From Word Of Faith To NAR: How Movements Drift From The Gospel | Podcast Episode 575 - video Dailymotion

William Branham Historical Research

John and Tim explore how modern charismatic movements can drift from Scripture into “special revelation,” elite identity, and end-times fear, and why that shift often changes how believers treat outsiders and former members. They discuss how proof-texting, confirmation bias, and platform-driven incentives can create a self-reinforcing culture where experiences feel authoritative even when they collide with Jesus’ teaching.  They also unpack Colossians 2:18 as a diagnostic for vision-centered spirituality, and talk through practical ways to rebuild a grounded faith: returning to the core message of Christ, testing claims against Scripture, and learning to engage people beyond insulated religious subcultures with humility, compassion, and intellectual honesty.  00:00 Introduction 01:42 Tim’s Background In Pentecostal And Charismatic Ministry 03:29 Proof Texting, Defensive Reflexes, And Questioning The Movement 07:38 Fruits Of The Spirit Versus Charismatic Elitism 11:17 Hurt, Deconstruction, And How People Leave High-Control Groups 14:43 Islamophobia, Recruitment Culture, And Life Inside The Charismatic Box 21:02 Reentering The Secular World And Learning To Love People Again 28:03 How Word Of Faith And Special Revelation Grow Into Movements 33:07 Colossians 2, Visions, Angels, And The Problem Of Spiritual Spectacle 40:26 Forgetting The Gospel Inside A Supernatural Religion 43:22 Public Scandals, IHOP, Branhamism, And Rebranded Patterns 49:18 Why Out-Of-Touch Ministry Fails To Reach Real People 53:02 Using Scripture And Discernment To Resist Extra-Biblical Teaching ______________________ Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR: Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962 Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K ______________________ – Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham – Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ – Visit the website: https://william-branham.org – Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg  – Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham – Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr – Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books

Transcript

00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my very special guest, Tim Wisniewski, former

00:46pastor of the Pentecostal and the Charismatic Faith.

00:49Tim, it's good to have you back.

00:51I really enjoyed the last conversation we had, and from the comments, a lot of listeners

00:57really enjoyed it.

00:58There were a couple who didn't, but for the most part, it was a lot of positive feedback,

01:03and I think, honestly, what you said resonated with a lot of people.

01:08Even people in the movement could really connect with some of the things you're saying, and

01:12that's really—that's why I do what I do.

01:15If I can start a conversation with people, I really don't care what you believe.

01:19I'm not trying to persuade people either way, but there are huge flaws, and I think the

01:24flaws need to be addressed, even if you're in the Pentecostal faith, there are things

01:28that you really need to just work on, and if we are too good to work on ourselves, then

01:33what good are we?

01:34That's the question I always ask.

01:36But anyway, good to have you back.

01:38For people who aren't aware who you are, maybe if you could reintroduce yourself.

01:42Yeah, good to be back, and I'm glad that was a good episode.

01:48So my name's Timothy.

01:49I am a former pastor of—a Pentecostal pastor, I guess, charismatic pastor.

01:56We are a non-denominational, spirit-filled, charismatic church on the Midwest of the nation.

02:06And, yeah, we believed in, you know, the gifts of the Holy Spirit, five-fold ministry, all

02:10that stuff.

02:12So—and it was, for the most part, a very good experience for me.

02:16As I previously said, I would not be serving the Lord today if it wasn't for that church.

02:24But my views have changed significantly since I—you know, the more I've been in the—these

02:30movements that are sort of an outcropping of the charismatic movement, you know, including

02:36the Word of Faith or the prophetic movements, or the NAR, the Neo-Gnosticism Reformation.

02:47So coming out of that and diving deeper into Scripture, you know, on academic levels, learning

02:54from people who actually have, like, biblical scholarship behind them has helped me tremendously

03:00be able to walk away from certain things that I grew up in, and I really didn't know any

03:05better, but also to discern more, you know, and sort of what is the gospel really about

03:11versus a lot of the other stuff that we see.

03:14And like I said, you know, like, my first episode with you, you know, it was not meant

03:19to offend anyone, but there were some things, you know, that just happened.

03:24It's part of my story, and it is what it is, and it is what it isn't as well.

03:29Absolutely.

03:30You know, I've come to the conclusion that if people are unwilling to look at things that

03:34make them critically think, and they believe that the things that challenge their faith

03:39are of the devil, I'm not certain that they really have faith in what they believe.

03:44Because if you believe something truly, you'll stand behind it, you know the facts, you know

03:49if it's biblical, you know what the Bible says about it, and you'll stand for it.

03:53The problem is a lot of these movements developed off of things that people were teaching that

03:59were between the lines of the Bible, and they use all of these varieties of what they call

04:04proof text, but essentially it's going through and snipping verses out from here and there

04:08and making this witch's brew of doctrine.

04:11And the problem is it's too difficult to defend, because to defend it, you have to tell everybody

04:18each little verse that you've taken out of context, and then convince them that those

04:22verses should be out of their context.

04:24So, I've come to the conclusion that a lot of people who are unwilling to examine what

04:30they believe, it's just simply because it's, number one, too hard to talk to other people,

04:34but number two, they kind of question it themselves.

04:37Yeah, I would agree with that.

04:40One of the things I think that differentiated our church from a lot of the other in sort of

04:45the scene, the charismatic scene, was that our pastor did have a strong emphasis on reading

04:51scripture. Now, whatever lens that may have been from, it still helped us to really dive

04:59into it, and, you know, you can only dive into scripture for so long before you really

05:05have to start asking questions about everything else. You know, and I came to the conclusion

05:09very quickly that Jesus didn't share all my opinions about him, and as I started to get

05:14into biblical scholarship and learning from people that, you know, spent the better part

05:20of their life and careers, really studying, you know, the source text and all this stuff,

05:26like, it challenged me a lot. It challenged my spirit-filled Word of Faith background,

05:32and at first, I was very defensive. I remember, like, having, like, I kind of recoiled, you know,

05:38listening to some of these doctors speak, and I'm like, no, no, well, you know, you just don't

05:43have enough faith. Like, I had these reflexes that I didn't even realize they were just trained

05:48in me, and it was like a muscle spasm almost, and then I had to come to the conclusion, okay,

05:54but does this hold up against the Word of God? And the more and more I looked, the more I

06:00had

06:00to lay down, and what I found was actually something quite beautiful, because the more

06:05I was able to lay down, the more freedom I found that I actually had, the more freedom

06:10I had to view Christianity and Jesus and Scripture and the beauty that it really is, and the grace

06:21and the love and the compassion that's really there, you know, I found that I had quite an

06:30arrogance that I didn't realize I had from being in, like, a Word of Faith church, because

06:35we would see other churches, and we'd be like, oh, that's a dead church. They don't

06:38have the Spirit of God like we do, you know, and whether that was taught, I can't recall.

06:44I don't think it was, I know that phrase had been thrown around, like, it's a dead church

06:48or a dead religion, or a legalistic, it's a legalistic church, which is funny, because

06:53we actually had our own version of legalism, which we didn't even realize, and when, the more

07:00I was able to shed that stuff, and this has taken years, you know, I was a part of this

07:05community for the better part of 20 years, probably the better part of 35, because I

07:09was really born into it, so, and I'm pushing 50 now, but, so the more I was able to shed

07:17over time and process down, well, this isn't really necessary, or this doesn't really jive

07:22with what we see, and where's Jesus in this? You know, where is Jesus in this stuff, and

07:29is there a prophetic movement in Scripture? I don't even think, like, there's prophetic

07:33moments, but there's no movement. There's no movement that I've ever seen in Scripture.

07:39You know, I like how you said that, reflex. I was reading through the comments today. I

07:43read the comments from time to time, and I get some self-improvement from people who give

07:48me some very negative feedback, but one of the things that I was starting to notice, people

07:53were saying that I was calm, I was gentle, I was humble, and I got to thinking, you

07:58know, you really didn't know me back when I was in this, because I had those same

08:04reflexes. We were rude. We were crude. We were, whenever somebody would challenge our

08:10faith, our response wasn't to find out, well, wait a minute, are they right? Our

08:15response was immediately to attack, and I was wired that way. I was a ball of fire, man.

08:20I would not consider myself meek or humble or gentle or any of these things, but

08:26ironically, the fruits of the Spirit include those, and if you truly have the Spirit of

08:32God, and you believe that the Bible tells you what the fruits of the Spirit are, this

08:37is how you will act. Once that hit me, I started to think back to all of the ministers

08:44that I knew in the message, and I knew Pentecostal people who were connected to the

08:49message. I knew a wide variety of people, and I got to thinking about the way that they

08:54behaved whenever they were either uncomfortable or they were challenged, and you did not see

09:00the fruits of the Spirit displayed. You saw something entirely differently, and that's

09:05whenever I first began to question, is this really a movement by God? What they're calling

09:10the gifts of the Spirit, yes, that may be. I'm not going to really say that it isn't,

09:15but what about the other attributes of the Spirit? If they don't display that, can I

09:20really say that it's of God?

09:22Yeah. Yeah, I think there's like an unwritten elitism in sort of this, the context of these

09:30movements, especially like a word of faith, right? Because you believe that you've somehow

09:35gotten, you know, the full revelation of Scripture, right? Because of the power, you know,

09:39the baptism or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is how we would refer to it. So, all of a

09:45sudden,

09:45you've got this greater, you know, like, and the other churches aren't necessarily,

09:50you know, unsaved or whatever, but, you know, they quite haven't arrived yet, you know? And

09:57so, we would, at least I would, and it was unconscious, you know, like, I didn't realize,

10:05you know, where it came from or what it was or that I was even doing it until years later,

10:11you know, like, like hearing myself or hearing somebody else think about, you know, talk about

10:16some things or hearing myself talk about certain things or remembering an instance, you know, like,

10:22God's been very gracious to me, but there was, there's also been, been points in my life where

10:28I feel like God has like, hey, he brought back to my remembrance something I had said or done

10:33that was outside of love, it was outside of whatever, it was, it was a part of, you know,

10:40this doctrine. And I really had to, to take ownership of it. I cannot tell you how many people,

10:47you know, that I formerly pastored that I called up or that I hit up an instant messenger and had

10:52to ask for their forgiveness. It's, it's been a number of them. You know, most of them are really

10:58cool. They're like, hey, you know, like, you know, don't worry about it, dude. You know, we were all

11:02young back then or, or this or this or that. And, and it breaks my heart because a lot of

11:06them aren't

11:07serving the Lord anymore. You know, and I have to wonder, like, is it because of, because of this

11:12or is it just because life, you know, like I went away for a little bit, kind of came back.

11:16So I don't

11:17know. Yeah. Every person has a journey. And that's one of the other things, the fruits of the spirit

11:22for people who are on life's journey. I remember listening to people being attacked from the

11:27pulpit because they had quote unquote, gone astray. They were wandering souls, whatever,

11:32whatever's the loaded language that they used. And I, it never really clicked until after I left

11:39and I started noticing that some of the people who leave the faith are really hurting. It's not that

11:45they even want to, they are really hurting. And then I came, I came to knowledge that there were

11:52leaders in the movement that I was in who were aware how bad some of these people were hurting.

11:57And then I would sit and listen and on Sunday service, just being attacked, you know, these

12:02people. And I got to thinking, that's not how God would, that's not what Jesus did to the prostitutes

12:08and sinners that he was with. And they were on their life's journey. So I, I've come to the

12:14conclusion that when people quote unquote, leave the faith and become atheist, they're not really

12:20doing that so much. They're breaking down and tearing down the false God that had been planted

12:24in their heads. And I don't, even though I use the phrase deconstruction often, it's not really that

12:30so much. It is going and smashing the idols that are inside of our heads. Yeah, I would definitely

12:35agree with that. And you know, to further, to further clarify my last statement, like the, the things

12:40that happen to your cult, I've seen that. I've seen preachers rallying against individuals or

12:50alluding to them. And everybody knew, right? Everybody knew who you're talking about because

12:55they just left the church or whatever it was. And that didn't really happen in, in Pastor

13:02Hoban's church, the church in the Word that I was part of. That did happen in my previous

13:07church. That's one of the reasons why I left that church. I remember specifically, I brought

13:12a friend in, this young girl who I was just really good friends with. And I, we kind of

13:17had this church picnic deal. And I was like, oh man, let's like that, you know, she'll get

13:21saved. She was a Mormon gal and you know, I wanted her, I wanted her to get saved. And

13:29by the end of the picnic, I was so embarrassed. And so like, oh no, like, I didn't realize how

13:35harsh you were, but she kept looking at me, you know, like, and Mormons, like, say what

13:40you want about what they believe. They're genuinely nice people. Like for the most, like, it's just

13:44part of their, I don't know, their, their, their attitude or the way they carry themselves.

13:51And she was just like, you know, what did I, what did I get into? And, and that, I was

13:57like, oh, maybe this isn't as, you know, maybe this isn't as cool as I thought it was,

14:01or as, as nice as I thought it was, because I was more concerned about like how right we

14:06were rather than, you know, like, again, the fruits of the spirit, right? And, and I farmed,

14:13you know, we went from the big city to farming and, and I learned after a while, you know,

14:17that fruit takes time. It takes time to, to nurture and to culture and to, and to, you

14:23have to have good soil, right? And so fruit's not just like, oh, you get saved or, you know,

14:29you plant the seed and all of a sudden, boom, you got fruit, you know, but kind of the way

14:33it is in, in some of these belief systems is, oh, you got baptized in the Holy Spirit,

14:38you can't do anything wrong, you know, and it's, it's a slippery slope.

14:43It is. And I was thinking as you were talking, there's also a lot of political aspects to

14:49this. So you're talking about the Mormons and the same thing happened to me with Jehovah's

14:55Witness. You hear ministers who will kind of, I don't know what the word is, they will

15:01look at them differently as though they are fertile ground that could be recruited into

15:06what we came from. And yet they would say, you know, they're in a religion that we don't

15:11believe in. They're just misguided, they're misled. And so you would, you'd be friendly

15:17towards those people. But what about the people of Islam? You would look at them entirely

15:23differently. You, I know people who would attack Islamic people. I have, I have Islamic

15:29neighbors, and whenever they moved in here, I'm not going to lie, because of my indoctrination,

15:33I was just, I was beside myself. Oh my gosh, this is, this is the enemy. And I got to

15:40know

15:40them, and they believe in the God of Abraham. They don't believe in the, you know, in Christ,

15:45obviously. But I get to thinking, what is the difference? If somebody has not yet,

15:53come to know Jesus, as you know, in the Bible, would you not want to help them know Jesus?

15:59Would you not want to go after them and go after the, the one lost sheep, you know, leave

16:04the 99 to find that one lost sheep? And it had become a political issue. We, we did not

16:10go after Islamic people because of this. What's interesting is, when I was in a cult, I knew

16:15about other cults. And I, I thought they were recruitment territory. The funny part about that

16:21is, we never looked at denominations that way. We never really went after people who

16:26were Baptists or Methodists. It was always the cult people, which is a little bit odd

16:30when I think about it.

16:31Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, especially with like, the political climate and culture,

16:36especially like the early 2000s, you know, after 9-11 happened. And, you know, it's, without

16:45getting into a whole thing, because we can talk, you know, for days about Christian nationalism,

16:49this and that, but I, we were, I gotta watch my words here. So, IHOP was very big into this

17:02Islamophobia thing, right? It was part of their end time worldview. So, we got this,

17:07me and a group of friends, my, my, or my wife, we, we got this big, it was called the

17:12Omega

17:12Code. It was like this 20 CD DVD set of Mike Bickle just preaching on the end times. It

17:19was all about, you know, how Islam was the mark of the beast and blah, blah, blah, because

17:22it fit that whole paradigm, right? Prior to that, it was communist. Prior to that, it

17:28was Nazis. Prior to that, you know, whatever. Like, it's just pick your point in history.

17:32And you got, you know, you can find that common enemy. And so, we watch it with our friends,

17:38like, oh man, you know, this is, this is wild. You know, Mike's got such insight on it. We

17:41got David Slyker's book, End Time Simplified. Like, you talk to any scholar, like, what are

17:47you talking about, simplified? You know, they could have 10 scholars in a room on Revelation

17:52and they'll all disagree, you know? But, but we thought, you know, hey, you know, they're

17:57praying 24 hours a day, seven days a week. They gotta have the right revelation.

17:59Yeah. So, we, we would watch this, this thing and we would dedicate our Wednesday nights

18:05to it or whatever with just a small group of friends. And it was interesting because

18:09I started like, I was like, all right, well, we're into Revelation a lot. What about, what

18:14about Abraham, right? Because Islam's an Abrahamic religion. And lo and behold, Genesis tells me

18:22that God made a way for Ishmael to survive and tells him he's going to be a great nation

18:27and all this stuff. I said, wait a minute. God made a way for Ishmael. He made a way

18:32for Islam. So, he must have a plan of redemption for Ishmael. And that, like, that was like

18:40paradise shaking to me. I'm like, no, they're the enemy. They're the beast. They're killing

18:44Christians in the street. You know, forget all the other countries that are doing the same

18:47thing. And I had to really reckon some, some ideologies when it came to that stuff.

18:54Darrell Bock I'm laughing because I've actually not

18:56went there yet in the podcast, but I remember reading that passage and thinking, oh, no, what

19:01if we were wrong? And the problem is, if you even mention it, like, because I mentioned Islam,

19:09I'm going to have hate mail. That's just the way this works. But you're right. One of the

19:15thoughts that hit me, as soon as I left the high control group, actually, and this is

19:19unrelated to even Branhamism. This is just the Pentecostal charismatic faith in general.

19:24You're so, you're so much in a box. And I'm not saying that it's wrong. I'm not saying

19:29that all of it's bad. You know, don't, don't get me wrong. But you are in a box when you're

19:34in that type of mentality. And it's very difficult to see outside of the box. And you believe because

19:41of, actually, I think I could tie this more even to word of faith. In Branhamism, it was

19:46called the spoken word. You had the revelation. You had the things of God. Well, you believed

19:52that God's plan was your plan. And somebody else's journey, you believed that God couldn't

19:59have a different plan for them. And so I got to thinking of all the different religions.

20:03And oh, my gosh, what if God was an all powerful, like the all seeing general who knew how to

20:10progress everything through time. And the thought hit me, I started reading, I was reading

20:15the New Testament and said, for God so loved the whole world. And suddenly that hit me,

20:21the whole world, not just our little group. And we were granted, we were in an elitist high

20:26control group. So our view of what that world meant was literally just this little tiny group

20:33of people that we were in. I left it and that expanded to, well, so God loved the Christians

20:38that are in denominational faith and not the ones who are in the cults. And then I realized,

20:44well, that's not what it says. And the more you expand it, the more questions are raised.

20:49And I'm not saying that I even have answers to it, but I had the freedom to think that way.

20:55And I never had the freedom while I was in a group that was literally telling me that what

21:00I believe must be inside the box.

21:02Yeah. There's a, it kind of reminds you sometimes, you don't know it, you don't know it either. You

21:08know, like, like, again, like we had such beautiful times in that church, in that body, in that,

21:15that non-denominational arena of charismaticism. And there was great times of just fellowship and

21:24growth, you know, amongst, amongst the people that were there and they were dedicated to the vision

21:29and the mission of the church, you know, and getting behind, you know, these things.

21:35And there were, there was, there was beautiful times in that, but it also kind of reminds me,

21:40I remember I worked several jobs, um, during this time, you know, just to be able to do the ministry.

21:47You know, I worked two to three jobs sometimes. I'm telling them what I did. And, and, um,

21:51um, but they were always for Christians. So at, at one point I finally kind of stepped out and, um,

21:59and just kind of entered back into the secular realm. And I, I didn't realize how insulated I had

22:06been in my, my thought patterns, because I'm like, these people are awesome. Like they're beautiful

22:12people. Like, yeah, they might not know God, but these are the people who were called to love.

22:19These are the people who were called to like go out. And, and I remember it just like this,

22:23this huge shift inside of my heart. Like I didn't realize like how far away I, I was from that,

22:29how far away I was. Cause you know, because we had, whether you liked it or not, there was this

22:34idea

22:34of the worldly person and the spiritual person or the heavenly man, right? The secular realm that was

22:40always, you know, pagan inspired. It was satanic. It was always trying to, you know, get you. There's

22:45this, there's this weird, always this like, sort of like this end times, like big evil battle thing

22:51going on. So you're always like looking around for it. Like, well, is this person, you know,

22:55controlled by Satan? Is this person whatever? And some of that might've been from my mom. She was,

23:00she was the quintessential church lady from Saturday Night Live. That's the devil. That's the devil.

23:05And I just grew up with that, but it was really easy. It was easy and

23:10convenient to impose that onto everyone else. While being in this insulated environment,

23:15it was kind of like prison, right? A lot of people get saved in prison because they can't

23:19really do anything else. And then when they get out, everything falls apart. And I kind of found

23:26it was something, some of that didn't all fall apart for me, but like, man, I tell you,

23:32probably one of the best things I ever did was going back into work into the secular realm.

23:35And it really just taught me how to love people.

23:38Yeah. I've often thought the same. Often you hear ministers who are preaching to the lost,

23:45which that's what a minister should do, but they're so out of touch with what the lost believe or think

23:51or do and say these days that you hear it and you're like, well, that might've applied back when

23:57you were a teenager in the forties and fifties, but that's not the way people think today. And see,

24:02I never had that problem because working, I've always worked in the public. I've always

24:08connected with people. I never really made friends because of the elitist mentality that we had.

24:14But while I was at work, I was very close to the people at work. I had, I had buddies

24:18at work,

24:19right? So I knew the way they live, think some of the, some of them were atheists. I've had Buddhist

24:23friends, Muslim friends, Hindu friends. And when you learn how people think, act and behave,

24:30and then you go hear a sermon where they're condemning the sin of the sinner and it doesn't

24:36really match the sinner. I remember thinking, well, wait a minute, this, that's not quite right, man.

24:43And there are some religions that, what's a good example, in Amish communities, some Amish

24:49communities allow their, I think it's late teens, to go out among the English for a period of time.

24:55And it's not so that they can go wild or anything like this, but they go out among the people,

25:00the very people that they would be preaching are lost and we would like to save. They're learning

25:05their ways. And while there's a whole lot about the Amish that I'm going to say I'm not in quite

25:11in agreement with it, it sounds a lot like a cult. That one aspect I kind of agree with. I

25:17think if

25:18you're a minister and you're trying to reach the lost, you need to at least know what the lost act

25:23like, behave like, what they think like, you know. Learn the people that is your target demographic.

25:29Yeah, without making them targets.

25:33Sorry. Yeah, it's called like Spreckenridge or something like that. Like I know what you're

25:38talking about, yeah. It's kind of like they can go out and learn. Some of it is to, I think,

25:43depending on what sect you're from, like you can kind of go sow your wild oats and decide if you

25:47want

25:48to or not, you know, stay in that realm or come back. There's a little bit to it. But it's

25:53not as,

25:53like some religions, you know, you go out and you're just shunned. That's it, you're done,

25:57you know, like the Jehovah's Witnesses are like that. There's a lot of shunning that goes on there.

26:02But there's just so much, I mean, there's so much, you know, you could, we could go any,

26:07any number of directions with that stuff. But it's, it's again, like,

26:13seeking out, what does, what does, what does the Bible actually say? Who, who was Jesus to these

26:18people, right? To Zacchaeus, to, to these, you know, Zacchaeus was the worst of, of the, of the Jews

26:25because of what he was doing, you know? And I can't imagine what that did to the other disciples,

26:33like how that just wrecked all their paradigms. Because, and this, you know, their Messiah,

26:39who fits all the Messianic profiles, you know, goes, hey man, let's go have dinner.

26:47I think about that stuff a lot. It's like, I could, I could, I would not have done that.

26:51I know I wouldn't have. I would have been like this little jerk, you know, this little dude

26:56who's wrecking our freaking community. Like, dude, I would have been, I know it. I know I would have.

27:02Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started or how the progression of

27:06modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign, charismatic and other fringe movements

27:12into the New Apostolic Reformation? You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's

27:19website, william-branham.org. On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research

27:26of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper,

27:33audio, and digital versions of each book. You can also find resources and documentation on various

27:40people and topics related to those movements. If you want to contribute to the cause, you can

27:46support the podcast by clicking the contribute button at the top. And as always, be sure to like

27:51and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or watching. On behalf of William

27:57Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support. So before we started recording,

28:03you're showing me some of the books. And interestingly, I have some of the books in my

28:07library. But if you understand the trail of history behind some of this theology, Word of Faith makes

28:16sense how it developed. I'm not going to say that it's right, I'm not going to say it's correct, but

28:20I understand how they got from point A to point B. And it's like a conversation I actually had earlier

28:26today, I was talking to somebody, you can take a doctrine that is just slightly a twisting or

28:33slightly extra biblical, read between the lines of this verse, you can take one doctrine. And in its

28:39inception, it sounds good, it may not even be destructive. But then what happens is doctrines

28:46are built on top of that. And the doctrines are built on top of those. And eventually, what you have

28:51is a movement. That's how a movement starts, right? So the Word of Faith turned into a movement.

28:56And so many of the things that have evolved from that movement, I think, I can't say directly caused

29:04the problems that we have in New Apostolic Reformation. But I can say that they strongly

29:08contributed to it. The biggest of which Branham called it his spoken word, Kenneth Hagin called it

29:13the rhema. It's the idea that God can speak new scripture through your mouth to the people that you're

29:19listening to. And then you have to trust that the guy is actually speaking with the words of God.

29:25And what I found out, I started going back through some of Branham's quote-unquote spoken word,

29:30he's saying things that are polar opposite of what Jesus said. So, if people are allowed to critically

29:36think, now you look at this and you wonder, well, if God's not the one speaking, and it's actually the

29:42human being who's just full of himself.

29:44Jeff Lerner Contributed, I think, is the right word. It's definitely contributed,

29:47because again, you know, those movements, they're based on a confirmation bias of,

29:53you know, of, of certain events that are somehow affirming your belief system. And so now you go,

30:00okay, this is confirmation, or this is, this is, you know, this is God affirming this. So now I'm

30:05going to act upon it. Um, and then before you know it, you've got this movement that, that is,

30:14I, you know, I just listened to, uh, your, your episode about how, uh,

30:19everything kind of got carried away, you know, like the assemblies of God had to come

30:23and they had to be like, Hey guys, you know, and they kind of gave out this big, vague statement,

30:27but,

30:29but there's, but it was, it was almost too late at that point. And, and, and, and it was because

30:35these certain principles, and I think you're a hundred percent right on that. It was, it was just

30:39rebranded, you know, they just took one facade, removed it, put up another one and, and it allowed

30:46them to continue doing what they were doing and continues to spread this thing. There's a seduction

30:50in it. There's a seduction in it, in, in a, in a few different things, you know, in, in power

30:56and

30:56feeling like you've got this special revelation that empowers you to, to do supernatural and special

31:05things. And when those things happen, that is an affirmation and a confirmation that you're in the

31:12right or that you're on the right path. Right. And then you have, you know, backing that up is that

31:19residual monetary gain that people don't, people don't understand like how much money is, how much

31:26revenue is produced from CDs, from the speaking tapes, from just even these events. And the

31:34people that go to these events are happy to do it. They see it as an act of faith. I

31:38remember taking

31:38my shirt off at a, at a, at a one thing conference for, you know, basically IHOP's youth, big youth

31:45conference every year. It's cause it's all I had. I gave all the money in my pocket, all the shirt

31:50off

31:50my own back was my favorite shirt, but I was like, man, you know, this is an idol. I got

31:54to lay this

31:54thing down and, and give to some, there's somebody in this city, you know, who needs a new shirt,

31:59right. Or who needs a shirt. And, and I was happy to do it. And there's, there's, you know,

32:04and the Bible tells us, you know, that, you know, that God will repay. Sure. I'm not for want in

32:10my

32:10life, but, but the emotionalism in the way, in the, in the, the way in which that was brought to

32:17us

32:18is, is the question. And what do they do with this stuff? You know, for all, for all I know,

32:23they just, they too, cause I wasn't the only one dropping clothes, you know, like people,

32:27they put a, throw it all in a dumpster, you know, no idea. Uh, and just taking the cash,

32:34like, but, but I, what fruit came out of it? And they were, they're making tons of money in CD

32:39sales. They had their own record label, you know, um, IHOP data was called Forerunner Music.

32:44And at the time, you know, you had a Hillsong and you had Forerunner Music. Those are the ones

32:49that were producing the most spirit filled, powerful music at that, in that era. And

32:56everybody wanted to, to be like that. Every musician, I, you know, and that's probably

33:00one of the reasons why I was, I mean, I went to IHOP because on a worship trip, you know,

33:05so we wanted to learn how to worship like them.

33:07You know, you're talking about your shirt being an idol. That's actually one of the problems

33:11that I have with thinking inside that box. I remember sermon after sermon talking about

33:16how if you love baseball too much, that's your idol. Yes, maybe that's true, but the

33:22way that they push it so hard from behind the pulpits, what happens is you have a bunch

33:26of kids or teenagers who really want to play baseball, who are suddenly thinking, wait a

33:31minute, is that an idol? I shouldn't be doing that. Whenever I left the movement, I started

33:36reading the ESV Bible. The language, just the way that it is written, I can understand it

33:42pretty well over the KJV. The Colossians 2, hit me like a brick wall. Let no one disqualify

33:48you insisting on asceticism and worship of angels.

33:51That's the verse I was just going to do. Literally, that's the verse.

33:55Going on in detail about visions, puffed up with their sensuous mind. This actually describes

34:00the movement. But the funny part is, I didn't understand any part of this whenever I first

34:06read it in ESV. And I remember, I went and I sat down with, I think it was lunch with

34:12the pastors one day, and I was going through this, having them explain to me what all of

34:16this meant. And I had never, I'd heard the word asceticism, but I associated it with the

34:22people, like in the movies who are beating themselves, the ascetics who are beating themselves,

34:26right? I never thought that this is something that you could do in the Pentecostal holiness

34:30faith. But when they explained what the word meant, I'm like, oh my gosh, this is actually

34:35attacking me to the core.

34:37Yes, yes. What chapter and verse again is that? I knew it was in Colossians.

34:41It's Colossians 2, I think it's verse 18.

34:44Verse 18. Let's read that again. Let no one disqualify you insisting on asceticism and the

34:50worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous

34:57mind. I want to stop right there because that was a kick in the gut when I read that. Wait

35:02a

35:02minute. You can be operating in the spirit and the only thing that's benefiting is your sensual

35:09man, right? Your flesh man. And I was like, whoa, there's no like, you know, if I'm spirit

35:17filled and I got the power of the Holy Spirit in me, but my flesh is still being gratified and

35:23it's not really doing anything else. Like, I was like, I didn't even know it was possible.

35:28So I read that too and it was a real kick in the gut. Worship of angels, right? Going on

35:34in

35:34detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind and not holding fast to

35:43his head from whom the whole body nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments

35:47grow with a growth that is from God. So yeah, man, that's because I was trying to remember that

35:56verse even this afternoon because I knew we were going to have this discussion and I'm like,

36:01I would see this stuff and people, you know, and man, some of the visions, like if the more

36:07grandiose it was, you know, the more realistic it was, you know, we had a, we had a thing where

36:13for a little while and this wasn't in our church, but it was in these prophetic conferences

36:18where like, cause I talked about the gemstones, but it was feathers, right? There was this weird

36:24aspect of like, uh, if you went to the second heaven and you, I don't know, you rubbed an

36:29angel or something like that, like you could come back with a feather and, and these were

36:34like these, these were angelic feathers, right? Forget that there's very little about angels

36:41having feathers like in scripture. And, um, and so I remember like, that was like, some

36:47of us thought that that was like a mark that you'd made it, you know, you made it to the

36:51third heaven. You'd come back with this feather and you always ask what happened to it. Well,

36:54after three days or whatever, it dissolved, you know, there was always something like that.

36:58And I swear I saw one at, at that conference I went to with angels, something it like manifested

37:05in front of me, dropped onto the ground, like melted. Could it have been dust from the balcony

37:09above me again? Could it have been? But I, I was digging to the carpet looking for that

37:13thing. I was like, what the heck was that? But yeah, but it, it's interesting because

37:17even though you're having these spiritual, supernatural, preternatural experiences, you're

37:22basing them on how the Holy Spirit is moving in a room or in your movement or through the

37:26sermon, there's a possibility it's still only benefiting your flesh and not actually doing

37:33anything good for you.

37:34I actually go back to that verse quite a bit because at the end of it, it says, grows

37:39with a growth that is from God. But if you read this passage, it doesn't really say that

37:45the visions are wrong. It doesn't say they're bad even. It doesn't say that any part of it

37:49is bad, but it's really suggesting that if you focus so heavily upon it, you're going

37:55to grow from a growth that's not of God. In other words, don't, and it starts, the whole

38:00passage starts with verse 16, let no one pass judgment on you, right? Let no one disqualify

38:06you. So I got to thinking about that. We disqualified anybody who did not believe our visions, did

38:13not believe these claims of angels. And whether the angels were right or wrong, whether the

38:18visions were right or wrong, it turned into a movement. And I can tell you that the movement

38:23I came out was clearly not of God.

38:25I go back and forth because I don't know if I would have stayed in church, right, if it

38:30wasn't for the charismatic movement and the church that I got involved in. I don't know

38:35that I would have. But I do remember even after a certain amount of time being in that body,

38:44being in that church, I would hear a gospel message at another church or something, and I'd

38:49be like, oh, this again? You know, like, oh, Jesus died? Everybody knows Jesus died for

38:56your sins, you know? It was almost like, don't you know there's so much more? God forbid!

39:02You know, like, the grace and the amazingness of the sacrifice of the king of the universe,

39:09you know, like, condescending to be a family with me again the way I was intended to be.

39:15Like, I had such a terrible perspective from, you know, towards the end of it, like, oh, this is

39:22so boring and so whatever, you know, don't you know there's deeper and greater revelations? And

39:27I ended up, I found out I was the one that had the low view of scripture because I was

39:31boxing God

39:32and boxing my belief system, my worldview, into this little tiny supernatural paradigm, you know,

39:38that that was really being used as a weapon or a tool for my own gratification, more than the depth

39:48of scripture and the depth of the finished work of Christ and the depth of his love for everyone.

39:54And I am so grateful that I'm not in that anymore. I'm grateful for those times. I'm grateful for

40:01for the expression of, yeah, there is more. There's more than just, like, some legalism or some,

40:07you know, just cold, hard faith. But even that can be reduced to the same thing.

40:17Well, and think about the children and young adults who are in this. I was 37 years old whenever we

40:23left

40:24the High Demand Group. We went to a denominational church and they asked me, what is the gospel?

40:31And I didn't know how to answer him. I probably had heard it. I know I had read it. I'd

40:36read my

40:36Bible. But I did not know how to answer him because we had packed so much into what was the

40:42gospel.

40:42The gospel is that Jesus died for the sins of the world. He died on the cross and he rose

40:48again.

40:48We can be saved. But there was so much more to it. Did you know that he also died for

40:52our healing?

40:53Did you know that he also died for this? And we would pack so many things into it. The gospel

40:57had become so complicated in my head. I did not know what it was. So they asked me the question

41:03and I fumbled around. He invited me to come to a class. I think I've mentioned this on the podcast.

41:08He handed me this little tiny book and I thought there's no way you can describe the gospel in this

41:13little tiny book. And sure enough, he did. And I felt so low because that was the basic core of

41:20Christianity and I did not know it. Every single adult who is in a movement that doesn't preach

41:27the gospel every Sunday risks their children growing up and not learning the gospel.

41:34And I'm turning 50. I turned 50 in January. Now that I'm 50, my memory is not as good as

41:40it was.

41:41And so if you continue to go every Sunday, I think there's a large number of people that would just

41:46simply forget what the gospel is if you don't hear it. And you read through the Bible, they gathered

41:51together to hear the gospel. They didn't gather together to hear, oh, did you know that you can

41:57have details of visions and angels and all of these other things? What it ends up to be, I realized

42:03that

42:03we were in a Colossians 2 religion. We simply had turned into that. It had bypassed the gospel. It had

42:11long forgotten the gospel. It may have originally, maybe it had it in the beginning. I don't know.

42:16I'm not going to say it didn't. But as far back in history as I could go, I couldn't find

42:20them really

42:21focusing on it. They always focused on the extra things. Yeah, the more I learn about randomism,

42:26thanks to you, and Freeman, the more stunned I am. To be honest, the idea that this guy is the

42:42final

42:42apostle or prophet or whatever, the mouthpiece of God, I mean, it's not even, there's no even like an

42:51Old Testament context for that. You know, even Moses wasn't, you know, he just wasn't. And if

42:58you read through Moses or the Exodus account, there's a few times where God was just ready

43:06to end Moses. He's just like, look, dude, I'm not going to tell you again, man. And that's not how

43:14a lot of people look at Moses, you know, or a lot of people look at these prophets or these

43:18apostles

43:19or whatever. And you see, you see the abuses, you know, you guys have been covered. I mean,

43:26the Todd White thing, the Sean Boltz thing, you know, like I saw Sean Boltz speak. I had a friend,

43:31one of my friends, their family hosted him, I don't know how many times because they had a house of

43:35prayer in Chicago. And, and, and Boltz was out there all the time. And, and, you know, he,

43:42he considered Sean a friend and, and the hurt, um, from this is, is beyond tremendous. You know,

43:51the, the, uh, I, I don't want to, I don't want to think about it. I really, I really don't

43:58want

43:58to think about it. And to know, it's, it's so weird how, like, you know, my little tiny corner of

44:07the

44:07universe, you know, kind of met so many of these people, you know, when, when I met Mike Bickle,

44:14we used to call him old scrunchie face. Cause he had this, just this big scrunchie smile.

44:18And, um, and he just looked like, you know, Oh, you know, just this, this kind of Papa Mike,

44:24you know, Papa Mike. And what's come out that didn't happen overnight. That's been happening for

44:31decades. When I hugged Mike and wept with him, you know, during a conference, he was doing this

44:39stuff. And that's the stuff that, uh, that's the stuff that gets to me. That's the stuff that,

44:48that not just breaks my heart, but boils my flesh. These people have no fear of God.

44:57God, they have no fear of God. They can't. Sorry. I get upset too. You know, people don't

45:07realize how connected all of this is. I, we haven't got there yet with Cheno, but when we're,

45:14we're going to get there after Hobart Freeman died and the Freeman cult sort of, they didn't

45:20fully disband, but some of them actually went to IHOP KC because it is so connected.

45:26The theology is that not that much different. It is modernized. It's not that much different.

45:31I have friends who were, I guess you would say they were in a splinter group of randomism

45:36and they started getting enticed by Bethel because Bethel is so similar. It it's new and refreshing,

45:42but it's the same thing, just rebranded basically. And I don't want rebranded nonsense. And I hate to

45:50say it, but like that, but that's really what it is to me now. It is a Colossians two religion.

45:55You're focusing on things that you're not supposed to focus on. Maybe they're right.

45:59Maybe they're wrong. I'm not going to say that your visions are incorrect, but I, well,

46:04I take it back. There are a few visions that I've looked up and no, this was completely false.

46:08This was not a vision from God, but the ones that are even questionable, what does it matter?

46:13You know, if you're focusing on that, you're focusing on the wrong thing.

46:17Absolutely. I actually had a friend who was a part of IHOP. They went from our church there and,

46:22and our, our pastor, um, and our worship leaders, like, I don't think you're supposed to go,

46:27but so, you know, whether that was true or not, I don't know. They went on, they, they ended up

46:33getting involved with, um, a world famous individual. They're a performer. They toured the

46:38world and stuff. This, this individual's mother went to one of the IHOP prayer rooms and was in the

46:42prophecy room. And my friend actually prophesied over her and I think her son. And later on,

46:47she's like, Hey, will you come and we actually keep an eye out on my son because he's got handlers

46:52and stuff and the enemy's trying to get him, which was kind of a cool thing. But I remember

46:57specifically, they both came back for a period and they say, dude, we want to, we want to have dinner

47:02with you and tell you what God's been doing in our lives or whatever. Like my wife and I were

47:04like,

47:05all right, cool. You know, let's do this. Cause we used to have our own little special prayer group

47:08where we would try and, you know, get words of knowledge and all this stuff. And we were just really

47:13dumb and just trying to seek the Lord. But so we felt safe with each other. So they came back

47:20and

47:20I remember the guy, it was a guy and a girl. Um, the guy specifically just started going on about

47:30these visions he had and how the Lord would speak to him and this and this and that. And I'm

47:33not,

47:34I'm not dismissing any of it, but I remember distinctly thinking to myself, if I had somebody

47:41else here who didn't have our background, who didn't go to the same church. And I wanted to

47:46meet my friend who was kind of an international traveler and a missionary and evangelist or

47:52whatever, who's been working in the secular realm amongst the Hollywood elites. And he was sharing

47:59this stuff. They would have no reference for it whatsoever. It would benefit them in no way

48:06whatsoever. And even some of the stories he was telling me, I was like, dude, like that's great,

48:10but I do not relate, you know, like, and he feels like he's sharing the secret from God with me.

48:17And, and I'm the kind of guy where it's like, all right, Lord, you know, like, what am I supposed

48:20to get out of this? You know, are you, are you trying to say something to me? Is there a

48:23learning

48:24thing in here? And it was really just an experience. And I'm like, dude, I think that was for you.

48:28Like, I think you're meant to just keep that to yourself. And I didn't say it out loud.

48:32I just started thinking about all the things like that, that I'd said to other people.

48:36And I'm like, wait a minute, maybe, maybe God was telling me how to pray for my life. Or for

48:43you

48:43know, but we're always in this like, oh, I, you know, projecting kind of mode. I'm going to project

48:48this out of them. God's given me this revelation, not for me, for somebody else, you know, especially

48:55the convicting ones. But, but I was, but again, you know, and it's like a process of just slowly

49:02peeling the layers back off that onion and being like, you know what, like, you know, I'm, I'm happy

49:06God's moving your life, but I don't really think that applies to anything anymore, you know, or

49:10anybody else but you. And, and that's, that's a hard, kind of hard thing to come to in those moments.

49:18Yeah, exactly. It kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier, the ministers who are preaching

49:24to the lost and are so out of touch with the lost, the message isn't the same. The lost isn't

49:29going

49:29to hear them aren't going to hear them. And I had, interestingly, I had the same kind of person

49:35come to me and they were telling me there, it, it was a, what was it praying in tongues? I

49:41think

49:41he's, this person would give visions by praying in tongues, which that's something I'm completely

49:46unfamiliar with, but it sounded good. It sounded like, yeah, I mean, this guy was excited for it.

49:53He was really emotional. I think he might even shed a tear. And I was thinking, well, that's okay,

49:59I guess for you. But that really doesn't, that doesn't apply to my life at all. Why are you

50:04telling me this? And it just goes back to the focus is in the wrong place. I think, I think

50:10if people

50:10were to focus on the things that matter, the things that would actually help other people,

50:16none of this mess would even exist. You mentioned IHOPKC, all of the scandals and the things that

50:22are happening there. Think if that group had instead just been in touch with the people who were lost,

50:28instead of this intercessory prayer thing, I will never ever understand it. I understand prayer. I

50:35understand, you know, the spiritual things that you think you're doing, but you're not going to reach

50:41the lost in Africa by praying in a room in Kansas City. That's not how, that's just not how this

50:49works,

50:49right? They've, they've lost touch so much that it has become almost like a disconnected video game

50:55where they think they have avatars. If you really think about what this is, that's what they're

50:59trying to do. And they've just lost touch with it. And in the end, for me, it's just, it's another

51:06way of displaying the fruits of a Colossians 2 ministry.

51:10Yeah, I think that's, I think that's fair. And I, spending time, you know, I know their idea,

51:17you know, their Harpenbow method where it comes from. I know the worship, you know, the Davidic worship

51:23from the Old Testament where there was, you know, constant worship and incense going before

51:26the Lord of 24-7. But I had heard, you know, we, we did hear like sermons and I believe

51:33that my

51:33prayers can transcend me, right? Like, I believe that, you know, if like, let's say I'm praying

51:41for you, right? Something's going on. I got to pray for my brother, you know, John Collins,

51:46you know, like, I believe that God hears that. I believe that God honors that. I believe that,

51:50that, that, that can do things in the spirit realm or even in the natural realm. But when

51:56that is like your whole focus, you know, and you think all of a sudden, like it's doing

52:00something and there's been great ministries that came out of IHOP, like Exodus Cry. I mean,

52:05they were one of the first human trafficking ministries that really, I mean, they, they put

52:09an end to Pornhub. I mean, the, the, the things that they were able, they've been able to

52:15accomplish. So there, there's great things. And again, we know this, right? There, you know,

52:22there's great things, great people that come out of all these other ministries, but the

52:26leadership and the focus of what's on it, you know, and I, and I think that Colossians

52:30too is really good. That's so cool that, that, like, that was the verse I was thinking about,

52:34like all, all afternoon. I was like, yeah, I got to remember that because, because I knew,

52:37I knew what it says. I just couldn't remember the reference. So I think I thought it was Galatians.

52:41I always get Galatians clashes. I don't know why. Yeah. And it's kind of funny. Like I said,

52:45my memory is not as good as it used to be, but I have all these computers surrounding me. So

52:49as

52:49you're talking, I can type in the verse and I can find it. And, and, and that's the thing. We

52:53have

52:53the power now through the internet, places like Bible hub, you can learn so much about the Bible

52:59that you couldn't back whenever I was a kid. It changes your, it changes your life. You know,

53:05you can't, if you're sitting in a ministry under a ministry and they're preaching things that are

53:10extra biblical or unbiblical, you have the power to stop it just simply by pulling your phone out

53:15of your pocket. And I, I'm not going to lie. I have said in some new services where the minister

53:21said something, it just didn't sit right. I pulled out my phone and sure enough, I know exactly where

53:26he got it, where he got it wrong because I'm reading the text of the Bible right here. I think

53:31if more people were to do this, we could, we could stop some of the nonsense, but.

53:35Yeah. And I think more and more will. I really do. I have great faith. You know, God's not going

53:40to abandon his people, not going to abandon his church. There's going to, there's going to be some

53:45ugly, we're seeing it, you know, we're, we're seeing some ugly, horrible things being brought to

53:51the light, but there's nothing done in darkness that will not be brought to the light. That's what

53:54the Bible plainly tells us. You look at the history of Israel. I mean, it's, it, or even the history

54:03of humanity. Like God, God is going to expose that out of love and out of goodness, not out

54:09of religious, not out of contempt, not out of whatever, but because he, he, darkness will

54:14not reign, you know? And one of the, when we were talking last time, you were talking,

54:20we were talking about like, you asked me a question about like one of the good resources

54:22and there's a, I don't know if you can see this app right here. It's, it's the Faith Life

54:29Study Bible app. It's from Logos Apologia. So I use this one. I use Bible Hub as well.

54:35Um, but it's got, it's like green. It's got a cross on it. And, um, this has over 2 million,

54:42I believe it's 2 million notations by scholars. So biblical scholars and the network on it is,

54:49is phenomenal. Like you can go in, like, if you're reading like a, a, a part of scripture,

54:54you know, where Paul was preaching, you can click on it and it'll show you where Paul was

54:58when he was, when he was saying those things or when he wrote this thing or the prison.

55:02Really, really cool. Um, it's, uh, Logos Apologia, I believe is the company, but it's called the

55:09Faith Life Study Bible app. And it's, there's a little bit of a cost to it. I think it's $10,

55:15but then you have access to not just even like scholarly notes, but, but notes that other people

55:20have put in. So, but, uh, I get, I can't recommend, recommend that one enough, especially from going,

55:27you know, from, and this is my second spirit filled faith, but life Bible that I got because

55:33I trash, you know, I read it so much, but it's, it's written in a very specific lens. Um,

55:39and so going from, from this to this is, has been very tremendous and helpful for me.

55:45Yeah. I think I've used an earlier version of that app actually. It's, it's pretty good app.

55:49Yeah.

55:50Very good resources. Thank you so much for doing this.

55:52I appreciate it, man. Take care.

55:54Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.

55:57You can find us at william-branham.org. For more about the dark side of the new apostolic

56:02reformation, you can read weaponized religion from Christian identity to the NAR available on Amazon,

56:08Kindle and audible.

56:38And if you want to learn more information, you can have that one that has a beautiful way.

56:39I think that's the right tool is to work together, because I got one unless a lifetime of the traditional

From Word Of Faith To NAR: How Movements Drift From The Gospel | Podcast Episode 575

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