- 1 day ago
John, Shelby, and Jenny explore the tension between “good” experiences and unhealthy systems inside Youth With A Mission (YWAM). They unpack how experience can outweigh doctrine, how critical thinking is often suppressed, and how theological narratives—such as prophetic calling, prayer walks, and spiritual authority—shape identity and decision-making.
The conversation also examines the influence of the Seven Mountains Mandate, hero worship of leaders, and the psychological impact of believing one is divinely positioned to change nations. Drawing from personal stories and broader research, this discussion highlights systemic patterns that go far beyond isolated incidents.
00:00 Introduction
01:20 Experience Over Doctrine In YWAM
04:31 Good Experiences Versus Healthy Experiences
08:22 Black-And-White Thinking And Loss Of Critical Thought
11:30 Punishing Nuance Inside A Decentralized System
15:09 Calling, Theology, And Why People Stay
19:21 Systemic Patterns And Business-Like Structure
22:23 Insularity, Approved Voices, And Echo Chambers
25:48 Seven Mountains Mandate And YWAM Lore
30:36 Hero Worship, Untouchable Leaders, And Story Power
33:11 Prophetic Acts, Sacred Objects, And End-Times Urgency
35:43 Spiritualizing Ordinary Events And Loss Of Self-Trust
37:50 Financial Manipulation, Blame-Shifting, And Lack Of Accountability
41:07 Name-It-Claim-It Thinking, Burnout, And False Measures Of Fruit
46:02 Grandiosity, Prayer Walks, And Territorial Thinking
50:27 Power, Favor, And Empire In Missions
53:23 Why The Problem Is Systemic, Not Isolated
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
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The conversation also examines the influence of the Seven Mountains Mandate, hero worship of leaders, and the psychological impact of believing one is divinely positioned to change nations. Drawing from personal stories and broader research, this discussion highlights systemic patterns that go far beyond isolated incidents.
00:00 Introduction
01:20 Experience Over Doctrine In YWAM
04:31 Good Experiences Versus Healthy Experiences
08:22 Black-And-White Thinking And Loss Of Critical Thought
11:30 Punishing Nuance Inside A Decentralized System
15:09 Calling, Theology, And Why People Stay
19:21 Systemic Patterns And Business-Like Structure
22:23 Insularity, Approved Voices, And Echo Chambers
25:48 Seven Mountains Mandate And YWAM Lore
30:36 Hero Worship, Untouchable Leaders, And Story Power
33:11 Prophetic Acts, Sacred Objects, And End-Times Urgency
35:43 Spiritualizing Ordinary Events And Loss Of Self-Trust
37:50 Financial Manipulation, Blame-Shifting, And Lack Of Accountability
41:07 Name-It-Claim-It Thinking, Burnout, And False Measures Of Fruit
46:02 Grandiosity, Prayer Walks, And Territorial Thinking
50:27 Power, Favor, And Empire In Missions
53:23 Why The Problem Is Systemic, Not Isolated
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
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LearningTranscript
00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:35I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:42And with me, I have my very special guests, Shelby Hoffer and Jenny McGrath, former members of YWAM.
00:48Shelby, Jenny, it's good to be back.
00:50So many things that we wanted to talk about last time and never really made it there.
00:55And just chatting with you briefly before we started the podcast, I've realized that I don't think that there are
01:02there's a limit to the things that we could talk about in the different paths we could go.
01:06There are so many things to talk through.
01:08And we've had so many people contact me from YWAM.
01:12In fact, I just recorded another one yesterday with a former member.
01:15And there's just so many things and directions we can go.
01:19But you mentioned one thing that I really think is significant and important.
01:24There is this need to value the experience, and the experience outweighs the doctrine.
01:30And that is a huge problem that exists, not only with this group, but there are several other groups that
01:36it exists with.
01:37Because when you do that, you value the experience over the doctrine, suddenly the people who have the more experiences
01:45are more gifted, if you will.
01:47And so you create this hierarchy of who has the most experience, who has the least experience.
01:52And what you end up with is something that isn't quite Christianity, but it bears the name Christian.
01:56So anyway, I wanted to talk through that with you.
01:59And I'm certain there's a hundred other things we can talk through.
02:02Yes, definitely.
02:03That's something that is quite important in my YWAM experience and many others' YWAM experiences.
02:12And I realize when I talk about YWAM experiences, it's not going to be everybody.
02:18So I just want to caveat that, that this is something we're well aware of, that we're not trying to
02:24encompass every single situation in YWAM, every single person.
02:28However, there is a systemic issue.
02:32And these are the things that we want to talk about and that is important to talk about and sort
02:36of push back on when we get the sort of feedback of, well, but it's not all places.
02:41It's not all YWAM locations or sort of it's their immaturity or age or whatever.
02:48So I think it is important that we can talk about that.
02:51As you talk about that, Shelby, it makes me think about how a lot of what I look at is
02:57what I call the pure-to-purpose pipeline and these ideologies of purity culture and other high-control religions and
03:06how they are systems of binaries.
03:09And I think for a lot of us, myself included, it's easy to go, is YWAM good or bad?
03:16Is it right or wrong?
03:19And I think I touched on this a little bit last time that some of my favorite life experiences happened
03:25when I was in YWAM.
03:27And there are still things that brought me so much joy and so much goodness.
03:31And we could and we probably will talk about those in some way at some time.
03:36And what is often less talked about are those experiences of pain and harm that are just as real.
03:45And I think a lot of times it's actually harder for us to hold the both and and the nuances
03:51and complexities of high-control religion.
03:54And the types of felt community that it gives you, even if that community is precarious.
04:02Because once you start asking questions, then you're ostracized or you're labeled a Jezebel or anything that happens.
04:10But while you have it, it actually feels so powerful and good and connective.
04:16And so, I'm curious for you, Shelby, if you feel comfortable speaking to your own wrestling with maybe, if I
04:24can speak for you, some good experiences in the midst of also the harm that you've started talking about here.
04:31Yes, that is such a helpful distinction.
04:34And I think to identify that it can be really challenging to hold what feels like two opposing truths together.
04:45And certainly, it's youth with a mission, right?
04:49So, there are people from all walks of life, all generations.
04:52However, there is a really high emphasis on the youth.
04:57When you talk about even just your frontal cortex isn't fully formed until you're approximately 25.
05:03I joined when I was 24.
05:06I came out of a deeply NAR church.
05:10And, you know, when you are often young, you're looking for purpose.
05:14You're looking for direction.
05:16You are looking even sometimes for someone to tell you what to do.
05:20And so, you can go into a high control religious space and feel like, oh, this is good.
05:28Like someone is telling me what to do with every hour of my day.
05:32They're telling me when I can sleep, when I can eat, where I can go, when I can talk to
05:38my family, who I can date, what I can wear, what I can watch, what I can listen to.
05:43And that can feel like a really good experience.
05:46And I think what's challenging is oftentimes a lot of people will come into a space like YWAM looking for
05:57that without understanding that they're looking for that.
06:00And therefore, they might stay in that for six months to six years or more and leave at some point
06:09and say, I had a really good experience without maybe understanding yet how that experience of control or manipulation or
06:19coercion or threats of spiritual consequences has actually impacted who they are, how they make decisions in their life.
06:27So, I think when people say, oh, well, I've had a really good experience, I almost want to question, was
06:35it a healthy experience and how is that defined?
06:39How are you going to define what is a healthy experience or not?
06:43So, certainly for myself, I recognized early on in my DTS straight away, this wrestling between, I don't think, something's
06:53off here, but also, I'm not sure, I'm 24.
06:57I am sort of a new Christian in a lot of ways.
07:02I'm certainly not a missionary yet, and these guys have been on the mission field or, you know, in missions
07:09for three years or, you know, five years or 10 years or whatever it was.
07:16They had the YWAM DNA, this loaded language that I know John talks about really often is this YWAM DNA
07:24where you don't yet have that.
07:26And so, you sort of want to earn it and do what you can to earn that approval, earn that
07:32space to be heard.
07:33But until then, you are sort of tasked with holding those things.
07:40And as I learned really early on, if I let my questions come out more than once, then there's going
07:49to be ostracized, you know, there's going to be pushback, there's going to be punishment.
07:55So, it's something that is unfortunately really, I think, a common experience.
08:01And I see this with clients I've worked with over the years in YWAM, with friends who are even still
08:08maybe in the organization.
08:10So, I think it's fair to say that this is a really common experience for people because you are sort
08:16of encouraged to turn off your critical thinking.
08:22And so, it's to say, hey, you know, we want to show you the way.
08:27And if you're at all inclined to say, I'd like someone to show me the way, then it's a match.
08:34And the critical thinking for me is really the key.
08:36So, whenever you're in these high demand groups, it is exactly like Jenny said.
08:40There are these binaries.
08:42And it's either black or white.
08:44You can't see the gray.
08:45It's really, really odd.
08:46Many people who escape the high demand groups or high control groups, they'll tell you that I left and I
08:53woke up and suddenly I realized that everybody in there acts like zombies.
08:56That's usually the phrase that is used.
08:59But it isn't really that so much as there are people who are trained black or white.
09:03There is no in between.
09:05And they cannot critically think to see the in between.
09:08So, they seem like, you know, they seem like zombies, unfortunately.
09:12I started thinking of it much differently.
09:15So, my experiences in the cult were actually good.
09:18I had really good experiences.
09:20Contrary to a lot of the people that I interview who had really horrific experiences, I didn't.
09:26But with every stream of good, there was always something that tainted it.
09:32It would be like if I'm painting my house and I'm painting it white.
09:35Well, something is leaking into the paint bucket that's brown.
09:38I don't get white.
09:39It doesn't look right.
09:40It was kind of like that.
09:42There were really, really good streams and then there would be this one bad stream.
09:45So, I started thinking after leaving on these terms.
09:49If I had children in school and I suddenly learned that their teacher was an ex-convict.
09:54But he's teaching them arithmetic.
09:55He's teaching them all of these good things.
09:58And then suddenly I learned, well, he's also teaching them how to, even though he's not telling them to act
10:04upon it,
10:04he's teaching them how to hotwire a car to steal it.
10:08Would I want my children to go to this?
10:10You know what I mean?
10:11He's teaching them good things.
10:12Yes.
10:13They're having good experiences.
10:14Yes.
10:14But I don't want my children to know how to hijack a car and steal a car.
10:19And not that they would do it, but that's kind of the way it is in these high demand groups.
10:23They're teaching you Christianity.
10:25Yes.
10:25They're giving you good experiences.
10:27Yes.
10:27But there's always that something else that's mixed with it.
10:31Otherwise, they would just join mainstream Christianity.
10:34Absolutely.
10:34And what's interesting is I've seen over the years, you know, because I was in it for 18 years.
10:40So, there was a lot of good.
10:42I experienced a lot of good, like Jenny said.
10:45And I actually really appreciated the episode where Jenny first talked about her good experiences.
10:50It felt sort of like I could validate my own good experiences as well and say, yes, like I have
10:57friends all over the world because of this.
11:00You know, I got to travel and learn so much and grow so much.
11:05I had the most fun I've ever had on my like healthcare outreach.
11:09We almost died like a bunch, but we had fun.
11:12Like I felt really useful and I think that that's sort of maybe a sidebar, but I think that's a
11:18really common desire for people who engage in missions work is there's a need to be needed.
11:27There's a need to feel useful, but yeah, sort of understanding that there's not space for gray.
11:36And I have seen locations, YWAM locations, where if they tried to create space for gray, they were eventually sort
11:46of punished, which is really interesting because YWAM is so decentralized.
11:50And if abuse is brought to light, the first response is often, well, we're decentralized.
11:56We can't fire anybody.
11:58We don't have a code of conduct.
12:00We have no authority to do anything.
12:03And then, you know, sort of hands off, hands off, hands off until it gets extremely serious and local authorities
12:10get involved or whatever.
12:11On the other side of the spectrum, if there is a location that is trying to bring in nuance, trying
12:16to encourage critical thinking, and there is some space for gray, YWAM leadership will often come down really hard on
12:24those places to say, no, nope, that's not us.
12:29You can't have any space for gray and people leave or, you know, a location might even get shut down
12:36because there's not enough people to keep it.
12:39So the longer I'm out of it, the more I can have conversations like this, the more I think I
12:46see those things that I'm like, oh, geez, like that's, yeah, that's, there is not space for gray.
12:52And if you try to make space for gray, you're often punished.
12:56Yeah, I really like that distinction between good and healthy because I also would have said I had a lot
13:03of good experiences.
13:05And I think what you shared is really critical because I've noticed this anecdotally pretty across the board that I
13:14joined YWAM right out of high school.
13:16Like I wasn't even 18.
13:18And so my parents had to sign the forms that said, if I die overseas, YWAM is not paying for
13:25my body to be sent back.
13:27And they're like, what, what is this that you're going to?
13:30And I was so young and I was really good because of purity culture and my conditioning in there that
13:39I really didn't ask questions.
13:41And I've noticed even for folks who are 21, 22, 23, 24, who have had maybe college experience or a
13:49little bit more life experience, there's often more rub and there's more friction because things become more hostile or more
14:00intense.
14:01Hence, as soon as you don't ascribe to the hive mind and as soon as you say, wait, what are
14:07we talking about?
14:08Why are you doing this?
14:09And the things that you've already shared here that are extremely alarming and problematic in terms of bodily autonomy and
14:18consent and choice.
14:20And if you have any inkling of those things, then similar to what you're talking about with YWAM coming into
14:27bases, I think that happens on an individual level as well.
14:31If you are someone who has a little more nuance and a little more skepticism in questioning, I think you're
14:39less likely to have those good experiences because you're going to experience more of the totalitarian nature of these systems.
14:49And I'd love to hear what you think about that, Shelby.
14:52I am sure that those people exist.
14:57I have certainly seen in my context as well, like you said, people that maybe come in older with a
15:03bit more life experience.
15:05What's really interesting and what I'm sort of exploring now and even looking at in my master's is the way
15:15that theology comes into play.
15:18So, when you have somebody that has a lot of life experience or some, even some life experience outside of
15:24that high control religious space and for whatever reason, they feel called, right?
15:32There's a calling, there's some way of hearing the voice of God to say, I want you to join YWAM,
15:39I want you to join in this location.
15:41And what's funny to me that I'm realizing, I'm like, oh, I didn't realize this before, but like, if you
15:49apply for a passport, you're probably going to get a passport.
15:54But it's turned into this spiritual thing, right?
15:56Oh my God, I got my passport.
15:57So, that means God is on my side.
16:00And I'm like, but that's how governments work.
16:03But that's not how you're taught to think, you know, oh, I wanted to make this flight and someone sent
16:11money in last minute, you know, it's like, well, you literally told everyone, you know, and you're 21 and they
16:16all feel bad for you.
16:17So, of course, they're going to send money to be like, oh, let's help precious little Shelby get onto her
16:22flight, you know.
16:24And so, with these people who have more life experience and they're coming in, they have had whatever experience where
16:30they feel like God has called them to this place.
16:32And I'm seeing a lot of the way that theology deeply, deeply impacts this because there's a heavy dissonance for
16:41these people where, like you said, they're seeing the things that are not okay.
16:46And yet, they have to justify it somehow to themselves because if they leave, then they must have heard God
16:57wrong in the first part.
17:00Then what does that mean about them?
17:02What does that mean about their relationship with God?
17:05What does that mean about their ability to hear God's voice?
17:09And it's like you pull on one of the threads and everything starts to unravel.
17:14So, what I've actually seen with these people is like a deeper digging in to like, yeah, no, I see
17:21it.
17:22It's so bad, but God hasn't released me yet.
17:26God hasn't told me I can leave.
17:30God told me I have to stay here three years and those three years aren't up or, you know, whatever
17:35it is.
17:35And I'm really fascinated and honestly saddened by that because they can see the unhealth.
17:44They can see the destructive nature of the system.
17:51And then they say, well, yeah, God hasn't released me.
17:54On the other hand, you get the people who are like, well, I'm going to change it from the inside.
17:59I can change it from the inside, which I feel is sort of like the height of arrogance to say
18:06all of these victims that have spoken up, all of these people over the years of the entire history of
18:12Y1 that have tried to speak up, have tried to change it, have been unable to change it.
18:18And you're sitting here telling me, you know, I'm going to stay inside.
18:22I actually had some of my former team tell me, like, well, we're staying.
18:28When I said I'm leaving, I need to leave.
18:31And they said we're staying and they invoked Bonhoeffer.
18:35You know, the Bonhoeffer, Dietrich Bonhoeffer worked within the system.
18:39And so we're working and I'm like, he did not.
18:41What are you talking about?
18:43Like he was a German national who lived in his country.
18:46That's not working within the system like you were talking about.
18:49He didn't become a Nazi to, yeah.
18:53So the sort of mental gymnastics that are needed for a myriad of reasons.
19:02And so it's, I actually feel worse in some ways for those people because it's such a clinging onto.
19:11We have to make this make sense because it so deeply doesn't make sense.
19:17So their experience, their life experience and their education can often be a deeper hindrance, I feel like, because of
19:24that.
19:25I used to do IT consulting.
19:26And I remember having this one contract.
19:29I had to go in as middle-tier management.
19:33I usually did upper-tier management.
19:35But I came into the facility and it was pure chaos.
19:40And I was talking to the guy that had connected me and he said, this place is a little bit
19:44of a mess, John.
19:45We kind of have to manage from underneath.
19:48And at the time that sounded good.
19:50I come in.
19:51He said that he had been doing it.
19:53Some other people had been doing it.
19:54They're basically managing underneath the manager.
19:56The problem that I hit, which is what everybody will hit if you try to do this kind of thing,
20:02is that the one above you may be in chaos.
20:05But he may be in chaos because somebody above them is directing them into the chaos.
20:11So what ends up happening is the person who's trying to fix things from underneath, they hit the same brick
20:16wall and they become burnt out.
20:17They try so hard.
20:19It doesn't succeed.
20:20And it becomes like insanity.
20:22You keep trying to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.
20:26Well, upper management is going to make sure you don't get the same result.
20:30I look at all of this, you know, when people first came to me and they said, why WAM is
20:35connected to this?
20:36I actually didn't believe it because the doctrines were so far different.
20:40But I started looking beyond the doctrines into just the schematics of how or the dynamics of how it was
20:47working.
20:48And I started to see systematic similarities in the framework, I guess is the best way to put this.
20:55So I started digging into the framework and it is exactly what you described.
20:59Whenever people can feel like getting the license or getting whatever it is was a gift from God, whenever they're
21:08at that level where they're not thinking critically enough to realize that, well, the guy down the street got his
21:14license.
21:15Is he getting it from God, you know, you've shut off critical thinking to that point to try to prove
21:21that the movement was of God.
21:23So in my IT scenario, I would just not critically think about the chaos to try to believe that this
21:29is a movement of structure in IT.
21:31It doesn't, it never works, but the movement has taught you this and there's a systematic changing of ideologies and
21:39suppressing of critical thinking that gets you to that level.
21:42Certainly. And I think because YWAM is very insular, the speakers are mostly from YWAM.
21:51The books that you have to read are written by people within the organization.
21:55And it's sort of, you know, a lot of people around the world's work is up, like keeping up a
22:03property so that we can welcome other YWAM teams to come to our property.
22:08And then we're going to go to another property so that we can go have a retreat at their property.
22:12And then they're going to go to that person's, you know, and certainly having that very, very insular understanding creates
22:22an echo chamber where you don't get those outside voices.
22:27And in fact, you're not actually encouraged, again, this is on a large scale, a general scale, to look for
22:37outside resources, to engage with people back home so much.
22:42Your mentors are all going to be in YWAM, your one-on-ones are in YWAM, your friends, your whole
22:47community becomes YWAM.
22:48Maybe you go back and see your parents or your family, you know, from time to time.
22:53Um, I actually had a friend who was doing the YWAM Bible School and, um, they had an outside YWAM
23:02speaker come to teach one of the weeks.
23:06And my friend had said, wow, this was so helpful.
23:09I didn't agree with everything this person said, but I found their content around, you know, biblical studies and everything
23:15really interesting, really helpful to inductively study the Bible.
23:20And she was very excited to sort of, um, encourage the course leader to say, wow, thank you so much
23:27for bringing this person, you know, from outside of YWAM.
23:29And as soon as the speaker sort of finished on the Friday and left the room, the course leader came
23:34in and was like, you guys, I am so sorry that I invited this person.
23:39Like, I cannot believe what this person said, like, ignore everything, like, we will never have this person back again.
23:47And my friend was sat there really confused because she was like, well, I maybe didn't agree with every single
23:52thing that this person said, but it was a really helpful perspective to think differently and to think critically.
24:00And just this, like, yeah, sort of deep disappointment around outside voices are not, are not invited.
24:08Um, however, you do get the outside voices that are like friends of YWAM.
24:13So people who are outside of the organization, not John, I don't know if you've seen this in, in other
24:19of your research, where that is, uh, sort of the people that prop up the organization from the outside by
24:26saying like, oh no, I totally validate, you know, this organization.
24:31I think they're great, but here I am on the outside.
24:33So I can speak to that.
24:35Um, I don't know if that's, you've seen that at all.
24:37Yeah, we call it in, in the business world, we call this kickbacks and it's the same.
24:42I mean, when you really think about it, it's all business, right?
24:45So when you have one organization that says, I'll, I'll scratch your back.
24:49If you scratch mine, I'll promote your ministry.
24:51If you'll promote mine, I'm seeing a lot of that.
24:54And that isn't so much a unique thing to youth with a mission or even any of the groups that
25:00I'm talking about.
25:01This goes all the way back through time.
25:03That's just how human humanity works.
25:05The problem is because it is, so say it's IT world, say I promote another guy's IT business and he's
25:13promoting mine.
25:14And I know he's got maybe a couple bad workers, but he has problems, but he can get us there.
25:19I will promote his ministry.
25:21Well, how does that apply to the spiritual world?
25:24I know this ministry and he's got this one bad apple that's teaching Hinduism and calling it Christianity.
25:30They can probably do some good.
25:31Are you going to, are you going to think this way?
25:34In Christianity, you don't.
25:36In business, you do.
25:37So that actually, that's actually where I was trying to head with what I said before.
25:42The structure is what I'm seeing is so similar.
25:45This is a business strategy.
25:46This is not a religious strategy.
25:48I think for me, that's why it feels so important to continue talking about NAR and the Seven Mountains mandate,
25:56because I feel like that is the umbrella over all of these structures.
26:02I just read a really great book I loved called The Seven Mountains Mandate by Matthew Bode.
26:09And he traces a lot of the intersections of Bill Bright, who is the founder of Campus Crusade for Christ,
26:18and Lauren Cunningham.
26:20And there's this, like, mythological story that they both got together in Colorado at the same time,
26:26and they both had the list of the seven spheres of society that they were supposed to impact.
26:33Uh-huh, yep.
26:35Even though, you know, that had already been around from Rashtuni for several years,
26:41but that part of the story isn't told.
26:43Again, it's this, God gave us this.
26:46Yes, and there's something I talk about in my book where I say, you know,
26:53when the favor of God is actually just white privilege.
26:57And I think about that a lot with these stories of,
27:00I got my passport, and how privilege is so invisibilized in this world.
27:06I was about to lead a team to Uganda, and I walked into my team meeting,
27:11and there was an extra person in our meeting at the time.
27:15And one of my co-leaders said,
27:17Jenny, this is Dan Bauman.
27:19He was imprisoned in Iran for nine weeks.
27:22That's how he was introduced to me.
27:24And I was like, nice!
27:26Because I thought, you know, right, you're bragging about this martyrdom.
27:29And he goes, nice?
27:31And I was like, well, how am I supposed to respond to that?
27:33And he goes, not nice.
27:35And I was like, oh, okay.
27:37And Dan Bauman has written several books.
27:40He's become this, like, huge figure in Youth with a Mission
27:44because he was imprisoned in Iran for nine weeks.
27:48And several years ago, this is, like, decades later,
27:51he's still telling this story on YouTube.
27:55It's reaching huge audiences.
27:57And he says he was in Iran on a bus sitting next to a quote-unquote African man.
28:03But then he starts talking to the man, and the man has an accent from Louisiana.
28:08So he's talking to an African-American man, but he calls him an African man.
28:16And this other man says he's been imprisoned in Iran for 18 months,
28:20and he has no idea why he's there.
28:22And Dan ends the story and says, I never talked to him again, but I know he got out.
28:27And gives no context for how he knows that or if that's actually true.
28:32And, you know, Dan has Swiss citizenship.
28:38He had very powerful people contacting the government of Iran to get him out.
28:44But it's told in this story of, like, God is bigger than fear, so don't have fear,
28:50which is incredibly dangerous.
28:52Yes, when we look at, right now, what is happening in Iran,
28:56and the ways in which who gets to listen to fear,
29:00and how is actually, like, our privilege and the passports we hold
29:05influencing these stories where we're saying, oh, yeah, this is what God wants.
29:09But actually, it's just a manifestation of Seven Mountains' mandate.
29:14Yes, absolutely.
29:17The lore is what feeds the engine, right?
29:22So, the books and the stories that were written and, like you said, are just told over and over and
29:31over for decades and decades
29:34becomes the sort of foundation of every other, you know, experience.
29:41Like, something that I get embarrassed sometimes.
29:45I'm like, how did I think this way or, you know, stay in this for so long?
29:51But, you know, you're often compared to like, oh, well, David, you know, did this King David or, you know,
29:58Mary or Jesus.
30:00And I'm like, you are not King David.
30:03Like, just actually understanding this, it was a friend, a friend, very, my best friend.
30:08She had also come out of this, and she is brilliant.
30:12She is an amazing mind.
30:14And she had said this to me at some point, because I was like, oh, this person is saying, you
30:18know, but David.
30:20And she's like, but we're not David.
30:22We can't apply the same, you know, stories and things.
30:27And so, we do that with the biblical stories, but in YWAM, we do that with the YWAM lore.
30:32You know, it's, yeah, it's intense.
30:36I feel like we're rehashing the last five podcasts that you haven't heard yet.
30:41I just had this conversation actually earlier recently.
30:46The problem is they have taken biblical figures and they've made them into hero worship.
30:52And people began worshiping the hero human instead of the god that they're supposed to worship.
30:57And they become untouchable.
30:59Every single time I talk about Bickel to somebody who is not quite sure if it's a problem or not,
31:07they will always go to David.
31:08And not just Bickel, I can go to all of the different ones who have accusations, some of them unsettled
31:17accusations.
31:17I'll say it like that.
31:18But they always go to David because David sinned, therefore they can sin too.
31:23That's not how the Bible works.
31:25That's not how Christianity works.
31:27Take Solomon.
31:28This is the same example, but in a different direction.
31:31Solomon was anointed by God.
31:33Is he untouchable?
31:34Solomon also brought Israel into idolatry.
31:37Are you going to say that's of God?
31:39No, it's the wrong God, right?
31:41They make the biblical figures untouchable in the movement because if you do that, then suddenly now the anointed in
31:50the movement today, they're also untouchable.
31:52They're hero worship.
31:53And that's why they use the phrase, touch not God's anointed.
31:55Yes, and those biblical stories, the YWAM stories become as powerful as that, you know, like the Dan Bauman story.
32:05I had Dan Bauman teach in one of the schools that I did, you know, and tell the story of
32:09the orange.
32:12Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
32:20reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation?
32:25You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
32:32On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
32:40John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
32:46You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
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33:05watching.
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33:10My husband is a farmer, and he runs a farm here that is owned by YWAM.
33:17And that's part of the YWAM lore from the first book, I think, that Lauren Cunningham wrote called Is That
33:23Really You, God?
33:24And they were in Lausanne, they had, you know, purchased his property, and the farm across the street was selling
33:31things because there was going to be a hotel school built across the street.
33:35And Lauren Cunningham felt like God said he's going to give YWAM a farm.
33:40And now this even was, I don't know, something like 10 years later, whatever, long story short, there is an
33:46orphanage here in this village, there was a single farmer who had sort of joined with them.
33:53And so it was this big property with this big orphanage and this farm attached to it that was not
33:59run by the orphanage, it had tenants.
34:03And YWAM took ownership of this property that included this farm.
34:08And so this was the thing, and there was a prophetic act.
34:11Lauren Cunningham went across the street in Lausanne to the sale of the farm that was happening there and bought
34:18a hay wagon.
34:21And they kept a piece of this hay wagon, this long, like, piece of this hay wagon.
34:29And Tom Bloomer, who was the university provost, the University of the Nations, which is YWAM's educational arm, he also
34:37lives in the village.
34:38It's a very sweet old man.
34:40But it's the same thing, like, he would bring out this piece of this hay wagon and tell the story
34:47to all the new staff and students that would come in through our village here and tell the story of
34:55how God gave YWAM this farm.
34:57And, you know, it just, it becomes hutched, you want to touch the stick, you know, touch the hay bale
35:05wagon thing and feel, you know, the promises of God come true.
35:10And it's just this, these things that become the standard by which everyone else has to follow.
35:18So, your life has to be lived like this.
35:22You have to go to the places like Dan Bauman.
35:24You have to be willing to be arrested and do all this stuff because, I don't know, the world is
35:32ending and Jesus is coming back in our generation, according to Lauren Cunningham in 1988.
35:39It's powerful.
35:41It's unfortunately very powerful.
35:42Yeah, I mean, I'm thinking about as you're like, how did I, how did I believe these things?
35:48Like, I'm thinking about how I went to Seattle to go to grad school, but I was still technically on
35:54staff with YWAM and the agreement was I was going to go to grad school for three years and then
36:00move back to Uganda.
36:02And so, because of that, I was adamant I cannot take out student loans.
36:07I'm going to be a missionary.
36:08And I would literally go on hikes around Seattle and, like, look under rocks and be like, maybe this is
36:15a prophetic act.
36:16And Lauren Cunningham found coins in fish's mouths and, like, all of these stories that you read and you're indoctrinated
36:23to.
36:24And so, then when those miracles don't happen, it kind of sends you freaking out because you're like, am I
36:30not listening to God?
36:31Should I not be in Seattle?
36:32Should I be in Uganda?
36:33And there's so much little sense of trust, of self, of intuition, of just basic reality and what is necessary.
36:44I, like, went to the president of my graduate school and I was like, God wants me to go back
36:49to Uganda, so you should let me come here for free.
36:51And they're like, what?
36:53Who are you?
36:55Well, you get into this place where you think it's spiritual, like you mentioned getting the license or whatever, getting
37:01a visa even.
37:02You get to this place where you start to apply the spiritual to everything.
37:05Well, if God is empowering you, then God is also going to control and manipulate the people who you're trying
37:11to get things from.
37:13I have seen that.
37:14I can't tell you.
37:15There came a point in my business whenever I was in the high demand group, I would not do business
37:21with another person who is in the group.
37:23I would always go outside because they're going to try to rob me blind.
37:27I did not know why that was.
37:29But the problem is they feel like they're empowered by God.
37:33Therefore, you're going to submit to their will.
37:35And what it ends up, they basically, it's this idea that you are a sorcerer of kind, of sorts.
37:42You're a sorcerer who can project your thoughts on another person, and they're going to give you a discount.
37:48That's not how God works.
37:50Yeah, there was a scandal here in the 90s with an organization that was part of YOM called Le Rocher.
37:57So it's now a really well-known debriefing center.
38:00They have done some reconciliation work in Rwanda, like after the genocide.
38:07There's a whole story with their stuff.
38:09But there was this, like, I'm going to get the details wrong, some Norwegian investor that came and encouraged all
38:15of these missionaries to invest their life savings and their retirement into this thing that was going to give them
38:23all of these dividends to help them continue to be missionaries and to let them be on the field forever
38:28and ever.
38:28And it was like a Ponzi scheme.
38:30And he took their money and ran.
38:33And what was more interesting or sad was the person who had connected them with, you know, connected these guys,
38:42the investor, fake investor with the missionaries who were giving, you know, all of this money is that he was
38:49sort of like, it's not my fault.
38:51Like, you guys prayed, you, you know, felt like you were supposed to do this.
38:55Like, so I have zero culpability in this because this was God or, you know, Satan or pick one, I
39:03guess, depending on the day.
39:04Like, so the sort of lack of accountability because we can just say it was God, you know, or we
39:14can say it was the devil, whichever fits your narrative best.
39:19Well, I didn't get my passport.
39:20So this was, this is very common, you know, I didn't get my passport.
39:26If something bad happened on that trip I was supposed to be on, then I didn't get my passport because
39:30God didn't want me to be there.
39:32But then what, God wanted the other people to be there?
39:35Or if I did get my passport or I did get my passport and it was the trip was good,
39:39then it was the devil that was prohibiting.
39:42And like you said, John, that assumes a position of God and or the devil sort of like manipulating and
39:48compelling people to do things, which is not that that's not God.
39:54God does not compel people.
39:57I was in a vehicle one time with a lady who was very spiritual and handicapped.
40:02And we were going through the circles of the parking garage and she saw one handicapped spot and saw another
40:09car coming towards it and started praying, oh, Lord Jesus, oh, Lord Jesus.
40:14Flew in there.
40:15We were squalling tires.
40:17Cut the other person off who's handicapped and then got down and prayed, oh, thank you, Lord Jesus, for giving
40:22me this.
40:23I'm sitting.
40:25Number one, I had a hard time bowing my head and praying to God because I didn't think that was
40:30the God I wanted.
40:31But number two, I was looking as she was praying.
40:34I was actually looking at the lady in the car that she cut off, just mortified that I'm in this
40:41vehicle that's done this.
40:42When you get caught up in that type of spirit, you don't think about the consequences of trying to make
40:48yourself the target of all of God's power.
40:51There's always somebody else who can also be just as needy as you.
40:56It was that moment we were fresh out of the call.
40:59It was that moment I realized that the God that we were serving wasn't really a God.
41:04This was just selfishness.
41:06Yes, the definite name it and claim it or declaring or activating, whichever word you want to apply to that.
41:16I remember there was this group from Fire and Fragrance.
41:20I don't know, Jenny, if you know Fire and Fragrance, which was based in Kota, Hawaii.
41:25I think that's the only where they are.
41:27They come to Switzerland as part of an outreach.
41:32And we took them to Ikea for some reason.
41:35Bless these girls came out.
41:38They got their little Ikea catalogs.
41:39And I had gone to do my shopping and I came back and I was like, oh, is it too
41:43long?
41:43You guys okay?
41:44They're like, no, we were going through these Ikea catalogs.
41:46And we were declaring what we were going to have in our home at some point in the future when
41:55we get married or whatever.
41:57That we were just declaring over and praying over these that this was what our home was going to look
42:01like and God was going to bless us with this.
42:05The problem is what happens when that doesn't happen or what happens when you stay in YWAM forever and you're
42:13in decrepit, moldy, leaking YWAM housing with two babies and, you know, you can barely afford to eat, much less
42:24go out and buy furnishings, you know, for your house.
42:27The devastation that I've seen this sort of thinking cause on people's lives is horrific and it is systemic.
42:41And I've seen either people sort of reach that place of, well, I'm a missionary, so I'm supposed to suffer.
42:49And this is just what it is.
42:52You know, God asked us to do this.
42:54So, or, you know, the just deep burnout takes years and years for them to recover it, coupled with a
43:02feeling, a deep feeling of shame and failure because they didn't have enough faith then.
43:08They were trying to name it and claim it.
43:10It didn't come true.
43:11So they didn't have enough faith.
43:15And this sort of theology, this sort of system, like we talked about good experiences versus healthy.
43:22It's not healthy.
43:23It does not lead to life.
43:26But one thing that we see really often in YWAM, and Jenny, you know, you can speak to this, if
43:30this was also your experience, was talk of fruit.
43:33You know, oh, well, this person is doing so many things, you know, whatever that is.
43:38But the fruit is always measured by numbers or how many people you've prayed for or served or welcomed into
43:44your schools or, you know, whatever.
43:48Look how well known that leader is.
43:50Look at the positions of leadership that they hold.
43:52Look at the fruit.
43:55And just coming to realize, like, that's not the fruit that God is looking for.
44:01It's the fruit of the spirit is their love, gentleness, patience, peace, kindness, goodness, self-control in these spaces.
44:09And I don't see it.
44:11Adolescence, late adolescence, when many people, not everyone, but many people join YWAM, it is developmentally a narcissistic stage.
44:22When we are 17, 18, 19 years old, we think we're invincible.
44:26We think the world revolves around us.
44:29We don't really have that much concern for other people.
44:33That's pretty normal for that age as we are coming into the growth of our frontal cortex.
44:40And it feels like these systems then solidify that developmental stage.
44:48And there is this grandiosity and this narcissism.
44:52Like, if the God of the entire universe is following me around, blessing or fighting against every single decision I
45:02make, wow, I am so powerful.
45:07And, you know, I had this amazing therapist one time who, like, for years and years and years would just
45:12go, Jenny, you're not that powerful.
45:14Jenny, you're not that powerful.
45:15And I'm like, no, I am.
45:17You don't understand.
45:18It's just like, Jenny, you're not that powerful.
45:19And it was just like, I didn't even realize how much, like, negative narcissism I had of, like, every mistake
45:26I make, the consequences are going to be so catastrophic.
45:30And so you're either inflated or deflated.
45:33And there's no real sense of, like, yeah, life happens.
45:37And I make mistakes.
45:38And I make good decisions.
45:40And I can have the ego and the self-strength to metabolize that.
45:44It's like, everything has to up the ante just a little bit more.
45:48So I keep puffing myself up, which then sets up for the collapse being even bigger.
45:54And as you mentioned, like, I've seen that be so devastating.
45:57I've experienced that to be so devastating.
45:59And then I've seen that for others as well, time and time again.
46:02Absolutely.
46:03What's interesting, though, is like you said, like, it can get build up, build up until you maybe crash.
46:08And there's the few who crest that wave and, like, jump onto a mountain, right?
46:14And then they're the chosen ones.
46:16They're the next leaders.
46:17They're the ones on the stage at the big conferences.
46:20They're the ones sort of giving vision for the next, you know, season moving forward.
46:28And this feeling of grandiosity or this worldview of grandiosity, if you can connect that with the seven mountain mandate,
46:39right?
46:39Where the prayer walks, Jenny, you know about the prayer walks and going to those places.
46:48You know, I live 30 minutes outside of Geneva, which is a hub for commerce, trade, banking, non-governmental organizations,
46:58you know, and there's a lot of horrible stuff that happens as in any city as well.
47:05And this idea of we're going to go and we're going to prayer walk around this place.
47:10We're going to, you know, bind these strongholds that are over this sphere of government.
47:18I even see that, like, a friend of mine, you know, in the working at the EU where they're like,
47:26we're going to go do a prayer walk at the EU, you know, because we're really making a difference there
47:31by praying and walking around this place.
47:33And it's such a privilege to be able to do this in Northern Ireland.
47:39There is a YWAM base that says that they specialize in reconciliation between Protestants and Catholics.
47:47Now, nobody there is qualified, has any experience in reconciliation training or theology or anything.
47:59But what they do is they do this border walk.
48:02And every year, I think, they walk along the border between, you know, regions, I'm not sure if someone's going
48:08to correct me on that, and pray.
48:11And it's this, everybody at the base has to do it.
48:14Like, you have to have, like, a medical receipt, essentially, from a doctor to say that you, you know, aren't
48:20going to be able to do this.
48:20And they sort of tout themselves as, yeah, we are, we specialize in reconciliation.
48:28And, like, you do not.
48:30You literally do not.
48:32Nobody there is qualified.
48:33But it's like you said, this feeling of grandiosity, which I can recognize so much in myself.
48:38I had Cindy Jacobs prophesy over me in the year 2000 that I was going to change the world.
48:45So, here we go.
48:49But with YWAM, I think especially, it's sort of a situation where, like, big fish in a little pond.
48:56Where this feeling of being puffed up, this feeling of this grandiosity says, like, well, look at me.
49:03I've done X, Y, and Z.
49:04Or I am qualified to do reconciliation between Protestants and Catholics.
49:09And it's super damaging, super damaging.
49:14Yeah, yep.
49:16I remember those prayer walks very well.
49:19I would do them all over the place.
49:21And, yeah, just the idea of territory and what territory was God's.
49:27And I, you know, I was on staff with Colorado Springs, YWAM, and their target nations are the 1040 window.
49:36But I was in Uganda, which technically isn't in the 1040 window.
49:40But it was like, well, you are right below the Muslim nations.
49:44And so, you are staking a stronghold, and you're going to hold back the expansion of Islam into southern Africa.
49:55And I'm like, yep, that's it.
49:57That's what I'm doing as a 19-year-old.
49:59I'm literally thinking, like, God is using me to change northern Uganda.
50:05And I'm going to save hundreds of thousands of people that are already Christians, by the way.
50:12But, like, the idea of just that level of, yeah.
50:18And it makes me think it's this kind of interesting and hilarious story that actually caused me to leave was
50:25that same thing.
50:26I, my body had crashed out, burned out.
50:29Well, I needed a break.
50:31And instead, my base leaders were like, hey, come to YWAM's North American Leadership Conference in North Carolina.
50:40And so, I was 21 years old.
50:42I had no idea why I was at this North American Leadership Conference.
50:46And I didn't really know anything, anyone.
50:49So, I started talking to this person at lunch, asking them where they were from.
50:54They started asking me.
50:55And I was like, yeah, I'm the only person working in northern Uganda.
50:58I'm trying to establish a base.
51:00They started to seem very excited.
51:04And after lunch, one of the people from my base goes, wow, Jenny, you're hanging out with the big leagues,
51:09huh?
51:10And I was like, what do you mean?
51:11And she goes, you know who you were eating lunch with, right?
51:14And I said, no.
51:14She goes, that was John Dawson, who at the time was the president of YWAM.
51:20And I had no idea.
51:22And so, he ended up introducing me to one of the speakers at the conference who was the founder of
51:28my graduate school.
51:29And it was sort of this, like, favor being handed off.
51:33And I ended up getting accepted to my graduate school as a life experience equivalent of a bachelor's degree, unwittingly
51:41not knowing how powerful the people around me were and the connections that they had.
51:47And just thinking, again, oh, this is the favor of God, not these are really powerful men positioning me to
51:55be a soft agent of empire in northern Uganda and figuring out how they can work to make that happen.
52:01So, Jenny, I find that really interesting what you said about you being in northern Uganda and you being the
52:08sole thing between the rest of the continent and Islam and having to sort of hold that back from trickling
52:17down.
52:18And I can't even imagine the weight that must have been for you.
52:23And you said, like, your body, you know, gave up and eventually that was what had to take you out.
52:31And I just, I see that so often, you know, this idea of you're the only thing standing between that
52:39person and hell.
52:40You know, you're the only thing standing between governments doing what they, you know, God wants them to do.
52:47You're the only thing standing between, yeah, in these spheres, right, of education and family and church and, you know,
52:56whatever.
52:57And just the intense pressure that puts on a person and then when or if you can't accomplish that, you
53:09know, the fears of failing, the, you know, when your body does give up, the shame and the guilt that
53:20stems from this.
53:22To me, it's, to me, it's unfathomable that people would then come after hearing these stories and say, but it's
53:32not all bases or it's not all leaders because it is systemic.
53:38No, it's, of course, it's not every single person.
53:40If you tell some people this is what the seven mountain mandate means, it's dominionism.
53:46They'll say, oh, no, no, no, no, no, but we weren't taught that.
53:48We were just taught if you're called to a sphere, you go be in that sphere and you be a
53:52good person and we're just trying to, like, get into the spheres.
53:57I'm like, yeah, but why are you trying to get into the spheres?
54:00Like, what is, follow that all the way through, right?
54:02So, I'm so sorry that that happened to you and I just want to validate that.
54:08I just have this, like, mental image of young Jenny out there trying to hold back Islam from the rest
54:16of Africa.
54:17Thank you for sharing that because that's really powerful.
54:21I just want to validate that.
54:22And to further emphasize what I said earlier, if I sent my children to school and one of the teachers
54:28is teaching them something really, really bad, I'm not going to expect the school, if I talk to a different
54:34school, to say, well, not all schools are like this.
54:37They're going to go try to correct the problem.
54:39You know, they're not going to let the problem be isolated and they're not going to just discount my thought,
54:46my fears.
54:46They're going to try to console me and say, I'm very sorry this has happened.
54:50We're going to get to the bottom of this.
54:52That's what's going to happen.
54:53But time and time again in these religions, what I see is they want to suppress the critical thinking.
55:00They want to stop the person who's speaking out to protect whatever is happening.
55:05That's not Christianity.
55:06It's just wrong.
55:07But thank you so much for doing this.
55:10You know, the more I hear about what you guys went through, the sadder I get because not just you,
55:17but there's so many people that's going through the same thing.
55:19Yes, there may be some good bases.
55:21Yes, there may be.
55:22But if there's just one, just one base causing a problem, why would you let it continue?
55:28I think that is the challenge is because it's not just one base.
55:37I'm not even sure you can say there's a good base.
55:41You know, oh, some bases are good because they're all swimming in the same water.
55:47They're all sort of affected and influenced by the same flavor that is maybe contextualized to their culture in some
55:58way.
55:59So if you're, and I know in like Argentina, there's high, high authoritarian structure that you will go to hell
56:07if you don't do what your leader tells you to do.
56:10You know, whereas in Europe, you're not going to get that explicit.
56:13Well, it depends on where in Europe, but in some places in Europe, you're not going to get, you know,
56:18that explicit sort of threats.
56:21It will be subtle, but it will be there.
56:25So I find it really challenging when people say, well, my base was good.
56:29Also, people cycle through YWAM so often that if you had a good experience somewhere two years ago, that location
56:39might not still have the same people.
56:43It most likely won't have the same people who are doing the teaching and the training and things like that.
56:48So, like you said, John, it's, you would think that when concerns are brought, that that would incur a curiosity
56:59towards how can we do better.
57:02And I surmise that the challenge with that and why YWAM doesn't do that is because they agree with it.
57:12It is what they believe.
57:15It is what gets their vision accomplished.
57:21It is what accomplishes their bottom line, I suppose.
57:24Like you said, it's not a business, but it is a business structure.
57:28I mean, God, the financials of YWAM, that's a whole other conversation that we could talk about in regards to
57:33it being a business, but it's the system.
57:38I'm very glad that you're able to talk about the system.
57:41I'm glad that you both are out to do it.
57:43Thank you so much for doing this.
57:45Thank you so much for the opportunity.
57:47Thanks for you guys for magnifying these stories and these voices.
57:50That's important.
57:51Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
57:55You can find us at william-branham.org.
57:57For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to the NAR.
58:04Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
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