The Five-Fold Ministry: How A Forgotten Idea Fueled The NAR | KCF | IHOPKC | Bob Scott

15 hours ago

John and Bob trace the surprising historical path of the five-fold ministry, examining how a largely functional New Testament concept evolved into a modern authoritarian structure. From early church debates to Edward Irving's restorationism and the rise of end-times revivalism, they explore how apostleship was reframed through mystical experience rather than scriptural grounding.

The discussion follows the thread through restorationist movements, Latter Rain theology, Southern California revivalism, and the eventual labeling of the New Apostolic Reformation. Along the way, they examine how experiential authority, prophetic claims, and cross-pollinated networks shaped a movement that redefined leadership, unity, and power within charismatic Christianity.

00:00 Introduction
08:53 What Qualified Someone To Be an Apostle?
18:15 Ephesians 4 and the “Until” Problem
25:23 Edward Irving and the Return of Apostles
33:43 Why End-Times Theology Needed Hierarchy
38:08 Mike Bickle, Experience, and Embellishment
45:43 Peter Wagner, Fuller, and the Evangelical Crossover
48:13 Cross-Pollination From Dowie to the NAR
53:00 Chuck Smith, Lonnie Frisbee, and the Jesus People
1:02:22 Are There Any Apostles Today?
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
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Transcript

00:00:31Hello, and welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.

00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research

00:00:40at william-branham.org, and with me I have my co-host and friend, Bob Scott, former co-founder

00:00:46of the Kansas City Fellowship and the author of three books.

00:00:49The latest is Some Said They Blundered, Breaking My Decades of Silence on Mike Bickle, the Kansas

00:00:54City Prophets, and the International House of Prayer.

00:00:57Bob, there's so many different themes that I'm going through with all of the different

00:01:01series within my podcast, and it's weird because they all seem to be converging on one aspect

00:01:08or another.

00:01:09What you and I are about to get into is just one of many of these convergences, and I didn't

00:01:15tell you this before we started recording, so I wanted to get your opinion as we go, but

00:01:19we've been diving deeply into just simply the cover-up culture, how it originated, how it

00:01:25developed, how it grew, how it transitioned into the prophetic movement, and now with you

00:01:32I wanted to talk through some of that as it relates to Kansas City Fellowship, and there's

00:01:37one aspect, as you know, that really binds all of this together, and that is this five-fold

00:01:42ministry concept.

00:01:44When I'm talking to anybody, I don't care who it is, who has been indoctrinated with a

00:01:50five-fold ministry, even people who have escaped the movement, they are indoctrinated with this

00:01:56concept of five-fold ministry that doesn't really fit the Bible, but yet it's based off

00:02:02of biblical terms.

00:02:03And they'll get fighting mad.

00:02:05They'll say the book of Ephesians talks about the five-fold ministry, but it doesn't really.

00:02:11It talks about the pastors, apostles, preachers, teachers, et cetera.

00:02:16It's talking basically about this is the church.

00:02:18We're building a church.

00:02:19We're not building an authoritarian hierarchy.

00:02:22But when you come into the late 1800s, early 1900s, you start to get this concept that this

00:02:29is more than just what the Bible is saying.

00:02:31This is an authoritarian structure, and it really laid the groundwork for what would develop

00:02:37into the prophetic movement.

00:02:38And with that groundwork comes a lot of cover-up culture, because some of the faces within that

00:02:45movement aren't really what they say they are.

00:02:47And so with that, I'll bring you in, because I really want to hear your opinion on this.

00:02:53Well, it's a fascinating subject for me, because as you know, I grew up Roman Catholic in Milwaukee,

00:03:01so I was familiar with popes, cardinals, bishops, and priests, right?

00:03:08The only time I ever heard the word apostle was at Mass, when they would read some of the

00:03:17scripture, and they'd call somebody an apostle.

00:03:20But of course, at that point in my life, I would have had no clue what one of those was.

00:03:25It just sounded important, like, you know, it was one of those names, apostle, and I was

00:03:30like, ooh, sounds important, right?

00:03:32You know, then I spent time not even in the church world, and then when I ended up finally

00:03:41coming back in search of a relationship with God, I came through the evangelical door, which

00:03:49again, didn't really talk about this, right?

00:03:53So when I was first headed to Bible school as an 18-year-old with no knowledge of the Bible,

00:04:03reading it for the first time, when I got to the five-fold ministry verse, my initial reaction

00:04:16to it was never hierarchical.

00:04:19It was, in my view, similar to the skill sets you need to build a house or a building, right?

00:04:28And so my brain looked at it, maybe similar to you did, these aren't rankings, right?

00:04:36This isn't like five-star, four-star, three-star, two-star, one-star generals, right?

00:04:41These are skill sets, right?

00:04:43So an apostle to me was like the general contractor.

00:04:46The prophet was like the architect, right?

00:04:49The evangelist was like the real estate guy.

00:04:53You know, the pastor was sort of the carpet, you know, was that kind of a thing.

00:04:57Like, these were skills, various skills that were, or job responsibilities that were given

00:05:07to a group of men to build this thing called the church, which was never a building, right?

00:05:12Even in Paul, when he's talking about, he's not talking about building an institution here,

00:05:18right?

00:05:19He's talking about building people, right?

00:05:22The church is a living being.

00:05:24So this was never, even in his mind, institutional.

00:05:30So that's where, you know, for me, I always was like, well, where did this come from, you know?

00:05:37And so, you know, my brain always goes, well, let's go back to the beginning, okay?

00:05:44So where did this concept of apostle come from, right?

00:05:48Well, you know, I'm sure this is Christianity 101 for a lot of people, but before apostles,

00:05:55they were disciples, right?

00:05:57So you had this group of guys, 12 of them, who were disciples, which in the modern vernacular

00:06:06means they are students, right?

00:06:08Of a rabbi, which means teacher, Jesus.

00:06:12So Jesus has a class of adult males who all happen to have secular jobs, right?

00:06:22So these aren't guys that are in Bible school, they're not in the ministry, they're blue-collar,

00:06:27they're fishermen from an area of the country that's not even super religious.

00:06:34They're 20 miles from Caesarea, which is the epicenter of the Roman activity in that region,

00:06:42right?

00:06:42It's the major port.

00:06:44So there's a big cosmopolitan area.

00:06:45And there's Jesus with his group of guys who basically is homeschooling them, right?

00:06:52In a way.

00:06:54You know, Jewish children didn't really go to public school like we know it.

00:06:58They were tutored, right?

00:06:59They were homeschooled.

00:07:00Well, in this case, now we have adult men.

00:07:02I think the disciples were all about the same age as Jesus was, right?

00:07:06So this wasn't, you know, I mean, there wasn't like an older guy teaching a bunch of young

00:07:12boys.

00:07:13These are peers, right?

00:07:15Then they hang out together.

00:07:18And I don't think they even quite got it because only one of them shows up at the crucifixion,

00:07:25right?

00:07:25And only later do they kind of figure out what's going on.

00:07:28And then suddenly, because they were the, well, there was 11, right?

00:07:34And they replaced Judas with Matthias.

00:07:37So now you're back to 12.

00:07:39But what did they, what was your qualification?

00:07:43You had to be somebody that was directly taught by Jesus, right?

00:07:48So there was a generation one relationship.

00:07:53So to be an apostle meant you were taught by Jesus.

00:07:56Now, this is going to sound heretical, but nonetheless, Paul was a wannabe apostle.

00:08:05I know that sounds terrible because he's the great apostle Paul, but at the time he was

00:08:10a wannabe.

00:08:11He was not part of the 12, right?

00:08:13So how did he justify that he was an apostle?

00:08:18And he did it, interestingly, the same way that the charismatic and Pentecostal guys do it.

00:08:23He had a visitation to the third heavens, right?

00:08:28So that was his credential.

00:08:30Well, I might have not met Jesus in this life, but I went to the third heaven and I met

00:08:37him

00:08:37there and he taught me directly.

00:08:39So I too am an apostle, right?

00:08:42Then after 100 AD, the term just disappears.

00:08:45For centuries, you never hear the word apostle.

00:08:48Because in everybody's mind, it was the original 12 plus Paul.

00:08:53Yeah, it's so interesting to think through that.

00:08:56And it's a little bit liberating, too, because when you're in this type of movement, you can't

00:09:00really think about all of the intricacies of how the religion itself developed.

00:09:05But you're right.

00:09:07The qualifications for being an apostle, even when they chose the books in the Bible, they

00:09:11had this big debate and the qualifications, like you said, you had to have been either

00:09:17one of the original, you had to be with Jesus.

00:09:19And a lot of people don't really think through what that means because the word apostle and

00:09:25the word disciple have been kind of shifted in our language.

00:09:30But it's much like the ancient philosophers.

00:09:32You had disciples of the different ancient philosophers.

00:09:35What is this?

00:09:36Like you said, it's a student.

00:09:37It's somebody who's learning with the intent that they can spread the knowledge, right?

00:09:42So, an apostle is somebody who learns and can spread the knowledge.

00:09:46A disciple is somebody who can spread the knowledge.

00:09:48And then in Christianity, an apostle is somebody who has the direct knowledge because they were

00:09:55there with Jesus.

00:09:56So, it's like it's the super disciple.

00:09:59But in today's world, because of the way that the authoritarian structures have developed,

00:10:06people who are in the movement think of the humans, the apostles, as something greater

00:10:13than a human.

00:10:14I'll never forget one of the churches I attended after leaving the cult.

00:10:18And I really hadn't wrapped my head around that thought yet.

00:10:21But I was listening to the sermon and he said something to the effect, he was talking about

00:10:26a rift between two, between an apostle, the apostle Paul and somebody else.

00:10:31And he says, now, the apostle Paul could have pulled his apostle card and just told him,

00:10:35no, this is the way it's going to be.

00:10:37And I was sitting there thinking when he said it, what he's doing is he's displaying an

00:10:42authoritarian control from Paul to the subject.

00:10:45And I can't remember which one it was, maybe Philemon or something like this.

00:10:49But what he was doing was he was talking about authoritarian control.

00:10:53And it suddenly struck me, that's not really how the Bible is supposed to be viewed.

00:10:57Why is it like this?

00:10:59And now, in the IT world, it's kind of funny because our culture is shifting away from this.

00:11:05Back in the 40s and 50s, even your business model was a very authoritarian model.

00:11:10You had the dictator man who's really over everybody in the company and very domineering,

00:11:17usually A-type personalities.

00:11:19Companies have shifted away from that to a flat level, much like Christianity began.

00:11:24Everybody has a title.

00:11:25Some of the titles may include more money, but it is everybody's equal.

00:11:29Everybody has their experience in their specific field.

00:11:34And it's an agile model, if you're not familiar with this.

00:11:37It's even our culture is shifting away from an authoritarian model.

00:11:42But what's interesting is, if you go back in time and you look at what Jesus was establishing,

00:11:47it was a little bit unique compared to the rest of the world because it was not authoritarian.

00:11:52He did not want this.

00:11:54But yet, the charismatics turned it into this.

00:11:57And it's to the extent you can't even really think about things like you just mentioned with Paul

00:12:02without fear that God's going to smite you down to hell.

00:12:05Well, something I think is important to understand about how the hierarchicalness even got into the early church is,

00:12:15and it's hard to think this through contextually,

00:12:19but we have to remember that even in the first century,

00:12:23probably only one to two percent of the population could even read and write.

00:12:31It's not like our modern world where we're all online because we're educated.

00:12:36We went to school.

00:12:38We learned to read and write.

00:12:39So we're finding out this stuff for ourselves.

00:12:42This is the first century now.

00:12:44People don't read and write.

00:12:46There isn't published materials.

00:12:48So all information is moving by or via word of mouth.

00:12:55So it was important in order to keep the faith rooted in the teachings of Jesus

00:13:03that the guys who sat at Jesus' feet were the ones who were communicating what Jesus taught us.

00:13:11Where this gets interesting to me is that then after they're all dead by 100 A.D.,

00:13:19what you see from 100 A.D. all the way to 300 A.D. is all these various groups,

00:13:25like there's dozens of what we would call sects in Christianity,

00:13:30many of them driven by people who believe they had a revelation from God like Paul,

00:13:36but have deviated or added to or have some different point of view than the early apostles.

00:13:45And so there's really a couple hundred years of chaos within the church world.

00:13:50There is no clear, because the apostles are all dead now, right?

00:13:55There is no authoritative source.

00:14:01There's no source material, as it were.

00:14:03And the few things that have been written are little letters, right?

00:14:08I always, you know, this is a little me A.D.D. in here,

00:14:12but one of the great losses in history, I think, was the burning of the library in Alexandria.

00:14:18Because I would imagine that at that library were probably some original first century manuscripts

00:14:25written, you know, by some of these guys that have been lost, right?

00:14:29That's why we don't really have any original source material.

00:14:32We only have things that are hundreds of years later.

00:14:37But, you know, you get to the time of Constantine, who's basically utterly confused, going,

00:14:44well, what is Christianity, right?

00:14:48What do you believe here, right?

00:14:49That's where we get the Apostles' Creed and all these kind of things,

00:14:53because they're trying to really, after 200 years of chaos,

00:14:56they're trying to go back, right, to get to the basics again.

00:15:00What are the fundamentals that we all agree on?

00:15:02And the only reason was it was out of control.

00:15:05There was nothing.

00:15:06So, in some ways, even though I hate the hierarchical nature of the church,

00:15:10I really understand how it developed, why it developed,

00:15:14because it was the people in the know.

00:15:17Most of all your bishops over your cities, they knew Latin.

00:15:21They knew Greek, right?

00:15:22They were academics.

00:15:25They were smart people, right?

00:15:27They had knowledge.

00:15:28That's why they were in that position.

00:15:33So, the question to me was, okay, well, then what happened?

00:15:39Well, then we end up with Augustine, or sorry, Constantine,

00:15:45you know, the beginning of the Catholic Church,

00:15:47which then gets, you know, which by, from 300 to 500,

00:15:51you know, they're trying to figure out what it is that we believe,

00:15:54and then from 500 all the way up to 1,500 for the next 1,000 years,

00:16:00you have this very dark, twisted, authoritarian, religious culture

00:16:08that's driven by selfish ambition and greed, right?

00:16:11And it's chaos, and it gets all twisted,

00:16:13because now we have holy Roman emperors fighting wars on behalf of the church,

00:16:18and it gets politicized, and then we have Martin Luther,

00:16:23you know, who decides that, you know, that we're kind of missing some things here,

00:16:31you know, we've kind of got off the rails.

00:16:34So, at that point, then, how do people build apostles?

00:16:39And it's interesting, because I was doing some research about this,

00:16:42and even at the time of Luther, during the 15-1600s,

00:16:47the word apostle was actually used in the context of missionaries, right?

00:16:53So, Patrick, you know, going to Ireland was an apostle,

00:16:58but it was not seen as, you know, an office,

00:17:03it was seen as a function again, right?

00:17:06We're back to this thing, you know, I've been talking about this,

00:17:09it's not a hierarchical position, but it's a function, it's a skill set,

00:17:14it's what he did, he was a missionary.

00:17:17So, apostoling, because the root of the word apostle means sent one, right?

00:17:22Or ambassador.

00:17:23It's somebody who's being sent somewhere, going to another culture,

00:17:28going to another civilization, representing the teachings of Jesus,

00:17:33so they're ambassadors, right?

00:17:34They're, you know, they're bringing this message of this other kingdom,

00:17:39so it's missionary, right?

00:17:41It's not, you know, we have, they had popes and bishops and cardinals,

00:17:45those were the institutional guys, the apostles, that's what you did.

00:17:48So, even all the way up to the 1600s, the word is still functional, right?

00:17:53It's not hierarchical.

00:17:54Darrell Bock Whenever I first began to look at that passage from Ephesians,

00:17:59it's really difficult to read it not in the way that they've indoctrinated you.

00:18:03So, the passage says explicitly, so Christ gave himself the apostles, the prophets,

00:18:09the evangelists, pastors, and teachers to equip his people for the works of service

00:18:13so that the body of Christ may be built up.

00:18:15Darrell Bock But isn't the word first in there?

00:18:17Darrell Bock That's where I was headed with this.

00:18:19Darrell Bock Okay, good, because that's where I think people get confused.

00:18:22Darrell Bock Yeah, so, well, what happens is whenever they preach this,

00:18:25they say, we're going to read Ephesians 4, 11 to 12,

00:18:29and they read exactly what I just read to you.

00:18:32Darrell Bock But if you keep reading, the very next verse says,

00:18:35until, and if you add the word until, now you see that there is a timeline in which this is

00:18:42to be established,

00:18:44until we reach unity in the faith and knowledge in the Son of God.

00:18:47Darrell Bock And if you understand the context of what that means in the further context of the letter to

00:18:53Ephesians,

00:18:54he's saying, basically, we're going to spread the gospel until the knowledge of the gospel has been spread,

00:19:00basically until we all understand Jesus was sent and the gospel, the good news that Jesus was sent.

00:19:07Darrell Bock So there was a timeline for this, but if you read this passage

00:19:13and you try to usurp your dominating control over the body of people,

00:19:19you can't read that verse 13.

00:19:21It just doesn't work with your motive and your agenda.

00:19:25Darrell Bock More than that, like you said, the word means sent out,

00:19:28so how can you be an apostle and just never leave your church?

00:19:31Darrell Bock Right.

00:19:32Darrell Bock You're basically a king in your kingdom.

00:19:34None of it really fits.

00:19:36And I've wondered why this is.

00:19:38Why did they do this?

00:19:39Why would they even want to do this?

00:19:41Well, if you read my latest book, Christian Identity to the NAR,

00:19:47when you understand the British-Israel framework and how all of this came to mold and shape Pentecostalism,

00:19:55it was the idea that we're past the books of the Bible.

00:19:59Now we're into the phase of the coming kingdom.

00:20:02And under the coming kingdom, we are the kings.

00:20:05We're the ones who are reigning.

00:20:06And we are to preach damnation to the rest of the world.

00:20:10And so you have people like Frank Sanford who would sail around the globe,

00:20:14quote-unquote spreading the gospel, but never even entering the shores or never coming on shore.

00:20:20He would basically preach at a continent and say,

00:20:23you guys are doomed to hell because you don't believe our message,

00:20:26and then sail to the next place.

00:20:28Well, that's not spreading the gospel.

00:20:30So they've moved past the gospel, and essentially they have put an end date to the gospel.

00:20:36Interestingly, most of the churches that I've looked at from the latter rain, from Pentecostalism, even early charismatic,

00:20:44none of them will outright say that.

00:20:46But in Branhamism, we did.

00:20:48We actually said that the day of repentance has passed in many churches.

00:20:53So we believed it.

00:20:55But the others who came into this movement, and remember, you can look at the Voice of Healing magazine,

00:21:00you can see these hundreds of ministers standing behind Branham and agreeing with everything that the man says.

00:21:05They all at one point did agree with this, or they would have just condemned him as a heretic.

00:21:10Because they didn't condemn him as a heretic, they were standing behind him.

00:21:14The movement at one point believed that we're past the gospel.

00:21:18Now we are the ones who are going to dominate the earth, and we're going to usurp our authority,

00:21:23and we're going to do this through our own mechanism of authoritarian control,

00:21:28which we call the Five-Fold Ministry, which was something, like you said,

00:21:32has developed into this long before latter rain existed.

00:21:36Well, when I first heard it, it was always said, first apostles.

00:21:42And because it says first, therefore, they're the highest ranking, right?

00:21:48So it was like first, first place is apostle, second place is prophet, right?

00:21:53When I read that, I thought it meant first, like they came first.

00:21:58It wasn't hierarchical, it was chronological.

00:22:01In other words, the apostles happened to be the first because they were Jesus' disciples.

00:22:06So that's always intrigued me.

00:22:10What I've struggled with is like, okay, so why did this happen?

00:22:18And where did it suddenly come back, right?

00:22:22Because it's basically gone for a thousand years.

00:22:27Then the term gets used as missionary for a couple centuries, right?

00:22:33Then even in everything that I can find, even in the early 1800s,

00:22:39at the very beginning of the 1800s, any literature that you see that has that term in it,

00:22:45it's used to describe some, it's sort of applied like they're a leader of a social movement

00:22:53or they're, you know, some, you know what I mean?

00:22:56There's, you know, any sort of a movement, they're the apostle of it.

00:23:01They're sort of the founder of this movement.

00:23:03So it's even used secularly, right?

00:23:07It's not seen as just a religious term.

00:23:10It's just seen as somebody who's a leader of a movement.

00:23:13Whenever I began studying this, I went down that same path.

00:23:17Because remember, I grew up with King James only.

00:23:20That's how we read the Bible.

00:23:21And it does use the word first.

00:23:23That's how the translators translated it.

00:23:25One of the tools that I did as I'm reading the Bible over and over again,

00:23:29one of the tools I used was Bible Hub.

00:23:31Because you can pull up the interlinear and you can read the text along with it.

00:23:35And I understood, because I had worked with people of other languages,

00:23:40I understood that one word in the English language doesn't match one word in the other languages.

00:23:46Sometimes it's a whole paragraph to try to understand and vice versa.

00:23:50But in the interlinear, the first is a structural statement.

00:23:56It's like it's adding history and depth to the statement.

00:24:00If you read it, and you can pull it up on BibleHub.com, you can pull up interlinear,

00:24:05but it says, the words translated,

00:24:08and he gave some indeed to be apostles, some now prophets.

00:24:15So if you understand it like this, what it's doing is,

00:24:18the first is not an incorrect translation.

00:24:21It's talking about, we had apostles.

00:24:24Now we have some prophets, and now we have some evangelists, and now some shepherds.

00:24:29It's putting it into a structural timeline.

00:24:32Darrell Bock Yeah.

00:24:33Darrell Bock That's what I mean, it's chronological.

00:24:34It's not hierarchical.

00:24:36Darrell Bock Exactly.

00:24:37And the way that they've translated it as hierarchical,

00:24:41it doesn't fit the ancient text.

00:24:43And I'm no expert, so don't take my word for this.

00:24:47But in my studies, I have learned that this is not supposed to be a hierarchy.

00:24:51This is flat, but it's a concept of historical value,

00:24:55not of anything with authoritarian control.

00:24:58Well, I kept digging, because I'm seeing the fact that this five-fold apostles,

00:25:06all this, isn't around for a thousand years.

00:25:10Then for a couple centuries, it's seen as missionaries,

00:25:14and then it's seen as leaders of movement.

00:25:18So where was the first group of people that actually restored this?

00:25:25Darrell Bock And as far as I can tell, unless somebody out there has access to something

00:25:31I don't have, the very first group that actually brings this back as a part of their movement

00:25:39or their sect is what's called the Catholic Apostolic Church.

00:25:43Darrell Bock Some people use also called Irvingism because it's named after the founder of the group

00:25:50who was a Scotsman by the name of Edward Irving.

00:25:54Irving lived from 1792 to 1834.

00:25:59So he was a, actually what's fascinating, he was a Presbyterian minister.

00:26:05So he's a Scottish Presbyterian.

00:26:06Why is he a Scottish Presbyterian?

00:26:09That's John Knox, the founder of Presbyterianism from Scotland, right?

00:26:13So he's kept this, you know, kept this Presbyterianism.

00:26:20And it's interesting.

00:26:22So here's, let me just read this, because I found this interesting.

00:26:25So, you know, Irving becomes a sensational figure in London because he has these incredibly fiery sermons

00:26:37about the second coming.

00:26:39But here's kind of four tenets of the Catholic Apostolic Church.

00:26:46One, which was their top one, restoration of apostles.

00:26:50So in other words, here they are now, you know, centuries, what, 1700 years later,

00:26:59suddenly realizing, wait a minute, they believe that for the church to be ready for the second coming.

00:27:05So this ties all into the second coming, which I also found fascinating, right?

00:27:11God had to restore the original four-fold ministry of apostles, prophets, evangelists, and pastors.

00:27:18And then in 1835, they actually designated 12 new apostles to lead their global church, right?

00:27:27So this is the first time I could find anywhere where somebody's like, wait a minute, this needs to come

00:27:33back, right?

00:27:34Irving also believed strongly in the charismatic gifts, right?

00:27:39He was actually the precursor to Pentecostalism, as far as I can tell.

00:27:45I can't find anybody that has this kind of a platform or is this well-known before him, right?

00:27:54And they also then developed this elaborate liturgy.

00:28:00They have really formal services and, you know, vestments and stone altars.

00:28:07And they kind of mixed up Catholicism and Anglicanism and Eastern Orthodoxy, right?

00:28:13So they create all this symbolism and drama, right, in their church services.

00:28:20And their focus, though, was all about the end times.

00:28:26So I find this interesting, given now what I understand about Pentecostalism,

00:28:32latter reign, about how this five-fold thing ties into the second coming.

00:28:37I had never actually put that together, even though I know those two things were true.

00:28:41I never actually realized that even from its very roots in the 1830s,

00:28:47the second coming in the five-fold or four-fold or whatever you want to call it,

00:28:51those two things are syncopatic, right?

00:28:54They're together.

00:28:56Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started

00:28:59or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter reign,

00:29:05charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?

00:29:09You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website,

00:29:14william-branham.org.

00:29:16On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins,

00:29:22Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery, John McKinnon, and others,

00:29:26with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.

00:29:31You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.

00:29:37If you want to contribute to the cause,

00:29:40you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the top.

00:29:44And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or

00:29:50watching.

00:29:50On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.

00:29:55It's really a strange and unusual development when you think about how the five-fold ministry came to be,

00:30:01because you can't just assume somebody said,

00:30:05hey, I've got this bright idea, we're going to create a structure of authoritarian control,

00:30:09and we're going to model it after the verbiage used in Ephesians 4.

00:30:12Sure. I got to studying this.

00:30:15Irving, you're right.

00:30:16I think that's the first real mention of the earliest form of the five-fold ministry.

00:30:22That's how I'll put it.

00:30:23But leading up to this, you had key figures that were spreading ideas that weren't –

00:30:29you couldn't bundle them and say they were teaching five-fold ministry.

00:30:32But what they were doing was they were bringing back –

00:30:35they were laying the bedding for it.

00:30:36That's probably the best way to say it.

00:30:37Jane Leed and her Philadelphia society.

00:30:41And what year was that, would you say?

00:30:43Do you know?

00:30:44Leed died in 1704, so it would be late 1600s.

00:30:47Wow, 100 years earlier.

00:30:49Yeah.

00:30:50So what she did, if you understand her theses –

00:30:54and we have a series that I do with Stephen Montgomery, the Converging Apostasy.

00:30:58We talk about Leed a good bit because she is bringing forth the idea of the prophetic movement

00:31:04and the manifested sons of God's theology.

00:31:08And she's in Philadelphia?

00:31:10No, it's called the Philadelphian Society, named after the Philadelphian church, right?

00:31:16Where is she located?

00:31:17She is in England, Norfolk, England.

00:31:21Oh, okay.

00:31:22Where it gets interesting – and you can't tie it directly to Irving.

00:31:25I have tried many times.

00:31:26But what you can say is Irving was teaching something that was so similar that you have to believe that

00:31:34there had to have been some sort of an influence,

00:31:36but it wasn't a direct influence, because he is teaching end-of-day theology, she is teaching it.

00:31:41Jane Leed's writings were found in Charles Price's possessions right before Latter Rain was birthed.

00:31:48Price was connected to Branham and many others in the healing revival.

00:31:52So this had a strong influence.

00:31:54Also, Jane Leed, there's a direct tie to the group – I think it's the group in Benton Harbor.

00:31:59There was a cult there that also had some influence on Branham.

00:32:03In fact, Branham mentions a key figure from that movement coming to the tabernacle in the early years, which is

00:32:08weird.

00:32:09But anyway, Jane Leed was kind of a mystic Christian.

00:32:14She was teaching it, Christianity, in a mystic form, and her focus was a very end-of-days-ish type

00:32:22religion,

00:32:23much like you would call Pentecostalism, long before Pentecostalism existed, modern Pentecostalism.

00:32:28So she laid the bedding, and she had some influence, enough so much that it came into the United States.

00:32:36Irving is the one who packaged it.

00:32:38Irving came along, and basically the five-fold ministry, like you said, he's creating the apostle concept.

00:32:44Leed was more of a, we're entering into the prophetic now.

00:32:48We're going to have restored prophets.

00:32:50She didn't take it so far as to connect it to Ephesians, if I remember correctly,

00:32:55and somebody may correct me if I'm wrong on this.

00:32:58But anyway, you have this bedding that's created for the prophetic movement.

00:33:01Some of it comes into the United States.

00:33:03Through Irving, it's interesting because you have people like Dowie, who is also Scottish,

00:33:09and it's hard to trace all of his theological sources,

00:33:15but there's an element of all of this that comes in through his ministry,

00:33:19also predating Latter Rain, but it brings the idea of authoritarian control,

00:33:24which he so much has set up what he believed to be Zion City,

00:33:28where people were going to live in a thousand new lease, right?

00:33:31So all of this is, like you said, cross-pollinating.

00:33:34It's coming to form this notion that we need an authoritarian structure

00:33:39if we're going to prepare for the end of days, and I think that's the best way to say it.

00:33:43Well, yeah, that was the thing that was kind of an eye-opener for me

00:33:46because it's sort of reverse engineering.

00:33:48Well, Jesus is coming back, the second coming, therefore we need this, right?

00:33:54In other words, the context was the second coming,

00:33:58the means where we have to reestablish the fivefold ministry,

00:34:02and I hadn't actually never put those two things together,

00:34:04even though I knew they were two major themes,

00:34:08and everywhere I go, whether it was Mike Bickle,

00:34:13who became consumed with the second coming,

00:34:15or, you know, the whole 70s we had Hal Lindsey in the second coming,

00:34:23you know, all these, you know, this whole end times kind of thing.

00:34:26I had never realized that that actually was the context

00:34:31why we needed the fivefold ministry,

00:34:33because I always wondered, well, where did this suddenly make this reemergence,

00:34:37and why?

00:34:38You know, why after 1,700 years of it disappearing,

00:34:42is we suddenly need it?

00:34:44Nobody else seemed to think we needed it for a very long time.

00:34:47Suddenly now we need this, and it's mission critical,

00:34:50and we have this whole movement.

00:34:51Where this, where you talked about the U.S.,

00:34:54where this jumps over to the U.S.

00:34:55is in the context of something you and I had talked about a few months back,

00:35:02which was this strange spiritual environment in upstate New York, right,

00:35:10where you had Charles Finney's revivals,

00:35:13you had spiritualism, right,

00:35:16you had the beginning of the, what was it, the brethren we talked about,

00:35:20but the bigger one is the Mormons.

00:35:25And the Mormons, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young,

00:35:30were the sort of American side of this,

00:35:35who also believed in the restoration of the apostles.

00:35:39And that was a big thing in early Mormonism, right?

00:35:44In fact, can't you, I think there's a mountain range in Utah,

00:35:47or something called the apostles, you know?

00:35:50So I think I'm right, but anyway,

00:35:53so it does make its way over to the U.S.,

00:35:57but in an area that we now call a cult,

00:36:02which is fascinating to me, right?

00:36:04But again, this weird environment in upstate New York,

00:36:08you know, again, spiritual revelation,

00:36:11we have an angel giving golden tablets to one guy

00:36:14who now also, you know, guess what?

00:36:17He's, you know, been talking directly to heaven.

00:36:21This is, and the reason I keep bringing this up

00:36:23is there's certain recurring themes as a historian,

00:36:26and you know this well,

00:36:28is you step back and you start seeing these same traits, right?

00:36:33And the same kind of thing.

00:36:35And in Pentecost, you know, in evangelicalism,

00:36:38like in the Presbyterian world,

00:36:40your authority is based on the scripture, right?

00:36:43It's based on your knowledge of the word of God.

00:36:45You exegete, you learn the Greek,

00:36:48you learn the Hebrew, you tear the word apart.

00:36:50And Pentecostalism, which has been kind of

00:36:53an interesting journey to me,

00:36:55it's all about your visit to heaven,

00:36:58your spiritual revelation that you got

00:37:01from God himself, right?

00:37:03From Jesus.

00:37:04So there's, it's like these two, you know,

00:37:08these two kind of parallel roads here.

00:37:12But one's based on the, you know,

00:37:14the Greek and the Hebrew and the translations

00:37:16and all this, and this other one over here

00:37:18is based on mystical experiences.

00:37:22Which, where this gets interesting to me is,

00:37:25is of course, on the one side,

00:37:27you have theological and intellectual arguments, right?

00:37:31Of translation.

00:37:32Over here, you can't have a whole lot of debate

00:37:36because these are all personal experiences.

00:37:39And how do you, you know,

00:37:41how do you argue with somebody

00:37:44about their experience?

00:37:45You weren't there.

00:37:46What do you, right?

00:37:47It's like, that's always the argument.

00:37:49You don't know.

00:37:51So where this kind of gets sad,

00:37:53okay, I'm going to deviate here on something.

00:37:57Where this gets sad,

00:37:58and I'll share this story

00:38:00because I actually just shared it last week with someone.

00:38:03Where this, why this is so important to me

00:38:07is in 1982,

00:38:10I walked with Mike Pickle

00:38:13across the parking lot

00:38:15of his church in South County, St. Louis

00:38:19in the middle of the searing heat

00:38:21at two o'clock in the afternoon

00:38:23as he was, I didn't know at the time,

00:38:26and was going to recruit me

00:38:27to come with him to Kansas City.

00:38:29But in the process,

00:38:31as he was trying to tell me

00:38:33the inspirational story

00:38:34about why we needed to go,

00:38:37he went back to his experience in Cairo.

00:38:40And it was framed this way.

00:38:42While I was in my hotel room,

00:38:45I had this impression

00:38:47that God wanted, okay?

00:38:49So the context was,

00:38:51I had an impression.

00:38:53After we met Bob Jones

00:38:55in March of 83,

00:38:57and this whole spiritual,

00:39:01experiential thing

00:39:02sort of was thrown at me,

00:39:05like I was suddenly,

00:39:06for the first time,

00:39:07dealing with this,

00:39:08and it was so sensational,

00:39:11and it was so popular,

00:39:13I watched Mike transition

00:39:16from impressions

00:39:17to the stories get shifted

00:39:20to God spoke to me, right?

00:39:23By the time it gets to IHOP,

00:39:25he's been to the third heaven.

00:39:27And that was part of one of the reasons

00:39:31that I wrote my book,

00:39:32was I didn't really get into

00:39:36all the sensational sexual stuff.

00:39:38What I was more worried about

00:39:40was the exaggeration,

00:39:43the embellishment,

00:39:45the, right,

00:39:46all to get people excited

00:39:49and justify, you know,

00:39:52why I am who I am

00:39:54because I can say all this

00:39:56because I've been to the third heaven.

00:39:58So I'm like, wait a minute,

00:39:59this is the same argument

00:40:01that Paul had

00:40:02in the first century.

00:40:05I'm an apostle.

00:40:06So I can, you know,

00:40:07I can stand with you guys

00:40:10because I had that experience too, right?

00:40:13And so,

00:40:14and then,

00:40:15again,

00:40:16for you,

00:40:17that's so normal.

00:40:18That was kind of the world

00:40:19you grew up in.

00:40:20That was like your environment

00:40:21for me is coming in

00:40:22from the outside.

00:40:23It was a bit of a culture shock.

00:40:26Yeah.

00:40:26It's like,

00:40:26how do I deal with this?

00:40:28But what was sad to me,

00:40:30which was really sad,

00:40:32and this really broke my heart

00:40:34and my relationship with Mike

00:40:35is watching him go

00:40:39from arguing the truth,

00:40:41you know,

00:40:42it's like this is the law,

00:40:43this is the Bible, right?

00:40:44This is, you know,

00:40:45we'll deal here

00:40:46to now everything gets exaggerated

00:40:49and embellished

00:40:50and I'm a big deal

00:40:51because I've had all these

00:40:52profound spiritual experiences

00:40:54and everything kind of got blown up.

00:40:56And then there's a whole generation

00:40:58of young people

00:40:59that get

00:41:01buy into this,

00:41:03right,

00:41:03who are

00:41:03killing themselves

00:41:05religiously

00:41:06with just,

00:41:07you know,

00:41:09non-stop religious activity,

00:41:11right,

00:41:12trying to prove to God

00:41:13that they're good enough

00:41:14and they're holy enough,

00:41:17all based on a lot of exaggeration.

00:41:20I look at it a bit differently

00:41:22and I know that people get angry

00:41:24with me for saying this,

00:41:26but I really do view it

00:41:28differently

00:41:28because of just simply

00:41:29how the mind works.

00:41:32Whenever somebody,

00:41:33so let's talk

00:41:35two different pathways.

00:41:36Let's take one pathway,

00:41:38you're a Christian theologian,

00:41:39you're grounded in the scripture,

00:41:41you read the Bible verse,

00:41:43you exposit that verse,

00:41:46you base your sermons off of it,

00:41:48that's your context of scripture.

00:41:49It's really hard to deviate

00:41:51because you have

00:41:52a single source of truth.

00:41:53The Bible is right here,

00:41:54the verse is right here.

00:41:56I can change it

00:41:57if I want,

00:41:58but when I come back

00:41:59to it the next Sunday,

00:42:00it's still the same verse

00:42:01that I read last Sunday.

00:42:02So that's one pathway.

00:42:04Now you've got another pathway

00:42:05of new revelations.

00:42:06I've got a new revelation

00:42:08and I tell it to the people.

00:42:11Next Sunday,

00:42:11I tell the same revelation

00:42:13to the people.

00:42:14This continues on

00:42:14and on and on.

00:42:16I'm not grounded

00:42:17in anything

00:42:17that is set in stone.

00:42:19I'm grounded

00:42:20only in my memory.

00:42:22So as you keep talking,

00:42:24sometimes,

00:42:25especially if you're

00:42:26getting older like me,

00:42:27your memory isn't

00:42:29as explicit

00:42:30as it used to be

00:42:31when you were younger.

00:42:32So you might remember things,

00:42:34but now take it

00:42:35a level complex

00:42:37beyond that.

00:42:38You have memory

00:42:39and you also have emotions.

00:42:41And your emotions

00:42:42at the time

00:42:43you had the memory

00:42:44shape that memory.

00:42:46Now,

00:42:47years later,

00:42:48your emotions

00:42:49in front of the people

00:42:50shape it even more

00:42:52than when you had

00:42:53that original memory.

00:42:54So what happens is

00:42:55your theology,

00:42:56because it's not based

00:42:57on something

00:42:58that is black and white,

00:42:59now your theology evolves

00:43:01and you may believe

00:43:03that your exaggerations

00:43:05are actual memory

00:43:06because you've mixed emotions,

00:43:08history,

00:43:08change,

00:43:09et cetera.

00:43:10Now take that.

00:43:12You just mentioned

00:43:12Mike Bickle.

00:43:13Well, to your point,

00:43:14we already know

00:43:15in psychology

00:43:16you can install

00:43:18false memories

00:43:19in people.

00:43:19You can manipulate

00:43:21people's minds.

00:43:21You can self-deceive yourself

00:43:23into believing

00:43:25that something

00:43:26actually happened,

00:43:27right?

00:43:27Right.

00:43:28So memory's

00:43:29a bit dicey.

00:43:31Very much so.

00:43:32But now take this

00:43:33to whole new levels.

00:43:35I mentioned Jane Leed

00:43:36and we've identified

00:43:38multiple sources

00:43:39where Leed came

00:43:39into the movement.

00:43:41But Leed was just

00:43:42one person.

00:43:42Branham himself

00:43:44gives this trail

00:43:45often,

00:43:46frequently,

00:43:47which tells me

00:43:48that this wasn't

00:43:49his invention.

00:43:50Others in the movement

00:43:51were saying the same things.

00:43:53And he would give the trail

00:43:54from Wesley to Moody

00:43:55to Sankey

00:43:56to Finney

00:43:57to Knox.

00:43:57And he would

00:43:58just go through

00:43:59this trail

00:44:00of individuals

00:44:01whose ideas

00:44:03were built upon

00:44:03another person's ideas.

00:44:05And those ideas

00:44:06are doing exactly

00:44:07like what I mentioned

00:44:09with Bickle.

00:44:09they're in emotional

00:44:10response

00:44:12to a new theology

00:44:13that is out of

00:44:15just slightly

00:44:15extra biblical.

00:44:16It may not even

00:44:17be that bad

00:44:18in its initial form.

00:44:20But what happens

00:44:20is as it's shaped

00:44:22over time

00:44:22through memories,

00:44:23one person

00:44:24expands it

00:44:25into this whole

00:44:25new theology.

00:44:26It's going further

00:44:28and further away

00:44:29from the Bible text.

00:44:30Well,

00:44:30another person

00:44:31builds upon it.

00:44:31Then another

00:44:32builds upon that.

00:44:33And it just continues.

00:44:34And the other theme,

00:44:37which I meant

00:44:37to mention this earlier,

00:44:38I wish I had,

00:44:39but when you're thinking

00:44:41of end-of-days revivalism

00:44:43and you're thinking

00:44:43of the five-fold ministry,

00:44:45the authoritarian control,

00:44:46there's a reason

00:44:47why those two

00:44:48are cohesive.

00:44:49The glue

00:44:50that binds it

00:44:51all together

00:44:51is restorationism.

00:44:53And Finney's

00:44:55eschatology,

00:44:56the revival

00:44:57was a way

00:44:57to bring the kingdom

00:44:59and you're going

00:45:00to basically restore

00:45:01the kingdom of God.

00:45:02That's what his premise was.

00:45:05Jane Leed

00:45:06was a restoration movement.

00:45:08We're going to restore

00:45:09the prophetic,

00:45:11we're going to bring down heaven,

00:45:13that kind of eschatology,

00:45:14right?

00:45:15So you combine those two,

00:45:16what do you get?

00:45:17You've got one person

00:45:18preaching manifested

00:45:19sons of God.

00:45:20You've got another person

00:45:21saying,

00:45:22we need to bring

00:45:23the end-of-days revival.

00:45:24Mix those two,

00:45:25what do you get?

00:45:26You have authoritarian control

00:45:28in order to bring

00:45:29the end-of-days revival.

00:45:30Interesting

00:45:31in what you're talking about,

00:45:32what I was thinking about

00:45:33is there's a crossover

00:45:37because we've talked

00:45:38about, you know,

00:45:39the evangelical,

00:45:39the word, right?

00:45:41And then the Pentecostal,

00:45:42the experience.

00:45:43But you know

00:45:43where the crossover is?

00:45:45Peter Wagner.

00:45:46Yeah.

00:45:47Right?

00:45:48Because what's interesting

00:45:49is Fuller

00:45:50is not a Pentecostal college,

00:45:53right?

00:45:54It's considered

00:45:54one of the main

00:45:56evangelical Bible schools

00:45:58like Dallas Theological Seminary,

00:45:59right?

00:45:59So it's interesting to me

00:46:01because, you know,

00:46:02and this ties into my journey,

00:46:05my own personal journey

00:46:06with Wimber and all that.

00:46:07So you have John Wimber

00:46:08who grew,

00:46:10you know,

00:46:10basically pastored

00:46:11a friend's church,

00:46:13right?

00:46:13Quaker church

00:46:14in Yorba Linda

00:46:16who's a part of Calvary Chapel

00:46:18but then,

00:46:19also becomes a part

00:46:20of Calvary Chapel

00:46:21but then he has this,

00:46:24well,

00:46:24his church has an experience

00:46:26with Lonnie Frisbee,

00:46:27right?

00:46:28Who's this sort of

00:46:29Catherine Kuhlman,

00:46:31like the male version

00:46:32of Catherine Kuhlman

00:46:33in many ways,

00:46:34right?

00:46:35And so John gets exposed

00:46:36to Pentecostalism,

00:46:39right?

00:46:39Who then

00:46:40has this sort of

00:46:43epiphany

00:46:44and says,

00:46:45oh wait,

00:46:45these gifts actually

00:46:46aren't dead,

00:46:48they are current,

00:46:48but now he's bringing in

00:46:50evangelicals,

00:46:51right?

00:46:52So you have Jack Deere,

00:46:53Dallas Theological Seminary,

00:46:54Sam Storms,

00:46:55right?

00:46:55All these evangelical

00:46:57theologians

00:46:58who are word guys

00:46:59are suddenly now,

00:47:01you know,

00:47:03have this charismatic side.

00:47:05Well,

00:47:06enter Peter Wagner

00:47:07who is kind of

00:47:08John's buddy

00:47:09at Fuller,

00:47:12right?

00:47:12This evangelical thing

00:47:13who suddenly now

00:47:15wants to bring

00:47:16the five-fold ministry back

00:47:18and I always thought

00:47:19that was interesting,

00:47:20right?

00:47:20Because you always see it

00:47:21as just Pentecostal

00:47:23evangelical,

00:47:24but in the 1980s

00:47:26it started crossing,

00:47:28right?

00:47:29That by the,

00:47:30what is it,

00:47:30I think it's by the 90s,

00:47:32you know,

00:47:32then you have,

00:47:33you know,

00:47:33what you call the,

00:47:34you know,

00:47:35the NAR,

00:47:37you know,

00:47:37Apostolic Reformation

00:47:38driven by Peter Wagner,

00:47:41a mainline

00:47:42evangelical theologian.

00:47:45Strange bedfellows here.

00:47:46Absolutely.

00:47:47Sometime I need

00:47:48to go through

00:47:48and just map out

00:47:50some of these connections

00:47:51because it would blow heads

00:47:53if I were to do it.

00:47:54I've mentioned often

00:47:55that John Wimber

00:47:57was in something

00:47:57that developed

00:47:58into the NAR

00:47:59and all of the,

00:48:00all of the heads

00:48:01of the John Wimber fans

00:48:03just explode.

00:48:04Let me just give you

00:48:06a broad,

00:48:07like,

00:48:07I don't know,

00:48:08two-minute overview

00:48:09and I'll blow your head

00:48:10on this,

00:48:11on the podcast here.

00:48:12Give it to me.

00:48:13So F.F. Bosworth

00:48:14was Branham's mentor.

00:48:15He was a ranking figure

00:48:18in John Dowie's cult.

00:48:19He's the guy

00:48:19that wrote

00:48:20Christ the Healer,

00:48:21et cetera.

00:48:22He was writing

00:48:23in the newsletter

00:48:24of Gerald Burton Winrod

00:48:27who was the head

00:48:28of the fascist movement,

00:48:32fascist evangelical movement

00:48:33in America.

00:48:35He was dubbed

00:48:36the Kansas Hitler,

00:48:37the Jayhawk Nazi.

00:48:38He was tied

00:48:39to Amy Simple McPherson.

00:48:41Amy Simple McPherson

00:48:42to have him

00:48:43in the Foursquare Church.

00:48:44He was also working

00:48:45with Charles Fuller

00:48:47who founded

00:48:48the Fuller Theological Seminary.

00:48:50So there you've got

00:48:51a bridge between

00:48:52Dowie and Fuller,

00:48:55right?

00:48:56Interesting, yeah.

00:48:56You also have

00:48:58Lonnie Frisbee

00:48:59was also,

00:49:01he stayed in an apartment

00:49:02by Derek Prince.

00:49:03Derek Prince

00:49:04was in this movement.

00:49:05Derek Prince

00:49:06introduced Branham

00:49:07before the

00:49:08Full Gospel Businessmen.

00:49:09I've got that on recording.

00:49:11You've got all of these

00:49:12connections of people

00:49:13that are just,

00:49:14you can't say

00:49:14that they're aligned

00:49:17theologically,

00:49:18but they're cross-pollinating

00:49:20with each other

00:49:21all of these ideas.

00:49:22And so what happened

00:49:23was,

00:49:25and I can trace that further,

00:49:27I won't do it

00:49:27in this podcast,

00:49:28what happened was

00:49:30you have this network

00:49:31of people

00:49:32that are cross-pollinating

00:49:33ideas

00:49:34that has existed

00:49:36since...

00:49:37And they're all

00:49:37in Southern California.

00:49:38No, they're from

00:49:40Coast to Coast.

00:49:42McPherson,

00:49:43Fuller,

00:49:44they're all

00:49:44Southern California,

00:49:45right?

00:49:46Yeah.

00:49:46So you've got

00:49:47Bosworth,

00:49:48who's in Florida

00:49:49at the time,

00:49:50I believe.

00:49:51You've got

00:49:51Gerald Burton,

00:49:53Windrod's in Kansas.

00:49:54You've got

00:49:55all of these people

00:49:56who are just

00:49:56cross-pollinated,

00:49:57but they're holding

00:49:58these conventions.

00:49:59And that's really

00:50:00the key to understand.

00:50:01They would all go

00:50:01to these conventions

00:50:02together,

00:50:02people would go

00:50:03listen to them.

00:50:04Some of these conventions

00:50:05were tied to politics,

00:50:07some to the Klan,

00:50:08some to the

00:50:08Fundamentalist movement,

00:50:09some to early

00:50:11Pentecostalism

00:50:11when it was birthed.

00:50:13What Fuller did,

00:50:14he did not invent

00:50:16the concept

00:50:17New Apostolic Reformation.

00:50:19He also really

00:50:20didn't put a start

00:50:21date on it.

00:50:22What he did was

00:50:23he said,

00:50:23we see all

00:50:24of these networked

00:50:26churches,

00:50:27all cross-pollinating

00:50:28ideas,

00:50:30and this

00:50:31apostolic network

00:50:32framework,

00:50:33I'm calling it

00:50:34the New Apostolic

00:50:35Reformation

00:50:36because it is

00:50:37birthing something

00:50:38new.

00:50:39If you really

00:50:40understand what

00:50:40he was saying,

00:50:41that's what he

00:50:41was saying.

00:50:42So the NAR

00:50:43actually existed

00:50:45long before

00:50:46the 80s or 90s.

00:50:47This was something

00:50:48that was just

00:50:48developing.

00:50:50In structure,

00:50:51it existed.

00:50:53So it wasn't

00:50:54called NAR.

00:50:55What was it

00:50:55called before?

00:50:56Because isn't

00:50:57NAR what

00:50:58Peter Wagner

00:50:59called it?

00:51:00Peter Wagner

00:51:01called what

00:51:02pre-existed

00:51:03the New Apostolic

00:51:04Reformation.

00:51:05He gave it

00:51:06the name,

00:51:07but he's

00:51:08tying together

00:51:09movements from

00:51:10the Restorationists,

00:51:12from the

00:51:12Later Reigns,

00:51:13from all of

00:51:14these different

00:51:14movements.

00:51:15So he put a

00:51:15label on it,

00:51:16basically.

00:51:16He put a label

00:51:17on something

00:51:17that existed.

00:51:18That makes

00:51:19sense.

00:51:19Interesting.

00:51:20But question,

00:51:22was it tied

00:51:24in to the

00:51:24Second Coming?

00:51:26Because I don't

00:51:26remember

00:51:27Waggoner's

00:51:28talking a lot

00:51:29about the

00:51:29Second Coming,

00:51:30even though it

00:51:31was a big

00:51:31Southern California

00:51:33thing,

00:51:33obviously,

00:51:34with Calvary Chapel

00:51:35and all of that.

00:51:36Well,

00:51:37that's where it

00:51:37gets odd,

00:51:37because in this

00:51:39network that he

00:51:40names,

00:51:40you had people

00:51:41with different

00:51:42end-of-days

00:51:43theologies.

00:51:44You had certain

00:51:46groups that

00:51:46believed that

00:51:47there was an

00:51:47end-of-days war

00:51:48that was coming

00:51:49between the

00:51:51Jews and the

00:51:52false Jews,

00:51:53the Christian

00:51:53identity people.

00:51:54You had people

00:51:55saying that we

00:51:56believe in a

00:51:57rapture theology.

00:51:58You had people

00:51:59that weren't

00:52:00rapture theology,

00:52:01but yet at the

00:52:02same time,

00:52:03they're all coming

00:52:04together in these

00:52:05networks.

00:52:05And so you have

00:52:06one guy who

00:52:07doesn't believe in

00:52:08a rapture theology

00:52:09and another guy

00:52:09who does,

00:52:10and they're

00:52:11cross-pollinating

00:52:12their ideas,

00:52:12which is really,

00:52:13really weird when

00:52:14you think about it.

00:52:15Wagner saw this,

00:52:16and he's like,

00:52:17why are they

00:52:17doing this?

00:52:18If you go to a

00:52:18seminary,

00:52:19you're going to

00:52:19say, well,

00:52:20that's heresy.

00:52:20You don't need

00:52:21to go against

00:52:22whatever you

00:52:23believe.

00:52:24But instead,

00:52:25what's happening

00:52:25is these people,

00:52:26because they're not

00:52:27grounded in black

00:52:28and white,

00:52:29here's what the

00:52:29Bible says,

00:52:30we're going to

00:52:30have our new

00:52:31revelation,

00:52:32now it's

00:52:33developing into

00:52:34something new.

00:52:35So a better way

00:52:36to put it,

00:52:37and had he used

00:52:39the correct label,

00:52:39you would say,

00:52:40we have developing

00:52:42in this movement

00:52:44and all of these

00:52:44movements in this

00:52:45network,

00:52:46we're developing

00:52:47a new religion

00:52:48and a new gospel.

00:52:49That's essentially

00:52:50what was happening.

00:52:51One of the things

00:52:52that is kind of

00:52:54fascinating to me

00:52:55is that the

00:52:57Jesus people

00:52:57movement of the

00:52:5970s as we know

00:53:00it is always

00:53:01kind of referenced

00:53:03as being founded

00:53:04at Calvary Chapel

00:53:06in Costa Mesa,

00:53:07California.

00:53:07That's the roots

00:53:08of it,

00:53:08right?

00:53:09So,

00:53:11but it,

00:53:12you know,

00:53:12I was growing up

00:53:13in Milwaukee,

00:53:14right?

00:53:15And it was there

00:53:15and it was always

00:53:16Calvary Chapel.

00:53:17I always thought

00:53:18that Chuck Smith

00:53:20was another

00:53:21evangelical guy

00:53:22like Billy Graham

00:53:24or my parents'

00:53:25pastor Stuart Prisco

00:53:26or Moody

00:53:28and all that,

00:53:29right?

00:53:29And part of what

00:53:31led me to think

00:53:32that way

00:53:33is that when you

00:53:34listen to Chuck's

00:53:35messages,

00:53:35they're all Bible,

00:53:37right?

00:53:37He's just teaching

00:53:38the Bible.

00:53:39Well,

00:53:40you can imagine

00:53:41in late 80s,

00:53:44I meet Paul Cain

00:53:45for the first time

00:53:46and in the course

00:53:47of conversation

00:53:48he says to me,

00:53:50oh,

00:53:50Chuck Smith

00:53:51was my business

00:53:52manager at one point.

00:53:54Seriously,

00:53:55I about fell off

00:53:56the chair,

00:53:57right?

00:53:57Because in my brain,

00:53:58Chuck Smith

00:53:59is a mainline

00:54:01evangelical,

00:54:02right?

00:54:03At this point,

00:54:04I never heard

00:54:04of Lonnie Frisbee

00:54:05still,

00:54:06right?

00:54:06I don't know,

00:54:07I don't learn

00:54:08who Lonnie Frisbee

00:54:09is until we start

00:54:10integrating with

00:54:11the vineyard

00:54:12in 88 and 89.

00:54:15but I'm going

00:54:16Chuck Smith,

00:54:20the main pastor

00:54:22of the Jesus

00:54:23people movement,

00:54:24which I always

00:54:25thought was

00:54:25an evangelical

00:54:27thing,

00:54:28right?

00:54:28I went,

00:54:29you know,

00:54:30they had a big

00:54:30event in Dallas,

00:54:32right?

00:54:32And it's all,

00:54:33you know,

00:54:33there's no

00:54:35Pentecostal stuff

00:54:36happening at this

00:54:37stuff.

00:54:37So I never

00:54:38tied the two

00:54:40together,

00:54:41right?

00:54:41Then I end up

00:54:43meeting Lonnie,

00:54:45at one of the

00:54:46vineyard conferences

00:54:47and I'm like,

00:54:48oh my God,

00:54:49you know,

00:54:50and what's

00:54:52crazy,

00:54:54really,

00:54:55I mean,

00:54:56this is,

00:54:57these are the

00:54:57stuff that I

00:54:58scratch my head.

00:54:59I got to be honest,

00:55:00so I'm going to

00:55:00just lay it out

00:55:01on the table here.

00:55:02But this is kind

00:55:04of mind-blowing

00:55:04to me.

00:55:05If any of you

00:55:06know who Lonnie

00:55:07is or ever met

00:55:08him,

00:55:08he's about,

00:55:09he was like

00:55:09about a five

00:55:10foot two

00:55:11or five

00:55:11foot three,

00:55:13really tiny

00:55:14guy with a

00:55:15very effeminate

00:55:16little voice.

00:55:18But this is a

00:55:19guy who,

00:55:19before I met

00:55:20him,

00:55:21I was told

00:55:22if Lonnie

00:55:23walked into

00:55:23the men's

00:55:24bathroom in a

00:55:25gas station

00:55:25somewhere,

00:55:26everybody would

00:55:27come out

00:55:27saved.

00:55:28That this

00:55:28guy had

00:55:30the most

00:55:30amazing

00:55:32evangelical

00:55:33or evangelistic

00:55:34gift,

00:55:35right?

00:55:35Most of the

00:55:36people that

00:55:37came to Calvary

00:55:37Chapel came in

00:55:38there through

00:55:39Lonnie,

00:55:40right?

00:55:40They'd go out

00:55:41in the beaches.

00:55:42They were,

00:55:42whatever,

00:55:43he had,

00:55:44something was

00:55:45going on

00:55:45because,

00:55:46you know,

00:55:46and of course,

00:55:47you know,

00:55:48truth be told,

00:55:48they're probably

00:55:49all high,

00:55:50right?

00:55:50Because,

00:55:51I mean,

00:55:51this is the

00:55:5270s,

00:55:52the drug thing,

00:55:53but he's,

00:55:54they're out there

00:55:54in the beat,

00:55:55love song,

00:55:55a lot of these

00:55:56bands,

00:55:56they're setting up

00:55:57on flatbed trucks,

00:55:58they're doing

00:55:59conference,

00:55:59they got all

00:56:00the surfers and

00:56:01everybody's there

00:56:02in bikinis and

00:56:03shorts and

00:56:04whatever,

00:56:05and Lonnie's up

00:56:06there squirting

00:56:06people with oil,

00:56:07they're falling down

00:56:08and he's got,

00:56:09like,

00:56:09there's wild

00:56:10stuff going on,

00:56:11right?

00:56:11And that,

00:56:12he's bringing all

00:56:13these people to

00:56:14Chuck,

00:56:14like Chuck's not

00:56:15an evangelist,

00:56:15right?

00:56:16He's actually

00:56:17boring if you

00:56:18listen to him,

00:56:18he's really

00:56:19boring.

00:56:20But Lonnie's got

00:56:21all these people

00:56:22there,

00:56:22right?

00:56:22Then Lonnie

00:56:23disappears,

00:56:24right,

00:56:24because he gets

00:56:25in trouble

00:56:25and he pops up

00:56:27at the vineyard

00:56:28and launches a

00:56:29second movement,

00:56:30right?

00:56:30This is a guy

00:56:31who so,

00:56:33was so abused,

00:56:35sexually abused

00:56:35as a child

00:56:36and struggled

00:56:37so badly

00:56:38with his sexuality

00:56:40and yet he's

00:56:41kind of like

00:56:42the little engine

00:56:43for two movements,

00:56:46right?

00:56:48Without Lonnie,

00:56:49there's no John

00:56:50Wimber,

00:56:51all right?

00:56:51There's a John

00:56:52Wimber,

00:56:52but there's an

00:56:52evangelical John

00:56:54Wimber who's,

00:56:54you know,

00:56:55doing evangelism,

00:56:57but the whole,

00:56:58you know,

00:56:59501c3,

00:57:00the,

00:57:01you know,

00:57:01the return of

00:57:02the gifts of

00:57:03healing,

00:57:03that doesn't

00:57:04happen without

00:57:04Lonnie.

00:57:05Chuck Smith

00:57:06doesn't happen

00:57:07without Lonnie

00:57:07and yet Lonnie's

00:57:09one of the most

00:57:09dysfunctional,

00:57:10broken human beings

00:57:11who eventually

00:57:12dies of AIDS.

00:57:14This is where

00:57:14my brain

00:57:15just goes,

00:57:16wow,

00:57:18like,

00:57:18what does that

00:57:19mean,

00:57:20right?

00:57:20It's like,

00:57:20was any of this

00:57:21real,

00:57:21like,

00:57:22what is this,

00:57:23right?

00:57:23Because this

00:57:23doesn't add up,

00:57:24there's no theology,

00:57:27there's no church

00:57:27practice that I

00:57:28know of

00:57:29where

00:57:31equals that

00:57:32storyline,

00:57:32twice,

00:57:33I've got a

00:57:34podcast that

00:57:35comes out,

00:57:35I think it

00:57:36comes out

00:57:36before this

00:57:37one,

00:57:38and like I

00:57:39said,

00:57:39heads blow

00:57:40when I talk

00:57:40about this

00:57:41stuff,

00:57:41even,

00:57:42it's been,

00:57:42it's had huge

00:57:43consequences even

00:57:44on my own

00:57:45team,

00:57:45because people

00:57:46do not want

00:57:47me to publish

00:57:48the facts that

00:57:48everybody's been

00:57:49covering up.

00:57:51I had a

00:57:52researcher working

00:57:52with me who

00:57:53sent me,

00:57:55and I had to

00:57:55go through and

00:57:56verify the

00:57:57information,

00:57:57but sent me

00:57:58some information

00:57:59about Chuck

00:58:00Smith and how

00:58:00he,

00:58:01how his ministry

00:58:02developed.

00:58:03And his

00:58:04ministry was

00:58:05maybe not

00:58:06launched,

00:58:07but amplified,

00:58:08I guess is a

00:58:09good way to

00:58:09say it,

00:58:09by a woman

00:58:11that went by

00:58:11the nickname

00:58:12E.C.,

00:58:13Louise Webster.

00:58:14Louise Webster

00:58:15was the head of

00:58:16the Foursquare

00:58:16Church in

00:58:17Arizona,

00:58:20and there's

00:58:21some weird

00:58:21history in there,

00:58:22I talk about it

00:58:22in the podcast,

00:58:23but the

00:58:24Foursquare

00:58:24Churches

00:58:25were very,

00:58:27looked very

00:58:28favorably at

00:58:29William Branham

00:58:29and his

00:58:30end-of-days

00:58:31theology.

00:58:31And so they

00:58:32would invite him

00:58:33into these

00:58:33churches.

00:58:34Well,

00:58:35while E.C.

00:58:35is helping

00:58:36launch Chuck

00:58:36Smith's

00:58:37career,

00:58:38and Chuck

00:58:38Smith is

00:58:39preaching in

00:58:39her church,

00:58:40Branham is

00:58:40also preaching

00:58:41in her

00:58:42church.

00:58:42So there

00:58:43you've got a

00:58:44Branham

00:58:44connection.

00:58:45Chuck would

00:58:45have known

00:58:45Branham,

00:58:46right?

00:58:46If he was

00:58:47Paul Cain's

00:58:48business

00:58:48manager,

00:58:49right?

00:58:49He would

00:58:50have been

00:58:51in that

00:58:51circle.

00:58:52Oh,

00:58:52absolutely.

00:58:53Whenever

00:58:53Paul Cain

00:58:54advertised his

00:58:54meetings,

00:58:55he always

00:58:56advertised it,

00:58:56another William

00:58:57Branham.

00:58:58He wanted

00:58:59to follow

00:59:00in that

00:59:00footstep.

00:59:01So all of

00:59:02this is more

00:59:02connected than

00:59:03people realize.

00:59:04And the

00:59:05problem is,

00:59:07people don't

00:59:08want it to

00:59:09be connected.

00:59:09They want to

00:59:10just erase the

00:59:11history,

00:59:11walk away.

00:59:12In my

00:59:13opinion,

00:59:13if you do

00:59:14that,

00:59:14you risk

00:59:15repeating the

00:59:16same bad

00:59:17mistakes that

00:59:18you did in

00:59:19history.

00:59:19So I try to

00:59:22unravel that.

00:59:23Like I said,

00:59:23I've got it in

00:59:24another podcast.

00:59:24I'm just amazed

00:59:26though.

00:59:26I guess one

00:59:27of the

00:59:27things that

00:59:28sort of

00:59:30captures me

00:59:31is the fact

00:59:33that as I

00:59:34wrote in my

00:59:34book,

00:59:35Bob Dylan

00:59:35song,

00:59:36everything is

00:59:36broken to

00:59:38me is sort

00:59:38of the

00:59:39really underlying

00:59:41theme in the

00:59:42church world.

00:59:42It's just so

00:59:43broken,

00:59:44right?

00:59:45Because it's

00:59:45run by broken

00:59:47people.

00:59:47But somehow,

00:59:50despite this

00:59:51incredible mess,

00:59:54people still

00:59:55have these

00:59:56experiences with

00:59:57God.

00:59:58And it's

00:59:58like,

00:59:59I just

00:59:59sometimes think,

01:00:00God,

01:00:00the church

01:00:01would be so

01:00:02much better

01:00:02if we weren't

01:00:03running it.

01:00:05If you could

01:00:05do this without

01:00:06us,

01:00:07it seems like we

01:00:08just keep screwing

01:00:08it up.

01:00:09You know what I

01:00:10mean?

01:00:11And it's just

01:00:11like the worst

01:00:12of us.

01:00:13Well,

01:00:13it's the best

01:00:13and the worst.

01:00:14You know what I

01:00:15mean?

01:00:15It's the best

01:00:16of us and our

01:00:17compassion and our

01:00:18caring and our

01:00:18love for one

01:00:19another and our

01:00:20laying our lives

01:00:21down.

01:00:21And then

01:00:21there's the

01:00:22worst of us

01:00:23when it's

01:00:23driven by

01:00:24selfish ambition

01:00:25and greed,

01:00:26you know,

01:00:27you know,

01:00:27with guys that

01:00:28just can't wait

01:00:29to get their

01:00:29butts on a

01:00:30stage and be

01:00:32the center of

01:00:32attention.

01:00:33So it's just

01:00:35this mix,

01:00:36right?

01:00:36It's a mess.

01:00:37It really is a

01:00:38mess.

01:00:39It was the best

01:00:40of times.

01:00:40It was the worst

01:00:41of times.

01:00:43Exactly.

01:00:44That's the

01:00:44church.

01:00:45That's church

01:00:45history,

01:00:46right?

01:00:46You know,

01:00:47but thank God,

01:00:48God's God,

01:00:49man,

01:00:49or something

01:00:50because it's

01:00:50like,

01:00:51wow,

01:00:52you know,

01:00:52it's just,

01:00:53this is just

01:00:54wild,

01:00:55all of this,

01:00:56you know,

01:00:56and I still,

01:00:58again,

01:00:58the two most

01:00:59significant movements

01:01:00of my lifetime

01:01:01are both driven

01:01:04or stimulated

01:01:05or the energy

01:01:07or whatever you

01:01:07want to call it

01:01:08is by this

01:01:09really fragile

01:01:11human being

01:01:12who very much

01:01:13was like

01:01:14Catherine Kuhlman,

01:01:15right?

01:01:15Had the same

01:01:16kind of,

01:01:17in fact,

01:01:17when the two

01:01:18of them met,

01:01:18it was almost

01:01:19like she could

01:01:19have been

01:01:20his mom,

01:01:21you know what

01:01:21I mean?

01:01:22It's like

01:01:22they were

01:01:22that same

01:01:23sort of

01:01:24drama queens,

01:01:26you know,

01:01:26that whole,

01:01:27you know,

01:01:28and so it's

01:01:29just like,

01:01:30wow,

01:01:30you know,

01:01:31and somehow

01:01:31out of all

01:01:32of this,

01:01:33we end up

01:01:34with the

01:01:34five-fold

01:01:35ministry,

01:01:35but again,

01:01:36what,

01:01:37where I get

01:01:38concerned about

01:01:39all of this

01:01:40for me,

01:01:41I think this

01:01:42is where the

01:01:43rubber

01:01:43reached the

01:01:43road for me

01:01:45is,

01:01:46you know,

01:01:46and again,

01:01:47I gotta be

01:01:48careful because

01:01:48I don't want

01:01:49to swear on

01:01:49your podcast,

01:01:52but it's like,

01:01:53can we stop

01:01:53the BS?

01:01:55And just get

01:01:55back to real,

01:01:57right?

01:01:58And it's this

01:01:58thing where I

01:01:59struggle all the

01:02:00time with feeling

01:02:02like I'm in a

01:02:04Hallmark card

01:02:05from the 1980s,

01:02:07you know,

01:02:08by,

01:02:08you know,

01:02:09New Zealand

01:02:10photographer Ann

01:02:11Gettys,

01:02:12where she's dressing

01:02:13up all these

01:02:13children in adult

01:02:15clothes,

01:02:15and they're all

01:02:16pretending to

01:02:17be adults,

01:02:18but they're

01:02:18really children

01:02:19and I often

01:02:19feel like

01:02:22that's what

01:02:22we're doing.

01:02:23It's like,

01:02:25like,

01:02:25are there,

01:02:26I mean,

01:02:26question for you,

01:02:27do you believe

01:02:28there are any

01:02:28apostles?

01:02:29Well,

01:02:30the ones that

01:02:31are existing,

01:02:31they never go

01:02:32out,

01:02:33so the,

01:02:33and since the

01:02:33word means

01:02:34the one sent

01:02:35out.

01:02:35No,

01:02:35but I mean,

01:02:35are they really

01:02:36apostles?

01:02:37See,

01:02:37to me,

01:02:38I kind of,

01:02:39I'm at the

01:02:40point where,

01:02:40no,

01:02:41there were 12

01:02:41and we're

01:02:42not,

01:02:43that's,

01:02:43they're the

01:02:44foundation.

01:02:45There hasn't

01:02:46been another

01:02:47one since,

01:02:48right?

01:02:48Are there,

01:02:49if you want to

01:02:50use it in the

01:02:50context of

01:02:51missionaries,

01:02:52well then,

01:02:53yes,

01:02:53but we don't

01:02:55use the word

01:02:55apostle,

01:02:56we say

01:02:56missionary,

01:02:57so if you're

01:02:57using apostles

01:02:58as synonymous

01:03:00with missionaries,

01:03:01I'm okay with

01:03:01that.

01:03:02If you're using

01:03:03apostles as some

01:03:05sort of hierarchical

01:03:06authority over,

01:03:07now I got a

01:03:08problem,

01:03:09right?

01:03:09Now I'm sort

01:03:10of like,

01:03:11I think you're

01:03:11pretending to

01:03:12be something,

01:03:14right?

01:03:14You're an

01:03:15overseer,

01:03:16you're an

01:03:16elder,

01:03:17you know what

01:03:18I mean?

01:03:18That's what,

01:03:19you know,

01:03:19that's what Paul

01:03:20calls you,

01:03:21you weren't an

01:03:22apostle.

01:03:22In my opinion,

01:03:24it's more like

01:03:24the Bible verse

01:03:25says,

01:03:26if you read

01:03:26the interlinear,

01:03:27indeed,

01:03:28there were some

01:03:28apostles,

01:03:29and today,

01:03:31and you know,

01:03:32back in that

01:03:32day,

01:03:33there were some

01:03:33prophets.

01:03:35There was

01:03:35an initial

01:03:37mission to

01:03:38spread the

01:03:38gospel,

01:03:39and so those

01:03:40offices,

01:03:41if you want

01:03:41to call

01:03:42them,

01:03:42I don't

01:03:42even call

01:03:43them an

01:03:43office.

01:03:43Yeah,

01:03:43I don't think

01:03:44they're offices,

01:03:45I think they're

01:03:45functions.

01:03:46They're functions.

01:03:47Those functions

01:03:48were necessary,

01:03:48and they were

01:03:49necessary for

01:03:50time.

01:03:50I don't see it

01:03:52as,

01:03:52I guess the

01:03:53best way for me

01:03:54to answer it

01:03:54is I don't

01:03:54see it as

01:03:55necessary,

01:03:56so I

01:03:56question the

01:03:58validity because

01:03:59it doesn't seem

01:04:00necessary.

01:04:01Yeah.

01:04:01See,

01:04:01I think you

01:04:02apostle,

01:04:03right?

01:04:04In other words,

01:04:05it's what you

01:04:06do.

01:04:06So,

01:04:07you know,

01:04:08I mean,

01:04:08you're an

01:04:09ambassador that

01:04:10leaves to go

01:04:11somewhere else to

01:04:12represent the

01:04:13kingdom of God.

01:04:14You're

01:04:14apostoling,

01:04:15right?

01:04:16You're

01:04:16prophesying.

01:04:17You know,

01:04:18one of the

01:04:18things that I'm

01:04:20always curious

01:04:21about is like,

01:04:22well,

01:04:22what did the

01:04:22church look like,

01:04:24the early church

01:04:25look like,

01:04:25right?

01:04:25Well,

01:04:26we know in

01:04:27Acts that they

01:04:28devoted themselves

01:04:29to the apostles'

01:04:31teaching and to

01:04:32fellowship and the

01:04:34breaking of bread and

01:04:35prayers.

01:04:35Pretty simple,

01:04:36right?

01:04:36So,

01:04:37you have this

01:04:37group of guys

01:04:38who were direct

01:04:41disciples,

01:04:42students of Jesus,

01:04:43they're apostles,

01:04:44and the reason

01:04:45we're listening to

01:04:46their teaching is

01:04:47they got it

01:04:48straight from

01:04:49Jesus,

01:04:50right?

01:04:51There isn't,

01:04:51there's not anybody

01:04:52between them.

01:04:53We got it straight

01:04:54from the source,

01:04:55right?

01:04:55So,

01:04:55that's why they're

01:04:56devoted to the

01:04:57apostles' teaching,

01:04:58which is synonymous

01:05:00with Jesus' teaching,

01:05:02right?

01:05:03Because he's not here,

01:05:04so therefore we got

01:05:05them.

01:05:06But then we also

01:05:07find that they're

01:05:09also going to the

01:05:10temple together,

01:05:12right?

01:05:12So,

01:05:13they're even,

01:05:14you know,

01:05:15again,

01:05:15this is a Jewish

01:05:16sect.

01:05:17Nobody's seeing this

01:05:18like it is today,

01:05:20you know,

01:05:21where it's a western,

01:05:22you know,

01:05:23European-American

01:05:24thing.

01:05:25This is a,

01:05:26you know,

01:05:26there's Pharisees,

01:05:29and there's Sadducees,

01:05:31and there are Essenes,

01:05:32and there's Christians,

01:05:34right?

01:05:34It's one of the sects

01:05:35of Judaism,

01:05:37right?

01:05:37So,

01:05:38it's not separate.

01:05:39But then,

01:05:39what do they do?

01:05:40But this is,

01:05:41this is where this verse

01:05:42always gets me.

01:05:43So,

01:05:43what shall we say,

01:05:45brothers and sisters?

01:05:45When you come together,

01:05:48each of you has a hymn,

01:05:50so it's somebody,

01:05:51you know,

01:05:51somebody,

01:05:52we have a song,

01:05:53we have music,

01:05:53or a word of instruction,

01:05:55right?

01:05:56An exhortation,

01:05:58a revelation,

01:05:59okay,

01:05:59prophetic,

01:06:00a tongue,

01:06:01or an interpretation,

01:06:03right?

01:06:03Which I think is,

01:06:05you know,

01:06:05that somebody came from

01:06:06Africa,

01:06:07and right,

01:06:07somebody,

01:06:08so there's all that,

01:06:10so that the church

01:06:11may be built up.

01:06:12Well,

01:06:12what's the church?

01:06:13There is no buildings.

01:06:14Buildings don't even come

01:06:15into,

01:06:18don't become a factor

01:06:19until the 300s

01:06:21when the Roman government

01:06:22out,

01:06:23you know,

01:06:23converts to Christianity

01:06:24and the old pagan temples

01:06:26become churches.

01:06:27So,

01:06:27again,

01:06:28we're meeting,

01:06:29right?

01:06:29So,

01:06:29again,

01:06:30what is this?

01:06:30There is no guy

01:06:32that's got a ministry

01:06:34that's standing up

01:06:36who's the center of attention

01:06:37who's hogging the whole thing.

01:06:39It's about a group of people

01:06:41coming together

01:06:41and each of them

01:06:44contributing to something.

01:06:45So,

01:06:46here,

01:06:46you know,

01:06:47I look at that

01:06:48and I go,

01:06:48look at where we started

01:06:50and where we are now

01:06:51with multi-million dollar

01:06:54ministry marketing systems.

01:06:55You know,

01:06:56you see the whole mess

01:06:57at Daystar,

01:06:58all these big institutional things

01:07:01that are just giant

01:07:02money-making machines,

01:07:04and it's like,

01:07:04we somehow lost

01:07:06our innocence here.

01:07:07We've gotten so far away

01:07:09from the,

01:07:10hey,

01:07:11when you get together,

01:07:12each of you come

01:07:13and bring something,

01:07:14right?

01:07:15Again,

01:07:15it gets back to community

01:07:16and that's where

01:07:17my heart really struggles

01:07:19in the modern church world

01:07:21is we've lost all that.

01:07:23It's not about we,

01:07:25it's about me.

01:07:26It's like this weird thing

01:07:28where,

01:07:29you know,

01:07:29and so,

01:07:30this is what's kind of crazy

01:07:31is we're sort of back,

01:07:33in one way,

01:07:34we've circled back

01:07:35to where,

01:07:36because there was only

01:07:37a few guys

01:07:38that had knowledge

01:07:39and could read and write,

01:07:41we defer to them.

01:07:41Now we're in the same situation.

01:07:43We all,

01:07:44even though we're all educated,

01:07:45we sit in church

01:07:46like little bobbleheads

01:07:47and we're little echoes

01:07:49and whatever pastor said,

01:07:50we just repeat.

01:07:52You know what I mean?

01:07:53In some ways,

01:07:53nothing's changed.

01:07:54Yeah,

01:07:55I mean,

01:07:56for me,

01:07:56that's the problem.

01:07:57The way that they have set up

01:07:58the five-fold ministry,

01:07:59you're looking to somebody else

01:08:01for their religion.

01:08:02You're not looking to

01:08:03build yourself up

01:08:04in your own religion.

01:08:05So,

01:08:06again,

01:08:07Peter Wagner had it,

01:08:08see,

01:08:08Peter Wagner had it right.

01:08:09It is a new religion.

01:08:10It is a new gospel.

01:08:12He gave it the wrong name,

01:08:14I think,

01:08:14but what he's describing

01:08:16is this is something

01:08:17that has developed

01:08:17from Christianity

01:08:18and now we have something new

01:08:20that the new word

01:08:22probably is correct,

01:08:23but what he's doing

01:08:24is he's saying

01:08:26that this is something

01:08:26that's new and different

01:08:28and not the same religion.

01:08:30I fully agree with this

01:08:32but my argument is

01:08:33we'll go back

01:08:34to the thing that's real

01:08:35and not go to the fake thing

01:08:36that exists.

01:08:37thank you so much

01:08:38for doing this.

01:08:39Peter Wagner Well,

01:08:39it's always fun

01:08:40talking to you

01:08:41because I learn,

01:08:42you know,

01:08:43you're just like

01:08:44a wealth of interesting information.

01:08:47So,

01:08:48I like picking your brain.

01:08:50Peter Wagner Well,

01:08:51I'm glad you do.

01:08:51hopefully somebody else

01:08:52enjoys it as well.

01:08:54If you've enjoyed our show

01:08:55and you want more information,

01:08:56you can check us out

01:08:57on the web.

01:08:57You can find us

01:08:58at william-branham.org.

01:09:00For more about the dark side

01:09:01of the new apostolic reformation,

01:09:02you can read

01:09:03Weaponized Religion

01:09:04from Christian Identity

01:09:05to the NAR.

01:09:06And for more about

01:09:07Mike Bickle

01:09:08and IHOPKC,

01:09:09you can read

01:09:10Some Said They Blundered,

01:09:11Breaking My Decades of Silence

01:09:12on Mike Bickle,

01:09:13the Kansas City Prophets,

01:09:15and the International

01:09:15House of Prayer.

01:09:16You can find us

The Five-Fold Ministry: How A Forgotten Idea Fueled The NAR | KCF | IHOPKC | Bob Scott | 560

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