- 3 days ago
John and Jed examine what “reform” actually looks like when high-profile charismatic leaders fall—and why so many systems reset without meaningful accountability. They compare restoration narratives, “season” language, and third-party investigations that protect institutions while survivors and congregations get managed.
Then they trace the deeper mechanics: hero worship, prophetic myth-making, independent “kingdom” structures, and the rebranding cycle that rewrites history instead of changing governance. The conversation ends with concrete markers of real change: removing unsafe leaders permanently, shifting control back to congregations, and rebuilding from the ground up.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 What Does Real Reform Look Like?
03:23 Leaders Vs. Congregations
04:20 Why Fallen Leaders Should Not Return
08:55 Bob Jones And The Failure Of “Restoration”
14:11 Reforming The System, Not Just The Person
16:42 Can IHOP Exist Without Mike Bickle?
18:21 “Don’t Look Back”: Narrative Control After Scandal
22:22 Can A Healthier Version Of The Model Exist?
25:28 Reforming The Culture And Mythology
28:40 Who Really Owns The Church?
31:39 Structural Problems In Independent Charismatic Ministries
35:40 Bullying, Anti-Questioning, And Thought Control
40:35 Are There Genuine People Inside These Systems?
43:26 “Reform” Often Means Rebrand
48:41 Bethel, Sean Bolz, And Public Apologies
57:59 Leaders As Victims Of The System
59:35 Final Thoughts On Structural Change
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Then they trace the deeper mechanics: hero worship, prophetic myth-making, independent “kingdom” structures, and the rebranding cycle that rewrites history instead of changing governance. The conversation ends with concrete markers of real change: removing unsafe leaders permanently, shifting control back to congregations, and rebuilding from the ground up.
00:00 Introduction
00:31 What Does Real Reform Look Like?
03:23 Leaders Vs. Congregations
04:20 Why Fallen Leaders Should Not Return
08:55 Bob Jones And The Failure Of “Restoration”
14:11 Reforming The System, Not Just The Person
16:42 Can IHOP Exist Without Mike Bickle?
18:21 “Don’t Look Back”: Narrative Control After Scandal
22:22 Can A Healthier Version Of The Model Exist?
25:28 Reforming The Culture And Mythology
28:40 Who Really Owns The Church?
31:39 Structural Problems In Independent Charismatic Ministries
35:40 Bullying, Anti-Questioning, And Thought Control
40:35 Are There Genuine People Inside These Systems?
43:26 “Reform” Often Means Rebrand
48:41 Bethel, Sean Bolz, And Public Apologies
57:59 Leaders As Victims Of The System
59:35 Final Thoughts On Structural Change
______________________
Weaponized Religion: From Christian Identity to the NAR:
Paperback: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1735160962
Kindle: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DCGGZX3K
______________________
– Support the channel: https://www.patreon.com/branham
– Subscribe to the channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSpezVG15TVG-lOYMRXuyQ
– Visit the website: https://william-branham.org
– Follow on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/WilliamBranhamOrg
– Follow on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@william.m.branham
– Follow on Twitter: https://twitter.com/wmbhr
– Buy the books: https://william-branham.org/site/books
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00:31Hello, welcome to another episode of the William Branham Historical Research Podcast.
00:00:36I'm your host, John Collins, the author and founder of William Branham Historical Research at william-branham.org.
00:00:42And with me, I have my co-host and friend, Jed Hartley, son of a false prophet and former member
00:00:47of the International House of Prayer.
00:00:50Jed, I've been wondering something, and I don't know if this may spawn off into a topic, it may not,
00:00:56but I've been listening to things that you've been telling me, things that Brantley's been telling me.
00:01:02I've had comments galore coming in off of all of the recent news with Bethel and just all of these
00:01:09different ministries.
00:01:10And I watch as a leader falls, it's like dominoes.
00:01:15One falls, then another, then another, then another.
00:01:18But in the game of dominoes, whenever you push the little domino and they all begin to fall down, they
00:01:24don't just stand right back up.
00:01:26And in this movement, sadly, what happens is these dominoes will fall and then they'll get right back up.
00:01:33And the word reform is sometimes used, sometimes they just stand up and they don't care.
00:01:38But in some cases, they say, we're going to reform, we're going to change things.
00:01:43And the thought, you know, I've been toying around with the idea of what reform looks like for a decade
00:01:51now.
00:01:51But I wanted to ask you what reform looks like.
00:01:54Because in my opinion, reform for somebody who, I've used this example before, I hate to run it into the
00:02:01ground, but reform for a schoolteacher that I just suddenly learned is teaching my children.
00:02:06And they happen to be an ex-convict with all kinds of very horrific crimes.
00:02:13And then suddenly they commit another crime.
00:02:17Well, for me, reform for this is they should never be in around children again.
00:02:22That's just something that you don't do.
00:02:24But in the Christian ministry, it's this weird thing because as a Christian, you believe in forgiveness.
00:02:30You believe God does forgive.
00:02:32So there has to be some sort of a Christian reform.
00:02:35That part I agree with.
00:02:37But what does reform actually look like?
00:02:39And again, I've toyed around with this thought for decades, almost a decade now since I've been doing my research.
00:02:46What would reform look like if a minister who was in a movement by a false prophet, for example, were
00:02:52to say, I'm sorry, I did not know this was a false prophet.
00:02:55I just suddenly learned every prophecy this guy had was fake.
00:02:59And I want to reform.
00:03:01How does he keep his church?
00:03:02Because I actually know ministers that have done this and I've watched their churches implode.
00:03:07So you've got this complex question.
00:03:09What does reform look like for an apostle, for a prophet, for a minister?
00:03:13And then what does it look like for the congregation?
00:03:15How should they accept reform?
00:03:18And I don't know that we can even answer this, but I want to try.
00:03:21I think it's a really good question.
00:03:24And, you know, to some extent, we're not going to be the ones answering it in a causal way.
00:03:31You know, I doubt Bethel, the Bethel board is going to be watching this video and being like, oh, OK,
00:03:37let's let's take these points.
00:03:39But a lot of people within the Bethel community and the IHOP community and the X, people who were once
00:03:47in those communities, obviously do listen.
00:03:51And that's where I'm coming from.
00:03:55And so I think that I think that you made a really good distinction because there's the reform of the
00:04:01pastors or the leaders who have fallen.
00:04:05And then there's the reform of the church or congregation.
00:04:08And I think that those are two very separate things.
00:04:13And my quick analysis is that the reformation of the pastors and the leaders, when we're talking about on the
00:04:27level of Mike Bickle, Bob Hartley, Bob Jones, Paul Kane, Sean Bowles, Chris Reid,
00:04:38these individuals who have fallen because of rampant deception, rampant prophetic abuse, I will say very clearly there is not
00:04:54reformation for these people within the context of being put back into leadership.
00:05:02There just isn't.
00:05:03There's no positive way that that can happen.
00:05:06I mean, I'm not saying that it won't happen where people will attempt to make this happen.
00:05:13But there is no healthy way in which these people can ever be restored to leaders of ministry just flat
00:05:21out.
00:05:22And that's like it.
00:05:22I know that some people might listening might think that that's a little harsh of a statement.
00:05:29I have seen it way too many times.
00:05:32Also, like just the way that you said it, too.
00:05:35If there's someone who is involved with child abuse, they can go and get, you know, if they go to
00:05:43prison.
00:05:44Like I've been a part of like both, like I taught philosophy at a prison class at Leavenworth Prison in
00:05:55Kansas.
00:05:56I was part of like prison ministries when I was younger and we would speak.
00:06:02And the whole idea was that the person themselves can be reformed and they can change.
00:06:07And I've seen dramatic transformations with people.
00:06:11But yes, still, if someone was involved with child abuse, you don't then put them in a position where they're
00:06:17leading children again.
00:06:19Like that's just that that path has been closed off for them.
00:06:23And I think that that's like a very concrete, clear thing that we can do as a society that makes
00:06:31sense.
00:06:32Like there's just no, regardless of whether you believe in the power of reform and people being able to change
00:06:39their ways,
00:06:41it is good practice to not let those who have abused individuals be back in systems in which they can
00:06:49abuse again.
00:06:50And that is exactly what we're having with the that's exactly the discussion with these pastors.
00:06:57Like, you know, there's the same thing as like my if someone has alcohol addiction, you don't they don't go
00:07:05in and become a bartender right after, you know, right after rehab that you don't put them in a position
00:07:13in which the abuses is readily and available for it.
00:07:20And I think specifically, even more so with this community of leaders, I want to I want to be even
00:07:30more so even more so than the people who go to prison for abuse and then come back out.
00:07:37Like, there's actual penance that have been paid, there is change, like there's structural things, there's consequences that people have
00:07:45encountered that cause a sort of reformation or cause like the need for change in someone's life.
00:07:54I have seen that with people who have gone to prison through these different ministries and like the teaching thing
00:08:05that I did.
00:08:05I've seen and talked with people about that sort of how that was going to prison, going encountering the consequences
00:08:17of their actions was a wake up call to them in their life of how their system, their way of
00:08:28operating,
00:08:28whether it was a single instance of a bad decision that that, you know, horrifically hurt someone or something like
00:08:36that, or whether it was long and more systematic, many decisions of poor decisions like there was this sort of
00:08:44impetus to change and recognize this is something that I'm capable of doing.
00:08:49How can I'm capable of doing how can I can change who I am so that I can change who
00:08:50I am so that I don't do this again?
00:08:52I have not once seen that with the reformation of these pastors.
00:08:58I mean, Bob Jones, when he fell and he was confronted, I know the people who are on the Bob
00:09:08Jones rehabilitation team because there were two of them were related to me.
00:09:13One was my uncle and one was my uncle and one was my dad and I heard them talk about
00:09:18the way that reformation rehabilitation went and how it was three years and how the story got changed and recontextualized.
00:09:32And I was just talking with my cousin not too long ago, and he grew up hearing some of the
00:09:38same stories I did, and I'm not even going to go into detail of it, but we both were reminiscing
00:09:45about how the Bob Jones story, where he had abused two women and used prophecy to get them to undress
00:09:54and then sexually abuse them, how that was.
00:09:57We were never told the story in those terms, how it was always, in fact, many times it was the
00:10:04women who were painted as the aggressors and he was the poor victim.
00:10:10Or one of the things that my cousin said, and my cousin's a little older than me, and so he
00:10:15had heard and experienced more of these stories, but he remembers it being Bob Jones that had a prophecy that
00:10:26if he ever stepped out of line sexually, that the Lord would kill him.
00:10:32That was the, that was, that he had gotten prophecies from the Lord that, you know, he would strike him
00:10:38down dead.
00:10:39And so he, the idea is that Bob Jones did this act because he was self-destructed and he wanted
00:10:47the Lord to kill him.
00:10:49This was, this is the, the story that my, my cousin was told.
00:10:53So the way that this was repainted was sort of like a moment, it had nothing really to do with
00:11:00sexual abuse or exploitation.
00:11:02It was this sort of low point in Bob Jones life where he was doing something that he knew was
00:11:08forbidden by God because he was suicidal or, or didn't want to continue on.
00:11:17And by the fact that God did not strike him down, it's sort of reaffirmed that he, God is like
00:11:24still wanting him to do good things on this earth.
00:11:27And there was a whole story too, about how Bob Jones had died and gone to hell and resurrected.
00:11:33And so this was, this was not the first time that this sort of rhetoric was being used with the
00:11:39Bob Jones story of like, God has put him on this earth.
00:11:42So even his testimony of how he abused someone was re filtered and used as a testimony to reaffirm his
00:11:56sort of anointing by God.
00:11:59So all this to say, these men who go through these processes of rehabilitation and restoration are, from my eyes,
00:12:11never repented, never actually understand what they do, how horrific it is, how destructive it is.
00:12:19Never once really actually come to terms with it publicly.
00:12:26And in doing so, when they are then restored to ministry, they're just going to have the same type of
00:12:33ministry that they had before.
00:12:35They're just going to be more careful and maybe they won't actually, because they didn't get, they kind of got
00:12:41away with it.
00:12:41So what is the actual impetus for them to change if, you know, they get a two year sabbatical and
00:12:51come back to doing the same thing they did?
00:12:56I think the Jimmy Baker, I think is a good example of this, where there was this huge scandal that
00:13:04happened.
00:13:04And then I think it was the 90s, and I mean, really horrific scandal.
00:13:12And you see him now, he's had a career for 40, 50 years since then, where he is selling COVID
00:13:25miracle curing drugs on his website, doing, talking about the end times and prophesying.
00:13:35I mean, he's just doing the same deceptive techniques that he did when he was young.
00:13:41There isn't actually any change.
00:13:45I'm a person who believes that people can change, and they can change for the good.
00:13:51Even the worst cases that, if you read through the Roy's report, there are some very horrific individuals out there.
00:13:57I think even the worst of the worst can change for the better.
00:14:01Does that mean that I think they should be back in the ministry when they do?
00:14:05I don't think so.
00:14:06I think that's not even a point that should be argued.
00:14:10The question comes from me.
00:14:13It's more to the point of you're in a movement that really enables these predators.
00:14:20You're in a movement that enables harm.
00:14:23And like you just gave a perfect example.
00:14:26So, yes, they don't cause harm in the one particular area.
00:14:30But then they go and they do the COVID thing, or there's all kinds of different gimmicks and scams.
00:14:35And so you take a person who's got a problem.
00:14:40Maybe they did rehabilitate.
00:14:41Maybe they didn't.
00:14:42But then that type of mentality, they continue on to other problems.
00:14:47And that's just not a person who's really fit for the ministry.
00:14:50And I think that's the key phrase.
00:14:51Because in this movement, there is no term fit for the ministry that really applies.
00:14:57Fit for the ministry is a temporary thing in this type of movement.
00:15:02And in many other denominations, it's one strike, you're out.
00:15:06You can't do this, man.
00:15:07You can't do this to people and then expect we're going to put you back in a platform.
00:15:12Now, you can still be a Christian.
00:15:13You can still come and attend a service.
00:15:16But the problem is reform for me isn't about the person.
00:15:22It's about the framework that allowed that person to do what they did.
00:15:27Usually in this type of movement, that framework was hero worship.
00:15:32Because they're a hero, our movement can't survive without this person.
00:15:36So they may fall for a period of time, but we've got to lift them back up or we don't
00:15:41have a movement.
00:15:42And when you think of it like that, there is no way not to think of it as a cult
00:15:48because it is centered around a human being.
00:15:52So the question becomes for me, and this may be a question for another podcast, reform for me, you almost
00:16:00have to take into consideration the cult aspect.
00:16:03If this group can reform, can they reform without the leader?
00:16:08You totally anticipated where I was going with this, too, because I think that you cannot have the reformation of
00:16:17both the leader and the ministry because the ministry and the leader were led in such a way that abuse
00:16:26happened.
00:16:27And so, you know, it's like you can't have that vehicle being driven by that same driver again because it'll
00:16:35inevitably be driven back to the same place.
00:16:40It'll still do the same things.
00:16:42And so then there's this question of, well, what about Bethel Church?
00:16:48What about IHOP?
00:16:50What about Morningstar?
00:16:51If we remove the abusive people who are in leadership of those communities?
00:16:57Let's use IHOP because there has been an abusive leader who has been removed from that ministry quite presently.
00:17:06And for the International House of Prayer, is there such thing as reformation for the International House of Prayer?
00:17:17Now, I think I've said this in previous episodes, and I will say it clear here.
00:17:23I don't think that there is.
00:17:25In fact, I will state quite confidently.
00:17:28IHOP is not at the place because it cannot be separated from Mike Bickle and not just Mike Bickle, but
00:17:37Bob Jones and the other sort of abusers who built that system.
00:17:43You can see it now, and we've talked about this too, of they are trying to extract the name of
00:17:52Mike Bickle while carrying the legacy of Mike Bickle within their identity.
00:18:00And it's super weird, super creepy, but all of their rhetoric on their websites and what they're saying from the
00:18:11pulpit is a mixture of, hey, to the congregation, don't look online.
00:18:18Like, let's avoid even thinking about this.
00:18:21Right after the scandal broke with Mike Bickle, this was back in 2023, the first message that they had, they
00:18:33had Chris Reed come to their Sunday service.
00:18:38And Chris Reed, I remember seeing this live, like I watched it live.
00:18:43Chris Reed spoke a message about Lot's wife and the idea of don't turn your head, don't look to the
00:18:54past.
00:18:55And there was a lot of, like, misogynist rhetoric, too, about this woman who looked back.
00:19:02And he hit it really hard where it was like, don't listen to the women who are looking back, stay
00:19:08forward, otherwise God will turn you into a pillar of salt.
00:19:12And it was, sometimes I actually appreciate some of these ministers being so explicit about what they believe because, I
00:19:23mean, it's a perfect encapsulation of what the rhetoric is.
00:19:28So, like, I couldn't have come up with a better metaphor, like, they truly are saying, do not look at
00:19:34things, do not turn around, do not evaluate what went wrong at IHOP or what went wrong with Mike Bickle.
00:19:43God is saying so.
00:19:45And if you do, you'll be turned into a pillar of salt.
00:19:48Like, it's so clear and specific.
00:19:50And then Chris Reed, in that same year, gets exposed for his own sexual scandal and how he was very
00:20:02similarly, perhaps not to the scale of Mike Bickle,
00:20:06but he had a student who he was a pastor over and a teacher over who he was having an
00:20:16affair with and was manipulating through his position as a minister.
00:20:22So, surprise, surprise, the man who's saying don't look back also has skeletons in his closet right behind him.
00:20:30So, the rhetoric of IHOP has been this, don't look back, don't look online, don't you dare listen to people
00:20:39like John Collins, of course not, like, can't be hearing anything from the outside world.
00:20:47And then they rebranded what the history of IHOP was.
00:20:53So, they're like, don't look back, here we'll tell you what happened.
00:20:57And they have this new history of IHOP written on their webpage that talks about how a ragtag bunch of
00:21:05people decided to get together one day as if it was something that wasn't years and years of planning and
00:21:12as if it wasn't like a megachurch that was sponsoring the entire inception of the International House of Prayer.
00:21:20But anyway, they rewrite their narrative and then, in every paragraph, they talk about prophecies and they use prophetic language
00:21:32that was straight from the mouth of Mike Bickle and Bob Jones.
00:21:35And so, those prophecies still are interwoven into the fabric of the church's identity.
00:21:43So, if there's a question of, can this ministry reform without these abusive leaders?
00:21:54It clearly is no.
00:21:57Like, that's, IHOP clearly is not going to do it.
00:21:59If it was to happen, I'm not saying that there couldn't be some, you know, 24-hour house of prayer
00:22:07type ministry that couldn't be good and healthy.
00:22:11I mean, I think that there's problems with anything that arises in this sort of community.
00:22:17But I think that there is sort of a spectrum of healthy and I think that there could be a
00:22:24sort of healthy-ish version of the IHOP model insofar as the 24-hour house of prayer where people, I
00:22:33think I made this joke before on this podcast, but it's not really a joke.
00:22:37If IHOP was more like the pancake place than the prayer room place, it would be actually a pretty good
00:22:42place where people could come and get spiritually fed 24 hours a day and, like, have a place where, you
00:22:50know, people are safe, a sort of sanctuary.
00:22:53I think that makes sense and I understand why people like that idea.
00:22:57But that's not what IHOP is and it clearly isn't because they are the tendrils of Mike Bickle and Bob
00:23:08Jones and others are still clearly throughout the rhetoric and system itself.
00:23:16And they expect people not to notice because they maintain such a level of control over their congregants and when
00:23:26they don't have control over their congregants, they excommunicate them.
00:23:30And that's just the, so this is all cult stuff.
00:23:34And so can you reform a cult?
00:23:36Well, no, not like this because it is built, I think that I love what you're saying, distinction about hero
00:23:45worship, like they are still deifying their heroes.
00:23:50They still have this, the words and the message and the vision of the abusive founders are still the heartbeat
00:24:03of the organization.
00:24:04And while that person's face is no longer being deified in the way that it was, which also means, like,
00:24:13I don't think, I think they're going to lose numbers because cults need, so until someone else comes up and
00:24:19supplants that position, and it becomes a new pseudo Mike Bickle, or until Mike Bickle comes back, because let's face
00:24:28it, that is absolutely within the realm of possibility.
00:24:33I mean, I hope it's going to be kind of struggling to build this congregation.
00:24:41But yeah, the whole thing needs to be torn down and abolished 100%.
00:24:49And I think that 90% of people who were within that ministry for over the past few decades would
00:25:01probably agree with that.
00:25:02Maybe not 90%, maybe not 90%, but certainly, I would say, certainly more than 50%.
00:25:07I think that the majority of people who have come from the International House of Prayer, who not just like
00:25:14visited, but were actually on staff there or part of it, recognize that, oh, this is, this is horrific.
00:25:22I will say, easily, 90% of the children who grew up in that community are like, yeah, get rid
00:25:28of this.
00:25:28Reformed for me is really, it comes down to a reform of the culture.
00:25:34It took me a long time, many years, actually, to come to terms with the fact that the culture we
00:25:41were in wasn't really quite Christian, but yet it used the phrase Christianity and used the name Jesus.
00:25:49So, a Christian, their mythology is the mythology of Jesus Christ.
00:25:54And I'm using the word mythology.
00:25:55I know it's going to offend the crowd, but understand what I'm trying to say here.
00:25:59There is a mythology that surrounds a god if you're worshiping a god.
00:26:05In Christianity, you believe that mythology to be true.
00:26:09So, in mythology, Christianity is the life stories, the events in the life of Jesus, the things that you can
00:26:18read in the Bible.
00:26:18And that's why we have a Bible, so that you can read more about Jesus.
00:26:22You can understand what the Christians believe as their mythology, which, again, Christians believe it to be true.
00:26:28That can be said of every ancient religion.
00:26:31If you wanted to study the mythology of Zeus, the followers of Zeus believed it to be true.
00:26:36That's how you worship a deity.
00:26:40Now, take the culture that has been created by this movement long before IHOPKC.
00:26:47Branhamism, we had the same thing.
00:26:48Go back in time.
00:26:50Daoism had the same thing.
00:26:51Go before him.
00:26:52Almost as far back as you can go in history, you're going to find somebody who has created a mythology.
00:26:59Calling it Christian, but the mythology was about themselves or the people working with them.
00:27:05So, in Branhamism, we had what we called the life stories.
00:27:10And this would be what, in IHOPKC, you called your prophetic history.
00:27:14In the life stories, it's talking about how all of this came together, how the movement began, the spiritual experiences
00:27:21of Branham, the prophecies, etc.
00:27:24Every single destructive cult that I've looked at, they have something similar.
00:27:28What is it?
00:27:29It's their mythology.
00:27:31And that mythology is not focused on Jesus.
00:27:36It's focused on the individual.
00:27:37But it's very tricky because in the Christian cults, they focus their mythology on the individual who is an intermediator.
00:27:48Basically, here's the experience that taught us about Jesus, and therefore we know Jesus.
00:27:52So, it's like going through this person.
00:27:55When you do this, and you form a group, like I said earlier, if you take that person away, what's
00:28:00left?
00:28:02Why would you not just go to a normal denominational church?
00:28:04Why would you not go to any church?
00:28:06I don't need this person.
00:28:08Then why am I here?
00:28:09It's basically the question, right?
00:28:11So, it really comes down to a reform as a reformer of the culture.
00:28:14If your religion requires the person or persons who are on this platform to be there, then your religion really
00:28:23isn't Christianity.
00:28:24It's Bickel-anity.
00:28:26It's Branham-anity.
00:28:27It is not Christianity.
00:28:30So, for me, reform looks like that.
00:28:32But take it a step further.
00:28:35This is where it gets really odd for me.
00:28:37And I can't really put into words.
00:28:40I would have to do some deep studies into the government, you know, the laws that are surrounding this.
00:28:48But in most churches, the churches are owned by the people.
00:28:53And if you go out into the middle of the country and you find this little church with the little
00:28:57steeple on the hill,
00:28:58and you go and walk into that church, it will have a pastor.
00:29:01And the pastor may have been there for all his life.
00:29:04But it's still owned by the people.
00:29:06And if the people were to all vote and say, we don't want that guy, kick him out, then they
00:29:11would vote in a new person.
00:29:12And the new person would take over the church.
00:29:14No harm done.
00:29:15The minister who was kicked out may actually attend that church.
00:29:18And I think I have seen that happen a few times.
00:29:21So what happens is the church is owned by the people.
00:29:24The people are the ones who are governing what's happening on the platform, right?
00:29:29They all want Jesus.
00:29:31They want a teacher that's teaching Jesus.
00:29:33And they're the bottom – they're the end-all, say-all as it relates to the church.
00:29:39But in the modern ministries that we're talking about, whenever a leadership has a problem, they go get a third
00:29:45party to come evaluate, right?
00:29:48Not even the people who are saying, wait, we have a problem.
00:29:52They go outside of this and they bring in a third party to investigate.
00:29:56The third party collaborates with the very ministry that's trying to stay in power.
00:30:00And so you have this unusual collaboration that isn't really – it isn't really owned and governed by the people.
00:30:09And so the question comes down to the documentation of the church.
00:30:12Do the people really own the church?
00:30:15Probably not.
00:30:16Otherwise, that would have never happened.
00:30:19The outside party would be working with the congregation, not with the leadership.
00:30:23So you've got this weird thing where the culture is the problem, the mythology empowers the leader, the church is
00:30:31no longer owned by the people, so they don't have any decision, and the accountability has just – it has
00:30:37completely disappeared.
00:30:38Have you ever wondered how the Pentecostal movement started, or how the progression of modern Pentecostalism transitioned through the latter
00:30:47reign, charismatic, and other fringe movements into the New Apostolic Reformation?
00:30:52You can learn this and more on William Branham Historical Research's website, william-branham.org.
00:31:00On the books page of the website, you can find the compiled research of John Collins, Charles Paisley, Stephen Montgomery,
00:31:08John McKinnon, and others, with links to the paper, audio, and digital versions of each book.
00:31:14You can also find resources and documentation on various people and topics related to those movements.
00:31:20If you want to contribute to the cause, you can support the podcast by clicking the Contribute button at the
00:31:26top.
00:31:27And as always, be sure to like and subscribe to the audio or video version that you're listening to or
00:31:33watching.
00:31:33On behalf of William Branham Historical Research, we want to thank you for your support.
00:31:38I think that the question, like, okay, so who leads the body?
00:31:42Is it the head or the body itself?
00:31:45Like, who is directing the movement of the organization?
00:31:55And I think that we're getting at some of the fundamental structural issues that undermine genuine reformation of these communities.
00:32:08Because, I mean, this just goes back to all of some of the major pitfalls of new apostolic reformation churches.
00:32:16They are not a part of a larger congregation.
00:32:19So, you can't have someone from a different church community but in the same denomination come and look and bring
00:32:36a sense of accountability there because they're all non-denominational independent churches.
00:32:41And they're structured that way, that they are all kings of their little castles, which that's – I've used that
00:32:48metaphor before and I think it's very apt because they really are, like, structured as little kingdoms.
00:32:55And all of these different little rulers of their kingdoms are very much beholden only to themselves.
00:33:07So, there's that structural issue.
00:33:10There's the doctrinal structural issue of where is the sort of longer discipline of the faith that they come out
00:33:22of.
00:33:22Like, you were talking about their doctrine really is Mike Bickle doctrine.
00:33:27It's William Branham doctrine.
00:33:29It's Bob Jones, Bill Johnson doctrine.
00:33:33Like, these are not long sort of traditions of, like, okay, we come from a Baptist community and this is
00:33:41the sort of historical precedent for the ways that this community has lived and these are the tenets that we
00:33:48have held since, you know, 1885 when this church was first founded or something like that.
00:33:56There isn't that sort of historical foothold.
00:34:02And even more so of that just not being the case, it's actually structured in a way in which there
00:34:11is never going to be a historical foothold of these types of churches unless, of course, they change the very
00:34:19structure of the church.
00:34:20But, like, Bethel is not going to have a core doctrine ever because it is malleable.
00:34:28It is based off of who the charismatic leader is that is their leader at the time, whether it's Bill
00:34:38Johnson or Bill Johnson stepping down.
00:34:40And is it going to be Chris Felton?
00:34:41Is it going to be, you know, who else?
00:34:43Who else?
00:34:44What is it going to sort of absorb around?
00:34:49I mean, Bethel's doctrine is fuzzy at best.
00:34:52If you go there, there's a lot of people who are very critical of Bethel simply because, like, there's a
00:34:58lot of New Age rhetoric and weird.
00:35:02I mean, Betty Johnson herself was a huge proponent of a lot of, like, New Age Christian healings with crystals
00:35:11and with frequencies and vibrations and stuff like that.
00:35:16And so, you know, maybe that won't be a thing in 10 years.
00:35:20Maybe that will be more of a thing in 10 years.
00:35:22It's not structured in a way that there actually needs to be this, like, hey, when you come here, you
00:35:30know what you're getting.
00:35:30No, it very much is like, well, we're going to move where the spirit leads us.
00:35:35I mean, quite literally, that's the doctrine that they have.
00:35:39And IHOP was a similar way, they shrouded it in this air of arrogancy and of intellectualism, which I, this
00:35:52always boils my blood whenever I think back to, like, I was a young thinker trying to ask questions and
00:36:03trying to ascertain the logic of the system that I'm growing up in.
00:36:07And, like, quite genuinely trying to do so so that I can contribute and be a part of this system
00:36:13and was constantly belittled and demeaned by people who were in teacher leadership there because, so this was both during
00:36:28my high school and we would take college classes at IHOPU.
00:36:37So, Dave Slyker is one of the individuals who would do this.
00:36:41I remember how he would teach and just bully young thinkers because they would ask questions.
00:36:50And it wasn't questions, like, if I'm teaching a math class, which I do, that's what I, that's my job.
00:36:56And one of the students is like, you know, Mr. Hartley, I don't understand the quadratic formula because, like, I
00:37:04don't understand where it came from and where, you know, am I going to belittle them?
00:37:09Am I going to talk down to them?
00:37:12Am I going to be impatient with them because they don't understand what I'm talking about?
00:37:17No, I'm going to talk about swearing the root and I'm going to talk about where it came from and
00:37:22I'm going to try my best to explain it to them and I'm going to be empathetic and be like,
00:37:26yeah, it's confusing.
00:37:27And a lot of people, you know, this was a miracle when it was first invented.
00:37:32And so, like, you know, respect their process as like a young thinker and young learner.
00:37:38And not only was this just like arrogance and Dave Seiker being a bad teacher, it was structurally so that
00:37:47he needed to be because there was not any scaffolding.
00:37:52There isn't a teach them how to complete the square to derive the formula because there is no derivation of
00:37:59this formula because these men were not as smart as they were pretending to be.
00:38:04And we're not as enlightened and we're not some transcendent thinkers who had been touched by God, who bridged the
00:38:12gaps that us mortal individuals could not also bridge.
00:38:17They just had beliefs that were totally inconsistent and they use bullying as a method of training their young individuals
00:38:29to not ask questions about the scaffolding of their very belief system.
00:38:35So the only people who rose to power were the ones who were not curious, the ones who didn't ask
00:38:41questions about this, didn't really care about the scaffolding for it because it doesn't work.
00:38:48It's not as built on quicksand like it is going to shift and it's going to fall and then they'll
00:38:54just build up a new, you know, version, which is exactly what IHOP did.
00:38:58It's like you see the tearing down of the legacy of IHOP and they're like, well, let's just rewrite it
00:39:04and tell people it was this and then tell them if they turn around and look back, they'll turn into
00:39:09salt.
00:39:09It's just such a, it's such an abusive, feeble tactic, so clearly seen as devious and as underhanded, but yet
00:39:27it works because as long as there are impressionable young adults to manipulate, it will continue to feed on them
00:39:38and whatnot.
00:39:39So when we, when we talk about the structure that for reformation, I mean, you, you really got to talk
00:39:50about like, you got to start from the beginning, you got to build it from the ground up.
00:39:56And with something like IHOP, it's like you, if you look at it as a building and the entire foundation
00:40:05is rotten, not just rotten, like there's mold and actual safety hazard stuff.
00:40:12It's like, okay, well, the land that we built on might be able to be salvaged, but the structure itself
00:40:20has to be demolished.
00:40:21Like there's no put a new paint job, maybe put in some more support beams and call it square.
00:40:29It's, we have to bulldoze and we have to rebuild from the ground up.
00:40:35And I, I think the, the question then, and where I would kind of want to turn and be like,
00:40:43well, let's talk about the, the land that we build on.
00:40:47And this is where I probably diverge from even some of the listeners here, because like, I, I appreciate the
00:40:59people who were a part of these organizations.
00:41:03Not necessarily that I agree with them or that it's a good expression of Christianity, but like, I genuinely believe
00:41:11that at IHOP, at Bethel, especially actually at YWAM, I feel there was a higher concentration of people who were
00:41:23wanting to do good on earth.
00:41:26Um, and who are willing to sacrifice, um, and who are willing to sacrifice their own safety, their own, um,
00:41:34wealth, their own, um, security in order to better the world.
00:41:42Um, whether that looked like volunteering in more humanitarian causes, oftentimes it was, is less that and more evangelical, um,
00:41:55like evangelizing.
00:41:56In nature and proselytizing nature, but at the heart of it, I do think that there are a lot of
00:42:02people who want to have a sort of mystical Christian, um, doctrine and be a part of a sort of
00:42:13experience in which they are trying their best to bring heaven on earth in a way that I don't think
00:42:20is as nearly as insidious and dominionistic as like, um, the leadership.
00:42:26It is, but in a genuine sense of like, I want to leave this place better than I found it.
00:42:31I want to have peace, kindness, love, empathy, joy.
00:42:35I want to spread that to the people around me.
00:42:37And I want to dedicate my life to the pursuit of doing that.
00:42:42And this is why like the conversation about reformation and restoration of these churches, I think is more complicated than
00:42:51just blow it all up and get rid of all of these things.
00:42:55Because I do think that there's the question of, there are these genuine people and is, is there any genuine
00:43:01expression to this sort of type of thing that they gravitate to it?
00:43:06Or is it all hero worship?
00:43:08And I honestly, I don't know.
00:43:10I would love to hear what you think, John, about that.
00:43:12But like, is there, is there a version of Bethel that maybe isn't perfect?
00:43:20Well, certainly it's not perfect.
00:43:21I won't even make that the standard, but is healthier.
00:43:26You mentioned the word bullying and I'm getting to your question, but you mentioned the word bullying.
00:43:30And I got to thinking, it's not just the bullying, it's also the mind control elements somewhat support it, which
00:43:37is how I want to head towards the Bethel question.
00:43:40So there's this problem of loaded language.
00:43:44I had a conversation recently with a person they were talking about.
00:43:48You can almost spot a person who's in this type of movement just simply by the phrases they use.
00:43:55One of the phrases is, for a season.
00:43:58I started laughing so hard because I can just put faces to that.
00:44:03People who say, we had a really, really hard time for a season.
00:44:08And it's usually just those people who are indoctrinated in this type of movement that say these things.
00:44:15And that's not problematic at all.
00:44:17That's just a phrase people use.
00:44:19But now take that phrase and apply it to the leadership.
00:44:22I'm in Bethel and we have this leadership for a season.
00:44:26And then something happened and then the season changed.
00:44:30So people are mentally taking passages of time, decades of time, and saying that was season one.
00:44:38This horrific thing happened because of the leadership.
00:44:42And then it happens again because it's a different season.
00:44:46And the season has changed, basically.
00:44:49So you've got this indoctrinated mentality that, yes, this terrible, terrible thing happened.
00:44:55But that was spring.
00:44:56Now it is fall.
00:44:58So we're changing seasons.
00:44:59But we're going to keep the same leadership.
00:45:02And so where you end up with is – the bottom line for me is this.
00:45:07Whenever they use the word reform in any of these statements that they issue, et cetera,
00:45:13my mind doesn't actually read that word.
00:45:16What I read instead is we're going to rebrand because our branding was for the spring.
00:45:22Now we're branding for another season.
00:45:24It's the fall.
00:45:25And, yes, we had all of these leaders who fell.
00:45:28And so we're going to rebrand with a new season.
00:45:31And we're going to completely distract you with our new branding so that you don't think about that season that
00:45:37came before.
00:45:38And it really all comes down to the indoctrination because, again, if it was one of these normal churches where
00:45:46the people are the ones who make the decisions,
00:45:48the body of the church, the congregation, the one who pays for the lights to come on in the building,
00:45:54they would say, no, no, no, no.
00:45:55You're not going to rebrand.
00:45:57You're not going to keep the same people.
00:45:58These people are a problem.
00:45:59And they enabled these other people to be a problem.
00:46:02We want all those people out.
00:46:05If the church could do this, then it would be a healthy church.
00:46:09And the church would be able to – so let's change it a bit.
00:46:14What if instead – what if they did this?
00:46:16What if they rebranded, called it Reformed, but instead we're going to rebrand and we're going to change it so
00:46:24that we want everybody in this seat to critically think.
00:46:27We want everybody in this seat who – if you're out in the audience, we want you to hold us
00:46:32accountable.
00:46:33And if we're not, we want you to vote us out and get somebody else who's in here.
00:46:37If we have some sort of a scandal, we want you to be the ones who contact the third parties
00:46:44and you make the decisions whether we stay or not.
00:46:47What if that was the rebranding?
00:46:49What would happen in churches like these?
00:46:51You'd be changing the actual bones of the church for them because that's – see, this is the thing.
00:46:59That's not what they think is the problem.
00:47:01They don't think that it's that level of accountability of like, hey, if we're not – thinking critically even.
00:47:08Like, if we're just at the place of being like, well, let's think – I want everybody in here to
00:47:16think critically.
00:47:17Like, that's not – that is not Bethel's MO.
00:47:20And so, you're – the term of rebranding, I mean, I think that's a very apt way of saying it.
00:47:32It being a measure of like, not a season of restoration, a season of rebranding.
00:47:37That's really what a lot of these are.
00:47:40And sticking with the, you know, house metaphor, there are foundational issues that are the problem in all of these
00:47:54churches.
00:47:54Not just IHOP, but Bethel, Morningstar.
00:47:58I mean, they're not all the same foundational issues, but many of them are very similar.
00:48:04And it isn't just that the leader of the organization was sexually abusing young women.
00:48:11Like, that is part of the symptoms of what was going on at IHOP.
00:48:16But that is not the structural foundational issue at International House of Prayer.
00:48:21And at Bethel, same thing.
00:48:24They're foundational issues.
00:48:30Any restoration, any voting, they vote out Bill Johnson and Chris Vallotton.
00:48:38I'm getting a little distracted here.
00:48:40But, like, recently Chris Vallotton and Bill Johnson released a video where they apologized for the handling of the Chambola
00:48:52situation.
00:48:52Which, I know I'm diverging thoughts here, but I'll get back to it.
00:48:58But just to talk about that for a second.
00:49:02So, for people who haven't seen the video, there was a very genuine apology that both Bill and Chris gave.
00:49:15And I don't think that it was performatively genuine.
00:49:18And, like, I genuinely think that I really appreciated the tone of their apology and the content of their apology.
00:49:30In some respects, there were some big issues.
00:49:32But basically, Chris and Bill got up there and said, we messed up.
00:49:38We betrayed our congregation.
00:49:43We elevated someone who was not safe.
00:49:47And then we did not warn the congregation when we knew that he was not safe.
00:49:53And Chris was like, I've had a recent change of heart about this.
00:49:59And it seemed like he had kind of seen the light of being, recognizing, oh, my goodness, I really messed
00:50:08up here.
00:50:10But it was really hard.
00:50:11I don't think, John, you and I have talked about this.
00:50:15Have you seen, did you see that video, John?
00:50:18I did.
00:50:19Yeah.
00:50:19So, you know, you tell me what you think and whether or not you felt like it was genuine or
00:50:25not.
00:50:25But, I mean, to me, it came across as very genuine, which made it all the worse for me in
00:50:32some respects, because they have not taken that stance with my father.
00:50:38And my father is like a very parallel situation with Sean Bowles, like almost identical in some respects.
00:50:47I don't understand how they can see the light with Sean Bowles and not see the light with Bob Hartley.
00:50:53And it might just have to do with the fact that there was a Michael Wiener video that was six
00:50:57hours long that was way more in detail about Sean Bowles.
00:51:01There was also one about my dad, too.
00:51:03But, like, I think that there was a lot of pressure on Chris and Bill to say something about Sean
00:51:12Bowles.
00:51:13So I'd be fascinated to know what their philosophy is on why they haven't reached out to me or haven't
00:51:20spoken publicly about my dad.
00:51:22Because if they had taken the same tone, so this is why it was hard for me to see, they
00:51:30are apologizing and they are saying many of the same things.
00:51:34Like, I had a phone call with Chris Vallison right before I sort of publicly exposed my father for the
00:51:43things that he was doing and put pressure on Bethel.
00:51:46Or maybe it was right after I had started doing that.
00:51:48But I had a phone call with Chris Vallison, and he gave me this line of, like, we understand that
00:51:57your dad's doing these bad things, but, like, what are we to do about it?
00:52:00He's not our, he doesn't work for us.
00:52:05It goes back to that sort of independent ministry.
00:52:08Like, he's an itinerant minister.
00:52:10Like, he does his own thing.
00:52:11We're not on his board.
00:52:12We don't get to tell him what to do.
00:52:13Um, and I was very clearly like, you gave him the platform that he has.
00:52:20You are the reason why people are coming to his house so that he can have these prophetic meetings, especially
00:52:31in Bethel.
00:52:31Like, he had had some prestige outside of Bethel, but, um, especially in Reading.
00:52:36Like, when he was living in Reading, he was holding Bible studies.
00:52:39And if he was not a famous person at Bethel Church, there wouldn't be people showing up at his door,
00:52:46but they were showing up in droves.
00:52:47And so, I mean, he, Bethel was the reason that my dad got such a grand level of prestige.
00:52:55Um, and I told that very clearly and saliently to Chris Vallotton and just nothing like from him.
00:53:04He didn't agree.
00:53:05And he was like, your dad's going to do whatever he wants.
00:53:08We can't control him.
00:53:09And so, that led me to having to speak out publicly because I felt like they weren't going to do
00:53:15anything.
00:53:16So, I, my father's son, um, I had to get online and talk about the sins of my father and
00:53:24how my father was a dangerous man and how that people of the, the, um, Reading community and the Bethel
00:53:31community and the IOP community need to not go to his, um, Bible studies.
00:53:37And need to, you know, be warned that he is actively praying on people.
00:53:44Um, and like, that's, you know, I've, I've come to terms and come to peace with the fact that I
00:53:50did that and I had to do that.
00:53:52And, but like, had Bethel, it had Chris Vallotton understood what I was talking to him back then.
00:54:01And he had come to see the light when I was even talking to him.
00:54:06I would have never had to like publicly talk about my dad.
00:54:09I would probably still have a modicum of relationship with my father.
00:54:13Like, I don't know if that would be a good thing, but, um, like my life has forever changed because
00:54:21these men were not able to come to terms with the reality of the world that they had built.
00:54:27And now I see a flash of them on stage recognizing, oh my goodness, we messed up.
00:54:36And Chris, there's a clip in the video where Chris almost identically uses the same language that I told to
00:54:45him.
00:54:45I don't know if it's coincidence.
00:54:47I don't know if he actually heard what I said, or I don't know.
00:54:51Um, but he says, he kind of talks about with Sean Bowles.
00:54:58He was like, well, at first I was like, well, he's not our minister.
00:55:01And the same thing that he said about my dad, like we, we don't get to tell him what to
00:55:06do.
00:55:07Um, and then he, Chris is like, but then I thought about it and we put him, we elevated him.
00:55:15We put him in the position.
00:55:16We gave him his mantle or said something to that respect.
00:55:20And it was almost identical to what I had said about what they did with my dad.
00:55:24And I, it was comforting in one sense of like, yeah, that's exactly what I wanted Chris to come to
00:55:32terms with.
00:55:33And like, this is a good revelation that they're coming terms with.
00:55:38But one, it's too little, too late.
00:55:41Two, is it actually, are they understanding the actual scope of it?
00:55:47Because it's not just a Sean Bowles thing.
00:55:49It's almost worse.
00:55:50It's almost worse than if they had just been like, hey, don't look back.
00:55:56There's the pillar of salt.
00:55:58Like, you'll turn into it.
00:55:59Um, I, it's better.
00:56:01It's better because at least they're recognizing the truth of what's going on.
00:56:07Um, but like, is there going to be reformation?
00:56:10Are they going to actually then say, it's like, they're looking at their scaffolding and seeing the rock,
00:56:17seeing the mold that is in their house.
00:56:20And they're like, wow, man, we messed up.
00:56:25Anyway, let's, um, let's have, let's collect funds for our next, you know, like they literally had an offering right
00:56:35after this.
00:56:35Um, so it's like, I, are they going to actually structurally change things to make it so prophets cannot just
00:56:48read off an iPad and manipulate people in their congregation?
00:56:52Are they going to make it so that if individuals, um, uh, commit sexual abuse, that there is a measure
00:57:00of like public accountability for these things?
00:57:03Are there going, are Chris and Bill going to step down?
00:57:07Is, is Bill Johnson going to say, Hey, my inability to see the flaws of the people who I consider
00:57:14my friends makes me a really actually bad shepherd of a community.
00:57:21And so therefore I shouldn't protect the flock.
00:57:24If I cannot see the sheep or sorry, if I cannot see the wolves, like, is he going to step
00:57:31down?
00:57:31Is Chris Fallatin going to recognize like, okay, I messed up with Sean Bowles, but I also messed up with
00:57:39Bob Hartley.
00:57:40I also messed up with not speaking about Bob Jones.
00:57:44I also messed up with not speaking about Chris Reed.
00:57:47I also messed up by not speaking about all of these other individuals.
00:57:50Is there going to be actual structural movement or is it going to be a, just another rebrand?
00:57:59I know we'll probably anger a lot of the people listening, but I see many of the leaders as victims
00:58:05of the system.
00:58:07And what I mean by that is they believe so much.
00:58:11I know some leadership who are maybe not to the same level as them, but are doing some of the
00:58:16same things.
00:58:17They really believe what it is they're preaching and they believe that they are untouchable because it's a movement by
00:58:24God.
00:58:25The problem is I strongly question the movement by God part, but when you're in that type of system, you
00:58:32make decisions that you think God's going to shield me because it's a movement by God.
00:58:37How could God not let this movement continue?
00:58:40Therefore, I'll put these people in who don't really deserve to be in leadership positions or I'll platform them in
00:58:47the middle.
00:58:49And then what happens is whenever they suddenly come to terms with the fact that God didn't really protect this
00:58:56and these were some pretty bad people, you find some, after it's too late, you find some strong repentance because
00:59:05they understand they messed up.
00:59:07They really messed up.
00:59:08So what happens is the leadership are part of the system that is failing the leadership and they're in this
00:59:17endless cycle up here at the top, not realizing that that cycle is spinning off a thousand different cycles to
00:59:24the congregation.
00:59:24So the congregation gets stuck in the same cycles of seasons, if you want to call it a season.
00:59:32And the whole problem comes back down to the system has enabled this.
00:59:36The system is what needs to reform, not the ministry, not the ministers.
00:59:41The system needs to change.
00:59:42You can't allow people to do this.
00:59:44But I knew that you would have some opinions, so I'm very glad I brought up this topic.
00:59:50And it's fascinating.
00:59:51I can think of probably 10 other similar topics that I want to get into.
00:59:56Thanks for doing this.
00:59:57Yeah, my pleasure.
00:59:58It's always great.
00:59:59Well, if you've enjoyed our show and you want more information, you can check us out on the web.
01:00:03You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:00:05For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can read Weaponized Religion from Christian Identity to
01:00:12the NAR, available on Amazon, Kindle, and Audible.
01:01:03You can find us at william-branham.org.
01:01:20For more about the dark side of the New Apostolic Reformation, you can find us at william-branham.
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