning.

00:38:30And therefore, we are not just a different type of Christian.

00:38:33We are perhaps the only Christians and everyone else is not even going to be saved.

00:38:39And when Jesus returns, he will spit the lukewarm out of his mouth and say, depart from me.

00:38:45You never knew me because only us true Christians, only us true IHOP Christians are the ones who

00:38:53are burning and on fire for God.

00:38:55And you, that is the type, if you, if you convert to Christianity through this, or you grew up

00:39:04into it, or even you are radicalized within this from one version of Christianity into this,

00:39:11um, there's not an easy going back.

00:39:15It's not like someone who grew up with a particular, you know, academic viewpoint of religion that

00:39:23then shifts based off of new literature that says, oh, maybe I was wrong about this.

00:39:29And I was very fervent in my beliefs, but like I have adapted to see that, because there's

00:39:35a method for that.

00:39:36There's always a method for you using reason and using, um, rhetoric that is, or, or, or

00:39:43the evolution of thought, um, can produce the evolution of belief in, in people.

00:39:49But when your belief is centered around the words of the prophet and the spirit of a particular

00:39:59movement, um, your entire faith is hinged upon, um, the continuance of those, um, belief systems.

00:40:11So therefore, I really do think you have a lot of people who are having crisis of faith

00:40:17in these communities, because it's not a matter of, hmm, I was a Christian and then I believed

00:40:27all of this extra stuff.

00:40:28And now I'm seeing these, uh, people like Sean Bowles and Bob Hartley and others who have

00:40:37done horrible things and this is causing me to like question the specific aspects of some of my

00:40:45belief.

00:40:46Like really, I have seen way more people just stop being Christian entirely, um, or push it

00:40:53out of their mind.

00:40:54Like it, there isn't a whole lot of, Ooh, let me adapt this.

00:40:58Let me fix it.

00:40:59And let me change the sort of expression of Christianity that I believe in it's, let me

00:41:06leave Christianity entirely because it is a different faith.

00:41:10It isn't, it isn't a ornament on Christianity where it's like, okay, well, we all believe

00:41:19the same central doctrines.

00:41:21You just believe a few different things.

00:41:23No, it's not situated that way.

00:41:26It's not ever situated that way.

00:41:28It's always about being set apart.

00:41:31So the central beliefs of the new apostolic reformation community members is distinctly

00:41:38differently.

00:41:38If you remove those central beliefs, all of your Christianity falls apart.

00:41:43Now, I'm not saying that people can't deconstruct and, and, and find different expressions of

00:41:51Christianity that they then reposition themselves around.

00:41:54But largely I have not seen that be what happens.

00:41:58I've seen people largely leave, leave the faith entirely.

00:42:03I mean, I'm myself included in my own sort of expression of, like I had, I had to leave,

00:42:09I had to be like all of my central belief systems were built on these particular premises.

00:42:17And when those premises broke, I didn't have the spiritual scaffolding to be like, okay,

00:42:23I'm still going to remain a Christian because it just didn't, it didn't, that wasn't the

00:42:31belief that I had.

00:42:31And so, you know, going back to Christianity would be a process of almost similar, it would

00:42:40be a, it wouldn't be a reconversion experience.

00:42:42It'd be a conversion experience just as if I was to become a Buddhist or, you know, Muslim

00:42:48or Hindu or something like that.

00:42:49It is almost an entirely new process.

00:42:53Not that I, I obviously still have a foundation of Christianity and my knowledge and understanding

00:43:03like that.

00:43:04I, it's not quite a one-to-one insofar as like, obviously there was a lot of the Bible

00:43:10that I was reading and I understand a lot of the stories of Christianity and whatnot.

00:43:16Um, but I, I think that it, it truly is an, uh, an entirely the, the continuation of people's

00:43:26faith are, is so caught up with, um, the fervent belief of these central NAR doctrines.

00:43:36And if those doctrines, um, dissolve, then so do people's faith.

00:43:40And that's the way that it's designed to be.

00:43:43There are so many things that you mentioned that I want to do another podcast about.

00:43:48Just think through this.

00:43:51When you read any book on latter rain, you usually say that by and large,

00:43:56the move, the charismatic movement, abandoned latter rain, and they always go back to what

00:44:01I mentioned.

00:44:02They, the assemblies of God just rejected it and soon others started rejecting it.

00:44:07And so what they've usually tried to push is the notion that the heretical doctrines

00:44:12that were rejected, that stayed with latter rain and we've moved beyond that.

00:44:16But let's look at some of the core doctrines.

00:44:19One of the core doctrines for the latter rain movement is that, and this was specifically

00:44:24denounced by the assemblies of God, that they pushed the idea that experience and revelation

00:44:32took precedence over theology.

00:44:34That was a big reason why the assemblies of God said, no, we don't want any part of this.

00:44:37But look what's happened today.

00:44:39It's almost like they value the experience and the new revelations over any type of theology

00:44:46to the extent they'll ridicule you if you have studied theology.

00:44:50In fact, I have had people on my show who had been theologians and they just get reamed

00:44:56for having been a theologian.

00:44:58You're, you're taking that spirit of the devil, but that's part of the movement.

00:45:01The movement has continued that.

00:45:03And there was this core theme, and this really came back from Davis and the education thing.

00:45:10There was this core theme that the churches had been invaded.

00:45:15They were becoming apostates.

00:45:17And we instead have the truth.

00:45:19If you're in a Christian church and you're just an average Christian church, you're one

00:45:23of the bad guys.

00:45:24We're one of the good guys.

00:45:25That was how it was set up, right?

00:45:27There was a period of time whenever it did shift a little bit, more people were welcoming,

00:45:32but then it kind of closed up even further.

00:45:35Now, I mean, look at it today.

00:45:37If you're in IHOP, was it that way?

00:45:40Were they us versus them with regards to other Christians?

00:45:43Oh, 100%.

00:45:44Yeah.

00:45:45I remember bringing that sort of spirit of arrogance and spiritual elitism to every sort

00:45:59of conversation.

00:46:01Because in my upbringing, I never interacted with people who were not Christian, right?

00:46:07There aren't, and you need to set yourself apart.

00:46:12I mean, to be, to have radical sort of power and to be a community that is a successful

00:46:23cult to radicalize your church members.

00:46:27You need them to have villains in their lives that they see on a day.

00:46:35It can't just be these sort of talking about what's going on in different places in the

00:46:40world.

00:46:41You need people to actually feel like there is a very tangible battle that is going on.

00:46:51And if you make it Christians versus non-Christians, well, that doesn't really work.

00:46:56I mean, maybe in a Los Angeles community where it's a multicultural community where there are

00:47:02people of different faiths and, and different, uh, denomination or, um, yeah, different, entirely

00:47:09different faiths, um, and not just different denominational, um, communities.

00:47:14But if you grew up in Kansas city, um, sure, there are, there are individuals who are of

00:47:22different faiths, but largely like I grew up in a suburb of Kansas city and every single

00:47:27person that I knew was Christian, um, or was not a very practicing Christian, but would

00:47:35go to Christian, you know, go to church on Sundays, or maybe you would occasionally have

00:47:40the, the atheist or, or non-Christian, but also that they grew up at least in the Christian

00:47:47community.

00:47:48There was not anybody who, again, not saying that this was true of Kansas city at whole,

00:47:53but just the community that I sort of, the insular community that I sort of was interacting

00:47:58with at my private, you know, Christian schools, they're, they're all obviously Christian.

00:48:04And so for Mike Bickle and for IHOP to have us be fervent believers, we have to be set apart

00:48:13from the people who are around us.

00:48:16And so therefore it's gotta be versus other Christians.

00:48:20It's gotta be, this is what we're different from.

00:48:23Um, and, uh, yeah, that was very much the thing.

00:48:27I remember too, this is a slight, um, well, I didn't, not even really a change of subject,

00:48:34but you remember Vance Bolter.

00:48:36Um, he was the shooter in the, the, the Minnesota, Minnesota shooter who went crazy and, and, um,

00:48:44went after, um, leaders in, in, um, Minnesota, elected officials in Minnesota and very tragically,

00:48:52um, uh, killed, um, several individuals in, in, in Minnesota.

00:48:58Uh, his, we, we did, we both kind of went into having conversations about him and his upbringing

00:49:07and how he was sort of tied to some of the NAR and weirdly tied to that same community

00:49:14in Zimbabwe that my parents were, um, a part of.

00:49:17Um, but I remember hearing his, I, I went and listened to several of his sermons that

00:49:25were online.

00:49:25And the rhetoric that he was giving was this, um, he was talking very explicitly about the

00:49:34division in the church.

00:49:36And he was talking about how, um, Satan had, um, got his, his hands on sections of the American

00:49:46church and, um, how the American church needs to be brought back to God.

00:49:51And it wasn't, uh, the United States as a whole needs to find, uh, redemption, which

00:49:58that's a different type of, I'm not, I'm not saying that it was worse or better because

00:50:03of this.

00:50:03I'm just saying that that, that is the sort of nature of his, um, uh, doctrines that

00:50:11he was professing is this sort of like the church itself that, that, that, you know, Satan

00:50:16is inside the house and is coming after even the elected or the, the elect, the, those who

00:50:23believe and profess, um, the name of Jesus.

00:50:26And it was this very intense sort of, we have to fight against the spirit of Satan that

00:50:33is dividing the church.

00:50:34Um, but not in a unifying, let us be loving and kind and patient and understanding and

00:50:42let us accept differences of opinions that it wasn't that sort of unifying of like, we

00:50:48accept the fact that other people view other denominations view things differently.

00:50:52It was a totalizing totalitarian view of unity where it was like, we need to root out the

00:50:59bad beliefs within the church.

00:51:01There are these Satan's got this foothold within the church that is, um, causing division.

00:51:08And the only way to do it is to root out these, these bad beliefs and these bad agents.

00:51:15Um, and so I think, you know, you see iterations of this, um, in several different, uh, arms of

00:51:25the new apostolic reformation movement.

00:51:27You know, one of the other things that you mentioned was the militaristic aspect of it.

00:51:33It's, it's not just us versus them.

00:51:35They will, they will attack you if you question the doctrines.

00:51:39Well, if you go back in time and you look at what Davis was building, Davis being Branham's

00:51:45mentor, he was building the next iteration of the wave of the clan.

00:51:49But more than that, he was building political alliances that you were either with that set

00:51:53of politics or you were the enemy.

00:51:55And it became so divisive that when religion mixed in with this, now, if you don't view this

00:52:02politics in the same way, you're part of Satan's crowd.

00:52:05You're part of the, the enemy that legacy has continued.

00:52:09It did continue through latter rain strongly.

00:52:12Um, I've not published this yet.

00:52:14I'm still kind of working through it, but I have recordings of one of the leaders of the, um, working

00:52:20closely with the Sharon orphanage.

00:52:22I should say it like that.

00:52:23And they were part, they believed the Christian identity to see doctrine and they were talking

00:52:28about the end of day's race war, which they believed to be coming.

00:52:32Branham hints at it.

00:52:33He doesn't go real deep with it.

00:52:35But the idea was that we are preparing for an end of day's battle.

00:52:40The end of day's battle is coming and you're either with us or you're against us.

00:52:44So if you're a Christian who's cold, stale, apostate, who isn't fighting mad, you're part

00:52:50of the enemy.

00:52:51And that mentality, I think over time what happened is I think it did begin as a political slash

00:52:58racist agenda.

00:52:59But over time, the racist part got forgotten.

00:53:03The same mentality that we're in, we're in a war, we're in a battle.

00:53:07I think that continued through time and as it changed and morphed over history, it ended

00:53:14up to what we see today.

00:53:16But it's weird to me that the attack still remained on other Christians.

00:53:21If you're in a Christian denomination and you don't believe exactly like I do, well,

00:53:25you're part of the enemy.

00:53:26You're part of the end of day's battle that I'm going to be fighting.

00:53:29That is the fact that that continued tells me that something is wrong here.

00:53:33Yeah.

00:53:34And I would say, too, I totally agree with what you're saying.

00:53:38I would say that the racism part of it wasn't necessarily forgotten.

00:53:43It just didn't become the, it changed from being the pulpit talking point.

00:53:52And it has morphed because we still see a lot of that, the racism latent within all of these

00:54:00different talking points, even, even the, the, um, sort of movement against, um, um, illegal

00:54:09immigrants and the way that that is clearly based in some, um, racist, um, um, beliefs,

00:54:19um, and, uh, rhetoric.

00:54:21Um, and particularly I'm talking about how, I mean, that's, this is probably a whole different,

00:54:28um, video and subject, but about how, uh, the NAR movement is like attached to, um, some of

00:54:36the anti, uh, uh, immigration movement that's going on in the United States and is fueling

00:54:43some, some, some of the, the violence against, um, people of color who are, um, either migrating

00:54:51or even just living in the United States and have been living in the United States for

00:54:56several, um, generations.

00:54:59Um, anyway, that, that's probably a larger conversation, but, um, I think to, to your

00:55:04point, yeah, too, that it's just that it is militaristic.

00:55:08It is very, um, I mean, talking about using, uh, terms like invasion, um, using, um, terms

00:55:17like, um, well, both invasion and both, we are being invaded, um, whether that's by legal

00:55:27immigrants, whether that's by, um, uh, just the churches, the churches are being invaded

00:55:32by, uh, woke rhetoric or different, um, I, I'm definitely hinging on some of the political

00:55:39stuff, but some of this is non-political too, um, and just more universal, um, but invaded

00:55:49by demonic forces, invaded by, um, the spirit of the enemy, um, and yet using the

00:55:57invasion rhetoric to, to be provide the solution.

00:56:01Because I, going back to sort of the bolter's thing, there is this idea that we are going

00:56:08to, the good people are going to unify the United States and unify the body of Christ

00:56:14and, and bring about peace and stability to the body of Christ.

00:56:19But doing so is going to be done by eliminating all the bad rhetoric.

00:56:24So again, it's this totalitarian, um, uh, perspective that seeks to weed out differences

00:56:33of belief and opinion and eliminate that and thus bringing about unity.

00:56:38If we eliminate every, uh, perspective that is different than ours, then ha ha.

00:56:44So now we have a perfectly unified church and everything is peaceful.

00:56:49So it isn't, it, it masquerades as a peaceful rhetoric, um, very, very, uh, uh, thinly, um,

00:57:02because all of the other rhetoric is clearly militaristic and, uh, but it's like unto, I

00:57:08mean, it's similar to actually the propaganda that is used throughout time to, um, uh, condone

00:57:15waging war, um, or waging just any type of violence against people groups or communities

00:57:21or, uh, other nations is this idea is that through war and destruction, we shall bring

00:57:28about peace and tranquility.

00:57:29And, um, um, it's, um, yeah, clearly, clearly just, uh, violence masquerading as peace.

00:57:39I don't know if you've ever seen the show Boston Legal.

00:57:42It's one of my favorite shows.

00:57:43William Shatner is hardcore, diehard Republican, James Vader, Democrat.

00:57:49And these two guys are best friends and they sit on the top of the top of the building and

00:57:54they solve all the world's problems together as, as friends with completely different viewpoints.

00:57:59It's funny because I'm a registered Republican.

00:58:01You've never mentioned what you are, but I, I can assume that we're, we're like Denny

00:58:06Crane and James Spader, right?

00:58:07We're, we're that type of mentality.

00:58:09I like that show because it shows that two people with opposing viewpoints can come together

00:58:15for a common good, common goal, and they can work together.

00:58:19But by and large, I was listening as you were talking, you were bringing up some political

00:58:24points, just mentioning the subject matter will make people just insanely angry at you.

00:58:31Why is that?

00:58:32It's because of this merger between Christianity and politics, Christianity and all of these

00:58:36other agendas.

00:58:37They become, they become fighting mad.

00:58:39And why is that?

00:58:40It's because Latourine taught them that we're in an end of days battle.

00:58:44You must be mad.

00:58:45You must be angry, angry at the world.

00:58:47And so this is a religion that literally makes people angry at the world.

00:58:52So very glad you talked through this with me.

00:58:54I think there's more that we could probably do, but we'll save it for next time.

00:58:58Thank you for doing this.

00:58:59Yeah, my pleasure.

00:59:01Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the

00:59:04web.

00:59:04You can find us at william-branum.org.

00:59:07For more about the dark side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion

00:59:11from Christian Identity to the NAR.

00:59:14Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:45Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:51Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

00:59:52And let's get out of there?

00:59:54Bye.

01:00:01Bye.

01:00:03Bye.

Experience Over Theology: Why The Latter Rain Never Ended | Jed Hartley | Detangling IHOPKC | 551

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