Inside Gospel Assembly: Authoritarian Doctrine, Abuse, and Escape

13 minutes ago

John welcomes former Gospel Assembly member Kathleen Baker for an in-depth conversation on the hidden history, doctrines, and authoritarian practices of Gospel Assembly and its founder William Sowders. Together they examine how early Pentecostal movements, end-times urgency, and claims of exclusive truth created systems of control that later echoed through the Latter Rain movement and into modern charismatic expressions.

Kathleen shares firsthand experiences of spiritual abuse, fear-based authority, and the challenges faced by women inside high-control religious environments, while John connects these patterns to broader historical networks involving William Branham, the School of the Prophets, and later movements influencing today’s New Apostolic Reformation. The discussion offers historical context, survivor insight, and encouragement for those questioning similar systems.

00:00 Introduction
05:55 Who Was William Souers?
11:22 Touch Not God’s Anointed
17:45 The School Of The Prophets
22:40 Serpent Seed, Holiness, And Control
27:48 Branhamism And Gospel Assembly Compared
34:05 Jim Jones, Networks, And Cross-Pollination
36:45 Abuse, Women, And Fear-Based Authority
43:27 Why People Struggle To Leave
48:26 Advice For Those Wanting To Get Out
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Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Kathleen Baker, former

00:45member of Gospel Assembly.

00:47Kathleen, it's good to have you on and to talk about William Souders and Gospel Assembly.

00:52I have not talked to you about this before, but I've wanted to have somebody on from Gospel

00:57Assembly for quite some time now.

00:59I was, for multiple reasons, which I'll get into later, but the first reason, the biggest

01:05one, I just happened to be in the drive-thru, and as I was pulling through with my family,

01:10I've got my ball cap on, and I was probably really dirty.

01:14I was working that day, and the lady came out and handed me food, and suddenly she looked

01:19at me and said, you're John Collins.

01:20And I said, yeah.

01:21I was a little bit shocked, and she said, you helped me escape Gospel Assembly.

01:25I bet you did.

01:26I had to think back through all my podcasts.

01:28I don't know that I've mentioned it even in a podcast, but I did have some research about

01:32it.

01:33And anyway, long story short, she was very glad she had escaped, and she, I'm not going

01:38to mention too many details because I don't want to target her, but she had escaped, and

01:43her life was so far better after the escape.

01:45Oh, absolutely.

01:46And the other reason I've wanted to talk about it, you don't know this either because

01:50we've not mentioned it, but long back, I did a podcast with a guy who, we did, it's a great

01:57podcast.

01:57He had all the information on Branham and all of the connections and spiderweb of different

02:02groups and reasons why Branham was kicked out of those groups, which is crazy interesting.

02:08And at the end of it, I, like I do most people, I ask, is it okay if I put

02:12this out?

02:12If you're okay with it, I showed him the podcast, and he was a little bit unhappy at one of

02:18my

02:18other guests and told me that he, he threatened legal action if I put it out.

02:24So, but in that podcast, I'm safe to mention this because this is outside of the legal consequence,

02:31but he had mentioned, which I had also confirmed through other sources, that William Branham

02:37had a direct connection to William Souders, and that one of the people that Branham worked

02:42with early was taking him to some of the revivals held by Souders.

02:46Now, historically, that would place it into the timeline where Branham was a bishop in

02:51the Roy Davis Pentecostal sect called the Pentecostal Baptist Church of God.

02:57And Davis was the head, he was later the Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, but he was very

03:03high up. So at this point in time, they're building a Pentecost organization, they have

03:09outreach that's connected to William Souders. And there's so much more to the story, because

03:13if you know Souders doctrine and how it works, and understand what William Branham introduced

03:18later, as far as doctrinal standpoints, you can start to see some of that Souders influence

03:24into latter reign and now New Apostolic Reformation. And beyond this to all of the things that you've

03:29researched, Christian nationalism, etc. So, very excited to have you on. Maybe if you could

03:34start by just telling everybody a little bit about yourself.

03:37My name is Kathleen Baker, and I originally came to the, well, it was Gospel Tabernacle at

03:45that time, around 18, 17, 18 years old. I originally was a Lutheran, and I had three brothers that

03:58died from Duchenne Muscular Dystrophy by the time I was 14. But I had asked a lot of questions. I

04:05was

04:05reading my Bible, you know, started when I was 12, 13 years old. I was going to catechism, and they

04:17had

04:17your workbook and your textbook, and I brought my Bible. And because they were teaching, and I said,

04:25wait a minute, this is what the Bible says, the pastor was very upset at me, and basically

04:32got on to me, made me cry. I ran home. He called my mother, thinking that I was, you know,

04:39going to be

04:39in trouble. And she said, what's wrong with you that you can't answer a 13-year-old questions?

04:47And she said, I never had to go back. So that started me wondering about the Bible, wondering

04:55about things. With my brothers dying, I wondered why God couldn't heal them. And so I was looking for

05:04a church that was like an axe, okay? So I was really primed to go into this kind of cult,

05:12because

05:12they want younger people where, you know, they can teach you a doctrine. And they kind of love

05:20bomb you when you first come into it. So, but there was things, though, my godmother was in that church.

05:33Besides, it was my ex-husband that got me going to it. And she was very influential. They did help

05:41me

05:42straighten up my life. You know, she encouraged me. So there was good people that went there. But as

05:50far as the doctrine, there was a lot of abuses in that church.

05:55I can only imagine. And for people who are unfamiliar, who William Souders is, why he matters,

06:02it'd probably be good if we just take a moment and talk through that. Because like I said,

06:05you're the first person who's really gone deep with it. So maybe if you could talk a little bit

06:09about Souders. Well, Brother Souders, what I was taught about Brother Souders is that he originally

06:16was a police officer down in Kentucky. And he did a raid on illegal gambling. And he found the chief

06:26of police and the mayor there. And it really made him distraught. So he went away from being a police

06:34officer. And then he became a fisherman. And he was a fisherman on the Ohio River. During that time,

06:41he met, there was supposedly some kind of gospel boat that he met. And that's where he got the Holy

06:48Ghost. He continued being a fisherman. And he said one day, he heard this voice that kept calling his

06:58name. And at first, he ignored it. And then he said, What do you want, Lord? And the Lord told

07:06him,

07:06I want you to preach my gospel. And so then I think he went to Olmstead in Illinois. Then eventually,

07:18he went down to Kentucky. And he formed the Kingdom of the Campground, which is still there

07:26in Shepherdsville Hill on top of the mountain. But he then, what was told to me, is that he prayed,

07:37and the Lord started revealing what this gospel was. Now, you know, you're taught when you go into

07:46this cult that they have the truth, you know, and no one else does. And they are the only body.

07:55And everyone else is of Babylon. So that's how he originally started out. And then he started

08:04having a school of the prophets down in Campground of the Kingdom, which is in Shepherdsville Hill in

08:10Kentucky. It's such a fascinating history. And whenever I began to understand the similarities

08:17between what William Souders was saying and what William Branham was saying, I mean, right down to

08:21the Ohio River, Branham claims that he was standing right on the Ohio River whenever the God spoke from

08:27the heavens and said, here, I can't remember the exact phrase, but basically, here, my prophet,

08:32which is very similar to what Souders was teaching. Branham obviously made this claim long after William

08:38Souders ever was connected to him. But the gambling thing, that's really what fascinated me,

08:45because Branham kept telling these stories about how his father was making whiskey for,

08:51and he never really went into details, but he said for Mr. Wathen, and nobody knows who Mr.

08:56Wathen is in the cult, right? And so I started digging into the newspapers and found where,

09:02yes, Branham's telling the truth. He, he is working with his father and his father is producing whiskey.

09:08What he doesn't say is that whiskey is going directly to the Cincinnati and Chicago mob. And

09:14that it's, it's, I mean, it's directly connected to Al Capone. It's, it's some crazy history. And I found

09:20history where Al Capone is actually coming to this area, so that he can organize his business deals and

09:26whiskey transactions, etc. What Branham never said was that his dad was not just a simple whiskey

09:33maker, he was a driver for Wathen. So there was this, there was this organized crime syndicate in

09:39this area, where it got interesting with Souders. I read through Souders claims. And yes, it's correct,

09:45he did overthrow some whiskey rings. And you can, in fact, if you go to my website, and you type

09:50in

09:50William Souders, you can find it. I think it was Indianapolis where that happened. But there got to be

09:56this real gray area. Because I was also able to find a William Souders who was arrested for being

10:04part of a whiskey ring. And so I could not, I could not fully prove that it was the same

10:09William

10:09Souders. But the information's out there, you can read through it, and you can decide for yourself.

10:14Where all of that gets interesting is if you look at the dates and time timelines, put it all together,

10:21and consider Illinois to Louisville, Kentucky, you've got that whiskey ring that's going. Well,

10:28it either puts Souders on one of two sides, either he is in the fight against the Branham's, or he's

10:33secretly working with the Branham's, and under the cover of the law, which was not that unusual during

10:38those times. So all of that was fascinating to me. And then to find that Branham was replicating,

10:43not just some of the weird supernatural nonsense, but also some of the doctrines were carried forward.

10:51So we'll get into that more, but it is fascinating history.

10:54It is. I know you really opened my eyes to it. There's much I didn't know, all the connections.

11:03Now, in the group, they always did believe, though, and they always did taught that

11:08the original doctrines came from them, and then it spread out to the rest of the Pentecostal and

11:14evangelical world. Sometimes they believe it was perverted. Other times they, you know,

11:21preach the same thing. Absolutely. That's the way it works. We are the original. Nobody else has the

11:26truth. And if they do have the truth, it's a diluted truth. That's usually...

11:29That's right. That's right.

11:31In fact, in our conversation before I hit recording, you mentioned the phrase,

11:34touch not God's anointed. You'd be shocked how many different groups came from this platform

11:39and still exist today that they say, you can't question authority. And yes, the Bible says to

11:45test the prophets. So which are we to believe? Those who are telling us, don't test the prophets,

11:49or the Bible, which has to test them. Right, right. And, you know, they believe in the five-fold

11:56ministry. And, you know, the pastors do not have any kind of teaching. They believe everything came

12:02in the Holy Ghost. Everything came from God. Or they sat under another pastor and they taught,

12:09and they, you know, learned things. But a lot of things they don't have accurate. Just like

12:15they preach that the King James Bible was the first English Bible, you know. And so there's lots of

12:22things that are wrong. But you also have this big authority. You know what I'm saying? You cannot

12:29question the pastor. You know, no matter if he's doing wrong, because God will take care of him.

12:36You know, I mean, they've even typified Moses, you know, and Marianne going against him, and she ended

12:44up being sick. And so they really believe that. And they also believe that I've heard many times when

12:51I was in there, which was kind of alarming to me. There was a Mennonite couple that came to the

12:58church.

12:59And they only stayed for a little bit. They disagreed. You know, they tried to do their point of view.

13:04That was shut down. Well, when they left, and she got sick and died, they preached it was because

13:12they left that church and went against that church. So, you know, there is a very strong

13:23authoritarian, you know, abuse that goes on there.

13:26Darrell Bock Well, you can't say that he was

13:28the original. If you study some of the other histories of Pentecostals, there are many others

13:32that are doing the same thing. But he was one of the several people who were doing the

13:38Holy Ghost baptism, theology, speaking in tongues, divine healing.

13:43Darrell Bock That's still there.

13:45Darrell Bock Yeah, combining all of that with the

13:46end times urgency. And I think that's the key. You can look at many different Pentecostal histories,

13:52and you can find certain elements of this. But when you combine it with that end times urgency,

13:57it's not just that Jesus is coming. It's urgent. We must get in now. That's usually the ones

14:03that turn destructive and go into an authoritarian stance.

14:06Darrell Bock Yeah, they believed a lot in the end

14:09times. Of course, you know, at the beginning, they thought it was going to come soon.

14:15They believe now that it's going to come soon. And, you know, but they do believe that,

14:23you know, there is nobody over the pastor but God. And so, you know, if you go against him,

14:30and me being who I am, asking questions, and I'm a woman, you know, that gets you in trouble.

14:39Darrell Bock Oh, yeah. The other thing that, you know,

14:43there's so many different doctrines that lead towards destructive natures. But the other thing

14:49that usually comes into play is they'll teach the notion that the church as a whole has become

14:55apostate. We're the true church. Everybody else has grown apostate. And God is restoring the church

15:02through our little tiny group. And after leaving, you know, I look back at it because we believe the

15:09same thing. It made God so powerless because rather than being able to restore the church as a whole,

15:15God could only restore this little tiny church that existed as our cult. Was that the same in

15:21Southers group?

15:22Dr. Beth Dombkowski What they taught is that the church went into

15:26the wilderness when Constantine got the original church, you know, mixed into Rome. And then it's

15:33been slowly coming out of the wilderness. So, you know, first you had some truth with Martin Luther,

15:39and then you had some with, you know, Wesley and Calvin, and then you had Pentecostalism. And they

15:45believed that Brother Stouters was almost like an angel that opened a new seal, you know what I'm

15:53saying, and brought in this, you know, more righteous and closer to God's real teaching.

16:04And so, you know, that's what we were always taught. And they still, you know, there's

16:11there's some still that, you know, they're very cut off, you know, from the rest of the churches,

16:16and they want to keep it that way. But there's some that has, you know, even believe some of this

16:23Gnar and evangelical stuff too. But I can go into, you know, what all the doctrines were.

16:31Darrell Bock Yeah, I'd like that. Before we do,

16:33there's one last question. It's just burning in my mind.

16:36Darrell Bock When I first began this journey back in 2012,

16:40and I discovered Souter, probably mid 2012, maybe 2013. I published this, it was like a flow chart,

16:48I wish it still existed, but it had side by side, here's what Souter's claim, here's what Branham

16:52claim, and it just went right down, row by row, it was so eerily similar. When I put that out

16:58there,

16:59somebody contacted me who apparently had some sort of a rank in the Gospel Assembly, and mentioned the

17:06School of the Prophets, which I had heard Branham mentioned, but I never connected it to Souter's.

17:12And recently, there are other people who are contacting me, because now they have heard of

17:15the School of the Prophets, and where did this idea come from? The person who contacted me,

17:20I wanted to get them on record, but they were, like so many people, they were scared for their lives

17:26if

17:26they came out on record against it. But they told me that Branham was not only in attendance,

17:32but they had seen some attendance books of the School of the Prophets, and Branham was there.

17:37Which I don't expect that you would have any of that information, but do you have any information

17:41on the School of the Prophets itself, what it was, and how it worked?

17:45Yes, yes. So, you know, like I said, Brother Souter started the Campground of the Kingdom

17:50in Shepherdville, Kentucky, and that's where the School of the Prophet was. And basically,

17:56Brother Souter's ran it, but this is one thing that he had. He had a thing called a threshing floor.

18:02And so, he would let different pastors come in, or the pastors that were under him in that group,

18:09and they would debate different doctrines and feel like that, you know, they would eventually

18:15come to what the truth was. But Brother Souter's, but he taught, you know, the five-fold ministry.

18:22He said that was, you know, what was it, Elijah that said he's seeing the cloud like a, like, you

18:31know, five, you know, like a hand, I think is what he said. And so, they preached that. They also

18:40believed very much that you have to get the Holy Ghost. You know, you cannot be saved without getting

18:46the Holy Ghost. Um, they believed very much into holiness. Um, you know, they believed that the

18:54women cannot, um, the women have to wear skirts. You cannot wear makeup. You have to have long hair.

19:02And all of that has to do with overcoming. You cannot, you know, they don't want you to wear jewelry.

19:09And so, um, now what they, the way that they made the group, they made it where, um, there was

19:16days

19:16where the pastors got up and taught, and you had to honor them, you know, because they were of the

19:23five-fold ministry, and they had the authority, and you cannot, you know, touch the anointed. Um,

19:30and, uh, so there was time, there was days where they would preach, but there was other times where

19:35people could get up and basically talk and testify. Um, now, um, they, they believed in two in the

19:44Godhead. That's what was preached. There was two in the Godhead. There was not one. There was not three.

19:51Um, they, um, like I said, they believed that they were, um, uh, my love, my dove, you know, my,

20:00my only one. They used that scripture in Song of Solomon's. And, um, so he preached, like I said,

20:07the five-fold ministry. They preached two in the Godhead. Um, they also, um, you know, preached

20:15holiness. They preached the Holy Ghost, that you had to have the Holy Ghost. Um, they believed, um,

20:23um, that the Catholic Church was the beast, um, like the original, you know, um, prophets did. Um,

20:33they believed that, uh, this was the latter rain, and they were bringing in the latter rain movement.

20:40So, um, they also believed, though, he did preach, um, um, chapter 13 of, uh, Corinthians when it came to

20:49charity.

20:51Um, um, and he did, you know, preach eventually that, uh, you know, um, charity would be, you know,

20:58the most important thing. Um, but, um, you know, the, the main thing, though, that, that he preached

21:06was, you know, the five-fold ministry and that you are going to be taught by them. Uh, another thing

21:13they had, uh, they believe in orchestra music. They do not believe in regular band. So they had

21:20an orchestra and, um, they, um, made their own music even saying that it was God's music. Um,

21:29basically the way that you, you know, have a transposed instrument, uh, and you transpose the music in

21:35front of you. They made the instrument where it was transposed fingering and they believed that was more

21:42of God. And so I got in trouble because I got up one day because I have a degree in

21:47music and a degree

21:48in nursing. And so, so I got up and I said, you know, the people out there don't know any

21:53difference.

21:54You know, they just know if the sound, the song feels, you know, sounds good and you, and you get

21:59blessed, you know, they don't care if it's this or it's that, you know. And, uh, so that wasn't very

22:07well taken, you know, cause I'm a woman and how dare I question. Um, and I'll let you in on

22:14a

22:14little secret. I play stringed instruments as you can see. That's my, that's my favorite. I do have

22:19a piano because when I make music, you really need one and it is stringed except for mine, but, but

22:25I

22:25only learn how to play it in one key. So I use the transposed key and I'm evil by the

22:29cult standards

22:30apparently. I know it. I know it. And so, um, you know, there, there's different things that came

22:37from it, but, oh, and another important thing that, that they believed is that, um, you know,

22:44um, the main sin that happened in the garden was sex and that eventually you would have to overcome

22:51that. And, uh, you know, along with overcoming everything that was, um, you know, of the flesh,

22:59they believed the flesh and the carnal mind, uh, was actually the devil. They did not preach

23:05that there was a literal devil. Um, they preached that it was us and we needed to overcome our carnal

23:14mind and, and, and, um, and they believed that a pastor edifying you was getting onto you over the

23:23pulpit. You know, they would not, uh, take you aside. They would humiliate you, you know, in front

23:31of the whole congregation. Um, and, um, but, um, later on though, see what's, what's happening is so

23:39after William Sauters and he passed away, then there was a brother Jolly that took over in St.

23:46Louis and brother Jolly was best busted for, uh, being a pedophile. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was,

23:56he was busted for being a pedophile. Um, there was a lot of abuse in that church and he even

24:01escalated

24:02the five foot ministry even more. He, in his big church in St. Louis, Missouri, he has these ramps

24:10where the pastors would come down, you know, in front of the congregation, you know, I mean, almost

24:16you, you basically had to worship them, you know, they, they, uh, taught that, um, you couldn't have

24:24a house or, you know, the, you had to ask them before you bought it or that you moved, you

24:32know what

24:32I'm saying? Um, uh, you, you should ask the pastor if you're going to change your job, you know, uh,

24:40yeah,

24:40there, there was a very, um, and, um, in the church of St. Louis, they actually had women that, uh,

24:48would

24:48get on to other women too. So there was, there was a lot of psychological abuse, you know, that they

24:54did

24:55to people. Um, but, um, so after, uh, Tom Jolly took over in St. Louis, then, um, there was a

25:04great

25:04schism in that church. Then there was a division and it just happened to be that the church I went

25:10to,

25:10uh, was, uh, was Gospel Tabernacle. They didn't want the name of Gospel Assembly anymore because

25:15they were ashamed of what happened. Um, now another thing that they did, um, um, in that, um, in that

25:25organization, that church cult, um, is they always had a house for the widows and for the, for, you know,

25:33for women. And, um, uh, that actually in some ways that was good, but in some ways they were taken

25:41advantage of too. Um, but, um, so I came out of the Gospel Assembly, I mean the Gospel Tabernacle,

25:49um, and they had split up the Gospel Assembly and the Gospel Tabernacle, and then they were fighting

25:57amongst one another that they were the real church and the other ones weren't. Um, but the Gospel

26:06Tabernacle then went back and, uh, renewed the campground of the kingdom. Um, in fact, I was there

26:16and I helped them. I mean, it was, yeah, we, we went in there and cleaned up and, and, uh,

26:22on that

26:22campground of kingdom, another thing they have is a bunch of little cabins. So they have a huge

26:28tabernacle, they have a, a lunch stand, and then a whole bunch of different cabins where people

26:34would come there and stay. Um, and, um, that was very well controlled too. In fact, the pastor I was

26:43under actually was the head of that. He was the head of the campground of the kingdom.

26:48Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started,

26:51or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic,

26:57and other fringe movements into the new apostolic reformation? You can learn this and more on

27:03William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the

27:10website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,

27:16John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

27:22You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those

27:28movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking

27:34the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video

27:40version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William Branham Historical Research,

27:45we want to thank you for your support. It's interesting to hear you talk, because I grew up

27:50moving a lot, and I went to many different organizations, different churches within the

27:55Branham organization. And bits and pieces of what you're talking about and describing, I can identify

28:02with different groups that I was in. Not all-encompassing, which is interesting, because I might go to one

28:08church, and they might have part of what you said, and they would say, no, it's not like, not anything

28:12like this. But the combination of the whole actually fits. It's very similar to what you're

28:18describing, right down to the two in the Godhead. I have been to Branhamite churches that would say

28:23it's one like your finger, and I've been to others that, honestly, they were teaching a form of

28:28Trinitarianism and just didn't realize it. But if you go all the way back to what Branham taught with

28:34the manifested sons of God doctrine, which I'm going to ask you about in a minute, Branham taught

28:39that Jesus was not divine, that he was just simply a prophet, and that God came down and

28:45anointed him as the manifested son of God. So if you take Jesus out of the Godhead, like

28:51he did, and say that Jesus was manifested, that leaves you with two. So essentially, it's

28:58not the same way Sadrists taught, obviously, but by logical definition, that would be two in

29:02the Godhead, not three, which is interesting. But the way that he would twist it is, he

29:08would say Jesus, basically, he was endued with the power, and then, you know, he was the

29:12manifested son of God, and Branham would allude to the fact that he would insinuate, I guess

29:17is a better way to say it, insinuate that he himself was the future manifested son of

29:22God. So I'm curious how far Souders went with that, if that was...

29:27Well, what they taught is that Jesus was the first of the overcomers. And, you know, there's

29:41in the Bible, it talks about, you will be my friends, you know, and they believed that

29:47when we overcome, then we could eventually be like Jesus. I mean, they, you know, they

29:56believe that, and they believed for us to get back to the garden, that we had to overcome,

30:03you know, that, you know, they believe that, they still believe that the bride is the 144,000,

30:11person, and that to overcome, you have to be in that. And, and, and then they believe

30:18some of us, you know, will make it on the new earth. But they never really talked about

30:23the manifesting sons of God, you know, not that term. But I guess in some ways, they did

30:29believe that because, you know, you've got a five-foot ministry, basically, they have a

30:35platform, and, and the men set up there, or the people that are in the band. And they

30:41are above, you know what I'm saying? Supposedly, they, they have, they're closer to God, you

30:49know, they reveal the truths to you. And, you know, so, and, but, you know, they do believe

30:58that, you know, that he was, Jesus was half God and half man. They do believe that. That

31:07you, I guess you could, being an overcomer, I guess you could become a manifesting, you

31:12know, sons of God.

31:13Darrell Bock Yeah, there's just so much. And I feel like I'm doing this interview in reverse.

31:16Usually I let the person talk, but I'm just so filled with questions because there's a

31:21historical background here that I don't think people, people don't realize how significant

31:24it is. In my research into Souders, I was able to find trace elements of the latter rain

31:30doctrine. And so Souders, Branham is definitely in attendance. I've got multiple sources that

31:36confirm it. If they are correct, he's definitely in attendance. To a group that is teaching the

31:41latter, the basic core concepts of latter rain, and you just mentioned five-fold ministry.

31:46How far did they go with even that term, latter rain?

31:49Darrell Bock Well, I think they went pretty far. I mean,

31:52they believe that, you know, that the latter rain is going to be greater. And they were

31:59bringing in the latter rain, you know. And I don't know, you know, how William Brannon taught

32:08it. I didn't even know about William Brannon until, you know, I started watching your show

32:14and your podcast. But, you know, the latter rain, you know, they, what they believed is

32:22that they had the truth. I don't know if this has anything to do with the latter rain, but

32:27they believed it was their gospel that eventually the Jews would pick up and they would, you know,

32:34preach to the rest of the world. So I don't know if that has anything to do with the latter

32:39rain. But they did, you know, as far as their latter rain, they felt like there was going

32:43to be a bigger anointing in God, you know, the Holy Ghost would fall more. They really

32:50believed that that's what the latter rain was about, a more outpouring of the Holy Ghost,

32:56almost like in the chapter Joel.

32:58Darrell Bock Yeah, there's so many similarities. I mean,

33:01when you consider the bigger picture of all of the similarities in doctrine, right down to,

33:05you mentioned the serpent seed, which is core Christian identity doctrine. If they weren't

33:11directly related, they were all part of the same network of people teaching that same doctrine.

33:16You can't really say that Sauters originated these doctrines. I can trace back, you know,

33:21long before Sauters. These all preexisted, but they combined them and formed this concoction of

33:28bad theology that seems to create and generate destructive cults. In fact, I won't give too much

33:35information because I don't want to out this person who contacted me from the Sauters group,

33:40but they said basically they had identified several different groups that had emerged

33:44that were either a direct result of Sauters and his doctrine, or they were strongly influenced by.

33:50And they just went right down the line, and they mentioned William Branham, and I'm like,

33:55nah, there's no way. But the more I dug into it, the more I realized that there was at least

33:59an

33:59influence. And then whenever I tied him to that school of the prophets, this influence became far greater.

34:04Right. And, you know, one thing, when that was going on with Jim Jones, my godmother told me

34:11that Jim Jones was connected to our group. And so, you know, when you said that Branham was connected

34:18to Jim Jones, you know, then I realized, oh, yeah. And they said, you know, that he just went bad,

34:24you know, that Jim Jones just went bad.

34:26Yeah, and that would put the timeline. See, there was a point in time when Gordon Lindsay had got,

34:33I don't know, disenchanted with Branham and was trying to separate ties, which did not work.

34:38But during that time, Jones seems to be rising up to become a leader. He's hosting Branham

34:43conventions in multiple states. And that's when you think Jim Jones, you're thinking of that timeline

34:48when he's in Pentecostalism, which would be the 1950s. So that, and I had heard the other person

34:56say that. I just haven't been able to confirm it. But if you think it, think through it on that

35:00timeline, now you've got this assembly of people who are all part of the same network, teaching the

35:05same theology, same doctrines, cross-pollinating ideas. And it's just, like I said, it's a concoction

35:12of bad theology.

35:14It is. It is very much so. And I think, you know, like I said, me watching your podcast has

35:19opened

35:20my eyes, you know, to how everything has got so much false doctrine. And, you know, I think what

35:31bothers me about it, you know, I don't want to point finger because I think that, you know, in any

35:35organization, there's good people, you know, that are trapped. But, you know, they use their authority

35:42to guilt people and make them afraid. You know, when these are good, honest people with a good

35:49heart and a good soul that just want to do something toward God. And they think going against,

35:56you know, a pastor or the organization is going against God. And it's sad that people

36:04can believe harmful things, you know, when all they want to do is, you know, serve God.

36:10Absolutely. There are good people in all of the groups that I've examined. The problem is some of

36:16the good people, in fact, I know some people in leadership that I would consider a good person,

36:21but because of the doctrine they're teaching, they can do harm to many, many people. So good people can

36:27also do harm. And that's, it took me a while to understand that concept because we were taught this

36:31black or white, good or evil, angels or demons. And life is just simply not like that. There's a lot

36:37of gray areas. So I've come to terms with the fact that there are good people who teach bad things

36:43and

36:43do very, very bad things destructively. Right, right. There is. And, you know, this is the one thing I

36:48think one of the worst things is probably against women because, you know, they preached you have to

36:55stay with the man no matter if he's a little bit abusive. And you still, and if you obey him

37:00and you get

37:01closer to God, that you will save him. And I had that, you know, and he was very narcissistic. And

37:10then when I got away from him, and I studied, you know, about narcissism and psychopathy, I realized

37:17that, you know, it's really is a narcissistic system when you have a cold like that, you know, that you

37:24cannot question and they can beat you down in front of everyone else and humiliate you like that.

37:32And they think they have the right to do that under God. And that's the worst thing. That's the worst

37:39thing. You've mentioned the women a few times, and that's a widespread problem, not just with even the

37:44cults that we're talking about. But I'm curious, towards the, I guess it was the 1960s, Branham

37:52started going into weird directions with his theology. And he started making statements that

37:58led people to believe polygamy was okay. He, in fact, he started saying the Bible talked about a

38:05covenant of polygamy, which is, it's nonsense if you think about it. Was that kind of thing going on

38:12in gospel assembly churches that you're aware of? No, no, I don't know anything like that,

38:16that they did. But, you know, if a man had committed adultery, it was more easily forgiven

38:25than if a woman would do that, you know what I'm saying? And of course, you know, just like with

38:31Tom Jolly. So, so, you know, I got in trouble because I was originally started at Gospel Tabernacle.

38:40And because of being humiliated over the platform, I, this happened in the middle of service,

38:49I had actually brought a boy that was my neighbor that I was introducing to the Lord. First time he

38:55had been there. I didn't go to church, I couldn't go to church that much because my husband would only

39:00let me go on certain times. And so here I was breaking things against that. My, I have a, I

39:07have a son and a

39:08stepson. We all played in the band. We played trumpet trios. Actually, we did. And anyway, so the

39:16pastor, I'm telling him, hey, you know, this young boy's here with me. And he said, oh, yeah, I know

39:22him. I've seen him before. He comes as often as you do. And people started laughing, you know. And

39:31I was very upset. I started crying. I went to the bathroom, slammed the door where everybody could

39:36hear me. And then I had all of my kids gather all of their instruments and we got up and

39:42left in the

39:43middle of that service. And oh man, that's still talked about, you know, that I was really wrong for

39:48doing that. When I got to my car that day, a sister ran out and said, Kathy, Kathy, come back

39:56in. We all

39:56want to pray for you. And I said, they need to pray for him, you know. And so I left.

40:03Well,

40:04so I thought I could go, excuse me, I thought I could go to a different church. Well, they will

40:12blacklist you. They will make sure that that is spread, you know, all over. And so, you know, even,

40:21you know, different churches believe different things. But anyway, so I went to the church in

40:27St. Louis that originally was within the Gospel Assembly. Now, I didn't know all this, see, because

40:35my pastor was trying to get all the churches to come back together. We visit. I mean, there are

40:41churches all over the nation. There's even churches in Haiti. We have an orphanage there or they had an

40:49orphanage there. Churches in Europe and Africa. I mean, they have churches all over and they're

40:56still preaching this. But anyway, so I found out they actually have Tom Jolly's silverware under glass

41:08that people can come and see. They have all these pictures about him and Brother Souters and then they

41:14have his silverware under glass. And this is the guy that was, St. Louis, you know, actually went to court

41:24against him and many people came to him about his pedophilia, you know. Now, because he was old when he

41:32finally got persecuted, he was just under house arrest, but he was humiliated. And I didn't even know that,

41:39you know what I'm saying. I'm going to this church and I didn't even know that. So then I learned.

41:44Then I

41:44started learning. And so I left that church and tried to go to another body church. And, you know,

41:52they make sure that everything, you know, they might think that they're in holiness, but they will gossip

42:01and they will backbite and they will run you down. And I think they're probably waiting for something

42:09bad to happen to me. Because I want against them because I eventually moved from that area. Now I

42:19live in Virginia. And there for a while, they would even stalk me on Facebook. They wouldn't say

42:27anything. But, you know, I knew they were, they were, you know, looking at me on there and also

42:33LinkedIn. Yeah, even that doctrine is very similar. Whenever things went really, really wonky with

42:39Branham's doctrine, he would say things like, with regards to polygamy, he can, but she can't,

42:46meaning that he can have multiple wives, she can't. And so it's, the whole thing is just so absurd

42:52when you think about it. No, no, they, they, they never did that. And, and, you know, like I said,

43:00that body was split up. And there was some people that were very upset what Brother Jolly did. And

43:07they went off and, and started their own. But, and what they wanted to do was to go back to

43:12what

43:13originally what William Souters had taught. They felt like Tom Jolly had got away from it. So there was a

43:20lot of people that were upset. But then there's still some that believe that he never did anything.

43:27So let's talk a bit about the ex-members community. Because like I said, I ran into somebody just

43:32happenstance. And I've had people contact me. Are there former member groups that you're aware of

43:38where people are escaping and helping one another?

43:41No, I really, I know that there is a website that's recovering from, you know, or recovering

43:51from Gospel Assembly, I believe is what the name of it is. But, you know, this is the thing,

43:58you know, they, they go so much in, you know, you, you are so ostracized from the rest of the

44:06world.

44:06You know what I'm saying? I, I felt like, you know, that I got further away from my family,

44:11and that became my community, that I think there's a lot of people that have left and knew that there

44:18are things wrong. But they're too afraid, you know, to form a group that would be against it. Because,

44:25you know, when you're, when you're taught that you're going to be, something's going to happen to

44:30you, God's going to have lightning strike you, or, you know, you're going against, you know,

44:36the truth of the Gospel that, you know, they laid out, and you're going against the men of God,

44:42then there's a lot of people that just leave. And, you know, some just, you know, leave God all

44:52together. Some go into other groups. But there's a lot of people that do not get healed from it.

45:00Yeah, sadly, it's that case with many different groups. I tell people, if you're struggling,

45:05and you can't move past it, it might be good to get a therapist and have them help you work,

45:10work your way through it. So if you could, tell us a little bit about how you were able to

45:15finally break free from this.

45:17Well, you know, like I said, I had, I had an abusive ex-husband, and I got away from him,

45:28you know, which working in the nursing field actually helped me that. And then once I got

45:33away from him, I knew there was things that were wrong. I knew there was things, I questioned a lot

45:38of the doctrine, you know, in my mind, even when I was there, about how they treated people and what

45:45their doctrine was. But then when I left my ex, and I seen how narcissists work, you know what I'm

45:53saying, then I, then I started realizing that they were very narcissistic and abusive, too. You know,

46:00there's a lot of times you don't, you don't realize how much you're being abused until you get away from

46:06it. So, you know, so that's when I seen it. And, you know, even though there was people that were

46:15following me on Facebook, what I ended up doing was pasting videos about spiritual abuse. Because,

46:23because that's, you know, that that's really what it is. And so I did, you know, I did, there's a

46:32lot of

46:32us nurses that took care of COVID patients, and we ended up with, you know, post traumatic stress. And

46:39I did talk to a counselor then. And we did talk over, you know, a lot of those things. I

46:47still

46:47probably am working through some things. And, you know, you're right, there needs to be a group started,

46:54you know, to get away from them. But, you know, another thing, too, they marry in between,

46:59you know, they marry together. You know, that's one thing. And the campground is for, too. All the

47:06churches from all over the United States still come to that campground. And then they meet, you know,

47:12whoever they're going to marry. Because they want to, if you marry outside of the body, a pastor will

47:20not marry you. You have to marry inside the body, and they have to have the Holy Ghost. So,

47:29you know, so there's many people that are still stuck in that community or around it because

47:36their family's there.

47:38Yeah. And like I said, doctrine for doctrine, you're going right down the list of things that

47:42I believe we couldn't marry outside of the message. When I was attending certain churches,

47:47there were other churches. It was no problem. And we called it the message. That's the cult

47:51following of William Branham. The doctrines are so similar, and you can tell that there's definitely

47:56a cross-pollination of ideas. And it, you know, this concoction of bad theology has produced a lot

48:03of victims. That's the sad part. And you can't really narrow it down to say Souders was the origin,

48:09because I can find many of these doctrines before him. But these groups, a group of men,

48:14whoever's in this circle, and you've mentioned Jones, Souders, Branham, there are other ones that

48:19I have identified. This cross-pollination of these ideas just seem to be so very destructive.

48:25What advice would you have for somebody who's in the group, who's finds this podcast, and they're

48:31thinking about coming out, but are scared to take that first step? What advice would you give them?

48:36Well, you know, one thing that I learned, you know, because I tried to associate with it some,

48:43you know what I'm saying? I would visit, or I think the best thing to do is just totally get

48:49away

48:50from it, and really start reading the Bible, and, you know, read more about what Jesus said. And,

49:00you know, and I think what you need to do, what I started doing, was not looking toward the pastor,

49:08or the five-fold ministry, but look into Jesus and God himself, you know, to guide you and to help

49:16you.

49:17But really go into the Bible. Another thing would be good is to watch your podcast,

49:24because, you know, it shows you that what they're teaching is, like you said, it's a pollination.

49:35It's, it's been, it's a lot of other teachings all over the place. It's not that they are this special

49:43group, you know, because, because they're not, you know, they, but, but it takes something. It takes

49:51something, and, and I think you got to get away from the fear, you know, that God's not going to

49:59strike you with lightning for, for doubting and questioning this. You know, even if you do know

50:06that there's good people there, you, you, for your own sake, for your own mental health, it's best to

50:14get out of it. If you could go back and give yourself some encouragement when you're going

50:18through those hard times that made you leave, what advice would you give yourself? Don't be afraid.

50:23Don't be afraid. And, you know, listen to your heart and, and read your Bible. You know, this isn't

50:36right, Kathy. You know, this isn't right the way they treat you. Well, that's very good advice. Thank

50:41you so much for doing this. And it's a pleasure, John. It's a pleasure. I've enjoyed your podcast very

50:47much. Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information or to share your story, you can

50:51check us out on the web. You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark

50:55side of the new apostolic reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion, From Christian Identity to

51:00the NAR. Available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.

51:21Bye.

Inside Gospel Assembly: Authoritarian Doctrine, Abuse, and Escape | 567

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